Liberal Pakistani Websites and Indian Right Wingers

By Raza Habib Raja

 Liberalism as a philosophy is more inward looking and therefore does not try to blame others for the follies of one’s own nation. Thus it takes a stark divergence from the conservative and ultranationalist philosophies who assume that identity cultivated on the basis of religion, ethnicity, or geographical location is always under threat from outside forces. Therefore liberalism’s natural thrust is towards self introspection and on fostering cooperation with the different ethnicities and nations. This orientation  always bring it into conflict with the ultranationalists who often accuse liberals of being “unpatriotic”, soft and even traitor!

Pak Tea House is one of the liberal website in Pakistan and let me assure you such websites are rare. We are committed to cultivating a spirit of self introspection and are doing our bit to cultivate an atmosphere of tolerance and plurality. Another major objective of Pak Tea House is to promote goodwill towards the foreign countries and particularly those against whom the ultranationalists right-wingers have been whipping hatred and what we believe misunderstanding. India is our neighbour and is also an important stakeholder in this region. But more importantly India and Pakistan share a troublesome history (of course Pakistan is also partly guilty) starting from a violent partition and subsequent wars and proxy wars.

We at Pak Tea House firmly believe that the two neighbours should bury the hatchet and move forward. There are so many issues which are our common issues and we admit that our side has also been guilty of rumor mongering and a state sponsored cultivation of institutionalized hatred of India which was primarily done to ensure integrity of the state and to carve out justification of a large army. For these reasons we are constantly striving to cultivate a favourable image of India.

 However, I regret to say that the behaviour of few (not all) of the Indian commentators is proving to be completely detrimental to our aim. These commentators are just spewing hatred and coming up with various ways to humiliate Pakistanis, which  at least on this site as well as other liberal sites, are largely moderate. The liberal theme of self introspection actually becomes a counterproductive weapon as some of the Indian commentators use the self critical articles by liberal Pakistani authors as an opportunity to mock and ridicule.

 Constant derogatory references to religion are being made. Personally I am not a religious guy but I understand that mocking someone’s religion is not a prudent thing to do. Religion is a part of everyone’s identity. Even Einstein, an atheist, started to proclaim himself as a Jew, when his coreligionists were hounded and prosecuted by the Nazi regime. Mocking Islam will only reinforce conservatism and religious fervour particularly when it is being mocked by those who do not share it.

Apart from this, constant and needless references to “failures” of Pakistan are made and “successes” of India are being touted. Articles about peace are mocked by touting about strength of India’s GDP. I vividly remember some comments boasting of 1.3 trillion dollar economy and being dismissive of any “peace” as India does not need Pakistan for economic purposes.

 This kind of behaviour mirrors the Pakistani rightwing nonsense and in a twisted way strengthens it. After seeing the comments the Pakistani right wingers are often in a position to “justify” their nonsensical hate mongering against India.

Moreover just like Pakistani rightwing brigade which generally spins everything under the sun to levy the blame on RAW and CIA, these Indian right wingers also blame ISI for everything from Mao rebels to Mumbai attacks. Literally each one of them tries to project himself as a foreign policy expert and like a true arm chair theorist comes up with mind boggling spins.

 This behaviour, while being obviously bigoted, also seriously undermines the efforts of Pakistani liberals and successfully paints them as “unpatriotic” in the eyes of normal Pakistanis. Obviously when articles about peace are being mocked in a humiliating tone, the peace makers end up appearing as weak and unpatriotic. The mocking comments become a weapon in the hands of Pakistani right wingers who end up having a citable evidence of Indian hatred.

 Of course one can argue with the “freedom of speech” angle and say that since it is an open forum therefore anything should go. However, every privilege in this world comes with a responsibility. Freedom of speech is a privilege and comes up with a responsibility that it will be used with care and not for mocking as well as insulting others.

 Yes freedom of speech has to prevail and it will prevail. But I can only request that it should be used in a mature manner. Those Indians who are desperate to settle scores of Mumbai attack, frankly Pak Tea House and for that matter any liberal website is not the place or the forum to do so!! If you think that Pakistanis are bigoted and deserve rebuke frankly there are so many Pakistani rightwing sites and your responses will be well placed there.

279 Comments

Filed under India, journalism, Liberal Democratic Pakistan, liberal Pakistan, Pak Tea House

279 responses to “Liberal Pakistani Websites and Indian Right Wingers

  1. navanavonmilita

    My dear Raza Raja,

    I can understand your pain and anguish. However I would like to quote following popular saying in America:

    Sticks and stones may break my bones (but words will never hurt me).

    something that you say which means that people cannot hurt you with bad things they say or write about you Criticism has never bothered me. Sticks and stones may break my bones, and all that.

    You should not be so frail, “naajuk,” as to start crying on stuff that is hurled at PTH.

    When one, whoever that person may be, in the ring, “kushti aakhada,” he should expect some decent drubbing from the opponent.

    At least such a person is ready to play the game.

    Pakistani liberals are not any different from Indian liberals, American liberals or French liberals. They constantly get abuse. The abuse comes from the right wing fundamentalists, religious fanatics, ultra conservatives and it may sound funny to you but it is a fact, from their own kind for not being sufficieltly liberal in their opinion.

    My personal case about being a thorn in India’s ultra conservatives is worth mentioning.

    I received verbal abuse on a daily basis. My sister, mother was violated by the critics and such favorite animals as dogs, donkeys, and lepers.

    I was branded as anti-Indian and placed on a “Hindu hit list.

    My house location, my telephone number, my office location, my family’s names and particulars were -e-mailed by their chian-mailing campaigns.

    I was alleged as a child molester and government of USA was asked to follow me.

    The local police, actually knocked on my door to nvestigate.

    When I showed them my detractors’ verbal abuse against me and the proof that they were Indian expatriates residing in America, some even obtaining American nationality, he was bit amused.

    His kind reply was the one I quoted above.

    Stay cool. The criticism may come and criticism may go, PTH must go on.

    Peace.

    http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/

    …and I am Sid Harth

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  3. DAsghar

    Raza Bhai,

    You know my position on this one as both you and I have gone through some real painstaking back and forth with at least the right wingers of Pakistani sides and occasionally with the Indian side on another forum.

    I second your comments and hope that our brethren from both sides will take your article as a positive and demonstrate their first rate education by showing a responsible behavior. If educated and enlightened folks stoop to the level of the uneducated and illiterate then what do we expect. Yes every freedom requires responsibility. Civility and constructive dialogue should be the order of the day, every day.

  4. Raza Raja

    @navanavonmilita

    Thanks Sir, i am not being frail here but merely pointing out to ill effects of hate mongering.

    This kind of negativity plays right into the hands of right wingers of this side of the border.

    I know PTH will go on and I have mentioned at the end also that we will stay committed to free speech. But one can exercise it with some responsibility

  5. Raza Raja

    @ Dasghar Bhai

    Well sir you know from chowk also….the likes of hate mongers from both the sides….

  6. Raju Bhai

    @Raza Raja

    I agree with you, that one need not use hate speech, but I seriously have a problem with ‘Pakistani Liberals’ and to some extent with ‘Indian Liberals’ as well.

    There are certain tools that Liberals often use – one of them is to push anybody who does not agree with them into the other corner, by branding them right-wingers and extremists. Just like extremists on the right, the liberals too are extremists, as they want purity in their liberal dogma, and those who do not agree, are marked as fanatics.

    This has to stop. Of course, I know, that liberals make such an excessive use of the tool of character assassinations, that it has become a kind of reflex, and would not be easy to readjust, but it should be done.

    Secondly, Pakistani Liberals seek out Indian Liberals. Of these ‘Indian Liberals’ there are certain criteria for admission. They can be Muslims or Hindu atheists. Pakistani Liberals still retain their sense of Muslim Chauvinism, that they have been raised with, and it is very difficult for them to break out of it. There is an aversion amongst the Pakistani Liberals to practicing Hindus, to Hindus who feel comfortable in identifying themselves with many a thousand years of tradition, to even cultural Hindus, to proud Hindus.

    As such the Pakistani Liberals can only go so far as to befriend some Marxists or some atheist Hindus. It is as if going beyond that is haraam. Mostly the Indian Muslims have gotten over it, but in Pakistan it is different.

    This is counter-productive because a friendship with a thin layer of Indian society will not get Pakistan very far. Pakistanis would have to broad-base their efforts. Pakistani Liberals should approach avowed Hindus, and feel comfortable with them, if they hope to bring peace.

    Thirdly I have seen a propensity among so-called Pakistani Liberals to try to find mirror images of Pakistani problems in India, and stamp some Indian phenomenon as complimentary to something Pakistani. If Pakistan has terrorist groups, then India too would be having some. If Pakistan has some social problems, then India should also be having something similar. That creates unnecessary demonization of some Indian institutions and organizations. I am referring to terming RSS, etc. as equivalent to the various terrorist organizations.

    This will backfire, and Pakistani Liberals will get no peace from India. The two countries have had different trajectories of social development, the majority religions are also not mirror images of the other, so there will be differences here as well. So too much effort to draw similarities would land one in the soup without logic.

    4) Another behavior that Pakistani Liberals display is to take the works of Western Liberals as akin to their own personal Qu’ran. There are many thinkers in the sub-continent and their thinking should also be looked at. India is slowly but surely getting out of the colonial mindset, that if American scholars say it, then it must be true.

    JMTs

    5)

  7. pankaj

    Respected Raza Sir,
    I would like to say that , here at Pakistan Tea house articles written about Pakistan are liberal
    in religious sense only.

    The articles do speak of a need for moderate Islam in Pakistan.

    When it comes to dissecting and analysing Pakistan’s economic and social problems ,India is BLAMED quite LIBERALLY.

    The narrative is like this:
    Because India occupied kashmir ,pakistan had to wage wars and waste resources.

    Then when war failed Pakistan was under a “RELIGIOUS ” duty to liberate Kashmir.

    SO Pakistan created EXTREMISM , and MILITANCY.

    So whatever Pakistan is today it is because of India”

    This is the narrative at PTH

    So when India is blamed unfairly,Indians tend to retaliate .

  8. Vijay Goel

    Pyar Dil me hona chahiye Lafzon me nahi,
    Aur Narazgi Lafzon me honi chahiye Dil me nahi

  9. YLH

    Pankaj mian,

    You are obviously not gifted with English comprehension. Where have we spoken about moderate Islam alone? We have called for – and this is PTH’s official policy- a separation of church and state.

    Raza…

    Reasoning with assholes is a pointless exercise.
    My own feeling is that under the thin veneer, there is nothing liberal about Indians- other than a few rare exceptions… especially those sewer rats who show up here in their hordes from chowk.com.

    One such idiot declared that 70% of the articles are about partition. Nonsense. Even a cursory glance can show that about 80% of the stuff here is other than partition.

    Secondly – we are much more liberal than any Indian site out there by a long shot.

    We have taken up the cause non-Muslims, we have questioned dogma, we have openly and unwaveringly called for a separation 0f church and state, we have questioned the state’s obsession with war… we have attacked the judges… we have attacked the army and ISI… we have stood up for the rights of the dispossessed and the marginalized sections of Pakistani society… especially non-Muslims…

    This obviously bothers these right wing Indian arseholes…. so they set a different standard. Not only must we take up liberal causes… we must also accept unquestioningly the Indian point of view… we must unquestioningly without debate accept that partition was a mistake and the creation of Pakistan was “not liberal”… we must take the Indian view on Kashmir and the world…. why? Well… we don’t want a certificate from right wing Indian arseholes on liberalism.

    So this was an unnecessary article. I quite enjoy lighting fires in right wing Indian dhotis… which makes them swarming here like flies that they are.

  10. Raza Raja

    @ Pankaj

    I think this is nothing but misrepresentation of the facts. There are several articles which have stressed on the need of self introspection and also peace with India. Recently Raza Rumi has written a string of articles on that.

    Any ways I have pointed out the issue and one just needs to go through the comments to confirm what I have written.

    Given the level of education, some of the comments are astonishing.

    And the irony is that such comments are appearing on a website which by any standard is NOT anti Indian.

    Here we are trying to cultivate a good image of India and stressign on self introspection.

  11. YLH

    Raza

    You don’t understand. These guys won’t be happy till we capitulate and accept their point of view on everything.

    So no point talking to these fools.

  12. Raza Raja

    yasser yaar one has to try…but I do agree with some of them frankly there is no hope but i beleive with majority there is.

    We have some very good commentators like Vajra also who talk sense and with a lot of maturity.

    Even Shiv, despite the fact he may not be pro pakistan but at least talks in an intelligent way and comes up with thought provoking points

  13. i thought of writing such a piece for some time now.

    Most crackpot Indians simply dont understand that they are HELPING INDIA’S ENEMIES by polluting liberal Pakistani blogs.

    Blogs like Pak Tea House must be supported WHOLE HEARTEDLY by all of us.

    Guys like YLH and Raza Rumi and others are doing a spectacular job of promoting liberal values and a liberal culture through blogging. They are constantly fighting a “war of Ideas” against religious extremism. A liberal secular progressive Pakistan is their aim which is in India’s supreme national Interest.

    WE GOTTA SUPPORT THEM!!!!

    INDIANS STOP POLLUTING PAKISTANI LIBERAL BLOGS!!!!

  14. I mourn the fact that there is a complete absence of a TRULY LIBERAL BLOG in Indian blogosphere….with very very very rare exceptions.

  15. SoB

    Punditjee maybe its because liberalism and secularism is a way of life for most Indians whose value need not be debated. There are hardly and Indian blogs debating weather sun rises in east or west😉

    And if you are conflating liberalism with Marxism, then you will find plenty of pinko rags🙂

  16. SoB

    “hardly any”

  17. HUMANIST

    You are right.
    BUT this is the job of MODRATORS to sort this issue.
    some suggestions by me
    1.REGISTER members of PTH LIBERALS and descent conservatives

    2.ONLY REGISTERED MEMBERS should be able to SIGN-IN using a PASSWORD for posting comments and newer posts.

    3.make BASIC RULES OF CONDUCT and ANYONE whether liberal or right winger should be first warned of their specific indescent behaviour and then banned if behaviour persists.

    4.Abusive or rude should be BARRED FROM COMMENTING but NOT FROM VISITING PTH..KEEP YOUR DOORS OPEN.

  18. Raza Raja

    @ Humanist

    As moderators we are doing every bit but some sense of responsibility should prevail in the commentators also. Being educated, and obviously intelligent, responsibility and civic sense has to be shown rather than simple mocking behaviour.
    We have no intention of banning people and that is why I am requesting here!

    It is ok and in fact preferable to disagree with articles but the issue is streching far beyond disagreements here.

  19. @Humanist

    Makes sense, and there are sites like that, but stops intelligent, one-time comment, also spontaneous interjection by people who otherwise would rather ‘lurk’.

    I’d rather that repeat offenders were banned, both of the virulent bigot variety, and the cynical ‘realpolitik’ variety.

    Neither set has anything to say, and continue saying it interminably. On being exposed, neither has any sense of remorse, or makes the slightest attempt at reviewing their positions.

  20. shiv

    While PTH certainly appears to be unusually liberal, I will repeat what i said a few weeks ago.

    It is entirely possible for a conservative core to allow a facade of liberalism and liberal debate to exist by giving space for it in a place where it will make no difference to basic attitudes, but will serve as a poster boy of moderation.

    I do not intend to demean PTH but want to point out that there are a plethora of much bandied about references to Pakistani liberalism that only hide some very uncomfortable truths.

    The Pakistan fashion scene and the enactment of “The Vagina monologues” are used again and again and again as a pointer to the idea that liberalism is thriving in Pakistan, which it is not. It is more like a desperate cry for help. The most chilling depiction of a desperate cry for help that I have seen was from Hollywood – the the movie “The Exorcist” in which a girl’s body is occupied by a fearful demon – but the existence of a vestige of the original girl is indicated by a wheal that appears on the skin of the possessed girl that says “Please help me”.

    In short – to use a word I learned from my primer “Learn about Islam in 30 seconds” (By Moshe Singh) – how much of Pakistani liberalism is “taqiyya” and how much is genuine? That becomes easy to assess by posing the most uncomfortable questions.

    PTH is very good and by and large fairly liberal. I almost lose my self and feel sympathetic. But the pretenders are there – and they raise their heads once in a while. but to their defence I must say that some of them may not be pretenders – some of their posts are genuine despite the odd jarring note.

    PTH does not need a certificate from me and this is not intended to be one.

  21. Indian Pundit

    @shiv

    Firstly i believe Pak Tea House is making a HUGE EFFORT at promoting liberal values in Pakistan.

    WE GOTTA RESPECT THAT.

    Secondly , PTH has never claimed that Pakistan is a “liberal country” on the contrary they constantly speakabout the need of liberalism in Pakistan.

    Overall Pak Tea House is a great place for debate , discussion and plurality!

  22. HUMANIST

    @Raza Raja @Vajra
    Agreed..
    @LIBERALS
    INCREASE your level of tolerance.Our critics can be sometimes more useful for our growth.
    @all
    be descent and be sensitivite please.Whether liberal or conservative we all should have one goal.
    That is
    PEACE

  23. HUMANIST

    Pardon me 4 spelling mistake..
    be sensitive

  24. @Modra
    “Except for Indians like Dastagir whom Raza rightly recognized as a humanist, the rest of the Indians who come here are just assholes and shameless right wingers.”

    Even though Dastagir is a nice enough fellow…..the fact is he plays that ultimate right-wing card of playing the “Ultimate Victim” and “Ultimate Innocent” cards at the same time!

  25. Rashid Saleem

    Freedom of speech is a right that needs to be used with great responsibility. Someone’s “freedom of speech” should not become an intrusion into someone’s privacy.

  26. @Bade Miya

    ….And while we sort each other out, scumbags like Raju the B laugh their sick heads off at Modra’s sick jokes.

  27. Raju Bhai

    I think the problem is, some, like me, just don’t know what Pakistani Liberals really stand for.

    I can assume, that they do not want Talibanic ideologies to take over Pakistan.

    I can assume, that they are not in favor of tensions with India, at the moment.

    I can assume, that they do not want the image of their country tarnished by news of atrocities on minorities in Pakistan.

    I can assume, that they are pained when the image of Pakistan is sullied by accusations of terrorism from around the world.

    What am I missing?

  28. @”Raju Bhai”

    Presumably your last post was rhetorical in nature, and you don’t really want to know, in which case, good luck and hasta la vista.

    If you do want to know, would you let me try? It’s entirely up to you. I should like to try because it is extremely unlikely that any Pakistani would, for whatever reasons.

  29. Raju

    @Vajra

    It was semi-rhetorical.

    And I would rather like that the Pakistani Liberals write their own manifesto!

  30. Parvez

    Raza, interstate relations are based on relative strength and ability to inflict unacceptable level of pain. Such a situation of balance exists currently. This interaction is neither liberal or conservative. Relations move forward when there is give and take or if you like deal making where both parties benefit. India is inflexible in their position, therefore, I don’t expect any progress in any talks. Liberals do great damage to their position when they take soft approach to relations with India because it is not going to work.
    You can have any Indian friend so long they respect you but civil behavior among Indians is a rare commodity in blogs and I’m saying it from experience.

  31. So be it. You, of course, understand very well that they will seldom or ever respond to agents provocateur, and you are therefore safe in speaking in these lofty tones, in the confidence that you will not be called to order.

    Enjoy yourself.

  32. ramesh

    hi guys,if you cant take the heat dont do the feat,dont tire now,long way to go before you out shine.patience can win over hearts

  33. Raju

    @Vajra

    I think you are right! I am a agent provocateur! What is the use of debate if nobody provokes your thought process.

    I also think it somewhat presumptuous of you to claim that Pakistani Liberals cannot express what they believe in.

    I am not stopping you from trying to answer the query. I just feel that it is for Pakistanis to take a position on that.

  34. Indian

    Liberal Pakistani website is what?

    One that condemns its own politic, leaders! Well, sorry, that’s just not enough!

    If you do not know most Indian media does just that and we are quite used to it. Whereas we need to see your courage when it comes to criticism of religion inspired intolerance which by far is the single most important disease that Pakistan has been inflicted with.

    In India, such religion inspired bias is widely criticized and especially Hindu religion and its practices are roundly berated if they are seen as an impediment to progress and social cohesion. That’s the arena where most Indians like to see your courage. But sadly, it’s just not there. The same goes to your army whose activities seemed to be beyond criticism. Whereas any wrongdoings or anti constitutional activities of the Indian Army are immediately exposed by the Indian media and in the public forums.

    A liberal website is not a one that acknowledges the existence of other cultures (even this to be done in Pakistan is a great effort indeed) that do not subscribe to your religion and god’s. A liberal website is not the one that talks about fringes of destructive forces that plague the country, leaving the centre which too are but anything liberal. Whereas a truly liberal website is one that is beyond the bigotry of religion, culture and race.

    I too I am a person that wades through plenty of websites of Pakistani origin to understand the mental make up of Pakistanis. I do acknowledge that you are indeed different that the average Pakistani output and so is few others.
    But to apply the paint of “liberal” to the average Pakistani websites, even if they are free from the visible Pakistani religion inspired bigotry, is taking it a bit too far.

    To put it shortly, you guys need to grow up, still!!

  35. Raza Raja

    @Indian

    thanks your response is a pathetic demonstration of the need as to why this article was written.

    Thanks a lot!!!!

  36. Raju

    Parvez wrote:

    interstate relations are based on relative strength and ability to inflict unacceptable level of pain.

    That is the definition of interstate relations as per Pakistani dictionary.

    Such a situation of balance exists currently.

    My dear neighbor, that is not the situation currently. Until now, Pakistan has only inflicted an ACCEPTABLE level of pain. India can take a few blows.

    Indian response would be markedly different once the pain becomes UNACCEPTABLE, and then the so called-balance of power would also go down the Indus.

    Just wanted to clarify!

  37. karun

    unnecessary provocation of an article…..

