In 1953, Khawaja Nazimuddin’s Muslim League Government at the center was brought down after sufficient unrest was created by Majlis-e-Ahrar (a party which had opposed the creation of Pakistan tooth and nail) calling itself “Majlis-e-Amal” as part of the grand “Anti-Ahmaddiya” riots. The whole scheme was secretly backed by Punjab CM Mumtaz Daultana who wanted to get rid of the soft-spoken Khawaja Nazimuddin from East Pakistan. Their main demands were that Ahmadis be declared Non-muslim and Pakistan’s foreign minister Zafrullah Khan (an old associate of Jinnah and one of the authors of the Lahore Resolution) be fired. That Zafrullah was the leading voice for Palestine and other Afro-Asian independence movements at the UN added another foreign angle to this.
A similar situation was created in 1974 with the aim and objective to bring down Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s PPP government. PPP then tried to outflank the Mullahs by going ahead and ex-communicating Ahmadis altogether. Here I’d like to appeal to Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif. Nawaz has proved himself to be a changed man and a patriot with his actions on 15th March and 16th March. Though born out of Zia-ist dictatorship, the PML-N is now finally a democratic party with roots in the people. It does not need to de-stabilize the PPP by resorting to such tactics. PML-N can play an appropriate role as a center-right party in a two party system without pandering to the crazies of all kinds. So stop associating yourselves with crooks, cranks and mad men.
Pakistan is a dangerous point in its history. We need a united front against the forces of religious extremism. Remember these forces had opposed the creation tooth and nail and had called it Kafiristan then. PML-N has an important role in this fight. It must purge itself of Maududian forces within itself, distance itself from terrorism and fanaticism. All three national parties- the PPP, PML-Q and PML-N must stand for Jinnah’s secular democratic and egalitarian Pakistan and they must do so NOW clearly and consistently! If this United front is not achieved, Pakistan ka khuda hi hafiz hai.
Tuhafzai Khatmai Nubawat (TKN) claims to be a worldwide religious organization to protect the finality of the Prophet hood of Muhammad (SAW). However, this organization has done little to protect the name of Islam’s beloved Prophet. Instead, TKN engages in activities that are diametrically opposed to his teachings of peace and tolerance. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community(AMC), a peaceful global religious community, has been the chief target of TKN’s unwarranted, inhumane and violent terrorist activities.
Since the enactment of Anti-Ahmadiyya laws in 1984, successive Pakistani regimes have implicitly supported TKN’s extremist and harmful activities. Now Pakistan, as leader of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), is doing their bidding through UNHRC to curtail “freedom of expression”. All of the terrorist groups within Pakistan have brought this country to the forefront of the global arena. Pakistan has been deemed the “most dangerous country of the world.” The world community needs to wake up and see the atrocities committed in the tumultuous land of Pakistan. If not, how much more extremism can the innocents of Pakistan endure? The gallant stand of Civil society in Pakistan against such brutal and repressive cluster must be appreciated and acknowledged. Our best hope of freeing Pakistan from the clutches of extremists lies with civil society – the silent majority—in that country.
TKN’s recent activities in Pakistan are shocking. Recent assemblage in Multan and Faisalabad, jointly with Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz Group) parliamentarians, have provoked and incited hatred and rage against Ahmadis. With these current trends, the Punjab Government is shaping up to create a law and order situation similar to the anti-Ahmadiyya disturbances of 1953 when TKN and its predecessors fanned hatred against Ahmadis resulting in wide scale riots in the country. Many Ahmadis lost their lives.
A leading Pakistan Urdu language newspaper published in its issue of February18, 2009 that there was an impending danger of an extremist attack on hundreds of Ahmadi religious centers all over Punjab, as well as business enterprises. The violence against Ahmadis has been escalating. Even governmental intelligence agencies have been warning of a spike in anti-Ahmadiyya violence in Punjab.
Under these circumstances, the decision of the Punjab Government to sponsor a TKN public meeting to be held on April 11th , 2009 at the biggest mosque in Lahore is appalling. Provocative and hateful public billboards publicizing this gathering of hate mongers are being displayed all over Lahore. Its announcement is inexorably detestable and exceedingly inflammable. The sole purpose of this meeting is to incite hatred against Ahmadis. The Punjab Government, instead of preventing these extremists, is actively encouraging them.
