By a Pakistani
The contribution of Ahmadis to Pakistan starting right from Zafrulla Khan (the full measure of whose service to Pakistan one can get from reading the Jinnah-Isphahani Correspondence and Begum Abida Sultan’s memoirs) has been first rate. Our only Nobel Prize Winner is an Ahmadi, Dr. Abdus Salam, a man who has served Pakistan and humanity much better than we can imagine. In the 1965 war amongst those who were left unsung were two courageous Ahmadi brothers who laid down their lives.
In 1974, an ambitious Prime Minister – trying to outmaneouvre the Mullahs- ex-communicated the Ahmaddiya community. The Ahmadis however continued to serve their nation with a zeal that is extraordinary.
Major Afzal Mehmood was born in 1976 in Karachi and he did his F.SC from T.I College (Taleem ul Islam College) Rabwah, And for his Country and People he was fighting with the enemy in FC NWFP from past year. On 19th June 2009 he went on Patrol with his men on Pak-Afghan border but near Bajur they were ambushed the troops returned fire but this brave man achieved Shahadat (Martyrdom) when he was hit by a bullet in the Head.
On 20th June his Body was brought to Rabwah for Burial were he was given Full Army Salute and a Shaheed’s Burial.
Pak Tea House 
May his soul rest in peace… Amen
Ahmadiyya services to Pakistan are not new; nor is the continuous saga of the nonrecognition of those services.
Way back when Pakistan was new on the map of the world, the Canada Star Weekly, Toronto, in its issue of May 28, 1949, wrote:
“The man who more than any other single person has put Pakistan on the international map as a force to be reckoned with is Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan.”
The daily Dawn, Karachi, dated May 22, 1952, condemned some persons who were disgruntle about Sir Zafraullah Khan being an Ahmadi, and observed:
“The Pakistani nation cannot be so ungrateful to Chaudhry Muhammad Zafarullah Khan (who is serving her with great sincerity and devotion) as to be misled by the uproar of a handful of reactionaries – uproar of a small number of people who are prisoners of their own obscurantism.”
“[P]risoners of their own obscurantism” was perhaps the most accurate term used by the paper. The world is witness to the fact that the continuous ‘imprisonment of their own obscurantism’ has brought this country to the brink of disaster.
A former Prime Minster of Pakistan, Ch. Mohammad Ali in his letter dated October 3, 1955 expressed his “deep sense of gratitude and admiration for the disinterested and untiring way, you are continuing to serve Pakistan and the cause of Islam…. It was very good of you to have visited Syria and Lebanon and done so much for Pakistan and I might add Islam.”
May Allah have mercy on all of us.
Hey,
Thanks for exposing that.
a qadiyani victim of qadiyani conspiracy.
Why does every quack like to put “Dr.” behind his name?
Aray neem hakeem jawaad khan sb could you tell me what “Qadiyani” conspiracy that is?
hahahahahhahaha.
lag gaee kia?
why every qadiyani take the refuge behind the name of “AHMADI MUSLIM” ?
don’t ask me smart ass!
ask your elders who are supported and funded equally by british and israelis.
your contacts with israel is no secret now. israel trust on qadiyanis more than they do on americans.
qadiyani have their offices in israel and bizzare news came out when we found that qadiyani soldiers are being recruited in israeli army.
Mian neem hakeem,
Jhootay par allah ki laanat! That is all I would say to people like you.
I challenge you to prove your claims.
Please excuse “dr.” jawwad khan sahib. Unfortunately “dr.” sahib is unable to hold intelligent conversation. He is from the very same lot whom the daily Dawn labeled as ‘handful of reactionaries…. who are prisoners of their own obscurantism’. (Read the previous post by Imran.)
May God have mercy on his soul.
“Jhootay par allah ki laanat! That is all I would say to people like you”
ooopsss…….do you have any idea what did you just said?
you cursed your prophet…..
I salute this shaheed! He was born in a country that discriminated against him and yet he laid down his life so that children of fools like neem hakeem jawaad khan live in peace.
Neem hakeem mian, Do you have an argument or some proof for your lies against Ahmadi Muslioms?
Looks like you can’t prove your point with
@nadeem!
obscurantism?????
nadeem sahib believe me. i have tons of refrences not from the books of muslims but from the books of mirza ghulam qadiyani. and i gaurunty you that reading those refrences do not make you feel happy.so zip it smart pants
zip it for the sake of your favourite illusion that you are right.
“Looks like you can’t prove your point with”
prooooooooofffff????
excuse me!!!!!
you need proof?
so tell me from where should i start?
i thinks we should start from the begining….right?
tell me one more time and you shall have it..
Neem hakeem jawwad khan sb,
“Where should I start from”
Start by being
honest for once.
Come on now we await your “proof” anxiously!
Btw, your assumption that either myself or the owner of this website have any religious affiliation with Ahmadi sect is baseless… I have profound disagreements with Ahmaddiya dogma and their conservatism and find their faith run of the mill hanafi sunni ahle hadith mix and match. I am personally closer to Shia tradition of Islam which is more cultural, modernist and liberal.
Some of us are just fairminded enough not to buy into crap written by neem hakeems like yourself. This doesn’t mean we are Ahmadis.
“Btw, your assumption that either myself or the owner of this website have any religious affiliation with Ahmadi sect is baseless…
OOOOOPPsssss!
qadiyaniat ka bhagorha shiaiyat ki taraf dorha….
abhee discussion start huwee naheen ke explainations start ho gaeen.
don’t be hippocrite pussy.
admit it and be a man.
Ziada bakwas na karo. Proof lao.
“bakwas band karo aur proof lao”
tell me what the hell this qadiani temple is doing in “HAIFA”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ahmadi/Mahmood_mosque_Kababir
Ha ha… neem hakeem mian… this is your proof? Wikipedia – and that too a User Page (which means that Wikipedia found this page to be grossly inaccurate) … and even the page which merely states that Ahmadi missionaries settled in British Palestine in the 1920s (just as they settled in Africa, North America, South America and Australia)…
You fundoo types are funny indeed.
“and even the page which merely states that Ahmadi missionaries settled in British Palestine in the 1920s (just as they settled in Africa, North America, South America and Australia)…”
yes that was a question. why in israel. why in a town like a kababeer which have a stretagic location? overlooking the Athleeth Harbour and it Naval Base and Ordinance factory on one side and the Haifa Harbour on the other.
ridiculing the wikipedia is not the answer….is it?
99% population of this town is Palestinian Arab belonging to Qadiani community. Zionists have known to displace/eleminate Palestinians from areas of much less importance. The village of Dier Yaseen was wiped from the face of earth, killing all its inhabitants. (Crossroads to Israel by Christopher Sykes, Promise and Fulfilment by Arthur Koestler, The Other Exodus by Erskine Childerns) and yet the same Zionists continue to tolerate Qadianis residence at such an important place for obvious reasons. Jama’at Ahmadiyya publishes its arabic propaganda literature by the name of AlBushra, from this place for distribution among the Arab World.
@YLH
I am at a loss for words, to see you spend time on this fribble. Is he to be taken seriously, with his mish-mash of crazed rubbish and conspiracy theories? Are you seriously giving him time and dignifying his ravings?
{{EDITED SINCE THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS OF ANY SECT.}}
Neem Hakeem mian,
“why in israel”
In 1928 there was no Israel.
“ridiculing Wikipedia”
While Wikipedia is not a valid source, even Wikipedia has rejected the submission that you’ve quoted. It does not exist as a Wikipedia page but as a user page alone.
The only thing you’ve established is that Ahmadis had missionaries in British Palestine just like in Africa and other places before Israel came into existence.
@ Dr. Jawwad Khan….
This was a post about a son of Pakistan..a soldier, probably a father and husband and was meant to give his gallant service an honorable aknowledgement..
shame on you for dragging this into the gutter…Shame on you indeed.
Maj. Afzal Mehmood will never again return home to the sounds of his kids shouting ‘Baba’ because he chose to fight for your right to be able to send your family’s daughters to school…
and you choose this post to denigrate his community and thereby piss on him?
For heavens sake, if you do not consider him a martyr for Allah then at least considering him a martyr for Pakistan should have been his due and enough to make you hold your foul tongue….
Since you do not possess the dignity to honor the very men who fall for you; I believe it would be fitting that you be handed a rifle to face the Mullah so that when you too are cut down, the rest of us can take turns pissing on your grave as well…..
Tum jaisay logon nay Pakistan to dozakh bana diya hai…
now be gone and not soil the memory of this brave Son of Pakistan further…God knows he deserves to be shielded from your Bakwas!
Bonobashi…
I have to indulge him… too many people buy such crap from neem hakeem liars like him.
Neem Hakeem Jawaad Khan,
Your latest post is also about religious beliefs of the sect and does not put up any evidence for your lies against the Ahmaddiya community. Now we cannot allow you to hijack this board by venting your hatred… so unless you stay on the topic, you won’t be allowed to post here.
Now I’ve heard that Tetrapak is laying off employees. Do you want me to talk to your HR manager about your abuse of Tetrapak’s facilities for hate-mongering?
@ylh
@bhundbashi
here is some thing which is as solid as concret. i assure you that this will not waste your time.every word and every sentence is worth reading
here we go:
On June 14, 1899, Mirza Ghulam’s wife gave birth to a baby boy, whom they called “Mubarak Ahmad”. Within a few days of the birth of this son, Mirza Ghulam declared:
“This lad is indeed a Spark of the Light of Allah, the promised reformer, the owner of greatness and authority, possessor of healing breath like the Messiah, curer of diseases, a word of God and a lucky person. His fame will spread to the four corners of the world, he will set prisoners free and through him all nations will be blessed.”
(Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, P. 43)
In 1907, when he was only eight years old, this boy fell ill. Concerned that all these prophecies were linked to the livelihood of the boy, Mirza Ghulam had the best treatment available administered to the boy. The boy recovered from his illness and, on August 27, 1907, Mirza made the following statement:
“God has revealed to me that He has accepted the prayer and the illness is cured. It means that God has accepted my prayer and Mubarak Ahmad will get well.”
(Badr, August 29, 1907)
No sooner had he attributed this statement to Allah(SWT), that Mubarak Ahmad fell ill again and died, on September 16, 1907. (Sirat-ul-Mehdi, P. 40; Alfadl, October 30, 1940)
@YLH…
Janab, I must urge you to do the right thing and fire off that email to tetrapak HR. This scum deserves nothing less..who know you might get lucky and the HR mgr turns out to be from the Ahmedi community….
ah to dream! 🙂
Neem Hakeem Jawaad Khan mian,
Pray tell what this is supposed to prove? H0w does this prove your claims?
We are not concerned with the religious views of the Ahmadi jamaat… and therefore I will delete your post in a minute.
However I’d like to know how this plays into your grand c0nspiracy theory or the fact that you should be grateful that this brave young Ahmadi shaheed is fighting for your country, while you hide your sorry ass in a foreign land.
Yes. Where he is I am sure TetraPak would have a less tolerant policy on the matter.
wow! thats new. i must say after more than 20 yrs i geard that kind of whining ,yelling and cry.
what a threat. i am scared.
you know what???? you are pathetic
why deleted my posts?
i showed the refrences from the book written by ghulam ahmed qadiyani…
i warned you before do not ask me about the proofs.
let the refrences come out of the books of ghulam ahmed qadiyani there is nothing wrong in it.he is your prophet. atleast just read what he said and wrote.
again i would say ….BE A MAN
conpiracy theory???
just read the “Israel: A Profile by I.T Naomi”
Dear Neem Hakeem sb
Your post- the one with the “references” was deleted because it had nothing to do with either the topic or your grand Qadiyani conspiracy theory. We are not interested in a theological debate over the merits of Jamaat Ahmaddiya my friend.
You’ve provided us with no proof. So be a man and admit that you don’t have a proof. And while you are at it… learn some English language as well.
and you haven’t answer my question.
why israelis tolerated the presence of qadiyanis in such a strategic location?
“Israel: A Profile by I.T Naomi”
Could you give us the page numbers of this great scholarly work where it says that Ahmadis are somehow Jews in disguise?
You are such a joke Neem Hakeem sb.
@ YLH…
Please tell me that you’ve already sent off that email to HR?
“and you haven’t answer my question.
why israelis tolerated the presence of qadiyanis in such a strategic location?”
Because the presence of Qadiyanis at the said location and this strategic location itself exist only in your active imagination.
Now I can’t imagine how Israelis can drive Qadiyanis from a place that has coordinates in your twisted mind.
its not theological debate!!!!!
it is the “SAYINGS OF YOUR PROPHET”
what is matter are you ashamed of something?
BTW english is not my language. give this bhashan to some one else.because i have no inferiority complex
D-A-N!
Why don’t you send email by yourself?
Neem Hakeem Jawwad Khan sb,
First of all my Prophet is the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). To the best of my knowledge you were not quoting his sayings.
Secondly … what you are writing is a theological debate. Now I know English is not your language – duh clearly but thanks for telling us… but could you atleast tell us how Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s prophecies and sayings relevant to your claims and the topic at hand?
Kindly support your assertions with some proof or evidence which is actually related to the topic.