    This behaviour, while being obviously bigoted, also seriously undermines the efforts of Pakistani liberals and successfully paints them as “unpatriotic” in the eyes of normal Pakistanis.

    RazaRaja…

    you have one eye on liberal talk and another on the domestic audience. you want to have the cake and eat it too.

    my advice: please show a little more courage….you are too mindful of your local audience…

  38. karun

    these Indian right wingers also blame ISI for everything from Mao rebels to Mumbai attacks. Literally each one of them tries to project himself as a foreign policy expert and like a true arm chair theorist comes up with mind boggling spins.

    Bastard!!! Dont belittle Mumbai….why u forgot wikileaks? how thick are your blindfolds arseholes?

  39. Raju

    @Modra

    I think you should be ashamed of what you post here.

    After reading your post I got a head-ache. You have no sense for line-breaks! Shame on you!

  40. Modra

    @Raju

    After the headaches you have caused our Pakistani friends with your bigoted rightwing vitriol, it is only fair you taste some liberal dose of line break headaches.

  41. bciv

    this is about the difference between criticism – no matter how poor and subjective the analysis it is based on – and hate. but it is silly to expect those unable to see beyond hate to recognise that.

    this should have nothing to do with the ‘liberals’ and ‘the local audience’. it does not have anything to do with free speech either, expect that once hate speech enters, those looking for an objective and free debate exit (sooner or later).

    Since the majority of PTH readers wish to see and come for meaningful debate here, there is only so many times that they can ignore the same old rants being (endlessly) repeated before it gets so pointless that they leave.

  42. Raza Raja

    Thanks a lot Gentlemen, at least I do not have to search other articles to support the central thesis. All of you are here on this thread and ably proving everything.

    Thanks a lot!!!

    Barvo what maturity and decency!!!!

    @Indian you know having a lecture on liberalism from YOU is really humourous and may I say ironical.
    And yes while teaching PTH about liberalism, the comments of your fellow Indians like karun and Modra, simply qualify as proof of how open minded all of you are.

  43. Prasad

    Well timed article. Meaningful discussions happen when they are far less accusatory in nature. Some folks here should understand

  44. Alakshyendra

    All Indians stand up and applaud. This website is a “liberal” Paki website. All they do is ban posters who raise uncomfortable questions, not behead them, unlike others.

  45. Alakshyendra

    let’s see how long my post lasts on this liberal website.

  46. @Alakshyendra

    Most Indians should just GET THE HELL OUT OF PAK TEA HOUSE.

    Pak Tea House is the best Liberal Pakistani Blog…..Number One.

    i am an Indian and i FULLY AGREE AND ENDORSE BANNING OF CERTAIN POSTERS…….they just come to spread hate and nothing more!!!!

    Long Live this website.

  47. Alakshyendra

    just because you’ve appended pundit to your name does not make you one. so please keep your “sage” advice to yourself.

    anyways, the point i’m trying to make is one is either a liberal or not. it’s not like you were a liberal until someone provoked you into going extremist; it just means your liberalism was just a facade that blew up at the first opportunity you got. if you want to uphold the values of true liberalism, you should be prepared to stand by your convictions in the face of the worst provocation. and unfortunately, this website fails that test.

    i applaud you guys for having taken the first step towards liberalism, but you’re already faltering by coming up with lame excuses as to how a few indians are spoiling your pet project.

  48. Raju Brother

    Indian Pundit just doesn’t want to share chai and biscuit with other Indians.

    So much greed is not good for a healthy living!

  49. @Alakshyendra

    You don’t get the point.

    This is a Pakistani web-site, if locations in cyber space can ever be considered to have a national affiliation. If you’ve been watching the site, the first few bloggers and posters were all Pakistanis (surprise, surprise!). As it happens, Indians came in later. Topics and posts came in largely from Pakistanis. Indians posted rarely.

    It looks like a Pakistani site, it behaves like a Pakistani site – it isn’t TOO difficult to conclude that it is a Pakistani site.

    So what does that mean?

    That means that it primarily outlines Pakistani issues for discussion, typically by Pakistanis themselves, not for any other reason, just simply because in their experience – heck, by now, it is our common shared experience – it is difficult for Indians to contribute with the same knowledge of ground conditions that Pakistanis have about Pakistan.

    Are Pakistanis happy with it? Some are, a lot aren’t. There are many reasons. One is that it doesn’t follow the precepts of the stricter interpretations of Islam. On the contrary, it differs on the religious issue quite broadly. There are contributors who are religious sceptics, agnostics, to put it mildly; they themselves have a more austere name for it. There are others who are observant but find the brutalisation of those who do not follow the same shade of interpretation unbelievably barbaric. A third set of people are also observant, and are critical of the agnostic/atheistic liberals for giving the fundamentalists a free run of the place.

    On politics, there are similar wide variations. People here overwhelmingly ascribe their country’s problems to the betrayal of their original foundation beliefs, and to the sharp turn to fundamentalism brought in by a military dictator. Since then, the relentless weakening of the country’s structures and institutions has gone on, sometimes quicker, sometimes slower, never ceasing for pause or respite.

    Pakistani liberals here, on this site, have also written about the dangerous radicalisation of the general mass of the people by terrorist organisations who have quite clearly been backed by the very powerful – not individuals alone, but institutions of overwhelming power as well.

    There are sections of liberal opinion also which believe that notwithstanding all this, India continues to be an enemy, a baleful and threatening presence with a huge standing army, a massive military budget and an apparently unblinking glare on every activity within this country. This section of opinion, liberal in every other aspect, will not give up ground through coercion, and would at best accept peace on honourable terms.

    While everybody agrees that the entry of fundamentalists has led to the growth of forces who are now increasingly intermingled with normal civil society, therefore increasingly difficult to root out as each month goes by, some give priority to facing the external threat first, and this threat next, others give this priority over the external threat. The external threats consist of Afghanistan, which fought two unofficial wars with Pakistan, of which only one has entered Indian consciousness, and India herself.

    So there are wide variations of thought both on the religious axis and the political one. Combined, they provide for a spread and a richness of variety that quite resembles Indian opinion. It is what they are, it is what they think. Nobody here is writing to order, piping to a different piper’s tune, building up a spurious image of a liberal section in order to deceive us into unwariness. If you take the trouble of reading the posts, including some which are blunt and frank to the point almost of fracture of one’s bones, you will understand that they are doing all this not to impress some undefined Indian audience, but by themselves. And it is very important for them.

    So there is no question of Indians standing up to applaud, in a sarcastic sense. It was never designed to present a dignified and a spurious persona to Indians, an artificial simulation of what we imagine Pakistani liberal society should be. On the contrary , it evolved.

    If there is anything that we should evolve, it is that ability to engage a Pakistani liberal without preconceived conditions or mental obstacles. Or if we must do these things, we should at least open our minds to engage with an experience which differs from our expectations.

  50. The post vindicates one of my psots “Aman ki (bh)asha” in one of posts in my blog.

  51. Pingback: Liberal Pakistani Websites and Indian Right Wingers - BlogOn.pk

  52. Raza Raja

    @Vagra

    That was brilliant and I hope some of the more radicals take some cue from it.

    I understand some people are mocking at us and challenging our credentials and they would need to understand (provided they have that faculty) to know as to what is our purpose.

    There is also an opinion that I should not have written this article but I still think that human beings are rationale beings (at least mostly!!!) and if there are modras and Alakshyendra, there are also people like Vajra, Indian Pundit and countless others who understand what we are doing. These people may not be in agreement with us all the time but are in agreement with the spirit with which we operate.

    Sometings have to be brought in open to be discussed even at the cost of being mocked. One of the reasons is that people can see WHO is reasonable and who is not.

    This article made it clear that we are not anti Indian. It ADMITTED thatPakistan has made errors and it acknowledged extremism on our side.

    It stated that its aim is to counter those shortcomings and rectify those blunders. Finally it made an appeal..

    Yes some have understood it and some are here still mocking….

    But then not all of us are rational beings!!!

  53. @Raza and various and sundry,

    Raza’s article was, in my opinion, liberal in the true sense–it was a plea for civility, which is the prerequisite for discourse. Name-calling and categorical thinking is inherently anti-liberal–which does not mean it needs to be banned. But there should be no confusion, there is nothing illiberal about a private forum banning commentators who can’t abide by simple rules of civility, or deleting posts that are serve no purpose but self-serving and self-aggrandizing at the expense of real discussion.

    To be clear, I am not talking about “harsh criticism” but comments that make “us” / “them” distinctions and put all of “them” into the category of the “bad,” the “evil”–the people whom “we” can never trust.

    I think the moderators are doing a credible job attempting to foster a genuinely liberal discourse–please keep up the excellent work.

  54. HUMANIST

    @Raza Raja
    well done.This is a very nice article.It represents feelings of most of pakistani blogosphere liberals.
    You have rightly used a very good psychological method to convey our feeling of hurt by comments of some indian bloggers.This method is called “I” MESSAGE. In our case it is WE MESSAGE.It has 3 stages

    stage1.Tell him/them about his/their specific behaviour(s) that is disturbing you.

    stage2.Tell him/them what you feel when he repeats/does that behaviour

    stage3.Tell him/them what they should do to change this situation so that you both dont feel bad.

    stage4.If he/they listen and change their specific behaviour, enjoy friendship..if he/they dont, avoid further interaction with him them.

  55. AJ

    Raza,

    I am a regular reader of your blog and enjoy reading the insightful articles you publish. Though I have never commented on pakteahouse before, your article has moved me to do so. For the record I am an Indian.

    It is tiresome to stumble upon comment after comment by Indians in almost every international article concerning India/Pakistan where they are either beating their chest or being critical of Pakistan.

    The internet, an anonymous media, gives people drunk on “India Shining” an ideal platform to spew their visceral hate. Lamenting upon an other country’s perceived failure is a means of feeling good about themselves. Please ignore!

    Being a liberal and standing steadfastly for your ideals, especially in the current environment, is difficult and kudos to you guys. I would like to strongly encourage you and other Pakistani bloggers like you to continue blogging in spite of these Indian trolls.

  56. Raju Brother

    @Vajra

    As you say, if PTH is a Pakistan centered website, what are the Indian ‘Liberals’ doing here, promising Indian support? What do the Pakistanis need Indian support for? They can solve their problems on their own to the best of their abilities.

    As you may have noticed hardly any Indian posts on topics like Sex on the LMU! Why not? Simply because it has nothing to do with India, and Indians will not post on issues that they are not concerned with. Indians mostly post on topics started here, which has a direct bearing on India. So if there were no such topics no Indian flies would come over.

    Perhaps the reason why Indians like me post here, is to convince our neighbors, that there will be no separate peace between India and Pakistani ‘Liberals’. They will not be treated as something apart from the Pakistani establishment. They will share the same fate as the rest of Pakistan, whatever that might be, be it glorious or be it gloomy.

    Should the ship of Pakistan sink, they should not expect India to send any rescue boats! I am being honest here, because I believe, the Pakistani Liberals should not live under any illusions nor be given any false hope by so-called Indian ‘Liberals’!

    If they think their country is heading towards a head-on collision with destiny, then they should take up the cause of course adjustment seriously, before it is too late. “Chai-Biscuit” at PTH may not be enough.

    IF the Pakistani Liberals think, that Pakistan’s India Policy needs a reevaluation, and I am not making assumptions here, and Pakistan must arrive at some peace with India, then they should know, that all of their persuasive effort they should save for the Pakistani Establishment. There is no use expecting India to make any concessions whatsoever, even as a symbolic gesture. As far as Indians are concerned, India is already (or still) at peace with Pakistan. It is Pakistan that needs to stop the war.

    So there is nothing India can do. For India, this tussle between the Army, the Islamists, and the Pakistani Liberals is an internal Pakistani matter, and does not really interest us. India will deal with whichever party wins this struggle. India deals both with military and democratic governments in Pakistan. If an Islamist government should come to Pakistan, then India will deal with them as well.

    One reason it does not make a difference whether it is some Liberals or some Islamists that are in power in Islamabad, is simply because from India’s PoV, there is no difference. Both Pakistani Liberals and Islamists are Muslim Chauvinists, and see history from that prism. On a personal basis it doesn’t bother me to have acquaintances who are Muslim Chauvinists, but a nation full of Muslim Chauvinists would always remain antagonistic towards Hindus and India.

    So for India, the battle between Moderation/Liberalism on the one side and Islamism on the other is of no consequence, because Muslim Chauvinism does not vanish.

    In fact the Liberal Muslim Chauvinists have always been in power in Pakistan, and India has had to face such an antagonistic Pakistan for the last 63 years. There are voices in India, which say, that may be it is time to check out the Islamists. They may be different.

    Basically if PTH did not have any Indian Liberals falsely promising the Pakistanis here some separate Indo-Pak peace and concessions, there would also be no Indian nationalist right-wing assholes like me on PTH, calling the Indian Marxists bluff.

    As India rises, Indians would become more self-confident, more nationalistic and less willing to compromise. This is also something Pakistanis interested in India should learn to cope with.

    If Pakistan hits India with terrorist attacks, this process would only accelerate. Every attack on India gives India an added impetus to improve our security. It gives an added impetus to bolster up our defense. It gives an added impetus to consider Pakistan an enemy. Every attack, brings Indians of all ilk together. Every attack, makes India stronger.

    On the other hand every attack on India hollows out Pakistan and pushes it still further over the abyss of extremism. Every attack on India ruins Pakistan’s image in the world. So basically it is Pakistan that needs peace more than India.

    This section of opinion, liberal in every other aspect, will not give up ground through coercion, and would at best accept peace on honourable terms.

    There is no coercion, but there will also be no peace if honourable terms is a euphemism for Indian concessions.

    In the end, I would just say that if PTH wishes to remain free of irritating Indians, like me, it would be best for PTH to bar all Indians.

  57. Alashyendra

    steve gardiner:

    Name-calling and categorical thinking is inherently anti-liberal–which does not mean it needs to be banned.

    name calling? no one does it better than one of the moderators of this website, ylh. arse-hole, sewer rat et al. are standard issue adjectives that he liberally (at least in that sense this website is a liberal pakistani website) uses for anyone who doesn’t toe his line. if you didn’t know this, the least i can say is you’re utterly ignorant.

  58. Hayyer

    I’ve been trying to understand what draws the right wing Hindu hardcore to PTH; often to abuse and curse.
    I think it’s because it is a mirror for Indians. Some cannot accept what they see. They say the mirror is distorted because they it shows them their warts.

  59. Raza Raja

    Thanks AJ, Steve Gardiner and Humanist

    That was indeed very nice of all of you. You understand the essence of the argument

  60. Raza Raja

    @ Raju Brother and company

    Sir we do not have intentions of banning all the Indian because frankly not all think like you!!!

    And we do not have intentions of banning you also. Though all I can say is that there are a number of rightwing Pakistani sites where you will meet your match and where this hateful tirade will be met with equal force. If you are so keen to show your hatred and want equal hatred in return, please give those sites a try and I can assure you will be treated the way you desperately to be treated: Not with respect and civility but hate and ridicule.

    The article was an appeal to rationality against instinct based nationalism. Only people drunk with instinctive nationalism boast about successes and look down on others.

  61. Alashyendra

    These people may not be in agreement with us all the time but are in agreement with the spirit with which we operate.

    mr. raza, did you say spirit? the first thing about liberalism one needs to understand is that it is a perilous course that is full of provocations and obstacles and unless you’re steadfast in your convictions, it is just a facade – deliberate or otherwise – and will come down crashing like a house of cards. if a few indians can upset you so much that you pen a whole column for it, what can one say but that the veneer is falling away.

    even zulfiqar ali bhutto was considered a liberal but when push came to shove, he was the one who gave teeth to one of the most divisive laws in history by banishing ahmadis from the fold of islam (or at least pakistani islam).

  62. Raju Brother

    Raza Raja wrote:

    If you are so keen to show your hatred and want equal hatred in return

    Raza, I read your article, and I can understand what you are saying and why you are saying it.

    I am not sure, that you have read, what I wrote, otherwise you would not be speaking of hatred. Perhaps you would oblige me and point out, where I speak of hatred, or with hatred.

  63. Raza Raja

    @Alashyendra

    Getting upset over hatred and bigotry and making an appeal to show rationality is not anti liberalism

    Illiberal beahviour is ENCOURAGING such behaviour. Do not use the word liberal in a twisted and cynical way.

    I am also educated and I know what I am saying. And YOU also fully know that protesting about hatred is NOT illiberal.

    And yes this accusation would have been right if instead of making an appeal to basic human values of rationality and decency, I had instead made an appeal to vulgar instincts. I am not doing that. The article made an appeal to all of your good instincts not reactionary instincts

  64. Raj

    1)Unfortunately Ideas and thought doesn’t have nationality and labels (of liberalism , Marxism , right wing) , its human branding ..

    2) unfortunately This medium of internet makes things very democratic and accessible to people beyond your society .. you shall be happy that ideas and thoughts from other side make this Site more liberal . or may be you are not use to diversity of human thought process . branding the “other” thoughts as Right wing Indian and complaining about them makes you less liberal :))

    3) unfortunately Indians (even West) and Pakistanis have different ways of dealing with faith . in Indian thought process no idea or matter of faith is beyond criticism and discussion , just because it is in religious books or said by some saint doesn’t make that thought beyond human discussion .you might think that Faith is beyond discussion , but that then you are getting in the territory of intolerant fundamentalism . you have to live with it or rather participate in that debate .. Internet is all about meeting diversity of human ideas and intellect .

    4) Ideas can be countered only with ideas not ban .. Thought will always exist somewhere, make sure it exist also in your website and let people read and decide them-self .

  65. Raza Raja

    Anyways, I am glad that a substantial number of people have endorsed what I am saying. as a writer I do not expect every one to agree with me. But I will keep on trying. There are certain things which are self evident universal moral values. Those are the ultimate truths which are self evident. Showing decency and mutual respect on a forum which is doing its two bits to reduce misunderstanding between the two countries, is not a debatable point. It is just so plain and evident

  66. Alakshyendra

    mr. raza, how many times have you tried to discipline one of your own moderators who has used all sorts of abuses against posters? or do your rules apply only to posters and not moderators? when you apply such double standards and in the same breath talk about liberalism and how it is being threatened by indians, it does not behove you. i’ve posted a few times and found myself banned merely because my views were at variance with those of the author. are even divergent views not allowed on this liberal website?

  67. Tilsim

    Raza

    Your article was a great plea and I think it will influence some people to review their stance. However, I think we have to recognise (as many of us suspect) that many of the Indians voicing hatred here are political activists for or that they harbour sympathy for certain right wing Indian organisations. It’s not possible to reconcile them. I think as Steven Gardiner suggested, the moderation policy needs review. Those who are taking a them/us approach and poisoning the atmosphere should be excluded in my view.

  68. @Raza Raja
    August 24, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    Keep up the good work.
    You have my complete support.

    Well done and hats off to you.
    True liberals will win and must win at the end!

  69. Raza Raja

    @ Alakshyendra

    Not every post of you has been filtered. Only particualr ones. You know it very well.

    Anyways you are an intelligent fellow and I hope that in future disagreements will be civic from all sides.

  70. @Raj,

    Regarding your point 2, simply mentioning that many of the uncivil and illiberal-sounding commentators on PTH are “right wing Indians” is not illiberal. To claim that it is amounts to sophistry. Unless you are arguing that (1) there is no such thing as a right-wing Indian, or (2) that those making the comments in question are not right-wing. The former case is clearly false; the latter would have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. It is clear, however, that many people who are otherwise liberal in outlook, from whatever country, become illiberal when it comes to official enemies.

    On you point number 3, there are religious bigots and extremists in every country. I see no lack of condemnation of religious extremism in Pakistan–albeit there is obviously a lot of work to do both in government and in the civil society that has to push the government to do the right thing. PTH seems to me part of that process.

    Finally, and again, a plea for civility in a blog post is not a disproportionate reaction to angry comments that do nothing to advance the conversation.

  71. Alakshyendra

    However, I think we have to recognise (as many of us suspect) that many of the Indians voicing hatred here are political activists for or that they harbour sympathy for certain right wing Indian organisations.

    welcome to the world of conspiracy theories! until now, i thought that was the exclusive preserve of the pakistani islamists. now we have one among pakistani liberals as well.

  72. Raza Raja

    @tilsim

    I think a substantial number only get carried away. They are not intentionally bad. I beleive in the innate good values which all the humans possess. I think some of Indians and Pakistanis have a tendency to be carried away and a circle of accusations start. Yes a small minority belongs to that category also. But majority of Indians and pakistanis are not bad humans

    We need to have this faith otherwise frankly we can not be talking about peace in the first place!!!!

  73. Alakshyendra

    mr. raza, you seem to be imply that i haven’t been civil in my posts. can you please show me one post in which i’ve used abuses of the kind one of your moderators has? if you can, i will immediately stop posting here going forward.

  74. Tilsim

    I have watched with distaste how Indians such as Vajra and others have been called traitors, told to become Pakistanis and generally intimidated. This behaviour should be unacceptable.

  75. Raza Raja

    For example look at Mr Alakshyendra here. His responses are clearly showing that he is intelligent and is not an inherently biased person but some one who is in this cycle. Most of us are like that fortunately. I beleive and sense and rationality will prevail.

    When we talk of peace, we profess it while beleiving that eventually we are rational beings despite phases of irrationality.

    We are all educated and know that disagreements can be voiced without showing irrational behaviour.

  76. Tilsim

    @ Raza Raja

    I have faith too but at a certain point it’s appropriate to draw a line. Certain behaviour is self evidently not going to promote peace or even a reasonable discussion.

  77. Raza Raja

    @ Tilsim..if vajra and others have been called traitors by some Indians, lets accept it that all of us have also been called traitors by Pakistanis though not on this website perhaps!!!
    Liberalsim comes with certain tags!!!