Unless TKN and the PML (N) are stopped now, they will succeed in stirring up further unrest in Pakistan and at a time when a stable Pakistan is the need of the hour, these elements will destabilize it further.
Pak Tea House 
This post is by some one who had chance to read Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) literature fairly in detail and knows about it fairly well.
I think there is nothing wrong with holding Khatam-e-Nabuwat (finality of prophet-hood) Conference, per se. But
1) Problem is those who hold and those who attend believe what ever 2nd amendment to 1973 constitution says is correct, and is based on fair, impartial PPP’s government decision in 1974. So belief of participants to such conference is not based on their own study, rather it is on what is fed to them by Pakistani politico-religious Ulama, or on hearsay.
2) Participants in their love for Rasul Allah SAWS, do not realize that Allah SWT, in Holy Quran, prohibits Muslims from calling other Muslim Kaffir (infidel) who recites Kalima-Tayyab regardless of the fact that how bad that person may be. It is up to Allah SWT to deal with such bad Muslim. He can deal with him in this world or hereafter. Especially in matter of belief Allah SWT deals in hereafter.
3) Participants bundle Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) members with Qadianis, whose Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad lives in London, UK. Unfortunately, these participants don’t realize LAM members believe in every sense of the word ‘Khatam-e-Nabuwat’ and believe that Rasul Allah SAWS is the LAST and GREATEST messenger of Allah SWT, and that NO new or old messenger can come after Rasul Allah SWT. They hold belief that Eisa A.S. will not come either, as this will violate the Khatam-e-Nabuwat (finality of prophet-hood) of Rasul Allah SAWS. They believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who founded the Ahmadiyya Movement was NOT a prophet, but rather was MUJJADID (revivalist/ reformist) like many who came before him and will come in future. There could be many such Mujjadids in the same era.
4) Participants of this conference do not realize that Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) members had NOTHING to do with waylaying and maiming of Nishtar Medical College students at Rabwah railway station in summer of 1974, that prompted riots. This was all done by Qadianis after receiving green light from then Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
Still, unfortunately, Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) suffered for no mistake of their own.
Can’t believe this is happening. For those who haven’t reviewed the Munir report of 1954 yet, may I suggest you do so. It seems we never learn from our mistakes, this is madness indeed.
I don’t care what these looney muslas think.
Here are some questions, whose answers I deserve as a citizen:
Who paid for these billboards, some of which were put up in posh localities like near the DHA gate in Lahore? These billboards cost at least a million each; did the Auqaf Department, which is run on our tax money, pay for them? I called the numbers given on the billboard near DHA, they hung up on me first and then refused to answer. I got stonewalled when I called the Punjab Secretariat as well.
Second, why is a national heritage site, i.e. the Badshahi Mosque, being used to stage what is essentially a hate-speech extravaganza against a minority? Is this not in violation of the Constitution? Further, you need permission from the High Court or Secretariat if you want to mount your camera on a tripod inside Badshahi Mosque; who the bollocking hell allowed these goondas to stage a full fledged hate CONFERENCE inside this mosque?
The answers will not be provided to us; but we should keep asking these questions. I don’t give a shit about the kooky beliefs of the organisers of this conference or the religious sect that they hate; but I cannot swallow the state giving my tax money to either.
I do not care whether Qadianis, Lahoris or others consider each other muslims or kafirs. My problem is with the state making it any of its business to interfere, other than with an impartial iron fist to maintain law and order under all circumstances. That’s it.
In the recent history of the muslims of the Indian subcontinent, a window of opportunity had opened up with Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. The intellectual reform was paralleled and surpassed, against all odds, by one man taking the political initiative away from the Congress, once it started representing less and less the opportunity Sir Syed had first seen and associated with the party.
That window is now very nearly closed, especially for Pakistan. Pakistan is as clueless about coming up with an answer to modernity, in its own voice (instead of unthinking assimilation), as Saudi Arabia and the most clueless amongst the muslim nations. It is, as if, Sir Syed, Jinnah, Abul Kalam Azad (another follower of Sir Syed) and Iqbal had never have been born, as far as Pakistan is concerned.
