Lost Imaginations*

jinnah_with-fatima-and-dina2By Raza Rumi

Sixty one years have gone by but the creation of Pakistan is still a heated debate: contested, fractured and bitter. That history has been the preserve of the victors and the powerful is well known. But to spin and whirl the truth to the extent that it becomes empty and farcical is an art form practiced by the Pakistani state and its mock-historians.
In early January of this new year, a heated controversy entered the public domain. A famous Urdu columnist writing for the largest vernacular newspaper reiterated the widely-known fact that the pragmatic Mr Jinnah had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan and given up the demand for Pakistan in 1946. However, it was the intransigence of the Indian National Congress and the quest for absolute power by Pandit Nehru and his associates that led to the traumatic moment of partition.

To support this position, Dr Ayesha Jalal’s seminal work, ‘The Sole Spokesman’ was cited by the Urdu columnist. Dr Jalal, in her outstanding book, has captured the nuances of partition history and presented an interpretation that is unbiased and brings forth the complexities of the Indian Muslim community. This community was by no means the monolith Jinnah had to contend with.

No sooner was this column published than a barrage of protests appeared in the press, authored by holier-than-thou writers who thought that this was an insult to the concept of Pakistan and that Jinnah was determined on creating Pakistan come hell or high water. The debate intensified, and as is the case in Pakistan came down to personal invective and attacks on Dr Jalal. Among others, a key conspiracy theory articulated was that her supervisor at Cambridge University was a ‘Hindu’ who must have misled her to undo the foundations of the holy project called Pakistan.

This was a ludicrous charge and betrayed our penchant to undermine scholarship and history. Dr Jalal’s book, if anything, elucidates Jinnah’s towering personality and qualities of leadership and negotiation in full measure. Her book revisits onerous challenges that Jinnah faced in negotiating for the political rights of the Muslims in a post-British India. Like most historical events, Pakistan was not a project cast in stone or a divine scheme, as our mock-historians sponsored by the state and its moribund institutions would have us believe. I was quite perturbed as I followed this debate. Over the last two decades, one had thought, a more nuanced understanding of Jinnah had gained currency in Pakistan’s popular imagination. Alas, it remains nothing but a case of lost imagination.

The reason for this poverty of intellect and imagination is rooted in the distortion of history and its flagrant abuse by the ruling classes of Pakistan. Is it not clear by now who benefited the most out of Pakistan’s creation – the bureaucrats of United Pakistan, the mercantile class of Bombay and Gujerat, the feudals of Sindh and the Punjab, or the Pakistan Army? Popular support for Pakistan was widespread amongst East Bengalis who we were quick to dispose of, as they wanted a Pakistan that was plural, democratic, non-feudal and socially just.

Of course our official historians would not see this. They cast aspersions on anyone trying to unpack the mess caused by partition – its bloodline is as fresh as ever. Look at the state of Indo-Pak relations. The demonising of Hindus is as fervent as the demonising of Muslims by the Hindutva brigades in India. Jinnah was not of this ilk. His wife was a Parsi, many of his close friends were Hindus and his daughter married a Parsi and did not move to her father’s new homeland. Could anything be more tragic than this?

Jinnah certainly did not envisage the martial state, engineered to destroy India, that we are today. This applies to India as well, where Gandhi and Nehru could never have promoted a nuclear dénouement in the subcontinent. In several interviews, Jinnah talked of going to India for vacations, and even moving there after retirement. The properties in Delhi and Bombay owned by Jinnah were kept intact for this purpose. Contrary to popular distortion, Jinnah even accepted his son-in-law, and there is a small monograph, a young historian tells me, in a US library, that was authored by Dina Jinnah, in which she testifies to her father’s softening up towards his non-Muslim son-in-law, to whom he had apparently presented a cap.

Pakistan’s grand old historian K K Aziz who is unwell now and lacks any means of support to finish his important projects, told me how Fatima Jinnah’s little book on her brother had been censored by these very masters of state power. What was the fuss all about? Well, Fatima Jinnah had not been too kind about Liaquat Ali Khan and a few other heroes of the Pakistan movement. If anything, many of the heroes were rank opportunists, power-seeking fief-holders, who all jumped onto the Pakistan ship when it became clear to them that this was the land where they would make good, without competition from more qualified Hindus.

And the good times continue to roll. I want to index all the last [feudal] names of the 1946 Constituent Assembly members and see how their progeny keep on going in the centers of power. This is beyond tragedy and beyond farce.
Two chance meetings with Dr Jalal this winter were exceedingly rewarding. She talked of her new research with pride, intensity and much concern as to where Pakistan was headed. Dr Jalal is a fiercely nationalistic Pakistani and believes that Pakistan’s very survival speaks of its inherent strengths. But she also laments how the old colonial state has finally given way to multiple states and centers of power within the polity. In the coming months Dr Jalal is going to expound this thesis. But we see it all around us: Jinnah’s Pakistan is now a splintered riyasat – there are little kingdoms in the tribal areas, in the northwestern province, and in southern Punjab that continue to bleed society and defy public policy, making us a joke on the global map.

True, we inherited the worst of geographical locations and a ‘moth-eaten’ country to quote Jinnah. But by writing false histories and nurturing delusions of grandeur we have become a delusional society. We want Islam, modernity, the Taliban and Bollywood, all at the same time. We loathe America but the queues for American visas are longer than ever. We continue to search for our identity: we are by turns Central Asian, Persian and Arab and turn our backs on our closest approximation which is Indian. The one thing we know is that we are not Indian. We claim the Mughals as our own, but ignore the fact that most of them were secular and born of Hindu mothers. We love invaders and name missiles after them, but refuse to acknowledge that most Pakistanis were converts from lower caste Hindus.

There appears to be no discipline of history – academic or popular – worth its name in Pakistan. The great empire of missiles, jihadis and opportunists has left no space for independent voices, and scholarship is stymied by state pressure or its proxy goons masquerading as patriots. It is time to revisit history and speak up against decades of lies and constructed histories, if we are to reclaim our future.

Raza Rumi blogs at www.razarumi.com <http://www.razarumi.com/>  and edits Pak Tea House and Lahore Nama e-zines.

127 Comments

Filed under History, India, Jinnah, Pakistan

127 responses to “Lost Imaginations*

  1. Pingback: Lost Imaginations* | All Viral Emails

  2. Adnann

    The identity crisis that plagues Pakistan is a direct result of Pakistanis refusing to face the uncomfortable questions regarding its birth and its future.

    That is why the ideology of Pakistan is conveniently usurped by the opportunistic leftist or rightist leader, or a right wing religious ideologue. While I am constantly surprised by the lack of leadership among all the politicians that have graced our political landscape, the quality of the run-of-the-mill analysis by political commentators is astoundingly below par, especially in the Urdu language newspapers.

    Ayesha Jalal’s analysis is quoted several times on PTH before. And when we place the most fluid of those years (1938-1947) in the background, her conclusions seems very likely. Yet Pakistan has denigrated surely towards a state which seems to be clueless about its own purpose and place in the world. While the threat from India was real in the initial years, yet for Pakistan to develop itself based on an anti-India state was a sad development. Once 1971 debacle was complete, rather than working to strengthen the truncated state, we moved towards realigning with the militant Islamic faction to counter (who else) India, and gain strategic depth in the West.

    Reading Pakistani media today (and a special mention to its even mainstream Urdu newspaper), Pakistan seems to be in a hysterical state. This is certainly not a new phenomenon. Growing up in the 80s, I would read screaming headlines of “Pakistan under threat”, “Ideology of Pakistan under threat”, and “Pan-Islamic underpinnings of Pakistan under threat”. This hysterical state has stopped Pakistan from introspection. All problems in the world are conveniently blamed on India, America, and if possible Jews. Any piercing point of view becomes a product of Indo-Jewish lobby (case in point). While we decry the lack of leadership shown by successive leaders, every time I visit Pakistan, I have seen much of civil society complicit in supporting the failed policies that have got us here.

    Yet, I do believe that 60 years is not a long time in the history where a nation as complex as Pakistan to shed its historical baggage and move on. However to Pakistan’s credit, it still has a semblance of democracy, and a press which is a lot freer than more countries in the world. The process will take its time, yet the debate must continue. Until Pakistan faces its uncomfortable reflection in the mirror, and reconcile to the paradoxes inherent in its birth, it may never hit its full stride.

  3. What a heartfelt piece RR. My two bits would go strongly with those lines you wrote about denying original identities.Without a past,or with a manufactured past, the future can only be a lie or fractured at best.Pakistanis are not Indians but they are sub-continental people and not Arabs.I feel strongly that Arabs have cleverly manipulated Pakistani insecurities regarding its identity and political stability(whether real or perceived) towards the advancement of their goals ( spreading their type of Islam).Pakistan has gained nothing out of this ‘friendship’ and tracing of blood linkages with Arabs.On the other hand the people on this side of the border with whom they have so much in common are enemy no. 1.
    May things change one day enough for us to think of ourselves as two nations but one people. Make that three nations but one people.I forgot Bangladesh.

  4. yasserlatifhamdani

    Vandana,

    I second your sentiments. And this article above is our swansong to the narrow conception of nationalism imposed by the state on us Pakistanis.

    What you say can come true- three nations one people – if and only if we reject the hogwash that passes for history in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    My fondest hope is that South Asia ultimately lies along Jinnah’s vision of one super state above the independent nation states coming together on an equal footing with each other with joint defence pacts, mutual cooperation, largely open borders, a SATO type force consisting of defence cooperation between hitherto hostile forces…where rivalry would be in cricket and in development and not in the size of our latest missile.

    But for that to happen, you would have to hark back to the vision that Jinnah gave and your Pandits and Mahatmas rejected to become great leaders of your country.

