Political Islam, Politics of Identity, Ethnic Nationalism and the Centralized State

By Raza Habib Raja

The selective way of presenting history in Pakistan conveniently ignores the fact that at its creation, there were two large sometimes contrasting and sometimes overlapping movements. The first was primarily centred around Muslim Identity and tried to actually bargain a better position for its bearers. This movement though ended up in carving a separate homeland for the Muslims, nevertheless did not have that strong separatist thrust at least in the beginning.

 However, the Islamic identity itself was not the only identity assumed by Muslims as strong ethnic nationalist tendencies existed particularly in the region which later became Pakistan. Thus the ethnic nationalist movements in NWFP and Baluchistan existed even before the partition. Let’s not forget that NWFP and Baluchistan were not totally comfortable when they “opted” for Pakistan. At best their support for Pakistan was tepid. West Pakistan at its creation was a multiethnic region with strong individual demands for greater autonomy based on linguistic and ethnic lines. The residents were largely Muslims but at the same time they also gave importance to their ethnic linguistic identities. East Pakistan had a more or less uniform language and culture and at that point supported Pakistan as they perceived the creation of that state as synonymous to sufficient degree of autonomy.

One thing grossly overlooked by the establishment is that ethnic based nationalism flourishes and can even manifest into separatist movement if the state creates this impression that it is biased. Nationalism is not merely preservation of identity; it is very much intertwined with the concept of state. If state is perceived as unjust then nationalists will try to create their own state and thus would try to secede.  Ernest Gellener actually defines nationalism in the context of injustice. The deprived and excluded, if belonging to some common ethnicity, will revolt and will form nationalist expression built around that ethnicity and may end up striving for a state of their own.

Another important fact is that, identities based on linguistic cum ethnic lines cannot be made to disappear through superimposition  or playing up the religious factor particularly when discrimination and exclusion is based on such lines. Yes being a Muslim is an important part of the identity, but at the same time so is the ethnicity and language, and the latter would assume supremacy in the environment of discrimination, whether real or perceived.

Keeping this situation in mind, where five major ethnic nationalities existed with a strong tendency to demand a sufficient degree of economic, social and cultural autonomy, the best bet the keep the state of Pakistan intact was to allow sufficient autonomy at the provincial  level to ensure that ethnic expression was not stifled. However, here came the crucial error. The Pakistani establishment at that time and ever since has assumed that allowing provincial autonomy and greater ethnic expression coupled with decentralization would weaken the federation. Moreover, it erroneously assumed that the two nation theory negated fostering of regional identities. 

These two assumptions have accounted for the various ideological, political and administrative missteps which the state has taken over the years to “tackle” the issue of ethnic diversity and nationalism. Instead of accommodating ethnic diversity the central idea has been to negate it through various means.

 As pointed out quite eloquently by Mr. Stephen Cohen in his book “The Idea of Pakistan” that Pakistani leaders have not fully grasped that in an ethnically diverse state most politics is of identity  and closely linked to issues of pride, status, jobs and social equality.  They seem convinced that ethno-linguistic demands are an economic problem, not a political, problem, and if other means fail, a military problem.

There are a wide range of administrative, political as well as ideological blunders which the largely Punjab dominated centre and establishment have committed over the past 60 years and with devastating results. These blunders have proven to be counterproductive to the original aim of keeping the state intact in a smooth manner and have created alienation in the other ethnicities. But the ill effects go beyond harming the harmonious relations between the ethnicities. These have actually had catastrophic effect on the other aspects also.  

The ideological drive which places a strong emphasis on Isalmization actually also tries to counter the issue of ethnic identities. The aim has been to ensure a strong centre as it has been viewed critical for the integration of the state. The policy of Islamization has not been carried out to radicalize the population but chiefly as a political tool to subdue nationalistic forces. Even state sponsored talibanization was partly done to diffuse Pushtun ethnic identity and amalgamate it into state preferred Sunni Muslim Identity. Needless to say that it has produced catastrophic results and continues to produce such results.

 In fact we have not learnt anything from the history and instead of trying to address ethnic nationalist demands have continued to counter it by efforts to play up the Islamic factor to diffuse ethnic identity and demands. The Islamic drive became more vehement after the secession of East Pakistan.  Instead of getting to the root of the problem which was OVER CENTRALIZATION AND PUNJAB’S DOMINANCE, our response has been to play up Islamic identity in order to overcome the ethnic forces. The fundamental assumption is that ethnic demands would weaken the state and therefore if ethnic identity can be “replaced” or at least superseded by Islamic identity, the state would survive.

 Of course ideological thrust on fostering Islamic identity has been carried out to chiefly supplement the administrative, political and economic set up in which the centre dominates.

 Pakistan has in fact continued with the colonial structure with minor amendments to “adjust” it to its ground realities. This structure with a centralized bureaucracy, powerful feudal structure, huge powers vested in the centre and a large army is chiefly designed to ensure a powerful centre. One has to go into pre partition times to understand about the structure and rationale of this brand of state structure.

 The British created a new breed of Feudal lords with proper legal title while retaining monopoly on the sole use of violence as coercive measure. This clever tactic insulated the populace from the state as it created a layer while ensuring that  monopoly of violence (state’s coercive power). The landlord while legal owner of the land had to exclusively rely on a centrist state to tackle with any trouble at the local level. Thus state eventually evolved as a mere enforcer rather than a body responsive to the local concerns. Its prime concern by design was ensuring authority of the centre.

On a broader level the state was structured with powers vested in the centre and provinces were to be ruled with limited autonomy. The act of 1935 which also became the source of inspiration for all the subsequent acts was again centrist in orientation. These two important characteristics which were designed by British, a foreign ruler, to ensure “insensitive” hegemony of the centre and Pakistan’s establishment as well as political class with centrists tendencies continued to persist with it. The post colonial state is actually an extension of the colonial state but with the changed central government. This structure was deliberately allowed to continue to ensure preservation of a centre oriented State. This structure is bound to create resentment at the local/provincial level and is designed for the IMPERSONAL kind of ruling.

In this structure the centre more or less controls the revenue and expenditure. And the centre is dominated by Punjab. The population wise allocation of revenue and Punjab’s dominance in the “establishment” institutions such as civil services, judiciary and above all armed forces has created resentment and given rise to grievances. The revenue and resource allocation is highly controversial and automatically gives rise to feelings of exclusion which invariably will be manifested in strong tides of nationalism and occasional secession based political violence. The revenue generated from other provinces ends up being spent on Punjab in disproportionate basis. Likewise the royalties from resource usage of smaller provinces do not proportionally match up the benefits derived from such usage. The resource rich Baluchistan despite enabling Pakistan to save billions of dollars because of natural gas gets paltry amount of royalty in return. It remains a poor province despite benefitting Pakistan a lot. If today there is a strong resentment in Baluchistan’s middleclass, it arises from these grave injustices not due to so called grand conspiracies of foreign powers.