I’d leave it for others to discuss the significance of 1971 for Bangladesh, and, the mixed legacy of Azad for the Indian muslims of today… and the respective future of each.
http://nawaiwaqt.com.pk/E-Paper/Lahore/2009-04-12/page-1/detail-4
Pingback: The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement Blog » Blog Archive » Khatm-i nubuwwat conference
Government sponsored conference demands death for Ahmadi Muslims
“Just when Pakistanis need a positive message from their leadership to fight extremisms and become prosperous…government is supporting hate conferences to promote hatred in the society… as if the society needs any more of it…”
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/317686-government-sponsored-conference-demands-death-ahmadi-muslims.html
Ahmedis were declared non Muslims in seventies, and now, according to edict issued from Swat, it is turn of those opposing Nizam Adal, there.
aajkal editorial that says it;
Almost 55 years ago, the famous “Justice Munir Commission Report to enquire into the Punjab disturbances of 1953” was released. The commission found no two scholars who could agree on the definition of Muslim or an Islamic State.
I am taking the following passages from Tarek Fatah’s book “Chasing a Mirage; the Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State” below. This book is highly recommended for getting a good perspective on the utopian society, yearned by many, and governed by divine laws; and how it has fared throughout the history.
The commission posed the following question: “What is the Islamic State of which everyone talks, but nobody thinks?”
The question elicited interesting responses. The testimony of Master Tajuddin Ansari is given below:
Q: Is Khilafat with you a necessary part of Muslim form of Government
A: Yes
Q: Are you therefore in favour of having Khilafat in Pakistan?
A: Yes
Q: Can there be more than one Khalifa in Pakistan?
A: No
Q: Will the Khalifa of Pakistan be the Khalifa of all the Muslims of the world?
A: He should be, but he cannot be.
Further, towards the conclusion, we read the sad affairs of the theocratic leaders as follows:
“..We asked most of the leading ulema to give their definition of a Muslim, the point being that if ulema of the various sects believed the Ahmadis to be kafirs, they must be quite clear in the minds not only about the grounds of such belief but also about the definition of a Muslim, because the claim that a certain person or community is not within the pale of Islam implies on the part of the claimant an exact conception of what a Muslim is. The result of this part of the inquiry, however, has been anything but satisfactory, and if considerable confusion exists in the minds of ulema on such a simple matter, one can easily imagine what the differences on complicated matters will be”.
Further we read the frustrated comments by the two member Supreme Court Justice Commission:
“Keeping in view the several definitions given by the ulema, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines agreed on this fundamental. If we attempt our own definition as each learned divine has done and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the ulema, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim, but kafirs according to the definition of everyone else”.
This report was published a full 55 years ago in the aftermath of sectarian riots and protests to declare Ahmadi sect non-Muslim. Little has Pakistan learned from its own mistakes; going at it still with a religious zeal, and God knows how long will Pakistan suffer from its obsession with religious identity crisis that threatens to destroy it from within. I will maintain that Taliban are not the cause of a disease; they are simply the symptoms. They are simply a virulent version of the fanaticism that was stoked since the inception of Pakistan by the religious right, exploited by its short sighted rulers (right, left or center), and permeates most of the strata of the present day Pakistani society.
Adnan,
Don’t you think Tarek Fatah does more harm to the cause of secularism than good? I mean even in the excerpts from the Munir Report he has left out many important parts… primarily because of his own likes and dislikes… not to mention his description of Munir Report as “Supreme Court commission”… at the time Munir Report came out Pakistan had a federal court … and Munir was Federal Court CJ…. Kayani actually was from the Lahore High Court.
I wrote about the Munir Report a while before Fatah chose it fit to discuss it. I haven’t read Fatah’s book and I don’t intend to. Tarek Fatah has a long drawn out political baggage which makes him unable to grow up. I’d not like him speaking on issues close to my heart.
I like it when people pass judgement on a book without having read it. It becomes worse when they have the audacity to take pride in the fact that they will not read the book.
(This user is an IP sockpuppet of Tarek Fatah-PTH)
Return to 1954
Khalid Hasan, journalist, author and press secretary of PM Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in his weekly column Private View for Friday Times, September 19, 2008 writes:
Return to 1954.
Online link:
http://www.khalidhasan.net/2008/09/19/return-to-1954/
Return to 1954
Khalid Hasan, journalist, author and press secretary of PM Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in his weekly column Private View for Friday Times, September 19, 2008 writes:
Return to 1954.
