Do you honestly think the world is not justified in thinking us as a buncha crazies?-YLH

From Dawn:

woman sentenced to death in blasphemy case
From the Newspaper
(7 hours ago) Today

Human rights activists want the controversial legislation repealed, saying it was exploited for personal enmity and encourages extremism. – File Photo

LAHORE: A Christian mother of five has been sentenced to death for blasphemy, the first such conviction of a woman, sparking protests from rights groups on Thursday.

Asia Bibi, 45, was handed down the death sentence by a court in Nankana district in central Punjab on Monday.

Pakistan has yet to execute anyone for blasphemy. Ms Asia’s case dates back to June 2009 when she was asked to fetch water while out working in the fields. But a group of Muslim women labourers objected, saying that as a non-Muslim she should not touch the water bowl.

A few days later the women went to a local cleric and alleged that Ms Asia made derogatory remarks about the Prophet (peace be upon him). The cleric went to police, who opened an investigation.

Ms Asia was arrested in Ittanwalai village and prosecuted under Section 295-C of the PPC, which carries the death penalty.

Husband Ashiq Masih, 51, said he would appeal her death sentence.

Human rights activists want the controversial legislation repealed, saying it was exploited for personal enmity and encourages extremism.

“The blasphemy law is absolutely obscene and it needs to be repealed in totality,” Human Rights Watch spokesman Ali Dayan Hasan said. —AFP


Filed under Pakistan


  1. amar

    The most blasphemous ideology is actually islam. No ideology or persons misuse the word “god” and the name of god as much as do islam and muslims.

    Killing animals in the name of a god, persecuting non-believers (and especially ex-muslims) in the name of a god, suppressing women in the name of god, practising arabic imperialism, hegemony and racism in the name of a god, killing 166 human beings in the name of an arab god in Mumbai in Nov. 2008 etc. etc. – the list is very long in deed and practice.

    Do the muslims have the intelligence and the honesty to realize this?

  2. poke

    In pakistan and among muslims it takes two women to equal one man as witness as they are intellectually inferior, so going by the logic can this intellectually inferior women commit a crime… or may be they accept kaffir women are intelligent .
    The article smacks of caste system also and proves a point that muslims are clinging to age old hindu social tradition and islam could’nt change it .

  3. YLH

    Article 17 of the Evidence Act as amended by General Zia applies in a very limited context ie financial transactions.

    Does not apply to hudood etc.

  4. Milestogo

    Have you guys heard of this brilliant Pakistani logic that now I have heard multiple times on Internet – it goes like this:

    because most western countries and india proclaim to be secular countries they need to treat the Muslims minorities at par with the majority,

    However because Pakistan and other Muslim countries do not claim to be secular countries – rather these are officialy Islamic countries – therefore there is no binding requirement to treat the non-Muslim minorities at par with the Muslim majority.

  5. YLH

    Not just Pakistanis but many misguided apologists for Muslim minorities elsewhere also take this shameless line of argument.

  6. Amaar


    Islam is abused much more by these idiots than are the Non-Muslims. So stop your filth and venom!

  7. Amaar


    As a Muslim it hurts me to see such senseless violation of human decency.

  8. Bilal Ahmad

    In a country with hostile environment like ours, I don’t expect any Non-Muslim to dare to say anything insulting to any of our religious personalities. These blasphemy laws have made theocratic and religious forces uncontrollable by the law. Some months ago we heard about two innocent brothers (because they haven’t been convicted by court yet) who were killed by attackers outside courts.

    Our state can’t save burning Christians in Gojra or killed brothers outside courts, it can just make blasphemy laws, whereby any minority citizen (which are third class citizen as per our constitution) can be arrested “legally” so half of the job is done, and then enthusiastic mullas and their devotees arrange mob and kill him easily, so the whole job is done. And nobody has ever been caught, as it is not a serious crime to State and not even to us as people, in fact it is a service to Islam in popular culture in Pakistan. This hateful attitude wants Muslim countries free of Non-Muslims, and consequently it will compel West to become free of Muslims. Next we can imagine what this hateful attitude will lead us to.

    Isn’t our State on same path as any of Al-Qaeeda or Taliban affiliated state would be. If Taliban are beheading anyone they suspect to be American spy, then they are doing whatever we as a nation support and love. We are hateful people and this hatred will diminish nothing but ourselves. So to all minority members, don’t expect anything from leadership of this country, they love to say “Muslim will cease to be Muslim and Hindu will cease to be Hindu” but actually nobody takes it more than a joke in this nation.