  78. Girish

    It is overly simplistic to dismiss any divergent view as hate-mongering or right wing Hindutva inspired. Or merely that PTH shows Indians their warts. PTH has people who post who are liberal and others who are not so liberal. People including moderators are sometimes liberal, at other times intolerant of even legitimate criticism. Also, visitors are abusive, but so are some of the moderators. There are people who contribute original thoughts, others whose only task here is to try to get everybody who disagrees with them banned. Some who present real substance, others who pretend as if skill with language substitutes for it. People who show a genuine desire to learn, others who have preconceived notions and will not change their views irrespective of what evidence they see.

    The point is that there is a lot of heterogeneity in the world. India is no exception. The Indians coming here are diverse. And so are the Pakistanis.

    It is up to those running this forum as what they want here. My own personal preference for a blog that proclaims liberal values is to shut out nothing other than abuse. There is no place for abuse, denigration of any person or any group of persons, or hate speech here. Other than that, everything should be acceptable. If you disagree with something, say so. Else ignore it. But banning everybody who has a different perspective goes against the very liberal values you wish to promote.

  79. Vijay Goel

    Raza Sahib I first came to this site after the Mumbai attacks (As Gorki did -he said it in one of his posts) after I read of your views in Times of India. I hv in my own small way been trying to foster Indo pak detente and there are many Muslim friends of mine here in Delhi who will bear me out. One such is Mr. Samar Hamid editor of ‘Nation and the World’ who also asked you to post an article in his magazine.
    This preamble is just to say I am a friend so kindly take my views as such. What I wish to say is that if you wish for a free dialogue do not consider your site as only a Pakistan site. You hv thrown it open to an International audience so why say it is a Pakistan site. Let all air their views and as many have pointed out Liberals need to hv a strong stomach for it is long haul. Indians only post on matters which which concern our two countries. Their desire to communicate shows their wish for some peace between us. You can yourself see the number of posts on Indo Pak concerns far out number posts on other matters that itself is a gratification. At least we are talking. And talking to a cross section of Indian opinion. Lets hope some good will come out.

  80. pankaj

    My simple questions to ALL pakistani liberals on this site and else where.
    1. Can you change the attitude of Pakistan Army towards India
    2.Kashmir is an INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA.
    Do you accept or not.

    Otherwise this conflict will NEVER END .
    No matter how civil we are with each other on the forum

  81. Tilsim

    @ Girish
    I don’t think anyone is asking for a ban of people with a different perspective. We are talking about people who poison the atmosphere, who make hateful comments. Yes, if such a rule were to be applied, it should include the moderators.

  82. Raza Raja

    @ Girish

    No one is being over simplistic…I have only branded a particular behaviour as such.

    Look all of us KNOW where to draw the line

  83. Raza Raja

    @ Vijay Goel

    Sir we are just making a request here and nothing more!!

  84. Hola

    @Tilsim
    */I have watched with distaste how Indians such as Vajra and others have been called traitors, told to become Pakistanis /*

    I think that Pakistanis are a very liberal people with lots of honor and dignity. I am sure Mr. Vajra will really fit in Pakistan especially with his self declared hatred for Hindi and Biharis, and love for Urdu nazms.

    I am really confused why he choses to stick around in a den of intolerant Hindu right wing fascists and leave us to our own misery.

  85. Tilsim

    My suggestion would be to post a code of conduct on this website. Anyone violating this should be referred to it in the first instance. If they are not able to abide by this, they should be excluded.

  86. Raj

    Dear Stevan

    labeling an idea in the categories depends lot on our level of tolerance , a so called ” right wing Indian” might label you as “opportunist Dhimmi ”🙂 .
    Its your judgement which judges you .

    In Ramayana , after shooting the fatal arrow on the battlefield of Lanka, Ram told his brother, Lakshman, “Go to Ravan quickly before he dies and request him to share whatever knowledge he can. A brute he may be, but he is also a great scholar”

    As for my Point 3 .. Criminals are everywhere, in every society .. but society is judged by the government and the law . not criminals point of view

  87. Raju Brother

    Tilsim wrote:

    I have watched with distaste how Indians such as Vajra and others have been called traitors

    He was called that for a very good reason, for his unwillingness to even acknowledge India’s actions towards Pakistan done in good faith at a considerable loss to India’s national interests.

    As far as his citizenship goes, nobody can take it away from him, not the Indian Government, not RSS, not I, nor anybody else, so there is no need for taking offence.

    Anyway, I am sure he will feel honored to be conferred the Pakistani citizenship, going from his passion to come in support of Pakistani stance, so why the offense!

  88. @Hola
    //””I am sure Mr. Vajra will really fit in Pakistan especially with his self declared hatred for Hindi and Biharis, and love for Urdu nazms.””//

    Mr.Hola……you will not decide who stays in India and who will not……

    India is NOT your fathers property…..that u will tell who goes where…….

    //””I am really confused why he choses to stick around in a den of intolerant Hindu right wing fascists and leave us to our own misery.””//

    Both India and Pakistan is FULL OF right-wing fascists……..its our duty to fight against them using every means possible. Its our “Task That Never Ends”……..

    Mr.Vajra is one of the most sanest individuals in PTH…….

  89. Raju Brother
    August 24, 2010 at 8:35 pm
    //””Anyway, I am sure he will feel honored to be conferred the Pakistani citizenship, going from his passion to come in support of Pakistani stance, so why the offense!””//

    No one is coming in support of Pakistani stance.

    Its a case of a liberal supporting other liberals…..against right wingers…..

  90. Raju Brother

    Tilsim wrote:

    My suggestion would be to post a code of conduct on this website. Anyone violating this should be referred to it in the first instance. If they are not able to abide by this, they should be excluded.

    My, my, my! Here comes the Sharia!

    And may be after a year, PTH will have four sects each interpreting the PTH Sharia in his own way. In 2 years, each sect would be led by one irrefutable PTH leader! In 3 years, there will be a division, and then there will be 7 sects. In 4 years, each sect would adopt the principle of hereditary leadership. In 5 years, the leader of the biggest PTH sect, would attack the main wordpress server, and change all the moderator rights virtually taking over PTH. Then there will a lot of thoo-thookar. The other sects would then set up their own PTH clones – Pakistani Coffee House, Pakistani Lassi House, Pakistani Nimbu-Pani House, Pakistani Rooh-Hafza House, Pakistani ZamZam Cola House, Pakistani Green Tea House!

    Then Tilsim junior will say in Pakistani Nimbu-Pani House they need a new book of code of conduct! ……….

  91. Tilsim

    @ Raza Raja

    “lets accept it that all of us have also been called traitors …Liberalsim comes with certain tags!!!”

    Yes, liberals in this part of the world do attract a lot of abuse. You and I may be thick skinned and I am sure Vajra and others posting here are too. However, do we also consider perhaps many people who have something to say but are frightened to voice their opinions because they may be intimidated or hounded by their fellow compatriots. Just reflect on what Sid Harth said:

    “I received verbal abuse on a daily basis. My sister, mother was violated by the critics and such favorite animals as dogs, donkeys, and lepers.

    I was branded as anti-Indian and placed on a “Hindu hit list.

    My house location, my telephone number, my office location, my family’s names and particulars were -e-mailed by their chian-mailing campaigns.

    I was alleged as a child molester and government of USA was asked to follow me.

    The local police, actually knocked on my door to nvestigate.

    I received verbal abuse on a daily basis. My sister, mother was violated by the critics and such favorite animals as dogs, donkeys, and lepers.

    I was branded as anti-Indian and placed on a “Hindu hit list.

    My house location, my telephone number, my office location, my family’s names and particulars were -e-mailed by their chian-mailing campaigns.

    I was alleged as a child molester and government of USA was asked to follow me.

    The local police, actually knocked on my door to nvestigate.”

    Is that an acceptable price to be a liberal? I think not. We need to define some limits.

  92. Raju Brother

    Indian Pundit wrote:

    Its a case of a liberal supporting other liberals…..against right wingers…..

    Over 99% of Indians are liberals. What you mean is de-racinated Indian Marxists supporting Pakistani ‘Liberals’ against normal run-of-the-mill Indians!

  93. Tilsim

    @ Raju Brother
    August 24, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Mildly amusing.

  94. Raju Brother
    August 24, 2010 at 8:53 pm
    //””Over 99% of Indians are liberals.””//

    Good joke!

  95. @Tilsim

    //””Is that an acceptable price to be a liberal? I think not. We need to define some limits.””//

    Look dude , the problem is Liberals dont have the muscle power and street power. Thats why liberals can get “intimidated or hounded” by right-wingers who have both.

    Its time to take on the right-wingers in their own game!

    Unless we do that , not much can be achieved!

  96. Hola

    ^^
    Wah wah .. we have a wannabe Mao-vadi revolutionary amongst our ranks

  97. Raju Brother

    Indian Pundit wrote:

    Good joke!

    I think you will need good jokes to keep up your spirits when you lose the elections in West Bengal!

  98. @Hola & Raju Brother

    And two hindu fascist goons too!

  99. Raju Brother

    @Hola

    I think “Indian Pundit” could be a RAW agent placed to elicit Pakistani Liberal support for spreading Maoism throughout Pakistan.

    I wish him good luck!

  100. Also Hola u are showing how intellectually dull and corrupted Indians have become these days…..

    i am a libertarian leftist!

    Not a communist!

  101. @”Raju Bhai”

    //As you say, if PTH is a Pakistan centered website, what are the Indian ‘Liberals’ doing here, promising Indian support? What do the Pakistanis need Indian support for? They can solve their problems on their own to the best of their abilities.//

    One of the irritants that Indian habitues of these blogs encounter frequently is the FAQ Fly. Yourself, in other words. It is really difficult to keep patient and to conform to those ridiculous criteria of Steven Gardiner, when one longs to give in to one’s natural instinct and do rather violent but physiognomically improbable things to your extremities.

    This question of Indians on Pakistani blogs has been discussed exhaustively on PTH, actually, even earlier than PTH, on ATP. If you can get a man called PMA to speak to you, an unlikely proposition, you may hear him narrate an account of the consensus that was achieved some months ago, nearly two years ago, if I am not mistaken.

    The consensus is this: there is nothing positive that Indians can contribute in terms of solving the political or socio-cultural problems that Pakistan faces, and that liberal sections of Pakistani society have addressed as their major tasks. Similarly, while that is not the subject of conversation at this blog, some Pakistanis are aware that Indian liberals consider that they too face some difficulties within Indian society. This is not the place to particularise, but it is useful to mention this in order to bring in the notion of reciprocity in our treatment of each other.

    It is clear that we can do nothing to solve Pakistan’s problems. Likewise it is clear that they can do nothing to solve India’s problems. At best, Indian liberals can sympathise, and occasionally comment when there are issues where abstraction and conceptual matters are relevant, where no discussion of realities on the ground are involved. And conversely. It was agreed that they have nothing to contribute in our problems and our solutions for our problems.

    So you are right, for once, and we already have an understanding among ourselves not to comment on each other’s more intricate details, as we are unlikely to understand them.

    This rule is violated frequently, typically when an Indian dimwit (there are Pakistani dimwits, but our dimwits are dimmer than their dimwits, just like their bigots are more bigot per bigot than our bigots) makes a totally crass entry into an area which he clearly knows nothing about.When this happens, the hot-heads, the young warriors in the Pakistani camp (actually, there’s only one, but he zips around at such speed that we are all under the impression that there may actually be three of him alone, and perhaps another seven to ten thousand of lesser type) head for Hindustan swearing immediate reciprocation. So when a particularly thick-skinned Pakistani politician comes up in conversation, and a particularly thick-skinned Indian commenter makes a particularly stupid comment, the ghost-busters sail off into Indian airspace and get an Indian horrible example.

    //As you may have noticed hardly any Indian posts on topics like Sex on the LMU! Why not? Simply because it has nothing to do with India, and Indians will not post on issues that they are not concerned with. Indians mostly post on topics started here, which has a direct bearing on India. So if there were no such topics no Indian flies would come over.//

    Please read the entire passage above. That is your homework.

    //Perhaps the reason why Indians like me post here, is to convince our neighbors, that there will be no separate peace between India and Pakistani ‘Liberals’. They will not be treated as something apart from the Pakistani establishment. They will share the same fate as the rest of Pakistan, whatever that might be, be it glorious or be it gloomy.//

    That is the silliest and most condescending piece of crap I have heard, and you will hear much more about it once Pakistanis grasp what you are saying, that Pakistani liberals are preparing a safe haven for themselves by striking up friendships with gullible Indian liberals.

    For your information, most Pakistani liberals, their liberalism on political and socio-cultural beliefs aside, have proven to be robust patriots. Furthermore, most of them have better credentials than ours; of the moderators, two live abroad, the third has the capability to move whenever he wishes, and has enough of a network to cover this move well ahead of time. There is no need for them to look for Indian patronage.

    For your information, further, because it now seems that it will be useful and necessary information for you, the Indian liberals here have the same robust attitude about being detached from positions that they believe, individually, to be good for India. AS these positions do not coincide with the Pakistani positions, there have been heated clashes, and we have agreed that a strong agreement among our groups on political and socio-cultural matters need not compromise our respective stands on international relations. We have agreed that these issues need not enter the conversation, as it is not particularly appropriate to discuss them here.

    //Should the ship of Pakistan sink, they should not expect India to send any rescue boats! I am being honest here, because I believe, the Pakistani Liberals should not live under any illusions nor be given any false hope by so-called Indian ‘Liberals’!//

    You are being true to yourself, and you have a hugely exaggerated sense of your importance, and a wholly distorted impression of the way in which Pakistanis look at us. They are extremely polite people, and are nowhere near as verbally belligerent as we are. If, from that, you have picked up some notion that they are currying favour, you are a clown of some massive proportions.

    Put very bluntly, an average Pakistani, more so an average Pakistani liberal has an extremely poor impression about Indians in general, and about intellectual capability in particular. They have every reason to; all the evidence is quite suggestive. Some of us have suggested that the Indian they encounter in cyberspace is some kind of a hothouse breed, and we have adduced ample evidence. Just when we achieve some degree of accepting tolerance among them towards the common or garden troll, a new outburst puts them off again.

    Think of yourself as an H1N1 virus, and you will come to some idea of what Pakistanis expect from you. Not to be a raft on which to take refuge and on which to float away from their present troubles, more like a virus which can be avoided by taking careful and anxious precautions, but which can still break through and cause damage.

    That is why the resentment against Raza Rumi, because he refuses to apply a quarantine, as requested and petitioned time and again.

    //If they think their country is heading towards a head-on collision with destiny, then they should take up the cause of course adjustment seriously, before it is too late. “Chai-Biscuit” at PTH may not be enough.//

    That, in their opinion, is none of your business, and to the extent that it concerns you – any Indian – the information will be conveyed. PTH is for that reason not relevant for you.

    //IF the Pakistani Liberals think, that Pakistan’s India Policy needs a reevaluation, and I am not making assumptions here, and Pakistan must arrive at some peace with India, then they should know, that all of their persuasive effort they should save for the Pakistani Establishment. There is no use expecting India to make any concessions whatsoever, even as a symbolic gesture. As far as Indians are concerned, India is already (or still) at peace with Pakistan. It is Pakistan that needs to stop the war.//

    It has already been explained, painstakingly, that Pakistanis have no expectations from either the broad mass of Indians, the thin sliver that they meet here, or any other size, shape or variety. The heated debate among them is why they should have Indians in their blogs at all.

    //So there is nothing India can do. For India, this tussle between the Army, the Islamists, and the Pakistani Liberals is an internal Pakistani matter, and does not really interest us. India will deal with whichever party wins this struggle. India deals both with military and democratic governments in Pakistan. If an Islamist government should come to Pakistan, then India will deal with them as well.//

    Since they are not the Pakistani foreign ministry, and we are not the Indian foreign ministry, for either side to make such smug and self-important statements seems ridiculous. At least, we have made ourselves ridiculous, by your taking the entire burden of national policy on your shoulders – with or without the benefit of credentials. At least on present display, the Government of India is quite happy to deal with Pakistan without the benefit of your advice, unless your identity conceals that of a senior bureacrat in the foreign ministry, or a senior politicians with influence over formulation of foreign policy.

    Are you contributing your exciting, dramatic teasers from New Delhi, btw? If you were such an important cog in the wheel, no doubt you would be parked as close to the quarters mentioned as possible, without being looked at askance by the traffic police or those censorious of today’s morals.

    Meanwhile, the Pakistanis, liberals and otherwise, have made no claims to influencing their own foreign policy. To that extent, even without other evidence, our respective stances are asymmetric.

    //One reason it does not make a difference whether it is some Liberals or some Islamists that are in power in Islamabad, is simply because from India’s PoV, there is no difference. Both Pakistani Liberals and Islamists are Muslim Chauvinists, and see history from that prism. On a personal basis it doesn’t bother me to have acquaintances who are Muslim Chauvinists, but a nation full of Muslim Chauvinists would always remain antagonistic towards Hindus and India.//

    You speak far too readily about India’s POV. Have you some authority for doing so, for claiming any weight other than what you have demonstrated as being your personal calibre and capacity?

    //So for India, the battle between Moderation/Liberalism on the one side and Islamism on the other is of no consequence, because Muslim Chauvinism does not vanish.//

    Perhaps a little humility in making sweeping statements and assuming responsibility for such wide tracts of the public responsibility awarded to bureaucrats and the elected representatives of the people might be wholesome.

    //In fact the Liberal Muslim Chauvinists have always been in power in Pakistan, and India has had to face such an antagonistic Pakistan for the last 63 years. There are voices in India, which say, that may be it is time to check out the Islamists. They may be different.//

    A marvellous conclusion from no visible evidence that has been placed. No doubt we must take the entire thing on trust. And no doubt the voices in India are other than the voices in India blogging as “Raju Bhai”.

    Basically if PTH did not have any Indian Liberals falsely promising the Pakistanis here some separate Indo-Pak peace and concessions, there would also be no Indian nationalist right-wing assholes like me on PTH, calling the Indian Marxists bluff.

    //As India rises, Indians would become more self-confident, more nationalistic and less willing to compromise. This is also something Pakistanis interested in India should learn to cope with.//

    It is possible also that with increasing knowledge of the deficiencies and defects in our education system, we may put things right. If so, the current crop of hysterical semi-literates may be replaced by thinking people, educated to evaluate and judge situations by themselves. If so, then to extrapolate today’s trend may be wishful thinking. Today’s trend is an absolute disaster insofar as it breeds half-educated and prosperous citizens, so they are both rich enough to go on line frequently, and stupid enough to be cannon fodder for the tracts and pamphlets which are printed as brain substitutes by a certain class of politicians.

    //If Pakistan hits India with terrorist attacks, this process would only accelerate. Every attack on India gives India an added impetus to improve our security. It gives an added impetus to bolster up our defense. It gives an added impetus to consider Pakistan an enemy. Every attack, brings Indians of all ilk together. Every attack, makes India stronger.

    On the other hand every attack on India hollows out Pakistan and pushes it still further over the abyss of extremism. Every attack on India ruins Pakistan’s image in the world. So basically it is Pakistan that needs peace more than India.//

    There is no intellectual section on earth that understands this painstaking and plodding repetition of their core position better than the Pakistani liberal does.

    //This section of opinion, liberal in every other aspect, will not give up ground through coercion, and would at best accept peace on honourable terms.//

    That remark, as might have been deduced at the time of making itself, applies to liberals of all nationalities. Not just Indians, but the Pakistanis, to our certain knowledge, from their printed statements and clear positions, think so.

    //There is no coercion, but there will also be no peace if honourable terms is a euphemism for Indian concessions.//

    It is a vastly instructive exercise for a particularly kind of mind that runs on tram-lines to substitute one word for what that mind considers its opposite, and evaluate the result.

    You might, for instance, find huge educational value in substituting int he statement above Pakistani for Indian.

    //In the end, I would just say that if PTH wishes to remain free of irritating Indians, like me, it would be best for PTH to bar all Indians.//

    No, that does not logically follow.

    If the irritating Indian can be identified, and he most certainly can, then it defies common sense to enlarge the category to its null-complement, the non-irritating part. What would be the reason to do so, other than meaningless rancour?

  102. Amit Kumar

    Instead of debating .. lets verify facts.. its said “the taste of pudding is in eating? Compare the Indian constitution with Pakistani constitution.

    That will give us a better idea. I will request my Pakistani friends to give us an idea about the liberalism in constitution of ‘Islamic’ republic of Pakistan.

  103. Straight-Talk

    In India and Pakistan, last 60 years of hate mongering and up man-ship has produced countless of bigots,zealots, haters, hypocrates. In India’s case, these people got the computers and Internet, and want to bequeath all the venom they’ve within them anywhere, anytime, anyplace.

    But they should realize that with great power comes great responsibility. We should be sensible to others feeling too. We should think hundred times before uttering a word, which we don’t like for ourselves. These tolerant sites should be used to create awareness, present real pictures not distorted one, be able to listen and respect others opinion which you may normally not know or not like.

    This amazing platform should not be wasted like our politicians wasting umpteen opportunity for last 60 years, but used to create an amicable environment where one day we can agree upon on common solutions for our numerous problems.

  104. Hayyer

    Girish:

    “It is overly simplistic to dismiss any divergent view as hate-mongering or right wing Hindutva inspired. Or merely that PTH shows Indians their warts. PTH has people who post who are liberal and others who are not so liberal. People including moderators are sometimes liberal, at other times intolerant of even legitimate criticism.”

    Not at all.
    Liberal Indians may empathize with the sentiment posted on PTH by its owner and editors. But the Indians who come here to abuse and curse are not liberals responding to liberals. They are right wing Hindutva types, atheists or otherwise, who don’t like what the home truths they read here about themselves.

    ” Also, visitors are abusive, but so are some of the moderators. There are people who contribute original thoughts, others whose only task here is to try to get everybody who disagrees with them banned.”

