Under-reporting of non-Muslim Pakistanis – a major problem

Sardarji patrol- I almost got ticketed by him on Multan Road the other day for driving and taking his picture while driving.

     By Yasser Latif Hamdani

According to our official census Non-Muslims make up 3% of the Pakistani population.  In Punjab the number of Hindus is reported less than 20,000.   Sikhs are fewer than 10,000 – this too according to the official census.  Christians are said to be the second largest religious group in Pakistan with approximate 4 to 5  million adherents all over the country, again according to the official census.
These numbers don’t add up.  Catholics claim upto 5 million followers in Punjab alone and it by no means the only Christian denomination in the province of Punjab.  Then there is a large number of Christians living in Karachi and Sindh and sporadic numbers in Balochistan and NWFP. There are sizeable Sikh populations in pockets of Punjab, especially around Nankana Sahib and Hassan Abdal as well as NWFP.   Dawn recently reported the following:
Figures show about a million Hindus are living in the Punjab alone. The organisations working for welfare of Pakistan’s Hindu community such as Pakistan Balmik Sabha and Hindu Balmik Sudhar Sabha had been striving tirelessly since partition for funds for construction of a Shamshan Ghat in Lahore. The community partially succeeded in achieving the goal in 1976 when the Evacuee Property Trust Board allotted it a place on Bund Road for construction of a Shamshan Ghat. However, the land turned out to be a disputed property and the Hindus were made to vacate it.
There are about 4 million Hindus in Sindh and about half a million in Balochistan.   On the balance if Pakistan counts its minorities fairly,  it has between 13 to 14 million non-Muslims, not counting the 4 million forced non-Muslims of the Ahmadiyya community, which would make the number 18 million. 
It is not clear to me frankly what is to be gained by under-reporting Non-Muslims. It only paints Pakistan as an intolerant society.   If and when Pakistan decides to celebrate its diversity,  it will realize that it has proportionally as diverse a population as India if not more.    As author Tariq Ali wrote in one of his books, Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan was of  a Muslim majority version of India.  The sooner we accept this vision the better our chances of digging ourselves out of the hole of religious extremism that we find ourselves stuck in.

74 Comments

Filed under Jinnah's Pakistan, Pakistan, secular Pakistan, secularism

74 responses to “Under-reporting of non-Muslim Pakistanis – a major problem

  1. Junaid

    Correction:

    Ahmadis are wajib-ul-qatl(worth killing) heretics. They are not minorities. Heretics cannot be included as minorities.

  2. Junaid

    ^^

    Some how my tags didnt work.

    Here is what I wanted to say

    [Pun Intended]Ahmadis are wajib-ul-qatl(worth killing) heretics. They are not minorities. Heretics cannot be included as minorities.[/Pun Intended]

  3. ritu

    you seems to know a lot about minorities in pakistan.Have you (or anybody from pakistan)come across any jains ? there were lots jains in sindh and lahore during partition as we know. I did meet somebody at jaina convention whose family migrated from karachi and according to him from sindh they brought back 30 bullock-cart full of jain idiols from nearby area.
    thanks

  4. That is,nothing to say of millions of silent Pakistani ex-Muslims who are fearful of expressing their lack of faith openly.

    We the undersigned are proud heretics and skeptics of the religion of ‘the only-true-Believers’

  5. rationalist

    Ex-muslims are actually the vast majority in Pakistan. In no land does a majority live in such a silence and fear as this one. If you take into consideration the declarations/accusations of non-muslim-ness hurled at one another – I am right.

    Islam lives on fear and intimidation.

    How many became muslism out of fear and how many pretend to be muslims or remain nominally in islam out of fear?

  6. Amaar

    @rationalist, @ex-Muslim

    It is not Islam but Mullahism which lives on fear and intimidation.

  7. Guys & girls why not join us in free virtual world-wide-web ,where the JI kashafiat types cannot wield their Jamiat Gandasas.

    (Gandasa:Punjabi baton-stick used by filmstar Sultan Rahi to beat-up villians, in this case JI goons beating liberals, irreverent girls and heretics of Punjab University especially on festive occasions)

  8. rationalist

    to ammar

    you are blaming islam’s truest and most dedicated and authentic followers (the mullahs) for the sake of absolving the ideology itself. Not fair at all.

  9. HUMAN

    QUOTE [It is not clear to me frankly what is to be gained by under-reporting Non-Muslims. It only paints It is not clear to me frankly what is to be gained by under-reporting Non-Muslims. It only paints Pakistan as an intolerant society. . ] UNQUOTE

    A lot can be gained by under-reporting politically.More represntation in assemblies,More share in power..

    If you are correct.This is also an evidence of “Pakistan as an intolerant society”.

  10. HUMAN

    there was over-writing…correction please

    QUOTE [It is not clear to me frankly what is to be gained by under-reporting Non-Muslims. It only paints Pakistan as an intolerant society. . ] UNQUOTE

    A lot can be gained by under-reporting politically.More represntation in assemblies,More share in power..

    If you are correct.This is also an evidence of “Pakistan as an intolerant society”.

  11. Bin Ismail

    @ Junaid (August 13, 2010 at 5:35 pm)

    “…..[Pun Intended]Ahmadis are wajib-ul-qatl(worth killing) heretics. They are not minorities. Heretics cannot be included as minorities.[/Pun Intended]…..”

    Pun not intended : “Those who believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve, and then advance in disbelief, Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (4:137).

    Even if, for the sake of argument, Ahmadis were murtads (apostates) of the highest order, guilty of abandoning belief twice, after embracing it and then advancing in their disbelief after twice becoming murtad, the only penalty the Quran would award them would be that they would be denied God’s forgiveness and guidance. Still no corporal or capital punishment at the hands of other mortals.

    Pun not intended.

  12. Bin Ismail

    @ rationalist (August 13, 2010 at 8:45 pm)

    “…..to ammar: you are blaming islam’s truest and most dedicated and authentic followers (the mullahs) for the sake of absolving the ideology itself. Not fair at all…..”

    Dear rationalist, your congenital inability to differentiate between “Islam” and “Mullaism” has become obscenely apparent. Your irremediable handicap reminds me of this guy who could not distinguish between “rationality” and “irrationality” – and eventually succumbed to irrationality, thinking all the while that it was rationality.

    May the Lord have mercy on you.

  13. mubarak

    @bin ismail
    “Your irremediable handicap reminds me of this guy who could not distinguish between “rationality” and “irrationality” – and eventually succumbed to irrationality, thinking all the while that it was rationality.”

    is this guy you are being reminded of by any chance rationalist himself?