  9. Maryanne Khan

    I am no longer interested in participating in this discussion, or any other, after witnessing the utterly insane tirade launched elsewhere this week by one who is condemning a ‘shameless line of argument’. The posts on LUBP posted by the (dis) honourable co-editor of this journal were enough to distance me forever.


    (a merely conventional expression in this case.)

  10. Raza Raja

    Frankly the issue is not the law, it is the sick mentality of our society. A law is just the reflection of that sick bigotry mentality.
    Do you really think that this law can be repealed? No it can not be, because we are sick people.
    Do you think that minorities are oppressed because of this law. No they are oppressed because of the sick bigoted attitude of Pakistani Muslims. Admit it, we are sick people. Shame on us for not even raising voice when in Gojra people were burnt alive. Shame on us and our parliament for passing second amendment. Shame on for using Islam for political purposes. Shame on us for everything

  11. YLH


    Why don’t you have the moral courage to denounce the fascists who attacked us without any rhyme or reason simply because we condemned an attack on Sherry Rahman.

    If you are not interested …don’t post. Simple. PTH is not going to die off because people like you- at best marginal contributors- don’t post here.

    So let us see you not return here and stick to that third rate fascist website called “critical” PPP.

  12. YLH

    “(Dis) honourable”

    I favor integrity and honesty and fairness above relativist and hypocritical notions crooks forward when they can’t defend the indefensible.

    If that makes me dishonorable – thank god I don’t have your notions of honor.

  13. YLH


    It can’t be repealed because the crooks who call themselves secular are not interested in secularising or reforming Pakistan.

    They are interested people like you and me … who speak up for the minorities and against fascist tendencies.

    So we must be abused …and called all sorts of names. And then you have people like the interactor above coming here and trying to derail the discussion yet again by speaking for a third rate crooked website run by third rate and crooked people.

  14. YLH

    * They are interested in abusing and attacking people like you and me.

  15. Tilsim

    A very sad and outrageous situation for this poor woman. I hope the superior courts do the right thing. In the meantime, she and her loved ones will suffer immensely. The blasphemy law deserves contempt from whichever angle one looks at it. It does not matter whether she is guilty or not; the law and the associated punishment is a perversion and distortion.

    Notice the role of the mullah in this episode. He is the guardian of this form of perverted religiousity. I am more convinced than ever that Pakistanis cannot solve this without finding a way to take on and neutralise the mullah.

  16. amar

    to amaar

    Just look at how non-muslim population components are dwindling in the muslim world. In Pakistan (West) the component has fallen from 20% to less than 2%. In BD (Pakistan East) from 40% to 10%. Since 1400 years muslims are carrying out a relentless attack against non-muslims in terms of territory and demography.

  17. Ahsan

    What is irking me is that where the hell ‘liberal parties’ are? Why don’t they bring an ‘Amendment’ which reverses all these incomprehensible laws from second amendment to blasphemy? Or are they scare?

    but you know I am a fool because I am expecting these things from a party who actually surrendered its liberalism to right-wing forces when it declared a certain group ‘Kafir’.

    Unless PPP and all other ‘progressive’ parties wipe out these laws from the constitution, their ‘Liberalism’ will always be in question.

  18. YLH

    The said liberal party is more interested in attacking party stalwarts like Sherry Rahman … and using its thirdrate crooks and storm troopers to abuse PTH and its editors.

  19. Straight-Talk

    This is a case genuine introspection, at least the nation should show some mercy on a poor woman. Is she capable of doing the act of blasphemy? or her act of any derogative remarks has any bearing of a great religion such as Islam?

    I want to ask YLH, being a lawyer, “Whether court ever thinks humanly and apply its logic on the basis of the merit of case or simply it treats all the case of blasphemy alike and proclaims the judgement strictly according to rule book, ruling out any chance of mercy.

    I mean to say,….. Does her act of blasphemy has any inverse consequences to society at large?

    Sadly the curse like caste system and untouchability prevalent in Hindu society also found its way inside Pakistan society.

  20. Tilsim

    @ Ahsan

    Don’t expect the usual political parties to take leadership on this issue. They keep going on about reaching some sort of accomodation with the extremists (and do so in many practical ways and electorally) – we know that will mean the end of Pakistan. Citizens have to organise and put counter pressure on the political parties and the State – just like the Mullah is continuously pressuring them. If we can’t do this, then outside forces will totally isolate and even deal violently with Pakistan if the threat externalises as it surely has. The drone strikes will be nothing compared to what awaits us if this course is not reversed effectively.

  21. amar

    to straight talk

    “…curse like caste system and untouchability prevalent in Hindu society also found its way inside Pakistan society.”