  5. hayyer48

    I am mindful of PMA’s admonition that Indians tend to trawl Pakistani web sites needlessly, but as this subject impinges upon India in some sense I take the liberty of offering an opinion once again.
    My theory, for what it is worth goes as follows:
    With the decline of Muslim power in India, the British and the Maharathas jockeyed for position while in the North the Sikhs took over. Eventually when the British prevailed over all others including Muslim power in Bengal and Karnataka and effete and collaborative Avadh it was the Hindus who were quickly off the block in absorbing western influences; Muslims in those early years sullenly nursed their egos (some still do, spending a lot of time ruing the loss of power over India) and later even after the setting up of the Muslim Anglo Oriental College in Aligarh, in imagining possibilities of revival of Islamic domination; or failing that, a standoff existence with the Hindus on an equal basis as an Islamic society.
    Hindu awakening at first in Bengal as exemplified by Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwar Chandar Vidyasagar and Keshub Chander Sen was acquiring a secular progressive outlook as exemplified by the Brahmo Samaj movement. This remained confined to the upper classes. Soon a more grassroots Hindu revivalist movement gained ground exemplified by Swami Vivekanand, Aurobinda Ghosh and in the North by the Arya Samaj of Dayanand Saraswati.
    From the beginning Congress nationalism had a large tincture of this Hindu revivalism. I dont for a moment buy all that sentiment of Hindu Mulsim unity during the Indian mutiny. It gave way soon enough to pretty severe fundamentalist outcomes, of which Deoband is only one example. Hindu revivalists could find some sort of sublimination in the Congress though for the more fanatic of them a Hindu Mahasabha or RSS alone offered the way.
    The Muslim feudals were particularly affected by the prospects of Hindu power. Notwithstanding the leadership of a progressive Muslim movement led by Badruddin Tyabji in Bombay who insisted that the Muslims must join the Hindus in the Congress the feudals did succeed in setting up the Muslim League to represent purely Muslim interests ostensibly, but in fact to protect the interests of the landowners.
    Jinnah came into politics in the liberal Bombay tradition represented by Tyabji.
    Hindus and Muslims thought of themselves as such primarily. The Indian identity was secondary, and a consequence of British rule. Hindus in fact thought of themselves, and most still do, as Rajputs Banias or Brahmins primarily: even today in India. And ofcourse as Bengalis, Gujratis and Punjabis.
    In their interaction they formed rival Hindu and Muslim associations. The Hindu and Muslim gymkhanas played cricket matches against each other. In Lahore, the big sporting event was the annual hocket match between Islamia college and Khalsa college. The premier football team in Calcutta was Mohammaden Sporting against the Hindu Mohan Bagan and East Bengal. Muslim and Hindus would not come together for any common cause. They saw themselves as rivals, notwithstanding slogans of the Congress and Gandhi’s humbug piety about all religions.
    Pakistan in my opinion is just a continuation of the Hindu Muslim rivalry that manifested itself in the sporting field and in the divisions that the British tacitly and openly encouraged in preventing the two from getting together. However there is little evidence that there was any great desire to operate together in a fair basis. There could not in fact be a basis that would be fair to either side. Through pure numbers the Hindus were bound to dominate. Fairness required guarantees of a minimum social and political space for Muslims. The Congress would not assure this. So notwithstanding the economic interests that brought the Punjab feudals together in the Unionist Party, the Congress and the Muslim League never could come to an understanding that seemed fair to both sides in the rest of India.
    The Cabinet Mission Plan failed because though it would have saved India for the day, it was subject to a review after 10 years. The Plan may have merely put off the chaos that occured in 1947. Jinnah was probably like the good lawyer that he was, negotiating for the best bargain that he could get for his client. Perhaps he overplayed his hand. And ofcourse Kashmir happened and the killings that bedevilled Indo Pak relations for ever.
    The problem for Pakistan today I would suggest is that it is still in the pre-partition modes of thought. It feels compelled, in the old Hindu Muslim style rivalry to beat Hindu India at whatever it plays at. Hockey, cricket, nuclear bombs, nuclear waiver, rockets, economic growth, whatever. Just as when Congress would not acknowledge even genuine fears of the Muslim community, and just like the Muslim League pitching its demands to unreasonably high levels so today India and Pakistan play out the same roles in differnt contexts.
    The Muslims of the pre-partition lLeague have divided themselves into three groups and thus destroyed Muslim political power. It remains isolated and divided into three segments in Bangla desh, Pakistan and India-completely emasculated in India, marginalized as far as Hindu India is concerned in Bangla desh, but still seen by it as a nuisance continuing in the form ofPakistan.
    I suggest that Pakistan’s problems as highlighted by RR are entirely as a result of the profile that Pakistan continues to maintain vis a vis India, i.e. the old pre-partition stance. Pakistan seeks to be the equal of India, a country five times its size and more. It strains every fibre to be a bulwark against the rise of India. It adopts suicidal ideological postures and sustains fanatic religious groups in support of its aggressive posture. And just as India would like to be a world power Pakistan sees itself as the bulwark of the Islamic world.
    I dont believe there is a way out. I asked a Muslim friend from Kashmir, purely as a thought experiment which side he would root for if the Indian cricket team was composed of 11 Indian Muslims and they were playing Pakistan. His reply was ‘Pakistan’. I then asked him, ‘what if all the Muslims in the Indian team were from Kashmir’?
    To that he made no reply.
    In such situations when our prejudices and our instincts provide no ready answers there is a need to reformulate responses because we need to form new attachments.
    India has plenty of problems of its own but they dont seem quite as bad as those facing Pakistan. For Pakistan to get out of its dilemmas the solution is obvious; it must get out of these old ways of thinking. But, it cant do that can it unless it just forgets about India; and ofcourse Kashmir. The other way is to get friendly with India despite Kashmir, but that doesn’t seem easy either.

  6. yasserlatifhamdani

    Why don’t you just allow a resolution to the Kashmir dispute instead?

    Wouldn’t that be easier…after all most Kashmiris in Kashmir don’t want to be Indian.

  7. YLH(or is it the full name that I should be using in response to the comment ?) one can’t help but conclude that religion is at the root of all our issues and enmities.If we evisage “3 nations and one people”stage then religion as the foundation of our respective positions and stance has to be knocked off in all 3 nations.The pessimist in me says that is not going to happen any time soon.Pakistan and Bangladesh will fear loss of their Islamic identities forged over last 60 years(and stridently so in order to counter a Hindu India) and most Indians will fall back to fearing that this combo would eventually mean loss of Hindu space and identity and a possible domination by Islamic thought and power.Back to square one…..:(
    I think we will also need to put our old heroes/villains Gandhi,Nehru,Jinnah,Muslim League,RSS,Congress,Jamaat and other assorted pet peeves in cold storage and start from a fresh slate if anything has to change……..otherwise all these discussions will remain confined to blogosphere only.Too much baggage to carry fwd into the future.

  8. yasserlatifhamdani

    No. You are proceeding on the basis of a false conception.

    In my opinion the only part of history that needs to be put in cold storage is Gandhi and the mess he created.

    We are not going to disown Jinnah because he was right all along, as a Congressman, as an Indian nationalist and finally in the 1940s.

  9. Now I know I am talking to the real YLH.Ah ha Gandhi……. 🙂
    YLH, nothing can ever move forward if such exclusivity of views is maintained.Jinnah might be all that you say but that does not make Gandhi all that you peceive him to be…..not in the minds of millions atleast.And it is these millions on both sides who need to accomodate diverse viewpoints if any negotiations are take place…..and accomodated with sensitivity and respect for all viewpoints.

  10. yasserlatifhamdani

    I don’t give a damn really about what Gandhi is or isn’t in the mind of millions. The facts are that he brought religion into politics thus making communal consciousness non-negotiable against better counsel from … you got it… Jinnah. And having done that Gandhi then sabotaged every sane and reasonable attempt at Hindu Muslim Unity and then wrote the final chapter on it when he sabotaged the Cabinet Mission Plan and had Azad removed from the presidency of the Congress.

    Was Gandhi going to atone for his sins in Pakistan had he lived? Maybe. But his assassination made a small and petty politician into an infallible Mahatma. These are the facts.

    So forgive me but I can’t give a damn really about whose sensibility I am outraging, and whether those fooled by the Gandhi myth number in millions, hundreds of millions or billions. I am going to keep repeating the facts about him.

  11. Thanks for the comments. Let us not restart the Gandhi debate.
    This was heartfelt as I was a bit enraged by the attacks on Ayesha Jalal by some writers.
    RR

  12. hayyer48

    My comment was on RR’s piece, not a justification of the Indian position on anything at all.
    Pakistan’s problems I suggested are because of its intense competition with India; a continuation of the older Hindu Muslim rivalry of pre-partition ays. India position is based on a rejection of the two nation theory. Kashmiri Muslims do not want to be part of India now, but the majority of them did not care one or the other in 1947.
    Letting go of Kashmir is not ‘easier’ for India as you suggest. In any case your suggestion begs the questions that RR raised; the problems are in Pakistan, not India. Pakistan has to solve them without reference to what India can do or is willing or able to do.

  13. yasserlatifhamdani

    RR’s comments about Pakistani problems are valid and they should be dealt with.In real terms that translates to a more secular polity and a more inclusive society. Infact I have on good authority that the young historian Raza Rumi refers to is none other than me. It is a project- Pakistan’s course correction- which both Raza and I hold dear.

    However the problem for the continuing hostility between Pakistan and India lies in India: inability to accept that Kashmiris don’t want to live with you.

    We are engineered to destroy you because Pakistan’s most famous Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto swore that in the UN.

    If you want the military to lose influence in Pakistan and take the wind out of ISI’s activities against India solve the Kashmir issue.

    Without resolving Kashmir you can’t say there is no problem in India.

  14. Oh,no there we go again,YLH….. 🙂

  15. Milind Kher

    YLH,

    Why should Kashmir be a problem between India and Pakistan?

    Kashmir is not a chattel of either nation. Kashmiris have the ability to determine for themselves who they want to align themselves with, if they want to at all.

    Jinnah wanted a secular state, the hardliners ruined it. Now the Kashmiris want a secular state, let not Uzbek and Pashtun mercenaries queer the pitch.

  16. alok

    Kashmir issue is resolved: after india has held free and fair elections for people to elect their own democratic government. sorry to inform you YLH at your own dismay that pakistan does not come in the picture

  17. yasserlatifhamdani

    Keep dreaming boy. Just like Congress and the League participating in 1937 and 1946 elections didn’t mean a vote for British Raj, Kashmiris have made it quite clear that they don’t consider a vote in the elections in Kashmir a vote for Indian union.

    Your first prime minister promised a plebiscite and there are UN resolutions to that effect. I am not concerned about who the Kashmiris finally decide to go with but the fulfillment of that pledge.

    Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris and if you guys think you can hoodwink the world and take this “we are so much better in India approach” you will make the same mistakes you guys did in 1946 with the cabinet mission plan.

    I see Indians are very nervous about Kashmir as it back with a bang on the international agenda. It is time you people rose up your parochial Hindutvist mindsets and solved Kashmir for the good of all of South Asia.

    Or else continue to remain embroiled in this cycle of violence that threatens India and Pakistan and the average people like those who died in Mumbai and in Islamabad.

  18. yasserlatifhamdani

    Milind,

    What Jinnah wanted etc is an academic debate and I agree with you that he wanted a secular state. This is what Raza is also saying… This is what we’ve been harping about for a while.