The current structure is skewed, whether deliberately or inadvertently, in favour of Punjab and hence not surprisingly the identity of Punjab’s middleclass is strongly reminiscent of official version of what constitutes a Pakistani. The other provinces increasingly identify themselves on ethnic lines even though all may not be harbouring secessionist aspirations.

 Moreover, several blunders have been committed in the past to ensure preservation of the dominance of the privileged centre. One was the tactless imposition of one unit, which in the name of administrative “efficiency” tried to subdue the ethnic-linguistic expressions within the mould of governance. One unit scheme was a disaster and effectively sealed the fate of Pakistan unity. It ripped open the already smouldering wounds and needlessly aggravated the situation eventually leading to dismemberment of the country in 1970.

 The administrative blunders have always been supplemented with violent and unconstitutional methods of dealing with the nationalist forces. The centrist tendencies manifested in violence as Bengalis were crushed using military, a pattern which has repeatedly been used. The culture has developed where autonomy if voiced is construed as a danger to the state and is handled with force. We did not learn the lessons with Bangladesh and repeated the same with Baluchistan repeatedly. Baluchistan has literally experienced several uprisings and brutal retaliations from the state. The ongoing insurgency is not the first such insurgency as it has been preceded by insurgencies in 1958, 1960s and 1973-77. And the provincial governments have also been dismissed and at times on the explicit charge of “conspiracy to dismember Pakistan”.

 Right now as the Pakistan is fighting for its existence and bearing the brunt of its ideological blunder of promoting political Islam to tackle ethnic diversity, the time has come for us to learn our lessons. The foremost lesson is that dissent can only be addressed by addressing the root causes which are often emanating from exclusion and discrimination. Use of ideological engineering and tactics of coercion and intimidation will not strengthen the federation but weaken it.

 Another lesson which needs to be learnt and particularly by democracy skeptic Punjabi middleclass, is that an ethnically diverse country needs democracy even if it means scarifying governance. Ethnic diversity needs consensus at every step and the way it has evolved in Pakistan the need to negotiate and renegotiate the relationship terms between the provinces will increase with time. Only democracy provides the framework as well as the forum to do so. Only democracy provides the mechanism which can tap the voices of the provinces and project them for discourse at the national level. 

 Therefore this nonsensical yearning for army rule has to stop. Armed forces have always dealt with coercion and since they largely hail from Punjab, they have only succeeded in instilling hatred in the smaller provinces against it. While media and urban middleclass of Pakistan have been lynching the PPP government at the top of their voices, the party actually deserves praise at least on provincial autonomy front.

57 Comments

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57 responses to “Political Islam, Politics of Identity, Ethnic Nationalism and the Centralized State

  1. Mnoor

    A much needed reality check about the composition of Pakistan.

    The ethnic divisions existed long before partition, though they were not toxic. With even basic foresight the leaders should have opted for provincial autonomy from the start. But somehow the discussion on autonomy or confederation became a sign of unpatriotism, and now things have progressed to the worse. However, it has to be realized that greater provincial autonomy is perhaps the only way remaining.

    I would also like to point out that the centerist form of government not just benefit Punjab, though by virtue of its population Punjab was a natural beneficiary, the Mohajir community also benefitted from this policy. Whatever the current Mohajir leaders may say today, it is a fact that in a confederation form of governement, Mohajirs would have been limited to only few cities and not been able to establish themselves across Pakistan, like they have.

  2. Raza Raja

    @ Mnoor

    yes Mohajirs have historically benefited a lot from it. In fact till 1970s it was Mohajir-Punjab combined dominance. It was in 1970s during ZAB’s time that Mohajir’s began to lose their priviliges and not surprisingly this resulted in their own distinct identity.
    This identity was not present before 1970s and Mohajir ciommunity used to actually have securalized version of islamic identity. However gradual phasing away of their privilges resulted in rise of different nationalism.

  3. There are so many excellent points made that one has to pick and choose. To take merely the first point in order of priority – there are so many others – the moment Pakistan and India were formed, the Two Nation Theory showed itself as being inadequate, and merely a special case of a larger paradigm. As the author has very fairly pointed out, there were even then in those heady days of the first formation of Pakistan several traits which defined identity, not just one, not just religion, but ethnicity and language as well.

    In the case of Pakistan, the narrative tells us, the authorities tried to brush aside the existing and parallel narrations of identity, language and ethnic identity, by using the broad brush of religious identity. This was ironic at one level, perverse in many ways at another level.

    It was ironic because it was the precursor of a strong, centralising policy, dramatically different from the original concept of Jinnah that the homelands should have had all the power, and that the centre should have had only Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications. There are those who will argue that this structure was necessary as long as there were three homelands, and as long as the overall architecture was that of the three homelands; the moment the original plan collapsed, and a partitioned British India became a reality, the concept of a weak centre and strong states also became obsolete. In this view, without a formal declaration of intent, there was a change in thinking regarding the administration, and the earlier proposals were discarded, presumably on the grounds that since both homelands grouped into one nation-state were now part of one integrated state, there was no need for safeguards for Muslims by keeping the centre weak and unable to impose majoritarian rule on the minorities. When the majority had been removed from the scene, this logic goes, where was the question of a weak centre.

    As the author goes on to show, this strong centre that came in almost unheralded and unsung was actually at the root of much that happened later to the detriment of the state of Pakistan. This strong centrist policy favoured one province over the others; it disfavoured one of the remainder in a truly horrific way, and ultimately led to the secession of that left-out and therefore aggrieved province, and it left the others less than fully and wholly committed to the state throughout its history.

    In contrast, a pragmatic and accommodative government next door got rid of some of the linguistic and ethnic problems by forming the country into linguistic blocs. By doing so, it released linguistic chauvinism, and it released other forces seeking their identity, which had lain hidden under the strong urge to seek linguistic identity in those first nine years.

    The point is that such a solution was available to Pakistan, in fact, was far more conveniently available to Pakistan, given the well-gathered up provinces that were evolved. It already had such linguistically coherent provinces in the making, ignoring for the moment minorities of ethnicity and language in every province; it therefore had little to do to solve this problem. Unfortunately, they did not play to trumps, a bridge player’s first lesson.