  14. Bade Miya

    “If and when Pakistan decides to celebrate its diversity, it will realize that it has proportionally as diverse a population as India if not more. ”

    That is a little hard to believe, even statistically.

  15. Pingback: Global Voices in English » Pakistan: Under-reporting of Non-Muslims

  16. Nusrat Pasha

    Dear fellow Pakistanis,

    Let us, with remorse recall the noble words of our Quaid, on the 63rd birthday of Pakistan:

    ” We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are ‘ALL’ Pakistanis. They will enjoy the ‘SAME’ rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.” (Quaid-e Azam, February 1948)

    Happy 14th August.

  17. Mahalingam Khan

    Bin Ismail,
    Thanks for the quote about the denying of forgiveness and guidance to Murtads by Allah. You have just proved the greatness, benevolence and supreme Divine nature of Allmighty per Islam, the final version of Truth from God. Its so strange that God can act in such childish manner but such are the bondages of dogma that even almighty is helpless to break this low level human behaviour while dealing with His own not so beloved people as created by HIM alone .

  18. rationalist

    to bin ismail

    who denies whom god’s mercy and guidance? a book that postulates such nonsense ought to be exposed as devil’s work. you have failed to do that all these centuries.

    god’s mercy and guidance does not come through a book at all. it is always human to human.

  19. Bin Ismail

    @ rationalist (August 14, 2010 at 8:58 am)

    I believe you’re referring to the verse of the Quran, that speaks about apostasy and its punishment 1.e. “Those who believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve, and then advance in disbelief, Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (Quran 4:137). The Divine punishment mentioned here is on account of the fact that the guilty himself has repeatedly trivialized and demeaned God’s forgiveness and guidance, thus voluntarily retracting from it. God’s punishment is merely a reflection of man’s own doing. For example, if you deliberately place your hand in fire, you repudiate the God-made law that “fire burns”. Your hand will indeed burn, not because God did not show you mercy but because you willfully withdrew from His mercy.

    True, God’s mercy comes through the agency of humans too. It however,does indeed manifest itself through His revelation as well, which is Divine mercy and guidance personified.

  20. Junaid

    @ Bin Ismail

    You seem to have not understood the very verse you quoted yourself from the Quran

    Lets read it again.

    “Those who believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve, and then advance in disbelief, Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (4:137).

    According to the verse above, which you have quoted yourself, the person who is going to judge all these wajib-ul-qatl murtads is none other then Allah himself.

    Do you agree?

    The responsibility of judging apostates is in hands of Allah. Not in the hands of Pakistani army or Pakistani state which is not an Islamic state. May be in name only.

    So you get my point?

    Last of all you are quoting this verse out of context.

    The verse specifically refers to those Meccans who used to embrace Islam after the migration to Median to go and spy on Muslims.

    Later on they used to go back to Mecca and give up the secrets of Medina and aid the Meccans in attacking Medina.

    When captured, they used to say they are Muslims and then get back to their same old ways.

    My argument is supported by the wordings of the verse where the verses says

    1. believe and then disbelieve,
    2. then again believe and then
    3. again disbelieve,
    4. and then advance in disbelief

    So they embrace Islam, spy on Medina, go back and disbelief, (that is join the Meccans again), then come back to Medina and embrace Islam again and then spy again and go back to Mecca again and so on.

    The fact that the Prophet did not put to death his own personal scribe, who had joined the Meccans due to a personal conflict with the prophet clearly shows that any one who leaves Islam is to be left alone.

    Why did the prophet not kill the apostate scribe Abdallah Ibn Saad?

    Go and do some reading on Abdallah Ibn Saad the apostate scribe.

  21. Junaid

    @Bin Ismail

    Even if, for the sake of argument, Ahmadis were murtads (apostates) of the highest order, guilty of abandoning belief twice, after embracing it and then advancing in their disbelief after twice becoming murtad, the only penalty the Quran would award them would be that they would be denied God’s forgiveness and guidance. Still no corporal or capital punishment at the hands of other mortals.

    Try to see the verses in their historical context.

    The “Murtads” which the Quran refers to were actually spies who had embraced Islam and living among Muslims solely for the reason of spying and helping Mecca militarily. So the Quranic Murtads are basically spies of the enemy trying to hard the community.

    The “Murtads” you want to deny God’s mercy and guidance are not spies of any enemy. They are simply people who do not share the same belief as you do.

    So they are ideologically different then you.

    Last of all who are you to decide who can be denied the guidance and mercy of God and who will get to have a green card to heaven?

  22. Bin Ismail

    @ Junaid (August 14, 2010 at 11:13 am)

    “…..You seem to have not understood the very verse you quoted yourself from the Quran…..”

    I assure you I have no claim over being all-comprehending. Perhaps I was not able to express myself precisely and comprehensively. The point or points, I was trying to put across are as follows:

    1. “Irtidaad” or apostasy refers to renunciation of faith, whereby the “murtad” or renouncer openly declares, by free will, that he no longer subscribes to the faith.

    2. There is no corporal or capital punishment whatsoever, prescribed by the Quran, to be executed through human hands, for the sin of “irtidaad” or apostasy per se.

    3. For the “repetitive murtad”, the punishment mentioned is not a corporal one or a physical one, but the spiritual chastisement of losing Divine forgiveness and guidance. The reason for this is that the person guilty of repeated apostasy has himself, by volition abandoned Divine forgiveness and guidance. So essentially, he gets what he opted for.

    4.” Treason” is a state very different in nature from “Apostasy”. Apostasy per se, is not punishable but treason against the state, whether the state may be a Muslim-majority state or otherwise, is punishable by all standards. High treason and espionage against the state are punishable even in secular countries, and even today. Of course, as you rightly contend, someone guilty of spying or scheming against the Prophet, would obviously have to qualify as an apostate, before actually indulging in high treason.

    5. The scribe you’ve mentioned was guilty only of renouncing his faith, for which there was no prescribed punishment. Hence, he was not punished. By the way, this person was not the only person guilty of apostasy, during the Prophet’s lifetime, but none of them, save those who were additionally implicated in high treason, very much a distinctly separate offence, were ever punished.

    After graciously considering these 5 points, you may like to read the verse in question, once again, and assess my viewpoint:

    “ Those who believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve, and then advance in disbelief, Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (Quran 4:137).

    Regards.