Online link:
http://www.khalidhasan.net/2008/09/19/return-to-1954/
Yasir:
Tarek did include various additional excerpts from the Justice Munir Report. The report runs almost 350 pages, and Tarek picked the passages that were relevant to the chapter of his book; Pakistan, and the disaster Pakistan has encountered as it tried to fashion herself as an Islamic state. I finished reading the mammoth Munir Report document last week, and thought Tarek’s selection of the passages was quite judicious.
The report is a great window into the happenings of religious right post Partition, and how the seeds of religious fanaticism were planted by Ahrar and Jamaat-e-Islami. But this discussion probably belongs to another thread on PTH. The report can be read at http://www.thepersecution.org/dl/report_1953.pdf
I myself called the two member bench a Supreme Court Commission, and the error is solely on my part.
However, I disagree with the notion that Tarek does more harm to secularism due to his methods. I disagree with the socialist/communist leanings of his earlier days (if this is the baggage you are referring to). However in my view, Tarek correctly denounces the marriage of state and religion without any reservations. He does not subscribe to the notion that properly implemented secularism will lead to an ideal Islamic state. There are a few voices that justify secularism as it will lead to an ideal Islamic state envisaged by the Holy Prophet. In my humble opinion, it is a bit convoluted argument; Islam somehow wants to construct an ideal state, but ended up giving the wrong recipe. An Islamic State has never existed successfully throughout the history, and this book does a decent job in establishing this important fact check. We can go on and on that the Islam as a religion never wanted to be imposed beyond personal lives, but there is enough literature and 1400 years of bloody history to prove that while this notion may be embraced by a small minority, but is largely ignored by the clergy and religious lawmakers throughout Islamic history.
Tarek therefore goes out to review the Islamic history, and shows that the theocratic regimes throughout Islamic history have fared terribly. They have had short lifespan due to their inherent nihilistic attitudes. Even the first thirty years of the four Caliphs rule were marked with heavy distrust, tribal based succession, charges of nepotism, and violent death of two of the caliphs. Quite interesting is the description where most of the Muslim zenith in sciences and philosophy happened in dynastic regimes that cultivated a peculiar love hate relationship with clergy. A not so happenstance we observe to this day.
I read your post “Pakistan must be a secular state, or it will perish” with interest. Your analysis jives in with the discussion on this thread. I agree with the fundamental premise, but I am conflicted about the concluding sentence where you said “Pakistan needs to be a secular state to survive. There is no other way. True Islamic principles of equality, fraternity and justice dictate it”. I am not sure that earliest Islamic history is the best template for ideal inter-religious relations; true there have been positive instances, but there have been opposing instances that have been cited by jurists and extremists to justify their version of events. A lot of interpretations and earliest history does not exemplify complete equality. In my humble opinion, this tremendous room for ambiguity is the prime reason that secular arguments should stress complete equality between followers of different creeds, color, and tribes, irrespective of any religious context.
Dear Yasir Latif Hamdani,
I was amused at your declaration that you “don’t intend to” to read Chasing a Mirage, yet were able to pass judgement on the book. Of course, no one can force you to read a book, but surely one can expect you not to pass verdicts on works you have not touched.
You then go on to say, “Tarek Fatah has a long drawn out political baggage which makes him unable to grow up.”
Do I know you from somewhere? I don’t seem to recall ever meeting you, but I could be wrong and would appreciate on my “poltical baggage” that goes back to 1968.
But you save the best for last when you declare: “I’d not like him speaking on issues close to my heart.”
Pardon me Yasir, I never asked for permission from three military dictators that I suffered and I have no intention of worrying about whether you like me commenting on “issues close to my heart.”
Tarek
(This User is a suspected IP sockpuppet of Abdul Mannan-PTH)
Tarek Fatah,
With all due respect sir, one would imagine that a self styled bastion of all things good and mighty would be a little careful.
You write: ‘I never asked for permission from three military dictators that I suffered and I have no intention of worrying about whether you like me commenting on “issues close to my heart.” ‘
What three military dictators. You left Pakistan during Bhutto’s government… clearly not because of oppression (you settled in Saudi Arabia of all places)… unless you moved back to Pakistan in the years 1977-1987 or 1999-2008, you certainly missed 2 out of 4 of Pakistan’s dictators… and certainly General Zia’s 11 soulful years…
As for the rest of your comment… it makes no sense to me. So I’ll let you go play hero hero from your cushy comforts in Canada where you get accosted by big bad Arab men.