    Even today, it does not seem to be too late to slake the ethnic and linguistic drive within the state, but that would take a degree of political will and courage and a fearless confidence in the future which one awaits eternally.

  4. Raza Raja

    @bonobashi

    “In contrast, a pragmatic and accommodative government next door got rid of some of the linguistic and ethnic problems by forming the country into linguistic blocs. By doing so, it released linguistic chauvinism, and it released other forces seeking their identity, which had lain hidden under the strong urge to seek linguistic identity in those first nine years. ”

    That is brilliantly put and says it all.

  5. Its a very honest attempt to the issues regarding ethnic nationalism as today we have very alarming situation in Balochistan, moderate forces are being targeted by the state as well as by the hardcore militant elements too. Political activists are abducted and disappeared. People from other ethnic groups especially Punjabis are targeted all over the province.

    Its the time the state and the security establishment should review their way of dealing issues. Thanks to you for changing the monotony at PTH. Its the time for secular forces to come in clear terms to support the sane voices in Balochistan and Pakhtunkhwa. Check out Gulmina Bilal Ahmed, Daud Khattak, Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur articles in Dailytimes, and Malik Siraj Akbar at The Balochhal newspaper, as proper representations of the voices from both the provinces will atleast address their feelings of deprivation

  6. Ali Abbas

    Raza, overall a brave, clear and whollistic account. Good one. I appreciate your comment as well wrt MQM. Spot on!

  7. Raza

    Call it coincidence but I wrote a similar article just a couple of days ago arguing for greater autonomy for the Indian states and a very small role for the centre. You could find it on my blog.

    You are absolutely right in saying that we tend to look at ethnic diversity as a threat to national unity. In my opinion, exactly the opposite of it is true.

    I look at the EU and wonder why independent nations fall over each other to join the union whilst integral parts of our respective countries seek to break away? And whichever way you look at it, the answer is in the balance between greater autonomy and a stronger economy.

    Thanks for this interesting piece of writing. Enjoyed it.

    Cheers!
    AD

  8. YLH

    I am a little surprised that the article in question is being described as a break from “monotony” of PTH by none other than Ali Arqam. One cannot help it if one imagines a monotony that is just not there.

    This article represents in many ways the “consensus position” of PTH editors… especially mine.

    From day 1 on this website and others I have argued that the over-arching Muslim identity was deployed by the League post 1940 to rein in the intensely parochial and independent minded ethnic identities that ought to be accomodated in multiple identities framework under a secular constitution… or else Pakistan would continue to be bogged down.

    So perhaps people should have a holistic view of what is actually being argued.

  9. AZW

    Raza:

    Spot on. Thanks for writing our exact feelings here.

    Pakistan’s treatment of the Balochistan issue is a grim throwback to its dealings with the massive discontent in East Pakistan. Anyone who believes that some sort of Pakistan identity can be magically imposed upon the mix of people who live in Pakistan has learnt nothing from this failed approach that Pakistan has tried again and again. Balochistan is simmering with anger against a strong center that is perceived to be taking their rights away.

    If today we decide to question Balochistan dissent as right or wrong based on a religio-Pakistani nationalist frame of thought, we will make the exact same mistake that the Congress did in the 1940s and the West Pakistan made in 1970. As Raza points out, nationalism can be defined almost exclusively in the context of injustice. Once the identities are threatened, the resulting movements take life of their own. They even go beyond the control of the majority dissenting parties, as the perception of injustice and of being dominated starts overriding even the more rational demands of the separatists. Quell these movements by military means and we have an almost guaranteed flare-up in the movement, with violence becoming an integral part of the independence movements. They would either end with massive loss of lives (that will be contested as genocide in the future history books), or an eventual separation.

    It is time that Pakistan start seriously catering to the decentralized structure that three provinces are clamouring for; one of them more loudly than the other two. At some point, a heavy handed policy towards Balochistan separation would result in situation going completely out of control. You can then blame the separatists as much as you want; it will be the strong center driven ideology, originating mostly out of middle class Punjabi and Mohajir living rooms, that will be the culprit, yet again.

  10. This write-up by Raja Raza is well done and represents a commendable insight into the reality as well as Realty of servitude and goods “governance” that have ruthlessly dominated since the facial facade-end of the Raj. However, practically-yhearning Punjab is not to be entirely blamed for the ensuing fiasco… the Punjabis, sui generis and non sequitur have been thoroughly systemically abused / bruised by The Light-Brown Saabs and Salmalucchi memsaabs who are of semi punjabi ethnicity but hold several passports of convenience. So depressed are non-U or non-Sloane Punjabis that they keep themselves busy by pulling each others legs and maligning merit wholesale. Since Punjabis are, numerically in a majority (which is regarded as very sexy in a democracy), nobody could care less – – their abuse and misuse is rampant and ubiquitous in deeds.

    I recall a story .. I was at the United Nations Secretariat in 1966-67 and had known the legen dary lawyer, Janab A.K. Brohi for several years … he would visit with me often while on visiting scholar trips to the UN. Once I introduced Brohi Sahib to a Sindhi docxtor friend of mine. They had never met before, but within seconds there was better instant-rapport vibes visible between the two of them. I had taken both to dinner and felt like a stranger from Some StrangeLand, sort of intruding a good dinner.
    Punjabis are the l.east favoured as a class amongst the Es(pronounced Ass)tablishment.

    Not to change the subject .. look at the Kalabagh Hydel Project .. it suffered/fizzled because Kalabagh happens to be within Punjab. Had common sense prevailed, there could be several other dams .. the devastation of present day (currently raging, and more is on the anvil; ahoy!) superfloods could be averted. Of that lemon, lemonade could be extracted plus nedarly 5000G-Plus generation of hydel electricity. Truth of the matter remains that as a Nation we excel in trivia minding. Easy Money is our humbling mangolsuttra, and favourite mantra … it seems.

    Perhaps Raja Raza could suggest some Way Out of the present mess we have been inflicted with against the wishes and fishes expedition of the 4-Rivered but not revered Punjaab;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

  11. Mein Kow-ee jhoth bow-lay-ya?
    Mein K ow-ee Kuffr toe-laya?

    BaRRISTER syyed MOHAMMED jAWAID iqbal jafree OF sLARPORE

  12. Anwar

    AZW “….originating mostly out of middle class Punjabi and Mohajir living rooms, that will be the culprit, yet again.” So true. Both entities are also self-centered, self-serving, and far removed from where the emotions are simmering.

  13. Raza Raja

    @ AZW

    I fully agree and if we do not address the root cause, we will be going towards another show down soon. The time has come to understand that centralization is not the right solution for an ethnically diverse state.