    However whether we choose to follow Jinnah’s prescription is another story and is divorced from the issue of Kashmir which has to be resolved according to the UN resolutions … and according to the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

    It doesn’t matter if Pakistan is a secular state or an Islamic theocracy because what matters is that Kashmiris be allowed to make a final choice.

    If Pakistan is so bad, that should go in your favor. So what are you scared of ? Except ofcourse the obvious!

    Just like Pakistan survived the loss of East Pakistan, India too will continue without Kashmir. Have faith in yourself.

    You don’t have to keep a population hostage to prove your secularism…what you need to do is do away with the nonsense that passes in its name in the so called secular India of yours.

  19. alok

    I see Indians are very nervous about Kashmir as it back with a bang on the international agenda. It is time you people rose up your parochial Hindutvist mindsets and solved Kashmir for the good of all of South Asia.

    this is the problem when you form a country based on a religion it pervades the complete consciousness of its people. then liberal,secular drama is all hogwash….

    come what you may say YLH, India is a truly secular country with secular ethos and we do not have parochial hindutva mindsets and we are very proud of it…..i think we do not want to call ourselves hindu republic of india just like you call yourselves..

    Its not we who are nervous 🙂 its you because you know as India gets more power on economic and diplomatic/world front, its curtains for the k-game.

    perhaps you forgot the holbrooke affair: or shall i remind you again.

    wait for some more years till India along with Japan,Brazil and Germany get to the security council….you will see how things shape up then….sorry to say your K-game is over.

  20. alok

    and if you are giving a veiled threat of legitimising terrorism if we do not lend an ear to the K-game…well go ahead, let’s see how well you will fare. All the best

  21. yasserlatifhamdani

    No I merely agree with President Obama when he says that Kashmir is central to the issue of terror.

    I am a victim of terror – having seen and felt Marriot at close range. Which is why I think you are being very callous in continuing to play this game for some national honor.

    And you are right India’s liberal secular stance being hogwash. India is the most god obsessed country in the world whose entire civilization is rooted in religious identity. It is a Hindu Rashtra…

    A simple sociological comparison of the PTV of the “Islamic” Republic of Pakistan and the various TV channels in India will show just how non-secular your popular culture is. Every single one of your god damn soaps has family puja scenes.

    Glad you’ve finally admitted the obvious.

    But you seem to be under some misconceptions about India’s economic blah blah. The reality of India my friend is the first half of the movie “slum dog millionaire” – India is a country where people live in conditions worst than pigs …especially if they don’t belong to the majority religion.

    So spare me the nonsense about Indian secularism blah blah and how a sikh is your prime minister and how Sonia Gandhi is italian roman catholic. US has never had a non-christian as a president but that is a far more secular country than India. Same is true of most European states and Western democracies. so you can continue your little topi drama all you want but you will remain in the global perception a slum where people are forced to live like dogs especially if their names are not Hindu. Kapeesh?

  22. yasserlatifhamdani

    Erratum: Worse than

  23. yasserlatifhamdani

    Reality as they say is the female of the canine species.

  24. azhar aslam

    YLH

    Why do you even bother with these Bharatis. They all claim to be secularists, implying a certain open mindedness, but they are unable and unwilling to get rid of their narrow parochial views which come through soon they start talking. The main thrust of the article is absolutely fine, but these guys have to drag themselves in it and inevitably Kashmir comes along, burning, wrapped in their tails.

    I have commented on the legal position of Kashmir and some possible solutions elsewhere, so I won’t waste time and space again.

    Hayyer

    ‘Kashmiri Muslims do not want to be part of India now, but the majority of them did not care one or the other in 1947.’’

    You are so wrong mate; in fact you are clueless. Go and do some reading.

    ‘Pakistan seeks to be the equal of India, a country five times its size and more. It strains every fibre to be a bulwark against the rise of India.’

    And why not Sir? Any problem there? Or is it simply that you cannot stand the thought of Pakistan even attempting to be equal to Bharat Maata.

    And I imagine, following your logic, UK and Germany are much larger than India in size? Or Japan must be at least twice the size of China.

    Vandana

    ‘Without a past, or with a manufactured past, the future can only be a lie or fractured at best’.

    ‘Too much baggage to carry fwd into the future’.

    At the least there is no danger of you being blamed of consistency. Well done.

    Milind

    ‘Kashmiris have the ability to determine for themselves who they want to align themselves with, if they want to at all.’

    So why don’t you guys let us do that? Why not hold a free plebiscite?

    ‘Now the Kashmiris want a secular state, let not Uzbek and Pashtun mercenaries queer the pitch.’

    Errr… I think if you care to look closely the mercenaries from Bharat outnumber Uzbeks and Pashtuns by a factor of at least 1 to 100.

    A little something for you all. A young Kashmiri’s voice.
    http://saadat.in/blog/?page_id=9

    ‘India calls us an INTEGRAL PART of it, but still
    they keep on arresting Kashmiris outside our state for no fault of
    theirs. All that police does is arresting a Kashmiri, brand him as an LET
    terrorist and have a promotion, medal and a prize money plus media
    fame. Is this want you want Kashmir for? If you can’t give us a good
    and a happy life, then let us do that. You neither help us, nor allow
    us to help ourselves.’

  25. azhar aslam

    RR

    Why do my comments await moderation most of the time ?

  26. Vijay Goel

    Vandanaji, I wd like to share some thoughts with u on a project which we some friends are planning.Wd u b kind enough to give yr e mail id to me.Mine is vijaygoeleth.net Tx

  27. Vijay Goel

    Vandanaji, I wd like to share some thoughts with u on a project which we some friends are planning.Wd u b kind enough to give yr e mail id to me.Mine is vijaygoel@eth.net Tx

  28. yasserlatifhamdani

    Azhar,

    My guess is that your posts got moderated because they had a url in them.

    Any posts I post with a url get moderated.

  29. Raza,
    That made for some very informative reading, and I’m glad you (re)clarified your purpose behind writing this piece because it appears the ‘comments’ section in Pak Tea House has become a war zone where old wounds are scraped open for all to watch gore and vitriol ooze out of horrors of the past. This voyeurism is unique in that it defies rationality; why would any thinking mind want to audience a mindless exchange of barbed wire comments where each comment maker comes in
    a. believing he will always be right
    b. adamant about knowing everything
    c. convinced his is the only point of view
    d. only wanting to opine without wanting to listen
    Why can’t RR’s post lead to an exchange of ideas on the subject and not having to fight over them…
    I’m sorry if the above sounds like I am pontificating, but it’s a shame that a post as interesting as this one should lead to such repetitive and hurtful slander; Raza’s writing deserves better!

  30. I Me My, totally agree with you on this.When I posted the first comment on this post of RR I never thought that a vitriolic exchange would start on this post…..atleast not between Indians and Pakistani readers………really unfortunate because as you said RR’s was a truly heartfelt piece and deserved a decent debate.

  31. yasserlatifhamdani

    I am sorry but I just don’t get the point of the two posts above. Why are people so scared of the ugliness that is in our hearts? Why are we such hypocrites?

    In any event, Raza Rumi will be best advised to ignore the comments by I me my and Vandana (both of whom I otherwise have a great deal of respect for ) because none of the comments, passionate as they are, are vitriolic. Opinions are always expressed as absolute. And whenever the thin line is crossed where opinions become insults, PTH has a history of intervention.

    Let me remind Raza Rumi of what happened at that “Pakistaniat” site where Adil Najam and his crew were similarly misled by people who complained about the “ugliness” of the debate and cracked down on freedom of speech and debate.

    That website shed upto 55% of its traffic in the last 6 months alone- check alexa if you don’t believe me.

    So – set the ground rules about abuse/insults but beyond that don’t moderate opinions and freedom of speech. These are my two cents.

  32. Majumdar

    RR sb,

    Heartfelt piece.Very well written.

    Vandana,

    Indians will fall back to fearing that this combo would eventually mean loss of Hindu space and identity and a possible domination by Islamic thought and power.

    Very rightly so. And that is why Hindoos of India must reject any thought of United India -not that Pak/BD Muslims want United India either.

    YLH,

    Just like Pakistan survived the loss of East Pakistan, India too will continue without Kashmir.

    And just as Pakistan did not give up BD without losing a war and external intervention, India wont give up Kashmir without war or external intervention either.

    you would have to hark back to the vision that Jinnah gave and your Pandits and Mahatmas rejected

    There is no point in asking Indians to accept Jinnah’s vision when Pakis themselves have rejected it.

    Regards

  33. alok

    this is the problem when you form a country based on a religion it pervades the complete consciousness of its people. then liberal,secular drama is all hogwash….

    this was for islamic republic of pakistan not india…requires brains to comprehend though

  34. alok

    To azhar aslam

    And why not Sir? Any problem there? Or is it simply that you cannot stand the thought of Pakistan even attempting to be equal to Bharat Maata.

    how much foreign reserves do you have. how often you beg? go do your homework

  35. alok

    And you are right India’s liberal secular stance being hogwash. India is the most god obsessed country in the world whose entire civilization is rooted in religious identity. It is a Hindu Rashtra…

    jalne ki boo aa rahi hai kahin se…..

  36. alok

    But you seem to be under some misconceptions about India’s economic blah blah. The reality of India my friend is the first half of the movie “slum dog millionaire” – India is a country where people live in conditions worst than pigs …especially if they don’t belong to the majority religion.

    and in pakistan all of them live in such conditions. no! perhaps your GDP per capita is 5 times larger?
    what was the last infaltion figure you had??

  37. yasserlatifhamdani

    alok mian…

    That as it may be, but it is more applicable to India than Pakistan since in Pakistan atleast no one outside of a small group of people including myself and Raza Rumi have laid claims to liberal secularism… and as things stand the so called secular India is definitely more God-obsessed than Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

    Now your other comment to Azhar mian… it is typical of the shining India brigade. Go fix your slums first. Despite whatever you or anyone else might say, we have rather poor opinion of your country. Call it bias call it whatever… but reality is the female of the canine species.

  38. alok

    So spare me the nonsense about Indian secularism blah blah and how a sikh is your prime minister and how Sonia Gandhi is italian roman catholic. US has never had a non-christian as a president but that is a far more secular country than India. Same is true of most European states and Western democracies. so you can continue your little topi drama all you want but you will remain in the global perception a slum where people are forced to live like dogs especially if their names are not Hindu. Kapeesh?