  23. Bin Ismail

    @ Junaid (August 14, 2010 at 11:20 am)

    “…..Last of all who are you to decide who can be denied the guidance and mercy of God and who will get to have a green card to heaven?…..”

    Seldom have I been as grossly misunderstood as I have, by you.

    Indeed I am nobody to decide who will be denied the guidance and mercy of God. On the other hand, you too, may I respectfully assume, are nobody to ascribe to others ideas that they themselves detest.

    The point I was trying to make was that even for repeated apostasy, there is no corporal punishment in the Quran. The punishment for repeated apostasy is a chastisement that is spiritual, and not corporal, in nature. This chastisement, as stated by God is, in His words:

    ” Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path ” (Quran 4:137).

    The simple message, my friend, is that for someone who wishes to repeatedly evade the Path and avoid Divine forgiveness, his wish may well be be granted.

  24. rationalist

    bin ismail writes:
    “The simple message, my friend, is that for someone who wishes to repeatedly evade the Path and avoid Divine forgiveness, his wish may well be be granted.”

    Can you name some such persons? Don’t pretend wisdom by using evasive terminology.

  25. Bin Ismail

    @ rationalist (August 14, 2010 at 2:19 pm)

    There are no lists of the unfortunate. This, Sir, is a blank cheque.

  26. Junaid

    The scribe you’ve mentioned was guilty only of renouncing his faith, for which there was no prescribed punishment.

    Bull shit. Complete Bull shit.

    Read any tafseer and it will mention that he was at the forefront of anti-Muslim activities in Mecca after fleeing to Mecca.

    High treason and espionage against the state are punishable even in secular countries, and even today.

    Yes, Agree. And that is what the Quran is referring to.

    Those Meccans who used to declare their conversion to Islam used to do so only for spying on Medina and Muslims. Since they knew they will not be harmed while they profess Islam.

    So they used the ideological benefits of Islam to spy on Muslims.

    It was in connection to these spies that the verse was revealed.

    This is what I am trying to get into your head.

    Quran clearly says that “THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION”

    I am sure this compulsion applies to leaving Islam as well.

    Hope you can understand things in a historical context.

  27. Junaid

    The point I was trying to make was that even for repeated apostasy, there is no corporal punishment in the Quran. The punishment for repeated apostasy is a chastisement that is spiritual, and not corporal, in nature

    Unfortunately, many people more knowledgeable in Islam then you do not agree with your statement. For example see the late Maulana Israr on the punishment for Apostasy

    youtube.com/watch?v=5Er_8J50koI

    Watch between 0:53 secs to 0:55 secs.

    So should I believe you or should I trust Maulana Israr who was a better scholar then you?

  28. Junaid

    Here is Dr Naik with the same opinion.

    Seems you are not correct.

    youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI

  29. Junaid

    And last of all, just a little clarification.

    I confess that I have used youtube videos uploaded by some Ahmadi guy, however, that does not mean I am not Ahmadi. Some times Ahmadis can be right as well.

    So please don’t hijack the discussion by saying that I am Ahmadi.

    I am not!

  30. Sajjad Zaheer was arrested for “anti-Muslim activities”, Thana SHO asked him .”Are you Ahmadi?”

    SZ laughed and said,”I have serious doubts about the guy who came 1400 years ago and you are asking about this idiot who was a Putwari(Land Accountant) of the British Crown.”

  31. Shah Zaman

    I think both Junaid and Bin Islamil agree that there is no worldly punishment in Islam for a person who simply leaves the fold of Islam by renouncing his faith. I concur their views and will just add something with reference to the following verse:

    “Those who believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve, and then advance in disbelief, Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (4:137).

    It is pertinent to note that here the reference has been to a person who became Muslim again after renouncing his faith and then again became a non-Muslim, as it is said: “believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve”. The person referred to in this verse is the one who renounced his faith twice and not just once.

    If a ‘murtad’ is liable to death penalty upon renouncing his faith the first time, then how can he again convert to Islam – He should already be dead!

    Clearly, the death penalty for a ‘murtad’ is not backed by any Quranic verse. On the contrary, Quran is clear that the person should be set free and even allowed to return to his faith.

    The punishment for spying (for enemies) is something totally separate and should not be confused with the renouncement of ones faith. This punishment applies even in secular societies.

  32. neel123

    In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2% in the years since independence. According to the 1998 Pakistan Census, caste Hindus constitute about 1.6 percent of the total population of Pakistan and about 6.6% in province of Sindh. The Pakistan Census separates Schedule Castes from the main body of Hindus who make up a further 0.25% of national population

    Says it all ………

    After 64 years of systematically decimating the minorities, specially the Hindus, little will be achieved now by addressing the under-reporting issue.

    It is too late ……. !

  33. YLH

    I’d like to see this census every Indian and his mother in law talks about.

    East Pakistan had a 20 percent population… but West Pakistan probably had 10 to 12 percent.

    Punjab on both sides went through complete ethnic cleansing. Hindu population in Sindh has remained more or less constant.

    May I suggest to Neel that our non-Muslims are not your fucking business anymore than Indian Muslims are ours.

    I am not sure you have a locus standi. I haven’t written this post for Indian consumption and you frankly are not welcome to post here anymore.

  34. AA khalid

    ”I’d like to see this census every Indian and his mother in law talks about”

    I am afraid what neel has done is copy and past blindly like a fool from the Wikipedia article which provides no citation or reference to this assertion(in the form of a census):

    Neel wrote:

    ”In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2% in the years since independence.”

    Surprise surprise on wikipedia it says:

    ”In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2% in the years since independence.

    According to the 1998 Pakistan Census, caste Hindus constitute about 1.6 percent of the total population of Pakistan and about 6.6% in province of Sindh. The Pakistan Census separates Schedule Castes from the main body of Hindus who make up a further 0.25% of national population”

    Note to Neel just because its on wikipedia doesn’t make it gospel truth. There is no reference, citation or evidence for your assertion.

    So I suggest stop shamefully copying and pasting and get down to some real research.

  35. YLH

    Quote these figures with the relevant sources please. Are you talking province wise numbers …are you accounting for partition of Punjab.

  36. Tilsim

    I think the under reporting is an issue in itself. For me the bigger area of focus needs to be developing a multicultural/multi-religious identity called ‘Pakistani’. For this we need to get to know each other better. I think the major cities of Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi and Peshawar are far ahead of the towns and rural areas in this respect because people have family in these various cities and travel around. However, to truly appreciate another cultural and religion, one needs to know it’s heros, it’s history, it’s current concerns and it’s qualities. We also need to encourage political rights, social mobility across the country, inter-marriage and tolerance for differences.

