Outcry over death sentence for ‘blasphemy’ mother who offered farmhands water

A press release by AFP published in the Sydney Morning Herald forwarded by the Asian Human Rights Commission

A Pakistani court has sentenced to death a Christian mother of five for blasphemy, the first such conviction of a woman and sparking protests from rights groups.

Asia Bibi, 45, was sentenced on Monday by a local court in Nankana district in Pakistan’s central province Punjab, about 75km west of the country’s cultural capital of Lahore.

Pakistan has yet to execute anyone for blasphemy, but the case spotlights the Muslim country’s controversial laws on the subject which rights activists say encourages Islamist extremism in a nation wracked by Taliban attacks.

Ms Bibi’s case dates back to June 2009 when she was asked to fetch water while out working in the fields.

But a group of Muslim women labourers objected, saying that as a non-Muslim, she should not touch the water bowl.

A few days later the women went to a local cleric and alleged that Ms Bibi made made derogatory remarks about the Prophet Mohammed.

The cleric went to local police, who opened an investigation.

She was arrested in Ittanwalai village and prosecuted under Section 295 C of the Pakistan Penal Code, which carries the death penalty.

Sentencing her to hang, Judge Naveed Iqbal “totally ruled out” any chance that Ms Bibi was falsely implicated and said there were “no mitigating circumstances”, according to a copy of the verdict.

Ms Bibi’s husband Ashiq Masih, 51, said that he would appeal her death sentence, which needs to be upheld by the Lahore high court, the highest court in Punjab, before it can be carried out.

“The case is baseless and we will file an appeal,” he said.
The couple have two sons and three daughters.

Rights activists and minority pressure groups said it was the first time that a woman had been sentenced to hang in Pakistan for blasphemy, although a Muslim couple were jailed for life last year.

Human rights activists want the controversial legislation repealed, saying it is exploited for personal enmity and encourages Islamist extremism.

“The blasphemy law is absolutely obscene and it needs to be repealed in totality,” Human Rights Watch spokesman Ali Dayan Hasan said.

“It is primarily used against vulnerable groups that face social and political discrimination. Heading that category are religious minorities and heterodox Muslim sects,” he said.

About three per cent of Pakistan’s population of 167 million is estimated to be non-Muslim.
Last July, two Christian brothers accused of writing a blasphemous pamphlet critical of the Prophet Mohammed were shot dead outside a court in Punjab.

Pastor Rashid Emmanuel, 32, and his brother Sajjad, were killed as they left a court hearing in Faisalabad city, where hundreds of Muslim protesters had demanded they be sentenced to death.

The news are available at: http://www.smh.com.au/world/outcry-over-death-sentence-for-blasphemy-mother-who-offered-farmhands-water-20101112-17pri.html

# # #

About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984. The above statement has only been forwarded by the AHRC.

 

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39 Comments

Filed under Pakistan

39 responses to “Outcry over death sentence for ‘blasphemy’ mother who offered farmhands water

  1. amar

    When an ideology considers someone or some book as divine, uncriticizable, ever-glorifiable and final then it develops to become a fascism centered around this someone or this book.

    The muslims must realize this and act accordingly. Otherwise all solutions to such cases are just temporary or superficial or cosmetic.

    You muslims even today don’t seem to realize in what deep trouble your religion (with all its primitive tricks and manipulations) has brought you into. The internal working of a muslim society is such that the muslim cannot escape from its indoctrinations and intimidations. He then comes to the totally erroneous, anti-rational and crazy conclusion that more religiosity and resulting backwardness will save him.

  2. Humanity

    @amar

    Do you work? Does your employer pay you for stalking PTH?

    There are enough people in Pakistan to fight for this travesty. I am sure you can find a local cause worthy of your effort. Thank you for your concern, though!

  3. Tahera

    This news is a sad reflection on the degradation of societal fabric in Pakistan, as are recent cases of vigilante (in)justice. The Blasphemy Laws have a high potential for misuse and abuse, just like the Hudood Laws. Utmost care and precision is required to prosecute people on these charges, and unfortunately in the present circumstances where law and order are the biggest casualty, it would be highly optimistic to assume that enough was done.