    YLH aag bujha le bachhe…jalne ki boo aa rahi hai

  39. yasserlatifhamdani

    “in pakistan all of them live in such conditions”

    This is your wish and aspiration. We may have our slums but they don’t compare to the sheer numbers that you have.

    And as for your five times the GDP blah blah. How ironic because you have 7 times the population as well.

    Maybe you understand the difference between GDP per capita and GDP… in GDP/capita India (mostly fudged figures) only recently crossed Pakistan… and is not 5 times Pakistan … that would make you a high income country … and India is not even a middle income country.

  40. alok

    1) India does not have misconception that its a developed country, hence there will be slums. you forget shanty towns in china and slums in brazil.
    and did you do a religious anlalysis of slum population in India. dont lie and dont exaggerate to prove your point.

    2) India is a successful democracy with a vibrant secular culture…your non accepting is not my burden…while you people are involved in the quagmire of who is muslim and who is not…go see a mirror

  41. alok

    YLH you seriously dont get jokes….something seriously wrong with your comprehension

  42. alok

    yes and since you know how high the GDP is you can use your peassized brain to calculate what a 9% growth will achieve.

  43. alok

    and the final world: pakistan is a failed state

    i am not the only one who said this

  44. yasserlatifhamdani

    yawn…. most Indians who come to Pakistan almost die of an onset of inferiority complex… (and this is what we’ve achieved despite the military dictatorships, islamic theocracy- imagine what we would be if we actually lived up to the dream):

    here is your favorite Aakar Patel:

    Visitors to Pakistan will be shocked at how they have kept their cities and their airports. They are truly world class. India can never be this efficient or clean. Lahore is paradise. It has huge gardens splashed through the middle of its roads. An enormous canal glides through the middle of a thoroughfare. Indians will also be amazed with how much at ease the Lahauri is with his culture and how little this culture has to do with religion.

    http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003380&channel=gymkhana&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

    Read and weep oh worshipper of “shining” India.

  45. yasserlatifhamdani

    According to one estimate Indian American lobby spent something to the tune of 1 billion dollars between 1999 and 2009 to have the words “Failed state” associated with Pakistan.

    This is the shamelessnes of the Indian mindset. Like Ayesha Jalal said… Pakistan’s inherent strength is visible and for all to see. In our failure, we tower above your success.

  46. alok

    and as things stand the so called secular India is definitely more God-obsessed than Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

    being god obsessed does not make you non secular, destroying school for girls and beheading, all in the name of god does….

  47. alok

    Yawn Yawn:

    this from your very own shakir hussain

    Next up is our crumbling infrastructure about which the less said is better. Despite having mysteriously acquired nuclear weapons, Pakistani companies (both state and private) are unable to build a road which can withstand a rain or two. And then there is the power “situation”. There’s an acute shortage of power in a country which has no business having a power shortage given our geography in terms of natural water reservoirs. While far poorer countries than ours have resolved to reduce their dependence on oil as a primary source of energy for power, our bureaucrats and politicians remain clueless. For the past 9 years I have been hearing about CNG buses for Karachi as Delhi has done to reduce carbon emissions, yet nobody quite knows where these buses went to. We’ve been hearing about mass transport facilities for the citizens of our urban centers which have failed to materialize for all the wrong reasons – money. Yet there’s enough money to buy luxury vehicles for everyone and their grandmothers.

    dream baby dream….

  48. Majumdar

    Yasser mian,

    and as things stand the so called secular India is definitely more God-obsessed than Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

    There is nothign wrong in citizens being God obsessed (USA arguably the most successful country in the world is one) what is wrong is in state having a religious obsession.

    Alok mian,

    I am afraid what YLH says is the bitter truth, there is little which separates India from Pak, in some aspects- hunger and infra notably, if at all anything Pak is a bit ahead of us.

    Regards

  49. alok

    majumdar stop preaching:

    I have enough evidence of how our infra is way ahead of pakistan. you perhaps were born a little earlier and are not abreast with the things in motion

    did u ride in delhi metro. after a few years you can do so in mumbai, ahmedabad, bangalore, hyderabad apart from chennai…

    did u look at the new hyd,bangalore airports and revamped mumbai…perhaps not

    our benchmark is china and west….not the islamic republic of….

    take a look at the Grand trunk highway this isde of border and that side…that side its hardly a highway…maybe dirt highway

  50. yasserlatifhamdani

    alok,

    This is not what every single Indian who visits Pakistan tells me.

    My conclusion is that you are delusional.

  51. Majumdar

    Alok mian,

    you perhaps were born a little earlier and are not abreast with the things in motion

    I actually stay in India and know exactly how good things are. Just get off the highways and you will know.

    Regards

  52. yasserlatifhamdani

    The only worthwhile thing worth copying is the CNG Transport system in Delhi. Even without that Karachi is a lot less polluted than Delhi…. and there is no comparison between Islamabad and any of the Indian cities.

  53. Majumdar

    Yasser mian,

    The only worthwhile thing worth copying is the CNG Transport system in Delhi.

    And the Metro.

    and there is no comparison between Islamabad and any of the Indian cities.

    Possibly Chandigarh. Needless to say, both are Punjab.

    Regards

  54. alok

    pakistan cricket mess and IPL and indian success…or new topic?

  55. Majumdar

    Alok mian,

    Sure there are a few things India is ahead in for eg HDI- 5-6 notches above Pak, in others Pak is ahead for eg hunger- Pak being 5-6 nocthes above India.

    But then Pakistan hasnt coined the term Shining Pak. We have.

    Regards

  56. yasserlatifhamdani

    Cricket… the last refuge of a scoundrel eh?

    In my opinion there is nothing more disgusting than a liquor baron from a country like India with desperate poverty paying more than a million dollars to his erstwhile colonial master to play cricket for his team.

    Pakistani cricket has declined because of our war on terror. Otherwise the record – even after your decade of success- speaks for itself… compare our one day international and test record any day.

  57. alok

    Debate for the future 1: Big Brother lend a dime

    Posted by Kamran Abbasi at in New age

    While Pakistan cricket needs India, India, in turn, has to nurture Pakistan cricket © AFP

    Pak Spin has been quiet. I make no apology for the present melancholy that I feel for Pakistan cricket. Yes, there are bigger issues gripping Pakistan but our brief here is to discuss and debate cricket. There has never been a more threatening time for the game in Pakistan, and the Marriott bombing has changed the whole complexion of the crisis.

    Over the next few weeks, I propose to cover the main issues that Pakistan cricket must grapple with, allowing Pakistan cricket lovers to suggest their solutions to the critical problems that Pakistan’s politicians, administrators, and cricketers are facing. We may not win the hearts and minds of suicide bombers or international cricketers. We may not change the future of Pakistan cricket. But we will be heard, as Cricinfo offers the most visible forum in the world of cricket.

    The first issue will perturb some Pakistan fans but it is inescapable: The future of Pakistan cricket lies in the hands of India.

    A couple of weeks ago, shortly after the Marriott bombing, the PCB announced that India would be touring Pakistan. There was no need for this announcement and it was a needless public relations exercise. But it built upon the support that India has extended to Pakistan in recent times.

    Clearly, power politics are at play. India may be the dominant financial force in international cricket but it still requires the support of its friends in ICC meetings.

    Nonetheless, India has helped Pakistan through various crises since the Darrell Hair incident, with the most recent being its resistance to the Champions Trophy being moved from Pakistan. This was shortly after India helped ensure that the Asia Cup was held in Pakistan.

    The rest of the cricketing world dances to India’s tune. Everything involving India has become bigger, better, and more important than anything that preceded it. All Pakistan can do is hang on to its neighbour’s kurta, as India’s tours to Pakistan will be by far the biggest spectacle that Pakistan cricket can expect to host for some time to come.

    India, then, is Pakistan’s lifeline to regaining a full international itinerary. But it is important for India to nurture Pakistan too. The thrill of India, Australia, England, Sri Lanka, and South Africa playing each other will eventually be diminished by familiarity. The irony of cricket’s attempt at globalisation is that the cricket world has shrunk. West Indies, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, and Kenya have taken huge strides backwards. It is an indictment of an international sport if the major nations can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

    Hence, the pull of India’s rivalry with Pakistan may have weakened but it will become compelling again, provided that Pakistan cricket can find a method of regrouping and reviving its strength in these days of darkness.

    More of that in the coming weeks, but for now Pakistan cricket is lucky to have India on its side.

  58. alok

    you would never understand economics…perhaps you have religious reasons to hate LIQUOR baron…did you make any noise when your pakistani players played here……

    jali…jali…jali

  59. alok

    alok,

    This is not what every single Indian who visits Pakistan tells me.

    My conclusion is that you are delusional.

    and my conclusion is that you are a liar.

  60. Majumdar

    I think we need to have an “Unplugged” like section on PTH where general too too main main and mudslinging can be done. The main page shud be left for serious discussions on the topic concerned.

    Regards

  61. alok

    Mazumdar to remind you the topic which Raza started was to do with idea of pakistan and ayesha jalal and not
    1) Gandhi
    2) Kashmir
    3) Infrastructure of Pakistan
    4) Pakistan shining etc…

    my suggestion give YLH another page where he can rant

  62. alok

    True, we inherited the worst of geographical locations and a ‘moth-eaten’ country to quote Jinnah. But by writing false histories and nurturing delusions of grandeur we have become a delusional society. We want Islam, modernity, the Taliban and Bollywood, all at the same time. We loathe America but the queues for American visas are longer than ever. We continue to search for our identity: we are by turns Central Asian, Persian and Arab and turn our backs on our closest approximation which is Indian. The one thing we know is that we are not Indian. We claim the Mughals as our own, but ignore the fact that most of them were secular and born of Hindu mothers. We love invaders and name missiles after them, but refuse to acknowledge that most Pakistanis were converts from lower caste Hindus.

  63. alok

    True, we inherited the worst of geographical locations and a ‘moth-eaten’ country to quote Jinnah. But by writing false histories and nurturing delusions of grandeur we have become a delusional society.

    YLH who is getting delusional?

  64. alok

    ha ha ha………raza u are refraining me to quote you…how hilarious!!!!

  65. alok

    ha ha ha……….raza you are refraining me to quote your own article…….how hillarious…..

  66. alok

    True, we inherited the worst of geographical locations and a ‘moth-eaten’ country to quote Jinnah. But by writing false histories and nurturing delusions of grandeur we have become a delusional society

  67. yasserlatifhamdani

    Raza is referring to your crazy counterparts in Pakistan. If you read the article closely you’ll realize that the young historian he talks about is me.

    Are you going to continue to spam this board?

