In The Name Of National Sovereignty

 By Raza Habib Raja

One of the most hyped up slogans on the media and the rightwing nationalist circles is of “National Sovereignty”. This slogan is so powerful that Pakistani leadership particularly that of PPP is always on the defensive. According to this “National Sovereignty” school of thought, Pakistan has sold its soul to the foreign powers due to personal greed of the ruler class and has compromised the autonomy by facilitating the drone attacks.

Currently the drone attacks are in full swing and almost daily we hear news regarding militants being killed. At the same time and not surprisingly these attacks, despite killing militants are continuously being cited as a “proof” of the great treachery. But then in the past, everything ranging from Nazam-i-Adl in Swat to Military action against Militants in tribal areas has been bracketed under the same category.

More than anything else, I find the whole issue of National Sovereignty, particularly the way it is interpreted and projected in the media as grossly irrational. It is in fact a manifestation of the worst kind of irrational patriotism. I would call it irrational patriotism because it is based on instincts and does not conform to rational self interest.

One has to just skim through recent past to actually assess how irrational the whole notion of this brand of national sovereignty is. Before the current wave of drone attacks which have evoked these cries of national sovereignty, we had the issue of military action in Swat and also the in the tribal areas. Swat is an interesting case because before the action began militants had been getting stronger, burning schools and despite increasing evidence that they were using violence to get their demands accepted by the government, the media and a large portion of urban middleclass was vehemently against any action because USA at that time was also urging Pakistan.

The insistence from USA became a propaganda weapon in the hands of the rightwing religious parties and ultranationalist conservative media and they were successfully able to portray any possible action from Pakistan military as being US instigated and hence a “covert”  violation of sovereignty. The delay allowed militants to get complete foothold in the valley and gave them complete leverage to actually blackmail Government. The buildup to the eventual military action was a strange spectacle as the Government was in effect made impotent to launch a timely military action against the militants because it found itself on a very weak political wicket. Eventually the media woke out of its trance only after Sufi Mohammed gave a live speech in which he threatened to attack Islamabad. A lot of bloodshed would have been avoided had we used a little sense before. Just because US was insisting on action, we were adamant and consequently ended up paying a far heavier price.

Keeping in view this background, any action of conducted directly by US force such as drone attacks is bound to create even stronger criticism by media and its prime target market. I find it amazing that drone attacks actually draw far more condemnation than Taliban suicide bombings which until recently were just construed as a grand conspiracy of India, Israel and US nexus. It is only when the evidence has become too blatant to be dismissed as merely a grand conspiracy that the people have started to display symptoms of the next level of denial: apologetic defense by virtue of which everything is merely a reaction to US atrocities.

Come to think of it, the drone attacks though conducted by US forces are generally more accurate and end up killing some of the militants. The collateral damage is relatively less and yet they evoke huge condemnation from the ultranationalist circles. The sole reason is that US is doing it and even if it actually benefits Pakistan, it is immaterial. Attacks are negatively publicized as on the “people” of Pakistan without giving much critical thought to the fact that these may actually be benefiting the local populace under the militant hegemony and for that matter Pakistan itself through elimination of such elements. The attacks are targeted against those monsters who are guilty of gross crimes against humanity and yet we are just fixated with loss of so called sovereignty.

Let’s not forget that the tribal belt, where the drone attacks are taking place have never been completely under the Government’s control in the first place. The sovereignty does not even fully apply as the writ is not completely there and in fact ever been there. For me it is not a matter of “national sovereignty” but of rational national self interest. If viewed from the later perspective, the drone attacks target militants without engaging our military whose usage would have been far more costly, both in terms of human loss as well as from political ramifications.

On purely technical terms, perhaps drone attacks may be termed as violation of sovereignty though not the kind which is really injurious to Pakistan’s interests. Yes the attacks have their costs and to deny them would tantamount to intellectual dishonesty.  But at the same time the benefits are greater in terms of elimination of militants in an efficient way with lesser loss of lives and with far less political backlash.

What we forget is that drone attacks, or so called violation of sovereignty, would not have been needed had we shown some political will to tackle the issue of militancy ourselves. We tried peace deals several times but always ended up appeasing militants. In fact militants broke such deals several times thus making a mockery of our “diplomacy” and negotiations. We conducted belated army action in tribal areas but that too was severely criticized by our media and media savvy urban middleclass and touted as “shameless” usage of our own army against our own people. The experience has shown that militants, by and large, represent nihilistic irrational philosophy, and cannot be trusted. Therefore military action unfortunately becomes the only option as appeasement has failed miserably in the past. And if we are so reluctant to use our own military against our “own” people than what is wrong with drone attacks?

The stance becomes even more illogical when seen in the context of our blames on US for being the perpetuator of the “original sin” of nurturing Jihadists in 1980s for the purpose of defeating Soviet Union. Keeping that historical perspective in mind, it would be only fair to ACTUALLY expect US to help clean up the mess they helped create in those times. It is also in this backdrop that drone attacks need to be assessed rather than on emotional and irrational grounds.

It is said the man is a rational being. However, we continuously prove ourselves as contrary to being one. The national mindset has become hypersensitive to politically hollow sloganeering and unfortunately continues to be nurtured in that direction by our media. This irrational mindset has developed a reciprocal relationship with the media- print as well as electronic- and both reinforce each other thus making sure that we spiral downwards into a state of complete intellectual bankruptcy.

Obviously this downward spiral is not merely intellectual as it is also accompanied by lack of public interest and participation in other and far more important issues such as education, law and order, poverty, healthcare and political reforms related to issues like provincial autonomy. Instead of debating on these issues and ensuring that the respective central and provincial governments are made accountable, the entire media thrust and the public attention is on these hyped up issues.

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75 Comments

Filed under Pakistan, Taliban, Terrorism, USA, violence, War On Terror

75 responses to “In The Name Of National Sovereignty

  1. Ali Abbas

    @Raza,

    Brave article. Good luck with the ghairat brigade.

  2. Raza Raja

    @ Ali

    Thanks brother we all need that luck!!

  3. Pakistan ceased to be a sovereign nation during the mid-fifties because of the rabid corruption and the marathon rot at the top.
    We live in a global village, and we are its begging bowls , misanthropes and fakirs.
    We believe in rhetoric, not Realty.
    Realty is we are in a mess.
    (And I am not to be blamed for it!)

  4. Amaar

    I agree that as long as the drone attacks do not risk civilians then they are justified. For far too long Pakistani government has abandoned the ‘illaqa-ghair’ to thugs and bandits such as these people. If the US is cleaning up our mess so be it!

  5. Ahsan

    Predator Drone is a fantastic technology and another evidence of the huge depth human mind has.