  4. Kaalket

    Law is a law and Christian Dhimmi should have known better. How dare she insult the last Prophet of Allah!!. Lets see if the death sentence is carried out 6th Century style Zibah or Beheading. After living the life of Shirk , an Unpardonable ( Genocide , killing babies, booty, khum ,sexual slavery etc etc are pardonable acts) sin as per Book , she is heading to hell. One way out for her is to Convert like many weak minded Hanoods did in olden days as there is no compulsion in religion.

  5. Talha

    ^^^^^

    Charas pena chor de bache.

  6. Tilsim

    The RSS wallahs are on their usual mission like Jehovah’s witnesses. Broken records stuck in their groove adding their share to the cesspit of human discord.

  7. Tilsim

    The RSS wallahs are on their usual mission evangalising like Jehovah’s witnesses; broken records, stuck in their groove. Adding their share to the cesspit of human discord.

  8. Tilsim

    Mori Araj Suno

    Mori araj suno, dastagir pir
    O my Lord, pay heed to my appeal

    I am a faithful follower of my Creator

    O my Lord, pay heed to my appeal

    My true Lord, you had said

    “Go man, you are master of the world

    My bounties on earth are your treasure

    You are the viceroy of your Creator”

    After baiting me with these promises

    Countless years have passed by

    My Lord, did you ever enquire what transpired with your man

    What your man has suffered in this world?

    Somewhere, those in power and with the means intimidate, harass and terrorize

    Elsewhere, draft and bribery are rampant

    Ainj hadaan wich kalpay jaan meri
    My soul is shaken down to my bone

    Just like a bird flutters when caught in a trap

    You made a fine king indeed, my sweet lord

    All I have gotten are endless beatings

    Mainu shahi naeen chaidi rab meray
    I don’t want kingship, my Lord

    All I need is a morsel of respect

    I have no desire to live in palaces

    I just want a small nook to live my life

    Meri mannain tay tairian main mannan
    If you agree with me, I will agree with you

    I won’t decline anything no matter how unreasonable

    If you don’t look out for me God!

    Fayr main jawan teh rab koi hor loraan
    Then I should go and seek for myself another god

    Mori araj suno, dastagir pir
    O my lord, pay heed to my appeal

    – Nazar e Khusro by Faiz

  9. readinglord

    law or no law, Pakies, especially accused of blasphemy, have virtually only three options to day:

    1. to be sentenced to death by a court and hanged
    2. to be lynched
    3. to be blown up by a suicide bomber

    I know a case a lawyer of Attock City, named, Ain Fatmi, who was accused of blasphemy. He was sent to jail and was later on released on bail. Only a few days after release, he was murdered in his home in broad day light by un-known assailants. The law or law fraternity could not help a lawyer even and no rights group even took up his case.

    “For whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee”

  10. One question!
    Did any one ever executed through the verdict of court in Pakistan?….despite the anti blasphemy law?

  11. Islamic perspective of punishment of blasphemy.
    It is only for those who believe that there is no capital punishment against blasphemy in Islam.
    ================================

    Narrated Sa’d ibn AbuWaqqas: On the day of the conquest of Mecca, Abdullah ibn Sa’d ibn AbuSarh hid himself with Uthman ibn Affan. He brought him and made him stand before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), and said: Accept the allegiance of Abdullah, Apostle of Allah! He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him each time, but accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then turning to his companions, he said: Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him? They said: We did not know what you had in your heart, Apostle of Allah! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye? He said: It is not advisable for a Prophet to play deceptive tricks with the eyes.
    (Sunan abu daud -38 : 4346)

    ___________________________________

    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas: A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit………………………
    ……….Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
    (Sunan abu daud -38 : 4348)

    ___________________________________

    Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
    (Sunan abu daud -38 : 4349)

    ___________________________________

    Ka’ab bin Ashraf:
    Ka.b bin al Ashraf, was a Jewish leader and he was a very eloquent poet. who used to say blasphemous verse against prophet Mohammed (saw) and used his poetry against islam .