    We need to celebrate the role that ethnic ad religious minorities have played in the development of the nation. Let’s just take the legal profession as an example, everyone needs to know about Rana Bhagwandas who was acting Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (Hindu) or Justice Cornelius (Roman Catholic) or Justice Dorab Patel (Parsee).

    In fact, it would be a good exercise to ask readers to give the names of famous Pakistanis from religious or ethnic minorities in business, cinema, sport, music, army, medicine, politics. I think we will realise that it’s the way we think, which is the problem.

  37. Rajan

    Being an agnostic it is easier for me to understand the comments posted by @rationalist and @ex-Muslim. But, I don’t follow the religious comments made by some others, particularly @Bin Ismail.
    As far as the various religions are concerned, long ago, I made an effort to understand them, but, to be frank, none of them could make me a devout believer. However, thanks to the Jainism, Buddhism and theory of Advaitvavada ( singularity ) propounded by Adi Shankaracharya I was saved from becoming an ardent atheist.The first two religions i.e Jainism and Buddhism reject the concept of God and stress on the life and means with which a person can achieve ‘nirvana’ the eternal peace. whereas, the theory of Advaitva states that everything that exists is God including the ‘conscious’ beings like humans and animals. Once, the super conscious beings like humans realize their true ‘identity’ they would merge with the universal singularity called God.
    I am not convinced. But, that doesn’t mean that I have no respect for the greats like Lord Mahaveera, Lord Buddha and Lord Adi Shankaracharya.
    You may be wondering as to why I am dwelling on the religious philosophies here on this blog. That is because some of the commentators are discussing as to who is ‘wajib ul katal’ ( deserved to be killed ) and who is not, just because a certain sect’s beliefs are different. Aren’t you guys insulting Lord Mohammad and his teachings? I studied abrahamic religions a little and it failed to impress me either, but those who call themselves as the ‘true’ followers of Islam, seems to have become it’s biggest enemies.

  38. Shah Zaman

    I think we should not get emotional. If someone is misguided, then the best way to interact is to engage and educate him, rather than turn him away; as that will only allow him to remain ignorant and spread the disinformation elsewhere. Equally important is to educate ourselves and accept our wrongs.

    According to the 1998 official census of the GoP, the total population of Pakistan was 132.4m (over 13 crores) which included 127.4m Muslims (excluding Ahmadis estimated at 0.3m), 2.1m Christians, 2.1m Jat Hindus, 0.3m scheduled castes and o.1m others. You may find these official statistics at statpak dot gov dot pk/depts/fbs/publications/yearbook2009/Population/16-16 dot pdf

    I am not sure to what extent the above is correct. Personally, I have serious reservations on these numbers.

  39. Shah Zaman

    And if you go to the link set out in my post above, it should provide you breakdown as to each province and Islamabad and further between urban and rural within each province and Islamabad…

    Of the total number of Hindus reported in the official statistics at 2.1m, more than 1.98m are in Sindh and, within that province, more than 1.5m are in rural areas…

  40. The question of each other’s minorities is the scratch on the vinyl that comes up at synchronous intervals in any Indo-Pakistani discussion.

    Is it any of our business as Indians what Pakistan chooses to do about its minority population? I think not, except for believers in the Two Nation Theory, who continue to believe in it, long after it has been exploded into tiny, little, glittering pieces; there are such believers on both sides of the Radcliffe Line, irrespective of what the Sangh Parivar and its poisonous brood states in public.

    It is, on the other hand, hugely our business what happens to minorities on the Indian side. We have already talked to death the idea that identity is not a synonym for religious affiliation, but that religion is one of the markers. From that point of view, the atheists and agnostics can also claim that they are ‘nations’, in the identity sense of the word ‘nation’, and claim special protection. Not every preacher in Pakistan, and surprisingly, not every preacher in India is a non-violent apostle of peace.

    We need to be protected against pests like the Jehovah’s Witnesses who barge into your house and insist on saving your soul from hellfire and damnation; like the chopper-armed Islamists who go around executing summary corporal punishment on all who are opposed to their extreme views on sharia law and on how other religions should behave; or like the Sangh Parivar’s devotees of the auto-da-fe as an instrument of gentle persuasion, as the denizens of Kandhamal found out.

    It isn’t just that. It’s using the license of religion, or conflating religion and culture, a wonderful way to avoid debate or discussion by invoking the ancient ways, to lay down rules of how others should behave in public, rules quite arbitrarily decided by bigots and fascists combined in smoke-filled back-rooms. These belong to all parties; the rightists provided them wherever they ruled, the Congress apes them wherever they return to power, in a race to play to the resentful, wannabe, never_going_to_make_it gallery.

    That is what we have to guard against even at superficial level. At deeper levels, our failure to cope with multiple identities, and to create mechanisms to deal with nascent identity formation has led to the Naga rebellion, to the Naxalite movement in the central forests of India, and to the gross excesses of the elected government in the only Scheduled Caste friendly government in the country.

    But we decided that we wanted diversity, we actually took pride in it, and we are committed to this course unless we want to go through social upheavals in order to back-track to a different, mono-cultural, far more objectionable social pattern.

    If Pakistan has decided, not at the level of its articulate and sensitive liberal element in society but at a different level, where the writ of the mullah runs in practical terms, runs far more than does the writ of Parliament or democratically elected bodies, what can any Indian do? For that matter, what would any Indian want to do? Why? If Pakistan lands up as an arid state, providing neither sustenance nor nourishment for diverse beliefs and faiths, it is the choice of the Pakistani citizen taken as a whole, across sectarian groupings. How can this be resisted by Indians, and what is the legitimacy of such efforts by Indians? If the Pakistani elite sees the dangers lying ahead and works hard and on an emergent basis to turn the tide, something may be accomplished.

    But nothing can be accomplished by Indians pointing out in sanctimony and a mocking display of virtue that Pakistan hasn’t done this particular bit of nation-building very well. There is no practical value to this; there is even less academic value to this, since this forum itself will demonstrate that every liberal Pakistani, for that matter, even the observant Muslim Pakistani liberal, knows very well that desperate and urgent course correction is needed. However, only one set of hands is needed at the wheel; kibitzing from the sidelines is singularly unhelpful. I believe that any attempt at analysing the population’s wishes had best be left with the Pakistani establishment.