  68. alok

    are you a communist or an idiot?

    when the pie increases all benefit. ever heard of trickle down economics?

    your country will go heels over head to do something like this if it came their way. all those talk about PPL…..bah….what losers!

    grapes are sour!!

  69. alok

    you are the worst spammer YLH….and you have been spanked well 🙂

  70. yasserlatifhamdani

    Yeah… umm… Ok.

  71. PMA

    Raza: Historians would say that Pakistan was as much a creation of Indian Congress and her Hindu leaders like Nehru as much it was a creation of Muslim League and Jinnah. Sixty million dollar question is: Why Jinnah accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan and Nehru rejected it?

    There was a clause in the Plan that would allow in sometime future the two federated units in the East and West to break away intact from the center in Delhi. Breaking away of the Western federation would have allowed entire Punjab and Kashmir to go with ‘Pakistan’. Nehru knew it that Jinnah would exercise that option sometime in the future and that is why he would rather agree to the division of Punjab and let Pakistan ‘go’ than to loose East Punjab to Pakistan. To him Pakistan was lesser of the two options. He called Jinnah’s bluff and Jinnah got left with ‘moth eaten religious’ state; an idea against Jinnah’s plan of multi ethnic liberal and secular state where Muslims will be in domination of the political and economical life of the state. Hindus ‘gave’ us this state minus East Punjab and our minorities and now they abuse us for being a ‘religious’ state. How dare you dammit. Hindus of India are equally responsible for the India-Pakistan problems.

    But Raza we Pakistanis need to move on. I wish you and others stop debating the politics of the British Indian Empire and concentrate on our multiple problems at hand. Let us see what we have and build upon it. We are NOT the foster parents of Indian Muslims. Let them go and build our own nation based on our geography and culture. Yes we are Arab, Persian, Central Asian and South Asian. Yes we are ALL of the above at the same time. And yes we are not Indians. We are Pakistanis.

  72. PMA

    “I am mindful of PMA’s admonition that Indians tend to trawl Pakistani web sites needlessly, but as this subject impinges upon India in some sense I take the liberty of offering an opinion once again.”

    ‘hayyer48’: Even though I consider myself a friend of Raza I do not ‘own’ this site. I visit this site because of my admiration of Rumi Sahab and also my respect for the scholarship of Yassar. My first purpose to visit this site is to learn and read about intellectual developments within Pakistan. Least of my desires is to read the aimless and sometime foolish verbal assaults between Pakistanis and those Indians who, for some reason, visit this site. There must be some completion there as I never find myself visiting any of India-centric sites. But I am mad at India for not resolving Kashmir problem to the satisfaction of Kashmiris. That is the extent of my involvement with India. I am of firm believe that with Kashmir issue still simmering after sixty years there will be no peace in South Asia, Pakistan or no Pakistan. As a Pakistani my concerns are Pakistan and not India. I could care less what goes on in India. I hear that India’s GDP has gone more than two dollars a day. Well congratulations to ALL Indians. What concerns me most is the poverty, illiteracy and hunger of MY people. For me Pakistan and my interests end at Wagah. Regards.

  73. Majumdar

    PMA sb,

    Jinnah’s plan of multi ethnic liberal and secular state where Muslims will be in domination of the political and economical life of the state.

    Yeah. And INC’s idea of a secular state where Hindoos would be in domination was a fascist idea but AIML’s idea of Muslim dominated state was a liberal idea.

    Hindus ‘gave’ us this state minus East Punjab and our minorities

    You may not be aware of this but the other half of your country, East Pak had a Hindoo population of 25% as per 1951 Census. Today that number is down to 10%. If the Hindoos had not taken away your minorities you wud have kicked them out anyways.

    and now they abuse us for being a ‘religious’ state.

    Let me apologise on their behalf. Pakistan can be a secular or a religious state, that shud be none of our concern. Besides, being a religious state is nothing to be ashamed of.

    Regards

    PS: In an earlier post, you had said that the Hindoos had never accepted Pakistan, did not want to create it and wanted to undo it. Now you seem to agree with historians that the Hindoos kicked out Pakistan from the Indian Union. Can you for once tell us what exactly we Hindoos are guilty of.

  74. YLH,Alok,Mazumdar,Azhar Aslam,PMA…..this Pak Tea House needs some other vocal members and a wider canvas than just what has been hammered out on every post…..right now it does not matter what post is posted by which writer.The comment section turns out to be identical in each case.
    Come on guys,give it a small break(all sides)…let some fresher ideas have a chance.

  75. hayyer48

    I was not on the net for over a day and am saddened at the vituperation that has erupted. Please, gentlemen, let us discuss matters in the spirit of RR’s piece not as a casus belli.
    YLH: I heartily wish you and Pakistan all the best in the course correction that you wish. A problem free Pakistan is good for India.
    My piece said precisely this; i.e. the solution to Pakistan’s problems must be found within Pakistan and without reference to what India does.
    If India’s actions about Kashmir or lack there-of cause create for Pakistan then it will be a long time before your project can succeed.
    India certainly has many problems, Kashmir among them. But RR’s piece was not about India’s problems, and I was not commenting to India’s problems, which, God knows, are probably insoluble; but we manage to live with that knowledge.
    To come to Alok’s comment on Kashmir: The canard that free and fair elections to select a state government are a solution to the Kashmir problem is one of the vicious myths that Government India has long propogated. Even when it put Sheikh Abdullah behind bars on trumped up charges of treason and conduceted completely rigged elections in 1957, 62, 67 and 1972, it harped on this so called exercise of their wishes by voting in corrupt and discredited governments led by Congress minions who had deserted Sheikh Abdullah, as an excuse not to do anything about Kashmir.
    Further evidence of the perfidy of the Indian establishment vis a vis Kashmir came in 1995 and 1996. Prime Ministers Narasimha Rao and Devegowda proposed the following ‘Anything short of Azadi’ and ‘sky is the limit’ as defining the extent to which Delhi would go to find a solution. We still wait. The National Conference brought out an extensive Autonomy Report in 1999 which Georgie Porgie Fernandes shot down, the same Georgie Porgie who was on his knees in Srinagar in the winter of 1990 begging Kashmiri interlocutors to to do ‘something’, ‘anything’ that would put an end to the then incipient crisis.
    Kashmiris have boycotted elections and when that didn’t help they have voted, but let there be no doubt, they would rather vote in a plebiscite.
    India’s sorry record on Kashmir is too long and twisted to go into at much length here and so I shall desist from further elaboration.
    Which is not to say that Pakistan has any sort of moral case on Kashmir. The post colonial drama that the subcontinent faces has as much to do with the social, racial, linguistic and religious dynamics of the sub continent as with British villainy or the personal ambitions and prejudices of political leaders of the time.
    To insist that Pakistan cannot solve its problems unless India solves the Kashmir problem in a way which satisfies Pakistan is a way of ensuring that Pakistan’s problems are not solved at all. That is all I meant by saying that a way of resolving the dilemma written about by RR is to forget about India including Kashmir; the other, to befriend India despite Kashmir.
    Azhar Alam: I have done some reading on Kashmir. In fact I have half written a book and them abandoned it. I have lived in Kashmir for more than half my life.
    I dont understand why you bring in a reference to Bharat Mata. I consider myself an Indian not a Bharati notwithstanding the fact that India is also Bharat under our constitution. As for the Mata part, why do you assume that all Indians are prey to that religious cant.
    Certainly Pakistan has a right to look for great power status. I did not question with that right. I merely pointed out that it was legitimate for India to do so just as Pakistan seeks to lead the Islamic world. As for size I was just pointing out that not only is India five times the size in area, and in population probably more, but that its economy is ten times larger. In a spending competition for goodies for our defence forces Pakistan is bound to be outspent. You can nuke us but that only leads to mutual destruction.
    PMA: I agree with you about those foolish Indians who irritate and annoy Pakistanis with their prissy and prejudiced commentaries. There is some latent communalism in all of us; many Indians cannot see their own prejudices, being taken in by the constant propoganda in the Indian media about India’s secular credentials. They exist no doubt, and there is an attempt at fairplay in India, though too often, sub-conscioulsy or otherwise, the Bharat Mata syndrome takes over in a lot of Indians.
    On the subject of trawling I must say that in an interconnected world there can be many matters of interest across the globe. If there had been a free flow of print media across our borders surely a lot of letters ot the editors would have flown across to each other.
    The internet provides an opportunity to exchange views and opinions. We cannot say that we have no matters of common interest. Rather, there is probably more to discuss in terms of art and culture, history and literature and even religion between Indians and Pakistanis than there is between say Indians and Iranians or between Pakistanis and Uzbeks or Arabs or even Iranians.
    We can certainly cut ourselves of from each other, turn our backs to each other, and that is a suggestion that I did make; it is better than fighting each other.
    The proximity to Arabia, Central Asia and Iran decreases as you penetrate into India, but even in Kerala at India southern tip the Moplahs have an Arab connection. Bengal, Hyderabad, Tamil Nad and Karnataka, all have had Turkic or Persian. I dare say you can take India out of Pakistan, or try to but you cant take Pakistan out of India.
    Central Asia is where Aryavrat originated notwithstanding the revisionist Hindu historians. You may want to stop at Wagah, and it may be prudent to, considering the state of our relationship, but the interest of Indians in Pakistan may not wither despite that.
    As for your own view that your interest in India stops at Wagah. Can this be really true, if as your latest comment shows you blame Nehru and his colleagues for rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan. You obviously wish that it had been accepted. In which case you cannot be free of a desire for a United India.
    Similarly when you blame Nehru for calling Jinnah’s bluff do you believe that Jinnah was bluffing? In which case was Jinnah wrong?
    Had East Punjab and West Bengal been part of Pakistan including Delhi( it was part of Punjab then) you would have had a huge non Muslim population of Hindus and Sikhs. You could not have had an Islamic Republic of Pakistan then. Could you have had a Sikh Regiment in your Army along with a Dogra Regiment in your Army. The implications of such a Pakistan are mind boggling. But surely you are in favour of such an imagined Pakistan. Then why close your mind at Wagah? now?

  76. hayyer48

    On re-reading I find two errors.
    Line 8. After there-of please read’ cause the creation of these problems for Pakistan’ instead of ‘ cause create for Pakistan’.
    Line 20 from bottom. Please add ‘connection’ after ‘Persian’.
    RR. May I suggest that you advise your correspondents to, A) number their paragraphs and B) to ascribe a number to each separate comment. This would be done by your site administrator.
    It would make it easier to connect comments to the various correspondents.