“tell me what the hell this qadiani temple is doing in “HAIFA”
What everyother mosque is doing in what is now Israel. Rea d the article again, this mosque was built in 1931 long before Israel’s creation. After Israel’s creation Ahmadi Arabs like many other Arabs stayed within Israeli borders instead of quitting their ancestral land. What is the problem with this? You are just making up stories as you wish. Facts are pretty clear.
Ahmadis are non-violent so they are considered harmless by everyone, so are generally left alone.
Are you really a Dr? Can’t you read and investigate a little or has your bigotry blinded you that much?
Haha, nice to see Dr Jawwad Khan bringing his superb intellect to this blog as well. This should be fun!
Ignoring his special brand of BS, though, I salute Maj Mehmood for his sacrifice for the nation. I don’t care if he’s Ahmedi or a “real” Muslim (as if anyone’s ever figured THAT out), he served my country by giving the ultimate sacrifice of his own life.
And Dr Jawwad Khan, “sayings of your prophet”? Has anyone ever verified any of those sayings?
Didn’t think so.
@ Dr. Jawwad Khan…
don’t you dare address me you swine….
D-A-N
you are ignored.
DENIAL BURKI!
how sweet?
“yes that was a question. why in israel. why in a town like a kababeer which have a stretagic location? overlooking the Athleeth Harbour and it Naval Base and Ordinance factory on one side and the Haifa Harbour on the other.
ridiculing the wikipedia is not the answer….is it?”
In 1920 there was no Israel! Are you really a doctor? In 1920 Israel was an Arab Muslim area. What is this strategic thing you are talking about? Most significant cities are “strategic” but people do live in them for the living opportunities they provide. Karachi has a naval base. Is anyone stopped from living there or declared criminals just for living there? No one complains unless there is proof of any wrong doing, naval base or not. Unlike you making up stuff completely ignoring the reality of how things work in real life. Are you really a Dr? Can I ask with institution gave you that degree?
Once again, there are plenty cities in the world with naval bases, nuclear bases or other sensitive installations but no one stops Muslims or Pakistanis form living there or blames them for living there as long as they are law abiding. Stupid arguments like this just show your desperation.
“And Dr Jawwad Khan, “sayings of your prophet”? Has anyone ever verified any of those sayings?
they knew it already….
but please do check it and if possible…share with your friends in denial.
“99% population of this town is Palestinian Arab belonging to Qadiani community.”
So? 99% populations of other areas in Israel is Sunni or otherwise..What does that mean exactly? People usually try to live together specially when they are minority. In Pakistan we have shia mohallahs, xtians areas and some areas are Hindu dominated.
” Zionists have known to displace/eleminate Palestinians from areas of much less importance.”
I don’t know what Zionist plans for that area are but we are not talking of an Island where space is scare. There is plenty of space there for Zionists to do whatever they want.
“The village of Dier Yaseen was wiped from the face of earth, killing all its inhabitants. (Crossroads to Israel by Christopher Sykes, Promise and Fulfilment by Arthur Koestler, The Other Exodus by Erskine Childerns)”
There are many Arab areas that are intact so this is not general.
” and yet the same Zionists continue to tolerate Qadianis residence at such an important place”
What important place?
“for obvious reasons. ”
What obvious reasons? You have not provided a single proof of any wrongdoing but only your imagination. Be clear on what you are blaming Ahmadis for but back it with proof not just imagination.
“Jama’at Ahmadiyya publishes its arabic propaganda literature by the name of AlBushra, from this place for distribution among the Arab World.”
No, AlBushra is published form London. What is wrong with publishing from Israel? It’s the content that matters. Can you show any objectionable content from AlBushra? Just because you publish something from US the grand supporter of Israel makes you an agent of US? And it’s the Israelis who should be worried about Muslims publishing their publications in Israel for preaching Islam not the other way round. You are being very primitive here. Think rationally. Ahmadis are doing the rational thing to spread Islam peacefully and Israel claiming to be a democratic state can not stop them from doing it. Others should also pick on this idea. I don’t know why so much Muslim money goes to creating terrorists rather than filling-up Israel with mosques and mission to spread Islam peaceful? If a significant number of Jews are converted to Islam then Palestinian problem will be solved. Why do it the hard way when it can be done easily? There is wisdom in Ahmadi way of peacefully spreading Islam, other Muslims should also follow it.
@Dr Jawwad: “They knew it already”? What does that even mean?
How can I verify all the things Mohammed (or any religious leader/prophet) said? You really want me to start with that; I’ve already wiped the floor with you on this very issue in another forum.
@D_a_n
I appreciate U for this honest view….
”Dr. Jawwad
This was a post about a son of Pakistan..a soldier, probably a father and husband and was meant to give his gallant service an honorable aknowledgement..
Shame on you for dragging this into the gutter…Shame on you indeed.”
I Salute to the Martyr of Pakistan…
@Aliarqam
A man who gives his life for his country deserves nothing but honour. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
I salute the gallant soldier. May he rest in peace.
Bonobashi,
Thank you for those kind words. He was an honorable man in a country now populated with dishonorable crooks.
@ dr jawwad khan wrote at June 28, 2009 at 1:02 pm
“believe me. i have tons of refrences…”
Well, ‘dr’ sahib – this is same as in the case of a jackass that is loaded with ‘tons’ of books; it would remain a jackass.
Happy readings……
why did the idiot owner of this website use the term “AHMADI MAJOR” ??
May Allah bless his soul and elevate his status in heavens!
Ameen!
Only an ‘idiot’ would not under stand why the ‘owner of this website use the term “AHMADI MAJOR” ??’
Forgive my previous typos!
@Rana Aslam Wajid
Only an ‘idiot’ would not understand why the ‘owner of this website used the term “AHMADI MAJOR” ??’
He deserves our salutations without equivocation. This nonsense of declaring people non-Muslim is, in my opinion one of the most dangerous things the jokers of Pakistan have perpetrated.
It is shameful that we cannot honor the sacrifice of this brave soldier, without dragging religion into the mix. He was an Ahmadi, so what? Was he not a Pakistani? Did he not die fighting the most vile form of Islam today? The one which says its okay to flog women, destroy schools, murder ulema who resist their antediluvian form of dogma, shoot at our soldiers, terrorise our citizens, and makes our children weep.
Riddle me this, why do we never talk of the vast Saudi conspiracy against Pakistan? I wish you could see, and feel the rage which burns in my throat: go to Riyadh and Jeddah, where the sons, daughters and the loyal bedouins of the House of Saud live in luxury and peace. Now consider how these very same residents of the holy land playfully instruct our people to blow themselves up for the glory of their brand of Islam here in Pakistan. This is not disputable. This is fact. This is not fiction. To top it off, they import us like human cattle to wash their arses.
Thankfully, as long as people like Afzal Mehmood live, Pakistan has hope. For where else on this Earth will you find an example such that someone who has been abandoned and vilified by his people will, against all common sense, willingly lay down his life for them.
Octavian!
Well Said…..
Nadeem:
Well said too in your previous post to Rana Aslam. Typos or not, the post was laser sharp. ;-).
The Pakistani who wrote this article should be commended. Both the article and the title are very appropriate. The authors speaks for all Pakistanis and their well wishers when he pays homage to a brave soldier; a true patriot.
The title highlights what this struggle is all about; a battle for inclusiveness, for freedom of worship and without exception, for all sons and daughters of Pakistan.
By shedding his blood for the sake of a nation, Major Afzal Mehmood has earned more of a stake in this nation than the likes of Dr. Jawwad Khan will ever have.
The martyr’s name will always live in glory and there is nothing that the Jawwads of this world can say to ever diminish it.
However discussing the faith of Major Mehmood with the bigoted doctor Khan is an insult to all the faiths and to the ideal of the Pakistani nation for which Major laid his life.
The so called doctor has gotten more attention than he ever deserved and should now be politely ignored. The memory of Major Mehmood on the other hand must never be forgotten by those who love and cherish the idea of a free and a fair Pakistan.
Octavian:
Well said too.
Especially about the strange subservience of the Pakistani elite to the rulers of a small desert Kingdom who themselves remain as insecure as they are outdated in this modern 21st century world!!
i need not repeat what some others here have said much better than i ever could. a man much wronged, made the ultimate sacrifice for our right to live. and see our children live. the least, the very least, we can do is to do whatever we can to ensure that his children can live in a pakistan which is free of such abominable wrongs as he had been subjected to. his magnanimity, honour, and, ultimately, bravery are virtues beyond mere words.
even before we can start paying the debt we owe to the next generation, we must ensure that the one to whom we owed so much in life and so much more in death is fully and properly honoured. it is extremely painful, and shameful, for me to bring up here the state-sanctioned and officially undertaken vandalism and hate-crime that Dr Abdus Salam’s tombstone has been subjected to. but nothing is beyond the ‘Taliban within’. how we honour this fallen soldier – our brother, will decide whether we will win or lose this war.. and whether this dark night will be followed by true dawn.. or yet another false one.
funny that the criminal responsible for much evil that we are victims of today – zia-ul-haq – helped kill 25,000 (perhaps 40,000) Palestinians, yet there are no conspiracy theories about him being an Israeli agent. as for the repulsive hypocrites in Riyadh, I’d much rather Pak had an embassy in Tel Aviv, than not have one because of the corrupt-to-the-core, dictatorial regime in Riyadh.
Among all the Muslim clergy of pre-partitioned India, Ahmadis were the only voice that openly and unconditionally supported the movement of Pakistan. At that time they sacrificed their lives and wealth and children for the cause of Pakistan without asking anything in return and even now they continue to sacrifice their lives despite the odds. There passed not a single month when an Ahmadi is not brutally killed. In most cases, target would be a doctor.
On the other hand, the bigots who did every thing to sabotage the creation of Pakistan are now in full swing. Fitna-e-Ahrar has turned into Fitna-e-Taliban. The only difference is that before they were against the idea of Pakistan and now they are against the existence of Pakistan. The June 27th letter published in Jang is a worth read on this issue.
Brilliant point BC. General Zia ul Haq, the butcher of Palestinians in Black September massacre, is called “mard-e-momin” by these people…but Zafrullah Khan whose contributions to the cause of Palestine were second to none is somehow an Israeli agent.
EDITED FOR BEING IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION.
EDITED FOR BEING IRRELEVANT
Those bringing up Allama Iqbal and his issues with Jamaat Ahmaddiya … should know that the founding father of Pakistan was Mahomed Ali Jinnah not Allama Iqbal.
As the president of the Muslim League, when approached by a bunch of reactionaries who wanted to throw the Ahmadis out of the League, Mahomed Ali Jinnah told them a simple rule: “Anyone who professes to be a Muslim is a Muslim”. In 1947, Pakistan even laid claim to Qadian as a Muslim holy place. To Jinnah, the most capable Muslim in all of India who he could trust was Sir Zafrulla… and he was an Ahmadi.
As for the great Poet Philosopher Allama Iqbal… his father was an Ahmadi and his elder brother’s family is Ahmadi to this day. Whatever he might have said should be seen in that context. On whether he would approved of such narrowmindedness against them… I think Dr. Javed Iqbal, his son, has answered that question in Apna Gareban chak.
Its worth listening to the family of the Shaheed.
pakistan army has hindus sikh christians and other religions amongs its ranks. the sole purpose of this institution is to protect pakistan the valiant sodiers including maj afzal who hv laid down their lives for the country deserve all praise . regardless of their religious beliefs we are all indebted to them. hats off to maj sahib may Allah forgive his sins and grant solace to his families.as far as dactar jawaad is concerned he and others like him are known anti state . they hate pakistan yet call it their country.
he is a big fan of lal masjid molvis almashoor burqa brigade.
just ask him wats the stand of imam e qaba abt such terrorist.he has no answers just galam galoch in return. the funniest thing is he lives in saudia.
My words cannot describe the gratitude I have for brave Major Afzal Mahmood. For that matter, all those courageous men who are fighting for us on the frontlines, so that us and our future generations can hopefully live much better lives.
He laid down his life, gave the maximum sacrifice he could for his motherland; and all I see this so called Doctor and his cohorts in the media doing is casting aspersions on his sect.
Dr. Jawwad and his ilk will continue to live out their lives, trapped in this vicious hatred. Yet I do see a lot of spontaneous support and respect for a brave soul, irrespective of his caste and creed, that goes on to show that Pakistan in inhabited by many good people who rise above petty religious rhetoric, and are united behind one single name: Pakistan.
Bloody Civilian: Is there any website link to give further information of Zia-ul-Haq’s role in Palestinian killings. I have heard it mentioned indirectly at a lot of places, but haven’t found anything that explains this incident in a lot more detail.
Regards,
Adnann
@ Atheist…
Thanks for the sanctimonious and poorly written lecture but we were doing pretty well here on our own telling bigots to sod off….
…which reminds me…….sod off!
Atheist mian,
I can’t allow a nonsensical and idiotic post like yours to be posted here.
The headquarter of the Ahmaddiya movement is Rabwa in Pakistan and Islamabad near London. Just FYI.
Also… had you known a bit of history or understood anything other than the way you do you would see that there are more parallels between Turkey and Pakistan on the one hand … and Iran and India on the other… but you are unfortunately so blined by superficiality that you can’t see it.
correction (my post of June 29, 2009 at 3:41 am):
zia-ul-haq – helped kill 25,000 (perhaps 40,000) Palestinians = 2,500 (perhaps 4,ooo) Palestinians
although, the numbers i wrote in error are what PLO sources (incl Arafat) claimed.
