Love and Sex at LUMS 1: The Secret Love Life of LUMS Students

From Dawn Blogs

The campus of the Lahore University of Management Sciences (LUMS) is famous for being a bubble environment where risqué fashion trends are explored and high-school soap operas come to life in the midst of hijab-clad women and the bearded folk from LUMS Religious Society. To an outsider visiting LUMS, or possibly visiting Pakistan for the first time, this campus might seem at first encounter like the ideal multicultural environment akin to an ancient city-state where all live in harmony with tolerance.

However, as anyone with a deeper relationship with the campus or its student body can tell you, things aren’t so rosy at LUMS. In fact, the campus often seems divided between conservative, retro-revisionists and ultra-modern, party-hopping, next-generation liberals. Recently, what was previously a silent divide, became verbose on the LUMS campus mail system following a mass message sent out by a conservative student fed up with all the on-campus indecency she’s had to deal with.

Sent on the notable date of September 11 to the ‘General Discussion Group,’ this mail with the subject line ‘To love or not to love’ was a real ’social suicide bomb.’ The mail hit the inboxes of LUMS students and exploded into a fiery debate on public displays of affection (PDA) and sleek clothing versus religious values and cultural traditions. Since its inception, the thread has branched out into several sub-discussions, and subsequent replies from charged respondents range from traditionalists and Islamic ideologists, to ‘Class A’ revisionist hippies and devout atheists – guys, girls, freshmen, seniors, class-clowns, serious academicians alike have freely expressed themselves. So much so that it has caused many LUMS students to complain about the clogged inbox resulting from the same thread.

So what exactly is in this mail that’s so inspiring and polarising? Well, the mail starts with a confessional disclaimer where the claimant says that the goings on of the last month (possibly Ramadan?) have left her no choice but to state her disgust in an open email. She denies any religious connotations of her views and claims to just be dishing out societal critique based on cultural norms. Then the mail leads into the explosive sub-heading: Public Display of Affection.

The complainant starts by pointing at freshmen and ‘some seniors’ who have to ‘seek physical consolation from the members of opposite sex many times in a day’ on campus premises and in public sight. Then she proceeds – like one would in any good paper assignment – to back her claims with examples as evidence:

Quoting few instances: (Readers’ Discretion is advised)

1) Standing at the main entrance, a girl stands on tip of her toes and kisses a boy good bye.

2) Lying in the lawn in front of the library, a boy rolls over the girl lying down beside him and remains in this posture.

3) Sitting in the academic block, a boy constantly rubs a girl’s leg, which are already half bare, with his hand inside her capris.

After doubly bolstering her claim with photographic evidence, she turns to the conflict this kind of social interaction has with her parent’s generation, and the awkwardness some LUMS students have to face when their parents witness this debacle. She also notes the ‘credibility’ of LUMS students and the institution has been put on the line by ‘aunties who spread rumors that doubt the chastity of girls studying in LUMS.’ Citing a personal example, she says even her parents were hesitant in sending her to a place with such a questionable environment.

She goes on to refute the ‘fake hypocritical’ tolerance and liberalism put forth by ‘irreligious and uncultured people’ and fiercely argues for the rights of ‘religious, cultured, and social people.’ Interestingly, she even takes the ‘us versus them’ stance at a point signifying the extent of this expansive cultural rift within this posh college campus.

Ending her diatribe against cultural degradation, she advises policy measures to be taken up by the LUMS administration and draws out rules that outline an inter-gender code of conduct on campus, outlawing on-campus PDA and idealising an innocent return to the ‘LUMS culture’ of the olden day when the lewd and the salacious used to be hidden behind closed doors and bushes.

This e-rant has generated quite the response, opening the floodgates to a debate across campus touching on topics such as freedom, liberation, censorship, social values, multiculturalism, and the clash of civilisations, all laced with witty remarks, outlandish statements, and hyper-polar opinions. Evidently, a lot of concerned LUMS students had opinions on the matter bottled up for as long as they’ve been witnessing this campus spectacle.

Like any hotly debated topic among a group of LUMS students, the debate also takes a very theoretical twist based on the current readings assigned to a given LUMS student trying to come up with an analytical response. While people have cited Plato, Max Weber, Karl Marx, Rumi, and Muhammad Iqbal, others have pointed to the flaws inherent in western schools of thought and how their adoption represents the deterioration of eastern societies.

In one of the many replies morphing content and subject, a student addresses the newly admitted, still innocent freshmen who might be unsuspecting prey to dangerous theories and philosophies:

At LUMS, you will be bombarded with all sorts of atheistic and secular philosophies and ‘isms’. If you do not have the proper knowledge and conviction about Islam, you may fall prey to the untiring efforts of certain faculty members as well as your fellow students to misguide you.

Then the respondent conveniently takes the opportunity to steer this debate into an evangelical venture by diverting traffic to his Islamic website claimed to be providing a wealth of knowledge on religion.

‘I have sinned’ says a student in reply to the guiding light of the mail illuminated above, following with an open declaration of his disbelief:

I shave twice a week and my ‘painchas’ hang obstinately below my heels. I have a penchant for ties that resemble the Christian cross and my satanic dress code is causing me to stray far far away from the straight path. During the holy month, instead of attending Koranic recitals in the mosque, I was listening to the demonic sounds of Pink Floyd.

He follows by saying that he wasn’t like this until he ‘studied under the mischievous and deviant professors’ whose deviant theories made his moral-compass go all awry.

In an interesting turn of events, the Program Coordinator also issued a reply to the thread saying that they had been waiting for the issue to arise in public discourse so that they could take note of this and forward recommendations to the administration, prompting a possible laying down of rules that would prohibit such practices which are apparently not representative of the ‘LUMS culture.’

According to LUMS students, the administration hardly ever replies to the general comments thread. Students have apparently been complaining about malfunctioning campus utilities and the lack of certain essential facilities. A student in reply to the administration email expresses shock at the fact that this is one of the top priorities on the agenda of the LUMS administration.

With the LUMS administration now apparently bent on enforcing moral values, one wonders if an air-tight shariah-imposed zone is going to be the next ‘in-thing’ in LUMS. Perhaps the government will have to step in if public lashings are suddenly going to be enforceable on LUMS girls found with non-mehrams. And with people getting so high-headed and passionate about ‘LUMS culture,’ one is left wondering what exactly this culture is, and how you define a culture. LUMS students on the social-morality mailing thread are not far from the game, however, one LUMS student professes:

As Max Weber said, all social policy- tolerance or intolerance… from more ‘tolerant’ strands of ‘multi-culturalism’ to banning of PDAs to the banning of the Hijab (France: Liberté, égalité, fraternité)- always involves a preference of some values and rejection or relegation of others- even if pretensions are held otherwise.

So what are the guidelines that are supposed to define the parameters of this inter-campus cultural construct? Isn’t LUMS somewhat of a sample population of the country’s educated upper- and middle-class youth subsections? What is the morality of these vast spanning cultural-geographic subgroups influenced by a myriad of mass-media content ranging from cultural franchise to strict traditionalism? And, more importantly, whose job is it to determine that such and such should be the social-cultural ideals that should be respected by everyone?