  41. Mahalingam Khan

    Bin Ismail,
    Going by your book and its logic, the Almighty has been brought down to cheap sub-human level thinking. How can a supreme being being be so devoid of Divinity or divine blessings ? What is the use of “Allah’ if HE cant forgive and then claim He is all forgiving and all merciful ? Simply illogical and base thinking and nothing mental or spiritual uplifting about it.

  42. YLH

    NSA …quote the relevant source and a comparison.

  43. Tilsim

    @ Bathplug

    You of course make absolute sense. It’s quite remarkable that people can spend so much energy worrying about other nation’s issues when they have much to do at home.

    @ NSA

    If General Musharraf said it or terrorists are taking up militancy, it does n’t make one iota of difference. It’s a fact that a Pakistani is not in a position to carp (because of our own challenges) or suggest remedies to Indians (because you did n’t ask and we can’t know the objective situation on the ground) and the same applies vice versa. We can learn from each other’s experience to improve things in our shop and nothing more. We are also fully aware of the difficulties minorities face.

    If the objective on the other hand is just to knock the other person down and get some sadistic pleasure out of it, then there is a whole army of such people dropping their inane comments all over the web. They give a poor reflection of themselves and their nation.

    It’s much more constructive to talk about the objective situation and how it can be changed. As such PTH should be a platform for demonstrating original thought that can benefit humanity and change attitudes.

  44. YLH

    PS on the non-Muslim population in 1947 for west Punjab.

  45. Tilsim

    My suggestion is that we impress on the government to promote a celebration of diversity week in Pakistan. People have to realise that other people also live in this country, they have a stake and they should be celebrated and respected.

    We should have a week of events in school and at a national level that highlight the rich cultural and religious tapestry of the country. The schools and the media can particularly take a lead here as well as theater groups.

    The state should establish and fund a diversity council. One of the activities of the counsel should be raising the awareness of diversity and tolerance.

    The minority groups should be encouraged individually or collectively to come forward raise funds and coordinate activities for such a week involving the general public that would be of benefit to them.

  46. Bin Ismail

    @ Junaid (August 14, 2010 at 6:29 pm)

    Let me begin by assuring you that I respect your opinion even in the face of disagreement. Of course, I wish I could say the same for your irritability.

    What you hastily branded as “bullshit”, perhaps calls for closer examination. The issue at hand, which apparently has been missed is that there is a difference between apostasy and high treason. Abdullah’s apostasy became evident while he was still in Madina, for which he was not penalized. Abdullah’s treachery however, did become manifest after he left Madina. My point was that had there been any punishment for apostasy alone, he would have received it in Madina.

    Regarding your point on compulsion in matters of faith, the Quran’s verdict is absolutely clear: “There is no coercion in matters of religion.” (Quran 2:256). I fully agree that this Divine rule of “no coercion” applies to all 4 situations:

    (a) forcing someone to accept a certain religion
    (b) forcing someone to observe religion in a certain way
    (c) preventing someone from leaving the fold of a certain religion
    (d) forcing someone out of a certain religion

    God does not permit coercion in any of these 4 situations.

    Lastly, with respect to late Israr Ahmed and Zakir Naik, I respect your affiliation with them. Personally, however, I do not consider them as the authority. I suppose we can agree to disagree on that score.

    @ Mahalingam Khan (August 14, 2010 at 10:08 pm)

    “…..What is the use of “Allah’ if HE cant forgive and then claim He is all forgiving and all merciful? Simply illogical……”

    Do you find it logical that God would not warn man of the possible outcomes of his errors? The words ”Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (Quran 4:137), are in essence a warning, an admonition to save man, not to condemn him eternally. Quranic admonitions should always be read in conjunction with verses that promise forgiveness to those who reform themselves. Only then do you get the whole picture.

  47. Yes because India’s treatment of minorities always comes up from the Pakistan side in discussion of hot issues like J&K or terrorism.

    And are we such a fragile and vulnerable people that this should bother us? Or so foolish that we cannot see through this and tell our counterparts to take a hike?

    It’s like saying that the fast bowlers in a cricket match can’t help no-balling consistently because they are so enraged at the results of the hockey match on the pitch nearby. Even more accurately, the results of a hockey match played months ago.

  48. Girish

    YLH,

    The census of Pakistan of 1951 separates the 1941 census numbers for East and West Punjab district by district (and wherever the partition line divided a district, at a lower level of aggregation, even down to the village level in cases) to arrive at the population numbers by religious group in the areas that became Pakistan. Similarly, for East and West Bengal and Assam.

    As per these numbers, the proportion of non-Muslims in West Pakistan as of 1941 was 20.9% and in East Pakistan, it was 29.5%. These went down in 1951 to 3.3% and 23.1% respectively. For Pakistan as a whole, the non-Muslim proportion went down from 26.0% to 15.1% in the same period.

    In Punjab, on both sides, there was almost total ethnic cleansing – in all of West Punjab and in the Sikh dominated areas of East Punjab (which now constitute the Indian state of Punjab). In other parts of Punjab, the Muslim population was small to begin with and it did not drop as drastically either.

    These are census numbers – it cannot be more authentic than that. The Census of Pakistan 1951 can be accessed in many public libraries in the West.

  49. mubarak

    @YLH

    “…you frankly are not welcome to post here anymore…”

    another banning?

  50. Girish

    YLH also mentioned that Sind’s Hindu population remained more or less constant after partition. This is not quite corrrect.

    As per the Census of Pakistan, Sindh’s non-Muslim population (mostly Hindus, a miniscule number of Sikhs) went down from 28.6% to 8.5% between 1941 and 1951. In Sindh, the non-Muslim population declined further after 1951 (as it did in East Bengal).

    Just for comparison, the Muslim population in India went down from 13.2% in 1941 to 9.7% in 1951

  51. M3ntally disturbed

    @girish

    plz dont forget 1947 the partition in which migration from both sides of the border took place and quoting the data of 1951 which is 4 years after 1947 might give you result like this😛

    there are many reasons (e-g) people migrating or killings during partitions both Muslim and non-Muslim killing

    the thing will be to compare the population propotion since inpendence of Pakistan and then we will see has it reall changed or not

  52. mubarak

    @Mahalingam Khan
    “…What is the use of “Allah’ if HE cant forgive and then claim He is all forgiving and all merciful ? Simply illogical and base thinking and nothing mental or spiritual uplifting about it…”

    Allah is not saying he “can’t” forgive, in fact Allah wants to forgive as you pointed out when He calls himself all forgiving all merciful. However, even a parent must eventually punish a child if a child increases in rebelliousness and disobedience to his parent. The point is to bring about reform in the child. It is also worthy of noting that in Islam, withdrawing of forgiveness from Allah is not an eternal thing, it lasts until the necessary reformation is accomplished. Forgiveness, compassion, from Allah are eternal however.