@ BC…
thanks for bringing up that reference to Zia and black September…That is an important part of destroying the perception of ‘Islamic Legitimacy’ that he built for himself…
Sadly, I have brought this up many times only to find that I am not believed…I hope you have fared better…
Adnan syed
While I have not reserached the resources on the internet, you could try googling Black September, remembering that the group by the same name, more notorious for murderin gIsraeli athletes during the Munich Olympics, was formed to avenge/in memory of the Royal Jordanian Army’s massacre of the Palestinians. So any resources on the group might still talk about the ‘war’. brig zia-ul-haq was involved as commander of the 2nd Division.
sharon in case of sabra and shatilla could claim not doing any of the killing himself (or by the IDF). the IDF only allowed the christian militia to do it instead. zia planned and carried out many of the more brutal operations. as for numbers of dead, they were probably similar to sabra and shatilla… although the PLO claims the figures to be many times higher.
D_a_n
these fools in denial would have to deny a lot more than zia’s role in Black September to have any hope of saving zia’s ‘islamic legitimacy’. but i share your concern on how widespread this irrational thinking seems to be. the decision to allow brig zia to accept the king’s request, in complete contradiction of the mandate of the ‘training mission’ he was part of, was, allegedly, based on an ‘istakhara’.
@ BC…
‘Istakhara’ ..????!!!!! the worst part is that I find that entirely plausible 😦
Another
Naadir o Nayaab Theory by these apologists of the Monsters and Fanatics is that
Pakistan Army has intentionally sent Ahmadid or Qadianis and Ehle Tashie soldiers and Officers as they have no Mercy for the Soldier of Wahabbi Takfiris Taliban….
But One may ask these Mosters have killed and beheaded hundreds of peoples from Swat though they were not Ahmadi or Qadiainis and Shiaas….
Dr Jawwad well done,these liberal Mufties are born to developed only confusion nothing else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
kashifiat,
May be you can help clear the confusion.
I would like to ask the following questions:
1. You appear to use the word fascist in a derogatory sense.
Then you and the Doctor Sahib condemn the Ahmadias for no other reason but their beliefs.
Now I am indeed confused.
1. Who or what is a fascist?
2. Are Ahmadias not Pakistani soldiers? or is it that they are allowed to shed their blood for Pakistan but not be honored for their sacrifice?
3. Are the people who are fighting against the Pakistani army not the enemy of the Pakistani people?
4. Lastly since there is so much confusion going on in the world about the Ahmadyias, do you and the good doctor sahib or your kind have a final solution to clear this confusion?
Regards.
We must also consider why Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, that champion of Islamic Unity and Palestinian Cause, chose Zia ul Haq as the army chief despite his role in the Black September massacre… Is it because he had that dossier and Bhutto thought he could control him?
@Gorki
As for as the geographical boundaries is concerned
Anyone with any religion can act as a soldier…
But for The sacred Ideological boundaries…This mission can be performed only by the true Muslims…
Am irritated with the News abt the Monsters….
“Dehshat Gard Musalman Nai Hosaktey,Yeh Kam koi Musalman Nai Kar Sakta”
Baitullah,Fazlullah are the agents of Yahood o Hunood….Israel,America and India…
Man! I belong to Swat,I have heard many persons,from the villages of Muslim Khan and Fazlullah, They are practicing Muslims,When Muslim Khan Stayed there,They have seen him all time saying prayers or reciting Quran…
How An Ahmadi or Qadiani can be a savior to sacred land…
Ok this post proves that Qadyanis are still busy to kill Muslims all over.
“still killing Muslims”
Pray tell how you came to the conclusion that Ahmadis have been killing Muslims from this post which documents the martyrdom of a Pakistani soldier ambushed while patrolling Pakistan’s territory.
Last I checked Ziaul Haq the butcher of Palestinians was NOT an Ahmadi but was the high priest of Wahabi Islam. And General Tikka Khan was also a proud Pushtun Muslim… and please correct me if I am wrong but Jamaat-e-Islami and Al Badr had no truck with Ahmadi jamaat.
In 1947 Ahmadi Jamaat suffered heavy casualties at the hands of Sikhs and Hindus for Pakistan.
So genius tell us how you’ve come to this brilliant conclusion.
Aliarqam, YLH
This post has been enlightening yet very discomforting. Although I had been vaguely aware of the fact that the traditional followers of Islam contested tenets of Ahmadis beliefs I had no idea about the degree to which this sect was shunned in Pakistan.
That a sad post honoring a hero who died in the service of the country; a war that still goes on and threatens the existence of a nation) could be turned into a forum for spewing venom against his community says a lot as to how quickly we humans can be brainwashed into hating another by a state sanctioned bigotry.
I guess this is what Nazi Germany must have looked like in the early days of the third Reich. This is a sad moment for me when I had the, sickening realization that racism and bigotry as an ideology did not end with the defeat of Axis powers but is an integral part of us humans; all it needs is a small nod and a wink from the established state and it rears its head like a phoenix. I don’t know how many Ahmadi haters there are in Pakistan but the fact that they show up in numbers on a relatively enlightened site like the PTH makes me fear that there are a lot.
The only saving grace is that such moments brings out the best in others like the gentlemen addressed above. YLH may has been attacked by many and he may have many faults but keeping quiet in the face on cruel intolerance and bigotry is not one of them.
I salute you sir.
My only suggestion (and you are free to disregard this) :
If you do not delete the posts of Ahmadi haters (unless they are openly abusive) it will give you and others like you to engage these people in a debate and demonstrate how foolish their set ideas are.
Perhaps it may inspire some second thoughts in them the next time they attack anotherr human only because of his beliefs.
Remember, a bigot is certain of his position and thus inflexible, with a little intellectual room to manouvre. A liberal and open minded person OTOH is constantly questioning himself and thus somewhat uncertain but also more flexible.
If in a debate you can make some one opposing you only a little bit certain of his position, then you have won.
I may even venture to suggest a goal for indomitable liberal and staunchly secular spirits like you:
To instill doubt where there was none before. 😉
Regards.
As many times before, I beg forgiveness for the many typos; (I blame the bad hand-eye co-ordination when I am typing in a hurry) ;-).
The following correction is very important to make sense:
..If in a debate you can make some one opposing you only a little bit less certain of his position, then you have won.
Yasser Pai,
In a sense I agree with Gorki sahib when he says “If you do not delete the posts of Ahmadi haters it will give you and others like you to engage these people in a debate and demonstrate how foolish their set ideas are.”
It is sometimes better to let hate posts stay posted becuase it shows up the author for the narrow minded bigot that he/she is.
Regards
All the discussion related to Ahmadiyya faith did not add any value to this blog or to your readers. It is all useless talk and smoke and no meat. If Mr. Jawwad and others want to discuss the issue then I don’t think this blog can help them to present their position fully. They should find other avenue and place to blast off their hate at each other.
This is regarding hate comments of the Dr. Jawwad & Company. Readers and moderator of this blog has to decide what they would like to see.
The first question you should ask is, whether the comment(s) is related to the subject discussed in the post or not.
The second question you should ask is, does it add any value to the blog contents or is it of any value to readers.
Unfortunately, answer to both questions is ‘No”.
May I also ask the readers to find out more about Generals. Akhtar Malik, Abdul Ali Malik and Iftikhar Janjua.
@Lutf
I am a little puzzled at your suggesting that we find out more about these three distinguished military gentlemen.
They were all members of the Ahmadiyya community; is that what you wanted to underline? In historical terms, they have a special place in military history, all three of them, and two of them also share a poignant matter in common.
There are other factors that they have in common; I am not sure to which aspect you are drawing our attention.
Please could you clarify?
I am against Qadyanis and their views and their religion but these Qadyanis were part of Pakistan Movement where as mullahs of deoband and Jamat e Islami were against Pakistan, that was the reason Quaid e Azam made a Qadyani First Foreign Minister of Pakistan.
But in a country there are several groups of people live and Qadyanis are as equal citizens of Pakistan as people belong to Jamat e Islami
Gorki, good questions that you had posted on June 30 to the learned Dr. Jawwad and Kashifiat, or their clear-headed cohorts who would like to see nothing but purity in this world in the shape of their own Islam. They come out with loud rhetoric about how the liberal world is ignorant and confused; then come up with disjointed statements on what to do with minorities who lay down their lives for their own country.
And they tend to go AWOL when confronted with simple questions to explain their point of view. It has been three days since you posted those questions and I have yet to see the bellicose Doctor and his ilk respond to even one of these questions.
It is a good indication of how an average Pakistani is severely conflicted with his country being at war with a group that claims to derive its identity from the entity that a Pakistani derives most of his identity from as well; his religion.
Oh well, but that discussion may be needed to be discussed in another thread all together.
Adnann
@New Born Pakistan Forum
PTH has its policy written on the About page…
In a debate everyone has to share his views
Both your Questions are well answered by
regular Visitors Gorki and Majumdar in their comments above….
It was quite Clear with the title of that post what the writer wanna contribute to Us…then after someone(apologist for the Monsters TALIBAN) comes in disguise with false claims….He will be responded…
@banobashi,
I wanted the ahmadi bashers on this blog to see if they can find anything wrong with these generals. One of them was the martyred while on duty.
about dactar jawad & his views read on teeth maestro shaheed or halak.
he believes that imam e Qaaba is either corrupt or illeterate to tell ghazi brothers that they were wrong .
its not being ahamedi basically wat i believe is tht he was rejected by army he abuses pakistan army.
he abuses every soldier who embrace shihadat.
be it an ahemidi or not.
coz he believes in taliban, suicide bombing & illeterate jahil mullahs.
@Lutf
Dear Sir,
I doubt that they would find anything whatsoever wrong with these generals. Apart from Iftekhar Janjua being martyred in service, due to a helicopter crash, the highest ranking general of either Pakistan or India to die in service, General Akhtar Malik too died soon after his convenient deputation to Turkey in a road accident. His brother General Abdul Ali Malik of course died a natural death.
I was curious to know what you had in mind because Akhtar Malik and Iftekhar Janjua were definitely Pakistan’s two best generals; as an Indian writing on a Pakistani side, it sticks in my throat to say anything further, except to say that they would have been received with honour in any gathering of military men on any side of the border.
It also gives me a chance of pointing out that it was the hand of fate that saved us on two occasions from ignominious defeat. In explaining what I mean, it is necessary to go to some little detail; please let it be understood that does not in any way convey any approval on my part of the actions involved; they were militarily of the highest order, but led to war in one case. I have no reservations regarding Lt. General Abdul Ali Malik or the great Iftekhar Janjua.
As you presumably know well, in having cited their examples, Lt. General Akhtar Malik was in 1965 the GOC 12th Div., with responsibility for the entire Kashmir front; he had presented to the President, Field Marshal Ayub Khan, and to the C-in-C, General Musa, his plans for a ‘Plan B’ to Operation Gibraltar, a proposal for countering any setback to the original attack, Operation Grand Slam. These were approved at the highest level, although it is clear that General Musa was never very confident about them.
The plans were tactically and militarily of a very high order, taken together. Operation Gibraltar was based on two naive assumptions, one that the Vale would rise in spontaneous revolt if armed infiltrators created pressure on the Indian military, the second that the recently formed SSG raised primarily by General Mitha would perform wonders and neutralise the regulars of the Indian Army totally. These two assumptions are now well-hallowed Pakistani Army myths, although disproved again and again.
Some accounts, Altaf Gauhar’s among them, assume that Gibraltar was a GHQ plan, instigated by Z. A. Bhutto, who proved himself India’s strongest asset within Pakistan as early as 1965. He, aided and abetted by the then Foreign Secretary, Aziz Ahmad, is reputed to have convinced a large number of staff officers that fighting would not spread to the International Border, as big a miscalculation as any he was guilty of in 1971. It is possible that General Malik had nothing to do with it, gauging by his carefully crafted plan for implementation in case of its failure! One can speculate that he was too sensible to have anything to do with the two myths mentioned above.
The better of the two plans was Operation Grand Slam (better in the strictly military sense alone). In this, General Malik assumed that the SSG would have tied up substantial numbers of the Indian Army in the Vale but would be defeated; his plan was based on that, secondly, on the incredibly vulnerable state in which India had left her logistics with the Vale, thirdly, on a mistaken assumption that fighting would be confined to the LOC alone and would not escalate to the International Border. Operation Grand Slam was a slashing armoured drive straight to Akhnur in Jammu and Kashmir, which would have cut the Indian lines of communications with the Vale, and almost certainly have forced a cease fire in short order; the sheer pressure of logistics supplies to the inflated number of troops in the Vale would have guaranteed that. This was military jiu-jitsu, using the enemy’s weight to defeat the enemy.
Recall, if you please, dear reader, that Pakistan had just got the better of India at a very peculiar affair in the Rann of Kutch, where the two sides had clashed, and the Pakistani side had in general got the better of the exchanges, not to put too fine a point on it. Recall also that at that period, Pakistan had superior armour, a technically superior and better trained Air Force, and, a point infrequently mentioned, which is baffling, a much better artillery corps than the Indian side. The mood then prevalent in Pakistan was a matter of fixing exactly how many Indian soldiers, six or ten, equalled one Pakistani soldier. Exactly the mood in which we would like Pakistani generals on the eve of any outbreak of hostilities, thank you very much.