    Having said that these machines are not producing the required results. Missiles have been falling in the region for now almost 4 years but US-led NATO forces becoming more and more vulnerable day by day. why?
    Because the collateral damage however minimum it may be, is providing them recruits. This is the story on both sides of the Durand line.
    If a father who has absolutely nothing to do with Taliban or US loses his sons or vice versa, what should he do? He would definitely seek revenge. I have not visited this region but if somebody does belong to this region and tells me that everyone who is perishing is a militant so that to me would imply only two things either there are no women and children there and if there are then sorry they are also militants and they have to die. Their lives have no value. It is this part of a war which is so irrational and stupid. Alas! today wars just cannot differentiate between who is a fighter and who is not.
    What a coincidence that every time a missile hit a house it turned out to be a hideout where everybody even women and children are militants!
    I think they should nuke the whole tribal belt!
    No house no human no militants!

    Now I know I would be dubbed as ‘pro-taliban’ and ‘reactionary fanatic’ because I won’t be allowed dissent when it comes to collateral damage in a war. Taliban commit brutalities, massacres and bloodshed, it just cannot be justified but can a collateral damage in war is?

    All people in the war zone are enemies so they should be killed. Yes very simple and straightforward logic no complexities.

  6. Tilsim

    Raza, great article. The laughable thing is the TV channels solely focus on the loss of sovereignty when it comes to the US/IMF etc. However the TV anchors generally ignore other aspects of sovereignty.

    Firstly, sovereignty is not only the legal right to exercise control over one’s subjects (de jure sovereignty), it is also whether such control actually exists (de facto sovereignty). The latter implies two things: firstly does the government have the will and the means to make it’s subjects obey and secondly do the people have the habit of obeying the government.

    I think we can easily come up with a long list of examples how our national sovereignty is violated daily by Pakistanis and by our own government.

    Here are a few:

    – every day that as a citizen, we break a law, no matter how big or small, we are violating our nation’s sovereignty. In Pakistan, there is next to no respect for obeying the law.

    – if the government is violating the sovereignty with foreign governments by turfing out a citizen without due process of law (such as Musharraf did with Nawaz Sharif) then it is violating the nation’s sovereignty.

    – If the government is taking extra-legal steps such as the internment of it’s citizens by security agencies then it’s violating the nation’s sovereignty.

    – If the government has lost it’s ability to control it’s finances because of external debts, it has lost the nation’s sovereignty.

    – If the constitution is violated by a military takeover, they have negated the nation’s sovereignty.

    – If the security apparatus funds and supports militant outfits in an illegal and covert manner, it’s a violation of the nation’s sovereignty.

    – If the government cannot protect it’s citizens, collect tax or enforce it’s laws, where is the sovereignty?

    Now let’s sit back and think. Did our nation not start losing it’s sovereignty long long ago? Don’t we damage it’s sovereignty every day through thumbing up our noses at the law and the state?

    Why are the TV anchors just equating the US drone attacks to a violation of sovereignty? It’s because they don’t know or don’t care to inform their audiences about what being a sovereign nation is really about.

  7. poke

    Pakistan or an individual loose their sovereignity the day they accepy arabic slavery called islam.
    Just pluck islam out of soul and feel the love for humanity everyone is moving towards except you retrogressive muslims inhabiting 51+ countries.

    u lost it many centuries ago

  8. Aliarqam

    @Ahsan
    No we will not call you a pro Taliban as it will be better if he has some ideological linkage with them, we will call you the one “lost in Tv transmission”, as your collateral damage theory has no grounds, whether you will be in some Urban centre in Pakistan or abroad, and absolutely know nothing about the areas called FATA. Check out your sources or let me provide some sources from the area.

  9. Feroz Khan

    Raza, this is a very good article which raises really salient points.

    First of all, when we discuss national sovereignity and our lack of response to the creeping militant threat, the delay was caused by our fragmented and often at odds perspective on the nature of the threat itself. All military action has a political purpose, which defines the use, the manner and the duration of armed force.

    Civilian elected governments are handicapped by the fact that our military response is directed by the military itself based on its own political interests. Civilians do not control the application of military power in Pakistan and they cannot decide its use.

    A military force or power used without an explictly defined and underlying political objective is destined for failure and so is a military policy that which is based on confused political aims.

    The same reason, why the United States use of the drone technology is so effective and yet the Americans are losing ground in Afghanistan. The reason being that the Americans do not know what they want in Afghanistan. Killing the Afghans and for that matter us killing the Taliban is useless unless we figure out the reason why we are killing them instead of simply killing them for a lack of a viable alternative!

    A successful military application of force has to be tailored to a political policy goal for whose attainment military force is being used. As long as no such policy exists, then the military action becomes open-ended and it loses it objectivity, but even more importantly; such a military action loses popular domestic support.

    In the case of Pakistan and why your article is insightful is that the Pakistani military has followed its own strategic assumptions and had forced the politics to support a military goal. Therefore, our concept of national sovereignty was based on a security paradigm, which reflected a narrow institutional interest instead of representing a wider national interest.

    For too long our national sovereignty was defined by the military and today, we are simply paying the price of that folly.

    Please accept my apologia pro forma for this long reply.

    ciao

  10. @Raza
    Splendid effort…
    National sovereignty, National Interest, National pride and honour and so on with all the terms affixed with the term “National” are based on a narrative, having roots in religio nationalistic aspirations.
    Our National sovereignty is violated more by inside demons who are challenging the state with their control of our territories and free run in our cities.
    Let us assume Drones are killing innocent peoples, but what about the Jets from our own forces who are used in the same territories having more people killed and fear of less accuracy in aiming the targets.

  11. Raza Raja

    @ Tilsim,

    yes you are very right about the concept of actual soverignity. This is simply overlooked in our zeal of showing anti US reaction. You have actually improved the article and made several points which should have been in the article…great additions particularly with respect to clarifying what actually soverignity is

    @ Feroz Khan

    Sir brilliant post and I consider myself lucky to lure you into PTH!!!!You already have a fan following here..and although both of us continue to love chowk also but we have to admit that quality of debate and civility of debate is better at PTH.

    @Aliarqam

    Ali thanks a lot of your support here and on your own wonderful blog. You are spot on when you say that our loss of writ over the militants is actually the true loss of soverignity

  12. Thomas

    WOW!!!!!!!!!!! It looks like it’s O.K. with you educated English speaking and writing citizens of Pakistan to allow the invaders of Afghanistan to kill your fellow citizens with no trial and their women and children too.

    You should think about where this will eventually lead! Do you the privileged really want to side with the invaders against your own ordinary citizens and their families?? Sounds like cultural suicide to me… But you are the Western educated [indoctrinated??] leaders. Don’t you think finding some mutual accommodation with your fellow citizenswould be better than condoning their slaughter by foreign forces?? Suppose those you are now killing with drones began using Chinese drones on you the elite? Would the death of your women and children be O.K.?

    NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Democracy Now reported today that Blackwater was hired for Benazir’s security before her assassination…!!!

  13. Raza Raja

    @Thomas

    Please read the article and then comment!!
    Answer to your queries is inside it.

  14. Ali Abbas

    The comments by Tilsim, Feroz and Ali Arqam are some of the most insightful that I have come across on this subject and have been facilitated by Raza’s analysis.

    I have come across some articles by “constitutional/legal” experts that are really vaccuous on this topic and are thinly vieled attempts to defend the Taliban.

  15. Ahsan

    @aliarqam

    Mister I admit that I am an urbanite and only depends on T.V., books and cyberspace. My point is that I feel very irritated when I hear that all who died in the attack were militants. I would be very grateful to you if you clear me because I am severely puzzled by media reports.

  16. Raza Raja

    @ ali abbas

    What I find beyond belief is that drone attack invite far more condemnation than attacks by Taliban monsters. I AM DUMBFOUNDED.

    And completely bewildered

  17. Tilsim

    @ Ahsan

    You are right to be concerned about the death of any single innocent life. It feels unjust and cruel. It cannot be easily justified. You suspect probably correctly that the media reports don’t to refer to the death of innocents on purpose because most of us are irritated by the death of innocents.

    However, I would ask you to juxtapose that thought with the greater injustice that would result by not fighting against those who wish to impose their perverted vision of Islam of suicide bombings, blowing up schools, murder, arbitrary justice and cruelty on the rest of us by force.

    If the Taliban are left alone because we fear the recruiting power resulting from the death of innocents, we will be accessories to a Taliban takeover. Is that something that should be accepted or resisted by all our will.

    In the end unfortunately this sort of death and destruction cannot be avoided in a war. The only small redress to the intense pain of the victims of drone attacks is that casualties must be minimised and victims compensated. We have to ask forgiveness for the transgressions. For a humane person, whether he is religious or not, it is an intense moral dilemma that is generated.

  18. Tilsim

    @ Ali Abbas

    Thanks for your kind words.

    @ Feroz Khan

    “The reason being that the Americans do not know what they want in Afghanistan.”

    I appreciate your posts but was puzzled by this statement. I don’t want to distract the thread so I won’t advance my thoughts. Perhaps it’s the topic for an article on PTH.

  19. Feroz Khan

    @ Tilsim

    The Americans are confused, because they have no policy in Afghanistan. Killing the enemy should not be considered as a policy. A credible policy should be able to secure the political reasons for which the United States is fighting the war inside Afghanistan once the fighting ends.

    The Americans are confused because they want to end the fighting, but know that once the fighting ends and they leave, all their political interests, gained in the last nine years fighting in Afghanistan will be lost. Politically speaking, if they stay; they stand a chance of losing militarily and therefore, politically and if they leave; they risk losing politically in Afghanistan.

    They are confused, because they cannot make up their minds as to what they want and how to do it in Afghanistan. One does not win wars by announcing when one will leave the war! The end of the war in Afghanistan will be settled by a political settlement and not through a military victory. In such an arrangment, the Taliban will be certainly be a signficant stake holder in the political process and it was this aim; to remove the Taliban from power that brought the Americans to Afghanistan and nine years later, that aim is tottering on the brink of a failure.

    Until the Americans figure out what they hope to accomplish in Afghanistan, they will lack a clear policy and they will remain confused.

    ciao

  20. Tilsim Thoughts are worthy of attention except that as far as Sir Nawaz SharrReef is concerned, he should not have been allowed to proceed to Saudia by their Jumbo-Get (or Jet!). His punishment should have been executed.
    Dammit: it is nouveau-riche Nawazu that started the Renditioning of innocent Pakistanis by allowing Mir Aimal KASI to be brutally captured, kidnapped and bundled off ( merely upon a telephone call from the United States’ Secretary of State)… all without any Extradition or any other Judicial proceeding. Our courts, in pre-New National Judicial Policy days did cowardly look the other way (Plots, Perks, Peccadilloes, Patronage, Pull-AO-Zarda Re, poly-plots, Privileges intervened). It has been downhill for Pakistan since 1998. Now that the Chickens are coming home to Roost … I can say as the lawyer for Mir Aimal Kasi Foundation (with no funds, just ideas) that I: “Told You So!”.

    Another aspect of our National life is this: there is no worthy tradition of Investigative Journalism. The media in Pakistan is monopoliZed by three and half press barons who have benefited from the burgeoning OfficialDOOM’s under-the-table turfing and largese to the tune of billions (all 3 1/2 are Billionaires even in Kuwaiti currency).

    And Look at our lawyers .. not one had the decency to tell the phanthom HARRIS STEAL MILLS that they should return some Rs 23 BILLIONS that “they “siphoned-off … the emphasis has been on scavenging fees in crores, banked overseas. One says he paid incometax on 15 Millions that he extracted (the accused say they paid him over Rs 30 Million). What services did he render? Is this kind olf fee in dignifying/perpetuating FRAUD ethical or even intelloectual.

    If Reema Jii, Barbara Shariff pay all the inome tax (dont worry! they dont) on their hard-labour income, is that income halal?

    I have asked for two decades : this Maati has enough rum that eg Jhelum produced such outstanding luminaries Dr. Manmohan Singh, Gujral and Sunil Dutt (all nonMuslims); but it also produced the antithesis, Hajji Iftikhar Hussain Choud-hurry. I offered to hold a Boston Tea Party (Tea and half-boiled eggs and hardened-cakes) in his hohonour, at the Lahore High Court Bar Association CANteen; but he dare not come out of his house fearing bombardment of lawyers’ affections and intentions.

    One items that deserves a lot of attention but seems to be ignored/overlooked is , when the sacrosanct American Drones kill an innocent Pakistani .. does U$A pay any compensation? Who pockets it?

    Over, ought and Ouch…

  21. Glossary:

    olf fee= of fee
    enough rum = enough Numm (an Urdu word)
    intellectoel = Freudian slip / applies to our semi-illiterati better who are not legitimately ‘intellectuals’ in any real / honest-to-goodness sense, just mimic and posture in that direction.

    CONCLUSION:

    The aBOVE WRITE-up by syyed iqbal geoffrey has one bona fide typo “olf” .. you can hang that “L” as work of art and driVe home to realty.
    [[[P.S. Simultaneously our leaders are busy … giving us a Good Luck (oops!)]]].

  22. Bin Ismail

    @ Amaar (September 16, 2010 at 6:58 pm)

    “…..For far too long Pakistani government has abandoned the ‘illaqa-ghair’ to thugs and bandits such as these people…..”