  53. Girish

    m3ntally disturbed:

    Where in my quoting of the census numbers did you see me implying why these numbers are what they are? These are just clarifications of numbers which the people posting here clearly did not have an idea of. I merely quoted the numbers from the Census documents since I have access to them – others may not as easily have access.

  54. Tilsim

    I don’t understand this infatuation with numbers. Does it matter if it’s one number or the other – we know roughly what they are. What matters is people’s attitude towards others.

    Frankly the Indians posting here are not helping us to discuss and explore what is happening in Pakistan. I would welcome our Indian friends views if they are constructive but I find that this very worthy topic is not generating the insight or the creative ideas that are needed.

    Indians have a huge number of their own minority issues and internal insurgencies going on, most notably Kashmir. See the article by Subodh Varma, a million mutinies now in Times of India today. I think some domestic attention would be a good use of time. I think it would be more appropriate to give Pakistanis the space to not get sidetracked by an India v Pakistan discussion or whether the census numbers are quite correct from an Indian perspective. The census numbers are not going to solve the issues in Pakistan.

  55. NSA

    And are we such a fragile and vulnerable people that this should bother us? Or so foolish that we cannot see through this and tell our counterparts to take a hike?

    It’s like saying that the fast bowlers in a cricket match can’t help no-balling consistently because they are so enraged at the results of the hockey match on the pitch nearby. Even more accurately, the results of a hockey match played months ago.

    We’re not talking of ordinary political differences here, e.g., American Republican versus Democrat. (I can’t say PPP vs ANP, etc., because that brings up Karachi.) When JeM kills people, there is absolutely no sports analogy that is appropriate.

  56. Mahalingam Khan

    Mubarak
    First the verse dontw arn but gives judgement that “Allah wont forgive” and if Allah dont forgive then He cant be all fogiving and merciful.
    Per your Book logic God must be brought to human discipline straight jacket and this is why Eternal Hell Fire is lighted by “God “for such a long time to administer Punishement . Allah warns , Allah must Punish , is all but human shortcoming and might work for childish discourse but assigning these quaities to One who is beyond these schackles is at best subject for immature minds. If “Allah” want be true universal God then He must display such mercy, divinity and pureness with complete adsence of any sense of discrimination that any living entity who come in material or immaterial contact with Him must get ultimate reward otherwise what you assign to Him are disqualifying qualities born of human limitations.

  57. Tilsim

    NSA

    “Make every child learn to be able to make that speech from memory. If that message is internalized, all problems within and without Pakistan will be solved.”

    Not a bad idea. We learn so much by rote. Why not this too.

  58. Mahalingam Khan

    Bin Ismail
    The words ”Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path”

    Using the word “will not and nor will” are clear indication of intent and judgement and there is no allusion to “warning”. What i want to know is how can a God say “I wont purify nor will i guide and nor will i bless or forgive “. To my mind this particular “i” of above supposed God is not big enough to transcend average human intelligence and goodness and yet case is made for One True Universal God for this indulging in trivial affairs of humanity.

  59. Girish

    Tilsim,

    I don’t know if you are referring to me. I did not introduce the discussion about numbers. There were some very inaccurate facts/numbers being thrown around and I have merely corrected them. Please continue your discussion sans the numbers.

  60. Girish

    Oh, BTW numbers are vitally important. The whole premise of the post is based on that. And as the experience of this thread shows, we don’t even roughly know what the numbers are. See some even otherwise well read folks throw around numbers that are way off mark.

    But I have had my say on this and will watch from the stands while others discuss this issue.

  61. Junaid

    @Bin Ismail

    The problem is not what you think or what Islam says. The problem is how the masses led by their religious bigots think.

    And whether you think or not according to two prominent Muslim scholars of the present day, the punishment for leaving Islam is death.

    And that is what I am trying to address. No need to go into the details of Quranic verses.

  62. Dastagir

    SO MUCH OF RELIGION YET SO LITTLE OF HUMANITY ? WHY… How did things come to such a pass ?

    In India, we have so much of religion., traditions, customs, symbology, superb classical music, religious songs, kirgtans, abhangs, aartis… such wonderful heritage… Kishori Amonkar singing in the background.. to the violent scene of educated hindu men raping muslim girls and throwing them into fire in Gujarat. Men being burnt alive… in thousands.. How to blend both Kishori Amonkar and Babu Bajrangi ? Who holds real power ? Who represents Hinduism ??? Kishori or Bajrangi ?

    Ans : Kishori represents it in the Seminar Room / conference… whereas Bajrangi represents it on the streets ! (Jai Ho Street Power). When Bajrangi comes with a 5000-strong armed SENA., Arundhati Roy, Mallika Sarabhai, Harsh Mandar, Teesta Setalvad, Shanti Bhushan…. CANNOT save you from barbaric death. That is the reality. You can re-word it this way… while Kishori’s music may represent a “facet” of Hinduism… the real power of Bajrangi on the street., represents the REAL practical and pragmatic face of Hinduism., as it stands on the ground today.

    While Babu Bajrangi and Narendra Modi will eventually lead to the destruction of Hinduism… in the short term… they do provide succour… and sustenance. Raping Killing and Looting provides IMMEDIATE BENEFITS. Babu Bajrangi feels like Maharana Pratap… cuz after raping/killing., he also illegally occupied homes belonging to Muslims. In a 24-hour operation., he occupied 12 homes ! So isnt rioting a profitable business !! All in the name of God !!

    The same goes for the Taliban-Mullah.. Does the Mullah represent Islam. The answer is NO. Then how come, no one stands up to him. Ordinary muslims must not only IGNORE SILENTLY the Mullah, but must stop him… by holding his hand. Then peace will reign on the ground. Dont give him a stage… to preach hatred.