  77. Majumdar

    Hayyer mian,

    Had East Punjab and West Bengal been part of Pakistan including Delhi( it was part of Punjab then) you would have had a huge non Muslim population of Hindus and Sikhs.

    No, sir. The Hindoos/Sikhs wud have been converted, killed or expelled by now. You may want to check up the population stats of BD in 1951 and 2001 for corroboration.

    Partition was one of the best things that could have happened, minus the Kashmir issue and violence both of which cud have been avoided had Lord Mountbottom not been in a tearing hurry to get back to London. The ground rules of Partition shud have been made clear before it happened.

    Had that happened, we wud still not have been the best of friends but good peaceable neighbours who wud have addressed shared issues such as those pertaining to security, trade and river waters in an amicable way.

    Regards

  78. alok

    Kashmiris have boycotted elections and when that didn’t help they have voted, but let there be no doubt, they would rather vote in a plebiscite.

    hayyer to be able to do something new and good you have to leave past behind and stop being cynical

    I am sorry to say many past elections may have been rigged but this time they have not only been free and fair but the most important thing is that people have rejected the call of the separatists and have voted in large numbers.

    true they have voted for roti kapda and makaan but isnt that more important than the hollow claims of azaadi.

    why dont pakistanis advise there fellow chinese citizens to fight for azaadi, or better give that advice to themselves.

  79. alok

    Majumdar
    February 9, 2009 at 7:27 am
    Alok mian,

    you perhaps were born a little earlier and are not abreast with the things in motion

    I actually stay in India and know exactly how good things are. Just get off the highways and you will know.

    Regards

    Majumdar you have a habit of making arbitrary staements like gospel truth. substantiate if you have facts otherwise keep quiet.

  80. yasserlatifhamdani

    Alok mian…

    Congress and the Muslim League contested elections in 1937 and 1946 … after they had already adopted independence as their demand …. does that mean that they were accepting British rule?

    Vote in Kashmir elections is not a vote for the Indian Union. Hayyer is right. Try to accept facts… instead of spamming away like a mad man.

  81. alok

    YLH do you have ‘cataract’ in your eyes which prevents you from reading whatevr is written?

    I repeat:

    true they have voted for roti kapda and makaan but isnt that more important than the hollow claims of azaadi.

    why dont pakistanis advise there fellow chinese citizens to fight for azaadi, or better give that advice to themselves.

    and what about facts: that Pakistan was never and can never be a funtional democracy yet preach the same for kashmir.

    what makes you think your bullshit is not spam.

    go consult a mirror.

  82. Amir

    Ha…you think pakistan was a scrap of meat thrown to the dogs ?…..hindu congress did not give us pakistan….muslim league did

    i feel sorry for you jahils who need to bow to hindus for yr own country…rise and be proud

  83. alok

    Raza why the hell are you blocking myposts…what sort of a game is this…..pathetic!!

  84. alok

    I honstely feel Raza is very partial to what YLH says and blocks anyone who has an argument against him especially from India….

    So much for liberal democratic ideals

  85. alok

    Andher nagri Chaupat Raja

  86. alok

    Very well! so ultimately this is a pakistani blog where you can only write self congratulatory messages….very well!

    count 1 traffic less from India….all the best

  87. yasserlatifhamdani

    Stop spamming away like a mad man… alok. Tell me which one of your posts has Raza blocked and I’ll personally ask him to post them here.

    On the issue of Kashmir… whatever Pakistan’s status – whether Kashmiris want to join “evil” Pakistan or “shining” India is their decision not yours.

  88. PMA

    hayyer48: Jinnah was a very focused man. He fought for the freedom of India and for the economic and political rights of Muslims of India who had been down and out for almost two hundred years. What ever political posturing, maneuvering and tactics he adopted, his focus was a) independence from Briton, and b) safeguard of the economic and political rights of his people i.e. Muslims of India. In that respect he was never wrong. In politics means are to achieve the ends. He got us the best deal he possibly could.

    But in retrospect, seeing the sad state of affairs between the two neighbors, yes I do think that the Cabinet Mission Plan would have been a better option for peace between neighbors. And I do not agree with Majumdar that all Hindus under that Plan would have been converted to Islam. That is simply ridiculous. The three political and economical units created out of one empire would have been good for all of South Asians. But that is neither here not there. Now we have Pakistan minus its minorities; Bangladesh minus West Bengal; and a one big monster in the middle that has gobbled up number of Muslim political and cultural units including Kashmir. Had Kashmir not been geographically, politically, economically and culturally connected with Pakistan, chances are that India would have been successful. But in spite of her overwhelming advantages India has not been able to do so. That issue, and not the partition, has poisoned the political environment of South Asia.

    Now the question is what way forward. In my opinion India must resolve the Kashmir issue to the satisfaction of Kashmiris and then both countries have a cooling off period where every one concentrate on internal problems before looking for any kind of ‘exchanges’. Both India and Pakistan have lot of homework to do before there could be any kind of cultural exchange or economic ties between the two. There is just too much bad blood between us. For now it is better to stop at Wagah.

  89. PMA

    hayyer48: Coming back to your other points. Yes I have noticed that revisionist in India are repudiating Aryan-Dravidian theory. It is part of Hindutva Campaign that wants to project Hinduism as a monolithic creed indigenous to India. However most anthropologists reject that absurd claim.

    In our Pakistan we also have two common themes. One that we are sons and daughters of Muslim worriers and Hindu mothers. Better yet, we are descendants of Prophet Mohammad. Two that we are all Aryan-Hindu converts of Islam. The truth lies somewhere in between the two themes.

    While most Hindus of India are Aryan and Dravidian, Muslims of Pakistan and Kashmir are a blend of Arab, Persian, Central Asian and yes South Asian blood. Some would say that the percentage of non-South Asian ‘blood’ is not all that great. But true or not that argument has no relevance here as Pakistan is a geography and religion based state and not a race-based state.

    But the fact remains that in our collective racial tapestry and make up we Pakistanis are some what different than most Hindu-Indians. Mind you here I speak only in an anthropological and not in a racial superiority/inferiority sense. In realty it does not make any difference as ones racial make up is neither a matter of pride nor of shame. As Muslims we are taught of equality of mankind. Pakistanis because who they are have a natural affinity with Central Asian and Persian cultures. It too is our heritage.

  90. hayyer48

    PMA: All this is pretty wonderful and I can hardly dispute what you have said; nor do I intend to.
    The topic of India, Kashmir and all the pre-partition posturing is now discussed to death but the issues that RR raised are still talab e jawab.
    Are there any other solutions except the ones I suggested?

  91. Id and Vandana ji – the two rational readers:
    thankssssss
    Your interventions are much appreciated. I am also sad to see that debate here is lost to mini-battles of wits and nerves with a know-all attitude and acerbic point-scoring – this post lamented this
    what an irony – brutal reality faces you each time you want to underscore an ideal..

  92. PMA

    hayyer48: Raza and I are on the same page; for the most part. However in this article in his journalistic pursuits he may be a bit overreacting. But that is OK. Most intelligent Pakistanis know that Jinnah was a pragmatic person ready to accept any solution as long as it solidly safeguarded the political and economic interests of Muslims of India. True he was frustrated by the Hindu leadership at every step of the way and at the end he did not get all what he initially aimed for but he did his best. He was not a prophet or a ‘maha-atama’. He was a man with all the weaknesses of human beings. But we Pakistanis are very proud and thankful for the hard work of our Baba-e-Qaum, Quaid-e-Azam, Mohammad Ali Jinnah. We did not start out to have our own country but our piece of the imperial pie. Over half century of struggle the events took shape the way they did and after 1930 we were on the course of setting up our country. I hope I am clear in my response but if you have any specific question for me, please tell me. I am not a scholar like Raza, Yassar, Majumdar and yourself, but I’ll try to answer my best. Regards.

  93. azhar aslam

    Hayyer

    what solutions have you suggested. Can you please write again ?

  94. Majumdar

    RR sb,

    Sorry being part of the group that derailed the discussions. Anyways little about MAJ (pbuh)’s appreciation in India.

    Official India has always denounced him in the worst of terms. At the same most common middle class educated Indians incl Hindoos have admired him for his honesty, for his attempts to forge a joint nationhood and for his steadfastness in standing up to Muslim interests once he realised that the above was not possible. Today there is far greater understanding among people who know of the circumstances behind Partition and authors like YLH have contributed much to this understanding, (incl for myself)

    Regards

  95. simply61

    RR,here’s hoping that newer and fresher lines of thoughts emerge with your (and all other) next post.
    We all have to stop picking at this scab of Partition and bleeding ourselves all over again everytime any talk of any part of the sub continent is started.

    Maybe if we Indians limited ourselves to reading Pakistani sites without commenting, things might not derail so quickly……….but then again that would not be a dialogue at all.

    So fingers crossed for the next post. 🙂

  96. Majumdar

    PMA sb,

    And I do not agree with Majumdar that all Hindus under that Plan would have been converted to Islam.

    No, they cud be forced to emigrate eg Bangladesh.

    and a one big monster in the middle that has gobbled up number of Muslim political and cultural units including Kashmir

    Agreed on Kashmir, but which are the other “Muslim political and cultural units” which India has gobbled up.

    Regards

  97. Amitabh

    Excellent article. I am a big fan of both Ayesha Jalal and The Sole Spokesman. I would only quibble with the use of the phrase “quest for absolute power” with respect to Nehru and Patel. “Absolute power” is overstating things just a bit for my taste, since I associate that with Stalin, Mao, and perhaps others who oversaw the construction of totalitarian states. (I will not deny, however, that Nehru wanted a strong center in Delhi to oversee his centrally planned socialist miracle.)

    Moreover, while I am very sympathetic to the Cabinet Mission Plan and am always playing “what if?” in my own mind, the fact is that the Congress had a legitimate and actually huge concern requiring a stronger center at Delhi than would have been permitted under the CMP: the absorption of more than 500 princely states into the Indian union. Many of these states would have acceded on their own, but many required a strong central government that could wield both carrot (all the benefits of being part of the larger union) and stick (implicit threat of military action, even if essentially unused). Under the CMP, Nehru would have been head of a “Group A” that would have required the acquiescence of Groups B and C before any kind of military mobilization could even have been implied.

    Maybe the three groups would have come to an agreement requiring all princely states immediately to accede to the larger federation or face military force. But then, would we not have shifted the fight onto other terrain — i.e., fights over which principalities would join which group? The Muslim-majority Group B could well have refused to authorize any such legislation until the Hindu-majority Group A agreed that the principality of Hyderabad would be a non-contiguous part of Group B rather than A.