    You refer to one moderator in particular. But the Hindutva types respond across the board to every liberal sentiment expressed by any Pakistani. And then there are the likes of Shiv, a self confessed atheist who seems to need help himself.

    “.. Some who present real substance, others who pretend as if skill with language substitutes for it. People who show a genuine desire to learn, others who have preconceived notions and will not change their views irrespective of what evidence they see.”

    Yes, but the Indian off colour posts are autonomous generated, not necessarily, or always in response to the likes of Kashif or Ummi.

    “The point is that there is a lot of heterogeneity in the world. India is no exception. The Indians coming here are diverse. And so are the Pakistanis.”

    So they are.

    “It is up to those running this forum as what they want here. My own personal preference for a blog that proclaims liberal values is to shut out nothing other than abuse. There is no place for abuse, denigration of any person or any group of persons, or hate speech here. Other than that, everything should be acceptable. If you disagree with something, say so.”

    Those running this forum are tolerant of abuse, beyond anything seen anywhere in liberal India. If there is an Indian magazine, newspaper or website that contradicts the previous sentence I should be glad to hear about it. PTH allows Hindutva types to denigrate sub-continental Muslims and Islam in general, without let or hindrance. Hindu hate speech is allowed even as the moderators fight off their own hate brigade. That’s not good enough for some Indians. They want a white flag waved from within Pak territory.

    “But banning everybody who has a different perspective goes against the very liberal values you wish to promote.”

    PTH’s liberal attitude encourages an invasion of Hindutva trolls intent on undermining the site. These fellows are attempting what RSS types do in India whenever they get a chance-they are trying to create a communal riot in a Muslim Mohalla. Preventive police action lies in arresting the buggers, and giving them a good hiding before they can succeed.

  105. Amit Kumar

    As an average Indian guy..I have nothing to do with Pakistan.. i am not interested in their problems. I just want the Pakistani people to tell their government to stop sending Jihadi who are killing our people. Your govt/amry policy is to bleed india by thousand cuts.

    As long as this policy is in place you will find plenty of Indian guy like me . who has no interest in politics or know nothing about Pakistan but .will point out all that is wrong with you.

    Pakistan becomes a wealthy nation or make $200 billions from America or 200 Nuclear power plant from China.. or they decides to become a rentier states.. does not matter..Please let my countrymen live in peace. We have many other problems solve.

  106. @Amit Kumar

    This is not about constitutions, but about how to repair constitutions. This is not an athletic contest, where we have ten minutes to read and explain a clause, and they have ten minutes to read and explain their corresponding clause.

    This is a situation where our neighbouring state has landed up with a damaged constitution, as it seems from the point of view of liberal members of their society, and they are looking for ways to reverse the dangerous things that have happened. They have identified, point by point, the wrong decisions that their country’s political leadership took. They now want their country back where it ought always have been, a democratic state, with ultimate power in the hands of its civilian institutions.

    Do you see why your battle cry makes such little sense? This is a war that nobody is fighting. This is not a comparison between the M1A1 Abrams MBT and the Leopard Mk2.

    @Straight-Talk

    I have to tell you that part of the reason for the present situation of being besieged is you and I, Indian liberals who haven’t done enough to discourage the poisoned, religious bigots with fascists politics who want to strut their stuff in public. Unfortunately, because this is an attractive site, a very unusual one, with some good pieces and considerable good commentary, they have decided to descend on the site like a pack of starving pi-dogs. Earlier, there used to be one at a time, now they are attacking in a pack.

    There was a time when first, YLH, then, after he tired, others, following his example, went straight after the more egregious offenders and stopped them before they spread from thread to thread to thread. This volunteered service broke down because it was purely voluntary, undertaken by those who could then spare the considerable time. The administration took then, and takes today a rigidly dogmatic stand, which has been shown to be unjustified, and ultimately harmful to the purposes for which the blog may have been started. Unfortunately, besides deplore it, and deprecate it at every opportunity, there is not much more that can be done.

    If you, personally, do not participate more actively, where relevant, that is, on matters equidistant between India and Pakistan, on abstract topics, on conceptual issues which lend themselves to non-partisan comment, then this amazing site, as you rightly described it, will sink without a trace.

    That is the general intention of the lunatic fringe pack attacking the site in season and out of season.

    Giving up, not defending PTH, is not an option.

  107. Tilsim

    @ Amit Kumar

    ” I just want the Pakistani people to tell their government to stop sending Jihadi who are killing our people.”

    Do you think that the overwhelming number of Pakistanis posting and commenting on PTH are not doing that?

  108. Amit Kumar

    @Hayyer. i have no patient to read all your big post.. I do think any Indian has to get out and prove that Indian by and large is a liberal country. Its obvious. I do not think its a similar case for Pakistan or.Pakistani..

    Have you ever seen any Buddhist yelling and telling the world that our religion is for preaches peace..Why muslims all round the world has to clarify this?

  109. Amit Kumar

    correction..i meant “I donot think any Indian”

  110. Hayyer

    Amit:

    You are posting at the wrong site.

  111. Amit Kumar

    @Tilsim. If you are think yes.. than my purpose is solved. The other day i saw some one in telling in PTH that india is not serious and Mumbai just a stick..

    The reality is totally different. and all along Pakistan was denying and able to hoodwink the world while india was bleeding. one city after another. Today India has a full proof case. and if Pakistan continue to behave the way they are behaving now.. i expect my government to take firm action. I am not interested in any kind of peace. i think indian security interest is better served if we are in a state of war.

  112. victor h.

    Secularism means separation of church and state, but in India, it has commonly been equated to a common tenet of Hinduism, “sarva dharma samaabhaava”, which literally means that all dharmas are equal to or harmonious with each other.

    Pak Tea House has admirably stuck to the “more strict” meaning of secularism. It leads to a separation of concerns and makes them more tractable.

    There is nothing in India that is approximately comparable to this website, although there are progressive elements and sections who do share this position: I suspect that the Editorial in The Hindu, taking a clearheaded position on floods in Pakistan and India’s lack of response to them, was a direct result of PTH lamenting on the ostritch attitude of the Indian media.

    Indian visitors to PTH would do better, in my opinion, by attempting to engage in dialogue. All power to you.

  113. @Steven Gardiner

    If one of the various and sundry might make a point:

    //Raza’s article was, in my opinion, liberal in the true sense–it was a plea for civility, which is the prerequisite for discourse. Name-calling and categorical thinking is inherently anti-liberal–which does not mean it needs to be banned. But there should be no confusion, there is nothing illiberal about a private forum banning commentators who can’t abide by simple rules of civility, or deleting posts that are serve no purpose but self-serving and self-aggrandizing at the expense of real discussion.

    To be clear, I am not talking about “harsh criticism” but comments that make “us” / “them” distinctions and put all of “them” into the category of the “bad,” the “evil”–the people whom “we” can never trust.

    I think the moderators are doing a credible job attempting to foster a genuinely liberal discourse–please keep up the excellent work.//

    It is precisely this kind of us/them distinction that I sincerely feel needs to be banned, not because the people concerned don’t deserve a say – they emphatically do – but because they don’t deserve a say at the expense of breaking down a dialogue being set up with the greatest of difficulty.

    If you look at another post, by a moustache Pete calling himself Sardar Khan, that is the impression that the bulk of Pakistan’s people has about Indians. It doesn’t seem very clear how any kind of peace process is expected to achieve any tangible or sustainable result with this huge animosity looming between the two peoples.

    My right-wing fellow-countrymen never have got the point: that until we have started talking, and talking about substantive issues, we are in a state of not-talking, with all the temptations and compulsions that brings. Nor have they got the next logically following point, that having started to talk, at the beginning of the process, it is a little self-defeating to insist on a signed, sealed and notarised document in which one side acknowledges unilaterally that it has been a collective horses’ arse, and the other side are in the right of things, and always have been right, and will continue to be right in future. Instead of using the opportunity to build points of enquiry which may in time lead to increasingly wide-spread consensus-building, they like their gratification instant and with full-tone milk in it.

    In the face of this, while you have been very kind to the moderators, I would say that they have been responsible for the waste of several person-centuries of time.

  114. libertarian

    There was a time when first, YLH, then, after he tired, others, following his example, went straight after the more egregious offenders and stopped them before they spread from thread to thread to thread.

    If the folks running this site cared so deeply about propriety, insist on people revealing identity with Facebook/Twitter to post comments. Banning would be easier and would preclude the virtual reincarnation problem🙂

    I suspect having a “troll” component is beneficial. Gotta be a little National Inquirer along with pretending to be The Economist.

  115. @libertarian

    Interesting point. Sualeh Keen does that very successfully, and prefers the Facebook format to a blog format.

    Could you spend a few minutes on explaining how exactly it’d work? I post an article on PTH:”The importance of camel droppings in SS’s breakfast cereals.” So how do the comments go onto FB or on Twitter?

    ‘Course, working it out here doesn’t guarantee anyone in authority is going to like it or do anything about it. But it sounds like a good idea. More details? If you don’t mind.

  116. Girish

    Hayyer,

    Actually like you say, the site seems overly tolerant of abuse, but I would like to add that it seems quite intolerant to legitimate debate in some cases, especially for topics that relate to the history of the subcontinent. If you spew nonsense about Islam and Muslims, you are not touched for quite some time. If you happen to stray from the site’s preferred narrative on history, your post will be deleted even if all it contains is a quote from some person meant to counter an argument made by somebody else.

    I agree with you that there are a bunch of hate mongers who come here, with no desire to engage but only to insult. Their hate speech should have no place here. But many here are quick to dismiss every Indian who does not agree with the supposed consensus here as a rabid Hindutva-spouting right wing nut. That is what I am pointing to.

  117. Raju Brother

    @Vajra,

    like always you work like a secretary, perhaps correcting syntax here and there, always conscious of the tone to use, etc, always using foul language and childish personal attacks to talk to other Indian posters, something you probably picked up from your friends. If you love such a hobby, fine!

    So let’s do your experiment here of substitution.

    There is no coercion, but there will also be no peace if honourable terms is a euphemism for Pakistani concessions.

    Now you tell me, which party keeps on pulling India to the peace table, either by asking the USA to push pressure on India to come to the peace table or otherwise. India speaks of terrorism where as Pakistan speaks of ‘comprehensive peace’. If Pakistan stops terrorism today, there is no more need for talks about peace. We don’t have any issues, that we need to discuss with Pakistan.

    Secondly we have no angst of loss of honor here. We hold all what Pakistan desires. Kashmir, Water, Siachen, etc. Why would we be losing any honor?

    Thirdly, what are the Pakistani concessions? Not to cause terror!!! Gimme a break!

    Only a warped Indian mind would think, that the above sentence makes any sense at all!

    Regarding my ‘sweeping statements’ on Indian policy, perhaps it would do you good to read a bit of what is written by the Indian security experts to have a better idea of the thinking in corridors of power in India.

    Of course the jholawalas and Marxists in India may not be privy to Government corridors anymore, once MMS showed them the middle finger.

    Put very bluntly, an average Pakistani, more so an average Pakistani liberal has an extremely poor impression about Indians in general, and about intellectual capability in particular. They have every reason to; all the evidence is quite suggestive.

    Man I am sorry for you, when I see how much you suffer with this inferiority complex, especially when there is no need.

    BTW, am I observing a slight agreement with me on your part on the question of Muslim Chauvinism?

    If you can get a man called PMA to speak to you, an unlikely proposition

    Is he the man who also keeps on saying ‘Peace Talks should begin’, without an iota of understanding, that there is no interest in Pakistani Establishment for the success of the talks, but rather only for a process with hiccups and stops. The talks are merely for the Army to be seen as being taken seriously by the own constituency and the American patrons, as a respectable party. If you don’t mind, I don’t think PMA can tell me anything new.

    some Pakistanis are aware that Indian liberals consider that they too face some difficulties within Indian society.

    //In the end, I would just say that if PTH wishes to remain free of irritating Indians, like me, it would be best for PTH to bar all Indians.//

    No, that does not logically follow.

    So I guess, you are a refugee here on PTH, either forced into exile, or having yourself applied for asylum, and wouldn’t know where else to turn to!

    Vajra,

    your little sniping with “little man” and the above post by you does confirm that you have a serious inferiority complex. I wish I could so something to help you, but I have no experience with this sort of thing. Neither do I know Madam Pomfrey personally who could have grown you a back-bone! Just one request, please try not to bequeath your dhimmitude to your kids! They deserve some self-confidence in themselves as Indians.

  118. Tilsim

    @ Amit Kumar

    I do think yes.

    You said: “i think indian security interest is better served if we are in a state of war.”

    That is for you to discuss with your compatriots. Powerful elements within our security apparatus appear to think in the same way. I disagree with them.

    That said, I think that hostility from Indians makes Pakistanis fearful and prone to conspiracy theories and makes the life of those of us (like many people on PTH) who desire a complete break with the concept of proxy war, impossible.

  119. libertarian

    @Vajra: But it sounds like a good idea. More details? If you don’t mind.

    Not sure how it integrates into WordPress – I usually roll my own web properties. But Facebook provides a javascript snippet that creates a “Login with Facebook” (or “Logout”) button (reference here). Huffingtonpost has a neat implementation. Suspect Twitter has something similar. Not rocket science.

    If you controlled the backend – which PTH does not – you could use the oauth information from Facebook to register users on your site.

  120. Tilsim

    @Amit

    “i think indian security interest is better served if we are in a state of war.”

    I will just add here that the chances of our Islamists and the RSS coming to power are better served if we are in a state of war.

  121. This was a much needed post, and thanks Raza Sa’ab for this. Frankly, I really wish there was a similar liberal Indian web forum where we could discuss our issues too.
    It would be sad if certain crazy hate mongers prevented the open discussion of problems within Pakistan and regarding Indo-Pak issues as openly as one can on this blog.
    However, though I understand that these right wing fanatics should stay out of PTH, this could also be the place where we could hold them by their horns and bring them to see sanity and reason. Otherwise I am worried they might spend their entire lives writing hate notes on blogs like ‘I Hate Pakistan/India’, ‘ Say No to Peace with India/Pak!’, etc., and this wouldn’t serve any purpose in the long run.
    Thanks PTH for this great work, and (though YLH Bhai tends to lose his head once in while😉 following this blog has been a great learning experience.
    Warm Regards

  122. Girish

    BTW, I must add that the debates here are quite instructive and interesting. There are some distractions now and then, and if we just ignored them, leaving the moderators to get rid of abuse and hate speech, it would be a pretty good forum over all. I have personally learned a lot about issues ranging from history to hydrology. There are many decent folks posting here, and there is some incredibly level of knowledge amongst the set of participants, in subjects ranging from history to hydrology.

  123. Girish

    It seems like I inadvertently forgot to edit a part of the comment (hence the repeated reference to “history to hydrology”).

  124. @amit
    //”I am not interested in any kind of peace. i think indian security interest is better served if we are in a state of war.”//

    Rubbish.

    Totally.

    Indian security interest is better served by People Centric Development+Unyielding commitment to secularism

    Every other threat then will become a non-issue.

  125. Hola

    Punditjee you spout a lot of nonsense and rhetoric, how do what we do in India regarding our our people’s development is going to negate the terrorist threat emanating from Pakistan. You do not believe in “Akhand Bharat” theory, do you ?😉

  126. swapnavasavdutta

    Can anybody site at least one example of how
    hateful Indian interactors on PTH or other
    Pakistani liberal websites have altered ground
    reality in Pakistani adversely?

    Have posts from right-wing hindutva-wadi scuttled
    any initiatives that liberal pakistani websites had
    come up with in Pakistan?

  127. Hola
    August 24, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    //””how do what we do in India regarding our our people’s development is going to negate the terrorist threat emanating from Pakistan.””//

    What i wrote is too much for you to understand.

    Simple.

  128. no-communal

    @ Indian Pundit

    “Indian security interest is better served by People Centric Development+Unyielding commitment to secularism

    Every other threat then will become a non-issue.”

    Could you please care to explain this, especially in the context of our relation with Pakistan?

  129. no-communal

    Sorry I do not agree with Hola on many points, especially on his/her repeated requests to people with different views to migrate to Pakistan, but, Indian Pundit, like him I would also like to know more about your proposition. And I am saying this in all honesty, because this seems like a really new idea to solve our border disputes.

  130. @no-communal
    In the year 1971 , Indian army dismembered Pakistan . And thus Bangladesh was born.

    But the FACT is Pakistan created a condition which totally alienated Bengalis. West Pakistani rulers mis-treated , abused and discriminated against the bengali population of E.Bengal. This created resentment which facilitated Indian involvement and subsequent victory!

    The point here is INTERNAL DECAY of Pakistan. Had there been no such internal decay then there would have been no Bangladesh.

    Now lets come to what i said……an Internally strong India where there is massive people centric development in a secular manner will be the WORST NIGHTMARE of India’s enemies.

    Most of you dont understand the SIMPLE FACT that most of the terror attacks are simply an act of “exploiting” our Internal weaknesses!!

  131. Hola

    Punditjee your veiled suggestion that Indian Muslims are somehow involved in these terrorist attacks is extremely vile and reprehensible. They are much more patriotic than the likes of you.

  132. Few questions……

    1)Why so many Kashmiri youths throwing stones these days???…..certainly Pak cannot orchestrate such massive rallies. Pak can only push terrorist in India and NOTHING MORE…….simply because of the massive presence of Indian army in Kashmir.

    Also i am sure you know that Kashmir is teeming with massive number of Indian intelligence agents of every color !!

  133. @Hola
    //”Punditjee your veiled suggestion that Indian Muslims are somehow involved in these terrorist attacks is extremely vile and reprehensible. They are much more patriotic than the likes of you.”//

    Another cheap-shot.

    Where did i made such a claim??

    Nonsense.

  134. Anand

    Raza ji,

    i regularly visit pth but rarely comment.
    i like your articles and aslo those of ylh, khalid, rumi and others. in this article your views are quite pertinet. plz do not be disheartened, the majority is silent and supportive of your efforts. believe me there are many like me. I, as a akhbarwala myself, wont say much. For all of you here at pth, i would like to share some lines from the great Dushyant Kumar. i feel these would convey my feelings.

    MERE SEENE MEN NAHIN
    TERE SEENE MEN SAHI,

    HO KAHIN BHI AAG
    LEKIN JALNI CHAHIYE.

    SIRF HUNGAMA KHADA KARNA MERA MAQSAD NAHIN,

    SARI KOSHISH HAI KI YE SOORAT BADALNI CHAHIYE.

    Keep it up, you are not alone.

  135. Hola

    Punditjee, you are hopping all over the place in your dhoti aren’t you ? Earlier you were making claims about how solving our internal problems will shut off the terror tap from Pakistan. Now you have dragged in the Kashmir issue. So here is my answer:

    1. Kashmiri Indians like any other Indian have legitmate right to express protest.

    2. Their protests were hijacked by the Pakistani agents and secessionists in the Valley and the protests turned into riots. Most of the participants were youngsters who hardly realize what is the meaning and consequences of that much repeated slogan “azadi”.

    3. More than 1200 Kashmiri police personnel were injured. In the crowd control about 70 Kashmiri Indians were also injured, some from unfortunate accidents like tear gas lobbing, some were crushed in mobs and others miscreants suffered when they tried to fire bomb a police stations and explosives there exploded.

    4. The protests in Kashmir were not “massive” by Indian standards and were limited to few urban centers. Are you aware the number of people who participated in Gujjar strikes and chakka jams organized by your beloved Marxists in their strongholds ?

    5. Normal Kashmiri Indians are now paying these secessionist thugs in their own coin. There have been recent reports regarding how they are stoning the stoners😉

  136. Hola

    * 70 Kashmiri Indians also died*

  137. Raza Raja

    @ Ananad thanks bro

    I can see that majority is now speaking and understanding that rationality should prevail. I am actually happy that majority of indians have responded very positively on this thread. Even those who are in disagreement are showing visible signs that they are prepared to modify.

    I believe in innate goodness in majority of people and I am glad that it is being confirmed.

    I do not expect the Indians to agree with every pakistani view point. Obviously Pakistani state has been guilty of certain things. All i wanted was to to show that certain type of behaviour can lead to bad blood and nothing else.

  138. PMA

    Vajra: “I was searching searching and then I found it” as some Indians would say, in English of course. Your post of August 24, 2010 at 5:31 pm was just excellent. After some ‘searching searching’ I found myself buried under a heap of words. And then I decided to write these few words myself, forgetting to read rest of the comments. Now if you excuse me I have to go back where I left the thread.

  139. Hola
    August 24, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    Your posts shows what happens when propaganda goes to a person’s head!

  140. Hola
    August 24, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    //”4. The protests in Kashmir were not “massive” by Indian standards and were limited to few urban centers.”//

    //* 70 Kashmiri Indians also died*//

    Curious.

    Not massive still 70 died.

    In Kolkata , massive protests often happen.
    Never so many die.

    What may be the cause?

  141. Parvez

    Please don’t ban Hindu hatemonger. Where would I go to find out their thinking?

  142. no-communal

    @Hola and Indian Pundit.
    Kashmir is a completely new can of worms. Since I contributed somewhat in prodding Indian Pundit to explain his following words,

    “Indian security interest is better served by People Centric Development+Unyielding commitment to secularism

    Every other threat then will become a non-issue”,

    I feel a little responsibility to request both of you to not open this discussion in this thread. Of course, you can do whatever you wish as long as the moderators are fine with it.

    My only comment to Indian Pundit’s subsequent reply,
    “an Internally strong India where there is massive people centric development in a secular manner will be the WORST NIGHTMARE of India’s enemies.”
    is that increasing one’s enemy’s (in this case, I believe Pakistan’s) nightmares may not be a good way to resolve what are essentially border disputes.

    That of course does not mean that we do not need
    ” People Centric Development+Unyielding commitment to secularism”, but confusion between various issues is not a good idea.