Do us a favor… in the future don’t post under “ABDUL MANAN”. Your IP address gives you away…
Adnann,
I don’t wish to discuss Tarek Fatah’s book as I have no interest in it.
Munir Report on the other hand is a great document… which ought to be translated and compulsory reading for all Pakistanis…
As for your point… when I said Islamic principles of Equality etc etc… I did not refer to any blue print from the early period of Islam per se but that Islam lays claims to so many ideals which can only be fulfilled in a secular state.
Yasir:
Among all the good analysis on PTH, once in a while you come in with shockingly low comments. I can only shake my head with disappointment on the ill-informed comments you are making about Tarek. I have known him and followed his struggles against Sharia apologists in North America for quite a few years, and if he is sitting comfy here in Canada all those years, I am probably living 24/7 in a five star resort here in Canada.
First of all, my recommendation for Tarek’s book is for everyone who would like to learn more about struggle between secular ideals and their right wing foes all across the world, throughout Islamic history. If you do not wish to read it, fine. You have not read the book, you have not followed Tarek’s struggles against Sharia apologists in North America, yet you think he has stopped growing. Tarek has spent most of the last decade being a thorn in the side of steady stream of Muslim fundamentalists that arrive from Middle East and Sub Continent, who wish to introduce Sharia laws in Muslim communities, openly support Taliban and religious parties opposed to democracy and human rights. We have seen him receiving a steady dose of death threats and invective for his stance here, and now you have decided that Tarek should not wish to speak of “matters close to your heart”. It seems a bit immature comment to me; if I had not followed you for the last few months, I may have dismissed you as another internet charade that gets riled up easily, and finds it hard to deal with people who do not agree to his point of view.
As per your point that Islam lays claims to so many ideals that can only be fulfilled by secularism, I will say that again that Islam’s ideals are accompanied by the well established rulebook (Sharia) that has been widely established throughout the Islamic history. You are trying to throw away the old rules, and saying that the alternate rules will get us to those ideals. And you are also selecting the ideals based on your personal taste. Jamaat-e-Islami ideals are different than yours, but they are looking at the same picture of Islamic ideals with their own lens. How about looking at universal human ideals where law deems every person as complete equal and affords them full protection regardless of their faith. Mind you, these universal human laws are not exactly equal to the Islamic laws in a theocratic Islamic country. The inability to shed the idea of an Islamic ideal for a society is what caused Muslims to never completely accept secularism.
Adnann
Dear Adnann,
I am not sure why you’ve chosen to discuss Tarek Fatah again despite my appeal to you to the contrary… but I respect your opinion and your ability to stand for reason, which is why let me re-state my position on Mr. Fatah once again. The integrity of Mr. Fatah is display here. If you wish to take lead from such a man … then I can only advise you to re-think. In my view, it is you who are ill-informed about this fellow and I welcome you to learn more about him from sources other than yours truly so that you are not misguided by my biases.
Now I’ll address some of these points you raise:
“you have not followed Tarek’s struggles against Sharia apologists in North America,”
I have followed his “struggle” very closely. He is an attention seeker and shameless careerist… otherwise, sharia apologists or no sharia apologists, there is no chance of Sharia being imposed in Canada.
“Tarek has spent most of the last decade being a thorn in the side of steady stream of Muslim fundamentalists that arrive from Middle East and Sub Continent,”
Or that is the image that Tarek has given of himself … it is an act of self-congratulation and nothing else. He is a mere student politician from Pakistan … who is living out some fantasy from an earlier life.
” who wish to introduce Sharia laws in Muslim communities”
Unless you mean the right of individuals vis a vis inheritance laws of choice under Common Law which is an accepted principle in English Jurisprudence- which forms the basis of Canadian legal system- and which Canada might even adopt, these guys can wish all they want but they won’t be able to impose criminal law of Islamic jurisprudence in any western society.
“openly support Taliban and religious parties”
As much as I hate people who do this, Canadian constitution protects freedom of conscience. However, if these people are collecting funds for Taliban, you should file a legal complaint against them.