LUMS must decide whether it is in fact a ‘liberal’ institution. Here, liberal does not mean the promotion of some strange brand of Bollywoodised consumer-culture. Rather, LUMS should ask whether it abides to a stance of universal cultural relativism, where all cultural behavior represents a social expression, promoting a tolerance and an intermingling of discourses to promote understanding through interaction. Or is the university in fact a ‘conservative’ institution, conservative not in the sense that it promotes the fashion of beards, rubber sandals, and high-cuffed trousers, but conservative in the sense that it wants to ‘conserve’ a certain cultural aesthetic, where it wants to shelter it from outside extravagances?

If there is actually an ‘us versus them’ situation brewing in LUMS, then this is probably true for outside of LUMS also. Perhaps instead of enforcing some crudely designed dictum to the word, the administration should take this as an opportunity to encourage debate and discussion on the topic, gather opinions of those involved or affected, and let the strength of ideas stand on their own weight like any academically responsible institution should. Perhaps a democratic path to this issue could help shed some light on the broader national, cultural and political dilemma as well.

asifakhtar80x80 Lahore-based Asif Akhtar is interested in critical social discourse as well as the expressive facets of reactive art. He is one of the schizophrenic narrators of a graphic novel and blogs at e_scape from nowher_e.

137 Comments

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137 responses to “Love and Sex at LUMS 1: The Secret Love Life of LUMS Students

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  6. This would be really funny, if it wasn’t so sad at the same time.

    It’s a college campus, for Christ’s sake… young people are going to romance:) If you don’t want to indulge in it, don’t, but don’t get all emotional about it.

    These new LUMS “maulvis” should hear the stories about what my mom and her friends at Fatima Jinnah got up during med school:)

  7. Junaid

    hahaha.

    Once again frustrated pakis trying to satisfy their lower urges and masquerading their carnal instincts as liberal/religious/freedom cock and bull story.

    By the way when I was in uni, back in Paki land, we had a similar issue.

    Read up over here on what happened

    http://sjunaidn.blogspot.com/2008/06/pak-army-is-incapable-of-running.html

    Enjoy!

  8. YLH

    Junaid, if you can’t understand how relaxed and “morally lax” environment allows for greater creativity as well as independence of thought, then I have an even lower opinion of your NUST education.

    The problem with Pakistani education is that it makes any analysis impossible…which is why people like you write and speak in absolutes like know-alls none of you are.

  9. F

    How does a morally lax environment allow for greater creativity? I would be very interested in hearing this argument.

    Perhaps greater creativity in chasing the opposite gender would be a more plausible explanation. The complainant was right: Those without proper Islamic education are the first ones to fall to flawed ideologies and isms.

    And please don’t throw the proverbial beard and hijab argument. Your ignorance is only further highlighted.

  10. YLH

    If by Islamic education you mean the rote learning that is commonplace in its name in Madrassahs and by the so called Ulema, then yes it stifles creativity. Clearly it has stifled your intellect thoroughly.

    The claim above is not an argument but a fact. You may verify it by comparing the quality of research being carried out in the institutions of higher learning in the west and in the institutions of the ummah. You’ll see it clearly.

    Creativity or learning is not a high priority for sex starved and frustrated young men in conservative homosocial societies, nor are young women brought up on a diet of shame and moral self righteousness any more conducive to ideas that may remotely be creative. The proof is in the pudding.

  11. Saad Hasan

    YLH,
    Stop BSing by pulling a fast one, comparing madressahs and their lack of original research and breakthroughs in science and technology is typical intellectual bankruptcy, a quintessential trait of secular/liberal hypocrites…you should compare the secular institutions of Pakistan, which are even more woeful in their accomplishments given their educational charter and the resources at disposal, compared to their western counterparts…

    When your infinitely more enlightened and progressive secular institution, with all their endowments, funding, resources, expensive fees, and foreign PhD instructors can’t go much beyond the “rote” learning that you’ve taken exception to, then why have a preposterious expectation of your local madressah funded by local poor and housed in a singular building imparting quranic lessons for free to match the western scientific and technological advancements…

  12. yasserlatifhamdani

    Saad mian,

    Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. Who compared what and where?

    Could you tell us what kind of research scientists at Punjab University under the Islamic regime of Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat’s student wing are doing?

  13. Hassan1657

    The whole affair is between two extremes… I wonder if there existed any moderatin, it is either Beard and Hijab self righteous Maudidists(not to forget that he was an outcast himself from the initial Islamo-political organization) or extremists the kind of Al-Fatiha group…. ?

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  15. Saad Hasan

    [EDITED for BAD LANGUAGE]

  16. ylh

    The admiration for Ataturk is something I have in common with the founding father of Pakistan, Mr. Jinnah, who considered him the greatest Musalman of the age- direct quote November 1938 interview with the press.

    But I am of a constitutionalist like Jinnah himself. I just believe in calling a spade a spade.

    And what you’ve written is just pure nonsense and hogwash.

  17. Saad Hasan

    So much for secular tolerance…post promptly removed…

  18. M

    if a person dies in a bomb attack-
    and hes not ready for death
    its unexpected
    but it comes to him
    without warning
    suddenly
    and
    he dies-
    then what?
    where does he go?
    to the grave
    then what?
    angels come and start questioning him

    and i swear they dont ask him his girlfriends name or how high his hand went up into her capri
    NO
    they ask about other things which determine whether hes to go to paradise or hell-
    People theres more to life then just following our hearts-
    greater things than love,than sex-
    more powerful,more satisfying,more peaceful-
    and the religious people feel them-
    they know-
    religion is scoffed at just as predicted in the Holy book-
    its a sign that the end of the world is near

    THE VIP’S OF THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT ARE THOSE WHO OBEY ALLAH WHEN YOUNG-FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET WHEN THERE LIMBS ARE STRONG.

  19. M

    May God make all the young of Pakistan the VIP’s
    May God guide us all

  20. YLH

    You speak with such certainty about they would or wouldn’t ask you in the grave. Have you considered the possibility that you might be completely off?

  21. Hades

    greater things than love,than sex-
    more powerful,more satisfying,more peaceful-

    Yaar, I know where you’re coming from but trust me, never do Heroin.

  22. M

    ummm
    i meant it spirtually
    its the spirtual elevation i talk about

  23. M

    ylh
    i have considered
    if u wonder about the grave
    then u shud wonder about ur birth too
    then wen ur at it
    u shud wonder about the world too
    there IS a Creator-
    so there is a judge
    we WILL be answerable for what we do
    this world didnt come into existence becoz it just did
    but because somebody created it
    and HE has an end planned too:|
    a fair one

  24. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear M,

    I just don’t understand how you know all of this.

    Surely there is a teeny tiny possibility that you’ve got it wrong.

  25. M

    um-u say
    hows it if not this then???

  26. M

    i read the quran:|
    i talk to people
    i read about converts
    i read books about religion in gerneral😐
    now u say
    what makes u say this is wrong

  27. yasserlatifhamdani

    So there isn’t even a tiny possibility that you’ve gotten it wrong?

  28. AZW

    Um.. Yassir, how dare you say M could be wrong?

    Surely, she experienced all of the VIP treatment before she was born. After all before she came into being on the earth, she was at the same place she will be afterwards as well.

    Um, you just do not know it. It has all being figured out.

    On a more serious note, the following words were found on an Assyrian tablet that was dated at 2800 BC. Read and reflect; they had it figured out even back then.

    “The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.”