    Every society, ideology, religion etc. has its specific caste system and untouchability criteria.

    You pakistani muslims have grown up blaming others always. This dishonesty keeps you backward and crying. Your supposedly glorious absolutist-final religion from Arabia has its own devils in it. When muslims are among themselves then they amplify each others’ hypocrisies and conceits. Learn now to overcome that.

  22. libertarian

    @amar: you should request YLH or Raza Rumi or someone on PTH to post on Islam. Your broad ideas would be more appropriate there.

    This is a narrow perverted law leading to a perversion of society. I think YLH has done a great job walking the line between self-flagellation (quite unhealthy) and honest introspection (the start of change).

  23. Tilsim

    BB paid with her life for just stating that we need to call a spade, a spade and then trying to rally support (p.s I am not a PPP jiyala).

    Countless Pakistani bystanders and security personnel have died in this fight. The media ignores their sacrifices because it reflects the general denial about the enemy within. It should be arguing vociferously how these attitudes are a perversion of Islam and highlighting the problems with the laws to help build a consensus amongst the public.

    We are at war and desperately need a strong (and popular) government that acts decisively to counter the oxygen and denial these groups are getting from TV channels such as GEO, AAJ and ARY. The PPP government’s performance has dashed hope. The religious parties and PML-N are part of the problem and help detract from efforts to counter extremism. The MQM is restricted to certain parts of the country and under attack from other parties. The ANP is dealing with this in traditional Pushtun ways (and is not able to confront the menace by itself). There are no magic bullets. Citizens who are against extremism and terror (from all shades of opinion) need to become politically active and put some backbone in the attitudes of their immediate family, their friends, their neighbours, their political co-workers. The Mullah has taken up the gun and taken over the state. It’s a formidable challenge for a peaceful person. The least we can do is to raise our voice against these forces more effectively. Pakistan needs organised people power to confront these nuts.

  24. D Asghar

    @YLH Bhai Sahib and other friends of PTH,

    It is quite shameful. Not very long ago, when the cartoon episode emerged, many learned and educated Pakistanis were displaying their outrage in a very pathetic manner.

    Neither Asia Bibi (even if she is guilty, which I doubt as well) nor Facebook or Salman Rushdie can do anything to impact a faith of over a billion plus people. One of my friend at another forum even hailed, “Ghazi Illum Deen”, who had killed a Hindu on such allegations in pre partition India.

    Prophet PBUH was abused by his foes and detractors, he kept on moving. That was his character. We really are lacking that trait. People who focus on their devotion can carry on. The life and world moves on. I hope and pray that the lady is set free and we don’t appear in the world as bunch of idiots and hoodlums (not that we need any more reasons). Regards.

  25. The caption of the post and the ongoing discussion really pains me. If someone has awarded a Christian woman on blasphemy, it does not mean that the ruling represents the sentiments of the majority of Pakistanis. I would say most of us have been pained to hear such a decision. And based on the caption and the text of the post, many people have got a chance to spew venom and hatred on Islam. Islam is a very peaceful religion, which is being mishandled by bigots and narrow minded people who have not themselves understood the true meaning of this great religion.

    If there was something wrong with the religion of Islam, a lot of people in USA and other Western countries would not have been embracing Islam. So I would request the readers not to air their emotions here. Rather we should condemn the issue by giving logic and rationale, which unfortunately is not forthcoming. Let us condemn the sentence so as to create awareness about issues that hurt us rather than throwing the entire nation into shame and disgust.

    I would also request the PTH to moderate such posts so that these do not draw unnecessary and harmful response. We are already suffering from wrong interpretations of Islam, and let not such posts add fuel to fire.

  26. YLH


    Did a court under the laws of Pakistan sentence a woman to death or not …

    Please answer the question.
    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  27. Sardar Khan.

    Why you seculars are up in arm about the blasphamy law?It is not only exist in Pakistan but also sevsral western countries as well so called civilised countries you admire.What about the Bible Bashers of USA,to whom you failed to condenm for burning of Holy Koran.As for as I remmember you people saying it was the Muslim’s fault.
    If you are so good,then condenm all who say bad things to anyone’s religion/whatever it is.I don’t find any of you prepared to stand for this basic right of each person believe what he thinks is right for him.Stop Islam and Muslim bashing for your own aim of making Pakistan as secular in name as india(Bunderstan/the worse country for miniorities in the world).

  28. Humanity

    “The caption of the post and the ongoing discussion really pains me. If someone has awarded a Christian woman on blasphemy, it does not mean that the ruling represents the sentiments of the majority of Pakistanis.”