    I would say that the entire country has been abandoned to the mullahs. The entire country has turned into an “ilaaqa-e ghair”.

    @ Raza Raja (September 17, 2010 at 12:28 am)

    “…..What I find beyond belief is that drone attack invite far more condemnation than attacks by Taliban monsters…..”

    This is how the logic of these “sovereignty- specialists” works: a hundred innocent casualties at the hands of the mullah are better than a single terrorist eliminated by a drone.

    Good article by the way.

  23. moniems

    Isn’t it high time we start thinking why our country is what it is?

    Going through all the comments above by so many learned and thinking Pakistanis leaves one in a rather worried state of mind.

    Looking at our journey so far after the birth of our nation, and where we stand today, it seems impossible to see which way we are headed; what our future is, and what kind of a country our children will live in. The future, to me at least, does not look very rosy. The most worrying part is how the world is starting to look at Pakistan as a nation.

    In my humble view, all such debates and discussions should lead us to some concrete action. Can we have some ideas for such action?

  24. Samachar

    New York Times on Shahed Hussain, a FBI informant, testifying in court under oath:

    “And he talked about meeting Ms. Bhutto, who, he said, was his old neighbor and friend from Karachi. He met her at the Ritz-Carlton in Manhattan with his son, who had just turned 17. Ms. Bhutto, who was killed in 2007, gave him $40,000 to buy the boy a Mercedes-Benz, Mr. Hussain said.

  25. Talha

    There seems to be lack of understanding amongst the media that Pakistan even has something called National Sovereignty. Its like saying that Pakistan has democracy or a government. They all exist in theory only and are not formally active.

    Back to the topic, the use of such terms and confusion caused through them is only achievable in Pakistan. This is where an educated man is also unable to grasp the meaning of a statement.

    Drone strikes have approval of both, PA and GoP. Similarly, we are incapable of dealing with Zia’s children, I mean Jihadis to exert any real damage to them and US is cleaning up the mess we both created.

    Good old Mr Jinnah would have never envisioned what this menace would do with this nation.

  26. Bin Ismail

    Our “National Sovereignty” was sold in September 1974, when Z. A. Bhutto went ahead to declare the Ahmadis non-Muslims through an Act of Parliament, in exchange for Saudi blessings and dollars. Saudi favour was bought and national sovereignty was sold. The curse of this deal deepened with the passage of time, until one day we woke up to realize that the country was being held hostage by one of the worst forms of mullaisms ever known.

    Until this curse is not removed, the lost national sovereignty will not come back.

  27. Talha

    The Ahmadi issue is of great importance in this current predicament that we are facing.

    Ahmadi’s worked hard for Pakistan but the day they were excommunicated, Pakistan died as the nation Jinnah had thought it would be.

    The rise of political Islam and Mullahs has a direct link with that matter.

    But no one has the guts to change these laws, even repealing Ordinance XX is a far sight.

    We will keep sliding down till then, even Bangladesh is surpassing us. We have our ideal in Afghanistan, that is what we want, sharia under Ameer-ul-Momineen.

  28. Bilal Ahmad

    In response to terrorism our opinion makers are biased. Our mulla has fed so much hate to us that we can’t distinguish between Jihad and militancy. Still the mulla is successful in advocating Jihadis’ propaganda by ‘go america go’ sort of things.
    I don’t support drone attacks, but don’t see any alternative. It is not matter of national sovereignty as our state in incapable to deal with this menace. On one hand our state claims to be sovereign, on the other terrorists can come and stay in suburbs of Islamabad (i.e. Bara-Kho), plan and execute attacks.

  29. Bin Ismail

    @Talha (September 18, 2010 at 6:11 am)

    “…..Ahmadi’s worked hard for Pakistan but the day they were excommunicated, Pakistan died as the nation Jinnah had thought it would be. The rise of political Islam and Mullahs has a direct link with that matter. But no one has the guts to change these laws, even repealing Ordinance XX is a far sight…..”

    Very True. Notwithstanding the fact that many may be inclined to interpret this as a coincidence, but one cannot help noticing that the 2005 massive earthquake came shortly after a massacre of Ahmadis and the recent devastating floods too, closely followed another massacre of Ahmadis.

    Persecution of Ahmadis continues in Pakistan. Discriminatory laws against Ahmadis continue to exist. Yesterday, there was another earthquake, whose epicenter was the Hindukush and measured over 6 on the Richter scale. Strong tremors were felt in a vast area. This could well be a warning. The wise should take heed.

  30. ANALYSIS: The drone strikes must continue —Farhat Taj

    Wherever military operations in FATA took place, the area has since completely been handed over to the militants and the state’s writ surrendered through agreements with the militants. Sadly, the tribesmen and women have become disappointed in the army and are terrified of the army and the Taliban

    The US has stepped up drone strikes in the last few weeks on the terrorists occupying large parts of FATA. Simultaneously, the anti-drone strikes propaganda in the Pakistani media is gearing up and producing misleading opinion pieces as usual. All this media propaganda is far from the truth. Either the media, Pakistani and international that draws on Pakistani media reports, have no clue about the drone-related ground situation in the drone-hit areas or they are deliberately spreading false information. In either case the media is breaching its professional ethics and, above all, misleading people all over the world. I have been challenging such misleading media reports through my newspaper columns and research papers, but the misinformation continues.

    The drones hit their targets, i.e. al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists, with guided missiles that never miss. The Pakistan Army performs exactly the opposite through its unguided aerial bombardment and artillery firing. The tribesmen compare the achievements of the drone strikes with the human disaster inflicted by the Pakistan Army in FATA. The army has caused considerable collateral damage in the form of hundreds of civilians who were killed, public and private property worth millions of dollars was destroyed and hundreds of thousands of people were displaced — yet the army never killed any leading Taliban commanders. The drone attacks have led to no population displacements, no loss to public or private property and hardly any civilian casualty ever. It is no wonder then that the people of FATA, especially those in the drone-hit areas, are comfortable with the drone strikes and welcome the recent hike in the attacks on the terrorists occupying their native land.

    The people of FATA argue that under the garb of military operations, the ISI had, in fact, strengthened the terrorists. It was during these operations that much of the tribal leadership was eliminated by both the Taliban and military in order to create a power vacuum that would allow them to take over. Wherever military operations in FATA took place, the area has since completely been handed over to the militants and the state’s writ surrendered through agreements with the militants. Sadly, the tribesmen and women have become disappointed in the army and are terrified of the army and the Taliban. The tribesmen and women’s perception is that Pakistani intelligence agencies have no desire to destroy the Taliban in their native land and the terrorists have simply been disappearing from one area only to reappear in another area inside FATA.