  29. Ayesha

    Good post. Thanks for giving us the lowdown on the clash at LUMS. A few months ago, some people were circulating another email where female students at LUMS were under attack. The email in question had a bunch of pictures of the girls dressed in saris mostly and the sender of the email thought this was a terrible thing and must be stopped—what had the world come to, was his lament. When I showed the email to my husband, he had the best response: “what’s the problem?” he asked, “I don’t see anybody beheading anyone or blowing anyone up with a suicide jacket? Why on earth should I care about something that doesn’t affect me?” And while men who think like that just move on to the next thing in life, I bet the sender of the email pondered upon every picture. Of course the part about the Quran where it asks men “to lower their gaze” is conveniently forgotten!

  30. nolikegohome

    how bloody narrow minded leave the ppl to love and be loved as they wish.
    to hell with religious ideology. we are in 2009 not in 1400. get a life.

  31. nolikegohome

    perhaps its ok for men to hold hands and walk like faggots on campus?

  32. Ashraf Siddiqui

    I have lived all my life in the West, studied at five UK/US universities as well as worked in others institutions during the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and into 20th Century with all the free-love etc. going all around me. I tolerated this environment because I am in a region where local values are different to those of my heritage – so it didn’t bother me. But in a Muslim country with values, cultural and ideological, so different to Western notions it seems that Imran Khan is right when he calls these people ‘Brown Sahibs’. Akin to the Anglo-American saying i.e. ‘coconut – white on the inside but broun on the outside’ this label suits the modern Pakistanis (Hindustanis) of Lahore/Karachi elite perfectly. Inspired by Musharraf (a Turkish secular product) this segment of society has totally different perspective of what Muslim society should look like. Molana Usmani was right when he opined that Pakistan would turn out to be Kafristan. The adverse comments above only reinforce my view that it is better to live as a minority Muslim in majority non-Muslim society than in a Majority ‘Muslim’ nation where the prevailing values are at odds with those which its founding fathers put forward as justification for creation of an entity that would safeguard Islam. They were wrong. Opportunists want a morally neutral state for their own ends e.g. exploitation, immorality etc. in the name of progressiveness. In the past progressives called for communism/socialism whereas now this same mantra is used to back a different set of values. No doubt the internet age may be a major factor in this phenomenon emerging but other issues are also acting to confront native traditions which are at odds with ‘imported’ values: globalisation, Bollywood acting as a Trojan to reinforce @Hindustani’ culture as well as other minority communities e.g. east Punjabis/Urdu speakers. I have been at forums where some overseas Pakistanis have called for another partition i.e. creation of Pashtunistan and Baloch areas with possible federation with a new Afghanistan, an d the rest of Pakistan to return to India (MQM agenda) or stay together and negotiate a new state for their new found Western secularism. By the way I am a professor of Social Science at a mid-west state university in USA.

  33. Farm Boy!

    what if all this by Tajwar is a construct by some Islamist thug/Mullah/Ninja in disguise & a propaganda just to defame an elite school, what is the authenticity of the photoes & videos posted in her article.????
    What if some one make such a makeshift article on Madaressah!!

  34. Farm Boy!

    what if all this by Tajwar is a construct by some Islamist thug/Mullah/Ninja in disguise & a propaganda just to defame an elite school, what is the authenticity of the photoes & videos posted here.
    What if some one make such a makeshift article on Madaressah!!

  35. Farm Boy!

    what if all this by Tajwar is a construct by some Islamist Mullah in disguise & a propaganda just to defame an elite school, what is the authenticity of the photoes & videos posted here.

  36. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ashraf Siddiqui you are a typical hypocrite.

  37. Nikita

    @ylh
    are you doubting his credibility, even though he is a professor of Social Science at a mid-west state university in USA..

  38. NS

    Just because he’s a professor doesn’t mean he’s right.

  39. peace harbinger

    the problem is not that religious people or seculars are right .
    the problem is why we want to change the world using unauthorized pressure undermining personal freedom.islam is a great religion ,but it dosent mean that if somebody dosent agree on some of its doctrinal explanation by a certain sect,he should be forced to do that.
    if we think a certain thing is wrong first we should stop doing it .then u can share ur comments with others that its wrong .
    but nobody has got the right to enforce his understanding on others.if u dont want to intetract with girls fine stop dont do it.would u like if somebody forces u to interact.
    same is here .
    who knows what will happen after death.the unmistaking comments by previous author about after death stories are given with same faith by hindus -who dont belive in dat of jugement and reincarnation -who belive in -do whatever and be forgiven if u belive in jesus.so how could he be right while others like him are also too cock sure.every body has got some justification.so listen to everybody ,do what u want ,and keep away from others matter .ur not responsible for them

  40. saeed

    Rigidity in any kind and form is and should not be acceptable. I have gone through our own educational system and that of the most developed countries like Cambridge, LSE and even Boston. The stark difference between the two is that I didnt have to care about what I am wearing to the Uni and therefore neither I had to notice that who is wearing minis or shorties but was always concerned that how to complete my assignment in a creative and knowledgable way to not only get good grades but also to quench my thirst for knowledge. Bck home since there is hardly any such challenges therefore all I had to do was to care too much about what should I wear and then gaze at the IER girls at the Jamiat-dominated Punjab Uni.
    Now all of you can decide for yourself that by indulging into a debate which has no ending is just a wastage of time because to me Islam or any religion is a personal thing, its between me and the God, when I am answerable only for my deeds why should anyone else care about it and the same goes for others around me including even my blood relations. I observe Ramadan in UK or US with everything flying around me and I do it for myself not for the society so whats so wrong here that we should close everything during Ramadan, whats results we have achieved by doing this, nothing we have created a society of bigots who love to live by double standards so pls let the younger generation live the way they want, the policy makers, both religious and worldly affairs should focus on developing such policies which show the way forward by learning from the past not forcing these generations to moving to the stoneage by living in a cyber world. Pls all of you out there focus on yourself not others.

    regards n sorry if it offends anyone

  41. ITGuy

    @Ashraf Siddiqui

    Ashraf Siddiqui don’t pollute American minds with your crap theories. you should resign and come to Pakistan with your so called experience. that’s the country where people like you can get more fame.

  42. shiv

    @ saeed

    Sorry this is OT.

    Why do you say Ramadan and not Ramzan?

  43. yasserlatifhamdani

    Moosa mian… It is good stuff. Don’t decry young love.
    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  44. yasserlatifhamdani

    It is about celebrating the body and putting spiritual in the dustbin it belongs.

  45. Dolphins possess quite advanced cortical function and chimpanzees have societal behaviour based on fairly advanced intelligence, but the spiritual quest is endeavoured by humans alone.

    Yes, others, too, suspect that your leg, one leg at least, is being pulled, gently, but firmly. Just to – aah – balance things, might your attention be drawn to the delicious possibility that, absent inter-species communication, what you have stated remains moot?

  46. Chote Miyan

    Moosa,
    I bet you also know that dolphins also enjoy sex just for the heck of it. I am not sure about you, but I am pretty sure a lot of us would agree with my hypothesis that they are more intelligent than us. Live a little. C’mon.🙂

  47. Hayyer

    Do spirits interfere with hormones, or are they hormone free?
    If the body must decay the spirit might as well enjoy the hormones while they last.

  48. Chote Miyan

    Haha! Well said, Hayyer. I concur.