  143. androidguy

    Can we all go back to discussing the pertinent issues of the day now? The floods haven’t subsided as yet. I suggest to the sane posters here to simply ignore the crazies from both sides and get along with debating what is truly important.

  144. Amit Kumar

    @Indian Pundit
    “Indian security interest is better served by People Centric Development+Unyielding commitment to secularism”

    I completely agreed.. and for the same reason i am advocating in a state of war with Pakistan. We cannot force peace on them. India is not such a great power. Mumabi attack happened because Zardari talked of peace and no first use nuclear policy. same happened when Nawz Shaarif and Benazir tried to do. We should talk peace when Pakistani Army is ready for peace. Like we did with Musharaf.

    “Unyielding commitment to secularism” what the heck it has to do with friend ship with Pakistan. Mumbai attack did not resulted in any communal tension. Pleas give me a break.

    “Why so many Kashmiri youths throwing stones these days???” I feel bad for them. They are indian and they should find a leader and present their demand democratically. Remember how may Gujjar died in the agitation. I would say to Kashmiri the same what Rajiv said to Mizos/ Nagas/Assames/Punjabi..

    “what you guys want is power. You can’t get it no matter how many guns you have, how many Indians you kill. But come back to your people, and if they give you what they sometimes give my party, it’s all yours”

    I agree with the Former Afghanistan ambassador to Pakistan in his book – My Life With The Taliban by Abdul Salam Zaeef (Pages 234)

    Pakistan, which plays a key role in Asia, is so famous for treachery that it is said they can get milk from a bull. They have two tongues in one mouth, and two faces on one head so they can speak everybody’s language; they use everybody, deceive everybody. They deceive the Arabs under the guise of Islamic nuclear power, saying that they are defending Islam and Islamic countries. They milk America and Europe in the alliance against terrorism, and they have been deceiving Pakistani and other Muslims around the world in the name of Kashmiri jihad. But behind the curtain, they have been betraying everyone.

    Like all you guys i need peace.. but after reading several books including by current Ambasadoor of Pakistan to USA.. i am convinced that unless Pakistan is completly under and civilan control and ISI is dismatled.. there will be no peace.. and India should wait for that day.

  145. no-communal

    @ Amit Kumar
    “Pakistan, which plays a key role in Asia, is so famous for treachery that it is said they can get milk from a bull.”

    No matter where you get that quote from, it is simply not nice to say it here, not now. Everything has a context. When somebody is abusive about India, it may be justified to pay back. But everywhere? everytime? simply because somebody carry the tag “Pakistani”? How would we feel if others constantly bring up Gujarat, or Sikh riot, no matter what other topic is under discussion? Wouldn’t we say, “to hell with you people” ?. Wouldn’t that shut any discussion off? Then why come to this blog, if we really do not want to engage? There are countless others where only abuses are exchanged.

    The bloggers here have categorically condemned ALL terrorist acts from their soil. What more can they possibly do? Of course people should express their grievances/divergent opinions about this issue or another. But there is a limit to how much insult people can take about their own country.

    As Indians, we should know this, and try to respect it.

  146. Raza Raja

    @no-communal

    Sir this was perhaps the most spot on post.

    Thanks for understanding the core issue.

    Even now if someone just goes through the articles which PTH is posting, he/she will immediately realize that most of the time we are strongly condemning our society and its own bigotry.

    Even my own previous writings seriously criticize pakistani general mindset. I am sharing a link

    https://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/terrorism-shameless-religious-bigotry-and-pakistani-mindset/

    But you have so rightly pointed out that constant references to certain things no matter what the topic is by Indians will provoke the response which you have pointed out.

  147. Amit Kumar

    @no-communal..
    i agree with you.. i did not know much about Pakistan. apart from all the regular partition story. and i used to take indian govt stand very suspiciously but after Mumabi.. i read several books of some Pakistani and independent authors.. i cannot believe that we were subjected to such a trauma all these years.

    but you are right that i might have hurted good Pakistani brother who wants peace. and i tender my apology .. I am just 24.

    I think Pakistan should give up its enmity with India and fight his war with his own. It should take help from India instead begging from USA. It should shed its Hindu/Muslim thing.. and come forward withe complete peace proposal. Indirectly this will also Indian muslims.. who are being recruited by ISI for its proxy war. Pakistan should not forget the support it got during partition from Muslims that are still in India.

    Its better to make Kashmir’s LOC as border and make this border very soft so that Kashmiri can enjoy freedom they deserve without compromising india/pakistan’s sovereignty. I read all the recent survey on that and i find this is the only solutions.

    Gujarat, or Sikh riot are internal indian matter, it was not directed against any third country thats difference we shud keep in mind.

  148. Raza Raja

    @Amit kumar

    Your most recent post clearly suggsts that minsets can change and we can come together.

    Very well said

    I am actually positively amazed that an overwhelming majority has shown positive response

  149. Amit Kumar

    @Raza Raja.
    Thanks and i appreciate your effort.

    i am from a village in Bihar. my grand father was a small land lord and a Gandhian/Nehru follower freedom fighter.
    There were around 20 muslim family in my village and during partition every body stayed at my home and till now muslim community of my village live without any problem. Infact now they have earned good money and are buying property we or any one want to sell.

    These are the same muslims whose interest were completely ignored by Jihan and other leaders. I talked with them, they still have a soft corner for Pakistan and want to see a friendly relationship. This angle is completely ignored in whatever i have read in Pakistani newspaper and blogs. All ti see crocodile tears for Indian Muslims, and trying to recruit some poor guy for Jihad. That will hurt Indian muslim further.

  150. no-communal

    “These are the same muslims whose interest were completely ignored by Jihan and other leaders. I talked with them, they still have a soft corner for Pakistan and want to see a friendly relationship. This angle is completely ignored in whatever i have read in Pakistani newspaper and blogs. All ti see crocodile tears for Indian Muslims, and trying to recruit some poor guy for Jihad. That will hurt Indian muslim further.”

    This is a very sensitive issue. PTH, even though it is a Pakistan-centric forum, could approach some Indian muslim (definitely not Dastagir) to open this for honest and frank discussion. I don’t know if it already has been taken up, but the last sentence in Amit’s comment – the blowback effect of Pakistani state policies on Indian muslims – is a very serious issue indeed.

  151. Parvez

    Kumar, finally somebody raised the issue of Indian Muslims. Do they have voice, I think not. They don’t come to this blog and support Pakistani liberal group. They are supposed to be major beneficiary of secular democracy. They would carry lot more credibility. India is simply a sham secular democracy.

  152. Parvez

    Let’s not talk about Indian Muslims. It is highly flammable and sensitive issue. We don’t want to hurt somebody’s sentiments.

  153. Mahesh B.

    Parvez,

    How many Pakistanis read this blog?

  154. singh

    I recently started reading this blog and I have been very impressed with some of the articles and discussions that I’ve read. It’s always a challenge to weed through comments that have little to do with the discussion at hand but are merely posted to spew hatred. Ban the habitual bigots who add little to the discussion and comment primarily for hate mongering. Your blog and you have the controls.

    And please keep the thought provoking and informational dialogue going.

    From a desi American with aman ki asha.

  155. no-communal

    @Parvez,
    “Do they have voice, I think not. They don’t come to this blog and support Pakistani liberal group. India is simply a sham secular democracy..”

    I don’t know what country you are from or what picture you have of Indian muslims. But let me assure you of one fact: there are many Indian muslims who post here on PTH, so let’s not get there. And please do not assume that they will voice their opinion in a blog simply based on what religion they practise at home. They have, by and large, got over that impulse, and that is a very, very good thing for interstate relations because it reduces one more complicating factor.

    You are right, let’s not talk about it in a future post, because posters like you will hijack the discussion by “thinking” about them (“Do they have voice, I think not”).

  156. Vijay Goel

    @Parvez You can visit nationandtheworld.com and you can read the powerful voices of Indian Muslims

  157. Amit Kumar

    @Parvez. i am not a regular follower of PTH.. what ever i said is based on my experience,, Muslims in my village have prospered more than Hindu.. not because of any conspiracy but because they were more interested in business than in agriculture or govt jobs.

    My point was that. the ISI agenda to radicalize and recruit Indian muslims will hurt indian muslims. as its hurting Pakistani muslims. I have observed Pakistani people always shed crocodile tears for Indain muslims..which Indian muslims do not like. .. i do not have any expertise on this issue and my obersation is based on only my village experience.

    “Kumar, finally somebody raised the issue of Indian Muslims. Do they have voice, I think not”
    There is a election my state Bihar in October..Please follow the news if you have time and you will get the answer.

    “India is simply a sham secular democracy.” Thanks very much. India do not need any certificate from anyone. If you are a Pakistani then i wish you all the best to purify your land and become a perfect Islamic state. If you are an Indian then i would advise you to fight to achieve a perfect secular democracy i am with you.

    I find “@no-communal” a sensible man..and follow his advise and not discuss this issue further.

  158. no-communal

    @Amit Kumar
    Aug. 25, 2010, at 3:06 am.

    Thanks, Amit, very rightly said.

  159. Amit Kumar

    @Parvez. Here is the fact from 1971 war.. (taken from book From Midnight to the Millenium). just wanted to bring to notice to my Pakistani friends..

    When Prime Minister Indira Gandhi traveled abroad in the tense months before the 1971 Bangladesh War with Pakistan, the Council of Ministers was chaired by a Muslim, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed. during that war, the indian Air force in the northern sector was commanded by a Muslim, Air Marshal (later retired Air chief Marshal) Latif. The Army commander was a Parsi General Sam Manekshaw. The general officer commanding the forces that marched into Bangladesh was a Sikh, General Jagjit Singh Aurora, and the general flown in to negotiate the surrender of Pakistani forces in in East Bengal, Major General J.F.R. Jacob was a jewish.

    I would also like to add, that Indira Gandhi refused to remove Sikh’s security guard becz she opposed any religion based removal of her guard.

  160. Parvez

    I do not consider myself a protector of Indian Muslims and Pakistan has no right to take any such stand. You guys have completely missed my point and let me copy a part of of my previous post:

    They are supposed to be major beneficiary of secular democracy. They would carry lot more credibility.

    This should be the hypothesis to strengthen liberal argument. Rest my comments are to get an emotional response from liberals from both sides of the divide.
    My position flows from equality and justice for all, all the time, at all places.
    I would elaborate this further later.

  161. Alakshyendra

    That is the silliest and most condescending piece of crap I have heard, and you will hear much more about it once Pakistanis grasp what you are saying, that Pakistani liberals are preparing a safe haven for themselves by striking up friendships with gullible Indian liberals.

    maybe you don’t hear what you speak, that is why it is you don’t seem to have heard it before, but let me assure you we keep hearing that from you all the time.

    Furthermore, most of them have better credentials than ours; of the moderators, two live abroad, the third has the capability to move whenever he wishes, and has enough of a network to cover this move well ahead of time.

    here’s one example of the stuff you were talking of in a previous paragraph. since when did living abroad and better mobility make for better credentials?

    look, you maybe more intelligent than the rest of us put together, but you get so carried away by your own eloquence and the expectation of applause from your pakistani audience that you come up with absolute howlers.

    They are extremely polite people, and are nowhere near as verbally belligerent as we are.

    there you go again! i’m sure you’ve been here far longer than i have, and yet if you haven’t come across some very boorish behavior from the pakistani side (and this includes one of the moderators who once threatened to leave pth if a certain poster was not banned forthwith) then what can i say except that you have a very selective memory?

  162. Amit Kumar

    @Parvez
    As you said “equality and justice for all, all the time, at all places”. Thats the promise of Indian constitution. Every indian citizen have to fight for this. Its going to be a long journey with lots of bumps.

    Its not a favor to anyone and its done for the benefit of all. Its the fundamental rights of every indian citizen which even prime minister of India cannot dare to deny.

    For me The idea of India is a greatest political experiment in human history. Its success is linked with 1/6th of Humanity. I believe in this idea. Its an idea which is worth fighting for. not for any religion, race, language and ethnicity but for a greater cause of humanity.

  163. Amit Kumar

    @Parvez
    For your repeated below statement..
    “They are supposed to be major beneficiary of secular democracy. They would carry lot more credibility”

    As i have said in my previous post.. “secular democracy” is not a favour to any one. its a fundamental right.

    “more credibility”. please read my post about 1971 war.. i gave you one simple example from history that made Pakistani General india a Hindu kaafir worthy of death.

  164. Gorki

    ‘Basically if PTH did not have any Indian Liberals falsely promising the Pakistanis here some separate Indo-Pak peace and concessions, there would also be no Indian nationalist right-wing assholes like me on PTH, calling the Indian Marxists bluff’

    I don’t think that is the only reason Raju Brother. I think the real reason is that PTH is a unique window into a Pakistan that we never knew existed; that of sincere, articulate, well read, and secular minded Pakistanis; the kind we did not think even existed. Educated and well read Indians of all political shades find it irresistible because it gives us a chance to interact with our opposite number and indulge in an intelligent debate.

    There are a lot of misconceptions. Contrary to popular beliefs; the Indian regulars here are not doves by any definition. Like you, I am fiercely nationalistic and proud of my country; so are Vajra and Hayyer; perhaps even more so.
    Similarly, I tend to agree with Girish to some extent that stereotyping not all Indians who are rude, contemptuous and sarcastic are right-wingers or Hindutva devotees. I think most of them are nationalists with varying degrees of chauvinism. Even that may be too broad a generalization. I suspect some of them are merely posturing; determined to present a tough and unyielding pose to the adversary.
    I think some of this stems from national pride but a lot from ignorance because till now we have never known the people of our kind and our generation on the other side of the fence. In the last 63 a lot of things went wrong; but the single worst thing that happened was that almost all people to people contact ground to a halt.

    Ironically because of 26/11 many of us have now become very interested in Pakistan and some of us are eagerly catching up on all that we never knew existed next door all along. That it happened due to an attack on our country means that most Indians do not come here necessarily looking to make friends in the first instance; in fact some of them come with outright hostility. It does not mean they are inherently bigoted; only that they come with preconceived notions; a function of their life long isolation from each other.

    Nothing else could have been expected realistically under the circumstances when such an unprecedented group of people have suddenly become interested in an opposite number and have an opportunity to debate and know each other. I believe this is the first and opening phase of contact; in time, once both sides have had a chance to interact and size each other up, we will realize that most labels will not fit.
    Words such as liberal, right-winger, Islamists even seculars are too general and hope fully will be discarded in the favor of more accurate descriptive terms.

    For example, while I do not agree with most of your views about Pakistan Raju Bhai, I find it hard to honestly label you either as a bigot or as a Hindutva type. You are too smart a man for that; I suspect you are nothing but a staunch and unyielding nationalist. It is not a crime to be that; I believe most of us are; we just view our national interests and priorities differently. Because you are also a very eloquent and a sharp debater; I suspect you will actually like debating PMA Sahib; who I believe you will find an interesting man, in some was your opposite number. I also believe that Indian liberals or not, you will keep coming back to the PTH. I mean both of these statements as compliments.

    I believe the debate among all shades of opinion is a healthy process for all concerned unless the Pakistani moderators feel that such a debate is distracting them from their real goal which Habib Raja laid out so eloquently:

    ‘I believe We at Pak Tea House firmly believe that the two neighbours should bury the hatchet and move forward. There are so many issues which are our common issues and we admit that our side has also been guilty of rumor mongering and a state sponsored cultivation of institutionalized hatred of India which was primarily done to ensure integrity of the state and to carve out justification of a large army. For these reasons we are constantly striving to cultivate a favourable image of India.’

    In time PTH will lead to understanding; and healing.

    Regards

  165. Parvez

    Kumar, A constitution not only gives the rights but also makes it obligatory for state to enforce the laws under it. People have no obligation for fight for their right again and again. Please don’t give me tokens examples as proof of a proposition.
    I’m talking about “Justice and equality” not high positions and number of millionaires. If you don’t understand simple concepts, I won’t press you further.
    Let me add that enforcement is not any better in Pakistan, only that reaction is more severe.

  166. Raza Raja

    @Gorki

    that was brilliant and very intelligently argued

    Just to clarify, the word rightwinger was not to bracket all the indians but only typical sort.

  167. Amit Kumar

    @Gorki .. well said.. sahi bola bhai.. i will make a confession. before 26/11 ..i did not know that Pakistan is known as Islamic republic..after that i saw some Zaid Hamid videos with young university students crowds .. Rock stars and fashion designer introducing him. i was shocked.. then i read few books about Pakistan. Book by Hussain Haquani gave me great insight.

    I will ponder on your views and I will also try to contribute to the goal of PTH.

    @Parvez. mere bhai.who is the state.. its people.. its electorate. so ultimatly its people who have to make noise on each and every injustice and keep the state on its towes.. soone se kaam nahi chalega..

  168. Amit Kumar

    @Parvez. mere bhai..

    “I’m talking about Justice and equality not high positions and number of millionaires. If you don’t understand simple concepts, I won’t press you further.”

    I guess you mean to say that. there are several Indian muslims who are at “high positions”, millionaires, or flim star . but “Justice and equality” is denied to general Indian muslims.

    Than i will suggest you to send e-mails to all those big Indian muslims names and plead your cause. This kaafir Hindu.. whom you think will never treat muslims with “Justice and equality” will not solve problems.

    let me also add..I do not agree with you. i lived in poorest state of india. Its the poor man in India for whom “Justice and equality” is denied. It has nothing to do with religion. At the same time if you work hard you can reach your goal.I can only give you an example of one of my idol. Former Indian president APJ Abdul Kalam .. who was a son of a boat renter from a village of south India he worked hard and moved up in his life and also became president of India. Please hear his words. that will give you better idea about Indian muslims for which you are so concerned. – http://www.abdulkalam.com/

  169. Girish

    Gorki,

    Loved your post as always. It is interesting that you mention 26/11 as that important moment that made you seek out more information about Pakistan and Pakistanis. For me, that moment came more than 17 years ago, on March 12, 1993. It was the day Bombay was first bombed, with more casualties (~250 dead) than the 2008 attacks (~175 dead). My sister’s workplace was next to the Mumbai stock exchange – one of the main sites to be bombed. I still remember the terror of trying to reach her for 7 hours (the rest of the family including me was out of town that day) before we discovered that she was fine. Only to discover soon afterwards that our neighbor’s son, who happened to be visiting the Air India building on that day was not as lucky and died in the bombing there. The previous few weeks had been traumatic enough for this most cosmopolitan city in India (one that had seen no significant riot in its history), with the Shiv Sena running amok. The blasts took away whatever innocence was left in us.

    The entire experience was repeated in June, 1999, when a schoolmate who had gone on to join the army lost his life in the Kargil war. A needless conflict thrust on us soon after the most meaningful effort any Indian PM had unilaterally taken to put the ghosts of partition behind us, symbolized most powerfully by Vajpayee’s visit to the Minar-e-Pakistan. I believe the Kargil conflict was the real turning point in most of the views of the Indian middle-class about Pakistan. 26/11 was merely a confirmation of the views that had formed since 1999.

    Then came the December 1999 hijacking of the Indian Airlines flight IC 814. Once again, I got personally involved in it, as a friend was on the flight. His family and all of us friends remained glued to our television sets for a week, hoping and praying that the passengers would be safe. The fact that the hijack had been masterminded by Pakistan, the way in which Pakistan’s proxy, the Taliban helped the hijackers rather than the passengers, the denials that the hijackers were in Pakistan and the brazen manner in which the terrorists who had been released as ransom in exchange for 148 passengers were allowed to set up terrorist outfits further hardened attitudes in India.

    Every year since saw at least one major city in India attacked. Mumbai for instance saw blasts in 2003 and again in 2006, which took over 200 innocent lives – of passengers headed back from work. The Delhi serial blasts targeted shoppers going about their Diwali and Eid shopping. Until September 2001, there was not even a semblance of an attempt to disguise the fact that the terrorists enjoyed official Pakistani Government support. I remember Musharraf justifying them as freedom fighters and outrightly denying that freedom fighters targeted civilians in the infamous breakfast at Agra broadcast on live television. And after 2001, the focus turned to merely hiding this relationship from public view – the relationship between the military and the terrorists continued.

    And then came 26/11 of course. Once again there was a personal connection. A college mate (who was in my hostel and hence closer than the normal college friend) ended up being “executed” by the terrorists in the Oberoi hotel. He was part of the group that also included a Turkish couple (featured in the Channel 4/HBO/CNN documentary). Fortunately, while he was shot, it was not fatal and he lived to tell the tale. He feigned death and the terrorists did not shoot him again.

    So you see, an entire generation has been scarred by terrorism officially supported and abetted by the Government of Pakistan and its military. I have been personally scarred by it, but I am by no means unique in this respect. Even those without a personal connection to the incidents have grown up seeing it on television. And this has to some extent warped our perspective of looking at Pakistan. In the process, we may see Pakistan with some degree of bias. Only engaging on a sustained basis helps remove the single-colored tint in our eyes and helps us see the full spectrum of colors represented in Pakistani society. Of differentiating between the army and the feudal politician and the average middle-class person and the Islamist and the rock artist and the student and the articulate lawyer and…. That has at least been my personal experience.

    This sustained effort requires patience on all sides. There are Indians who come here merely to abuse and insult. No amount of patience will help in their case since they are interested in a monologue, not in a dialogue. Their hate speech should be shown no tolerance. However, there are others who are interested in a dialogue. They may have a biased perspective. But instead of shutting them down (or shouting them down), which only makes their perspective even more biased, a better approach would be to let the discussion run its course, sans abuse of course. And it is not a one-way street – it will not just create a more balanced view about Pakistan and Pakistanis and their concerns among Indian visitors, it would also likely give a more balanced view about India and Indians and their concerns to the Pakistani pariticipants. That will serve PTH’s motives, to the extent that it involves creating a constituency for peace between our two countries, better than merely having a set of “consensus positions” that a small set of (potentially unrepresentative) participants claim to have arrived at 2 years ago, forever to be frozen in time.