    @ Ashish

    Thanks, I will check that article on your website also. We have very similar views as is clear by host of similar articles

  14. This is a nice post to write, because so many congenial themes and so many congenial authors are all involved in it together.

    Raja’s article is, in fact, close to a consensus position of the discussions at PTH, very nicely articulated.

    Ashish Deodhar expressed delight at the coincidence of his having written a post in which it was precisely the solution of a weak centre and strong components (states? provinces?) was mentioned. From his perspective, it may seem like a coincidence; from another, it seems merely that a similar idea is taking simultaneous root in many, many minds. An idea whose time has come, perhaps.

    In an earlier comment on RHR’s post, it was possible to consider the implications of identity being composed of multiple ‘identifiers’; it may be that these are ranked in our minds in layers, and that the highest layers call for the most urgent action, the lowest layers will make themselves apparent only after all the higher layers are addressed and satisfied.

    Here, we have the issue of decentralisation, or of weak centres and strong parts, raised by Ashish Dewan and Raza Habib Raja, coming up for consideration as a mechanism for addressing second layer identifiers.

    IMHO, this won’t work.

    Decentralisation can work once, not multiple times. Unfortunately, we have a situation where the needs of segments and sections of society have to be addressed not just at two layers, but at multiple layers.

    So we separate out and take our place as states based on religion. Then language issues come to the fore. What are we supposed to do? We can either re-structure states according to languages, and form integral states for each language, at least one per language. Or we can weaken the centre and strengthen the components. How does that assist the identity crisis of a particular linguistic group? It doesn’t.

    Is it then of reservations? In India, we went back to the old method of reservations of which we had left behind in some respects. Now we have the possibility of reservations holding some succour for post-linguistic identities, or para-linguistic identities. So our scheduled castes get a clear mandate for their assured entry into our educational and job systems. And that’s where it ends. Once we have allotted nearly half of the seats, there’s not much to be done as an encore.

    The answers are not glib and easy. With each succeeding layer of identity that comes up for consideration, we tend to hit a new barrier. One by one, the easy answers fall behind, used up to appease one hungry situation after another.

    It may be easier to consider further steps, to address further demands for identity recognition, in a separate post.

  15. Majumdar

    Skeptical mian,

    I fully agree and if we do not address the root cause, we will be going towards another show down soon.

    That will happen only if Sindh and NWFP are discontented enuff. As of now only B’stan seems to be discontented enuff and I am afraid the Baluch will have to lump it. They are too small in number (3%), Pushtoon immigration will reduce them (if not already done so) to a minority in their own province and the Pak Army can easily remove the leadership and flood B’stan with more Punjoo and Pushtoon immigrants.

    Regards

  16. Majumdar

    As far as India is concerned, a weak centre and strong states need not necessarily require a change in constt. The process of political fragmentation with regional parties getting a lion’s share of seats (the result of 2009 with INC close to majority on its own may well be an aberration) will ensure that state of affairs without any constt change.

    Regards

  17. omar

    They find it very hard to change their mindset because a small percentage of the officers are genuine jihadists and a small percentage is more than enough to manipulate a large army when the larger group of morons has no intellectually robust counter-ideology. The way it works is this: Moron A (lets call him Musharraf) is perfectly happy to make suitable changes in the plan when the Americans (whom he admires and whose bullshitters like Kissinger and Nixon he reads at bedtime as if they were world-changing philosophers) tell him that it is in his best interest to do so. But the jihadists (who know his kind very well) whisper in his ear about the unity of the nation and the army and the almighty two-nation theory and the “complex strategic threat from India”, and he has no coherent argument to present in return. The only argument he CAN make, sounds like treason to Islam even to his own ears. He is trapped. They are all trapped in their own labyrinth.
    Some really smart and clever operator can maybe manipulate them to counter the jihadist manipulation, but such people are hard to find. So we will have to slog through a lot of shit before they finally abandon their jihadi children and get to a vision of Pakistan than does not include eternal war with India and “strategic depth” in Afghanistan and beyond.
    And this does not even include the role of Saudi Arabia and the role of irrational primal hatred of their own Indian heritage and the economic benefits of a long slow burn and real ethnic divisions and so on and so forth…
    but dont get me wrong. I am an optimist. I think it will change. It just wont happen as quickly and cleanly as we would like. Instead, they will suffer the one hundred onions AND the one hundred slaps before they finally figure it out and realize that there is more money to be made being Bangladesh than there is in being china or Saudi Arabia or America’s pet bull terrier in the region.

  18. @Majumdar

    To be truthful, you are right, and it doesn’t matter, both at the same time. What I was coming to , in a separate post, was that India found a ‘part’ solution; it broke large states into smaller states.

    This solution is not weakening the centre and strengthening states, it is parallel. It addressed the hill country identity crisis in UP; the forest dweller crisis in MP and in MP. Now tell me why it isn’t very effective.

    @Oman

    That was powerful.

    Swing that hammer, man.

  19. no-communal

    @Ashish
    More autonomy in law enforcement, taxation, and infrastructural development to the states in India? That’s going to solve issues like J&K and Naxalism? Pardon me, Ashish, that’s the craziest idea I have heard in a long time.

    To start with, J&K is the most autonomous state in India. Infact some might argue it is partly that autonomy which has not allowed it to blend with the rest of the country. In comparison, look at Tibet, where already the local population is much more Chinese than ethnic Tibetan. All that is controversial and debatable about J&K, but the point remains that almost a functional autonomy (only not one written on paper) has done precious little for J&K. Your other candidate, Naxals, do not merit a serious discussion here. Naxals do not want a separate state, (the Adivasis already got one, in the name of Jharkhand), they want to overthrow the Indian state altogether. They cherish the deluded dream to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat at the center.

    The autonomy you speak of already exists in India. Law enforcement is a state matter. The central authorities can come only on the request of the states. I, being a Bengali, cannot even speak Hindi, the supposed national language. Last year I was in Tamil Nadu, and I had difficulty finding Zee TV channel, which is, perhaps, more easily available in Pakistan. And autonomy in taxation and infrastructural development? Where does that leave Bihar, Orissa, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, and a host of other states, if they do not get assistance from the center (which, by the way, has to redistribute the revenue collected from the wealthier states)?

    Pakistan’s problems are different. They have no easy correlation with those in India.

  20. @nocommunal

    Many valid questions. But I agree with welfareforall. Let’s not bother about India on PTH. This is a discussion about Pakistan, not India.

    I welcome you to post your comment on IndianLiberals and we could have this discussion there.

    Cheers!
    AD

  21. no-communal

    @Ashish
    Yeah, I already posted that comment on your website and duplicated it here.