    The Pakistani court of law has awarded the woman a death sentence. That does represent the sentiments of the majority of the Pakistanis. If the court sentence does not represent your sentiments then fight to repeal the law. For God’s sake, show some integrity instead of crying out loud for your emotions getting hurt by the caption.

    This is a sentence against human conscience and human dignity. This nation is morally dead. They claimed victory of Islam by enforcing these barbaric laws which were pushed by the ignorant mullah with the blessing of the butcher of Palestinians, the devil incarnate, Zia.

  29. YLH

    Why don’t you point out where death penalty exists for “blasphemy” other than Pakistan.

  30. Tilsim

    @ JALAL

    I sympathise that generalisations against Islam are ridiculous. You, I, D.Asghar etc may not accept this law as Islamic (the very opposite in fact in my view). However the fact is that the Mullahs and their sympathisers believe that this is very much an Islamic law. They have succeeded in foisting their view onto the statute books. Most Pakistanis are illiterate in a lot of matters and specially religion matters. They don’t know any better than what they are told by the Mullah or by a ‘pious’ relative and follow him blindly so they take Islam as an absolute thing and are fearful and unable to challenge the Mullah’s interpretation of Islamic jurispudence and religious ethos. It’s really important that the stranglehold of the mullah on all matters religious be broken in Pakistan. Unfortunately too many Pakistanis who have become interested in religion over the last decades, are not exercising their brain and conscience and falling into the trap of extremist views. The situation is abysmal and really grates. Either Pakistanis en masse will informally or formally give up on Islam (I don’t believe that will happen anytime soon) or they will have to actively challenge the mullah and all the fundamentalist/islamist Muslims who believe that Shariah is well represented by Pakistan’s blasphemy law as well as other such laws .

    The Nankana district court’s sentencing and conviction reflects that the court system is increasingly penetrated by this immoral way of thinking – all in the name of Islam. The wind is indeed blowing in the wrong direction so it’s easy to give up. The question is whether Pakistanis are capable of bringing about change. I think one has to strive for change – in fact it’s our moral duty in this case, regardless of our background. The more religious minded Pakistani muslims, in particular, should be in the forefront for repealing these laws. It is sad to see that instead many defend this law. A lot of soul searching is required and cases like these need to be really highlighted.

  31. Humanity

    @Sardar Khan

    You really seem to believe you are perfect and hence you must be God. How many times do you worship yourself every day?

    God have mercy on you!

  32. Humanity

    The current situation in Pakistan is what historians refer to as the dark age.

    History tells us the people usually survive natural disasters, like flood, drought, earthquake. Natural disasters are God’s way of telling people to mend their ways. When man becomes stubborn and starts to act like God, then natural disasters layered with man made travesties cause societies to collapse and nations are simply wiped away. God waylays the people who practice oppression and tyranny in the name of God.

    The mullahs and mullah followers should pay attention to the stories in the Quran.

  33. YLH

    Pakistan is the sick man of Emerging Asia. Like Turkey, we shall rise and undo these chains one day.

  34. D. Asghar

    @Sardar Bhai,
    “What about the Bible Bashers of USA,to whom you failed to condenm for burning of Holy Koran.As for as I remmember you people saying it was the Muslim’s fault.”

    No known Muslim over here or the forums that I frequent favored the stance of Pastor Jones. People with sanity realized that he was acting like a typical Mullah of Pakistan just shouting his mouth off. Every one here and at other places (even Non Muslims) condemned his act, and requested Muslims to demonstrate restraint. We knew what his move was about, to gain some real cheap publicity.

    Now if you think that desecrating a Holy Book, whether it is the Bible, Torah or Bhagvad Geeta is a noble thing then you have all the rights to exercise your freedom of speech as well. But you will find very few people besides your shadow with you on that one. Peace.

  35. Kaalket

    The Books cant be Holy , they are all written, dictated by men. Life and Truth are much more sacred than any Book. There is no such thing as God getting angry or God acting with religious prejudice . These are figament of imagination by imature mind.

  36. D. Asghar

    @kaalket bhayya,

    Now that you are drifting away from the original subject at hand. All modern day laws that you see in developed or developing countries for that matter, where do those laws stem from? Think about that. You may find the roots in some of these “revealed books.” I respect your disagreement , but certainly cannot discard certain facts which are undeniable.

    It is through these books that we learn how to treat fellow human beings, how to conduct trade, the basis of morality, etc. etc. What is right and why is it right and what is wrong and why is it wrong. It is up to the human mind to apply logic and see what is prescribed as right whether it is right or not or what is wrong and immoral is in fact wrong or immoral or not. Humble Regards.