  170. Majumdar

    As the long standing resident Indian right winger on PTH from its infancy days I strongly condemn the insinuation against right wingers.

    I suggest the article title be modified to read “Liberal Pakistani websites and Hindoo hatemongers” instead.

    Regards

  171. Bade Miya

    Girish,
    Are you referring to Tyagi who escaped being killed in the Bombay stand off? He is a friend of mine.

  172. YLH

    Girish mian,

    Also, visitors are abusive, but so are some of the moderators. There are people who contribute original thoughts, others whose only task here is to try to get everybody who disagrees with them banned

    If you start acting like a troll, you will be banned. Kapeesh? You don’t have any original ideas so don’t give yourself credit. The problem with Indians like you is that you feel that the only liberal point of view is the one that agrees with the Indian point of view. That in my opinion is inherently illiberal.

  173. Raza Raja

    @Grish and YLH

    Restrain has to be shown by all.

    Nevertheless I am pleased that an over whelming majority has spoken with maturity.

    Disagreement is the right, it is how you express it and with what intention which you express it.

  174. YLH

    Raza,

    On another note I’d say you read Girish’s last post carefully between the lines.

    In my view Girish mian is probably the most sinister and cynically bigoted character out there. His little soundbyte about “constituency of peace” is actually aimed at creating space for the “Indian point of view” on a website that is decidedly and self consciously a Pakistani liberal mouthpiece. As if there weren’t enough Indian sites already. He must hijack PTH as well.

    In other words… Girish can’t stomach that there is a Pakistani website that attaches itself to liberal causes without towing the Indian line and he and his cyber-army want to turn it into another chowk.com.

  175. Raza Raja

    Dear all the commentators. Thanks a lot for providing a fruitful discussion so far. I have been encouraged a lot

    All I can say is that all of us, from either side of the border, have to strive together for peace and harmony and for that we need to to show restrain.

    There is another thing which i would like to say. often the word courage is much touted on internet. On internet frankly the issue is not of courage but responsibility. It is not our courage but responsibility which is tested.

    WHY? because each one of us can say whatever he/she wants to without facing serious repurcussions. So all of us have to show that.

  176. libertarian

    OK everyone – Group Hug – bhai-bhai.

    Now can we go back to the regular – and awesomely fun – pi$$ing matches …

  177. Raju Brother

    Gorki wrote

    Because you are also a very eloquent and a sharp debater;

    Gorki jee, I used to consider myself a learned and eloquent nationalist until I met Indians that were far ahead of me, and I learned humility. Since then, I consider myself neither too learned nor excessively eloquent. Neither do I find sufficient time to read all the stuff, that one ought to be reading, nor is English my primary European language. There is a whole world out there with Indians who are just as nationalist, if not more, far more learned than I would ever be with an eloquence, whose primary purpose is not to demean the intellectuality of others with personal attacks.

    I suspect you will actually like debating PMA Sahib; who I believe you will find an interesting man, in some was your opposite number.

    As far as debating PMA is concerned, I’ve read some of his views. They are known to me. I’ve been an observer for quite some time of the psyche, rhetoric and behavior of the Pakistani Establishment – the Army, the politicians, the militants, the media, and the affluent. There is an evolution vector for Pakistan, and everything that takes place, only strengthens that vector. The PTH is a side show, albeit an entertaining one.

    The biggest prisoner in Pakistan is not the people, but the Army, for the Army is stuck between a rock and the deep sea. It is another variant of Pakistan’s cyclic debt. The debt increases with time, and there is little one can do about it. Similarly the Army has created too many battlefields, that it is difficult to withdraw –
    made itself the sole working institution in Pakistan;
    a) allowed Army to become a career not just for service but for wealth accumulation as well;
    b) involved itself too deeply with superpower politics;
    c) involved itself too deeply in Afghan-Pushtun politics;
    d) involved itself in an arms race with a much larger rival;
    e) bit the Jihad apple;
    etc.

    Each one of the above drivers are cyclic burdens. It is entangling oneself in a spider’s web. The more one moves the more entangled one gets.

    The Pakistani Army may think they are fleecing the Americans through this ‘Global War on Terror’ or that they are using China to counteract India. The truth is that Pakistan is willing to get into the quicksand and pull India into it as well, while USA or China stand on the shore looking on, stuffing Pakistan with bars of ‘Mars’.

    Someday India may just break free and come out of the quicksand, but Pakistan will drown. Not because India pushed Pakistan into the quicksand, but rather because it itself chose to go in. The situation has deteriorated to an extent, that the only thing that is keeping Pakistan from drowning is that Pakistani Army is still clutching on to India and not letting go, thence getting more foreign aid for its sustenance.

    This situation however is unstable. India is growing rapidly militarily, economically and socially, whereas Pakistan’s population is out of control. It is only a matter of time, when Pakistan will see its strength fading and its hold on India loosening.

    Mind you, PRC, USA, Saudi Arabia, UK, etc. simply stand on the shore and watch as Pakistan wrestles India. They are not getting their hands dirty in a wrestling match with India. Only Pakistan is mad enough to do that.

    When the war in Afghanistan ends, what does one suppose will happen to all those Jihadi volunteers who went there? Not all can be sent over to Kashmir, nor can all be given ploughs and told to till land. India would be ready for the mujahids in Kashmir, and there will be international pressure on Pakistan to not to overdo it. All those Jihadis will make Lahore, Quetta, Peshawar, Rawalpindi, etc. their homes, and they will be having lots of spare time on their hands to kill (I mean kill time, but pun still intended).

    So it is Pakistani Army which is riding a tiger, unable to unmount it. It is Pakistani Army that is a prisoner of its policies to an extent, that they cannot change their policies.

    So when Pakistan asks for talks, it is not as if the Pakistani Army is seriously considering making peace with India, because that would be suicidal on so many fronts; it is simply a tactic to extract respect and legitimacy. The current thinking in Pakistani Army would continue to prevail.

    I have actually digressed too much from what I wanted to say, which was that any votary of Pakistan’s security establishment (e.g. PMA) would be hard-pressed to surprise me or convincingly refute this view, which in some form or another is held by a substantial number of Indians.

    Words such as liberal, right-winger, Islamists even seculars are too general and hope fully will be discarded in the favor of more accurate descriptive terms.

    Gorki jee,
    how about the term – Muslim chauvinist?

    There is no reason why a Hindu and a Muslim cannot live as neighbors, as friends, in peace.

    But there is definitely a reason why India and Pakistan cannot live in peace, and the reason is Muslim Chauvinism. There are some indicators of this mindset –
    a) a sense of entitlement, as if the world owes them something,
    b) a sense of historical injustice for forfeiting their historical right to rule over the Indian subcontinent
    c) racial superiority over Hindus, and as such the need to portray a people of the Indian Subcontinent (the Pakistanis) as owing their roots primarily to Turks, Persians, Arabs, Greeks, etc.

    There are of course many other indicators of warped thinking, but those would then be indicative of Islamism as well.

    So the issue I have with Pakistanis is not whether they are Islamists or Pakistani Liberals. That is an internal issue for them to sort out, and as an Indian, an outsider, I don’t really give two hoots about that struggle. What interests me, is whether Pakistanis are willing to do major surgery on their minds, and get rid of a mindset which from where I am standing is not just laughable, but in my opinion, the root cause of the Pakistani malaise.

    Muslim Chauvinism is something that is drip fed into Pakistanis along with hate propaganda from birth onwards. So I don’t know, how far it is possible to take it out of a Pakistani. Even if the Pakistanis manage to decrease their hate levels for Indians, it is difficult for them to let go of Muslim Chauvinism.

    Until that happens, when Muslims can manage to see Hindus as equals and having a shared genetic and cultural history, not much is going to come out of these peace endeavors. Mind you, it is not some favor the Muslims in Pakistan will be doing on Hindus, by changing their mindset. It is a favor they will be doing on to themselves, getting a psyche-wash, to make themselves compatible with the reality around them.

    There are some Indians who fall for such chauvinistic claims of Pakistanis. Such Indians, I feel, lack a sense of their own identity, and basically they are not really doing Pakistanis any service by pandering to their Muslim Chauvinism. They are just accentuating it, and making it difficult for the addict to come off his addiction.

    India’s economic rise and new status in the world is causing many difficulties for our neighbors to square the circle of their own superiority as they learned since childhood and the new 21st century reality. They are still resisting the reality. I am also sure, it will take another generation for them to acknowledge it, and another generation for them to adjust to it.

  178. Alakshyendra

    ah!! the “moderator” is at it again. threatening to ban people. mr. raza, i can understand if you do not want to pi$$ him off, but please don’t complain if people don’t take your claims of this being a liberal website seriously.

    i really respect you as one of the sanest voices here, but you only harm your cause by not acting against ALL perpetrators.

  179. @Raza Habib Raja

    I COMPLETELY support Majumdar Babu’s point of view on the title of this article, and his remarks on the question of right-wing versus hate-mongers. Without subscribing to his very different political stance, with which I have serious differences, he is quite right in saying that it is not the right-wing, but the lunatic fringe of hate-mongers, who have a rooted hatred for various aspects of Pakistan, who are a threat to PTH’s existence.

    Nothing in my post should be construed to be a statement of support for Majumdar Babu and his right-wing associates, and their bankrupt political position. It is just that they are not the enemy in this case, they are just different. And certainly not lunatic fringe.

  180. Majumdar

    Dada,

    hate-mongers, who have a rooted hatred for various aspects of Pakistan, who are a threat to PTH’s existence.

    There is no threat to PTH’s existence from hate mongers. All that is reqd is for serious commentators here to ignore such characters and for moderators to delete these comments from time to time.

    Majumdar Babu and his right-wing associates, and their bankrupt political position.

    Majumdar babu has no associates, his views are his own alone. The views that Majumdar babu holds are held by a majority of the “educated” people in subcontinent- whether Hindu or Moslem- although they may chose not to admit such views in public.

    Regards

  181. @Majumdar

    Your response summarises all that is wrong with the right wing. Try not to be right all the time😉, and as far as your second point goes, that remains to be proven. At this moment, you have to consider the possibility that you have progressed from being right in front to being left behind.
    😀

  182. YLH

    but please don’t complain if people don’t take your claims of this being a liberal website seriously.

    Everyone from New York Times to The Hindu (amongst others who have covered us extensively) takes our claim of being a liberal website very seriously… so it doesn’t matter if some Hindu fascist nuts think otherwise.

  183. PMA

    Raju Brother (August 25, 2010 at 2:32 pm):

    Gorki (August 25, 2010 at 10:33 am):

    My Dears, Raj and Maharaj:

    While the two of you are enjoying discussing Pakistan among yourselves so eloquently, would you leave this poor man alone. Have some decency. Would ya.

  184. Raju Brother

    @PMA

    I had no intention of dragging you in.

    Vajra and Gorki brought you to my attention, so I responded.

  185. Raju Brother

    @PMA

    However what you request would be difficult in the long term.

    You are a celebrity here, and as it seems you have tons of fans. I can try and withhold comment, but I think, you will have difficulty keeping your fans in check.🙂

  186. Girish

    I have been accused of being a bigot and a troll, both reasons to get banned and if the accusations are true, correctly so.

    I will not wait around to get banned. I will stop posting. There was an earlier occasion I got banned for a reason that was clearly not true. Another moderator agreed with this view and requested me to stay. I guess it was not the consensus view of the moderator team. It is not my intention to do anything here that causes difficulty for anybody else.

    It was nice engaging with some of the participants here. Goodbye and good luck to you. I started visiting here because of Raza Rumi and wish this admirable venture of his the very best.

    Adios everybody.

  187. Tilsim

    @Girish

    Yasser’s opinion of you and your motives are his own, I believe.

  188. Gorki

    Because I am the guilty party for being both a ‘fan’ and for ‘dragging’ the poor man; PMA Sahib into this discussion, I think I need to clarify a little.

    I am always interested in his views because although his views are divergent from the average liberal; he is a sensible, pragmatic man. He wants the same thing for his country that many of us desire for ours; safety and security; strong sense of nationhood and I believe a secular democratic society.
    I must say he represent the alternate views of the Pakistani liberal who is distrustful of India but does not hate us. Because of this he has often debated Pakistani liberals like BC, AZW and YLH on this forum.

    I believe there are many Indians like him; I may be wrong but I think Raju Brother is in the same category albeit from our side.

    While my own views are closer to the typical liberals mentioned above I recognize that divergent viewpoints do not mean divergent goals.
    Moreover PMA sahib is also a very well read man, and a writer. It will benefit our region if views like his are also discussed in Pakistan rather than the usual mindless conspiracy theorists of the Zaid Hamid kind. Similarly I believe we all do a disservice to liberalism if people like Raju Bhai are lumped with the likes of our Bal Thakarays and dismissed as Hindu bigots.

    Both RB and PMA represent views (which I believe are shared by many in their own countries), that they cannot trust the other side but couldn’t care less what happens to folks across the border as long as their own country remains secure.
    I do not believe that is possible without engagement but that is another discussion.

    Ultimately it will take a dialogue among all kinds of people for a lasting peace. It is best that we recognize that giving space to divergent views of pragmatic but secular minded individuals (even those who differ from us as to what is the best way to get there.
    It is best way to promote dialogue among all such people if the true bigots or those who seem (for the lack of a better word) fascist in outlook are to be marginalized.
    I don’t think PMA Sahib remotely falls in any of those categories.

    Regards.

  189. Gorki

    I don’t think PMA Sahib remotely falls in any of those categories= I don’t think either PMA Sahib or RB remotely fall in any of those categories

  190. Raza

    Congratulations on maintaining a very well written and well-updated blog. You are doing a great job!

    I sympathize with you on the subject of Indian right-wing. I myself have encountered these people on plenty of occasions in the past and they are absolute nutters!

    But the trick is in not getting bogged down by these people. Trust me, they are far and few between, at least in India.

    I am happy to come across your blog and would love to include you in my blogroll if I have your permission. You can find my blog at http://www.indianliberals.org.

    Cheers!
    AD

  191. lal

    @girish
    dont..agree with tislim..

  192. shiv

    @ Raju brother
    Mind you, PRC, USA, Saudi Arabia, UK, etc. simply stand on the shore and watch as Pakistan wrestles India. They are not getting their hands dirty in a wrestling match with India. Only Pakistan is mad enough to do that.

    For both the US and China – Pakistan has literally been like a condom – with the Pakistani army eagerly accepting arms in exchange for fighting their wars and implement their foreign policies. But neither country is about to bail out even 20 million drowning Pakistanis, leave alone the 150 million who are high and dry.

    From a geopolitical viewpoint there is something compelling for the US and China to want to feed the mangy Pakistani dog that is nipping at the heels of the lumbering Indian cow. The dog does not like the cow in any case and accepts scraps with gratitude, ignoring fleas as it barks on behalf of its aid giving sponsors.

    But honor and dignity have been placed higher than civil development on the “essential requirements” list of the Pakistani nation. The majority will now not admit this because it causes too much discomfort and anger to actually wake up at this stage. If the Pakistani nation wants to commit suicide in this manner who am I to stop it?

  193. ashu

    Raza Raja ji,

    This is a great post.

    However I look at it, I really dont see how the behaviour of going uninvited into someone else’s house, drinking their tea, and then insulting or humiliating them can be very smart🙂

    Also offering unsolicited insights or advice that may be hurtful to the host does seem to be a little rude. ( Forgive me if I have indulged in this before)

    Personally I really appreciate your effort and have learnt a great deal by reading all shades of opinions from the Pakistani participants and the comments from well informed Indians ( Gorki, Vajra, Majumdar, etc.)

    Regards,

    ashu

  194. Kaalket

    I dont understand at all. How many Pakistani thinks of themselves as being children of Arab , Turk, Persian etc? Need enlightement on this strange feeling and pride in inheriting alien genetic infusion.

  195. Kaalket

    I mean think of themselves not thinks as written above.

  196. Raza Raja

    @ashu

    Thanks a lot. it is good to see so many people acting rational and understanding what it is all about

  197. Amit Kumar

    Raza Rajaji..
    On a serious note.. i have this question in my mind which Kaalket has put. Can you give us some insight on this? Pakistan get inspired by Arab , Turk, Persian or they think they are. and whats the reality is?

    How many of then are real descended of Gori/Gajani/Mougals?

    I have never seen any Indian Christian saying that they have ruled India for around 200 years. Infact i have never heard any Christian from Goa saying that they have ruled Goa. They consider themselves very much part of India.

  198. PMA

    Kaalket (August 26, 2010 at 9:21 am):
    Amit Kumar (August 26, 2010 at 6:45 pm:

    “How many Pakistani thinks of themselves as being children of Arab, Turk, Persian etc? Need enlightenment on this strange feeling and pride in inheriting alien genetic infusion.”

    My wild guess is that about 30 to 50 percent. There are millions of us who claim to be direct descendants of Prophet Mohammad. There are millions with Turkic and Persian family backgrounds. And then there are millions of local stocks. They all take pride in their background whatever it is. But then of course over the centuries there has been a lot of intermarriages between the old inhabitants and the newcomers. We are a mix lot. But please don’t ridicule us for being that, and we will not ridicule you for what you are.

    The case of Indian Christians is different than that of Pakistani Muslims. You are speaking of a very large and heterogeneous population.
    Peace.

  199. Raju Brother

    PMA wrote:

    My wild guess is that about 30 to 50 percent. There are millions of us who claim to be direct descendants of Prophet Mohammad.

    My wild guess would be around 5% Turkish-Persian which is the elite. The rest 95% would be native stock (also mixed – various forms of native).

  200. sober

    If pakistan can foster the taliban,why can India not have a few right wingers?Have you taken the charge of all things radical?Every action has a reaction.We did not invade arabia and disturb the pagans there.We were happy in our own neighbourhood till people came and started throwing stones at us.

  201. Amit Kumar

    Raju Bhai,
    Nimbu cab be dangerous. If you put in boiling milk it will destroy it. I think Pak Army is following your analogy very seriously. and trying to boil the whole subcontinent.. then this Nimboo will brust.. prepare for that.

  202. karun1

    @RazaRaja

    sorry for the harsh words. did not mean it. although i still do not see a need for the article in the 1st place.

  203. Alakshyendra

    Everyone from New York Times to The Hindu (amongst others who have covered us extensively) takes our claim of being a liberal website very seriously… so it doesn’t matter if some Hindu fascist nuts think otherwise

    ylh, you are a true lakeer ka fakir. so because the nyt and hindu – who might’ve paid only a cursory glance at this website – think you are liberal, that makes you a liberal. and what some of us – who’ve spent longer here – say doesn’t matter. chal, if that makes you happy, so be it! who am i to wake you up from those delusions!!

  204. asterisk

    Pakistan has no value in India. If it had not been for the violence being sent into or instigated in India, Pakistan would be a zero entity in India.

    Indians visit this site in order to check out when the next terror attack will be coming. Even liberal websites reveal how much sympathy there is for terrorism against India and whether pakistani liberals will be stopping this terror.

    So when the indians notice that liberal muslims are either helpless or hypocrites then the indians write fervent things. Some hindus buy the islamic prop about islam being a religion of peace, justice etc.

  205. DG

    EDITED FOR HATE SPEECH

  206. DG

    This is a blog read by people with internet access in India and Pakistan. I think there is hardly anything that is offensive to these types of people. What is this hate speech crap ?
    If you have the guts let the few good people probably left in pakistan know that there are Indians who are now so angry with what is going on that they are now willing to come out and fight the war it that is what it takes. Already I can see that the fact that Islam is the only difference between India and Pakistan is already subconsciously destroying pakistan. But again has that topic been ever discussed.

    It has to to be discussed openly without using word warped garbage. And then you might even have a chance to begin to solve the problem

  207. DG

    By the way there were a lot of traditions and rules in Hinduism, Christianity which were controlled and downright cut down from public view. Can you imagine society if they were not. It would probably be in the same mess that Islamic society is in today.

    This is a complicated topic. But the only way to begin solving the problem. Address it all the time more and more. Otherwise pakteahouse is what it is. Chai paani for intellectual masturbation.

  208. Dear asterisk!
    That was revelation indeed!
    The terribly dumb reader that I am, I have been following the PTH for quite some time, and still didn’t know when most of the major terror attacks were taking place! Thanks buddy! Will be more careful henceforth. Why don’t you forward this URL to RAW too? Might come handy, you know…

    Darling DG,
    Thanks for your kindness. It was really sweet of you to acknowledge that there are some good people left in Pakistan still. We are delighted, and would expect you to return to PTH time and again and expose the dumbness of the regular street-smart Indian time and again.
    Each time you talk of the traditions and rules of the caste system, you remind me of Manu’s magnum opus, the Manu Smriti, certain passages of which are so vile that I wouldn’t want to wipe my *** with it. If you care about Hinduism, kindly for heaven’s sake do not try to defend it, at least not the version of you practice. The more people like you try to defend it, the more this religion of openness and tolerance stinks of political gain, fanaticism and the rotting flesh of innocent non-Hindus.
    And do you know why the intellectual masturbation is so important? Coz unless we keep the dialogue open, and unless we keep asking questions, Palestine will cease to exist, there will be genocide in Kashmir, and the intelligensia will forget that Tibet was a free country ever. We ask questions coz the likes of you see no problems with anything, as you have been bred as conformists, and will remain so as long as you live! So please stick to what you are good at: earning money and producing more little babies to spread the message of the fanatical brand of Hinduism! (RSS wouldn’t be a bad option, you see!)
    Cheers!!!

  209. Raju Brother

    southasianadda

    there will be genocide in Kashmir

    You mean like that what happened of Kashmiri Pundits by Pakistan-supported Islamists in the Kashmir Valley!

    Wonder how much you contributed to stopping it?