  49. YLH

    Has it occured to you that you are a victim of the second generation BBCD Islam … I saw the phenomenon in the US with ABCDs.
    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  50. skarlok

    @kabir
    October 3, 2009 at 10:54 am

    “…These new LUMS “maulvis” should hear the stories about what my mom and her friends at Fatima Jinnah got up during med school:)…”

    Damn I entered this thread way to late. I’m no LUMS maulvi but I’m still interested in hearing what your mom and her friends got up to during med school. Please satisfy my curiosity

  51. skarlok

    @ hayyer
    July 11, 2010 at 9:47 am

    “…If the body must decay the spirit might as well enjoy the hormones while they last…”

    yes… let the spirit enjoy the hormones before they lead to STD’s or some pregnancy

  52. skarlok

    *in the previous most I meant
    pre-marital pregnancy

  53. Hayyer

    skarlok:

    The spirit is all knowing and wise. It knows when to take precautions.

  54. Bin Ismail

    This reminds me of these exquisite lines by Faiz Ahmad Faiz:

    “Aur bhee gham hain zamaanay mein muhabbat kay siwa
    Raahatein aur bhee hain wasl ki raahat kay siwa”

    Translation:
    There are other worries too, besides the worries of love
    There are other pleasures too, other than the pleasure of union.

  55. skarlok

    @Hayyer
    July 15, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    “…The spirit is all knowing and wise. It knows when to take precautions…”

    Sorry. I didn’t realize the human spirit was all knowing and wise, no wonder the precautions it takes are so successful…

  56. skarlok

    @ Musa

    Musa Bhai. Please let these people enjoy the pleasures of the body. They have every right to do so. After all, pleasures of the body is all they have to enjoy since they can’t enjoy pleasures of the soul.

  57. Mubarak

    @yasserlatifhamdani
    July 10, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    “Moosa mian… It is good stuff. Don’t decry young love.”

    Shall we not differentiate between young love and young lust

  58. Mubarak

    @AZW
    December 10, 2009 at 2:27 am

    “…On a more serious note, the following words were found on an Assyrian tablet that was dated at 2800 BC. Read and reflect; they had it figured out even back then.

    “The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.” … ”

    I do believe there world has come to an end a long time ago.

  59. Hayyer

    Mubarak:

    “Shall we not differentiate between young love and young lust”.

    Who-the government? One person’s lust is another’s love. Society is about managing lust.

  60. Bade Miyan

    Moosa,
    I think you were too young to appreciate all the pleasures that you have mentioned, and I believe you are too young to expound all the religious mambo-jumbo that you let off at the slightest opportunity. I have had an opportunity to interact with you on the soul and religious stuff, and the only reason I stopped was because your arguments became more and more bizarre.

    “I’ve probably lived more than most people here”

    Don’t assume that so readily. As some country singer famously said, ” you can never have too much fun.”

    If people want to have fun, why be so judgmental. To each his own. For some people, their religion is enjoying the guilty pleasures. You and I may not agree with that but then who knows the truth.

  61. YLH

    Skarlok, Musa,

    Good that you agree… But musa bhai please don’t tell skarlok which sect of Islam you belong to… This affinity of the souls shall end quite rapidly. He will do tauba for calling you bhai.

    Meanwhile those you condemn as nave hormone driven fools are the only ones who also congregate in liberty for candle lit vigils for attacks on your mosq..hmm..places of worship.

    The problem with you religious types is that you exaggerate the importance of a non-existent entity : the soul.

  62. YLH

    Btw congratulations … Pakistan topped the list in “sexy” searches. The new name is “Pornistan”. What do you wanna bet most of the searches came not from LUMS grads but the socially unfree PU grads.

    There is a direct link bw social freedom and intellectual freedom. On socially free campuses much less time is spent obsessing over sex.

    Pakistan’s lack of social freedom has resulted it to top the world’s list of porn obsessed countries.

  63. Moosa

    (deleted)

  64. YLH

    Who are you fooling? I went to boarding school in England. What happens in LUMS is not 1/100th of what goes on in England.

    LUMS produces first rate scholars. The next nobel prize winner in Pakistan will come from LUMS and not from the sex starved Punjab University.

    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  65. YLH

    Erratum: boarding summer school lest there be any confusion I went to Harrow or Eton.
    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  66. Moosa

    (deleted)

  67. YLH

    Nonsense. The summer school I went was a co-ed school and I was in A Levels at the time …and I saw first hand the culture at University of Bath and University of London. I have friends who went to Oxford, Cambridge and Warwick… All of them describe a scene quite at variance to your ridiculous claims.

    When Salam went to PU and GC it was not sex starved or religiously bigoted … LUMS for your information did not exist in Salam’s time. Had it been Salam would be teaching at LUMS school of Physics recently started.

    No need to continuously make up stories.
    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  68. Bade Miyan

    Moosa,
    You should read about Ibn-Sina and his daily routine. Sexual freedom doesn’t lead to intellectual freedom but absence of sexual freedom does lead to intellectual stagnation. Abdus Salam may have been sexually modest, but I can give you a list of high achievers who enjoyed sex as much as they enjoyed their work.
    As for my comment about your age, well, it’s quite obvious. By the way, what is wrong with homosexuality?

  69. Bade Miyan

    Plus, sexually satisfied people rarely go out and blow up people. A good round of sex releases beneficial endorphins or some stuff like that, which makes you overall positive and happy.

    I am actually quite surprised that you found University of London campus totally devoid of stuff like that. I guess, maybe, it’s the weather.

  70. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    I went to boarding school in England. What happens in LUMS is not 1/100th of what goes on in England.

    And I presume you wud have been in the thick of things…….

    Musa bhai,

    I have no idea what happens in boys’ boarding schools

    I am told that what happens there also happens in equal measures in madarsas as well.

    Regards

  71. YLH

    Nonsense. Most British Pakistanis live in ghettos. You probably know jackshit about London UK or the west. You probably lived in your little closed knit Ahmadiyya Muslim community in Luton. I think East is East applies 100 times more on Burqah clad Ahmadi Muslims than Pakistanis in general.

    The point is that social permissiveness of the west allows for people to be free of god damn sex obsessions.

    The UK universities were atleast 10 times more liberal and permissive than the US and that is saying something.

    For example a couple under a tree in the US would atmost hold hands and kiss…a couple in UK would be on top of each other with the boy’s hands up the girl’s blouse.

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  72. Bade Miyan

    Moosa,
    “My only point is that usually this behaviour is practised privately, most British people think it’s in poor taste to do all this publicly”

    Well, that’s sad. US is better that way.

  73. YLH

    Bade miyan…

    Moosa mian is making up nonsense. I have seen the permissiveness of British society first hand.

    Moosa mian is merely a British Asian … Closed to all “perfidy” of British society.

  74. YLH

    UK campuses are 10 times more liberal than US campuses. But what can you do if certain British Asians are so closed in their own little ghettos.

  75. YLH

    Ofcourse it is the “progressive” Pakistanis of the kind that you denounce who stand up for Salam and the Ahmadis.

    Bigots you support would rather kill you. This is what you don’t understand.

    Ahmadi Muslims like you are equally culpable in the dystopia Pakistan has become.

    Keep denouncing people on count of your stupid ignorance and religious closemindedness.