  37. readinglord

    You are great dear YLH but, excuse me, some time you get overzealous and over sensitive.

    The blasphemy law, they say, was passed only to check lynching on account of blasphemy which the sharia of the illam deeni culture ordains. But the law practically failed to check lynching on the accusation of blasphemy and rather resulted in putting oil to the fire. So the problem is not the law but the illam-deeni culture which believes only in lynching the accused of blasphemy even if acquitted by the court.

    The question is; what any law can mean for the people with a mind-set of a suicide bomber.

  38. Tilsim

    Dil ka kanwal jo roz o shab

    rehta shagufta tha so ab

    us ka ye abtar haal hai

    ek phool kumlaya hua

    toota hua bikhra hua

    ronda para hai khaak per

    – Aksar shab e tanhai mei

  39. Tilsim

    gul karo shamain,

    bhara do may-o-meena-o-ayag

    apnay be khawab kiwaron ko maqafal kar lo

    ab yahan koi nahin koi nahin aaye ga

    – Faiz

  40. YLH, I’m surprised by this post. Why is this outrageous? It’s expected in an Islamic country that non-Muslims cannot blaspheme against your religion under pain of death. Check the laws of Saudi Arabia, the native speakers of the language of your religion. It’s a sign of insecurity to me but hardly unusual or unexpected for an Islamic country like Pakistan. Unless you’re calling for Pakistan to cease being an Islamic country that follows Quranic Law, I’m not quite sure why you’re so outraged by this law??!

    @readinglord: Liked your post.

    I do feel sad for the woman and especially her helpless kids. But hopefully they won’t be as stupid as this woman, and will get with the program by accepting Islam, as their country wants them to if they want a life of dignity. The woman ought to have done this too, or emigrated to a more equal country where her faith would be irrelevant to her value as a human being and a fellow citizen. It’s a harsh penalty, but she wouldn’t be in this position if she’d convert. She can and should still do this to save her skin (as Indians have done for centuries).

  41. YLH


    Lagda tu nawa aya eh sohniya.
    *** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***

  42. I knew my post will be subject to harsh criticism as most of the readers would only read the first few lines of it. I urged al to view the issue logically and not emotionally. But including YLH and many from our neighboring country have made it more emotional and controversial. The religion, I say again, has nothing to do with what all have happened.

    I am afraid most of us have not understood the Islam except reciting the Holy Quran in Arabic as was taught to us in childhood. This bashing the religion with its scant knowledge and understanding has resulted into defaming it and being ashamed of it. The problem with us is that we do not have scholars who are enlightened, who have understood the essence of it and spread its true meaning. Whatever we know of our religion is through sermons we hear from illiterate prayer leaders, I won’t call them Imams as they do not qualify the status, who have been made to memorize a number of verses and some historical anecdotes to press home their view point or that of the segment they belong to and not of Islam.
    As for one comment from abroad that non-Muslims were forced to accept Islam due to pressures from the Islamic regimes, I would say the same thing as now Muslim girls are forced in wedlock outside Islam. So it is the majority game where bigots rule.

    The need of the hour for the so called literates who can express themselves in English to understand Islam and talk more rationally rather than emotionally to resolve issues that have been made controversial. Let us not leave Islam and the religion to the illiterates. It is equally our moral obligation to understand our religion being educated, if not literates, and interpret it as it should have been.

    I for myself pity the women so sentenced, and do hope sanity would prevail and the issue will be resolved. But we need to talk and discuss such issues more openly and rationally to make let everyone live in peace. At the same time, we must also learn to tolerate each other, no matter what our caste or creed, and accommodate each other’s view point more rationally and openly than we do today. Let such incidents not be used as platforms for bashing of Muslim or Islam or for that matter any other religion for that matter.

  43. YLH


    The question I must ask you again… do you think it is fair to punish people with death for something they might have said or spoken words?

    It seems to me that you are interested less in the fate of the poor woman and more with the honor of Islam in a country which is predominantly Muslim. How ironic.

  44. @YLH
    Perhaps you have failed to grasp the substance of what I am saying. y both posts condemn the decision and have said that sanity should prevail to review the decision. I do not know what more you want me to say.

    Having said that, I also said that we the so called educated, if not litereate, translate our religon to spread pace and not hatred.

    That is why I say to you not to be emotional but rational, only then you would understand what I have been trying to put across. Do not have one pint agenda, please.

  45. YLH

    Amazing Jalal… you insist on talking about Islam instead of unequivocally condemning the bigoted laws of our country… and then you call me emotional.