  22. Rashid Khan

    Thanks for elaborating the issue. Progress begins with problem identification. State machinery has done its job. Minority ethnicities have been facing mountainous task of reconciling themselves with ‘the nation.’ People from Balochistan, Sindh and Pakhtukhwa feel alienated and finds it extremely difficult to amalgumate in the national sphere. We are yet educate our children about racial discrimnation for till know, it has been accepted as ‘fate.’

    The best we can do at the moment is share it on our social network.

    Ps. There are some wonderful rational and learned commenters at PTH, we need to connect with on our social networks. How do we make it possible.

    Let PTH be interactive with Social Networks. Need is dire.

  23. Raza Raja

    @ Rashid Khan

    Sir I agree that we need net working and also we need to go mainstream to have bigger impact on our society. Such issues have to be discussed there also

  24. Bin Ismail

    Raza Habib Raja:

    “…..Right now as the Pakistan is fighting for its existence and bearing the brunt of its ideological blunder of promoting political Islam to tackle ethnic diversity, the time has come for us to learn our lessons…..”

    Very true and brilliantly put. Not only has the time come for us to learn our lessons – time is running out.

  25. Humanity

    These excellent ideas, need to be turned into action. The language barriers must be bridged to reach out to the citizens.

    “We can look different and overcome our prejudices if we can communicate effectively.

    Language is clearly a fracturing factor in Pakistani perceptions of their identity. Most of the readers of Pakistan’s English newspapers rarely read an Urdu daily. Gone are the days when poets like Faiz could be professors of English but write poetry in Urdu, allowing for an exchange of ideas across social strata that had been defined by language. A few veteran journalists such as Khaled Ahmed have to translate Urdu articles for the ‘Angraizi-walas’ who stumble through an occasional headline in the vernacular press. We are further divided by supremacist views about provincial languages. The only way out is for more Pakistanis to become multilingual at levels of proficiency that allow us to interact with the popular culture of communities across the nation.”

    An excerpt from “Who is a Pakistani?” by Dr. Salim Ali published in The Express Tribune.

  26. It is clear that an Urdu edition of PTH is overdue.

  27. Raza Raja

    @bonobashi

    Yes sir I agree that such discourse has to be taken to the mainsteam also and there language is barrier.

  28. Pingback: Political Islam, Politics of Identity, Ethnic Nationalism and the Centralized State - BlogOn.pk

  29. shiv

    @ bonobashi

    It is clear that an Urdu edition of PTH is overdue.

    There are 10 to 12 milllion Urdu speakers in Pakistan as per Google uncle.

    That compares poorly with about 60 million Punjabi speakers and about 35 million Sindhi speakers.

    Urdu itself was artificially imposed on Pakistan and perhaps the people who are least likely to want democracy in Pakistan, the mohajirs form the biggest chunk of “native” Urdu speakers – but the latter is a guess.

    The mohajirs are a group who ran from “Hindu majority” rule in India. benefited from lack of democracy in Pakistan and once again it is Altaf wotzisname of MQM who wants the army to rule overtly in Pakistan once again.

    It was not for nothing that I used the acronym RAPE for Pakistani English speakers. It is another matter that a similar category exists in India too. If you look at the “native language speakers” in India they are hardly enamoured of alien, western defined Macaulayite concepts of liberalism. They have an ethos and culture that is older than the imposed western ideas of liberalism.

    But they do have their own versions of liberalism not drawn from the western mould. I find it difficult to comment with deep insight on liberalism from an Islamic background – but it is there. It exists and is not identical to western liberalism. Similarly the liberalism that arises from a Hindu ethos is totally different from western ideas of liberalism. (I believe that Hindu society had reached the point of unsustainable libertarianism in the past)

    If you look at liberal Indian Muslims and Hindus you find that their attitudes towards homosexuality, free mixing of men and women and some other social phenomena are more similar to each other and less like western liberalism. You have surely noted the strange coincidence of views of the Shiv Sena and the mullahs of Deoband regarding Valentine’s day.

    This is where my acronym “RAPE” (Rich Anglophone Pakistani Elite) and their Indian equivalent comes in handy. The minute English is your primary language and the anglosphere is your primary source of intellectual input (books, other media) you are fundamentally Macaulayite unless you are able to tap into an Indian ethos. And there is no such thing as “Pakistani ethos”. It is merely “artificially constructed pure Muslim” with denial of India – which is a dead end. As Pakistanis are finding out gradually. The only way to tap into that ethos is to allow the diverse opinions generated by language based differences of viewpoint. Urdu just does not cut if for Pakistan in my view.

    As and aside and at the risk of making a needless revelation – you know that we are both on another list where there is currently an ongoing discussion about how language affects thinking.

  30. @Shiv

    The point of an Urdu version goes well beyond the number of census-registered Mohajir Urdu speakers. If you ask our Pakistani friends, next to the English language media, it is the Urdu media that is followed closely, not by Mohajirs alone, but by the broad mass of Pakistani citizens who do not look solely at English media (meaning that even those who look at both are approachable through the Urdu media just as effectively as through English media).

    The point is all the more telling if we go into the sociological background of those who are not exclusively English readers. If there is to be a broadening of the base of liberals from their present very active but very small numbers, then they have to expand both into the conservative elements of English-speaking society, as well as into the liberal sections of Urdu speaking society. Your point that there is, in fact, no liberal section of Urdu speaking society, and that liberalism is exclusively an attribute of the purely English speaking section of Pakistan needs separate treatment, and it is better to keep a separate post for that.

    So – to reiterate – it is not the census figures that count, it is the fact that once a literate person starts consuming news, he or she does so in various combinations of languages, and this is determined for them to a great extent by sociological background. Even Punjabi-speakers and Sindhi-speakers, to take you up on your two examples, are as likely to get their mainstream news in Urdu as in Punjabi or in Sindhi. A little reflection on media economics will explain to you why this is so.

    More on the classification you have used, not a positive one, the implications of your statement that, outside the Macaulayite classes, there is only a common conservative class ranging across religious affiliations in which the different religious groups echo each other in social values and beliefs, and your assertion, somewhat confusingly slipped in past these, that there is a valid liberal tradition outside the Macaulayite – dare I pun? – pale.

    As for what is happening on the other list, it is in principle interesting – the complexity of the Magyar language and the mental exertions that native Magyar speakers have to go through to speak German or Czech or any Slavic language have been cited frequently as reasons for the superiority of the Magyar intellect. But since my broadband has been cut off, and I am sneaking in time on a totally forbidden facility, a detailed look at what is going on there will have to wait for happier days.