In the event, Gibraltar was a total failure. The Indian XV Corps, although led by a pessimistic commander, was propelled into action by a strong GOC-in-C, Harbaksh Singh, and effectively neutralised all the SSG infiltrators. The Indian counter-attack on the logistics centre at the Haji Pir pass caused panic in the Pakistani GHQ, with nightmares of Indians in Muzaffarpur before long. Operation Grand Slam was launched in order to relieve pressure on the over-extended 12th Div. right across the entire Kashmir LOC.
This plan nearly succeeded. It called for a drive to flow past points
of resistance by Indian formations, and, in a manoeuvre reminiscent of Liddell Hart’s expanding torrent, to drive straight for the jugular vein of Akhnur. If it had succeeded, as it deserved to, General Malik’s name would have been written in military history in bold letters (this does not constitute endorsement of the further expansion of the war after its initiation).
It is strange to record that an almost certain Indian defeat was averted by the decisive and strategic intervention of the Pakistani President and Commander-in-Chief, possibly acting in concert.
What I am about to relate is on record, and extensively written about by sound Pakistani commentators. Just when the attack on Akhnur was launched, on the second day of the attack, General Musa sought out General Malik on the battlefield, bundled him into the helicopter, and installed General Yahya Khan as GOC 12th Division.
If I was a religious man, I would have termed this divine intervention, strangely intervention against the more apparently religious state! Suffice it to say that this brilliant riposte by our assets within Pakistani GHQ paid off; the attack on Akhnur was ordered to be halted, while Yahya took stock; the opposing general, General Harbaksh Singh, practically stood everybody on their heads in an effort to get reinforcements to face the situation, and got extra troops in who blunted the resuming Pakistani attack.
Harbaksh Singh was always to remember this occasion as it being a very close-run thing. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that but for the brief interruption of 2 to 3 days while Yahya took stock and got a grip on the situation, the outlook for our defenders was very bleak.
Thank heavens for Pakistani top leadership; that has been a constant factor in our favour. Long may it flourish, as our military auxiliary, as much an integral part of the Pakistani military machine as its ‘freedom fighter’ in Kashmir.
Soon after, General Yahya transferred General Malik to an innocuous position in CENTO, in Turkey. He died there in a road accident. Before he died, however, in a letter to his brother (if I remember correctly, the very same General Abdul Ali Malik), he set down the facts as best as he could, in cold, unemotional prose, which render them all the more poignant. Words fail me when I try to express my feelings about the rank idiocy of the replacement of a good general right in the middle of his battle. On the other hand, why should I bother? Let me look at the offenders, Ayub and Musa, as two more unwitting benefactors of India in high places.
General Iftikhar Janjua was possibly Pakistan’s best general of all time. As a Brigadier, if I remember correctly, he was responsible for very successfully leading the PA troops in the Rann of Kutch affair.
In 71, General Janjua was GOC 23rd Infantry Division, and was assigned the task of capturing Akhnur. Now, it should be evident that after General Akhtar Malik’s giving us a fright in 65, we should have been well-prepared for any alarums and excursions in this sector. In fact, we were; a Pakistani attack in the identical area should not have done well. It did, solely because of its leadership. The attack led by Janjua was held off initially by very strong Indian resistance. He then regrouped, set a different axis of advance, and, leading from the front, visibly present for his leading echelons to see at all moments of crisis, pushed home the attack. It was singularly his brilliant leadership that was on display in 71. Again, fortunately for us, his helicopter was targetted by infantry fire, it crashed and burned, and General Janjua died of his injuries.
Abdul Ali Malik was a Brigadier in 65, and sent off on that notorious wild goose chase to the Jasser bridge (this after his brother had attacked Akhnur, and had been replaced in mid-battle, when the war had been escalated to the Indian border by an enfuriated Indian leadership no longer willing to confine hostilities to the J&K area).
When it turned out that the 1st Indian Armoured Division was attacking on the original axis that was thought to be likeliest, he and 24th Armoured Brigade were called back post-haste. As luck would have it, he converged on the Indian line of advance at Chawinda and gave battle. The Indian GOC, confronted by seemingly a large force of tanks appearing out of nowhere, immediately pulled his head into his shell, refused to commit his formation to battle and allowed the opportunity for 1st Armoured Div. to be lost. If the 24th Brigade had not acted with such desperate energy, and had not interposed itself in the line of advance of a much bigger formation with suicidal valour, Sialkot would have been lost to Pakistan.
I hadn’t made the connection that all three were Ahmadiyyas. The Malik family, as a matter of fact, was committed to Pakistan, and every one of that generation played a significant role in one way or another. All I can say from a military history point of view is that these three named included the two best general officers on the Pakistani side, and the third was a hero of a battle against hugely unequal forces, whom he held at bay by audacity and courage.
Several sarcastic remarks come to mind on contemplating the barbaric treatment that these patriots were meted out, but I bit them back thinking of Abdus Salam. After the great man won the Nobel Prize, he flew back to a wintry welcome in his own country. Then he honoured an invitation he had received by his very many Indian admirers, including those who were loyal to his Trieste Institute, by visiting India. Considering the welcome that he got in India, I shall say no more than this: if this is how you treat your best and brightest, you may not keep them very long.
Bonobashi:
Thank you for the unbelievable military history nuggets and writing style to match.
Enjoyed it very much.
You said:
“Several sarcastic remarks come to mind on contemplating the barbaric treatment that these patriots were meted out, but I bit them back…”
Try a ghazal:
Gulistan ko lahoo ki zarurat parri,
sab se pehle hi gardan humari katti;
phir be kehtein hain mujhse ye ahle chaman,
ye chaman to hai humara tumara nahi
I hope that Dr. Jawwad and Kashifiat sahib are listening.
Regards.
Bono,
Iftekhar Janjua being martyred in service, due to a helicopter crash, the highest ranking general of either Pakistan or India to die in service
Gen Janjua was a Maj General, if I am not mistaken.
The head of the Pakistan Army’s Med Corps- a Lt. Gen (I am forgetting his name) was blown up by a suicide bomber sometime in 2007. The garrison commander of Kohat a serving Maj Gen was killed in a chopper crash and many believe it was the handiwork of the Talibs.
Regards
Bono,
Maj Agha Humayun Amin (who writes under the nic pavocavalry on chowk) has often written about military affairs esp the 1965 War on chowk, including the Chawinda affair that you have elaborated on. I wish YLH cud persuade the gentleman to grace PTH too.
Regards
(Extract From Raza Rumi recent article in Friday Times on the depictions of post-partition society in Pakistan from a character of Quratulain Haider’s Novel “Aag Ka Darya”)
“The modern Kamal, an Indian who becomes a Pakistani, is where Hyder collates the reactions of her entire generation. Kamal, a migrant in Karachi notes six decades ago:
“Islam! Islam has had a rough ride here. If the Pakistani team begins to lose at cricket, Islam is endangered. Every problem in the world is ultimately reduced to this word Islam. Other Muslim countries resent the fact that the sole contractors of Islam are these people from Pakistan. Everything is being upholstered with narrow-mindedness. Music, art, civilisation, learning and literature, are all being viewed from the perspective of the Mullah.”
@Majumdar
Who hasn’t read AH Amin? I am a registered fan of his; my precis of Chawinda was extracted from his brilliant account.
Having said that, you have to read – you must read – Brigadier Z. A. Khan’s The Way It Was. The most sensational and hair-raising stories – read him on the exploits of Zia ur-Rahman, the knight of the two-flagged jeep, which is causing earthquake after earthquake in Bangladeshi circles. Or read him about the Gadgor Gallop (I forget who used it first; it may have been PAVO Cavalry).
There are only a handful of deep students of India-Pakistan military history, and Major Amin must be the topmost.
Thanks Banobashi for a detailed account. I was not expecting such indepth knowledge about the Pakistani Generals from anyone here, but you have done justice to the topic.
War is indeed a nasty business and as an Ahmadi, I abhore violence of any kind. But serving one’s country takes precedence.
I am sure that Ahmadis in India are doing their duty to India. I haven’t heard of any Ahmadis serving in the Indian army, but if I am correct the trend among India muslims is not in favour of joining the army or the police.
http://dilnawazinqalabi.blogspot.com/2007/05/red-mosque-on-bradford-moor.html
India has had a few Muslim generals. Lt. Generals Sami Khan and Zaki commanded the Corps in Kashmir. There were others too-one was the brother of the actor Nassirudin Shah and died in a helicopter crash. There have been two or three others that I know of but cannot recall names. An ethnic Kashmiri Muslim is also a serving General; son of a former IAS officer of Kashmir GN Naik. The earliest Muslim General was I believe one Major General Habibullah.
It is difficult to get percentages of various faiths since the Government does not give out such figures saying that they don’t maintain statistics by religion or caste.
Bonobashi: If by martyring you mean dying in combat then Gen. Janjua is the senior most of course. Two serving Indian Lt. Generals died in a helicopter crash in 1963 in Poonch Rajouri. These were the Army Commander Daulet Singh and the Corps Commander Bikram Singh.
I have not read up much on the battles of 65 but I believe that the Akhnur offensive was the reason why India invaded across the border in Punjab. This aborted the pressure on Chamb Jaurian. Chamb and Jaurian mean the same thing in Punjabi i.e. marsh or swamp or pond.
Some Pakistani discussants on their websites unaware that the India armoured division actually withdrew from battle, claim divine intervention in the shape of mounted warriors to save Sialkot.
@Lutf
Oh no, no, no.
I am not saying that they are not peaceful and peaceloving, please don’t get me wrong, but some of our finest soldiers and policemen have been Muslim.
The most prominent name (in recent years) in the Army has been Major General Afsar Karim, the counter-insurgency expert; Air Chief Marshal I. H. Latif was Air Chief, and a very popular one, who went on to become Governor of Maharashtra. The Marathas are slow to take to people, but they really took to him and Mrs. Latif. I can’t remember any prominent figures from the Navy, funnily enough. In the police forces, besides my father’s great fans, Safwi and Khan, Deputy Commissioners of his, and later retired as DIGs, the Commissioner of Police of Mumbai at the time of the Mumbai raid was Hasan Ghafoor. One of our few Param Vir Chakra winners (that is our highest decoration for gallantry) was Abdul Hamid, the Guards soldier, who got three tanks with his recoilless rifle before the fourth got him. I could just go on and on.
In older times, Major General Habibullah, who was universally liked, and was a particular favourite of Nehru, had very graciously treated my father very nicely, although he was a very eminent man and need not have been so attentive to a much younger man.
Having said that about military service, I notice that somehow all technical networking jobs in computers seem to be Muslims. My explanation is that they like the fixed and immutable principles of hardware management, and do very well at those. This really has intrigued me for twenty years, and one of these days, I have to go deep into it.
To be perfectly honest, I wasn’t really aware of the differences in belief among my Muslim friends, except that one is an atheist and quite fierce about it. There is no anti-Ahmedi feeling expressed in public, as far as I know, not like the occasional Sunni-Shia troubles in Lucknow and Calcutta, generally when the Taziya is taken out (for some reason, Sunni-Shia trouble is associated with these two places only, and I really don’t know why).
I hope I was able to express my deep admiration for the generals you had mentioned. You will not misunderstand me for wishing that they had been born Indians; it was Pakistan’s good fortune that they added lustre to the arms of your country.
It is not that war is admirable, and I perfectly agree with you there, but the conduct of brave and loyal men in times of war is certainly admirable. I had not noticed that the three leaders you mentioned were Ahmedi until you pointed it out; thank you for doing so.
@hayyer48
Just saw your mail; I posted before seeing it.
Yes, you are right about the phrase ‘martyring’; I was using it in the Pakistani way, since as you know, we don’t use the phrase in India. Someone told me off line that it is also used for those who have died in accidents while on service, in which case Daulet Singh and his companion would have been seniormost. I think Iftekhar Janjua was a Lt. General too, but am not too sure; will have to look it up.
The broadening of the front in 65 was precisely due to the hair-raising experience of Grand Slam. GoI decided that they’d had enough and authorised Harbaksh Singh, through General Chaudhuri, to open up the front. The shy reticence of 1st Armoured Division after being challenged and fought off by a single Pakistani brigade was very depressing.
Shahadat is a title given to a Muslim who dies while serving to defend his religion.
According to constitution of Pakistan, Ahmedis are not Muslims and thus this title can not be used for them.
Yes, the guy may have laid down his life but the title of Shahadat is not associated with the service to Pakistan Army and hence should not be used in this case.
I know you would now call the constitution illegal too, but what do you follow for rules and regulations? your own whims and desires?
is’nt it ironic that ahmadis were declared nin muslims by a civilian government led by ZAB !
many resigned from the army in disgust after this act of ZAB.
during zia era they were as a policy not allowed to go beyond colonel rank.
many thus opted for undeclared ahmadi status.
basically a punjabi religion like sikhs although does have a smaller ratio of non punjabis in pakistan.
eftikhar janjua was great not because he was an ahmadi.he was great because he was eftikhar janjua ! i think his mother was a french or german.as far as my research indicates he was not a religious man.a heavy drinker and one who indulged in all vices.a great field commander.when i mentioned him to general atiq ur rahman who was his senior in staff college atique was horrified and remembered him as a pervert.that does not decrease his military greatness.remembered by troops in chamb as a great leader.haad he survived rahimuddin,ahmad jamal etc would have retired as brigadiers rather than becoming three and four star.
i am working on eftikhars biography.