    Both the Pakistani media as well as the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) are spreading false information about the war on terror in FATA, including the drone strikes, in arrogant disregard to the sufferings of the people of FATA. They both must know that their false propaganda is being noted by the people of FATA. The tribesmen and women may be overpowered by the terrorists and terrified by the ISI, but they know who is misleading the world about the ground situation in their land. The Pakistani media and the ISPR are contributing nothing but disappointment in the Pakistani state and hatred of the ISI in FATA.

    It is a matter of concern that even the judiciary in Pakistan is also trying to ride on the wave of anti-Americanism on the eastern side of the Indus River in Pakistan in terms of the drone attacks. Someone petitioned against the drone strikes in FATA in the Lahore High Court and the Chief Justice reportedly said that the “drone attacks were increasing terrorism in the country (Pakistan) by killing innocent people (in FATA)”. This is coming from a judiciary that has no jurisdiction over FATA. The judiciary should show some ‘independence’ to extend human rights to the people of FATA, which have been denied to them as per the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Or perhaps the judiciary simply does not care about FATA, since it does not fall under its jurisdiction, and is merely responding to the anti-American feelings of its jurisdiction, i.e. Pakistan minus FATA. With all due respect, let me say that our judiciary is not famous for ‘messing’ with issues under the monopoly of the military establishment. The unfortunate FATA also falls under the absolute control of the ISI and therefore it is no wonder the judiciary is passing remarks that squarely fit into the ISI scheme of things in FATA.

    The worst outcome of the anti-drone propaganda in the Pakistani media is that researchers around the world have been misled. In complete disregard to research ethics, researchers have been producing reports on FATA that are simply baseless or, at best, far from the truth. FATA is closed for independent scholarly investigation due to security reasons and researchers never seem to cross-check Pakistani media reports with first hand information from FATA. They do not even acknowledge their lack of access to the area as a shortcoming of their research. Such researchers include some of the most famous ‘FATA experts’ who travel around the world to educate the world on FATA, its people, culture, history and above all the current security situation.

    The researchers, Pakistani judiciary, the ISPR and media, both Pakistani and international, must acknowledge that the anti-drone strikes public opinion surveys that they have been so comfortably referring to depict Pakistani public opinion never included the people of FATA. None of the surveys have been conducted in FATA. As far as I know, the only public opinion survey in FATA about the drone attacks has been conducted by the Aryana Institute for Regional Research and Advocacy, which showed that the majority public opinion in FATA supports the drone attacks.

    Meanwhile, the relentless drone attacks on terrorists’ positions in FATA must continue without any break. This is the message of the people in the drone-hit areas of FATA. They believe drone strikes are the most effective strategy against the terrorists in the context of Pakistan’s dubious relations with the Taliban. So the US must keep them up.

    The writer is a PhD Research Fellow with the University of Oslo and currently writing a book Taliban and Anti-Taliban

  31. Raza Raja

    @ Ali Arqam

    Excellent analysis and ofcourse I fully agree!

  32. no-communal

    BI
    “…. but one cannot help noticing that the 2005 massive earthquake came shortly after a massacre of Ahmadis and the recent devastating floods too, closely followed another massacre of Ahmadis.

    Persecution of Ahmadis continues in Pakistan. Discriminatory laws against Ahmadis continue to exist. Yesterday, there was another earthquake, whose epicenter was the Hindukush and measured over 6 on the Richter scale. Strong tremors were felt in a vast area. This could well be a warning. The wise should take heed.”

    Is this a valid religious view ? God killing indiscriminately by floods and earthquakes for faults of a few?

  33. Bin Ismail

    @no-communal (September 19, 2010 at 8:55 am)

    “…..Is this a valid religious view ? God killing indiscriminately by floods and earthquakes for faults of a few?…..”

    The faulty few not only represent but also derive their strength from the multitude – the silent majority. This includes their strength to commit atrocity. The silent majority, on the other hand prefers not to speak out when they witness atrocity. Finally, let us not forget that God is the judge.

  34. due

    to bin ismail

    what about the children who died in natural disasters? how do they fit into your “clever” justification attempts?

    You wrote: “The silent majority, on the other hand prefers not to speak out when they witness atrocity.”

    Prefers? Are you sure? Has god not allowed many, who protested against atrocities, to be tortured or killed brutally?

    But you are right when I think of how some muslim liberals act as hide-outs or protectors or justifiers for muslim terrorists.

    Your god is not a precision-killer. He too seems to be a random-killer. Then why blame the US-american drones?

  35. Bin Ismail

    @”due”

    Thank you for responding. The God I believe in – and I hope you appreciate the fact that I will be sharing with you my own beliefs – is the Creator, Lord, Cherisher and Proprietor of the entire Cosmos. All living and non-living entities are very much His possession and property. Just as giving life is His prerogative, so is ending life His rightful jurisdiction. Man cannot question the right of the Proprietor to grant or terminate the life of His own creation. He cause life and He causes death with impeccable precision. He never falters.

  36. due

    to bin ismail

    such gods are a nuisance.
    they are good for manipulating human beings.
    the result is for all to see in pakistan and saudi arabia. hope of help is only from persons who don’t believe in such gods.

  37. Bin Ismail

    @ due

    Just as you are free to accept or not to accept the existence of God, others too are free to entertain their own beliefs.

    The line of argument you seem to be adopting, whereby you term someone a nuisance, will in all likelihood, culminate in others reciprocating by calling you a nuisance.

  38. no-communal

    Bin Ismail

    “The faulty few not only represent but also derive their strength from the multitude – the silent majority. This includes their strength to commit atrocity. The silent majority, on the other hand prefers not to speak out when they witness atrocity. Finally, let us not forget that God is the judge.”

    With due respect, BI Sb, the day you will be able to rationalize the death of the nine-day old infant buried under a 30-ft rubble in the Kashmir earthquake, or the death of the month-old baby swept by the floods in KP, by this logic, I will start believing in god. And please remember, unlike some other religion (not to say they are any more logical), you don’t have the liberty to use the logic of bad karma from a previous birth.

  39. no-communal

    BI Sb,
    I didn’t get to see the exchange you were having with due before I posted mine.

  40. due

    to bin ismail

    if I am called a nuisance by those who propagate/defend a totalitarian-fascist-whimsical god-concept and an absolutist-finalist-intolerant religion then I am relaxed. I call it a good qualification for me.

    by the way you seem to believe in several contradictory gods.

    god of love
    god of mercy
    god of justice
    god of arbitrariness
    a god who is whimsical and no one can ask why he did or allowed something
    and so on…

    Merely declaring that they are contained in one single god does not make it true. You may as well declare you are 10 meters tall.

  41. Raza Raja

    What kind of discussion is taking place on an article about drone attacks!!!!

  42. due

    to raza raja

    good question.

    why does that happen in this forum again and again?