    Believe me… far from being emotional…. my concern is very logical… i.e. the world looks at Pakistan has a crazy cooky country… and I don’t like it as a Pakistani. I would rather we pull up our socks… and frankly I am not too bothered about Islam.

  46. Humanity

    @Jalal “The need of the hour for the so called literates who can express themselves in English to understand Islam and talk more rationally rather than emotionally to resolve issues that have been made controversial. Let us not leave Islam and the religion to the illiterates. It is equally our moral obligation to understand our religion being educated, if not literates, and interpret it as it should have been.”

    Let us not leave Islam and the religion to the illiterates. Let us not inject bigotry into the state statutes by the way of our ‘educated morality’ either.

    Religion of God is to promote benevolence, forgiveness, tolerance, and harmony. One does not need a PhD to understand this fact. The station and honor of the Rab-ul-alameen (swt)and the rahmatul-lilalameen (saw) do not depend on our measly interpretations and statutes. Blasphemy laws are means of oppression and tyranny and must be repealed.

  47. readinglord

    There is nothing in Quran like blasphemy law. It was not discussed or passed by the parliament so we do not know what is its exact basis. The extremists however justify lynching of blasphemous accused on the basis of the following Hadees:

    “Sunnan Abu-Dawud
    Book 38, Number 4348:
    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
    A blind man had a slave-mother (A slave-woman bearing children but not treated as a wife?) who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
    He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
    He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
    Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.”

    Mind, please, the compilation of Sunnan AbuDaud is one of the Suha Sittah, the six authetic ahadees of Sunnies which are also called ‘Quran Gher-matlu’, i.e., the Quran not recited in Salat.

  48. Talha

    @ amar

    Please do your research before stating the same old false information about dwindling minorities in Pakistan.

    Firstly the decrease in percentage only occurred because of the high increment in Muslim population owing to well known reasons. Even in India, the Muslim population percentage has increased a considerable amount.

    Now lets discuss Pakistan by itself, a major portion of our minorities were in Bangladesh (East Pakistan then). According to the 1951 census, W.Pakistan had 0.5 Mil Hindus. Today the number is in millions, 4-5 mil to be precise.

    Similarly the Christian and Ahmadi population have also increased but for some odd reason, there is no data produced by our government and usually under or no reporting occurs.

  49. amar

    to talha

    Don’t compare with 1951 but with pre-1947. Extermination of hindus from their ancient homelands (e.g. in the Sindhu river basin) through the agents and quislings of this arab ideology is a FACT. Demographic and territorial aggression by muslims against non-muslims is a FACT. No amount of pro-islamic falsification of the history narrative can erase this truth. History does not begin in 1947 or 1951 or 1985 0r 2001. It began much earlier. Dont truncate the narrative of history to suit the muslims’ wants and imperialist goals.

  50. Caroline


    When I first saw this post the first thing that came to mind was what happened to my mother when she was in nursing school back in 1940. Oh yes, she didn’t get the death sentence, but to her it was almost the same!

    Some background first. My family is from the State of Arkansas where 99% of the population back then was Protestant with very few Catholics. My mother had worked very hard to save the needed tuition to go to the best nursing school which was at St. Vincents Hospital, in Little Rock; the very best around. One morning during her senior year, in the dead of winter, it was her turn to take the urn from the chapel and go outside and cross over a large courtyard and into another building and “fetch” some water from another urn that had been “blessed” by the head Priest of the particular “order” of St. Vincents. My mother was not a Catholic and therefore did not feel that that water was going to be any more “blessed” than when the other priest was going to make it, when he dipped his fingers in it when he sprinkled it on everyone’s head for the Holy Communion.

    Therefore she slipped downstairs and drew the water into the urn from the faucet in the kitchen sink. She thought no one saw her. Anyway, later that morning, she got into line for the obligatory Holy Communion and watched as the Priest sprinkled that ordinary water over the other priests, the Mother Superior and all the nuns, and then her and all of the other nursing students and then they all went on their merry way.

    However, someone “snitched” on my mother. Two days later, on a Saturday, the Mother Superior, who seemed to have survived being sprinkled with ordinary “kitchen sink water”, called my mother into her office and my mother, who was in her senior year of nursing school was dismissed from said school and her nursing career was over! Yes, my mother did have a few words to say about the fact that if the priest who was giving the communion was “ordained”, then why wasn’t the kitchen water “as blessed” as it would have been if it had been “blessed” by the head priest, so she must have been dismissed from nursing school for blasphemy? Therefore, does Islam have the corner on blasphemy?