Look all I am trying to say that I don’t need to learn about this stuff from someone like Tarek Fatah who didn’t have the gutts and fight it where it actually is relevant and who is indulging in “struggles” against confused, illiterate migrants who will one day come out of their shells and see the true nature of their obsessions. I would understand it if Mr. Fatah was carrying out this struggle in say United Kingdom where there is a much more serious problem… but in Canada, it is merely a joke. I ask you is there even a cause ? The cause actually is on the other side… where rational and enlightened leaders of the Muslim community have to organize Muslims and bring them into the mainstream of Canadian society. The “cause” that Fatah embodies is that Fatah once imagined himself a great future political leader of the left… a hope that was dashed by his departure to Saudi Arabia … and it was in Canada that he got an opportunity to re-live the dream… or so he thinks. If the “cause” is to simply state to the west that there are alternative views of Islam… then Fatah has failed miserably… he has merely shown again and again that he is a victim who evil and bad Muslims are willing to “accost”. Most of the “Death threats” he has received are most probably concocted.
In any event it is my considered opinion that it is people like Irshad Manji and others who have made a much more important contribution to the “cause” then the “Muslim Canadian Nonsense” etc.
Yasser:
You are entitled to your opinions. I would reply to some comments about Tarek and the rise of right wing Islamism here in Canada. At the end of the day, I hear your extreme distrust and we agree to disagree on these issues.
There is no chance of Sharia ever creeping into criminal law in Canada, or UK. However, Sharia advocates have tried hard to get Sharia based tribunals set up in Ontario to resolve non-criminal conflicts resolved through arbitration. The advocates had a valid point that religious based arbitration is practiced among Catholics and Jewish communities. I do however believe that this arbitration is fraught with danger of giving women short end of the stick. There have been reports from UK, where these mediation tribunals have handed down decisions against women in divorce cases. One law for all populace is a logical slogan for me and I give credit to Tarek and others who stood against it.
Canada may have less of an extremism problem than UK, but there is a definite rise in Taliban sympathizers. There have been a group of youth who are awaiting trials for planning to cause killings and mayhem in the Capital. Some of the religious clergy openly calls for helping brothers in Afghanistan. I have not heard a single mainstream Muslim leader here standing up to these Maulanas and challenging them on tacitly supporting Jihad in Afghanistan, all while the young soldiers in the very neighbourhoods head to Afghanistan to serve the Canadian Military. All Muslim voices, except a very few speak out, and yes they do get death threats regularly. Not just one, but there are quite a few brave souls that I have met, who do not wish any fame; they speak out simply because they are disgusted by the behaviour of the mainstream Muslim leaders, who keep on beating around the bush, never dealing directly with the crisis that the faith is facing due to action of few, and approval of many.
This will be my concluding comments on the digression that this thread has taken.
Regards,
Adnann
Canada has had it’s fair share of problems with minority rights. Without going into the rights or wrongs of Sharia law, Catholics and Jews had access to faith based arbitration for family law matters for decades. It was only when Muslims started asking for it that Ontario banned religious arbitration. Another issue that came up recently was public funding for faith based schools. Catholic school boards have consistently had access to public funding and continue to do so. The poor chap who wanted to provide equal funding to all faith based schools paid a big price for it politically and nothing changed.
All this just goes to show that any society that truly wants equal rights for all should really be secular with the same law applying to all, faith should be left to what it’s supposed to be, a personal choice.
On a side note, I can confirm that there are many Taliban apologists in Canada. You see them in the mosques and may get invited to go on their Tablighi tours. This is not to disparage my Paki-Canadian friends, but a significant number of the immigrants over the past 20 years or so are semi literate, live in ethnic ghettos and only hang out with their kind. It’s drastically different from the earlier decades when nearly all of them used to be professionals. By the way, this is true of the States as well.
@Shahzad
You left me feeling uneasy. Are Tablighi adherents to be seen as violence-prone bigots? I thought not, that they were fundamentalist, but more wrapped up with their personal conformance with correct observance of faith than with radicalised action against non-Muslims.
The Glasgow bombers had an Indian member, whose father was Tablighi, and whose mother was hostile to them.
This discussion came up then, and most Muslim opinion tended to be that they were to be left alone, but harmless otherwise.