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  76. Bade Miyan

    Ylh,
    Well, I was wondering, because the stories that I have heard about the UK campuses were so different from what Moosa is telling. I guess if he lived a bit in the sub continent, he is going to pine for the same “decadent” living. It’s easy to sermonize from a distance.

  77. Moosa

    (Edited) on Mr Moosa’s request

  78. Bade Miyan

    Moosa,
    That the renowned Abdus Salaam derived his inspiration from Quran has nothing to do with your implied hypothesis that spirituality leads to greater intellectual success. Genius is hard to define. As I said, do read about Ibn Sina or Feynman or Satre. In modern times there have been too many irreligious or agnostic people who have attained greater renown. You are an arrant fool for subscribing to such nonsensical theories. I thought you were younger but that at 38 you are still holding on to such asinine theories makes me regret at wasting my time debating with you.

  79. Moosa

    “As far as I am concerned the Sunni-Ahmadi jhagra is the internal matter of two equally stupid religiously narrow-minded fanatical groups and both of these groups can go to hell.”

    EDITED.

  80. YLH

    I have always felt that if Salam was not limited by religious islamic dogma he would have gone down as a greater scientist than Einstein.

    Moosa miyan,

    When your third caliph was cosying upto Zulfikar Ali Bhutto didn’t he know that Bhutto was a man who drank too much and was very socially liberal?

    You are basically a liar like any Mullah or a religious fellow. You’ve made up a lie about UK universities which you’ve unable to substantiate except that we are supposed to accept your word for it.

    It is just that it is contrary to idea of statehood that I wish to see in my homeland that I am forced to speak for even crooks cranks and madmen like yourself. It is entirely because I feel it is contrary to principles of justice and fairplay… otherwise I am sure if crooks like you were in the majority you would be bigoted as the bigoted majority that holds Pakistan hostage.

    A young Ahmadi man told me this a long time ago. He told me the entire cause was worthless. I didn’t believe him. With an Islamo-fascist bigot and lying crook like you I am beginning to think he was right. Now you are not welcome to post here anymore. Get lost. Go back to your little god-obsessed life and leave us the fuck alone.

  81. YLH

    Can you explain to us why are all Ahmadi women in Burqahs like the Taliban? They are one and the same…you and your oppressors. You are just slightly more educated.

  82. Moosa

    “That the renowned Abdus Salaam derived his inspiration from Quran has nothing to do with your implied hypothesis that spirituality leads to greater intellectual success.”

    EDITED (YLH)

  83. Moosa

    EDITED! – YLH

  84. Moosa

    EDITED.

    (Consider me Raza Rumi’s spokesman. Stop posting here. -YLH)

  85. Moosa

    EDITED (intellectual is a rather large word for someone who believes in fairy tales like you do- sincerely YLH)

  86. YLH

    Very easy indeed for the head of the Qadiyani jamaat to abandon 4 million of his followers to “god” and sit in cosy comforts of London.

    Even easier for two bit crooks in London to abuse those who actually try and do something for the Ahmadis in Pakistan.

    Belief in fairytales is most unfortunate.

  87. Mubarak

    @Hayyer
    July 16, 2010 at 8:30 am

    “Mubarak:

    “Shall we not differentiate between young love and young lust”.

    Who-the government? One person’s lust is another’s love.”

    I was not implying the government take any steps what so ever. I was just stating my opinion that whats happening at LUMS or London or any other instituition is driven more by lust than love, which is evident in the quick break-ups that occur soon after these relationships are established. Therefore, it should be called “young lust” rather than “young love”, Just calling a spade a spade.

    “Society is about managing lust.”

    Yes certain societal norms are about managing lust. So do you agree that lust should be managed at a societal level? I think we differ in regards to how much of lust should be managed and how to execute that management. I’m of the opinion that people should be discreet enough not to show PDA like some of the things mentioned in this article. It is as annoying as people whos start praying in random undesignated places like isles of an airplane.

    Also, I think unmanaged lust in society leads to certain social problems. One of these problems is the rising rate of divorce and very high rates of infidelity during marriage in the west. I’m not saying the world adopt a “beard and burqa” society. Neither do I support the current extremes of promiscious behavior pervading the west and entering the east.
    As a believer in the Holy Quran I do believe in following its guidelines regarding this management of lust at a personal level. If a certain society wants to follow the Holy Quran they will try to adopt the societal level teachings regarding lust management found therein. If you do not follow then you may have different standards and guidelines for managing lust at a personal and societal level. But I think we both agree that lust should be managed.

  88. Mubarak

    @YLH
    July 16, 2010 at 11:25 am

    “When your third caliph was cosying upto Zulfikar Ali Bhutto didn’t he know that Bhutto was a man who drank too much and was very socially liberal?”

    Bhutto’s drinking habits and liberalism were his personal tastes. Of course, his liberalism became questionable with his tilt towards the Saudi-backed pan-Islamism and his novel Second Amendment. Hazrat Mirza Nasir Ahmad, Khalifatul Masih III decided to support Bhutto, primarily for one reason.

    In 1970, two major political forces were surfacing in then West Pakistan (now Pakistan) – PPP and Jamaate Islami. East Pakistan was visibly slipping out of the federation. Among the parties that enjoyed a sound vote-bank in what was to remain as Pakistan, there was only one party that believed in Pakistan – the PPP. So for any patriot, that was then, virtually the only choice. Let us not forget that JI was from day 1, opposed to the very existence of Pakistan and the ML was completely in shambles.

    @YLH
    July 16, 2010 at 11:27 am

    “Can you explain to us why are all Ahmadi women in Burqahs like the Taliban? They are one and the same…you and your oppressors. You are just slightly more educated.”

    Firstly, the Ahmadis do not at all believe in compelling others to wear the burqa. For Ahmadi ladies, the burqa goes little beyond personal discipline and personal modesty. Secondly, the Ahmadi burqa is a million times more elegant looking thing than its Taliban counterpart. Thirdly, not all Ahmadi ladies wear the burqa. African Ahmadi ladies wear the African style outer covering and Indonesian Ahmadi ladies have their own. European and American Ahmadi ladies have their own.

    @YLH
    July 16, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    “Very easy indeed for the head of the Qadiyani jamaat to abandon 4 million of his followers to “god” and sit in cosy comforts of London.”

    The Khalifa has followers all over the world, not just in Pakistan. He has not abandoned anybody. He has entrusted them not to any ‘god’ but to Allah, just as a father would entrust his children to Allah. The Khalifa’s responsibilities require him to preach and teach – something he is legally barred from doing in Pakistan, so under the present circumstances living in Pakistan, simply is not an option.

  89. Bin Ismail

    @ Hayyer (July 16, 2010 at 8:30 am)

    “…..Who – the government? One person’s lust is another’s love. Society is about managing lust…..”

    Well said. State and Society must be distinguished from each other. When State assumes the role of Society, coercion is born.

  90. YLH

    Mubarik sb,

    All I am saying is stop waiting for Allah. Allah is not enough. You have plenty of good Ahmadi Muslims but lying down and playing dead should not be option.

    If Ahmadi Muslims believe in god but also tie their camel, perhaps the country they helped found can be a better place.
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  91. Mubarak

    YLH sb,

    For Ahmadis, Allah is sufficient. There are no two opinions on this. As for tying the camel, which refers to material effort, may I remind you that Yahya and Niazi were not Ahmadis. Iftikhar was. The only general of the Pakistan Army who fought till death was an Ahmadi. We have served our country like men. We have watered its soil with our sweat, tears and blood.