    I believe my point would be, all religions when taken to their fundamentalist extremes are always detrimental. My mother should have been chastised. The Christian woman should not have been disrespectful to Islam; she had to know better, however, death? This is unacceptable.

    I live right near where the idiot was going to burn the Quran. Again, he was ignorant in his extremist beliefs towards Islam. The people around here are all Islamaphobes, yet they were horrified at that man’s stupidity and insisted that he be stopped.

    So far, the word is not out here about the death sentence of this woman over blasphemy. When it does hit the news, let me assure you that you will be compared to Saudi Arabia and there are people here that are so, shall we say, “geographically challenged” that they will probably think that you are just an “extension thereof”. Sorry ’bout that! This is unfortunate.

    I support you all in this, I do understand.


  51. Prasad

    //curse like caste system and untouchability prevalent in Hindu society also found its way inside Pakistan society// Straight talk

    A Gentleman called PMA blabbered recently on a thread that Islam absorbed Mehtars created by Hinduism and made them humans. I was then wondering who were clearing all the shit piled up then…..

    Well the Gentleman’s views were his only it seems now.

  52. amar

    to prasad
    Islam collected mehtars from hindus and made them into (not humans but into) mehtars for arabs and turks. Now these guys are cleaning toilettes for rich arabs and naming their stadiums and roads and schools for some crazy arab showmen from Saudia or Libya.

  53. Talha

    @ amar

    Yes, Muslims did invade and push out the indigenous groups of the Sindhu region.

    Many also converted to Islam either through force or choice.

  54. YLH

    Due to a problem with my track ball I am unable to browse the internet … However let me state unequivocally: I DID NOT POST THE RESIGNATION AS CO-EDITOR.

    I have a commitment to Raza bhai and given that he has always stood by … I will not abandon ship the first sign of trouble. Infact Raza Rumi would have to kick me out to get rid of me.


  55. YLH

    *stood by me like a rock

  56. Bin Ismail

    Coming to the topic of discussion, may I draw the kind attention of all participants to some points, that in my humble opinion are very relevant:

    1. With respect to the station of “Prophethood”, which means in the capacity of being Divine Appointees, all prophets are worthy of reverence. According to Quran, believers are expected not to differentiate between one prophet and another. We read in the Quran: “The Messenger believes in what has been revealed to him, and so do the Believers. They all believe in Allah, and His Angels, and His Books, and His Messengers, declaring ‘we make no distinction between any of His Messengers’.” [Quran 2:285]. No distinction between the prophets of God means that not only are they all to be accepted and revered, but also that blasphemy towards one should be treated as blasphemy towards all. So it’s not a question of disrespect towards any one prophet of God. It’s a question of showing reverence to all prophets.

    2. There is no evidence whatsoever, in the Quran of capital or corporal punishment for blasphemy.

    3. No one could possibly have known the teachings of Islam better than the person through whom God sent this Message. There was a person in Madina called Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Sulool, known commonly as Raees-ul munafiqeen (leader of the hypocrites). He accepted Islam, but continued to harbour feelings of rancour towards Muhammad. He participated in several plots against the Prophet. On several occasions he had denigrated the Prophet in public. On the occasion of the Battle of Uhud, he withdrew his contingent of 300 men and deserted the Prophet at the eleventh hour, leaving only 700 men at the Prophet’s disposal, against a formidable force of 3000. He publicly proclaimed himself the most honourable among the men of Madina and declared the Prophet the most despicable. His animosity went on for years until he finally died. Muhammad, on receiving the news of death proceeded to join the funeral prayers. On the way, he was approached by Omar, who later rose to be the second caliph. Omar reminded the Prophet that God had revealed in the Quran that He would not forgive the hypocrites, even if the Prophet prayed for them seventy times. Muhammad replied, “Omar, by God I have prayed for this man more than seventy times”. Muhammad led the funeral prayers of Abdullah bin Ubayy, took off his own shirt and adorned Abdullah’s dead body with it. Abdullah bin Ubayy was buried wearing the Holy Prophet’s shirt. This was how Muhammad treated the blasphemous. There was nothing but forgiveness, mercy and compassion.

    4. We must never forget that while the Quran is the Revealed Word of God and remains unchanged till this day, the Hadith were compiled almost three centuries after the Prophet’s demise. However, authentic a hadith or its source may be, if it is in direct conflict with the Quran, we would have reason to believe that some details may well have been missed by the narrator. We should also appreciate the fact that there were some cases of people being penalized for militant rebellion against the state or for murder. These culprits were also known to have spoken blasphemously regarding the Prophet. But their penalty was on account of militant rebellion, not blasphemy.