  210. Dude, very impractical to hold me responsible for something that happened long before I was born!

  211. DG

    @southasianadda

    Your name itself gives it away😀

    I think most religions are intrinsically stupid and that is why a society as a whole has to acknowledge it at some level. Indians acknowledged that much of the past theories in Hinduism were purely due to the era and time and the knowledge humans had at that time. And thats what I said. Where am I sucking up to Hinduism or Christianity ? But what about Islam ? Do you really think your 7th century theories (just like 7th century Hinduism/Christianity) are going to take you anywhere. The subconscious stuff that is bothering you guys is that its pretty evident where it has taken Pakistan compared to India. My point was the other religions have moved on and are being more (not fully) practical and scientific. But you guys have chosen to stick by the words of a 7th century youknowwho. Do you have the courage to imagine what that person saying the same things today would be called ? How much evidence do you need ?

    And if you think chai paani of the form found here which does not have the gall to ask and SOLVE the tough questions is going to free Kashmir, Palestine and Tibet I can only say not all southasians are that stupid😀 Only pakistanis😉 And these days no one is even asking for any proof. Everyone knows.

    And by the way Kashmir will be free when the stupid Islamist idiots are thrown back to the land of the pure and always begging. Kashmir was always a Hindu country of very smart people for thousands of years and its time we got it back to its original glory. Now it has become a intellectually starved place full of 7th century loving yahoos. See that is my perspective and historically a more accurate one. Suck on that while you have your tea and go on to producing more hungry islamic babies and begging for food, money, honour and suicide vests from the rest of the world.

  212. DG

    By the way South Asian is a word most used by those who are ashamed to be called Pakistani. There is no other way to see it😉

  213. DG

    And last but not least… This is the million dollar question. You folks at pakteahouse talk about how India-pak should forget the past blah blah and should be at peace with each other.

    Now read this end to end
    http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

    Now if you have finished reading let me know with what conviction would any country be at peace with an Islamic country. Forget about India and Pakistan. Your cricketers are lying and cheating technically to non muslims. Your politicians, army, feudal landlords, average street idiots are all allowed to lie and cheat to non muslims.
    And this is legal in Islam.

    With what face do you run pakteahouse as a liberal site ? A true muslim cannot be liberal. Not even half liberal. Face the truth.

    And the last thought of the day is from Albert Einstein.
    You cannot solve problems at the same level of thinking that created it.

    Long live Indus. Protector of Hindus😉
    Good luck

  214. AZW

    DG:

    And last but not least… This is the million dollar question. You folks at pakteahouse talk about how India-pak should forget the past blah blah and should be at peace with each other.

    Now read this end to end
    http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

    Now if you have finished reading let me know with what conviction would any country be at peace with an Islamic country. Forget about India and Pakistan. Your cricketers are lying and cheating technically to non muslims. Your politicians, army, feudal landlords, average street idiots are all allowed to lie and cheat to non muslims.

    And this is legal in Islam.

    No this is not a million dollar question. Question is, do you know what forum are you participating in, do you know what it stands for, do you know that this forum talks about against any sort of religious state anywhere in the world, especially Pakistan.

    And do you know that this forum is hated by the right wing Islamist faction in Pakistan for speaking out, writing and expounding the fallacy of a religious state, whether it is Islamic or a Hindu one.

    And once you come to realize that you are at the wrong forum, would you pack the pack of whoever from Pune and Maharashtra with nothing but hatred of Islam in their hearts, and move on to fire your blanks at the next one that may remotely fit the definition of those that you hate.

    In case you are lost, search wordpress for words like kashifiat or Jamaat-e-Islami and take your war up with them. They are more than your match when it comes to spewing out all passion and zero content.

    And if you have a problem with people speaking out against imposing political Islam on Pakistan, then make sure you know yourself where you stand first.

  215. DG

    @AZW

    I could add a permanent apology to the Pakistanis who think it should not be a Islamic state etc etc and the whole shebang… But really guys somehow my heart cannot apologise that easily when I imagine what goes on at the ISI/Army/Let headquarters in Pakistan. I do not have the sucker Hindu gene maybe… I write here in angst at what is happening and more importantly because what I think is going to happen. And that is another topic… Ofcourse sometimes Im just responding to your average pakistani oooops southasian😉 And come on these are just comments. A good way to judge what is cooking in Indian minds of all types. It is and will remain an effect and not a cause. The average Indian still thinks Pakistanis are pretty similar and Islam is a religion of peace. So that way you guys are lucky.

    And Im here only because I know there seem to enough brains in Pakistan left who know what the problem is. For me solving problems are mainly about going at the roots. And that by habit is the only perspective that I would keep hinting at.

  216. Dear DG,

    You have proved a second time what Pakistanis love to believe about street smart Indians: nothing makes them happy till every wish of theirs is fulfilled and every comment cheered by a two thirds majority!😉

    No one here is saying that we ought to follow the tenets of Islam as it was practised in the 7th cent. Its obvious that the world has moved on, and so do we need to move beyond values and practices that are clearly regressive and myopic. Interestingly, the world at large, and also the Indian government, love to pander to the ultra orthodox Muslim, and quietly ignore the interests of the more liberal and secular sections. Look at your self for example, you are mighty pissed that some Pakistanis have actually created an open forum where they can discuss issues pertaining to their country, religions, and whatever they chose to, in a sane, rational and (to a huge extent) unbiased manner, since you love to think of all Pakistanis as gun-toting miscreants hailing from South Waziristan, and any deviation from this image bothers you no end, and you come and disrupt all rational discussion with your semi-nonsense! I don’t think a similar forum exists in the secular and progressive Indian blogosphere, btw.

    And regarding the discussions, no one has claimed that sitting and discussing problems solves them, But they definitely help to create a better understanding of any problem. Thank Heavens, not all Indians think like you, unlike the Israelis, and thankfully unlike Yitzhak Rabin, many Indian leaders don’t dream of Kashmir disappearing all together! Denying that the Kashmir situation is a hugely problematic one, isn’t the first step towards solving it, I am sure.

    “By the way South Asian is a word most used by those who are ashamed to be called Pakistani. There is no other way to see it ;-)”

    I am giggling still! Why don’t you save yourself the embarrassment and stop jumping to such drastically funny conclusions? Byomkesh Bakshi wouldn’t have been very proud of you, dear! (Perhaps now you have enough evidence to conclude that I am from Bangladesh since I spoke about BB!🙂 Keep it up, buddy, you are lots of fun!)

    And finally why are you sitting and quoting the Al Taqiyya to Pakistanis, when none of them here seem to be remotely interested in it? You are one real mess, man! Time you stopped jumping to religion and nation-based conclusions about people and accept that both dimwits and intelligent people exist on either sides of the border, and any discussion with the latter category calls for more intelligence and understanding than you have cared to display here.

    Best!

  217. no-communal

    @southasianadda
    “I don’t think a similar forum exists in the secular and progressive Indian blogosphere, btw.”

    All one can say is, ‘necessity is the mother of invention’.

    Thanks for a balanced post though.

  218. Sol

    @southasianadda

    I am glad that you are raising the issue of Kashmiris so forcefully. Maybe now you can tell us something about the Urdu speaking Bangladeshis who have been refugees in their own country for so many years.

    And here’s something you might enjoy :

    With love, from Pakistan :

    www. youtube. com /watch?v=O85nKcLqqIg

    Remove spaces.

  219. DG

    @southasianadda

    Firstly I dont think of pakistanis as gun totting miscreants from waziristan etc etc I think of them as forced converts with the same genes as Indians (north atleast) self destructing due to their religion (and only their religion in the overall analysis… The rest is a consequence… like poor leaders et al) and currently facing jealousy, poverty, moral depravity, inferiority complexes galore and psychosocial confusions which would be the delight of any sociologist, psychologist and all other type of ists. I also think of them as liars, cheats and at the very core not worthy of being one country. I know all generalizations assume that 10-50% of the country may not be like the above. So a handful of people doing intellectual masturbation of the right kind is not surprising to me nor does it change my world view or pakiview.

    Any discussion of Pakistan without a heavy weightage on the intrinsic problems of Islam is extremely misleading especially to non muslims who currently still believe in the usual media/political garbage that terror/pakistani problem has little to do with religion etc. This is the current view of the world atleast in the open. And all that Im saying is that this is garbage. Open this box fully and that is when you can smell the dead rat, cow, pig and other corpses. All discussions about the dead ant otherwise are meaningless. And that pakistanis would prefer to feign that they dont know about Taqiya in Islam is not my problem. Infact it makes it doubly important that every non muslim know about it. period.

    And remember Im giving you a random non muslim Indian’s perspective. On the comments section. If you dont agree with me I dont think anything’s going to change. The problem is that even if you agree with me nothing is going to change. Because babies we all know this chai paani and nothing else.

    And check what I wrote about ‘south asian’ I said ‘mostly’ used by pakistanis😉 That darling southasian is another debate😀 This may not be a vyomkesh bakshi level analysis. But I think bollywood level analysis is enough for understanding pakithinking.

  220. @no-communal: Point taken, Sir! N’cheez is trying to do something similar, but would need the active support of people like you, Vajra, Girish, Hayyer, Gorki and capable people who might be interested. Let’s work it out!

    @Sol: Thanks, but a minor correction: was merely pulling DGs leg when I mentioned Bangladesh. I live in another Bangla desh, on the other side of the border, though my ancestral roots may be traced back to Dhaka.

    Have a very faint idea about the plight of Urdu speaking Bangladeshis, but would surely like to learn more about the issue, before commenting on it.

    And thanks for the link, it’s fun!🙂

  221. Sol

    “Have a very faint idea about the plight of Urdu speaking Bangladeshis, but would surely like to learn more about the issue, before commenting on it.”

    Maybe you should have taken your own advice before making that ludicrous comment about “genocide” in Kashmir.

    And I find it interesting that you are on a high horse giving us lectures about every issue from Kashmir to Palestine whilst blissfully unaware of the injustices next door..

  222. @SoI: Ha ha ha! The difference between your first and your second response really fascinates me! Are you trying out the Good Cop-Bad Cop treatment for no reasons incomprehensible, or is this your irritation at the discovery that I am ‘Indian, after all’!?
    I am free enough to protest atrocities committed by Indian security in Kashmir (coz I know chances are higher that I will be heard), which however does not apply to issues in Bangladesh, the same way it doesn’t make lots of sense (not very decent either!) if I go around crying about human rights violations in Pakistan. And isn’t charity, after all, supposed to begin at home!?

  223. @DG: Don’t think anything can be achieved with that terribly prejudiced, negative and pessimistic worldview of yours.. No wonder everything seems intellectual masturbation and “chai paani and nothing else” to you.
    And perhaps we should carry on with this conversation elsewhere, and give PTH a break!🙂
    You are most welcome to my blog.
    Regards.

  224. Sol

    “I am free enough to protest atrocities committed by Indian security in Kashmir ”

    I have no problem with you protesting about anything. After all we live in a secular liberal democracy, unlike most of the unfortunate folks in our neighborhood. But I do have a problem with you parroting liberal fascist propaganda: earlier it was “genocide” now it is “atrocities”…

    */(coz I know chances are higher that I will be heard)/ *
    Ahhh … so you commented that just because of decided to join the bandwagon. Kashmir is the latest fad so you decided to make exaggerated comments about it whilst issues like discrimination in Bangladesh and Darfur genocide are passe ..

    */And isn’t charity, after all, supposed to begin at home!?/*
    Oops .. maybe you should read up on Sachar committee report and conditions of Muslims in West Bengal . Their HDI are lot worse compared to those living in Kashmir Valley. I request you to go visit the slums in Kolkata and improve their lives. Then come and lecture us about “genocide” in Kashmir.

  225. DG

    @southasianaddict

    The only problem with atrocities committed by Indian security in Kashmir is that they are just not enough atleast compared to american, western or islamic standards. Ask the dead red indians, aboriginals, balochis, arabs, afghanis and currently PoKwasis about what atrocities really mean. When 1000s of young people, continuously for months, pelt stones at everyone and sundry including properties of the Indian tax payer I wont more than tear gas, rubber bullets and stones thrown back at them. I want a lot more than 50 people dead. Kashmir is as much an Indian property as Maharashtra or Tamil Nadu. Infact the Indus valley is also Indian property but there are too many dirty islamic idiots who inhabit it currently so we cant take it back anymore. And if someone does not agree with our view they can get the f*** out of Kashmir. It was always a Hindu land for thousands of years. You have a land of the pure anyways doing wonderful on your left to run to.

    I’m sorry there is no other way to see it. Because if you want to try seeing it any other way i will want autonomy and freedom for Maharashtra tomorrow. It would be good to know my tax is not feeding some losers from Bengal and Bihar but building good roads for me and my surroundings only. Ofcourse that this is the basic goal of the great ISI is common knowledge for every 3 year old in Pakistan. Anyways luckily its only Kerala that is next I believe since they have already have over 25% Islamic population. Oh Sorry. Religion not the reason naa Mommy my Congress approved history book says so. Religion only about peace peace and prayer naa.

    And take your stupid blog and shove it because anyone who does not get the fact that the problem with Pakistan is correlated with problem in Islam is just not worth my time. There are different chains of thought and ideas possible but unless we agree on this simple ‘fact’ there is no further debate possible.

  226. @Sol

    I’ve heard this “liberal fascist” term before. I suggest you please don’t use it. It only shows that you don’t understand either liberalism or fascism or both and it’s not good for you!

    @DG

    I think you need to get a perspective here. I am sure you are sane enough to accept that not all Pakistanis are extremists. If you are really worried about the growing Islamic extremism in the world, as I am, you wouldn’t be spewing hatred on this forum. These guys here at PTH are trying to give voice to the liberal and moderate voices in Pakistan and the least you could do is encourage them, not confront them.

    Unless, of course, if you are a right-wing extremist yourself and will not stop at anything less than Muslim blood on your sword! In that case, there are many right-wing Hindu and Muslim forums on the web for you to spew your hatred.

  227. Raza Raja

    @ ashish deodhar

    Thanks for understanding and supporting the crux of the issue.

    Regards

  228. DG

    @Ashish

    I dont have specific reasons for writing as I have done. But it is based on my reading of what the pakistanis and indians who are reading this might be thinking more than those that are just writing the articles. More importantly its what I think Indians and Pakistanis need to hear. For example everyone is talking about some deaths due to Indian security, but has anyone compared this to worldwide events, historically ? Has anyone talked about how should a security apparatus deal with 1000s of stone throwing youth without hurting or killing a few ? Is that really possible ? Are we really that dumb to just let the stupid islamists, separatists and peace peace gandhi loving dumbass Indians start talking about atrocities so easily ??

    And where am I discouraging pakteahouse? This is something I dont get. Im giving my open and harsh as it maybe opinion. Infact it gives them data on what kind of thinking Indians are capable of, other than the peace peace Indians who are all over the bloody planet. I may not be a full blown right wing extremist but I would prefer that if there be blood it should be blood in Pakistan I dont care whether it is muslim or non muslim. I dont believe this conflict can be resolved without blood. At the very least this cannot be resolved without another partition of Pakistan or some sort of marshal plan aka done on Germany. There is a lot of trouble ahead. At the very least we need to know why exactly are some of us going to die.

    And to close, the problem is with Islam. I hate to say bad things about muslims. Islam is an idea, an ideology. Muslims are human beings. Its the idea, ideology a philosophy that is destroying Pakistan. Human beings on their own are just not that capable of such self destruction.

  229. Dear PTH,
    This is my last post on this thread unless something exciting and worth commenting comes up!

    Dear SoI,
    Please feel free to stick to your conservative fascism, if you think that’s better than my ‘liberal fascism’.🙂
    I wouldn’t believe that the Indian security forces are doing social service in Kashmir even if I were high on LSD.
    You love to talk out of context! Nothing else can explain reasons behind dragging Dafur, slum dwellers in Kolkata, etc. on this thread.
    You suffer from a hugely inflated sense of yourself, which helps you to jump to the conclusion that everyone else are mere armchair theorists, having done nothing else.
    But you are welcome to humour yourself as you please.

    @DG: I am tired of barking at you! Wish we could wag our tails and come to some understanding, but you, as ever, want the entire bone! I tried to go through your delirious comment a number of times, but sorry, it refuses to make any sense still.
    I thought you were sensible enough to understand that the reason why I wanted to continue this discussion on my blog was not because I want to divert traffic (no one pays me for that!), but because we, Indians, have this amazing knack of hijacking anything Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Nepali, and claiming it as our own. And that’s what we are doing to this blog right now!
    If you find my stupid blog too inferior for you to part with your pearls of verbal wisdom in, I think I will have lesser trash to handle.
    Thank You!

  230. Raza Raja

    @DG

    Well what can i say…Your posts are the perfect example as to why I wrote this article in the first place.

    Thanks a lot!!!!

  231. DG

    @Raza

    You have a purpose and so do I. My little purpose in my little world this side of that british drawn line is to make sure enough people know the facts and realities so that atleast when in the next 25-50 years Kerala with 51% Islamic population starts demanding azaadi in mallu they remember that Hey DG told us so! Yeah I dont really expect gandhi loving low IQ Hindu suckers in India to ever get that the key and real problem is Islam so soon…

    @southasiandada

    This article was specifically about Indian Right Wingers and pakistani ‘liberals’. I dont think the Bangladeshi and Nepalis will be bothered with us taking the spotlight in the comments section😀 Anyways that comment tells me everything I would want to know about you. Good luck.

  232. @Southasianadda

    Thank you for adding a fresh new voice.

    You might like to tell that dimwit SoI that Urdu-speakers in Bangladesh who have accepted Bangladeshi citizenship and its norms, including the Bangla language, are quite happily assimilated.

    Those who have stated clearly that they will have nothing to do with the new state, and will only accept Pakistani citizenship, are quite clear about their intentions and objectives. It is difficult to see what oppression they are suffering, as a refugee segment awaiting repatriation to their chosen land. It has nothing to do with Bangladesh.

    You might also like to inform aforementioned dimwit that the reason that Muslims sought more effective protection than even reserved electorates before 47 was because of their psychological insecurity, their feeling of not belonging. In today’s milieu, the economic factors don’t tell the whole story. Muslims in Bengal have the security of knowing that their identity is secure and their religious identity is not under threat, and in fact, I believe that their progressive elements would even argue that some curbing of cultural exuberance would be in order.

    The Sachar Committee says clearly what economic benefits have come to Muslims, what handicaps they still suffer from and what has to be done to raise them at least to their appropriate demographic position. It does not pretend to capture or to reflect Bengali Muslim confidence in being treated as fully-qualified citizens with absolute equality in civic matters.

    Keep bashing on. It feels good to see you handle the pack with such ease. It looks like you, Ashish Deodhar, Raza Raja, Tilsim, AZW and others can handle this lot with no help from others. And hold the other lunatic to his own words:

    anyone who does not get the fact that the problem with Pakistan is correlated with problem in Islam is just not worth my time. There are different chains of thought and ideas possible but unless we agree on this simple ‘fact’ there is no further debate possible.

    Yeah, right. We don’t agree on this simple fact. We’re not worth his time. Can he please stand by this, rather than come whining back looking for a crumb of recognition? Anything to get his name in print on a good blog-site, apparently.

  233. @DG

    “And where am I discouraging pakteahouse? This is something I dont get. Im giving my open and harsh as it maybe opinion.”

    Do read your own comments if possible and you will get the answer to your question.

    “Giving your opinions plainly” and confronting people are two different things.

    As for how a security apparatus should deal with stone-pelting teenagers, you may want to understand how law enforcement agencies around the world deal with such behaviors. Shooting protestors dead is never a solution. NEVER!

    Now, I don’t want to engage in a war of words with you. I am not a moderator here at PTH so I don’t know whether it’s my place to say this but I will say it anyway:

    I am here to hear moderate Pakistani voices and to understand their position on various issues. I am here also to build a good rapport with the liberals in Pakistan and hopefully to help understand each other better.

    So if you don’t have anything positive/constructive to say, I would much appreciate it if you don’t say anything at all. As I said, there are far more forums on the net where you’ll find Pakistan-hating Indians and India-hating Pakistanis. And if you do want to “share your opinions” with this forum, let them be better than ” I don’t believe this conflict can be resolved without blood.”

    Because trust me, it can be and hopefully, it will be!

  234. Raju Brother

    Ashish Deodhar wrote:

    I’ve heard this “liberal fascist” term before. I suggest you please don’t use it. It only shows that you don’t understand either liberalism or fascism or both and it’s not good for you!

    But exists is a ‘liberal fascist’. There are some attributes to this species.

    a) They like to paint anybody who doesn’t agree with them as ‘right-wing’ and ‘extremist’. To them that seems to be a very convenient methodology to avoid unpleasant aspects of reality and arguments based on them.

    b) They like to criticize the State over non-State extremist forces, especially if the extremist forces are those of a religious minority. They do not want to know any facts about instigations and provocations by these extremist forces. They do not want to know about the restraint some forces exercise in fulfilling their duty to ensure law and order. They take it for granted when somebody claims being victim of some atrocity of security forces without doing proper research of truth and context.

    c) They are not averse to aligning themselves with extremist forces of some religious minority and supporting their point of view.

    d) They often do not support considerations of development.

    e) They are basically puppets of Western interests, who want to discredit non-Western viewpoints as non-humanistic and inferior.

    This has been a constant pattern of behavior amongst Indian Liberals, that they would have to prove their balanced behavior before they get any credence and respect.

    As for Pakistani Liberals, they are mostly Muslim Chauvinists who still haven’t really embraced the concepts of mutual respect, equality and historical justice with respect to Hindus, until some Liberal shows otherwise.

    So the moral grandstanding of Liberals of the Subcontinent is a currency accepted only in their small circle and their European patrons.