Please could you throw some light on this?
Bonobashi,
What I meant to say was that a majority of them still think of the Taliban as a righteous group of individuals who may have some faults but are ultimately helping Islam’s cause, it’s the ends justify the means sort of crowd. I am not sure if this is case for all of them but this has been my experience.
Also, I am not sure that they are really just about correct observance in their own lives. They seek to convert all Muslims to their brand of correct Islam. May I also say that some of their bigger congregations like the one at Raiwind are probably being used by the Taliban to recruit young teenagers and men. It’s an excellent cover, I doubt there have been any investigations done on what exactly goes on at these places besides real Islamic preaching.
@Shahzad
Thank you. The matter is clearer now. Obviously a little more study on my part is called for, but I now have a guideline. Much obliged.
I have some anecdotal accounts of Tablighi meetings and they sounded quite harmless, to be honest, although the person reporting it, being a hard-core leftist, had a far more hostile evaluation. Maybe, as they say, I am a little wishy-washy about these things.
Bonobashi,
Anytime. I have no issue with Tablighi groups, it just drives me crazy that a majority of them fail to condemn the Taliban for what they are and preach the Wahabist cause which is the saddest thing that happened to Islam. They might not come across as such to strangers. Here’s a social experiment for the doubters, join a jammat, stick around for some time, and you’ll see it for yourself.
YLH mentioned Irshad Manji, there’s much that I don’t agree with what she says, however, her call for reform is valid. Trouble is Islam has never been bound by an institution like the Catholic church for example that centralizes religious decision making if one can call it that, which would make reform easier. Granted that Christianity is not just represented by the Catholics, but other sects such as the Russian/Greek Orthodox churches and the Egyptian Coptics are also fairly strong institutions. The Evangelicals in the States mostly vote for whomever the Church calls for during Sunday Mass, though their power to swing elections is now on the way down. Point is, with the Deobandis and Wahabiis or any other Islamic sects there are no central bodies which are that strong(apart from maybe the Shia). This has resulted in all sorts of crazies hijacking the religion, perverting it in the process and spreading it like a cancer. Hence you’ll find fatwas for or against things which should be fairly straightforward i.e. terrorism. There are the different schools of thought i.e Hanafi, Salafi etc but I doubt the average Pakistani identifies himself/herself as such, most are content with being Shia or Sunni.
Now I am not a religious scholar by any means, these are just my thoughts, but the notion that Islam as a religion has been perfected already is ridiculous. Otherwise, why would the concept of Ijtihad even be there.
Anyhow, that’s exactly why the Pakistani state must be secular, people would never agree on what version of Islam should be implemented.
Societies based on breeding hatred and hypocrisy inevitably destroy themselves from within. The whole religious fanaticism and hypocrisy started with the 1953 riots against Ahmadis.
PML-N are nothing but mullahs without beards.We have become a sick society excelling only in prejudiced and hatred for everyone.
And Rashid shame on you for supporting this so called majlis of TKN!
@Shahzad
Fascinating!
Of course I would like to avoid the terrible mistake of getting diverted into specialist comparative religion studies, but it is interesting to be able to distinguish between these subtleties. Is Ms Manji the one who advocates the return of ‘ijtihad’?
One question I am frequently asked by doubting Thomases is how a mono-cultural Pakistan will ever become secular. This baffles me.
Secular never meant letting in the entire babbling mob and allowing them equal air time; it meant keeping the pack safely away from any public display or arrogation of public time, funds or human resources. It arose of course from the increasing separation in Christian countries between church and state, and for that reason, is a relatively underdeveloped, misunderstood and distorted concept in both Islamic and Hindu cultures. I am not very sure about Buddhist: going by Sri Lanka, they’ve made the same bloopers, going by Thailand, they seem to be coming away.
I have asked a counter-question: how come Sweden, with its single religion, is secular and faces no difficulty nor any credibility deficit? There is usually a furious silence as answer.
Bonobashi,
I agree that religion is a slippery slope, however refusing to address some of the thorny issues has partly resulted in the predicament that Muslims and by extension Pakistanis face today.