    That list spends too much time confirming dinner engagements to reward regular perusal, thank you very much. I would rather wait for the third common list to tell me what Anglo-Indian dishes and what exotic South East Asian fruit to patronise.

  31. Raza Raja

    @Shiv

    Although Urdu may have been “artificially” imposed but the fact is that it is now the language of the mainstream media and private Urdu channels and Newspapers generally have much wider audience than regional languages.

  32. I rather fancy this sexy new acronym : ‘R.A.P.E.’ … rich anglophile pakistani elite. They are “rich” but only in a perverse and perverted (non)$en$e. Money (Unjust Enrichment) does not render you “rich”. Perhaps the “R” in R.A.P.E. needs to represent and restate something other than dictionary “rich”.

    I know some truly-rich (God bless them sooner than later!!) who are genuinely that but not in snobbish terms of plots, pelf, platitudes patronage, peccadilloes, prostitution, poly-perversions, petcetera, petcetera.

    Syyed Mohammed Jawaid Iqbal Geoffrey of Brighton and LawLawMoses

  33. P.S.

    The intelligentsia in Pakistan are like the proverbial Sitting Bull who after releasing hunks of wisdom declare (Dick Layer):
    “We Have Spoken”.
    Sin Serially:
    Syyed IQbal Geoffrey Camping in LawWhore
    Alumnus of the Marrh Bhunguan Primary School [1947] Sheikhupura District Board Merit Scholarship l947-51

  34. Kaalket

    R for Retarded should suffice and E for Entities instead of Elites which falsly connotes of some kind of living organism.

  35. Kaalket

    Ok, r is for Regressive, A for Arabic, Pakistani and E for Extremist .

  36. hayyer

    This one is for Sid (IQ) Jeffrey. Are you descended from one H. Hatter?

  37. no-communal

    P.S.
    “The intelligentsia in Pakistan are like the proverbial Sitting Bull who after releasing hunks of wisdom declare (Dick Layer):
    “We Have Spoken”.
    Sin Serially:
    Syyed IQbal Geoffrey Camping in LawWhore
    Alumnus of the Marrh Bhunguan Primary School [1947] Sheikhupura District Board Merit Scholarship l947-51”

    Barrister Sb,
    This last post is a true literary gem.

  38. Bin Ismail

    @ bonobashi (September 4, 2010 at 9:45 pm)

    “…..it is not the census figures that count, it is the fact that once a literate person starts consuming news, he or she does so in various combinations of languages, and this is determined for them to a great extent by sociological background…..”

    Very true and appropriately said.

  39. This refers to the 12-Midnight comment by one “Hayyer”.

    Here is my response.
    know: I traceably descend from Holy Prophet Mohammed and Hazrat Ali. I have the wherewithal and bailiwick to sign my name as I please.

    i AM NOT AN ANonYMOUS OR SCARED NOBODY.
    It was St. John who enlightened the mankind 200o years ago: “Truth Shall Make You (Ja)Free!”
    I have never engaged in hypocrisy, sycophancy or catering cutlery (chamcha-girii) or Tehka-Chummi (TC).
    CID MOHAMMED JAWAID IQBAL JEFFREY OF SLARPORE
    “Truth Shall Make You (Ja) free.
    CID MOHAMMED JAWAID IQBAL JEFFREY

  40. DN

    The present govt ahould b lauded fr its efforts like the NFC and the Balochistan Package. However, it is nt possible to divide the country to cater to all the ethnic groups like the southern Punjab or dividing KP

  41. Samachar

    What devoured glamorous Pakistan?

    Vir Sanghvi
    Express News Service
    First Published : 05 Sep 2010 11:12:00 PM IST
    Last Updated : 05 Sep 2010 12:42:21 AM IST

    I wrote, a few weeks ago, about how much the attitude to Indians had changed in the West. Once we were regarded as losers, people who inhabited a desperately poor country, continually ravaged by famine or drought, incapable of making a single world-class product, and condemned to live forever on foreign aid. Now, we have the world’s respect and, more tellingly, the West’s envy as more and more jobs are Bangalored away from their high-cost economies and handed over to Indians who perform much better for less money.

    That piece was prompted by a visit to London. This one too has been inspired by a trip abroad and by saturation coverage of the Pakistani cricket scandal in the press and on global TV channels. But my concern this week is not with how the West sees India.

    It is with the transformation of the image of the global Pakistani.

    I was at school and university in England in the Seventies and lived in London in the early 1980s. This was a time when Pakistan was regarded — hard as this may to believe now — as being impossibly glamorous. The star of my first term at Oxford was Benazir Bhutto. In my second term, she became president of the union and was the toast of Oxford. Her father was then prime minister of Pakistan and lucky students vied for the opportunity to visit Karachi or Islamabad as guests of the Bhuttos. They came back with stories of unbelievable hospitality and spoke knowledgeably about Pakistan’s feudal structure, about landowners like the Bhuttos, about an autocracy that had reigned for centuries etc.

    Even on the other side of the ideological divide, Pakistan was all too visible. He had come down from Oxford nearly eight years before, but a former president of the union, the charismatic Trotskyite Tariq Ali was still the sort of chap who made English girls swoon. For her first debate as president of the Oxford Union, Benazir asked Tariq Ali to speak. He agreed but then, rather inconveniently, he was detained by the police on a visit to Pakistan. No matter. He phoned Benazir who spoke to daddy and — hey presto! — Tariq was out of jail and on a plane to England. Pakistan was that kind of country, the British chortled delightedly.

    In those days, us poor Indians hardly ever got a look in. The Pakistanis were dashing, far richer (they spent in a week what we spent in the whole term), always going off to chic parties or nightclubs in London and charming the pants off the British (often, quite literally).

    In that era, the Arabs had just emerged on the world stage (following the massive oil-price hikes of 1973/4) and the Pakistanis were almost proprietorial about them. A Pakistani graduate student at my college, even affected Arab dress from time to time and bragged that he had taught Arabs how to fly planes.

    My college-mate was merely reprising Z A Bhutto’s philosophy: the Arabs were rich but they were camel drivers. They needed Pakistanis to run the world for them and to teach them Western ways. It was this sort of thinking that led to the creation of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), the first global Third World bank, run by Pakistanis with Arab money. For most of the 1980s, BCCI was staffed by sharply dressed young Pakistanis who entertained at London (and New York’s) best restaurants, hit the casinos after dinner and talked casually about multi-million dollar deals.