    Over time, either this could have produced a give-and-take in which the three groups learned to coexist through compromise; or it would have let to rapid dissolution of the federation with the three groups becoming independent states — each with large populations of Hindus and Muslims.

  98. alok

    Majumdar,
    **********************************************
    Official India has always denounced him in the worst of terms. At the same most common middle class educated Indians incl Hindoos have admired him for his honesty, for his attempts to forge a joint nationhood and for his steadfastness in standing up to Muslim interests once he realised that the above was not possible. Today there is far greater understanding among people who know of the circumstances behind Partition and authors like YLH have contributed much to this understanding, (incl for myself)
    ***********************************************

    Nothing could be farther from truth. Jinnah is held in absolute contempt in India and rightly so.
    Majumdar dont bluff.

  99. yasserlatifhamdani

    wow… you are back after claiming “one less traffic from India”.

  100. alok

    yes after Raza published all my comments…have forgiven you and him in true gandhian spirit… 😉

  101. YLH

    Yeah whatever …I can say with reasonable certainty that Raza did not delete any of your posts nor did he do what you accuse him of.

  102. alok

    really….so i was making a fuss without any reason….how unreasonable! may be raza can clarify….

  103. PMA

    Central to Rumi’s complain is: “distortion of history and its flagrant abuse by the ruling classes of Pakistan”.

    Well, when did that become a news?

    States, particularly weak and insecure states do that all the time. All players of Sub-continental ‘political chess game’ are guilty of that. In post colonial period each one of the three states is busy re-writing history from its own self-serving nationalistic point of view. We all understand that. Why to get so emotional over that? Unless we are upset that the border between India and Pakistan has become a ‘hard border’!

    Jinnah and his family were from Bombay. They had properties there. So may be he wanted to have vacation in Bombay. But with few exceptions how many Pakistanis want to have vacation in India?

    There is an understandable nostalgia among ‘immigrants’ on both side of the border about the lands of their parents and grand parents. Compared to the total population that particular group is of very small percentage. But somehow that small group appears to be populating ‘India-Pakistan’ blogosphere. As long as we keep on writing books and articles about the “partition” and keep on debating sixty or hundred years old history, the subject will never die out and the wounds will become afresh each time we open the subject. It appears that certain groups on both sides of the border have motives to keep the issue alive.

    I invite Raza Rumi and Indian visitors of this blog to move on. Let us concern our self with the socio-economic issues of today. Let us resolve the Kashmir dispute to the satisfaction of Kashmiris so that we all could move on. Richard Holbrooke is in South Asia. Let us see what could be done to reduce Pakistani anxieties about growing Indian presence in our backyard. Let us bury the past and transpose our self to the present. Shell we?

  104. hayyer48

    PMA: I couldn’t agree more. The question is how.
    Can we live as good neighbours with an unsolved Kashmir? If we cant, and Kashmir is the key then we shall wait a long time.
    You would be surprised about the visiting part. Most Indians are happy in their own states and rarely go out. The affluent do holiday at the resorts or abroad but there is no line waiting to visit Pakistan just as I am sure there is none to visit India except those with relations. For the most part interest in each other’s countries is just curiousity.
    Azhar Alam: If you go through my initial comment the suggestion is there. It is of a piece with the rest.
    Generally speaking, both states have severe problems. Indians just seem less concerned about theirs, and optimistic that in the long run they will sort themselves out.
    RR’s heart felt plaint deserves an answer from his readers. Can we suggest anything more.

  105. hayyer48

    PMA: Thank you for your kind offer to discuss these issues further. I am no scholar. I do a lot of reading but that is all.
    I would like to take you up on your offer for a further discussion on issues that I think remain despite partition, but we may bore the hell out of other readers. I am not sure whether it would be welcomed. Regards to you.

  106. Pingback: Lost Imaginations*

  107. sai

    India is by no means a perfect democracy or secular nation. But any objective observer would readily agree that it towers over its two two neighbors in both these aspects. Especially in case of secularism, which is a more relevant point given the partition and Jinnah vs. gandhi debate. I think one piece of statisics is more than enough to prove that: while almost the entire minority population in Pakistan was wiped off post-partition and the the Bangaldeshi hindus have been suffering a slower death (population down from 30% in 1947 to less than 10% now), the muslim population in India has actually increased. It would have been most easy, in fact, natural, for the Hindu society to have succumbed to religious fanaticism and do to its muslim minority, what was being done to the Hindus in the muslim majority provinces. It did not happen because of the deep moral leadership and strength of principles of superhuman proportions shown by two great men – Gandhiji and Nehru, especially the former. The two were absolutely clear that ethnic cleansing of muslims in India should not be the response and strained every nerve to make sure that it did not happen. That is secularism to me, because it helped saved millions of lives from a genocide. And the foundation laid by the two ensures to this day that the muslim community in India, is by and large safe and they are absolutely free to practise their religion. I am not for a moment denying that Indian muslims face serious issues, but atleast we as a society did not allow the religious madness to overpower us – so there is still hope that these issues would get solved as our democratic and secular ethos take deeper roots. Contrast this with Jinnah’s success (or failure) in coverting his secular vision into reality. That speech of his, outlining his secular vision for Pakistan was no doubt compelling – but what did he do during the critical period of pre- and post partition to translate this vision into reality? Why did he so absolutely fail in stopping the genocide in all the provinces of the then pakistan?

  108. Amitabh

    Sai, I am as much a fan of Indian secularism as the next guy, but your theory does not entirely explain why in 1947 Punjab was almost /entirely/ “cleansed” on both sides of the Indo-Pak border. The two sides of Bengal did not see the same degree of ethnic cleansing, but that may say something about Bengali culture; I don’t know. The partition of Punjab, however, caused the virtual extermination of Hindus and Sikhs on the Pakistani side and of Muslims on the Indian side.

    I will give you this: Jinnah’s “vision” (if you believe Jalal, it was less a vision and more just trying to make do with the scraps of his original dream that he was left with) of a secular and pluralistic society was more likely to fail from the outset because the nation he sought to create was defined from the outset as homeland for a particular religious community. I will not deny that Gandhi’s campaigns were laden with Hindu symbolism, but the Congress was explicit and consistent in its position that it simply sought to inherit British India in its entirety, with all of its peoples and communities within it. The Congress’s independence movement reflected this thematic emphasis as well. But had the positions been inverted, with the Congress instead being the “Hindu League” campaigning to create a Hindu homeland and to leave the rest of the subcontinent to some residual state, this “Hindu-stan” would also not have remained secular for too long, despite the official professions of its leaders in some independence day speech. (As it happened, the population numbers of South Asia made such a scenario unnecessary and perhaps impossible.)

    Jinnah ostensibly, but explicitly, sought the creation of a “Muslim homeland.” And at the founding moment of nations, original definitions of goals and objectives inform everything: borders, constitutions, textbooks, national propaganda, patriotic songs, you name it; and so have a huge impact on future trajectories.

  109. yasserlatifhamdani

    Sai,

    As Amitabh said above, East Punjab was completely ethnically cleansed of Muslims under Nehru and Gandhi’s party’s rule. This despite a Muslim majority distt being given to India unfairly.

    Infact if you were to do a careful due diligence, you’d realize that between 70 to 80 percent people killed in partition violence were killed in areas that constitute India not Pakistan.

    Since Pakistan inherited Muslim majority distts in Punjab alone, one can imagine why ethnic cleansing there meant a large portion of the total number of Hindus and Sikhs but both in Bangladesh and Sindh there are significant Hindu populations.

    The reason why there are Muslims in India has nothing to do with the greatness of gandhi and Nehru but that it wasn’t possible to exterminate all of them- not that it wasn’t tried.

    As for Jinnah, his efforts in bringing violence against Hindus and Sikhs under control in Karachi and Lahore is well documented. Furthermore migrations from Karachi proper or Bengal of minorities increased after Jinnah died because so long as he was alive he tried to retain as many Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan’s service as possible- even offering high court judge positions to leading Sikhs and Hindus… But he died too soon afterwards. Ultimately his law minister – a scheduled caste Hindu- left Pakistan as well.

  110. Amitabh

    Yasser, this overstates things a bit:

    “The reason why there are Muslims in India has nothing to do with the greatness of gandhi and Nehru but that it wasn’t possible to exterminate all of them- not that it wasn’t tried.”

    I’m generally not a fan of categorical statements, and to say that the thematic emphasis on secularism in India’s independence movement had nothing to do with the secular character of the country’s government and with the preservation of the Muslim population isn’t really accurate. I agree with you that other forces were at play, but Gandhi and Nehru did indeed have a lot to do with it. Nehru was a fierce secularist and maybe even an atheist; a different man as the first prime minister would have overseen a very different evolution of those early governing institutions, and India could have been a very different place.

    Moreover, this is a trap that Pakistanis and and north Indians fall into over and over, but please bear in mind that India is more vast than Punjab and U.P. There are substantial — if not large — Muslim populations in Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Maharashtra, and so on. I really don’t think that in 1947 the option of migration to Pakistan was as prominently on the minds of these Muslims as it was for the Bengalis, UP-ites, and Punjabis. To say that these populations exist and flourish only because extermination was impossible — and not because it says something about the character and fabric of these ethnicities — is to overly a northern subcontinental mentality onto the west and south.

  111. yasserlatifhamdani

    In so far as Indian secularism goes Nehru did have a contribution but on partition India’s record is worse than Pakistan’s.

    The difference thus was Nehru’s 17 years v Jinnah’s 13 months.

  112. Majumdar

    Amitabh,

    but your theory does not entirely explain why in 1947 Punjab was almost /entirely/ “cleansed” on both sides of the Indo-Pak border. The two sides of Bengal did not see the same degree of ethnic cleansing

    The answer is simple. The Punjabi Hindoos, Sikhs and Muslims were sensible people who realised that they had no future with each other.

    The Bengali Hindoos were idiots of the first order, the Bengali Muslims realised that they had time and Jawahirullah on their side.

    Regards

  113. Hades

    Majumdarda,

    The Punjabi Hindoos, Sikhs and Muslims were sensible people who realised that they had no future with each other.

    Very sensible. Of course one would have wanted them to kill, rape and maim each other a bit less while this realisation dawned on them but that, of course, is a small technicality.

    The Bengali Hindoos were idiots of the first order, the Bengali Muslims realised that they had time and Jawahirullah on their side.

    One lucky race those Bangaali Musholmaans—two of the cleverest men on the sub-continent—Jinnah and Nehru—both on their side.