    Hadith:
    Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,”………………….Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
    (sahih bukhari- 59: 369)

    ___________________________________

    Abdullah ibn Khatal:

    Abdullah ibn Khatal had these two slave girls who used to sing against the Messenger of Allah
    (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), they would hold concerts in Makah singing against
    the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

    Hadith:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah’s Apostle entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, “ibn khatal is holding the covering of the Ka’ba (taking refuge in the Ka’ba).” The Prophet said, “Kill him.”
    (Sahih Bukhari Book #29, Hadith #72)

    __________________________________
    OPINION OF MOST EMINENT SCHOLARS OF ISLAM:

    Ibn Taymiyah says,

    “Whoever curses the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) -a Muslim or a non Muslim- then he must be killed!”
    And he says

    “and this is the opinion of the general body of scholar”.

    _________________________________

    Ibn Munzir says, “

    “It is the consensus of our scholars that the one who curses the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) should be executed!.
    And this is the opinion of Malik, alLaith, Ahmed, Ishaq, Shafi.i and Numan Abu Hanifah.

    _________________________________

    The opinion of Abu Hanifa is that the

    “Muslim speaking against the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) should be executed and if it is a non-Muslim who doesn.t have a contract he should also be executed.”
    __________________________________

    Imam Malik said, .

    “If someone says that the button of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is dirty, then he should be executed!.Even if it is as small as saying that, then this person should be executed
    __________________________________

    Qadi I.yad says .

    “And we don.t know any different opinion, this is a consensus and we don.t know any different opinion”
    ___________________________________

    Ibn Ataab says that,

    “The Book, Quran and Sunnah, imply that who ever seeks to harm the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or belittle him should be killed even if it is a very small thing!.
    ___________________________________

  12. YLH

    Fundamentalist…

    Did the Holy Prophet (PBUH) not forgive Hinda who was the worst blasphemer of them all?

  13. amar

    Humanity writes:

    “Do you work? Does your employer pay you for stalking PTH?
    There are enough people in Pakistan to fight for this travesty. I am sure you can find a local cause worthy of your effort. Thank you for your concern, though!”

    I am self-employed. Enough people in Pakistan to fight this? How many? 3? Kayani and Choudhary and may be Asma?

    In today’s world all causes are local now. If 10 pak muslims can come from Karachi to Mumbai (1200km) and kill 166 human beings in the name of the arab god in order to enter his arabic heaven – everything is now related and interconnected.

  14. Salman Arshad

    @YLH

    The Prophet could himself forgive for blasphemy against him, but how can we forgive people on his behalf ?

    Remember that even God doesn’t forgive people on other people’s behalf ..

  15. Salman Arshad

    Anyway here’s the Ultimate Collection of Blasphemy Hadiths, that should also add to the knowledge of Fundamentalist and anyone interested in these matters:

    www dot ahlehadith dot com/mazameendetailcfc0.php?mid=184&cid=38

    The above link also gives insight into documented Islam vs. the peaceful Islam that is found only in comments sections on liberal blogs.

  16. @YLH!

    Indeed! not only Prophet Mohammad (saw) forgave the Hinda for killing His(saw) beloved uncle but also the murderer of His(saw) daughter.
    But none of both committed blasphemy.

  17. Tilsim

    @ Salman Arshad

    The observations that y0u point to are valid ones. However it should also be said that the ahle hadith (who’s teachings that you refer to above in the weblink) are Wahabis, so represent a particular view of Islam which many Muslims have serious problems with because of their approach which picks out and emphasises a literalist interpretation of law, ritual and tradition at the expense of morality, generosity, tolerance and forebearance. It is a system of belief that withers away reason and caution. The inherently unjust society that their approach creates is inimial to the very concept of justice which is tied to rights and morality in Islam. I know that many Pakistani Muslims learn their religion as a ritualist and literalist thing and it has no transformative impact on their inner being other than making them zealots and bigots. The Prophet’s life was varied, it was also time bound and part of a tribal culture. The rulings he gave were not explained like a Judge can do in a modern justice system. Even if some of these narrations are true one has to bear the context in mind which we can only partly understand. The principles he espoused however in a broad sense is what appeals. They are the reasons that Islam has any relevance. If Muslims chose to refuse to engage their brains and conscience alongside his teachings then the results are for all to see, as we witness in Pakistan and the broader Islamic world.