    The title is about national sovereignty.

    But Pakistan has lost it to an alien arab old backward-oriented religion right from the beginning. That too voluntarily and enthusiatically. Hating India and hindus is a major tonic to consol over this loss. Right from the beginning.

    Sovereignty being assigned to some vague whimsical god, or some old ambiguous book and its phantasies, or some amir-ul-“true-believers” (“true” here de facto means “intolerant, conceited and arrogant”) etc. – where does that lead to? The result is there to see.

    Does that explain? Does that answer your question?

  43. Raza Raja

    @ due

    @due
    No it does not…i think as usual irrelevant things are being brought in just for the sake to manouvering the discussion to pakistan bashing…

    Any ways I would like you to go through this and may be you will get the idea as to why i am objecting to this thread’s direction..

    https://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/liberal-pakistani-websites-and-indian-right-wingers/

  44. due

    to raza raja

    I beg to submit that first of all the very title of this article was wrong. I have read it already.

    Pakistani liberals are endangered and have to be very careful about what they can really write. Their solutions do not criticize the religion that has brought so much backwardness upon these descendants of hindus who were manipulated (through intimidations, lies, sentimental stories, passion-raking, falsified history-narrations etc.) to become muslims.

    Fact is: the 10 pakistani men who attacked Mumbai were doing it in the name of their arabic god, whom they hoped to meet soon after.

    The indian has no other choice but to look into pakistani websites (whatever are available for access) to find out when the next attack will come. This has nothing to do with his being right-wing. It is just being right-minded.

    Take Kashmir as example. Kashmir is (originally) hindu land that islam wants to include into the dar ul islam and Pakistan wants to raise its own status in the muslim world by making this happen. The quisling is often more enthusiastic (to prove his dedication to the imperialist cause) than his imperial master. Kashmiri youth throwing stones at indian police and army and geting killed – who is profiting from that, who is instigating the kashmiri children to do that? If Kashmir separates from India – how long will its “azadi” be respected by the sunni imperialist from the west and the chinese imperialist from the east? Are the kashmiri youth so foolish as not to understand this – and why are they so foolish? Are the pakistani liberals discussing this reality? If all the money that India has spent on Kashmir had been allowed for civil purposes only (and Pakistan was and is hell-bent that this does not happen), it would have been the richest and most peaceful and progressive state in India.

    How would pakistani police and army react when stones will be thrown at them (what they indeed truly deserve – to go by their exploits of the past against their own people)?

    Actually the so-called pakistani liberals are also right-wingers (with exceptions like raza rumi or najam sethi). And what you call as indian right-wingers are just frightened hindus (urine running down their pants) trying to find out when and where the next attack from hyper-islamized Pakistan will come (and change the color of their urine from yellow to red).

  45. Bin Ismail

    @ no-communal [September 19, 2010 at 10:19 pm]

    “…..And please remember, unlike some other religion (not to say they are any more logical), you don’t have the liberty to use the logic of bad karma from a previous birth…..”

    I suppose you’re right on that account. In presenting or expounding my own religious beliefs, I neither have to my disposal the liberty to use the logic of “bad karma” nor the logic of the “original sin”. The logic, I however, would humbly put forth, is that God, as I understand Him, is the Judge, Master and Proprietor of all humans. His discretion to initiate life or to conclude it in the material world, thus cannot be questioned. Having said that, I appreciate that it is indeed your right to recognize God as such or to deny Allah or Shiv as having the right to cause death or to not believe in God altogether. Please remember that we are not engaged in a debate that ends with a verdict from a presiding officer. We are participating in a discussion, that entails little beyond an honest exchange of views.

    Regards.

  46. Raza Raja

    @ due

    Whom are you trying to fool here? An article which is about national soverignity and you are here spewingvenom and worst still blaming Pakistani liberals.

    Anyways I wont argue with you because certain people are simply beyond reason.

    So dont bother

    yawn

  47. due

    to raza

    I did not say a word of accusation against any pakistani liberals. I merely described the sorry situation in which they are. Instead of yawning be awake and think correctly.

    As regards national sovereignty – I correctly described that pakistanis have lost their sovereignty to an alien ideology from arabia and to an old book >>by their own volition<<. Is that wrong? So how am I fooling anyone? Pakistanis thenselves are proudly declaring that they have given over the sovereignty to the arab god and his ideology and ancient laws.

    There are many true things which a pakistani liberal cannot openly admit as being true. I can understand that. Living in a society where street gangs rule, schools molest children with religious propaganda, police co-operative with them and judges are timid or biased – the liberal has to protect himself for the sake of his family.

    I am not blaming pakistani liberals – only understanding their plight. You are the one blaming honest terrified indians as right-wingers in order to silence them or humiliate them.

    to bin ismail

    How does your god treat those who do not acknowledge him, flatter him, bow down before him? Are they safe and do they retain their human rights and dignity and freedom of expression? That will reveal whether it is a fascist god-concept or not.

    Your god sends earthquakes and floods to punish the guilty killing many a children and dumb animals in the process. Then why blame USA for their (less) inaccurate drones?

    Pakistan has become a mad-house due to too much of this alien religion created in some far off land in primitive times.

  48. no-communal

    @BI

    I agree. I actually saw (but only after I posted mine) one of your responses to due and understood. That’s why I added that I didn’t get to see your exchanges before posting mine.

    Obviously I respect the right of individuals to their beliefs. My goal, unrelated to this thread as it is, was just to nudge a knowledgable man to respond to some of my own doubts.

  49. due

    to no-communal

    knowledgeable man?

    flatterous adjectives have become real cheap these days.

    knowledge of what, in what, how much, how accurate, how logical?

    are you confusing between knowledge and information or data or bits?

  50. no-communal

    @due

    What are you trying to achieve here?

    How are Raza Raja, who is among the most balanced I have seen in the blogosphere, and Bin Ismail, who is among the most knowledgable, answerable to you or me?

    If you have a question, even a grievance, let’s discuss. Even tough ones, as long as they are relevant. But what you are doing here is simply one way badmouthing. You want them to acknowlege to you, right here right now, that Islam is evil, not only evil, inferior to Hinduism, Pakistan is rotten, and Pakistanis in general are pathetic.

    How is that a civilized interaction?

  51. no-communal

    In fact, I am surprised at the cool-headedness of Raza that he is still responding. This is despite all the badmouthing going on, in the name of interaction, directed at his own country and religion. These must be dear to them too, like they are dear to us?

  52. Raza Raja

    @ No communal thanks for support.

    I understand that people like Due are just trying to provoke a reaction by bad mouthing my religion. I am one those authors who have written a lot on reintrepretation of religion. I fully understand the way hardline Islam has caused havoc. However that does not mean that people like Due should be allowed to be mean with any one.