According to constitution of Pakistan, Ahmedis are not Muslims and thus this title can not be used for them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
…and what’s his reason? I am a Jew.
Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die?
Merchant of Venice: (Act III Scene 1)
@kimi
Point brilliantly argued. You obviously have a strong grip both on constitutional matters as well as on history.
I understand the constitutional position quite clearly after reading your post and my earlier confusion is now ended. It is obvious to me after your helpful interjection that Ahmedis were martyrs until 1978, and thereafter they ceased to be martyrs, and were merely killed in action.
I also apologise for implying that the term Shaheed applies to all Army (or Navy or Air Force) casualties. It is apparently available as an honorific only to those who are awarded the Nishan-i-Haider. As General Janjua was not awarded the Nishan-i-Haider, he is clearly not entitled to this in terms of Army usage. Only Muslim usage can apply.
It is not clear whether this applies with retrospective effect; does a man killed before 1978, say, for the sake of argument put forward by one ignorant of these complex issues, in 1971, shed his martyrdom, get thrown out of Jannat and have his fringe benefits removed by Q branch in 1978? Or does he continue to retain them on compassionate grounds?
interestingly while ahmadis are basically a punjab centred religions , the punjab has long seen ultra right religious movements like ahrar , khatam i nabuwat,sipah i sahaba , long before partition.
interestingly while the jamaat i islami condemned the kashmir war of 1947-48 the ahmadiyya formed a brigade called al furqan to fight in kashmir.
i am not into religion at all by the way.
it was 1973 or 1974 that they were declared non muslims.
interestingly nishan i haidar was awarded only to soldiers north of chenab and east and south of indus till 1999.all punjabis.since citations play a major role in these awards its likely that there were regional biases.
the first pashtuns and non punjabis were awarded a nishan i haidar while the army had a non punjabi chief in kargil in 1999.
and what a shame that the kargil nishan i haidar would not have been awarded had the indian opponents not insisted that sher and the NLI guy deserved it.all along the musharraf led generals were denying that those who died at kargil were pakistani soldiers at all.
That Ahmadi Al-Furqan Brigade that fought in Kashmir for Pakistan is a part of history that Jamaat-e-Islami wallahs will never admit to… just like they will never admit to Maulana Maududi’s declaration that war in Kashmir can never be jehad.
I am not taking a position one way or the other but merely saying that Jamaat-e-Islami has a policy of denouncing those who oppose militancy in Kashmir as “unpatriotic” … and also they claim that Ahmadis have banned “Jehad”.
BTW… Major sb would you please enlighten us on General Zia’s role in Black September Massacre which we discussed as a tangential issue earlier?
@Major A. H. Amin
Dear Sir,
Please accept my respectful greetings. As a guest on this site, I must leave it to the hardworked and generous administrators to welcome you, but you must know that it is an honour to have you contributing.
I have to confess that I am very unhappy with your last post. The reason is that it has destroyed a pet project of mine. There is a close friend of mine who is an ex-serviceman from Pakistan, and I have been stalking him for months, in order to flatten him into submission.
You will understand that as he was an air force officer, and as they are supremely confident of themselves and their skills, our conversations have sometimes led to some slight strain.
The idea was to gather a comprehensive list of the perhaps seven instances on which recommendations for gallantry were forwarded to the Pakistani military by Indian officers. Captain Karnal Sher Khan was the latest, but since this information is almost never formally recorded, I have been making heavy weather of the others.
At any rate, now my cover and my stealthy approach has been blown and I must openly inform my friend that he will soon be subjected to a barrage from which there is no escape.
The second consequence is that henceforth I shall examine every posting of mine very carefully, and as far as possible avoid public exposure by avoiding any military reference to the period in which you have earned your reputation. In that way my spurious reputation can be preserved intact for a few days longer.
I look forward eagerly to your interventions.
With sincere respects,
bonobashi
black september as you know was a US Jordanian plan to roger the PLO.It has been asserted that zia had been cultivated by US intelligence while on course in USA in 1950s.
he violated his terms of duty and on his own volunteered to go out of the way in black september.he was reprimanded by maj gen nawazish later who stated in his report that zia was unfit to be officer.
he was saved by gul hassan who liked sycophants and by ambassador rahat chattari who was manipulated by jordanian and possibly american pressure.
interestingly he made fun of his benefactor gul hassan and called him a sod and a clown after 1977 in military dinner chat.
an air force officer states that while pakistan was at war zia insited that his luggage be flown in military aircraft while offloading military supplies from jordan to pakistan.
an intelligence bureau officer states that though zia was an arain his family migrated from saharanpur to jullundhur with the east india company establishing a cantonment there in 1845-49
it has also been asserted that jordans king hassan also lobbied for zia with bhutto.
@pavocavalry
Was the ambassador related to the Nawab of Chhatari, who was (I think) Prime Minister to the Nizam for some time, and represented him in various international conferences?
some rahat ali chattari from india .his family is based in karachi and hyderabad.this was 1970.he was rewarded by zia after he usurped power in 1977.
the incident may be read in memoirs of a pakistani diplomat by sultan khan
@kimi:
“I know you would now call the constitution illegal too, but what do you follow for rules and regulations? your own whims and desires?”
If we can condemn and not accept South African and Israeli apartheid why can’t we condemned this one and call it unacceptable? Wrong is wrong whoever does it.
It’s OK to completely ignore constitution when attacking Supreme Court or conspiring against sitting government with military generals and so on but the only time it’s a must to follow law and constitution to the letter when it abuses human rights and attacks dignity and freedom of its citizen. Pakistani constitution never comes in the way of wrong but always in the way of right.
@Majid
Brilliant!
@kimi:
“what do you follow for rules and regulations? your own whims and desires?”
You may want to ask this question to the politicians, generals and the mullahs alike. Even some judges too.
Why is it that Ahmadis are rigorously subjected to law and even that which violates their human rights?
PAKISTAN: Two murdered and 15 charged as discrimination against Ahmadis continues unabated
http://ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2009statements/1947/
But not the other way round?
PAKISTAN: No action taken against Geo TV presenter who incited Muslims to murder members of Pakistan minority on air
http://ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2008statements/1694/
i believe the ambassador was the son of the nawab of chatari. there were other officers there too (incl, for example, brig iftikhar rana later to lead the battle of sylhet), with maj gen nawazish leading the army mission and anwar shamim the air force. maj gen nawazish’s report as cited by mr amin above, makes zia’s role and the illegality of his actions quite clear.
as for what actually happened during battle, it is
1. difficult to know since there was no independent media presence in the refugee camps. however, it wasn’t for nothing that king hussain himself decorated zia for ‘services’ rendered to the hashemite kingdom.
2. less of our concern since the battle itself was for jordan’s survival as a sovereign country against, mainly, terrorists. and jordan was prepared to and did accept help from the israeli airforce to scare away the syrians when only an hour’s tank drive from amman.
the point was brought up only because that dr jawad fellow started talking of some stupid conspiracy theories.
list of ahmadi officers serving in the indian army was forwarded by ch zafrullah to the boundary commission and is contained in the four volume documents on partition of punjab published by punjab government
“when i mentioned him to general atiq ur rahman who was his senior in staff college atique was horrified and remembered him as a pervert”
too bad we can’t ask Janjua what he thought of general atiq.
i have researched the man in great detail since 1977.
regarding his personal life there was always controversy.not onl atiq ur rahman but many others thought like this.his personal morality did touch some taboo issues in the society.this is borne by his record in AG branch.
he remained a bachelor and had some unorthodox sexual preferences.but so did mustafa kemal always syphillis ridden,or petain always womanising.this does not diminish his stature.
however above all this his professional side was brilliant including command of 6 infantry brigade in rann of kutch and later in grand slam.his command of 6 armoured division and finally his conduct as 23 division commander was outstanding.
the most detailed account of his epic battle of 1971 was written by his GSO 1 Saeed.
his accidental death in a helicopter accident due to third degree burns was a great tragedy.
If Arabia were Hashemite instead of Saudi how much difference would it have made to the contemporary world?
@hayyer48
For the rest of the world, lots. No money flowing out in such copious amounts to questionable organisations, no desiccation of a major religion, no covert support to terrorists (perhaps).
For the local scenario, with Indus facing off Ganges and Cauvery and Brahmaputra (I’m not sure of the exact formulation in riparian terms yet, it’s a young historiography yet), none at all. Jordanian/Hashemite planes would have been flown down to Sargodha in time of trouble, planes, and ships, and major armoured components would have been purchased from Germany and re-sold to Pakistan for 10% of the purchase price, or, better still, handed over for maintenance as they proved too difficult to maintain and even to operate (try navigating a frigate across the Rub-al-Khali).
India would have been dealt with politely at the diplomatic and international level, and pegged up on the clothesline to dry if hostilities broke out, the Crown Prince would have played polo in Karachi, and hunted bustards in the Makran Coast. No change. We can be as secular as we like, as fair as we like, we still won’t get the time of day.
Let’s face it, until we win over Pakistan to a friendly relationship, doing whatever it takes, the Arab world won’t have much to do with us, except giving us the privilege of putting up the fireworks display on the ruler’s birthday. A friendly Pakistan remains the key to security on the west. Lage raho, bhaijaan. We need them more than they need us.
It is not new ahmadis serve for pakistan
LT gen Akhtar hussain malik Hj
LT gen abdul ali malik sj hj
MAJ gen iftikahr janjua sj saheed
Air marshal zafar ahmed ch
Air commodor imtiaz ahmed bhatti sj
Sq leader muniruden ahmed shaeed sj
its long list my two relatives r serving in swat opration one is brigade commander and one is lt colonel .May allah bless mj mahmood soul.
Martyrs of a country are undoubtedly martyrs. What they religiously believe is a different thing.
Salam brothers,
Allah has given us some freedom in this world to choose whatever religion but human is innately curious. Whatsoever religion or sect you guys join, first make a research through it and then adopt. The Qadianis (Ahmadis) have their own beliefs and paths, I read and heard some of their scholars but there is no solid reasons to believe their carvings. I hope every by birth Ahmadi should first read their pioneer named Ghulam Ahmed from Qadian. I hope you will be clear of his Ahmediat. All based on egocentricism and try to make himself as idol and very pious man (even call himself prophet and in some places God). I think its better that you people read your own literature (Ahmedi or Qadiani Literature) vs the literature of “True Islam.”
(even call himself prophet and in some places God).
Asad, you obviously haven’t been reading Ahmadi literature. Can you pin point where he has called himself God?
Dear webmaster PakTeaHouse
Please watch the comments. And if offensive, delete immediately as your responsibility.
Spiritual leaders are more respectable ( or as rerespectable as) ones father and mother. But sometimes the idiots throw in their dirty words for other’s spiritual personalities just to obtain “sawaab”” from Allah.
Major Marhoom was indeed a Shaheed within the followers of Ahmadiyya Sect. If others do not class him as a Shaheed, that is not Ahmadis’ problem.
If Ahmadis believe themselves that they are Muslims, that is their belief which others cannot change by just calling them non-muslims. If non-ahmadi muslims believe that Ahmadis are not muslims, that is their thinking, and is not acceptable by Ahmadis.
@bonobashi
July 3, 2009 at 8:05 am
Banobashi, some thing about 1965 war which you may not be aware:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement predicted in 1905 that:
“Shastri’s Prediction Turned Out Wrong”
(Prophecy of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian)
India’s Bid to Capture Lahore and the Rout of Her Forces Foretold Sixty Years Ago
The Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, in a Vision on April 29, 1905 was shown a glimpse of the events of the fateful September 6, 1965, winding up with a note of happy tidings:
“Shastri’s Prediction turned out wrong”
The Vision goes on:
“God says I will quietly come with My armed forces at a time when no one will have the least inkling of the coming event. Most likely it will be in the small hours of the morning or after some part of the night or there-about.”
It is now an open secret that only one day before making assault on the city of Lahore, the Indian Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri made a prediction before his Assembly that he would be able to announce to them a good news within twenty-four hours.
It is also known that the Indian Defence Minister and Commander-in-Chief of their army had told their friends that same day, the September 5th 1965, that they would be having drinks in the Lahore Gymkhana the following day.
You may check the complete article:
aaiil dot org backslash text backslash drm backslash mga backslash shastri dot shtml
@bonobashi
July 3, 2009 at 8:05 am
Banobashi, some thing about 1965 war which you may not be aware:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement predicted in 1905 that:
“Shastri’s Prediction Turned Out Wrong”
(Prophecy of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian)
India’s Bid to Capture Lahore and the Rout of Her Forces Foretold Sixty Years Ago
The Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, in a Vision on April 29, 1905 was shown a glimpse of the events of the fateful September 6, 1965, winding up with a note of happy tidings:
“Shastri’s Prediction turned out wrong”
The Vision goes on:
“God says I will quietly come with My armed forces at a time when no one will have the least inkling of the coming event. Most likely it will be in the small hours of the morning or after some part of the night or there-about.”