  18. Prasad

    //If Muslims chose to refuse to engage their brains and conscience alongside his teachings then the results are for all to see, as we witness in Pakistan and the broader Islamic world.//

    The question is why do you all need this gentleman’s support for everything in life. He was like a Manu on our side. We royally ignore Manu these days since what Manu wrote made sense 3000 years back not now.

    I fail to understand why your society doesnot accept economy as main driver of any country and not religion!!

    Unfortunately religion of peace is anything but peace and religion of chaos ( read hinduism) is chaotic for sure but seriously at peace with itself

  19. Prasad

    amar//If 10 pak muslims can come from Karachi to Mumbai (1200km) and kill 166 human beings in the name of the arab god in order to enter his arabic heaven//

    I empathize with his angst . I am not sure what made these beasts travel all the way and maul MOSTLY UNKNOWN PEOPLE IN AN ALIEN COUNTRY.

    Was it the mard-e-mommin syndrome? was it 1971? or was it the Mir Baqi Syndrome?

  20. tilsim1

    @ Prasad

    “The question is why do you all need this gentleman’s support for everything in life.”

    Well personally speaking I don’t need to look at everything that the Prophet (pbuh) did in his life to take guidance for every question that I face. I don’t subscribe to the thinking that considers an appropriate stance. However the wisdom, virtue and guidance of sages, prophets, scientists, philosophers, poets helps me and provides meaning to my life. Manu was ‘imbued with great wisdom and devoted to virtue’. Are those things no longer relevant to mankind?

    Material pursuit is certainly important for fulfilling our needs and improving our futures. However for it’s own sake, it leaves me feeling like I am not fulfilling my human potential.

  21. Prasad

    //Manu was ‘imbued with great wisdom and devoted to virtue’. Are those things no longer relevant to mankind?//

    I appreciate this. However whatever Manu wrote is no more ‘Law’ today. The problem is with ancient ‘intelligent’ knowledge being treated as Law by idiots. and if idiots are a majority, then God only can save that region!!

    Manusmriti had /has hundreds of dos and donts. I/ we dont care a damn.

  22. tilsim1

    I don’t know if idiots are a majority but certainly a very misguided, unethical and highly motivated coalition is exercising an overarching and influential influence over the minds and well being of the majority. The laws and their implementation are a reflection of the ideology of this coalition and the prevailing culture of society – which is exploitative, abusive, illiterate and intolerant.

  23. Prasad

    //a very misguided, unethical and highly motivated coalition is exercising an overarching and influential influence over the minds and well being of the majority/

    Madam: I am not sure if this is the case. Society is encouraging true ‘islamic’ culture. If it wasnt that, you wouldnt have so much blatant bombings on a daily basis

    Just to illustrate Punjab during late 1980’s, it was people and not the state that rid Punjab of terrorists….KPS Gill was a great officer no doubt but it was Beant Singh and his people that lent all the support…… You have a classic example…that seemed impossible became absolutely normalised in a matter of few years!! howzzat

  24. amar

    to prasad

    It is the Mohammad-bin-Kasim syndrome and inspiration. This M-bin-Kasim is the real founder of today’s Pakistan. Poor Jinnah is relegated to a place way down (something which he resented deeply under the hindu bania M K Gandhi). Many Pakistanis are brought up literally worshipping M-bin-Kasim, who was mere 19 year old when he attacked Sindh. So you can imagine what 19 year olds in Pakistan want to do (terrorist Ajmal Kasab in Mumbai is 20 years old).

    An ideology that regards someone or something or some book as uncriticizable become a fascism centered around this someone or something or book. Islam has reached that stage long ago. No more reverse gear possible. In Pakistan – and not onyl there but in the whole islamic world – the situation is now beyond critical. And their hypocrisy makes any remedy impossible.

  25. Salman Arshad

    @ Tilsim:

    … the ahle hadith … The inherently unjust society that their approach creates …

    I think this is more of a judgment, that might not be true about how the ahle hadith feel about their beliefs themselves. Do they really believe that they are inherently unjust, or do they believe that they are the ones that are most close to what Islam’s standard of idea justice is ?