  53. Raza Raja

    @ Due

    Read this also. I am not in denial of anything. I know Islam needs to be reinterpreted. I have written on it also. However I distinguish between well meaning advise and simple right wing bigotry which you are spewing

    anyways read this

    https://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/why-reinterpretation-of-religon-is-needed/

  54. no-communal

    “I am one those authors who have written a lot on reintrepretation of religion. I fully understand the way hardline Islam has caused havoc.”

    Hey Raza,
    You are “among the most balanced AND knowledgable…”. Just kidding😉

  55. Raza Raja

    @ no communal

    hahahaha that was a good one!!!

  56. due

    to raza and no-communal

    we have been told about a good islam (soon to come!) since 1400 years. In recent days the number of people (among them even some silly non-muslims) telling us to wait (just a few more months!) till islam becomes the best ever has also increased rapidly.

    How long are we going to get fooled by this? Another 1400 years?

    Some are even telling us that the US-constitution is already an islamic one, i.e. as an islamic one should be.

    BUT

    There are some 40 indelible sentences in the kuran which will cause violence, hatred, anger, aggression, tribalism, primitivism, deceit, confusions and self-deceit as a way of life among muslims again and again. That is also the track-record of the past 1400 years.

    Islam is younger than judaism and christianity. Hence islam had and has the possibility of learning form their idiocies, mistakes and crimes. Hence we have to judge islam more strictly (than these two). The more grand/arrogant the claims the tougher the criteria of judgement. And islam is the ideology with the most grand/arrogant claims.

    Hence

    It is not only our right but even our duty to be impatient with islam.

    “Right-wing bigotry” is something else. It is you who is badmouthing by using this phrase. Impatience is not bigotry.

  57. moniems

    This has been, and is going on to be, a very interesting discussion. Sovereignty? What is that? Pakistan is now only Islam, and that too of its own home-grown variety.

    I have been out of Pakistan for a very long time, and it looks like I will never be able go back. Pakistan is no more livable, and is becoming less so day by day.

    I have grown out of Islam, and am very happy about it. For me, Nature is the only Allah, and Humanism the only religion. I enjoy a feeling of “Nijaat”.

    What do my learned countrymen think of this?

  58. Bin Ismail

    @moniems (September 21, 2010 at 3:12 pm)

    May I respectfully suggest that as long as one keeps his religion or “out of religion” out of politics and statecraft, it should be treated as nothing more than his personal business.

  59. moniems

    @Bin Ismail

    Shukriya! Aap ne to mere dil ki baat kah daali.

    Religion and State must be kept separate. That is what I like about India. Religion being a matter of faith, has to be personal. I have never understood why we regard it as hereditary. Do genes carry faith?

    I, for one, have never seen the need of any religion, but if one must have a Religion and a God the following suits the most.

    Nature the only God, and Humanism the only religion. No mullah can fool you, and the book of Nature everyone loves.

  60. Bin Ismail

    @ moniems (September 22, 2010 at 7:29 pm)

    “…..Religion being a matter of faith, has to be personal…..”

    I fully endorse these words of yours – shukriya.

  61. Tilsim

    @ Moniems
    “I have grown out of Islam, and am very happy about it. For me, Nature is the only Allah, and Humanism the only religion. I enjoy a feeling of “Nijaat”.

    What do my learned countrymen think of this?”

    I am not clear why are you so interested in telling us your beliefs if your would like religion to be a personal matter? You keep on pointing people to a particular website and a particular belief. It comes across as proselytising. Proselytising is not the same as keeping faith personal.

    You say that you have been away from Pakistan for a long time. As you may recall and it is still the case that most people in Pakistan have deep seated religious beliefs. They also equate a secular state with irreligion. I think proselytising by atheists and talking about a secular state at the same time helps to confirm their fears. In fact the message that should be articulated is that secularism and irreligion are not conjoint twins as is the evidence from secular countries such as India, the United States, Poland or southern European countries where religion and religious expression are very important.

  62. moniems

    @Tilsim

    Glad to learn you have been keeping an observant eye on my comments. Shukriya!

    I am in complete agreement with your views. Thanks for pointing out that I “come across as proselytizing”. In fact, that is not my purpose, and what I have been writing are not my religious beliefs. Those are so personal that I do not share them even with my students (I am into education), my children and my grand-children. I just ensure their education makes them good human beings, and hope they will find their own ideas about God and religion when they are mature enough. I wish to convert no one to my views. The web-sites I recommend were my stepping stones to what I am today. In fact, study of Buddhism and J.Krishnamurti has had a more decisive impact on my thought. I strongly believe in JK’s famous saying, “Truth is a pathless land”.

    Having lived away from my motherland for over half a century, I have been a keen observer of what is happening in, and to Pakistan. It hurts to see the perpetual downward shift. It hurts to see that no one respects or trusts Pakistan any more; how we have to beg for help in flood relief; how we are killing each other; how we keep asking Kashmiri Muslims (all Sufis) to join us when we kill Sufis in Lahore; how the US is now telling us its pay-back time; how we think Chinese will never present their bills. I bow my head in shame when I have to hear any of the following:

    • Pakistan is the epicenter of all terrorism,

    • Pakistan is the only country that makes a living by threatening to commit suicide.

    All these things trouble me, but I feel so helpless. The only hope I can see is in educated and wise people like you who are living in Pakistan. I can see that it is religion that is ruining the nation, and hope you all can do something about it. May be my stepping stones can be of some use.

  63. due

    to moniems

    An absolutist-finalist-totalitarian ideology pretending to be a religion and working up emotions is worse than a swarm of locusts eating all your crops – the typical biblical wrath of god – why this god can’t communicate clearly with humans is a puzzle. This biblical god and his later off-shoots and variants have caused more confusions, backward-oriented-ness, self-deceits and acts of violence than by many a human dictator.

    That an intelligent (but megalomaniac and conceited) man like Jinnah resorted to blackmail Gandhi, Nehru and Patel by resorting to islam and to slander against hindus – that is exactly what you say when you talk of Pakistan as a nation that lives (or tries to live) by threatening to commit suicide. Even Jinnah tried it.

    Pakistan is a nation of brown and dark-skinned hindu (=inhabitants of the Sindhu river basin) humans – not of arabs, turks or persians. Every misbehaviour by a “pakistani” is a spot on indians (who look same or similar) also.

    But if an indian writes such things on the PTH he gets censored. Even some indians who wish to flatter the muslims clobber him. They accuse him of being right-wing, RSS and other chosen expletives.

    Pakistani leaders are quislings of arabs, turks, chinese, USA and whosoever helps them hate and hurt India and hindus.

  64. moniems

    To due

    People may find truth in what you say depending on their perceptions or points of view. I, for one, do not view the position in terms of Hindu Muslim. I see it from a humanist’s point of view.