  92. YLH

    How can rational people be so blinded by faith.

    may I remind all Ahmadis …you are preaching to the choir.

    But no one can help those who can’t help themselves.

  93. Mubarak

    @YLH

    Trust me, we’re rational and trust me we rely on God and trust me our faith is not blind. Our faith is supported both by experience and rationality.

  94. YLH

    What is rational about belief in the unknown?

  95. Bin Ismail

    @Mubarak (July 18, 2010 at 3:01 am)

    True. May I add that while Pakistani Ahmadis have always been prepared to patriotically serve their country, people at the helm of affairs have not always been as eager to receive the services, specially post 1974. Another aspect that deserves to be mentioned is that it is not only in Pakistan that Ahmadis remain patriotic and law-abiding, an Ahmadi will always be loyal to his country whichever it may be.

    @ YLH (July 18, 2010 at 10:15 pm)

    Valid question. The term “Eeman bil ghaib” could perhaps be more appropriately translated as “belief in the unseen”, because even as the unknown becomes known, it remains unseen. It is unseen in the sense that it remains imperceivable to the five physical senses. Take for instance the case of the Gravitational Force. The force itself is imperceivable to the five senses, but its effects can be appreciated. Hence, it would perfectly rational to accept the existence of the Gravitational Force inspite of the fact that it belongs to the world of the unseen.

    If an individual or a community has experienced the effect of God, and experienced it repeatedly, even without having physically beheld His countenance, believing in Him would be perfectly in line with rationality.

  96. YLH

    Hardly but let us forget our religious beliefs or lack thereof … Isn’t the saying “trust in God but tie your camel”?

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  97. YLH

    Bin ismail,

    This reminded me of a book I have published by the Jamaat Ahmaddiya’s own publishing body … I would have to see the name but is generally against Rushdie … I can understand the attack on Rushdie after all the attack on Rushdie seems to be next to Kalima to prove one’s Muslimness… But what got my goat was the Ahmadi author’s flowing praise for General Zia’s Islamization.

    Does the Ahmadiyya community like indulging in acts of collective self pain?

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  98. bciv

    @bin ismail

    Take for instance the case of the Gravitational Force. The force itself is imperceivable to the five senses, but its effects can be appreciated.

    try standing right in the path of a heavy enough free-falling object and then tell me if all of your five sense failed to appreciate the force.

    as a general rule, examples are exempt from dissection. but not such poor ones, i am afraid.

  99. skarlok

    @bciv
    July 19, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    “try standing right in the path of a heavy enough free-falling object and then tell me if all of your five sense failed to appreciate the force.”

    I have another proposition for you bciv. Stand right in the path of a heavy enough free-falling object and then tell me if your were able to see the force pulling the ball and then tell me if your five senses failed to appreciate the “effect” of the force. Maybe the impact will fix the processor behind your five senses

  100. bciv

    >I have another proposition for you bciv

    you have just reproduced the original proposition. calling it “another” does not make it different. both sight and touch are amongst the five senses. you cannot ‘see’ air either. but you can feel (ie ‘touch’) it. so what? calling it the “effect” of air does not change the fact that you use your sense of ‘touch’ to know it’s there.

  101. Bin Ismail

    @YLH (July 19, 2010 at 8:10 am)

    The liberals are indeed the most promising and hope-inspiring segment of the Pakistani population. They give reason to believe that this nation is not dead. Hats off to the liberals – all the liberals of Pakistan.

    Being liberal does not mean being anti-religion. It means not being judgmental. It means being tolerant and accommodative. It means celebrating diversity. It means respecting the viewpoint of the other even in the face of difference. It means denouncing and eschewing extremism and fanaticism. It means keeping religion out of politics and politics out of religion. My best wishes and sincerest prayers for the liberals of Pakistan.

    Regarding the book you’ve mentioned, I wouldn’t be in a position to comment on it without precise knowledge of its contents. Frankly, I fail to understand how an Ahmadi would praise Zia’s obnoxious policies after being their victim himself.

    By the way you’re right about the hadees “Trust in God but tie the knee of the camel”. I believe Ahmadis are doing both.

    Best Regards.

  102. Bin Ismail

    @ bciv (July 19, 2010 at 5:47 pm)

    “…..as a general rule, examples are exempt from dissection. but not such poor ones, i am afraid…..”

    Would it be alright if I myself dissected the example I put forth?

    The actual Force of Gravitation – the force itself – is entirely imperceivable to the five physical senses. Gravity can neither be seen, nor heard, nor tasted, nor smelled, nor touched – the force itself. The impact with an object moving under the “effect” of Gravity, can indeed be felt by the sense of touch, but please bear in mind that it would be the “effect of gravity”, not Gravity itself. Gravity itself would remain imperceivable to the five senses.

    So, we accept the existence of Gravity inspite of the fact that we cannot perceive the actual force itself, and we consider it perfectly rational to accept its existence.

  103. YLH

    I’ll get you the name of the book, author, publisher, date by tonight.

  104. bciv

    thank you, bin ismail. only if these five senses, or any of them, could exist in a body with no mass… however, a body with mass (and a sense of ‘touch’) would find it difficult to escape the utter perceptibility of gravity. the other relevant problem with examples – even good ones – is that they are supposed to support an argument. they make little sense, if any, when the argument itself is absent.

  105. Tilsim

    @ bciv @bin ismail
    The strict concept of the traditional 5 senses is getting a bit outdated.

    The inner ear has gravity receptors.

    Here is what the Encyclopedia B says:

    Because of the constancy of its magnitude and direction, gravity is most suitable in providing animals with cues to their position in space. The sense organs involved (statoreceptors) usually have the structure of a statocyst, a fluid-filled vesicle containing one or more sandy or stonelike elements (statoliths). Sensory cells in the wall of the vesicle have hairs that are in contact with the statolith, which always weighs vertically down. Hence, depending on the animal’s position, different sense cells will be stimulated in statocysts with loose statoliths.

  106. Bin Ismail

    bciv & Tilsim:

    Right. The loose statoliths make physical contact with the hairs inside the vesicle. This physical impact stimulates the statoreceptors and impulses are transmitted to the brain. The brain deciphers the impulses and an awareness of the “effect of gravity” is aroused. Thus what is perceived is the “effect of gravity” – not “gravity” itself. Yet, it is rational to infer that gravity exists.

    Whether it’s gravity or magnetism, in both cases we are talking about forces – forces that themselves remain imperceptible but their effects can be perceived by human senses. In any case, accepting the existence of gravitational force or magnetic force, on the grounds of perceiving the effects of these forces, cannot be categorized as irrational.

  107. Tilsim

    @ Bin Ismail
    “Thus what is perceived is the “effect of gravity” – not “gravity” itself.”

    I think you will find that the other senses work the same way.

  108. bciv

    @bin ismail

    if i may be permitted to put two simple questions to you:

    1. would you consider it rational not to accept the existence of gravity?

    2. would you consider it irrational not to accept the existence of god?

    regards

  109. Bin Ismail

    @Tilsim

    The point I’m trying to make is that there are several entities – not just God – whose existence we are prepared to rationally accept, despite the fact that they are directly imperceivable to human physical perception.