    My idea is that they feel to be on the right path, just like you feel about yourself. Just like I feel about myself. Just like anyone else.

    The Prophet’s life was varied, it was also time bound and part of a tribal culture.

    This might not be very convincing to the ahle hadith.. I am making a guess here because its not convincing for me too .. and I actually support the ahle hadith’s point of view .. The same Prophet, in the same tribal culture, refrained from killing his blasphemers in the early days of his mission, but resorted to killing them once in power. The only problem with this is that it undermines his honesty and integrity in his character, but which the ahle hadith have no problem in embracing, which is something we should accept, if we can’t disprove the actual narrations.

    The real question is, in the light of this information, can we really claim that Islam calls for holding your integrity high in the matter of blasphemy ??
    What if Islam really asks you to hold your integrity ONLY in particular matters, and not in blasphemy, like the Prophet himself demonstrated ??

    This pretty much brings down any lofty moral claims of Islam, but gives it a power of its own, and this power is what we see today. This is the power of integrity of documented history. Documented history is far more convincing to the common man.

    The principles he espoused however in a broad sense is what appeals. They are the reasons that Islam has any relevance.

    I don’t disagree with that totally. Peaceful teachings of Islam have had more relevance than the Violent teachings of Islam, which became relevant only in certain times in Islam’s history, like whenever stultifying questioning and open-mindedness was theologically required to keep Islam itself alive.

    But the peaceful teachings of Islam have now expired their value in modern times. At least I haven’t come across any historical narration where The Mullah and his bigotry lost against some liberal opposition. This has never happened.

    Its only that bigotry itself doesn’t have the power to sustain itself, that it gradually loses its hold, during which “peaceful Islam” used to get some time to breathe.

    Islam as an organized religion has been kept alive ONLY due its bigoted members. If left to the liberals, Islam would have withered away right after the Prophet’s death!

  26. @Salman Arshad

    Islam as an organized religion has been kept alive ONLY due its bigoted members.

    Thank you for your perceptive statement. A small quibble, however.

    Isn’t that generally true of all religions? However much common people, even uncommon people may be attracted by the principles of a religion, by the view of divinity that it offers, by an explanation of how divinity comes into daily life, only a handful can take any interest in the arcane practices that constitute the formal part of any religion.

    It is that committed and undeviating handful that enforces compliance; they define what is the right practice, and invoke divine sanction for their definitions, they exclude what they disapprove, and again invoke divine sanction, they decide who are acceptable as worshippers of divinity according to the practical details that they themselves have defined, or claim have been provided by divine revelation, and they decide who are not acceptable to the community and should be expelled, or sequestered, or killed.

    Different religions differ in detail in this regard; one suggests that the unwelcome be killed, another keeps them apart in squalor and poverty and denies them human rights. The core lies in the prescription of (religious) right and wrong proclaimed by your bigots under the so-called tenets of that religion. Whichever it is.

  27. tilsim1

    “But the peaceful teachings of Islam have now expired their value in modern times. ”

    Really (eyebrows raised!).

  28. tilsim1

    Times do change. Muslims don’t accept slavery anymore. Reform can and does occur. The Prophet (pbuh) operated in the environment he was under. We cannot judge him by today’s standards as these standards are different and will change again. The veneration of what people saw and heard (which is according to their perception and understanding) is part of the problem. This is specially so given that the accepted Hadiths vary between Sunni and Shia and were recorded after so much time had passed.

    It is back to basics on vision and principles that matters for those who don’t believe in literalism but the spiritual and moral aspects of his overall legacy.

  29. amar

    Salman wrote:
    “Islam as an organized religion has been kept alive ONLY due its bigoted members. If left to the liberals, Islam would have withered away right after the Prophet’s death!”

    Vajra asks:
    “Isn’t that generally true of all religions?”

    One must differentiate and say “not to the same extent in all”.

    In case of islam that has been the case very blatantly and that too over 1400 years – as pointed out by a born-muslim (Salman Arshad) himself.

    Islam has this absolutism-finalism and this “we are the finalists and gararnteed to be the final winners” arrogance. Since this arrogance has no basis in reality ( in fact islam has turned out to be the worst and the worst-loser among the three monotheistic totalitarian-genocidal ideologies), hence this mullah-bigotry without which islam will find it impossible to survive.