    Likewise, Hindus must hold the hand of Praveen Togadia, Bajrangi, Singhal and Narendra Modi. When they vote for Narendra Modi consecutively, it is proof enough that they believe in Modi’s ideology…

    But then BJP is failing on an all-india basis. BJP-RSS dont represent hindus… they are a fringe element. I do not accept that logic. A fringe element does not win 150 seats in the Lok Sabha (150 out of 560.. is not a fringe element). A fringe element does not hold power in 7 states in India !BJP’s rise is startling… shocking… bewildering. The more Congress becomes dynastic… the more space it yeilds to the BJP-RSS. Infact intellectually, Congress is a dead party. BJP rules the hearts and minds of Indians… that IS a fact.

    Someone said in the 1940s : “Below every Gandhi cap., is the mind ruled by Hindu Maha Sabha”. This is true. BJP-RSS have conquered Indian MINDS… and that is more than winning elections. This intellectual challenge by the BJP-RSS must be met on the intellectual plane. But who will do it ? Rahul Gandhi ? Unfortunately he is not a leader of the stature of Jawaharlal Nehru ! You need to take this discourse… down to the street-corner… to the pan shop… to the restaurant.. to the village chow-paal level.

    IF India (and by extension Pakistan) fail to control these ugly extremist private mafia groups (RSS – which is the world’s largest terrorist organisation with its institutionalised riot systems… and the Taliban-Mullah combine); then the long-term prospect of these country is grim. There will be wars and wars and wars… as the secular space would be completely eaten away by these ugly monsters waving swords and spears.

  63. Bin Ismail

    @ Mahalingam Khan (August 15, 2010 at 4:19 am)

    “…..Using the word “will not and nor will” are clear indication of intent and judgement and there is no allusion to “warning”…..”

    If you were to come across an electrified fence with a warning signboard saying “Warning! 1000V”, would you appreciate that as a benevolent warning or a ‘clear indication of intent’?

    @ Junaid (August 15, 2010 at 8:24 am)

    1. “…..The problem is not what you think or what Islam says. The problem is how the masses led by their religious bigots think…..”

    I would hardly disagree with you on that note. The religious bigots are indeed the problem themselves.

    2. “…..And whether you think or not according to two prominent Muslim scholars of the present day, the punishment for leaving Islam is death…..”

    That’s funny. After recognizing the role of the religious bigots, in the same breath you appear to be endorsing their bigotry by endorsing that “the punishment for leaving Islam is death”.

    3. “…..And that is what I am trying to address. No need to go into the details of Quranic verses…..”

    God is telling us that the punishment of apostasy is not death but couple of scholars disagree with God. Are you in any way suggesting that the word of “scholars” supersedes the word of God?

  64. Shah Zaman

    @Junaid:

    Would you prefer the word of a so-called scholar over a clear pronouncement of God?

    Allah says:

    “Those who believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve, and then advance in disbelief, Allah will not grant them forgiveness nor will He guide them to the Path” (4:137).

    The reference in the above verse is to a person who became Muslim again after renouncing his faith and then again became a non-Muslim, as it is said: “believe and then disbelieve, then again believe and then again disbelieve”. There is a clear reference to renunciation of the faith twice, and not just once.

    If a ‘murtad’ is liable to death penalty upon renouncing his faith for the first time, then how can he again convert to Islam – he should already be killed!

    Wish if these religious bigots could use their kidneys, as they don’t have brains for sure.

  65. Junaid

    @Bin Ismail and Shah Zaman

    Try explaining that to the illiterate Muslim masses who are reliant upon their Mullahs for the interpretation of Islam.

    I very well know whats written in Quran.

  66. Shah Zaman

    @Junaid:

    And if you very well know what is written in Quran then you should be exposing the real face of these thug mullahs in your writings. At the very least, you should not be sounding like endorsing the views of these bigots by referring to them as “prominent Muslim scholars”.

  67. Mahalingam Khan

    Bin Ismail
    So Allah ‘s words, supposed supreme Lord are equal in measure to a dead, unconscious material like electrified fence. and all this roar from Allah just becuase of trivial affair like that of being murtad or spy . How do you apply this on universal standard when all it indicate is just human efforts and struggle within a small uncivilized tribal society. There is no Divinity of Godliness in the whole affair but threats etc like that of a local thug policeman. None of them pretains to spritual devolpment but to exert control with show of force. There is no such logical thing as God wont, Cant or Will not unless the its subject of mundane affairs by mundane men with mundane mind with no hint of elevated soul in sight.

  68. Bin Ismail

    @Junaid (August 15, 2010 at 7:42 pm)

    “…..Try explaining that to the illiterate Muslim masses…..”

    There was nobody as conscientious regarding his duty as the Holy Prophet himself. No one ever tried harder and better than the Holy Prophet to explain things to people and no prophet was ever confronted with the challenge of explaining to a more illiterate people. Yet we see that God says to the Prophet: “We have not sent thee as a guardian over them. Thy duty is only to convey.” [Quran 42:48] We also read: “You are merely an admonisher; you are not a magistrate over them.” [Quran 88:21,22]

    So, conveying the message is perhaps the best and most one can do. If the Holy Prophet was not required to do more, we the humblest of his servants could not conceivably do more.

    @Mahalingam Khan (August 15, 2010 at 8:45 pm)

    1. “…..So Allah ‘s words, supposed supreme Lord are equal in measure to a dead, unconscious material like electrified fence…..”

    The analogy has been regrettably misunderstood. God has not been compared to the electrified fence, but for the sake of argument, to the authority who, out of concern for the wellbeing of people, issued the warning by placing the warning sign.

    2. “…..There is no Divinity of Godliness in the whole affair but threats etc like that of a local thug policeman…..”

    You are drawing your conclusion, after reading only one verse of the Quran – and that too irrationally. To compassionately alert and forewarn His creatures of impending risks and lurking dangers, is Divinity indeed. This is not comparable to threats from a policeman, but to admonition from a loving and caring parent.

    3. “…..There is no such logical thing as God wont, Cant or Will not…..”

    God is the master of His will. If He says He won’t, He won’t, unless He Himself changes His decision. Who are we to question His discretion?

  69. Bin Ismail

    @ Tilsim (August 14, 2010 at 8:44 pm)

    “…..everyone needs to know about Rana Bhagwandas who was acting Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (Hindu) or Justice Cornelius (Roman Catholic) or Justice Dorab Patel (Parsee)…..”

    May I respectfully add to your list of “Unsung Heroes of Pakistan” who remain unsung solely because of the fact that they are admittedly non-Muslim Pakistanis:

    1. Justice Cornelius: Pakistani Christian – a jurist of international respect and standing.

    2. Cecil Chauhdry: Pakistani Christian – an ace pilot of the PAF and hero of 1965 air battle.

    3. Wing Commander Mervyn Middlecoat (Shaheed): Pakistani Christian – a pilot of the PAF who laid down his life for Pakistan during the ’71 war.