    Their flamboyant lifestyle was matched by other rich Pakistanis. In his autobiography, Marco Pierre White, the first of the British super-chefs (he was the original bad boy and Gordon Ramsay worked for him), talks about the Pakistanis who were his first regulars. Michel Roux, then England’s top chef (three Michelin stars) would fly out to Pakistan to cook at private parties thrown by wealthy individuals. In the late 1980s, a friend of mine went to dinner in Pakistan and was startled to be asked to guess the vintages of three different bottles of Mouton Rothschild, one of the world’s most expensive wines.

    In that era, Indians knew absolutely nothing about wine or French food and the few Indian millionaires who vacationed in London were vegetarians.

    Pakistanis were sex symbols too. The first international cricketing stud was Imran Khan (who finished at Oxford the term before I got there) and his sex appeal was so legendary that even Benazir joked about it. Told that Gen Zia-ul-Haq called him the ‘Lion of the Punjab,” Benazir said, “Yes but Zia pronounces “Lion as ‘Loin’ and this is appropriate.” Years later when Imran spoke about his love for Pakistan, a British columnist sneered, “His heart may be in Pakistan but his loins are in the King’s Road” referring to a trendy (and expensive) London area.

    Even Pakistan’s millionaires were more glamorous than ours. In the Eighties when the Hinduja brothers (“we are strictly vegetarian”) first emerged in London, the Pakistanis stole the show with such flamboyant high-profile millionaires in Mahmud Sipra who financed feature films and kept a big yacht in the South of France.

    So what went wrong?

    It’s hard to pin point any single reason but I can think of several contributing factors.

    First of all, much of the Pakistani profile was based on flash and fraud. BCCI collapsed amidst allegations that it was a scamster’s bank. Mahmud Sipra left England with the Fraud Squad in hot pursuit even as he

    declared his innocence from beyond Scotland Yard’s jurisdiction. Many big-spending Paksitanis turned out to be heroin smugglers.

    Secondly, Indian democracy came to our rescue. The Brits who bragged about Bhutto hospitality and the Pakistan aristocracy missed the obvious point: this was a deeply unequal and therefore unstable society. When Bhutto rigged an election, this led to his downfall.

    Thirdly, Pakistan signed its own death warrant by trying to out-Arab the Arabs with a policy of Islamisation. This reached its peak under General Zia who declared a jihad against the Russians in Afghanistan and invited Arabs such as Osama bin Laden to come to Pakistan to fight the holy war. Ultimately, fundamentalist Islam devoured what was left of glamorous Pakistan.

    Fourthly, the world just moved on. Flash can only get you so far. In the end it is substance that counts. And plodding, boring India came up with the substance.

    It is hard to think, when you look at today’s Pakistan team, that Pakistani cricketers were such sex symbols in India in the 1980s that Imran Khan was able to brag to an interviewer “Indian actresses are chickens. They just want to get laid” (In all fairness, Imran later said he had been misquoted.)

    Get laid by today’s team? You must be joking.

    Even the Pakistani playboys who are still around no longer seem exciting or glamorous. Poor Imran just looks tired. And the rest look like Asif Zardari — pretty much the archetypal glamorous Pakistani of the Eighties — though perhaps not as disgustingly sleazy.

    Of all these factors, two remain the most important. A nation created on the basis of Islam was destroyed by too much Islam. And a nation dedicated to democracy flourished because of too much democracy.

  42. Gorki

    Vir Sanghvi has been called a serious and thoughtful journalist by a friend whose opinion I usually respect.
    However the above piece is petty and very shallow and thus unworthy of a serious journalist.

  43. Raza Raja

    Why has this article of Vir Sanghvi pasted here? It is some what irrelevant

  44. @Raza Raja

    Very simple. Samachar had nothing to say, and thought that Vir Sanghvi said it better than he.

  45. Raza Raja

    @Vajra

    hahaha that was once again witty…Yes I really do find it amazing that irrelevant articles or comments are posted to make irrelevant points.

  46. On the contrary the analyses by Sanghavi/ SAMACHAR deserve serious consideration as well as substantive soul-searching. We must call a spade a shovel, and face the music upfront without vexatious dillydallying and facile excuse-mongering blaming everythink+everything upon The Hidden or Foreign Hand. The foreign Hand has a finger for our failures!

    No use crying over spilt (Frico) milk or concerningblack-marketing of cinema-tickets in Karachi or the serial Ittefaq Fiascos. Pakistan has suffered immeasurably at the hands of some 420 nouveau-riche filthy-‘rich’ families (inter-related by marriage or through DNA – – to wit, their chauffeurs are inter-related) who have brutally plundered Packistan mercilessly since we fell on our National face in Dacca [1971].
    Over $200 BILLIONS have been siphoned off of Pakistan (to offshore tax havens and black moneys Nest Eggs) since then, sans any transparency and withOUT accountability or sunshine-in-sight.
    In Pakistan Abusing Merit is the only game in whioch our pompous and perverted Elite excel. It is Flash and Falsehoods-Galore!

    Being specific … as Straw Example, Jhelum (Punjab) produced two brilliant+ honest-to-goodness Indian Prime Ministers, DDr Manmohan Singh and Inder Gujral-ji .. the same Jhelum Induced Hajji Iftikhar Hussain Choudhurry, BA LLB. I arranged a Boston Tea Party for the later at Lahore High Court, but alas! he could not attend fearing Egg Sandwiches/sand-witching.

    The Indian PM owns seven kurtas and six shirts and feels no inferiority-complex travelling around on an indigenously-manufactured 1980’s Ambassador automobile. Contrast that with our Gillani MahaRaj Multanikar. He, begging-bowls-in-hands, now stays misanthropically in Royal Suites of foreign hotels and pays his ‘Savile Row’ clothing through his Hotel bills and enterainment expenses.

    Please calibrate the recent News of the World Cricket Match Fixing Scandal. All, under suspicion of wrongdoing, should be subjected to Lie Detection Tests (I proposed and drafted Art 164 of the Law of Evidence which authorises polygraph and other modern deception-detection testing). Truth is tedious, bitter, no butter but it is BETTER.

    Finally, I must confess that I am no typist (I typed detailed answers, these disappeared and I can’t repeat myself except I am fetishly-hung on “deep-pocket” as an expression against my beloved-nemeses).

    I tell my postgraduate students of The Iqbal Geoffrey University of Art Criticism that aesthETHICS (expression includes Justice) in Packistan is already seriously unwell, and well.. err.. almost-dead; please! don’t facilitate/expedite its burial/final rites by your Legerdemains.

    Now I don’t want to be diluged with outpourings of requests for admission to this half-century old elitist university. Admission is not open; it is strictly by invitation only. All forms of solicitation and formats of sycophancy are rigidly forbidden.