  235. Raju Brother

    Correction

    But exists is a ‘liberal fascist’. should read

    But there exists a ‘liberal fascist’

  236. @Raju brother

    And do these “liberal fascists” exist on this planet? Or in your own deluded mind?😀

  237. Raju Brother

    Vajra wrote:

    Keep bashing on. It feels good to see you handle the pack with such ease. It looks like you, Ashish Deodhar, Raza Raja, Tilsim, AZW and others can handle this lot with no help from others.
    🙂🙂

    If somebody doesn’t know how arrogance looks like, well here is one example. Clearly Mr. Vajra belongs to the A Team, while the others are still B and C Teams of Liberal Warriors. Obviously some are more equal than others.🙂

  238. Whether someone belongs to the A team or the B or the C, it is better than being a foul creature from a septic tank. Even the Z team is superior.

  239. Raju Brother

    Ashish Deodhar wrote:

    And do these “liberal fascists” exist on this planet? Or in your own deluded mind?

    The blind have my sympathy, as they cannot see themselves in the mirror!

  240. Oh sorry Raju brother, I didn’t know I was part of the “liberal fascists”! Boy at this rate, I could well be a part of the Italian mafia!😀

  241. Raju Brother:

    “Clearly Mr. Vajra belongs to the A Team, while the others are still B and C Teams of Liberal Warriors. Obviously some are more equal than others.”

    Divide and Rule, eh, Raju Brother!?
    It might work on your power hungry Bhajpah cadres though.. All the luck!😀

  242. Raju Brother

    Vajra wrote:

    Whether someone belongs to the A team or the B or the C, it is better than being a foul creature from a septic tank. Even the Z team is superior.

    So you are better than amoeba and foul creatures of a septic tank! Well, that is definitely confidence. Another couple of 100 million years and you can compare yourself with primates.

  243. Raju Brother

    Divide and Rule, eh, Raju Brother!?

    You can read again, what he said. May be you have a different interpretation. I’ll be happy to know!

  244. @Raju Brother: sympathetic🙂

  245. Raju Brother

    southasianadda wrote:

    sympathetic 🙂

    Yes like ‘sympathetic’ to losers!

  246. DG

    @Ashish

    Pitiful is what your post is. For me it almost represents the prototypical intelligent Hindu sucker. Oh well maybe you are not that bad. Deluded and neutered by his upbringing. Completely unaware about what is the thought process in Pakistan. What is the reality about Islam. What is written in the holiest of their books. Blissfully unaware but Hey mommy I want to connect with their liberals. Cause thats so intelligent naa. Oh Please behave well as an Indian on a paki forum please because I want to connect well with the liberals. The murder of your family is being currently planned in Pakistan and why don’t you be nice to those planners too to connect well with them.

    The Americans, British, Australians and all the really succesful countries got where they are by never shooting or killing anyone😀 And was there any proof that protesters were shot at by anything other than rubber bullets. When 1000s of protesters keep doing what they did for a long time there will be collateral damage. Atrocities ? Genocide ? I mean how stupid can we get ?

    And If pakistani liberals are going to stop being ‘liberal’ because of the rants in the comment section by Indians then I prefer connecting with the openly islamic yahoos who are actually in charge in puristan.

    @Vajra

    Well I also think you cannot solve Integral root tan(x) dx without knowing what tan means. And at the very least if I was working with a friend to solve this I would prefer he atleast knew what tan meant😀 tan also means something else you know😉

    And Darlings. Blood is guaranteed. I mean hasnt enough being spilt some would say. Yeah my bet is that this is just the beginning. And hence I consider ranting like this as a non issue. Anyways opinions are dime a dozen and even cheaper in the comments section.

    Good Luck and bye bye.
    Long live Indus! Protector of Hindus😉

  247. @DG

    “Deluded and neutered by his upbringing. Completely unaware about what is the thought process in Pakistan.”

    And what qualifies you to know any better about this “thought process in Pakistan” than I do? Deluded and neutered upbringing? No?

    Listen buddy, we’ve been peppered with anti-Pakistan news, articles, TV shows… even movies to an extent that we’ve developed this nasty opinion about the Pakistanis. Besides, the current happenings in Pakistan – from the Taliban to the Cricketing scandal – doesn’t do any good for our perceptions.

    But as I said earlier, it’s insane to accept that every single individual in Pakistan is a gun-totting extremist! And you surely can’t blame the liberals in Pakistan for all the crimes committed in the name of Islam just as you can’t blame me for the religious violence against muslims in Mumbai and Gujarat.

    Look, we have fought 3 wars with Pakistan in the last 63 years and the hostility shows no signs of ebbing yet. Now instead of confronting them, you could try to befriend people on this site, try and understand their position, get to know each other and see if it works. If, despite all our efforts, this dialogue fails after giving it a serious shot, you could go back to doing what you have been doing for over half a century!

    Does that not seem plausible to you?

  248. @Ashish Deodhar
    @Southasianadda

    Looks like you guys are doing something right. You’ve already got DG foaming at the mouth and talking nonsense – earlier, it was nonsense in cryptical phrases and brief sentences, now it is the full Monty. Now we have the sub-cretin babbling Hindi phrases to inject a note of earthy realism. That’s when you know he’s run out of rational thinking.

    And the smelly old goat behind has got down to the kind of delightful badinage remarkable on YouTube. Whenever someone challenges his distortions of facts, he avoids any discussion and falls back on the essential wrongness of Islam. There is no other substance to either of these cartoons from Marmeek. Just look at his posts and you’ll see the point.

    As you can see, it doesn’t take much to reduce them to their fundamentals.

  249. Raza Raja

    @DG

    “Pitiful is what your post is. For me it almost represents the prototypical intelligent Hindu sucker. Oh well maybe you are not that bad. Deluded and neutered by his upbringing. Completely unaware about what is the thought process in Pakistan. What is the reality about Islam. What is written in the holiest of their books. Blissfully unaware but Hey mommy I want to connect with their liberals. Cause thats so intelligent naa. Oh Please behave well as an Indian on a paki forum please because I want to connect well with the liberals. The murder of your family is being currently planned in Pakistan and why don’t you be nice to those planners too to connect well with them”

    I can not beleive any sane person could have written this.

    Mr. DG I wrote this article and can you please tell me where do i fit in this grand plan to kill your children.

    pathetic..

    But nevertheless posts like yours are essential to bring out the vivid contrast with good and sane people like Vajra, Ashish Deodhar, Southasianadda, Indian Pundit etc

    These guys lend me with hope and optimism and reassure me that sanity prevails in this world.

    It is easy to knit conspiracy theories and whip hate on race and nationality in the atmposphere which is already condusive towards negative thinking but difficult to talk sense…

    I know what is broadly wrong with my society and have not given an aplogetic defense. Rather I have admitted the flaws..

    I tried to convey this message that it becomes difficult for us to talk sense to our extremist nationalist right wingers if people like DG are spewing venom and hatred on the same forum where we are trying to cultivate goodwill towards India.

    But as I said earlier also for me the good thing is people like Vajra, Ashish Deodhar, Southasianadda, indian pundit, Gorky etc. these are people who are sane, intelligent, humble and above all good humans. They understand that living ina complex world hate is no longer a solution and both sides have to rethink a lot

    I hope that these people have the better of people like you.

  250. @Raza Habib Raja

    Two points:

    First, these poisonous creatures will die of their own poison, like scorpions stinging themselves. You and I and other straightforward people need to exert ourselves only minimally.

    Second, their stock in trade is not logic, it is prejudice and bias. So everything is reduced to a definitive bedrock hate speech. They are incapable of anything else. Their object of hate is hateful in itself, by its own definition, by its prescriptions. Disprove this, and they fall back on the next level: their object of hate is hateful due to its interpretation, and due to its interpreters. Disprove this, and they fall back on the next level: their object of hate is hateful because some hateful people, some lunatics have cited its supposed tenets in support. Disprove this, and they fall back on tried and tested science: their object of hate is hateful because it has polluted Mother Sindhu.

    They have nothing else to say. And that is the only reason why they should be banned, because of their total mental bankruptcy, and inability to participate in any kind of rational discussion. If they can’t, then why entertain them?

  251. Raju Brother

    Ashish Deodhar wrote:

    And do these “liberal fascists” exist on this planet? Or in your own deluded mind?

    Raju Brother wrote: The blind have my sympathy, as they cannot see themselves in the mirror!

    Oh sorry Raju brother, I didn’t know I was part of the “liberal fascists”!

    Didn’t say you were “liberal fascist”!
    I meant – just deluded, that “liberal fascists” don’t exist!

    What you presumed, was perhaps just a consequence of “chor ki dardi men tinka”!

    Boy at this rate, I could well be a part of the Italian mafia!

    You think, you are qualified?!

  252. @Raju brother

    Seriously? Do you want me to respond to that?

  253. AZW

    Raju Brother:

    a) They like to paint anybody who doesn’t agree with them as ‘right-wing’ and ‘extremist’. To them that seems to be a very convenient methodology to avoid unpleasant aspects of reality and arguments based on them.
    b) They like to criticize the State over non-State extremist forces, especially if the extremist forces are those of a religious minority. They do not want to know any facts about instigations and provocations by these extremist forces. They do not want to know about the restraint some forces exercise in fulfilling their duty to ensure law and order. They take it for granted when somebody claims being victim of some atrocity of security forces without doing proper research of truth and context.
    c) They are not averse to aligning themselves with extremist forces of some religious minority and supporting their point of view.
    d) They often do not support considerations of development.
    e) They are basically puppets of Western interests, who want to discredit non-Western viewpoints as non-humanistic and inferior

    You have scored a remarkable five out of five in getting them wrong. And I would not give you any pleasure to point out one by one why you are utterly wrong on more counts. You need to spend a week reading this forum, along with all the robust debates that ensue afterwards. No one will expedite this process for you, for once you need to read before you believe. It is hard work, but off the shelf ideas usually don’t last very long anyways.

    You are leaving no stone unturned in reinforcing the point that except from an invading culture ideology, blind hatred towards your counterparts in the Islamic community, and a healthy absence of the ability to perceive grays through the black and whites of various human communities, you have nothing more to offer.

    Along with DG, you do make a formidable duo of solidified nothingness. Enough of these Arabian invasion rants. You want to see blood spilled on the streets, and the great clash of civilizations, then muse about them on your brethrens’ websites who revel in these cataclysmic prognoses. If I read any more of the same alien culture, Islamic fascism rant that is irrelevant to any topic at hand, your comments will be summarily deleted without any warning. DG has kindly graced us with his intentions to leave this forum. You are most welcome to join him in his subsequent internet travels as well.

  254. Tilsim

    Well said AZW

  255. Amit Kumar

    @Raza Raja,
    I have one simple question, why your PTH was beating the drum of plight of India muslims just after Mumbai was attacked by Pakistanis and Pak Army’s ‘strategic assets’.

    Is this the liberal face of Pakistan? Why cannot you write similar articles/stories when TTP is bombing your cities? Why don’t your Army and intellectuals calls them freedom fighter?

  256. @AZW

    DG has kindly graced us with his intentions to leave this forum. You are most welcome to join him in his subsequent internet travels as well.

    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeew. Thought you’d never get here and we’d all get scalped by those pesky Redskins.

  257. Raza Raja

    @ Amit Kumar

    Kindly see PTH past articles. We have written enorimous amount against militants and TTP. Kindly refrain from making allegations which are factually incorrect. You can check Raza rumi’s articles, my articles. AZW’s articles, YLH’s articles…all these are severely against TTP and Pakistani middleclass’s state of denial.

  258. Raju Brother

    Raza Raja wrote:

    all these are severely against TTP and Pakistani middleclass’s state of denial

    Should one assume, that Pakistani State and Pakistani people are willing to continue violating the territoriality of the Pushtun Tribals, and would continue disrespect their tribal customs, all at the behest of Americans.

    Are suicide bombings in Pakistan not a desperate attempt of the people from these tribal areas to show the Pakistanis, how they themselves are being tormented by the atrocities of the Pakistani Army in their territories, and by the drone attacks from the skies, also with the connivance and support of the Pakistani Army. The desperation of the people is so great, that they are willing to become martyrs, simply to bring the message to the Pakistani people, who are otherwise not willing to pay attention to their woes.

    Wouldn’t the suicide bombings cease, once the Pakistani Army has ceased their war against the Pushtun people of the area?

    Who is here the victim? When the Pakistani State has not cared for these tribes since the last 63 years, and have continued to treat them with the same distanced and step-brotherly approach like the British before them, and have not brought any development or education to the area, how can the Pakistani State all of a sudden claim sovereignty over the territory of the Pushtun Tribes and invade the area?

    I would like to call upon all the good Pakistani people to stop this war against the Pushtun Tribes and to stop this drone-carnage. They should impress upon the Americans that Mullah Omars and Osama bin Ladens are not in North Waziristan, South Waziristan and Bajaur, but rather in Quetta and Karachi under the protection of ISI. Why should the Pushtun Tribes bear the brunt of ISI’s devious games?

    Is the blood of a Pushtun tribal not red? Does it not hurt him when the drones attack or the Pakistani Army shower their bullets? Why don’t the Pakistani Liberals raise their voice in support of the Pushtun Tribals?

    Tehreek-e-Taliban (TTP) is the true voice of the Pushtun Tribes. It does not bode well, when the Pakistani Liberals support the emasculation of their voice!

  259. Amit Kumar

    @Raza Raja,
    @Raza Raja,
    I am aksing why your PTH was beating the drum of plight of India muslims just after Mumbai was attacked by Pakistanis and Pak Army’s ‘strategic assets’?

    And why you coddemn TTP and NOT calling them “freedom fighters”, following the same standard as you did after attack on Mumbai.

  260. Amit Kumar

    @Raju Brother
    Well said and good reply. I got disgusted to read the PTH coverage after Mumbai attack. All these peace process is like beating our head on the stones. Pak Army and ruling elite will not change. Basically they want to profit from all the conflicts and even from the tragedy of their own people. They do not have any love or sympathy for anyone.

    They give opium of religion to their people and teach them to hate we indians and others. We are better off being their enemy that way we are at lesser risk to avoid any Kargil or Mumbai type attack.

    Pak Army and ruling elite will not change even after current tragedy. They have no love even for their own people.

  261. no-communal

    @Raju Brother
    Sorry, is your last post an attempt to create confusion among Pakistani liberals, or are you serious? You do know about the Afghan/Pakistani Taliban and their fight against Kabul, don’t you?

  262. “Tehreek-e-Taliban (TTP) is the true voice of the Pushtun Tribes.”

    This tops it for me. Next thing we know, Raju bhaiiya is in the tribal belts with AK-47s and suicide vests fighting for the cause of “Akhand bharat”!

    Fools galore😀

  263. Amit Kumar

    @no-communal
    Mumbai was attacked by Pakistanis that killed more than 40 Muslims of India as well. Why PTH was beating the drum of plight of India muslims?

    Why so called Pakistani liberals including PTH was trying to link this attack with the problems of Indian Muslims?

  264. AZW

    I will ask all participants to refrain from replying to these characters (RB, AK and DM). We don’t need anything more than them to open their mouths to realize that we are dealing with certified trolls right now who find it hard not to repeat same thing over and over again.

    I am leaving their last comments on the board to give everyone a good picture of these folks abilities and capacities. Any further comments from these gentlemen and their IP addresses are to be deleted from now on.

    (Moderator, PTH)

  265. no-communal

    @Amit,
    I haven’t gone and looked at PTH website so far in the past and I would suggest you don’t do that either. Because, that does not serve any purpose, other than reopening some old wounds, for which none of the PTH guys were responsible. They have squarely condemned all such acts froms their soil.

    Now, coming to PTH’s coverage after Mumbai, if what you say is true (and I am assuming it is), the simple explanation is that it was not clear to them who the perpetrators were. You and I, we could immediately see through it. In fact, right when the whole incident was happening, we knew in our hearts that these guys were Pakistanis. But please keep in mind that our clues were subjective(punjabi pronunciations, calling Hyderabad Hyderabad-Deccan, the cruelty and fierceness, the absolute lack of empathy for all things Indian), so they were subject to interpretations and bias. Just as we thought ‘no Indian could do this’, the Pakistanis thought ‘no Pakistani could do this’.

    So there must have been a lot of confusion in their mind. They were probably trying to make sense of the perpetrators, and one obvious candidate was Indian muslims. But so much carnage? Well, it could be the result of so much discrimination they have to face in their own country, Gujarat etc.. Is it so hard to think along these lines if you were a Pakistani?

    The point is, in the fog of bloodshed and confusion, nothing is clear. And when things are unclear, everyone tries to abosolve his own, instinctively, without hesitation. That’s exactly what the Pakistanis were doing. Nothing wrong with that. Wouldn’t you and I do the same thing? However, when things did get clear, the sane section of the society, such as represented here at PTH, did condemn it wholeheartedly, with a single-minded purpose, without rationalization.

    I think we should appreciate that and forget about who covered what.

  266. @no-communal

    The more I read your posts, the more I am reminded of Gorki – with one significant difference, thank Heavens. You come across increasingly as a genuinely nice person who wishes to see the good in every one, even proven scum-bags, regardless of caste, creed and community, as the cliche goes.

    Like you, I haven’t gone back that far in the PTH posts either. Unlike you, however, I was on PTH from around that time, and looked into posts a few days, even weeks older than the incident.

    What happened was very simple.

    If you look at ANY of the threads current now, you will see bright and evident, clear in the glaring light of day, a multitude of views, ranging from the most lofty and incisive thinking, like A. A. Khalid’s, to the penetrating and encyclopaedic, like Yasser’s, to the laconic and epigrammatic, like Hayyer, the gentle and reasonable, like Bin Ismail, and so on. The list is long; you will have found your own favourites, as we all tend to do.

    It included beasts too; the same kind of beasts who think so deviously about the Sialkot incident, or about the match-fixing scandal that is poised towering above every sports-lover’s head.

    So, on that occasion, the overwhelming sense on PTH was a sense of tragedy and inexpressible grief. It gripped us Indians immediately, and we realised that far from the alien monsters that we were fearfully peering out to discover, this was just another community like ourselves, different in not a single respect – not one.

    I suspect that the twit – my spelling is not good, as some have remarked, and I am not sure that I have used the vowel most appropriate to the occasion – who raised the issue would have come across one or two morbid remarks, and is banking on those for his grand moment. See how bad my grammar is? That should have read: ‘…and was banking on those…..’

    We are dealing with a personality issue, not an institutional issue. We are dealing with the monster called a troll. If you pay him back the favour he has paid all of us, and look at his posts, his early pose of homespun village antecedents slowly wears off, until now, except at sudden moments of recollection, his English is exemplary. Almost worthy of, say, the Royal College of Paediatricians and Child Health. That is just an example, but just to show how far people can go to make an impression. This is typical of a kind of personality that desperately seeks attention. It will do anything to get attention, even pour filth on others, abuse on himself, make little charades like this one, anything.

    Don’t waste your time on such. They are not worth it. But sometimes, others are.

    I spent this time on you in the hope that you will continue your sincere enquiries and postulations and will continue to edify us with your ethical approach.

  267. no-communal

    Hey, Raju Brother, if I may say so, why don’t you stay on. I don’t know how the moderators will like it, but your writings are well thought out, crisp, clear, albeit from a different viewpoint. May be not on this thread, but I hope the moderators have not banished you from all threads (coming to think of it, they did let your last post through even on this thread, didn’t they?)

  268. androidguy

    Raju Brother, IMHO, wasn’t a troll. Its your website, do what you like, but its disappointing if they get muzzled just because of a few posts here and there.

  269. Raza Raja

    @ no communal

    We dont want anyone to leave…
    personally I am not that much into moderating in my own articles unless someone gets abusive. Raju Brother and Shiv may not be liking Pakistan but they argue much intelligently and do not come across as bigoted.

    Moreover I would like to thank you for your excellent posts. I think you are quite good

  270. androidguy

    Vajra,

    “….You and I, we could immediately see through it. In fact, right when the whole incident was happening, we knew in our hearts that these guys were Pakistanis. Just as we thought ‘no Indian could do this’, the Pakistanis thought ‘no Pakistani could do this’…..”

    Vajraji, we never even thought “no Indian could do this” because we were sure the Pakistanis did this”. And we knew they could do this because we have seen it happening since the last 2 decades. And the PTH bloggers claim they have seen it for the last 2 decades. Then obviously they are not insightful enough to know that the m$^$&^%$& Paki Jihadis did it, or they were being m^%$&% disingenuous about it, much like their government was at that time.

  271. androidguy

    Edit: Sorry my post should have been directed to nocommunal instead of Vajra. My apologies.

    (Saw the longish post, automatically assumed it was Vajra’s handiwork!)

  272. Gorki

    ‘The more I read your posts, the more I am reminded of Gorki – with one significant difference, thank Heavens. You come across increasingly as a genuinely nice person….’

    @Vajra

    Whay did I do?😉

  273. Amit Kumar

    @no-communal
    I wish i could agree with you. Mumbai attack was not one off incidence.

    Here is what one of the founder of of PTH “Raza Rumi” (the founder and chief editor of Pak Tea House) has advised to his foreign ministry after his indian tour on invitation of govt of India.

    “Pakistan should demonstrate its resolve to pursue a proper investigation with respect to the Mumbai suspects, without compromising our national interests” ( published in The Friday Times)

    Read “WITHOUT COMPROMISING OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS”. What this means? If Pak Army and ISI (who runs foreign policy) thinks that bleed india by thousand cuts is in national interests.. its fine. Mr.Raza Rumi very well know this, so does he agree to this policy?? Why this disclaimer?

    To your statement “Just as we thought no Indian could do this”. I did not think so. Thanks to ISI and impotent indian government thats a very much of a possiblity.

  274. Wow !!
    How much can you guys talk and argue about almost frivolous issues like these ? And then you expect the governments to resolve issues like Kashmir ?

    Liberals, Right winged, Pakistanis and Indians – Taking a Stand does not mean Not Walking.

  275. Amit Kumar

    @DG. i am not doing any hate mongering. Just trying to ask the respected PTH, why your respected founder and chief editor is linking the justice of brutal killings of innocents with “national interests” . which is defined by Pak Army.

  276. you are very gud person you r helping people nice guyz
    i like you
    helping people