    I – a non-muslim – too had written sometime ago that islam will collapse without its fascism, fear-mongering, arrogant claims and briberies, but since I am a non-muslim I was much reviled and insulted by all. Now we have a born-muslim saying almost the same thing.

    This explains also why sufis are persecuted by muslims only and by no one else. Salman is right.

  30. amar

    tilsim writes:
    “We cannot judge him by today’s standards as these standards are different and will change again.”

    We must. An ideology that has the arrogance to claim that it is the final revelation of the one and only god must be judged by criteria that are time-independent. So too the top agent of this ideology. Hence judging islam and M. by the standards of the 21st century is a must. If we make a concession here then islam loses its right to be a religion/ideology of or relevant to the 21st century.

  31. Salman Arshad

    @ Tilsim:

    Times do change. Muslims don’t accept slavery anymore. Reform can and does occur.

    I am not sure what exactly you meant by reform.
    Muslims still accept that Islam allows slavery. They just don’t know how to own a slave now that no one is selling one. How is this reform in Islam or in Muslims? When have Muslims denounced slavery ever in their history on the lines of a modern concept of human dignity ?

    The blasphemy problem requires a reform in Islam itself, which is not possible in the same way.

    The issue of slavery supports my opinion about the expiry of the “peaceful” teachings of Islam. Considering slavery, Islam asks one to be kind to your slaves. Today’s non-Islamic morals denounce slavery to the extent of being anti-human: one cannot be a slave and retain human dignity at the same time. Islam held an idea of dignified slaves, which is an oxymoron now. The Islamic teachings have expired ! There is no way you can even reconcile today’s view of human freedom in any context of “Islamic principles”. I am of course open to hear a counter argument.

    Blasphemy is another issue that cannot be reconciled. Today we do not think highly of a person if he is all kind and friendly when not in power but later starts sanctioning murder of people in opposition to him even on mere verbal assault. But as a Muslim it is impossible to hold such a “modern” opinion without denying the blasphemy supporting hadiths.

  32. Tilsim

    @ Salman

    As you of course will understand, we are not going to have reform through a grand fatwa that is binding on 1 billion muslims. Such things don’t exist are meaningless.

    By reform I mean, changes in the way Muslims think of, accept and practice their religion as times change. What I find totally unacceptable is the Wahabi or Ahle Hadith way which is about turning the clock back to a mythical nirvana period and implementing laws that do not reflect the current attitudes of society.

    Islam may have permitted slavery at the time of the Prophet but the practice of overwhelming Muslims across the world is to oppose it’s practice and not practice it themselves. The same applies to multiple wives – the practice is dying out. In the society that I move in, it is frowned upon. I accept that other muslims may have a different view but it’s definitely a trend that reflects changing practice.

  33. Kaalket

    Tilsim
    Then these overwhelming Muslims are going against the teachings of Prophet Muhamad and still pretending to be Muslims in land/s won by Islam. Are they doing out of Jahailiya or under the influence of Kuffar values? In both cases they are wazibul punishment by honest Muslims as teachings of Islam are the final declaration of Allah and obligatory for humanity till end of time. If Sunna allows Slavery of all sorts then how can it be repungant for the Belivers.

  34. Tilsim

    @ Kaalket

    You read Ayman Al Zawahiri and think it is Islam. It’s the latest stick you have to show your hatred towards Muslims.

  35. I find to my bemusement that a comment about the universal dependence of all organised religion has been used to beat up Muslims and Islam. It was said

    One must differentiate and say “not to the same extent in all”.

    In case of islam that has been the case very blatantly and that too over 1400 years – as pointed out by a born-muslim (Salman Arshad) himself.

    Billions of blue, blistering barnacles! And what happened to Jewish and Christian beliefs which are identical, and which have been around making things difficult for mankind for much longer periods than 1,400 years?

    There is nothing wrong with Salman Arshad’s comments, which were made in the general direction of Islam. His deprecation of these aspects of organised religion within Islam in no way amounts to a point of view that Islam is peculiarly or uniquely afflicted.