    The prominent University has only conferred two degrees since 1950. One was in the arts and Khalid Hasan humbly protested vehemently (of no avail). The other, an LL.B. Magna cum Laude was conferred last year upon Najam Sethi, MA (Cantab), Hilale Imtiaz. The Board of Regents had humbly recommended a Master of Laws degree, but I being democratic had to take into consideration the residual aspects of nepotism .. in that he is distantly related to me (unbeknownst to him).

    CONCLUSION:

    Now I must tell you a story. In 2009 I was bi-cycling to visit with The Right Hon’ble Dr A.Q. Khan … lot of media had gathered in E-7 (around Hill View Road, Islamabad). Some very-learnid ISI highups in plain-clothing lurking. I was tempted to ask an impressed Colonel: “Hi! When are you conferring the Nishane Haider upon me?”. He was taken-back but rebutted: “As soon as you are dead!”. I was surprised at his quick-wittedness, yet shot back” “Then shoot me right now (sothat I too can taste a bit of Nepotism) !!” This left him speechless! Ideas never die, they are passed over and revive themselves.

    Returning to Lahore I lodged a Writ at the Lahore high Court that dead-people enjoy no Fundamental Rights and, “THEREFORE” … two Nishane Haider be ordered conferred upon Jafree. (Fundamentally), adding the second Nishane Haider as Indemnity Costs for filing the Writ. The Lahore High Court realizes that dead-people indeed do not retain nor contain any FR. Deadbodies belong all .. to God.

    (‘Que Sera Sera’ is impossible. Law accepts the impossible but not the unreasonable). The grave mess we are in is unreasonable. When you have no towel left to throw. Go Naked! Dont Sit Back and Enjoy It. Over and Ouch!!

  47. Re Raja Jii on Irrelevance:

    ‘What is meaningless makes sense; what is senseless has meanings and what is irrelevant deserves reverence’, Professor Syyed Iqbal Geoffrey brandishing on Art Criticism at the Fogg Art Museum, Harvard University, ‘Realty is not reality’.

    “Medium is the Massage” : Professor Marshall McLuhan, “Geoffrey is rich, apropos and delightful” (McGill University) 1967

    ” Art expands to abolish Mediocrity striving to undo it”,Professor Lawrence Peter (University of Southern California)

  48. Hayyer

    Gorki,
    I used some other adjective for Sanghvi, neither serious nor thoughtful.

  49. Farukh Sarwar

    It is quite evident that some forces are trying hard to instill the Army to stage another coupe, but it shouldn’t happen due to all of the reasons that the author has explained.

  50. Hayyer

    Ik Baat Jeff Rey:
    Even as a prophetic decadent you may have the Godness to be acquainted with one H. hatter presumably.

  51. Gorki

    Dear Hayyer

    I was writing from memory; perhaps I was mistaken.
    Anyway the above seems slightly shrill and very shallow. My opinion of him has gone down further….

  52. The salutary nuisance remains that our humourless ill-litter-at-tea are no Sanskirit scholars. These are just a retarded Fot, Lucked-up, and by catcalling Fyallpur as Laisalabad, they pretend (begging-bowls-in-hands!!!) that they have lounded a new Metropolis. Rubbish!

    Nonetheless, I send my beloved Lans (their G-spot is that art gallery in Model Town run by semi-illiterate doyenne, rather dawein) Fove and wish them a (!) happy Eid.

    (Hi-Hi for Haier !)

  53. Bin Ismail

    Going back to the topic “Political Islam, Politics of Identity, Ethnic Nationalism and the Centralized State”, Pakistan needs to make serious amendments – referring to amending of ways. Pakistan needs to simultaneously de-politicize Islam and secularize its politics. Pakistan needs to let its identity evolve and take shape more naturally, instead of indulging in a quest for an artificial identity. Instead of irrationally promoting an ethnic nationalism in a multi-ethnic country, a nationalism based and built on the concept of “homeland” would, I believe prove more viable. The centralized state will work only if it is an inclusive state. In short, a lot needs to be done.

  54. Ethno-centric nonsense has been promoted in Pakistan by the very smug do-gooders who have no interest in or affection for pakistan and no love lost for Islam. Pakistan, they thimk (!) has its future niched in its yesterdays.

    Nawaz SharrReef + Company has siphoned off and transferred all his ill-gotten wealth overseas. Two sons are settled abroad collecting brownie points for UK Citizenship for the rest of the cabal +. The House of Ittefaq (so much for the entrepreneurial ability of the SharrReefs) is bankrupt. 20 years ago it was being commercially touted as the most successful Asian congrelomate. Zardari Ji boasted that if Sindh can amas $1 Billion re flood relief; he will give Sindh another $10 billion. Wow! such generosity. An Urdu saying: Na Noe Munn Tail Hoe Ga, Na Radha Nacchay Gi.

    KHAPPAY PAKISTAN (?) INDEED. TAKE PITY ON IT, YEH TOW AAB BAHUT KHAPP GAY-YA HAEY.

    Our patriotic bigwigs carry and behold many nationalities (there are citizenships on sale by several countries, in West Indies, South America, former Soviet Russia for cold cash); Pakistan has the cheapest , most maligned passport on earth. Half of our retired federal secretaries, after looting Pakistan, are settled abroad. Justice is fast becoming virtually extinct. Great debates are ragging in Packlistan while it is being mercilessly-looted by its nouveau riche Elite. It is scumtuous!

    No bona fide need exists to breastbeat about Islam, really, we never had any democracy or adherance to Islam for the Rawpublic of Pakistan.

  55. S.K.SHAH

    All that you say is true but Islam itself is a divisive force. It creates a separatist mentality which absolutely Arabic. A muslim is nothing but an Arab copy . He calls his in arabic name, writes in arabic script which he may call urdu in India and Jawi in Malaysia but it is the same Hindi and Malay language written in Arabic script. His festivals are all arabic. You he has been converted to arabic nationalism clothed in the religious bag called Islam. All people stretching from Pak to Morrocco and the rest to the north and south of this line and in south east asia have forgotten their identity and looks at their past with hatred . It was successfull earlier because it was so easy to place the sword on a grown up victim giving him the choice of death to himself and rape and slavery to his women family member or conversion. A converted elder will die in a few decades and with him will die his original identity . The younger generation are indoctrinated in the madrasas and thus in one generation a civilization is wiped out . In the case of India’s North West that is what happened. Pakistan has no right to exist simply because it was stolen from the Hindus. Every dust on this subcontinent speaks of our civilization. That is why Islam is doomed and so is pak andpakis.