    @ bciv

    1. Yes. I consider it perfectly rational to accept the existence of gravity.

    2. No. I do not consider it irrational to accept the existence of God.

    Regards.

  110. Tilsim

    @ bin Ismail

    “Whether it’s gravity or magnetism, in both cases we are talking about forces – forces that themselves remain imperceptible but their effects can be perceived by human senses.”

    The nature of gravity is not fully understood. I believe that there is still arguments about how this ‘force at a distance’ works and the theory of relativity does not fully reconcile to Newtonian physics. Both theories exist and are rational in themselves. However rationally speaking both can’t be right at the same time, or can they and we just don’t know why as yet?

    I understand what Bin Ismail is trying to say. Many people have a perception of divinity or the unseen. It’s very real to them – I have it myself. To paraphrase, perhaps this automatic perception of divinity that many people have is a sort of effect of a force at a distance. It may be that some of us have receptors that can sense it where is others can’t. We make sense of this experience through faith and religion.

    However, in the absence of an observable construct and one that cannot be tested, I am still unclear how belief in the unseen fits with the definition of rational as it is understood by science at present. This may be a limitation of science but it does not make scientific method invalid.

  111. Tilsim

    “and the theory of relativity does not fully reconcile to Newtonian physics.”

    Sorry about this. I meant to say does not fully as yet reconcile to quantum theory.

  112. bciv

    @bin ismail

    i asked: “1. would you consider it rational not to accept the existence of gravity?”

    you replied:” 1. Yes.”

    but you added that you also “consider it perfectly rational to accept the existence of gravity.”

    my second question was: “2. would you consider it irrational not to accept the existence of god?”

    your response was: “2. No.”

    and again you added that, at the same time, you “do not consider it irrational to accept the existence of God.”

    so, you consider both accepting and denying the existence of gravity to be equally and perfectly rational. the same goes for believers and atheists, in your view.

  113. bciv

    The point I’m trying to make is that there are several entities – not just God – whose existence we are prepared to rationally accept, despite the fact that they are directly imperceivable to human physical perception.

    tilsim has already responded to this.

    in science, fact and theory are two different things. scientific proof goes beyond and is far more rigourous than the so-called five senses. to forward a theory is a perfectly valid and useful scientific exercise. but no proof = no fact.

  114. bciv

    @Tilsim

    However, in the absence of an observable construct and one that cannot be tested, I am still unclear how belief in the unseen fits with the definition of rational as it is understood by science at present. This may be a limitation of science but it does not make scientific method invalid.

    do we really have any other option? while it can’t be tested, it remains in the realm of theory and not fact.

  115. Tilsim

    @bciv

    I agree.

  116. Bin Ismail

    @bciv (July 20, 2010 at 8:33 pm)

    Thank you indeed for pointing out my oversight. I somehow, and I assure you, inadvertently missed the “not” in both your questions. My fault. Sorry. Let me redo that:

    Q#1. would you consider it rational not to accept the existence of gravity?
    Answer: I consider it perfectly rational to accept the existence of gravity.

    Q#2. would you consider it irrational not to accept the existence of god?
    Answer: I do not consider it irrational to accept the existence of God.

  117. bciv

    @bin ismail

    thanks for redoing that. you have once again answered questions that i did not ask. it seems you wish to leave unanswered the questions i asked.

  118. Bin Ismail

    @ bciv

    I hope this is acceptable:

    Q#1: would you consider it rational not to accept the existence of gravity?
    Answer: No. I would not consider it rational not to accept the existence of gravity.

    Q#2: would you consider it irrational not to accept the existence of god?
    Answer: Yes. I would consider it irrational not to accept the existence of God.

    Regards.

  119. Tilsim

    @ bciv

    Are you posing that these questions are related or infact not related and as such are you trying to find a logic error – I am trying to see what you are trying to deduce but finding it difficult? Look forward to seeing your analysis of the result.

    Here is my take. The term rational means derived from reason. It can be a confusing term and different value judgements can be placed on it. It does not automatically follow that for a premise to be rational it needs scientific proof. There are different forms of reasoning. Two methods of note are deductive and inductive reasoning.

    People use inductive reasoning to find what is a probable truth, which may not always be the actual truth. As I understand the term in a limited way is that inductive reasoning is based on deriving conclusions from observations alone. Of course we use this method of reasoning all the time. They are great for establishing premises.

    Scientific methods are excellent tools for validating premises (as they involve rigorous testing). Once proven one can claim something to be absolutely true. However in reality there are limitations. For example, it’s difficult to eliminate inherent bias completely and that fact alone can mean that perhaps absolute truth is unknowable.

    Deductive reasoning would have it as follows:

    I would say that Bin Ismail is saying:

    1) The effect of Gravity can be perceived; it is rational to believe in gravity

    2) The effect of God can be perceived;

    3) It is rational to believe in God.

    Are you saying?

    1) The existence of gravity can be proven scientifically; it is rational to believe this

    2) The existence of God cannot be proven scientifically;

    3) It is irrational to believe in God.

    If so would it be fair to say that the first premise may be wrong because rational does not always imply the necessity for scientific proof. If so this would invalidate the argument.

  120. bciv

    @bin ismail

    this is perfectly acceptable. many thanks.

  121. bciv

    @Tilsim

    i was trying my best not to mix empirical with rational. i saw a lack of consistency and wished to investigate it a bit further. for me, the inconsistency is there, mainly, because (as i pointed out earlier) “they[ie examples in support of an argument] make little sense, if any, when the argument itself is absent.”

    even a rational rather than empirical test must completely deal with both the nature of the cause and of the effect, as well as clearly and consistently establishing the link between the two. saying that one effect is similar to another effect (or even cause-and-effect) is a) incomplete, and b) only an example (strictly speaking, not an argument).

    i am aware that this is not the forum – not least because it can offer neither the space nor time – for the main argument to be produced and debated. that, i presume, is the reason why no actual argument has been put forth here.

  122. bciv

    it’s difficult to eliminate inherent bias completely and that fact alone can mean that perhaps absolute truth is unknowable.

    that is a possibility, may be even a probable danger, but it is only a fact if and when scientifically proven. the proposition that it can never be proven also requires proof.

    there is a difference between ‘keeping an open mind’ and ‘doubting’ proven scientific facts. what does “absolute” mean? non-empirical reason and rhetoric is what cannot claim to be the absolute argument. (internal) consistency is not absolute logic.

    scientific observations are objective till shown to be biased (in the method or in its definition of or effect on what is observed). scientific facts are absolute, till they are proven not to be.

  123. Tilsim

    Ok, I am not sure I totally understood the comment so please excuse me if I am just talking at a tangent. We are getting into the nature of scientific proof. According to Karl Popper, the only way science can support a hypothesis is to try to show that it is false through testing the scientific evidence using scientific method. No idea is proven correct, just that false ideas are discarded. However the more the idea stands up to tests of falsification, the more it is considered to be correct. Eventually, it’s called a theory.

    In science there is no such thing as absolute proof (absolute certainty). Scientific ‘proof’ is probabilistic. If we remember from science at school: rejection of the null hypothesis at less than 5% probability, the somewhat arbitrary (but reasonable) nature of this cutoff.

    If you have absolute to mean objective then I think you are correct. I accept the scientific evidence on that basis. I therefore also keep an open mind.