    Islam has this absolutism-finalism and this “we are the finalists and gararnteed to be the final winners” arrogance. Since this arrogance has no basis in reality ( in fact islam has turned out to be the worst and the worst-loser among the three monotheistic totalitarian-genocidal ideologies), hence this mullah-bigotry without which islam will find it impossible to survive.

    Funny how Christianity and Judaism, with identical beliefs of a select people before God, chosen out of all of mankind for revelation of the word of God and for consequent salvation if and only if they followed the word of God, are not considered in the same light.

    It would be interesting to learn how the ratings were done, and how it was established with such finality that islam has turned out to be the worst and the worst-loser among the three monotheistic totalitarian-genocidal ideologies. It would also be interesting to learn how other religions, other faith-systems are so easily and glibly excluded from the death-grip of the fanatics within those systems.

    I – a non-muslim – too had written sometime ago that islam will collapse without its fascism, fear-mongering, arrogant claims and briberies, but since I am a non-muslim I was much reviled and insulted by all. Now we have a born-muslim saying almost the same thing.

    Presumably both had the living example of the withering away of certain branches of another religion in front of them as they wrote this. It is worth pointing out that it is precisely these branches of a major Abrahamic religion that have moved furthest from fascism, fear-mongering, arrogant claims and briberies.

    It is difficult not to point out that the universal contempt that was expressed, either in responses or by non-response, was due to the singularly one-sided views expressed by the correspondent, not by his characterisation of religion in general as being held up by fear and despotism by a few believers.

    This explains also why sufis are persecuted by muslims only and by no one else. Salman is right.

    Stuff and nonsense.

    The persecution of Sufis is an example of a heterodox practice under assault by the orthodox; nothing less, nothing more. It is by no means unique to Islam. There is similar hatred and condemnation of otherwise very committed Christians who practise Yoga or certain forms of meditation.

    It would have been far more honest to acknowledge that the malignant habits that have been linked to Islam again and again are in fact malignant habits of an impoverished and debased society, kept impoverished and debased by the abdication of the sections that should have taken the lead in their uplift and the eradication of superstition and mental backwardness. Much like the malignant mob in Kandhamal which burnt alive a Christian missionary and his infant sons, and due to a similar impoverishment and debasement, caused by a similar abdication of responsibility.

    But then, it was the dishonesty in the first place which occasioned the contempt. In hindsight, the reviling and insults were good things.

  36. Tilsim

    @ Salman Arshad

    “At least I haven’t come across any historical narration where The Mullah and his bigotry lost against some liberal opposition. This has never happened.”

    The abolition of slavery is an example (not that there are many more things to change to bring about the importance of human dignity). I don’t think slavery is legal in any Muslim majority country any more. During earlier times, Akbar, the Fatimid calphs and the Ottomans banned either by immediate decree or in gradual stages.

    However, I bet that salafists will argue that this is against Islam and the Mullahs will be their allies. Then, those who oppose Muslims will say, look this is what Muslims believe in. This is their pure religion. This argument is as suspect as those who say that Hinduism holds nothing for a modern Hindu or modernity because suttee or cast system is/was part of some Hindus beliefs and practice. Or those who say that the past Christian practice of burning heretics at the stake is a reflection of modern christianity or it’s lack of utility.

    “There is no way you can even reconcile today’s view of human freedom in any context of “Islamic principles”.”

    It depends on what a Muslims’ stance is. If a Muslim places tradition, culture and doctrine (which are not settled matters) above actions and results that ensure the dignity of man, his freedom of conscience, his rights versus the rights of others (in the highest moral framework), then under my belief system (and I believe many other Muslims) he is not being faithful to the positive change in society that Islam sought to bring . Such a stance is unjust and against the spirit of generosity that run through Islamic teachings.

    I believe that because their is so much heterogeneity in belief, the above principles are best served through a secular legal order. I believe that was also what Jinnah hoped for in Pakistan.

  37. amarq

    Awaiting how long?

  38. Tilsim

    erratum…”(not that there are many more things to change to bring about the importance of human dignity).

    should read:

    (there are also many more things to change to bring about human dignity). “

  39. no-communal

    I hate all these things.