    Hades

  114. karim chisti

    superb post yaar

  115. Amitabh

    It’s rather easy, is it not, to sit comfortably at your laptops and talk about the virtues of ethnic cleansing? Let’s step into Life magazine’s archive and see what the Punjabis’ “sensibility” meant for those (including many in my own family) who had to make this journey by foot or by train. Be sure to look at all of the “Related Images” as well:

    http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=1fd39176b04d853b&q

  116. hayyer48

    There is a tendency to treat the partition killings by both YLH and Majumdar in a detached unfeeling way. It may be their age that causes such indifference to the human suffering. YLH somewhere else dismissed it as a pretty average event in human history.
    The most recent evidence we have of human brutality is in the Hutsi Tutsi killings and the evidence of ethnic strife in the former Yugoslavia. Darfur is a smaller example of the same sort of thing.
    People can be blase I suppose as long as they are not personally witnessed or experienced the horror.
    YLH: I would be interested in any credible studies of the on the percentages that you mention.
    You continue to imply that efforts were made to expel Muslims, root and branch from India. I have not heard of any such attempts in areas outside the Punjab. Gandhi went to Bengal to prevent an exchange of populations and largely succeeded; notwithstanding Majumdar’s reiterations that the Muslims of Bangladesh have mangaged to expel most of the Hindus there, the Hindus of UP did not try and expel the Muslims who remained though they did taunt them for remaining in India and n0t going to the country they wanted.
    There was a wide feeling that having asked for Pakistan, Muslims in India should have gone to it. There are many Hindus who still feel that way, but they are a small minority.
    I find it strange that you are unable to goodwill towards Muslims in any leader of the Congress. At worst the Congress leadership can be accused of indifference to Muslim political fears and a blindness to the consequences of this indifference The belief that all Hindu leaders are guilty of hostility to Muslims unless proved otherwise is, I would suggest, an outcome of a prejudicial conditioning.
    Most of the Muslims of the central and North India wanted Pakistan and they got it. Having got it only a small number (relatively speaking) moved to the new country. Those who remained faced a prejudice that has still not died away.
    I have tried to imagine what these Muslims were looking for in their demand for a Pakistan which they well knew they would not be part of, but it escapes my comprehension. Given the lack of empathy between Urdu speaking Muslims and those of the Punjab what did they hope to gain by creating the creation of an independent Northwest.

  117. yasserlatifhamdani

    Hayyer,

    Lets get a few things straight. It was the Indian government that had described partition violence as “mere disturbances” and it was the Pakistan government that described it as a “genocide”. This is on the UN record. Somehow 60 years later, Indians want to use the violence to justify why we were wrong in the first place.

    For me even a single human life would be too much… when I described it as an average human event, it was not to belittle it but a response to the constant refrain from the Indians. Compared to the violence that the world has gone through in the world wars, holocaust, Rwanda etc, I have no choice but to describe it as such. It was a statistical comment and not an emotional one.

    Now what was the number of dead at partition… well I have relied on Penderel Moon and H V Hodson. There is a whole range of scholars … the range is between 120 000 to 587 000. If you read with an open mind you will realize that all the claims I have made are quite accurate.

    On the issue of “outside Punjab”… I was quite clear that it is impossible. However to say that it wasn’t attempted is to delude yourself. My in-laws are migrants from Nagpur …. I’d say that is not Punjab is it? Given that an overwhelming number of Mohajirs hail from UP, Maharashtra and Bihar… should tell you something about the truth of your rather sad claim.

    And you have no greater claim on humanity than I- get that in your head. It is therefore requested that you refrain from distorting what I say.

  118. Majumdar

    Hayyer mian,

    The death and other atrocities that accompanied Partition took place becuse of Lord Mountbottom’s tearing hurry to get back to London and also becuase of Gandhi’s refusal to accept that Partition was inevitable whereas it was very clear that INC had accepted, even welcomed, Partition by mid 1946 itself. YLH can share evidence ( a letter by VP Menon) to that effect. But that was not to be and INC’s acceptance of Partition became open knowledge only by June 1947 barely a couple of months before actual Partition with the result that threatened minorities had no time at all to make arrangements for safety (at home or in exile).

    Gandhi went to Bengal to prevent an exchange of populations and largely succeeded

    He succeded only 50%. That is he prevented an expulsion of Muslims from West Bengal but he cudnt prevent the reverse- the expulsion of Hindoos from East Bengal. All he succeded in doing was that he converted a jhatka of Hindoos of EB into a steady halaal.

    What Gandhi’s largesse and Jawahirullah (Nehru Liquat Pact) did is ensure that India will lose Assam and much of West Bengal one day, a rare occasion when a small “weak” neighbour gobbles up a part of a bigger neighbour.

    Yasser mian,

    Hayyer mian’s contention that Indians never attempted a largescale expulsion of Muslims from the minority provinces is by and large correct. For every Mojo in Pakistan, I can show you at least 5+ IMs in Bihar/UP/CP/Deccan.

    Regards

  119. yasserlatifhamdani

    Majumdar

    You are right about Menon… his letter of 23rd January 1946 is on the record. I’ve quoted it elsewhere.

    As for the rest… Well…I have already said that this has nothing to do with anything but the fact that it was impossible to do i.e. cleanse the Muslims from UP and other areas of India outside Punjab. However, the attempt was made and was made by Congress is what my research shows. Maybe not Gandhi and Nehru atleast openly… but Patel was certainly involved.

    Pakistan was in any event carved out of largely Muslim majority areas… and that too minus the main Non-muslim districts within those areas. So it makes sense why you might have 5 Indian Muslas v. 1 Paki Hindu… it does not however prove that an attempt wasn’t made.

    You will also appreciate that in East Bengal there is a sizeable Hindu population… and so is the case in Sindh (which is under-reported as I have argued on several occasions).

    The basic point in any event was regarding Punjab… and remember you had – thanks to Mountbatten- retained a large Muslim population in Gurdaspur … which was then surrounded and killed… my father used to recall that even as a boy in the 1950s those bloodsoaked trains were parked at Mughalpura Railway station. Violence at partition was genocide. But that genocide happened mostly in the areas of Gurdaspur.

  120. yasserlatifhamdani

    PS: There is no need to give Gandhi any credit for the Muslims left in West Bengal… for the p0pulation numbers of Hindus in East Bengal I am guessing is almost similar to the population numbers of Muslims in West Bengal.

    So Gandhi’s role must have been marginal at best… either that or Bengali muslims were more civilized than Bengali Hindus to have managed without the “Mahatma’s” intervention.

  121. simply61

    How many tims must these stories be revisited without being able to accept the undeniable fact that the demonic violence erupted and consumed innocents on both sides of the border(present one) and that each community wreaked violence with a vengeance wherever they got the upper hand…..?
    Hindus,Muslims and Sikhs can all keep pointing fingers as to who started it but was there really a switch that was shifted to ‘on’ position and then things happened?

    These were ordinary people,caught up in uncertainity,fear and rumour in equal mix…..add to it local power lords who probably stood to gain in the event of a ethnic cleansing and you can easily see why neighbors of generations parted ways in such an abominable manner…

    Those trains of brutalised corpses went both ways,women were dishonored and kidnapped everywhere…….

    no matter how much one quotes from documents and blames Gandhi/Jinnah/Nehru/Tara Singh etc etc the ground realities,as told by migrants/survivors on both sides, are frighteningly similar……..just the lead cast is different.

  122. Majumdar

    YLH,

    for the p0pulation numbers of Hindus in East Bengal I am guessing is almost similar to the population numbers of Muslims in West Bengal.

    Completely wrong.

    The total Hindoo population of East Bengal in 1951 was 11 million out of a total of 44 million (25%). The total Hindoo population of Bangladesh in 2001 was estimated at around 10% of the total population of 130 million or around 13 million. The total Muslim population of West Bengal in 1951 was around 5-6 million or around 15%. In 2001 it is around 20 million or 25%. In Assam it has grown from around 2 million in 1951 Census to around 8 million or 30% in 2001 Census. All these numbers can be verified from publicly availbale sources (unlike most Hindoos you are familiar with, I don’t pull out numbers from you know what)

    You dont have to be a Phd in mathematics or demographics to know what the above trends mean.

    Regards

  123. Majumdar

    And you can read up the resignation letter of your second favourite pillar of Pakistan- Joginder Nath Mandal to corroborate what happened to the Hindoos of East Bengal.

    Regards

  124. yasserlatifhamdani

    Simply,

    Could you tell me who your post is addressed to?
    Why do you not take credit for what went on in Gurdaspur? Why must it always be “equal”?

    Look I didn’t start blaming anyone… but if people like Sai or whoever are going to come here and pretend that Indians merely facilitated Muslims in getting up and going to Pakistan… I have the moral responsibility to tell you exactly where the violence took place.

    Most of it took place in Gurdaspur. We would rather you just say sorry and be on your way.

  125. yasserlatifhamdani

    Majumdar,

    Ha ha. No you don’t … which is why you’ve answered your own question haven’t you?

    We were talking about partition violence right? If in 1951, East Bengal (East Pakistan) had a population of 25% Hindus…. then what I’ve said above about Bengali Muslims carrying on very well without the Mahatma holds doesn’t it.

    My issue was with you giving credit to Mahatmaji when he was already dead in 1948.

    There is no denying that as time went on and Pakistan moved away from Jinnah’s vision, Hindus left Pakistan.

    But till 1951- after three years of the partition … it is quite clear that East Bengal (East Pakistan) had a significantly higher Hindu population than the corresponding Muslim population in West Bengal. This is a damning statistic in terms of partition violence…

    Now would you be kind enough to tell us the figures for

    1. Muslims in West Bengal in 1947

    2. Hindus in East Bengal in 1947

    My guess is – hypothesis if you must that a comparison between 1947 and 1951 will show the following:

    1. East Pakistani Hindu population more or less the same.

    2. A sharp decline in West Bengal Muslim population.

    This would prove that Mahatma’s impact was not even marginal!

  126. PMA

    I woke up this morning only to find a whole bunch of e-mails in my inbox. Looks like half a dozen of guys at ‘Pak Tea House’ are still debating 1947. On one side are the ‘visiting’ Hindus and Sikhs of India busy proving how wrong it was for Muslims of Northwest to have a country of their own. On other side is the ‘lone host’ YLH pinning blames on Gandhi for wanting ALL of the empire to himself.

    What purpose do these debates, yet, these posts at ‘Pak Tea House’ serve?

    Get hold of yourself fellows. That WAS the generation of our fathers and grandfathers. Most of them are dead now. Try to concentrate on the socio-economic problems of our respective countries now. Let the past go. Move on guys.

  127. Amitabh

    Thank you, PMA.