Irshad Manji indeed has called for Ijtihad, but it would actually help if that call came from within the clergy, only then can it be expected to produce any results. A vast majority of Manji’s followers are also what I call Christopher Hitchens impostors, those who believe that Islam belongs to the stone ages and has no place in the world today. She is not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination and doesn’t help her cause by being openly lesbian and having sit downs with Salman Rushdie. I am not being judgmental by any means but if your audience is supposedly main stream Muslims then the baggage can cause some serious credibility issues.
On the other hand, folks interested in religious reform and real scholarly works have an excellent choice in Rabbi Jonathan Sacks “Dignity of Difference”. Yes it’s about Judaism, but the concept’s the same, recommend it to all.
@Shahzad
You have a point, in your particular situation.
About Irshad Manji, I don’t know too much about her, but I do understand that this particular call, for the revival of Ijtihad, is likely to possess the aerodynamic qualities of a lead balloon coming from her. Again, without being judgemental, she should realise at least from the tactical point of view that it is unlikely that she has any audience among ‘mainstream’ Muslims. Perhaps she should pursue a somewhat different trajectory, which will permit her ethnic – or religious – identity without compromising the rest of her persona.
While, as I mentioned, I am not really engaged with religion, the book sounds interesting, and I shall hunt it down. Unlikely to be in the bookshops – we have a very small Jewish population in Calcutta, probably less than a 100 – might try the National Library.
Thanks again. This is turning out to be quite an educative by-lane!
I think this comes from being spoilt for choice (actually, shade) of religious confession, and method of expression. Sometimes, when in contemplation of what’s happening in the world around, I think perhaps it’s time to sit down and count one’s blessings.
@Zeenat:
On April 12, 09 i wrote:
“I think there is nothing wrong with holding Khatam-e-Nabuwat (finality of prophet-hood) Conference, per se. But…”
On April 17, 09 Zeenat writes:
“And Rashid shame on you for supporting this so called majlis of TKN!”
My reason for writing what i wrote:
There is no harm if people want to express their opinion in rational, peaceful way. It is better to have debates, discussion, and share ideas. As this kind of exercise will intellectually stimulate people and help them understand why NO old or new prophet can come after Rasul Allah SAWS. Because if this happens it will VIOLATE finality of prophtehood of Rasul Allah SAWS. As result of peaceful, and rational discussion Muslims would come to know that Eisa A.S. (Jesus) will NOT return in this world in physical form to violate
finality of prophethood on Rasul Allah SAWS; and Qadiani Jamaat people would also come to know that their belief that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib was (Godforbid–NAUZUBILAH) a prophet is also WRONG as it also VIOLATES the finality of prophethood of Rasul Allah SAWS.
I hope Zeenat understands my point.
Interesting fact … !
TKN is made and comprises of Mullah having an ahrari background , and ahrari always opposed Pakistan and always worked for Indian congress payroll, they called that any thing made by Muslim league will be Palidistan , that is their agenda and now they are working to accept their goal …. !
When Hazrat Mirza Mahmood Ahmad (2nd Khalifah of Ahmadiyya) was head of Kashmir committe and things were developing fine , Indian congress called for Ahrars support and they rasied the relegious pressure in committe and Hazrat sahab resigned … !
When Sir Zafarullah was Pakistans foreign minister and he raised voice for Arabs and Kashmiris in UN , Indian again called for Ahrar help and they started a violent movement Zafarullah resigned !
When Dr Salam came to Pakistan for setting a research institute in Pakistan and for Pakistan . Indian dont like that … they called for Ahrar help and Salam went back see Nazir Naji views about that … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBuerXOOfKE
When Pakistan got its constitution and it was moving towards prosperity in 1970`s Indian again called for Ahrar help and they again started anti Ahmadi movement in 1974 , for creating unrest but against their consideration liberal Bhutto accepted their demand , i always wonder why Mullah not raised issue of Ahmadiyya in 1973 when they signed the constitution … ?
Now , in 1980 our beloved fourth Imam warned the nation that , the Mullah will ride on you and will never leave you he used the word Pir-e-Tasma Pa. … no one realized at that time and now Mullah have hijacked the Pakistan of Quaid e Azam … all Madarsas are cants of Taliban , government is still not serious …. as per it is clear from the TKN conference in Lahore where the religious advisor participated which visualizes the participation of government
I congratulate Mullah .. for their dream came true … and Palidistan is ready for their control ..