    I was sloppy with the language in my previous comment. I should have said that “problem alone…” instead of that “fact alone…”. Thank you for picking that up. However I hope that you will agree that in everyday language, a fact is a statement known to be true through direct observation.

    Bias is indeed a serious threat in scientific experimentation. That is why we repeat the experiments over and over again. However even with this we only arrive at a very high probability (not certainty) that we understand something. Given the high probability, fair enough if you say that it is unreasonable to doubt.

    The best (only) approach in science is interpretation of the facts in a probabilistic way. Our frame of reference is science should not be ‘proofs’ or certainty of knowledge.

    Maths and philosophy are interesting disciplines because with the rules and criteria of logic, only here does proof actually have an absolute meaning.

  124. Mubarak

    @ YLH
    I along with bin Ismail and Musa would also thank you and laud you for the bold support you have shown for the Ahmadi Muslims whenever we have been under attack. We also stand for justice and equality for all citizens of Pakistan. We welcome the work you have done to keep pakteahouse a very enlightening and intellectual forum for discussion and dialogue. I would also like to quell some of the anger that Musa may have ignited within you. As debates sometimes get heating people may start becoming a little judgmental and testy. I apologize if that is what ignited you. I apologize if he was being judgmental and sermonizing. With all that said, I do think it is a little unjust to delete all of Musa’s posts on this thread as it goes against the principles of open discussion on pakteahouse.
    @YLH
    “What is rational about belief in the unknown?”

    As bin Ismail has stated, our belief is in the “unseen”. We believe Allah created us and has revealed himself to humanity many times. What makes us Ahmadi’s in the first place is that we believe Allah revealed himself again to Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, who named our community as Ahmadi. The traditions of the saints and enlightened scholars that have passed in the muslim umma and within our own Ahmadi traditions also strengthens our belief. An example of a saint was Data Ganj Baksh who’s final resting place was so barbarically attacked not too long ago.

    @YLH July 19, 2010 at 8:03 am
    “Isn’t the saying “trust in God but tie your camel”?”
    As Ahmadi’s I think we are following both messages of this maxim. We have tied the camel with the strongest rope within our means. Please tell us what you are implying we do. We will not break the law however. I’m an Ahmadi of Pakistani origin living in the USA. Here our leadership is constantly urging us to write to our representatives regarding the situation in Pakistan and put pressure on the Pakistani government. We constantly appeal to humanitarian organizations to put pressure on the Pakistani government. We ourselves try to put pressure on the Pakistani government within all legal means. As far as our own security is concerned we have been making increasing accommodations for that as well within our mosques and homes. Let me put to your attention that the 2 terrorists caught in the Lahore attacks were by the worshippers themselves and not the police. We have links with the police that warn us of impending threats and we take the best measures according to our means.

  125. bciv

    @Tilsim

    I agree with what you have said. all i meant to say was that science’s lack of claim of infallibility and it’s constant endeavour to keep an open mind is to be lauded as a quality that elevates its status, not used to trash it as being inferior, somehow.

    because science does not claim a fact to be absolute is sometimes used to claim that the absolute fact is something else, unbeknownst to science. science is the best method we have of discovering and establishing facts. in that sense, it’s absolute enough for me.

    (maths is of course a ‘man-made’ science. it is as good as it is consistent. the fewer unknown inconsistencies it has, the better it would work as a tool – ie applied science. it is a tool capable of simulating known and as yet unknown patterns whether or not occurring in the physical world.)

  126. mubarak

    I think the debate has gotten overly complicated regarding scientific proof and its application to establishing God’s existence. I don’t think bin Ismail was trying to prove God’s existence scientifically. I’m not even sure God’s existence can be proved based on the proposed scientific methods. One of his points was just because we can’t see God’s physical countenance directly does not disqualify his existence. The other point was that in our community we have repeatedly felt the “hand of God” so for many people its rational (not scientific) to accept God. Here I use the world rational in the sense of reasonable judgment and not some scientific definition.
    Let me propose another angle to this problem. If we truly get into a very low level debate regarding the use of the scientific method to prove or disprove the existence of God then I think the universe will probably come to an end before an acceptable theory is established. It will definitely not happen within our lifetime for sure. Since my own judgment, predilections, and reasoning coupled with these “experiences” or “effects” of God that bin ismail has mentioned has led me to accept God. I cannot spend my life waiting for an acceptable “proof” or repeatable scientific measurement on God to be established. On the other hand time well spent for me would be to assume God exists and search for God based on the so called “revelations” of God to humanity that so many noble personalities have claimed.

  127. shazbuk1

    What all dee fuss bee about.
    Few years back there was an accounts teacher who was busy molesting female students. This went on for a while until the po gals plucked up the courage to submit a formal complaint of harrassment. Then it took senior forever for senior management to relieve—–(name edited by the moderator) of his duties and kick him out.
    By the way he runs a successful training company for preparation of the CFA qualification.

    Note to the commentator: Do not use this forum for airing libellous statements against other individuals. (AZW, Moderator, PTH).

  128. bumber claart

    Clearly the university doesn’t have enough to worry about!! Clearly a stupid university in a similar country

  129. shazbuk1

    moderator – try saying please – don’t they teach you any manners in your country?

  130. i beleive any university should be free, as YLH said creativity needs freedom, but freedom should not be missused

    boys and girls can go out and do their thing but in public they should be a little more careful, hold hands ,hug ect but smooching ect in private pls

    so everybody is happy, no hurt feeling,

  131. Sarah

    Give me a freaking break!!! I’ve spent 4 yrs in LUMS graduated a year before this ‘girl’ unleashed the debate on mass uni-mail. Not only are her claims highly exaggerated, I feel that people who have not experienced LUMS, do not have adequate information about the ‘culture’ to comment so judgmentally on it. Live it before you can comment on it. LUMS is a place of academic learning and a great place to learn not only from professors with a whole range of views but also your peers. I have always marvelled at the vibrant mix of students and the healthy diversity of opinions and experiences they bring to LUMS and that which they take from LUMS into their lives later. It is very unfortunate that some people refuse to throw away a bigoted lens through which they stubbornly choose to view the world and judge everyone around them.

  132. summer

    wot a panic to find dis youth derailing fom its path…..

  133. I am glad that LUMS is a vibrant and sexy campus. When I attended Government College (1953-57), Lahore there was not a single really-really good looking female either at GC or at the PU-campus. However, I still recall a stunningly beautiful jamadarni who lived in the servant quarters behind The Quadrangle. Now, she was so great a beauty, that I seriously pondered over the designer-prospect of deliberately flunking in my FA so that I could invest another year at the Quadrangle. I failed in that aesthethic innoVation. So it could be realized that Kamal_________ had the honor of being my classmate.
    I hope THAT plentiful phone calls are now unleashed upon the GC University demanding whether Make-up artwist Geoffrey in fact EVER VISITED that campus. Suchlike switching would add some masala eXcitement to the boring BUREAUCRATIC loneliness of the Registrar there; followed by bionic breast-beating that geoffrey cannot spell even ‘artist’. All this is kosher while Pakistan Steel Mills and PIA are being looted blue by illiterate miscellany wiuth immunity and impunity.

    NB: I wonder, when Rome is burning, why are the pond-frogs HOOKED onto such silly trivia while the country is being wiped out through corrupt Multaniker personnel and Sinned practices…