    Pakistan has been, from the very beginning, inculcating hatred for Hindus in the minds of its children. That hatred still lives on in the minds of people. One day, it will be realized that the hatred one harbours in ones heart only burns the harbourer from inside, and does in no way harm the hated entity.

    India and Bangladesh have handled the effects of Partition better than Pakistan. If only Pakistan could get over its imaginary fears of India, it will be helpful. No one need fear India, because it has never in all its history attacked any other country, in spite of being attacked and occupied by so many. When Pakistani army surrendered in Dhaka in 1971, India was in complete control of Bangladesh. It could have stayed on and merged Bangladesh into India, but instead it handed over all the army equipment of defeated Pak army to the new Bangladesh army and withdrew. India also withdrew from Pakistan territory it occupied in 1956 war after Tashkent Agreement, and returned 96000 Pak prisoners of war in 1972 after Simla Agreement. Compare this to what Israel has done since 1964 war. It still holds all occupied lands.

    In my view we must all be proud of being the residents of the Indian sub-continent, and help each other where ever we can.

  65. moniems

    Sorry. A correction please.

    In my comment above for “1956” please read “1965”.

  66. due

    to moniem

    At least there is one person on the PTH who does not hate me.

    To criticize is to love really. Pakistanis don’t understand that because “their” religion teaches them flattery and otherwise hate towards those who refuse to flatter (them or “their” alien-arabic religion).

    To hate someone means not to criticize him but to let him fall into the ditch towards which he is headed (blindfolded by his arrogant “faith”).

    We (in the indian subcontinent) have lost 60 years and 5000 billion dollars on this hate instigated by this alien arabic religion and its self-glorifying history-narration.

  67. moniems

    @due

    Thanks again!

    I have a feeling you could certainly make many more friends than just me. All that is needed is to change your tactics. You know quite a lot, and try thrusting all that down the throats of fellow bloggers. That approach never works.

    If you do not mind, I will suggest the right approach; one adopted by experienced teachers.

    If you want to teach me something I am ignorant of, never give me an impression that you know about my ignorance. Instead, try suggesting that you are reminding me of something I may be forgetting. And, you have to be extra careful if I am reluctant to change my point of view.

    I believe we are all very nice people, but we have not been keeping good company. Religious teachers of all kinds are dangerous. The Hindu God-men have turned their art into a very paying business. The Muslim religious teachers, on the other hand, play a very dangerous game. All this because of one word “Kafir”, and that they should be killed. I do not know why a Kafir can not be converted to a non-Kafir. If they could learn this art, they could make a lot of money like the Hindu God-men, and give peace a chance.

    Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis can make great chums together!

  68. due

    to Moniems

    “Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis can make great chums together!”

    That’s what I am looking forward to. But we have to remain with the ideologies and religions created in our subcontinent and not let ourselves be misled by some imports from west-asia.

    I differentiate between WAR religions and EAR religions.

    WAR = West Asiatic Revelation-based
    EAR = East Asiatic (Self-)Realization-based

    We in the indian subcontinent (many islamically indoctrinated pakistanis find this term itself an opprobrium) have richer traditions and religions than all others put together. We don’t have to become mental slaves of some imported arab or christian god. This is not to say that we have nothing to learn from others.

  69. moniems

    @due

    I agree with you entirely.

    Because religion is a mater of faith, it cannot but be personal. Everyone, wherever he or she may be, should have a religion he/she has faith in. No one has a right to dictate what faith another should have.

    I would go beyond your prescription. There should be, and in India there is, freedom to have have WAR, EAR, NOSE, FOOT, EYES, TAIL or whatever you chose as your religion.

    There should be no concern on that score for you.
    Aurangzeb has been dead and gone a long time ago.

    I request you to drop your objection to those who prefer an imported variety.

  70. due

    Moniem wrote:

    “I request you to drop your objection to those who prefer an imported variety.”

    It is not the problem with being imported or not. It is about the absolutist-finalist-totalitarian nature of any import (or export or indigenous product).

    An ideology that brings forth a khatma-e-nabuvvat type of fascism is bad – no matter whether imported or indigenous or exported.

    An ideology that teaches that someone or something is unquestionable-final-uncriticizable leads into a fascism centred around this someone or something (e.g. a book). It has become a problem also in the land of its origin. This can one day lead to the absurdity that a day will come when the arabs abandon this old thing but the pakistanis stick to it with zeal and ruin themselves – trying to be more arabs than arabs. When I saw the pictures from Pakistani floods – the people affected were hardly looking like persians or arabs, more like biharis, rajasthanis etc. But their religion has taught them to denigrate everything hindu and exalt everything arab.

    What would you say if Pakistan, in order to get money, imports nuclear waste and stores it in its sands (and, to make matters worse, the ruling elite makes off with that money to god-knows-where)? So the question is: what do you import?

    That is where my objections are.

  71. moniems

    @due

    I grant you the right to object. But, what do you think will change because you object?

    Be a bit generous. Please! Just like most Indians.

    A long time ago I read this book:

    “Why I m not a Muslim”
    Ibn Warraq.

    You may have already read it. You will like it if you have not. But note that Ibn Warraq does not do what you seem to attempt.

    PS. I tried to introduce a bit of humour into my comment. You have not complimented me on that. Did you miss it alltogether?

  72. due

    to moniems

    Aurangzeb died and left behind millions of Aurangzebs. In the fight between Dara and Aurangzeb the latter will always be the winner. This is because Aurangzeb’s spirit corresponds more to the spirit of that arabic book. It is not the victory of truth that takes place in this drama-scene. Let us leave that aside.

    I do appreciate humour but on the PTH some take it as a starting point for using vile or filthy language, so I avoid it altogether. Everything has its place. I am afraid PTH is not that place.

    Regarding imports once again:

    India has imported many ideas, ideologies and religions. But with the exception of islam none became a cause for any territorial-political partitioning or bitter hate-and-violence campaigns against hindus and hindu religions or extra-territorial loyalties or genocides against hindus or falsified accounts and narratives of history to denigrate hindus and to bootlick alien imperialists (arab, turks, pashtuns etc.).

    Otherwise I have no objection to imports.

  73. moniems

    @due

    I hope you have no problems with those in India who also prefer imports?

  74. due

    To moniems

    Actually I referred to whole of the indian subcontinent since the borders drawn therein are all artificial, based on the ambitions or requirements of the agents of an alien imperialist ideology.

    As regards imports in India (you mean Republic of India as since 1947 AD) itself – they are causing the same problems if they feel more loyalty to some alien arab god and his 7th century plans. The headache will keep growing if their propaganda is not countered by the secularists.

    I think that part is now cleared. Let’s go over to the next topic (as it comes).