It is now an open secret that only one day before making assault on the city of Lahore, the Indian Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri made a prediction before his Assembly that he would be able to announce to them a good news within twenty-four hours.
It is also known that the Indian Defence Minister and Commander-in-Chief of their army had told their friends that same day, the September 5th 1965, that they would be having drinks in the Lahore Gymkhana the following day.
You may check the complete article:
Shastri’s Prediction Turned Out Wrong (Prophecy of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib of Qadian) [India’s Bid to Capture Lahore and the Route of Her Forces Foretold Sixty Years Ago]:
http://aaiil.org/text/drm/mga/shastri.shtml
Mr. Rashid:
You are not getting it. We can care less about what Mirza Ghulam Ahmed said sixty years ago, or what he dreamed of, what he ate, what he did not eat, or what he did at 9 pm each Friday.
Stop trying to make it some divinely inspired “I am more truthful, or on a righter path” beauty contest.
This is about any sect, with what ever beliefs, being entitled to the same rights.
I am disgusted by the sectarian hatred spread by the JI and its cohorts. Why? because, their divinity entitles them to look down upon others, and lower other peoples “humanness” in their eyes.
In the same vein, you are most welcome to take your sectarian views and your feel good religious examples anywhere else on the web. My understanding is that PTH does not stand for spreading sectarian views, but for making sure that sectarian views are inconsequential when it comes to state matters and policies.
Adnann
Mr AZW:
I did not want it to come the way you took it.
I just wanted to bring to readers information/ banobashi some thing about 1965 war.
Like others my close family members also served near the border in 1965 war.
I really can’t add to the essential core of the matter beyond AZW’s pithy rejoinder.
On a profane and worldly note, however,
1. There are many predictions, occurring in diverse places; my orientation (political and intellectual) does not permit much space for predictions or for such ‘sciences’. I read what you have written, but forgive me for not taking these things into account when writing history, or commenting on matters historical.
2. There was no ‘prediction’ made by Shastri that I can recall; do you have a source for this, other than apocryphal? Shastri was a self-deprecatory, very modest and humble man, and this does not seem in character.
3. The remark about drinks at the Lahore Gymkhana can be traced back to a Major General Niranjan Prasad. This general had a tragic history. Apparently (I am not certain about this, having mislaid the source where I read it) he was a pilot in the Second World War. He shifted over to the Army thereafter, and by the time of 62, was a senior officer. He was mauled in battle at that time by the Chinese, and appears to have lost his nerve. That was not apparent, and in the drive to rehabilitate everybody, except General Kaul, and pretend that nothing had happened, this general too was treated as if nothing had ever happened. He was relieved of command by Lt. General Harbaksh Singh. The full story is available in many authentic records, most of all in Pakistani sources. References are available if you wish.
4. I am not very comfortable discussing military history on PTH. Some of my best friends are strongly pacifist, and may take a dim view of this comment and others similar. The general intellectual tone and very high levels of comment also do not encourage me to exchange data on military matters here. I would be glad to explore these elsewhere in a more appropriate location. Please take this as an apology for not having responded promptly and directly in the first place.
@bonobashi.. I was reading the citation for Major. Shabbir Sharif (NH) and there is a very intersting incidence mentioned. One Major Narayan Singh attacked his post and called him to a duel. Singh lost and was awarded Vir Chakra. I wanted to know if there was an Indian version of the story.
The above question is also for pavocavalry.
Lutfullah:
I have never come across such a story. Military citations are usually concocted. Not all the brave win medals and not every medalled officer deserves what he is awarded. Military fiction is most usually found in battle histories.
Thanks for responding Hayyer. But both Narain Singh and Shabbir Sharif got military honors for the same battle. Sharif was killed a few days later.
Shabbir Sharif was a hero from 65 war and his NH was commended by Manak Shaw himself, who also belonged to FF Regiment.
An anti-ahmadi article has emerged in another Pakistani blog……….reply to this non-sense:-
http://www.pakspectator.com/yaum-e-khatam-e-nabuat/
@LutfulIslam
My apologies for not replying on time. There are various impediments, and until the 16th or 17th, I am afraid my capacity to respond intelligently is limited.
There are “friends” who will add that this is not a phenomenon restricted to that period.
I will do my best to investigate this further through my friends in the forces.
@banobashi,
Thanks for responding. I will wait for your opinion later this month.
You Qadianis are talking about holding intellegent conversation??? wow… jhottay pe Allah (swt) ki maar!! You believe in a (false) prophet who didnt know if he was a man or a women!! he claims to be Maryam and then to get pregnent from himself and then come out of himself (or herself) to become christ!! wow!!!
Further how could even you qadianis call this malo’oon amry major a shaheed??? didnt your (kazaab) maryam or christ or mahdi whatever you call him i call him a lier tell you that jahad his haram now? or is it only the white ass that you guys are fond of linking? while you want to fight the muslims!! If jihad is haram there can be no shahadts and no fighting… so as per your own twisted religion i urge you to declare this non follower of qadianism (Major Afzal Mahmood and the two others who died in 65 war) as non qadianis and put up a strong protest against them and all such qadianis who are defying mirza qadiani orders (that jihad is haram now!!) by talking part in fighting and by being in military!!
And you are right the prime ministers decision in 1974 was not correct, the prime minister or the mullahs should have pushed for giving capital punishment to all qadianis or whosoever claims to be qadiani (as the qadianis are murtids), rather then just declaring them as non muslims!!
Dr jawwads your efforts are much appreciated… these offsprins of devil will not understand even if they know in their hearts the truth!! you dont have to read Naomis book, these qadianis in their own books have written about their establishment in isreal and even the location of their mosque there! and their services to their Bristisher masters!!
You try to be called muslims so that you can live within us and convert people through your deceptions…. but if you think of yourself as muslims than why dont you pray in normal mosques? and why was maloóoon Zafrullah standing with non muslims in the jinaza of Qaid-e-azam rather then praying for the great leader along with other muslims?
all readers please add malooo’oon where ever the word qadiyani or mirza qadiyani or any references to them are appearing!!
Dear Truthshall prevail,
Ch. Zafrulla attended Jinnah’s shia funeral. He didn’t attend the Osmani led funeral because Osmani didn’t consider him a Muslim.
The rest of your post speaks for yourself. Not everyone who disagrees with your ridiculous comments is a Qadiani by the way.
And i see that the moderator of this blog is a qadiani who deletes all posts to which he or any of the qadianis have no answer!
so are you saying that shias are non muslims? or is it a sharia ruling not to pray behind some one who is himself a true muslim but thinks of you to be a non muslim?
or simply put you dont have a good answer?? and try solving the jihad riddle!! 🙂 I am eager to listen to your answer on the jihad part!!
And please dont try to apply twisted meanings to my words, i never said zafrullah didnt attend Jinnah’s funeral…
my question was why didnt he pray? and why did he prefer standing with non muslims?
If the imam thought he was a non muslims what better way to prove he was a muslim than to pray with all the other muslims?
Now you are confusing yourself. Zafrulla chose to pray with the Shias in a funeral held by Fatima Jinnah for the Quaid-e-Azam who was a Shia. Shias are as Muslim as anyone else.
And which of your posts has been “deleted”? Please point out.
Btw… how ironic for those crooks who called Jinnah “kafir-e-azam” in his lifetime are now whining about Zafrulla not praying behind that Usmani fellow…
This is shameless hypocrisy on part of the Mullahs.
No please dont try to avoid questions by introducin new stupid arguments no body mentioned kafir-e-azam and it is not the topic, its your attempts to divert attention
1) Answer the jihad question!! is jihad allowed in qadianism? if yes then was malo’oon mirza qadiyani wrong in prohibiting it? or is it not allowed? then all the propaganda and fanfare about these jahannumi shaheeds is wrong?
and also answer my question that
2)is it a sharia ruling not to pray behind some one who thinks you are non mulim?
verily falsehood is bound to perish and truth is bound to prevail!!
Allah SWT says in Surah 17-Al-Israa – Ayat 81 “And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish”
And its not the hypocrasy of mullahs it is the hypocrasy of qadianis who want to be called muslims yet refuse to pray in muslim mosques!!
and your suggestion that he prayed in fatima jinnahs arranged funeral are also wrong and false hood as there is no evidence of zafrullahs participation there!!
and if you think qadianis can pray in muslim mosques then issue a decree or write atleast here, that all qadianis should start praying in muslim mosques from now on!!
My dear cereberally challenged friend,
As we explained to our readers, this is not a discussion about the theological beliefs or delusions of any sect or reigion.
We are merely appreciating the supreme sacrifice of a young man whose community is badly persecuted in Pakistan.
Now get a life. We know it is hard for those brought up on a diet of superstition, bigotry and closemindedness.
Truth bhai,
that all qadianis should start praying in muslim mosques from now on!!
Are Mirzaees permitted to pray in Muslim mosques under Pak laws?
Will you permit Mirzaees to pray in your mosque?
Regards
Stop avoiding the main question!! i am challenging the fact that it was a scrifice at all!! because he was going against his religious obligations…. to prove me wrong answer the jihad question!!
1) is jihad allowed in qadianism? if yes then was malo’oon mirza qadiyani wrong in prohibiting it? or is it not allowed? then all the propaganda and fanfare about these jahannumi shaheeds is wrong?
and also answer my question that
2)is it a sharia ruling not to pray behind some one who thinks you are non mulim?
majumdar.. its not the question of us allowing it or not… dont try to mislead… you give your own opinion if you would do that or not….
constantly i m seeing you people taking others intent as excuses… dont do that you will be judged on your intent and not on any one elses thinking…
so from qadiani point of view…. say that all qadianis should pray in muslim mosques and post it on you rabwa and aliislam wesites so that every one can see that!!
and then see what happens to you!
majumdar..
Dont try to fool you self… I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT YOU SHOULD BE PRAYING IN OUR MOSQUES…. i m drawing attention of the reader to qadianis real views….
its not the question of us allowing it or not… dont try to mislead… you give your own opinion if you would do that or not….
constantly i m seeing you people taking others intent as excuses… dont do that, you will be judged on your intent and not on any one elses thinking…
so from qadiani point of view…. say that all qadianis should pray in all muslim mosques and post it on you rabwa and aliislam websites so that every one can see that!! you should have the courage to stand by you religion beliefs no matter how twisted they are!!
and then see what happens to you!
Truth bhai,
you give your own opinion if you would do that or not….
My opinion is that Mirzaees shud pray in Muslim mosques.
Regards
Truth bhai,
OK, I have kept my side of the bargain. Now will you let Mirzaees pray in your mosque?
Regards
you are intent upon lies and misleading… did i bargain with you? did i say that if you say this i will say this? post your name and address… if you have the courage!
it is qadiani policy not to pray in muslim mosques and that is why they have seperate mosques in englang also!! does any body stop you from praying in muslim mosques in england also? dont try to hide behind other people……
dont try to protect false hood when you know it is false hood….
what about the jihad question, you dont have an answer?
Truth bhai,
I think that Brit Mirzaees too shud pray in Muslim mosques, if the other Muslims not object that is.
And what is the jihad question, pls?
Regards
and the basic point remains that in 1948 there was no such limitation and zafarullah could have prayed behind a muslim which he didnt!! and preferred to stay with non muslims!
Truth bhai,
and preferred to stay with non muslims!
Which non-Muslims did Mirza Zafarullah Khan stay with?
zafarullah could have prayed behind a muslim which he didnt
Not true. He did pray in the Shia funeral for MAJ (pbuh). Now of course it is very much possible that in your opinions, Shias like Mirzaees are not Muslims!!!
Regards
read above for the jihad question…..
and for prayer was my question abt your opinion if brit qadiyanis should pray in muslims mosques?
my question was that why do they have seperate mosques?
and you have (with some success) tried to make it a debate about prayers whereas my original point was that WHY ZAFARULLAH DIDNT PRAY IN QAIDS JINAZAH!! he didnt and preferred to stay with non muslims… so now you should have no objections to being declared as such!
and do you know as per Pakistani law it is illegal to propogate qadianism? or claiming to be muslims? punishable by atleast 3 years in prison!
nobody asked for your favours… go to a country that allows you stupid religion but staying in Pakistan follow the laws of Pakistan!
Truth bhai,
my question was that why do they have seperate mosques?
Dunno. Never been to Britain. Maybe ‘cos Brit Muslims too dont want Mirzaees to pray in their mosques.
WHY ZAFARULLAH DIDNT PRAY IN QAIDS JINAZAH!!
He did. In the Shia jinazah
he didnt and preferred to stay with non muslims
Which non-Muslims did he stay with?
… so now you should have no objections to being declared as such!
Assuming that MZK was wrong in nt praying in the Deobandi jinazah. But why shud today’s Mirzaees pay for MZK’s sins?
and do you know as per Pakistani law it is illegal to propogate qadianism? or claiming to be muslims? punishable by atleast 3 years in prison!
Yes, I do.
nobody asked for your favours… go to a country that allows you stupid religion
Well, sir, I do follow a religion which has ample stupidity in it. And my country does allow me to practise it.
but staying in Pakistan follow the laws of Pakistan!
I am sorry I have no intention of obeying Pak’s laws. What are you going to do about it?