  57. Tilsim

    Regarding the veneration of the understanding and reporting of the Hadith transmitters:

    Concluding part of the Prophet’s farewell sermon on Mount Arafat.

    “All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people”.

  58. Bin Ismail

    @Tilsim (November 15, 2010 at 11:48 pm)

    Undoubtedly, the narrators and compilers of the Hadith are held in very high esteem. The significance of the Hadith too, is unquestionable. The point I was trying to make was that since it is not possible that the Prophet could ever have said anything in conflict with the Quran, therefore it is not possible that while the Quran does not prescribe death-penalty for blasphemy, the Holy Prophet could have done so. In the case of a hadith that appears to contradict the Quran, it would only be right to assume that some relevant detail may, on account of human error, have been accidentally left out. My point was in response to instances where the death-penalty for blasphemy, inspite of being absent in the Quran, is authenticated by some through quoting from the Hadith.

  59. Tilsim

    @ Bin Ismail
    Thank you, I understand and sympathise with the point that you are making. My point is a different one. The statement of the Prophet (pbuh) that I refer to shows that he prayed that the last ones understand his words better than others who had heard him directly. This is a very significant statement. He concluded his sermon with it. I understand this to show that even as time passed, he thought that people could potentially understand the significance of his message better than those who heard him directly. This is a positive statement on human progress and understanding. It’s quite contrary to the views of those who think that the earliest Muslims had the best understanding of Islam and his message. It shows that he held out the possibility of reform for the better in how he we interpret his words compared to the earliest Muslims. It’s remarkable how this statement is not part of day to day Islamic teachings.

  60. Humanity

    @Bin And Tilsim

    Thank you. Your discussion is important as it shows that the oppressive laws being practiced in the name of Islam are actually against the teachings of Islam.

  61. Tilsim

    I also think we should reflect upon the fact that any reporting of an incident is not only dependent on the honesty but also the perceptions, observation power of the narrator and being human, it’s self evident that one’s understanding and perception is not immune to changing societal norms, particularly as time passes on. Whilst great care was taken in their compilation, it is reasonable to assume that Hadiths provide evidence at a different level to the Quran.

    I think reasonable Muslims have quietly understood this (although dogma equates the two).

  62. Bin Ismail

    @ Tilsim & Humanity

    Thank you. What I find most significant about the happenings related to Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Sulool, is the fact that this is an individual who excelled all in sustained blasphemy and yet he was forgiven by the Prophet, not only to the extent of granting pardon but also with a concomitant expression of compassion.

    Bin Ismail

  63. Tilsim

    It may be helpful to see what the Quran says on the subject of blasphemy.

    “When ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme.” [Qur’an 4:140]

    “And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: “to us our deeds and to you yours; peace be to you.” [Qur’an 28: 55]

    “Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant.” [Qur’an 7:199]

    “Have patience with what they say, and leaves them with noble (dignity).” [Qur’an 73:10]

    “And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say ‘Peace'” [Qur’an 25:63]

    “Allah is with those who restrain themselves.” [Qur’an 16: 128]

    “. . . But they uttered blasphemy . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them.” [Qur’an 9:47]

    No mention of capital punishment exercised by humans.

  64. Tilsim

    @ Caroline

    “So far, the word is not out here about the death sentence of this woman over blasphemy. ”

    I think your expectation is now happening. The Pope has asked for Asia bibi to be freed.

  65. readinglord

    November 13, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    (November 16, 2010 at 1:48 pm)

    Thank you for quoting Quran about punishment for blasphemy, But what about the Hadees referred to in my post of November 13, 2010 at 12:12 pm:

    “Sunnan Abu-Dawud
    Book 38, Number 4348:
    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas”

    which justifies lynching on account of alleged blasphemy and that too of a pregnant slave mother by a blind man.
    Is this Hadees not blasphemous

    “Sunnan Abu-Dawud
    Book 38, Number 4348:
    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

  66. readinglord

    Continued to my previous post which was erroneously closed.

    Is the Hadees referred to in my post of November 13, 2010 at 12:12 pm, i.e., “Sunnan Abu-Dawud
    Book 38, Number 4348,
    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas”, which tends to tarnish the image of the prophet as ‘Rehmatul Aalimeen’ (mercy for all the worlds) and is not supported by the Islamic injunctions either, is not blasphemous per se ?

  67. readinglord

    Sorry Again a mistake:

    In the last but one line of my just previous post please read ‘Quranic’ instead of ‘Islamic’.

  68. Mackers

    What kind of majority is required to repeal the blasphemy laws?