    4. Prof. Jagannaath Azad: Pakistani Hindu – later on moved to India because he could not see Jinnah’s dream of a Secular Pakistan evaporating – the poet who wrote the first National Anthem of Pakistan upon the personal request of Quaid-e Azam, an anthem that was abandoned shortly after the death of Quaid-e Azam.

    5. Justice Rana Bhagwan Das: Pakistani Hindu – a revered and renowned jurist.

    6. Ms Mani Contractor: Pakistani Parsi – a devoted and committed educationist who contributed to the education of Pakistani young ladies.

    7. Ms Deena Mistri: Pakistani Parsi – a devoted and committed educationist who contributed to the education of Pakistani young men.

    8. Justice Dorab Patel: Pakistani Parsi – a jurist of international acclaim and a man recognized for his sound judgement and uncompromised integrity.

    9. Raja Tridev Roy: Pakistani Buddhist – originally the Raja of his tribe in Bengal. A devoted Pakistani who migrated from his ancestral Bengal to Pakistan, after the creation of Bangla Desh. He served Pakistan as Minister and Ambassador.

    Dear compatriot Pakistanis, recall the following words of Quaid-e Azam:

    “We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are ALL Pakistanis. They will enjoy the SAME rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.” [Quaid-e Azam M. A. Jinnah, February 1948]

  70. mubarak

    @Mahalingam Khan

    I think it is you my friend who sounds like a child in this debate. Similar to a child that finds faults at his parent for disciplining him if he commits some mischievous deed and continuously disobeys his parents.

    …Such children are sent to boot camp in the US by the way…

  71. Tilsim

    @ Bin Ismail

    Thank you for picking this up further. I have some more names to add that we all need to celebrate:

    1) Deepak Parwani ( fashion designer)

    2) Bapsi Sidhwa (novelist)

    3) Santosh Kumar (actor)

    4) Danish Kaneria (cricketer)

    5) Ardeshir Cowasjee (columnist)

    6) Joseph Cordeiro (first Pakistani Cardinal)

    7) Robin Ghosh (composer)

    8) Shabnam (actress)

    9) Cyril Almeida (journalist)

    10) David Alesworth (sculptor)

    11) Marjorie Husain (art critic)

    12) Esther Rahim (artist)

    13) Anna Molka Ahmed (fine arts)

    14) Louis J Pinto “Gumby” (drummer)

    These names are too few. We need more.

    I would love to add the names of the Ahmedi greats too such as Prof Abdus Salaam (Nobel prize winner for Physics) or Zafarullah Khan (Pakistan Foreign minister, renowned international jurist). I realise that the question of whether an Ahmedi Jamaat person is actually a minority (as per the current law) is a controversial topic. My preference would be to add their names for the purpose of celebrating those Pakistanis who are not Sunnis/Shias, who achieved success and recognition in this country. We could also include minority sects such as Ismaili (Gulgee for example).

    Children across the country should be taught that no matter what your background and sex, you have opportunities and rights as well as obligations to the country. You have people from all walks of life that you can be proud of as a Pakistani.

    Celebrating minorities’ success through the media is a way to make them visible to Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis. We need all communities to feel a part of this nation’s story.

    In due course (if I may plagiarise a little:)), I hope that one’s religion should seize to matter in our personal interactions. It should most definitely seize to matter as citizens of Pakistan (as Jinnah so eloquently put it).

    Please note that celebrating success is only one of the tools necessary to defeat religious discrimination in society and to help develop an overwhelming consensus necessary to repeal discriminatory laws. However this tool is a very important one. I am sure given the diverse audience of this blog, that other great suggestions will be forthcoming too.

  72. Nusrat Pasha

    @ Tilsim (August 17, 2010 at 12:16 am)

    “…..I would love to add the names of the Ahmedi greats too…for the purpose of celebrating those Pakistanis who are not Sunnis/Shias…..”

    In the eyes of the Government of Pakistan, Ahmadis are “not Muslims for the purposes of constitution and law”, not because they say so, but because the Parliament says so. This differentiates them from those Pakistanis who themselves profess not to be Muslim, by choice, a few of whom have been mentioned in the earlier posts.

    In their own eyes, however, Ahmadis are Muslims. Ahmadis know themselves as Muslims and that is what matters to them. The second amendment has zero bearing on their conviction. However, it may be useful to present just a few names of Pakistani Ahmadis – in your good words “for the purpose of celebrating those Pakistanis who are not Sunnis/Shias”. The meritorious services and contributions of these Pakistanis have most ungratefully been forgotten, solely because they were Ahmadis:

    1. Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan: Pakistani Ahmadi – Quaid-e Azam’s most trusted lieutenant and 1st Foreign Minister of Pakistan. Subsequently, rose to occupy the worlds highest diplomatic and judicial positions – President of UN General Assembly and President International Court of Justice.

    2. Prof. Dr. Abdus Salam: Pakistani Ahmadi – Nobel Laureate in Physics.

    3. Lt Gen Akhtar Hussain Malik: Pakistani Ahmadi – Successfully led the Pakistan Army on the Kashmir front during the ’65 war.

    4. Lt Gen Abdul Ali: Pakistani Ahmadi – Successfully defended Pakistan during the ’65 war on the Sialkot sector.

    5. Maj Gen Iftikhar Janjua: Pakistani Ahmadi – Successfully led the Pakistan Army on the Rann Kutch front durind the ’65 war. Led the Pakistan Army on the Kashmir front in ’71 war and was killed in action. He is the ‘only’ general of the Pakistan Army, to die in combat.

    6. M M Ahmad: Pakistani Ahmadi – Financial expert of international fame. Served his country in several capacities. Also served as a Director of the World Bank.

    7. Qazi Muhammad Aslam: Pakistani Ahmadi – Renowned Educationist and teacher.

    8. Ubaidullah Aleem: Pakistani Ahmadi – Renowned Urdu poet.

    On an extremely tragic note, the “greatest unsung hero of Pakistan”, ever, is none other than Quaid-e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah himself, whose vision of a secular Pakistan was systematically and mercilessly sabotaged after his demise – whose vision still awaits fulfillment.

  73. nazir allahwalla

    @junaid
    so you think ahmedis are worth killing? you should be locked up and forgotton about.

  74. nazir allahwalla

    what about me? i do not believe and religion or any god.