Regards
the fact that he prayed in MAJ funeral is an undocumented lie you are fabricating! and please dont try to identify yourself with shias…. or try to bring them into the debate…..
they believe in kahtam-e-nabbuwat and they donot not believe in any kazab like mirza qadiani who didnt even know his gender and writes in his own book abt him being mary and then getting pregnent himself and then giving birth to himself….and then taking birth as christ!!
and who in his books brags abt his services to the britishers… and in the war of indepence claims to have provided britishers support against the masses of subcontinent (Allah knows how many murders of muslims are on his filthy hands)….
and also claims to have received and put on record three certificates from the british government appreciating his services…
who are you guys trying to fool? trying to constantly turn the conversation around evading the real questions and introducing other sects and facts?
I think i have made my point and any one who reads can easily understand your craft ways of avoiding the real things and debating about things out of context.
Dunno. Never been to Britain. Maybe ‘cos Brit Muslims too dont want Mirzaees to pray in their mosques.
you think your religious practises should be governed by wht other think?
WHY ZAFARULLAH DIDNT PRAY IN QAIDS JINAZAH!!
you are agian trying to take the debate away with irrelevant point the fact that he did not pray in a muslim mosque is because of qadianism and not because of his own beliefs…. go and read brahin or khazain the words of the kazzab mirza qadiyani….!
and do you know as per Pakistani law it is illegal to propogate qadianism? or claiming to be muslims? punishable by atleast 3 years in prison!
Yes, I do.
nobody asked for your favours… go to a country that allows you stupid religion
Well, sir, I do follow a religion which has ample stupidity in it. And my country does allow me to practise it.
but staying in Pakistan follow the laws of Pakistan!
I am sorry I have no intention of obeying Pak’s laws. What are you going to do about it? nothing…. if you are in Pakistan my fact is already established in all who read this!! and if you are not your true feelings about the coutry are expose and your false propaganda of loyal pakistan loving qadiyanis is lost!!! 🙂
Truth bhai,
the fact that he prayed in MAJ funeral is an undocumented lie you are fabricating!
I believe he did pray in the Shia funeral for MAJ (pbuh) But I am not an expert, maybe YLH can settle the issue.
and please dont try to identify yourself with shias…
No, sir I dont myself with the Shias.
As a matter of fact I dont consider myself a Muslim at all or my faith Islamic at all.
But that is besides the point. You have to ask individual Mirzaees do they consider themselves Muslims?
and also claims to have received and put on record three certificates from the british government appreciating his services…
So did many Barelvi, Shiite and Deobandi clerics. So ?
Regards
@truthwillprevail
You have; no doubt about that.
You are a single-minded bigot, with a single point agenda: to create trouble for someone who has made mincemeat of the arguments and the ranting and raving of your predecessors on this forum.
Obviously you are playing somebody else’s game, since you clearly cannot answer even a simple sequence of questions that Majumdar asked. Once the pattern you had been taught to learn by heart was broken, you had to shout him down. That’s all you have achieved; discredited yourself and your faction by demonstrating how stupid you are.
Truth bhai,
and if you are not your true feelings about the coutry are expose and your false propaganda of loyal pakistan loving qadiyanis is lost!!!
Sure I dont stay in Pakistan or intends to obey its laws, but how does that prove that Mirzaees dont love Pakistan?
Regards
Archea, Thanks.
Truth bhai let me ask you a question.
How does MZK’s not praying in MAJ sahib’s funeral (even if that is true) or my not liking Pak’s laws prove that Mirzaees shud not be called Muslims?
Of course, the converse is also true.
Regards
Archea maujamdar did not ask any questions….. he is just trying to divert the atention from the questions that i asked…..
every body can read my first post and then see wht you guys have been debating about… trying to avoid the actual questions….
if you are really looking for truth you will find it and if you just have to keep on beating about the bush with out getting to the real issues then you are at a loss yourself!!
I am reproducing the questions again if you can answer me… (and dont talk about what you think talk about what you can support from qadiyani texts)
1) is jihad allowed in qadianism? if yes then was malo’oon mirza qadiyani wrong in prohibiting it? or is it not allowed? then all the propaganda and fanfare about these jahannumi shaheeds is wrong?
2) was malooóoon mirza qadiyani a male or a female? if he was a male how could he be mary and get pregnant? if he was a female how could be be christ? and how could he be born from him or her self? and was he christ or was he mahdi?
Truth bhai,
I have not read the Mirzaee texts. I have only a superficial knowledge.
was malooóoon mirza qadiyani a male or a female? if he was a male how could he be mary and get pregnant? if he was a female how could be be christ? and how could he be born from him or her self? and was he christ or was he mahdi?
MGAQ sahib was referring to his several previous births or incarnations. In our faith that is permitted. Thus he cud be Mary, Christ as well as Mahdi and Krishna also as MGAQ sahib claimed.
Regards
Majumdar your question:How does MZK’s not praying in MAJ sahib’s funeral (even if that is true) or my not liking Pak’s laws prove that Mirzaees shud not be called Muslims?
Answer: This was not the argumentation for Qadiyanis not being called muslims, it was rather a fact told to convey and prove what qadiyanis actually feel and do….
they should not be called muslims and prosecuted because they believe in a kazzab false prophet whereas khatam-e-nabuwwat is the aqeedah of all muslims and agreed among all scholars…. there is ample proof of mirza qadiyani being a blatant liar read the books rohani khaziyen and brahin-e-ahmadiya to learn him boosting about his services to the british… and claiming to be mary, jesus, mahdi and what not…..
your not likin pak laws is again an example of what you people actually feel and wht is there in you hearts!
to establish that qadiyanis are non muslims and murtids there is ample evidence available and one doesnt need any evidence only reading the qadiyani texts can prove the point to any one who does it with an open and sincere heart!!
Truth bhai,
it was rather a fact told to convey and prove what qadiyanis actually feel and do….
your not likin pak laws is again an example of what you people actually feel and wht is there in you hearts!
How does MZK’s lack of participation in Jinnah sahib’s Deobandi janaza or my not liking Pak laws prove that Mirzaees are not Muslims or are disloyal Pakistanis?
Surely just becuase some Muslims allegedly flew a plane into WTC mean that all Muslims have terror in their hearts
Regards
well majumdar as you know in Islam there is no previus birth or incarnation concept… hence your argumentation is incorrect and wrong….
had you been living in maloon mirza qadiyanis days may be he could have taken this incarnation idea 😀
As you have no idea about the discussion let me tell you:
the ahadeeth of the Great and last Prophet sent by Allah sayyidina Mohammed (PBUH) specifically tell us that christ will return to earth in the times of imam mehdi and the whole earth will be filled with Islam and the force of the Mahdi AS and Christ shall beat the one eyed dajjal who will be leading the evil forces at the time…. (here there is no reincarnation… but these people will come in reality…. Jesus will desend from the heavens on a mosque with white minarets in Syria)
do you recall any such global event taking place in history? neither has islam until now become the dominant religion with muslim khilafah all over the globe as promised by our beloved and the final and last Prophet (PBUH)?
The ahadeeth on the Prophet (PBUH) state all the facts clrealy without ambiguity and clearly state that there will be no prophet after him (pbuh) except Jesus AS who will not come in the capacity of a prohet but int he capacity of a follower of our beloved prophet (PBUH)
A liar just saw the opportunity to declare himself Jesus and Mahdi and mary to get some worldy gains!!
Lets not start a theological debate here… i think the facts are clear to every one who reads…
you have been debating on some thing you had no knowledge of!!
Typo,
“does not mean”
Regards
majumdar referring to your message above my last post —- you have again introduced some thing highly irrelevant and out of context —–
Truth bhai,
you have been debating on some thing you had no knowledge of!!
I have never claimed to be an expert on Islam.
Regards
Btw, is this ahadeeth of the Prophet (pbuh) duly authenticated. I understand that many of the ahadeeths are not accepted by all Muslims.
Regards
Truthwillprevail
PTH is about tolerating everything except intolerance. as for a ‘debate’ between one kind of bigotry against another… you’ll find yourself more at home, and might even get a good ‘debate’ going about your questions whether you get any answers or not, on the sunni forum or the qadiani equivalent of it. here, no one is interested in that kind of waste of time.
The claim that Ch. Zafrulla prayed in the Shia funeral for Mr. Jinnah (who the Sunni Muslims like “truthshall prevail” called “Kafir-e-Azam” btw) is only as true or untrue (and documented or undocumented) as the claim that Ch. Zafrulla did not pray for the Quaid in the Sunni funeral.
Then the loser says:
“do you know as per Pakistani law it is illegal to propogate qadianism?”
Wow I did not know this… Now I am not sure how Majumdar or myself are “propagating” Qadianism but here is what the Islamic CONSTITUTION of Pakistan says:
every citizen has the right to believe, practice and propagate their religion
every religious denomination/sect has the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions
Article 20.
majumdar
i forgot to make an exception for your curiosity about such curios. 😉
By the way… by abusing this Mirza Qadiyani fellow, Truth mian is violating Sections 295 and 295 A of the Pakistan Penal Code….
Because Mr. Mirza is considered a founder of a separate religion by the majority in Pakistan… and 295 calls for punishment of no less than 2 (or is it 10) years… under law… in the same jurisdiction that punishes Qadiyanis for posing as Muslims.
Ah … the irony.
Yasser,
Then I think you will be failing in you duty as a good Pakistani citizen if you do not get Truth bhai prosecuted under Sec 295.
Regards
All lies… read the Qadiyani act …..
and maujamdar another thing u mentioned incarnation… the lies of the fool and malooo’ooon mirza qadiyani cannot fit the incarnation concept as Mary and Jesus AS existed at the same time… so as per reincarnation he could either be mary or Jesus!!
Believe calling a liar a liar is no offence specially if you can prove each and every word you are saying…..
if i contravened any Pakistani law by all means initiate the legal proceedings if you are right!!!
Bloody civilian… i was not intending to start a theological debate… my point ( which i believe is well established) that i do not agree to the article and the qadiyani contribution to Pakistan these are fake lies by a lier of a fake religion! and AS PER THEIR OWN RELIGION THEY CANNOT CALL ANY ONE SHAHEED AS MALO’OOON MIRZA QADIYANI DECLARED THAT JIHAD IS OVER AND SHOULD NOT BE DONE ANYMORE!!
Truth bhai,
so as per reincarnation he could either be mary or Jesus!!
There is such a thing called a partial reincarnation. For instance, Hindoos believe that Rama as well as his three brothers were partial reincarnations of Vishnu. So MGAQ in his previous birth cud have been incarnated as both Mary (RA) and Jesus (pbuh) simultaneously. God has mysterious ways.
Regards
Dear “Truth”,
Are you saying Article 20 of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan 1973 is a “Lie”?
(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part2.ch1.html
Also could you please produce this “Qadiyani Act” that you have asked us to read.
truthwillprevail
i couldn’t care less what you or any one else mean by the word ‘shaheed’. i know what it means to me.
as to your claim “i was not intending to start a theological debate”, if that ‘truth’ can prevail then i don’t know of any untruth that cannot. and there are other fora more eagerly seeking ‘theological’ debates.
as for you trying to deny that this brave young man dying for this country is your saviour, and that you owe him the greatest debt of gratitude, i’d have had a tiny bit more respect for you and your claim if you had the decency to not benefit from his sacrifice and move in with hakeemullah mehsud and wait for what is coming to him.
@Bloody Civilian
That is the worst part of it: that these holier-than-thou charlatans should sit and home and enjoy their peaceful and tranquil lives, while their despised Qadianis give their lives for that same peace and tranquillity.
maujamdar you are writing wrong reincarnation so why don’t you shut up if you know nothing … and to all the qaditganis trying to divert attention from main question … don’t bullshit tell us your position on jihad isn’t it banned if yes you cannot have a shaheed! if no mirza malooon was wrong
@Truthshaprevail
There’s not a single Qadiani who has replied you, and why should they? Who appointed you the guardian of other’s morals? And why don’t you look at the context? The Pakistan Army decides who is to be dignified with the name of shaheed, and who is not. There are rules laid down. If you don’t like them, take a gun, go to GHQ, and shoot the idiot who made those rules.
You are, to use an English phrase which is peculiarly appealing at this moment, barking up the wrong tree here.
In case you haven’t noticed, nobody really cares what you think, except that you are besmirching the honour to be paid to a soldier who died for his country. Which you did not, and which you do not seem to want to do, either, since that might interrupt your theological enquiries.
Ahmadis are a masonic conspiracy just like Pakistan and Jinnah.
@Tiberius
Tu to sala 108% pagal hai. Teri Masonic conspiracy – ki aisi ki taisi!
The spiritual leaders are much more dearer to their followers than even ones parents. When speaking or writing about ones spiritual leaders, you must not use swearing or bad language for them … do not speak bad words even for ones gods so that one does not use bad language about your God… I read a number of times in the above comments, somebody calling “Mirza Malooon”..
Mirza is someones Mahdi. If he is not our Mahdi, that is true, we can say that we do not trust his claims, but on the internet, like this… calling names is UnIslamic and against the teachings of Islam and its Last of the Prophets (S.A.W.)
DEAR WEBMASTER ! PLEASE EDIT THE COMMENTS BEFORE DISPLAYING.. SHUT THE IDIOTS’ MOUTHS.. WE MUST BE A RESPECTABLE COMMUNITY WITH HONORABLE WRITINGS ONLY.
Qadianis are kafir..! but I bet, none of you ever conveyed the true message of Islam to them for converting them back to Islam… WHY?
BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOUR SWEARING LANGUAGE… because preaching of Islam never ever contained bad words for ones spiritual leaders. We must show tolerence, good behaviour, Muhammadan way of TABLIGH !
Who is shaheed, who is not… Allah alone knows ! Not even the Army !!!
bonobashi
lets give thanks for small blessings, even if they be tiny… infinitesimal 🙂
My question still awaits a response.
@bonobashi.. I was reading the citation for Major. Shabbir Sharif (NH) and there is a very intersting incidence mentioned. One Major Narayan Singh attacked his post and called him to a duel. Singh lost and was awarded Vir Chakra. I wanted to know if there was an Indian version of the story.
My question to all…as a devouted muslim..i would like to ask all those up thr who are bashing ahmadis and calling them kaafir and whd not…do you guys think that Allah SWT is so not concerned Naoozubillah if a group is saying that the imam mehdi who had to come has arrived and that group is playing naoozubillah with the testiments of islam?..my question is that we really have to think …since it has been more then 100 years that these guys are in existence and now in abundance in countries….for even a second have we ever thought that what is their true picture and have we ever tried to ask any member of that jamaat this question and before asking tht we have to brainwash our minds wich is filled with all the filth frm our mullahs that ahmedis are zionist and whd not…i think none os us has ever tried to do that but very easily we sit here and bash them and suni sunaee batton ko propagate karna is very easy…..its creating doubt in my minds tht whd mullah and stupid ppl says abt them…since they are growing and its a fact adn they are successfull.. in every aspect of life…thay have thr own channel and thr members work unpaid fr tht channel…thr members work volunatarily fr thr jamat…all of thr fundings comes frm themselves…..I dont think tht God would let any group spread lies abt the fate of islam for so long…so may ppl claimed in the past tht they were imam mehdi but we dont know any alive today…they were all vanished with the span of time….but we as a so called tolerant muslim nation…still feel proud in rubbing kalima frm thr mosques and call it a property….i think its time tht we must realize tht we haev to fox ourselves and ask fro forgiveness frm Allah SWT and weep in front of him and ask him tht help us in chosing the right path….!!
Naser commanded four armoured regiments in the Pakistan Army, was shunted out for being an Ahmedi. Fought the 65 war as a civilian working for the Inter-Continental Hotels as Commandant of an armored regiment in Khem Karan. In 1968 Zia came to his house for lunch to thank him for putting in a favorable word to Gul Hasan that earned him his posting to Jordan. The meetings between Gul and ZAB took place in his apartment in the Rawalpindi Inter-Continental. Ali El Edroos accompanying Prince Hassan Bin Talal and Zia had lunch with him at the Lahore Inter-Continental when ZAB introduced Zia to the world as his pick for COAS at the reception in the Shalimar Garden, of course Edroos did not attend the reception. Hamid Gul visited him frequently in an effort to get in favor with Zia.
His eldest son was a fighter pilot in the PAF, and the younger joined the traditional family cavalry regiment, in the hope that their war record would some how bring back the respect due to the Ahmedis. Unfortunately there was no war during that period and he died of a stroke when his son was shunted out of the army like himself many years before.
@Lutf/
@Lutfulislam
It has not been possible to trace this incident, or rather, its Indian equivalent in any of the places to which I have access. I am sorry to have got nowhere. In case some information comes to hand later, which is so often the case, I shall certainly let you know.
It took a bit of time to look around and dig in, and I am sorry that there was so little result.
What we really need is an Indian PAVOCavalry. Unfortunately, he is one of his kind. As a civilian, even one with connections in the military, it is difficult for me to match him – or for that matter, a host of excellent writers both from Pakistan and India who are retired military people.
The Ahmedi beliefs had no adverse effect on the Muslims of Pakistan, if anything they were raising the bar in terms of civic and moral values as has been made quite evident from this blog.
The Ahmedi contributions to the Pakistan movement and its stability and progress thereafter were arrogantly ignored by the parliament and the army at the behest of the mullah doctrine.
Now the Ahmedis are on the sidelines having the last laugh while the gang of three have each others throat in a death grip.
There is still time to right the wrong, remove the draconian laws against the Ahmedis, absorb them in the mainstream of the Pakistani society and capitalize on the value they can bring to the table, maybe they can help Pakistan avert this impending catastrophe.
Of course Ahmediyat was an intolerable philosophy with the mullahs, their aggression was aimed to suppress intellect by imposing a ritualistic belief in Islam. They wanted everyone to wear that skull cap and serve their interest by acknowledging them as the custodians of Quranic interpretations. The system of religious teachers or imams in mosques gave them an all encompassing network and a formidable authority to the extent that even some of the saner elements developed a split personality, they were totally different people when under the influence of the mullah. This is what happened within the army as well, however, its beginning was due to a sinister political motive behind, the man in question was General Malik Nazir Ahmed, chosen by Jinnah to lead the Pakistan Army, but during his incapacitation and eventual death, the ensuing incursion in Kashmir, its debacle and the Rawalpindi conspiracy in which his name was mysteriously involved by Ayub, although he was in the U.K. during that time attending the Royal Defense College, insinuating that he was motivated by religious affiliation and not by Pakistan’s best interest. General Nazir was dismissed from service and Ayub ruled the country for the next ten years.
Gentlemen, let us not lose sight of the original topic of discussion “An Ahmadi Major lays down his life for Pakistan”. Let’s refresh our memories and examine the relevant questions:
Question#1: Was Maj. Afzal Mehmood a major of the Pakistan Army?
Answer: Yes
Question#3: Did Maj. Afzal Mehmood lay down his life for Pakistan?
Answer: Yes
Sorry I left out Q#2.
Question#2: Was Maj. Afzal Mehmood an Ahmadi?
Answer: Yes
After going through the discussion on this blog, it came to me that perhaps the more elementary and fundamental questions need to be addressed first, issues which if sorted out before discussing the martyrdom of an Ahmadi officer of the Pakistan Army, would save us from irrelevant debates:
1. Judgments on temporal matters aside, is it even within the scope of rationality for a mortal to issue a judgement on the spiritual state of another fellow-human?
2. On the religious plane, who is the Lord of Judgement – God or man?
3. If someone dies defending his country, is the sacrifice worthy of honour or of condemnation?
@Bin Ismail
May I have the honour of attempting to answer the questions you have so appropriately raised. In my opinion, and in reply to your questions:
1. It is most certainly not within the scope of rationality for any human to issue a judgement on the spiritual status of another. I for one, am entirely incapable of peeping into the heart of someone to discern his/her spiritual status.
2. I suppose this is one issue on which all religions agree. Muslims believe that Allah alone is the “Maalik-e-yaumid-deen” or Master of the day of Judgement. Jews and Christians believe Yahweh to be the Final Judge and Hindus believe this role to belong to Parmeshwar. Only someone with the unfulfilled desire of playing God, would want to assume this role. Muslims, moreover, are required to recite Sura Fatiha, in which this attribute of Allah is mentioned, in every single rakat of the prayers. How many more reminders are needed?
3. Anyone who dies in the line of rightful duty, such as defending one’s country, deserves to be honoured, regardless of his personal religious affiliations and regardless of which country he defended.
There is tacit discrimination against all outsiders, who are the insiders….those willing to punish the underdogs and deepthroating the bigdog.
Paying a heavy price for indulging in this barbaric instinct, so intricately intangled in the web of religious interpretations, that now at least outwardly the mention of this subject is taboo. Inwardly ofcourse the suspicions take on preposterous proportions, the object being sadistic subjucation of the ‘outsiders’.
@Khullat
Thank you for answering the questions I raised. I could not possibly have done a better job.
I have tried, though unsuccessfully, to rationalize the debate. I still am a loss to understand what precisely displeases the commentators who have submitted bitter comments:
1. that Maj. Afzal Mehmood Shaheed was a Major
2. that he was a Major of the Pakistan Army
3. that he laid down his life for Pakistan
4. that he was a Pakistani
5. that he was an Ahmadi
@Bin Ismail
Let me help you out once again. The commentators who have made bitter comments are unhappy because of option 3 “that he laid down his life for Pakistan”.
Pardon me for my little soliloquy.
@Midfeild Dynamo
This is in response to your words: “There is still time to right the wrong, remove the draconian laws against the Ahmedis, absorb them in the mainstream of the Pakistani society and capitalize on the value they can bring to the table, maybe they can help Pakistan avert this impending catastrophe.”
I would like to point out here, that this is not about Ahmadis – this is about Pakistan. It would only be right and just, to remember and mention some other unsung heroes of this country as well:
1. Justice Cornelius: Pakistani Christian – a jurist of international respect and standing
2. Cecil Chauhdry: Pakistani Christian – an ace pilot of the PAF and hero of 1965 air battle.
3. Prof. Jagannaath Azad: Pakistani Hindu – later on moved to India because he could not see Jinnah’s dream of a Secular Pakistan evaporating – the poet who wrote the first National Anthem of Pakistan upon the personal request of Quaid-e Azam, an anthem that was abandoned shortly after the death of Quaid-e Azam.
4. Justice Dorab Patel: Pakistani Parsi – a jurist of international acclaim and a man recognized for his sound judgement and uncompromised integrity.
These are just a few to be cited as examples. The list can go on and on. I’ve deliberately not mentioned the Ahmadi citizens of Pakistan.
Now, we require some honest introspection.Where did we go wrong? The fact is that while we started off with the sterling principles of secularism, we were soon derailed. We soon ungratefully forsook these golden words of our own founding father, uttered merely three days prior to our independence: “We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and ‘Equal’ citizens of One State.” [Jinnah, Presidential Address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, 11 August 1947]. In fact, if anything this proves that the first and foremost of all “Pakistani Unsung Heroes” is none other than Jinnah.
A diametrical change in attitudes is required at the level of the national thinking. A few draconian anti-Ahmadi laws or a few irrational clauses in the Constitution is not all that needs to be changed. The psyche of the people has to be changed, and this is going to require sensitization at every possible level.
This nation owes secularization to its founding father and to its posterity.
God save Pakistan.
@Nusrat Pasha.
Agreed, I knew one of them personally an epitome of a Pakistani citizen……
@Nusrat Pasha
May I respectfully add to your list of “Unsung Heroes of Pakistan” who remain unsung solely because of their religious beliefs:
1. Justice Cornelius: Pakistani Christian – a jurist of international respect and standing.
2. Cecil Chauhdry: Pakistani Christian – an ace pilot of the PAF and hero of 1965 air battle.
3. Wing Commander Mervyn Middlecoat: Pakistani Christian – a pilot of the PAF who laid down his life for Pakistan during the ’71 war.
3. Prof. Jagannaath Azad: Pakistani Hindu – later on moved to India because he could not see Jinnah’s dream of a Secular Pakistan evaporating – the poet who wrote the first National Anthem of Pakistan upon the personal request of Quaid-e Azam, an anthem that was abandoned shortly after the death of Quaid-e Azam.
4. Justice Bhagwan Das: Pakistani Hindu – a revered and renowned jurist.
5. Ms Mani Contractor: Pakistani Parsi – a devoted and committed educationist who contributed to the education of Pakistani young ladies.
6. Ms Deena Mistri: Pakistani Parsi – a devoted and committed educationist who contributed to the education of Pakistani young men.
7. Justice Dorab Patel: Pakistani Parsi – a jurist of international acclaim and a man recognized for his sound judgement and uncompromised integrity.
8. Raja Tridev Roy: Pakistani Buddhist – originally the Raja of his tribe in Bengal. A devoted Pakistani who migrated from his ancestral Bengal to Pakistan, after the creation of Bangla Desh. He served Pakistan as Minister and Ambassador.
@banobashi,
Many thanks for trying to get info on the matter. I hope some day somebody will write on this subject.
It’s interesting to note that the fact that an Ahmadi Major lays down his life, has attracted so much debate, while the martyrdom of an Ahmadi Major General stands conveniently forgotten. Maj Afzal Mehmood was not the only major of the Pakistan Army to die in action. Maj Gen Iftikhar Janjua, however, is the only general of the Pakistan Army, till date, to have died in combat. He laid down his life for Pakistan, during the 1971 war, on the Kashmir front.
We must remember, honour and celebrate all our martyrs of the past and present.
Iftikhar Janjua, when he arrived for his ‘O’, he couldn’t wait for the hovering chopper to touch the helipad, he jumped and began swishing his swagger in an uproar ordering his Brigade Commanders to get on with it. One of them later Martial Law Administrator, Baluchistan opted to conduct a court of Inquiry in Sahiwal to save himself from the FEBA and eventually became a Four Star General, the much revered………
Most Ahmedis that migrated are making a better living and enjoying more respect than they could have ever done so. Pakistan, however, will have to make do without their absolute contribution, some of those who have been left behind feel disillusioned and left out, even then there are some like Major Aslam right there in the fore front.
Good Luck Pakistan.
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Now Presently I m Muslim but I want become An Ahmadi Muslim. So Plz Give me Suggestion on my mobile no +92-3453212091 . Barkat Ali From Kotri
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