Lahore’s shrine bombed – outrageous, barbaric and unacceptable

Raza Rumi

35 dead and 175 injured – the numbers may increase..

As if the recent acts of violence and an atmosphere of fear was not enough, the butchers have attacked Lahore’s oldest and grandest shrine – also known as Data Saheb. Thursday night is the time when thousands visit this shrine to pray and offer their respects to Hazrat Usman Hajwery, a Sufi who has been known as the protector of the city and the generous guide who is believed to have blessed countless generations.

This is a barbaric attack and should serve as a wake up call. Data Saheb’s shrine is not just another crowded place – it represents a millenia of tolerant Sufi Islam which is directly under attack by the puritans.Last year, there were threats and the government had closed the place for a day or two. This time the worst of nightmares has come true.

How long will we be mere spectators and see our great city blown to bits – culturally and physically. This is time for hard, concrete action and a major crackdown on all terrorist outfits that are operating in the country especially the Punjab wit impunity.

How long shall we remain in a state of denial – as if there is no problem within Pakistan and all acts of terror are perpeterated by the Indians, Jews and the Americans.

Here’s the latest report:

LAHORE: At least 18 people were killed when three suicide blasts struck Data Darbar in Lahore on Thursday.

According to police officials, the death toll was still unconfirmed, however, authorities stated that more than 100 people were injured.

The Data Darbar shrine is situated in the center of the city and according to police reports, a large number of people were present in the vicinity during the blasts.

Most of the injured were shifted to Mayo Hospital, where an emergency has been declared. Local televisions reported that some of the victims had also been taken to Services Hospital and Mehran Hospital.

Thursday is a popular day at the shrine where crowds gather at night. Police officials said that the large number of people could have been the reason why the bombers managed to get through, despite the heightened security.

131 Comments

Filed under Lahore, Pakistan, Religion, Sufism, Taliban, Terrorism

131 responses to “Lahore’s shrine bombed – outrageous, barbaric and unacceptable

  1. Farhat

    Horrible and sad event! Time to wake up Pakistan!

  2. Raza

    This is shocking beyond belief. I really do not know where are we heading and am amazed that no matter what evidence is brought in front of our eyes we are unable to believe it and choose to remain in a perpetual state of denial

  3. Quantum_Singularity

    “Lahore’s shrine bombed – outrageous, barbaric and unacceptable”

    And par for the course these days.

  4. Tilsim

    Inna lillahi wa inna alehi rajaoon. Yet, we still deny the evil that is within and amongst us. Our thoughts are with those who died and their loved ones.

  5. An Ahmadi Muslim

    My deepest condolences to the victims and their families!

    The so-called ‘muslim’ thekedars go for more human sacrifice to appease their blood thirsty god. Allah kee Qasam, their god is not Allah!

    The ‘moderate’ majority backs the Abu Lahabs and Abu Jahals. Murder is done under their noses in the name of the rahmat-ullil-alaleem, Hazrat Mohammad Mustafa SAW. Is their silent support, how they do tahaffuz of the khatam-un-nabuwat? Pathetic! The murderers and their mentorsare no different than the cartoon drawers. Why no boycott of these enemies of Rasool Allah SAW and Allah SWT?

    Think. If you can ..

  6. Lubna

    Terrorist Attacks on Data Darbar- We have hit the lowest of lows. This shrine is a symbol of peace, and a sanctury of comman man; to attack it, is to slap the entire nation.

  7. Nostalgic

    “to attack it, is to slap the entire nation.”

    Unfortunately, this nation will simply turn the other cheek… and to stretch the analogy further, it will be discovered that a “foreign hand” delivered the slap…

  8. An Ahmadi Muslim

    Once again, my condolences to the victims families.
    May Allah forgive their shortcoming and shower them with His blessing. May the families find the patience and courage to bear their loss. May Allah be with them. Ameen.

    Pakistani, please wake up and realize the beast that has been created. You have to get out of denial to start to tackle the real dajjal that has feigned within you as the savior of Islam! The enemy is within plain sight. Open your eyes, before the beast gets to you!

  9. Sahal

    RIP, to all the people. May Allah forgive them of their sins and help their families through this difficult time.

    These people were against Pakistan then and they are against us now. We need to take them out, we have to take these people out of the equation. We know who they are.

  10. Tilsim

    There we go Nabil Gabol, PPP on GEO TV:

    Ghair mulki (foreigners) are involved. Dushman mulk shamil hai (i.e India).

  11. Samiullah khan

    Assalam o alikum,
    I don’t know where the hell are those officials who use to say, ‘All is Well’.Its time to rise not only against terrorism but against government as well.They r doing nothing, it means that they are with them.

  12. Tilsim

    Shame on our leaders. This will never end until Pakistan is truly under control of Al Qaeda and it’s accomplices.

  13. Bint e Mahmood

    Another sad sad night…
    Our deepest sympathies and condolences go out to those who have lost loved ones today. Nothing seems to be sacred anymore, mosques, shrines, hospitals. Sadly when a nation lets itself slip into the evil claws of the mullah, the result is widespread hatred, intolerance and discrimination and then another incident like this….the horrendous killing of scores of people.
    Unless and until we pull our country out of the hands of the hate preaching mullahs, not a single one of us is safe.
    Allah reham kare humaray mulk par.

  14. S.A

    Terrorist attacks at Data Darbar are very sad and appalling! One wonders where our country is heading to. Barbarism and violence seem to have become a norm in our society. Its amazing how terrorists are able to get past the security personnel! The government needs to take strict measures against terrorist outfits operating in the country and all political parties who are supporting them. Its time that the government also paid attention to security measures. Our police force, elite force, whatever you call it, are not equipped or trained enough to stop acts of terrorism..The present government has truly failed! Pakistan khappay is the slogan for PPP and they have truly succeeded in distressing the citizens of Pakistan. There is no day in Pakistan that ends on a happy note. But our leaders still believe that all is well…

  15. Jamal

    Allah’s lanat on teorroist supporters Sharif brothers…

  16. Amaar

    An extremely sad event and an outrageous attack.

  17. Junaid

    People responsible for this atrocity are

    1. Foreign hand
    2. Internal hand
    3. Invisible hand
    4. Visible hand
    5. Jewish hand
    6. Hindu hand
    7. US hand
    8. All hands except our own hand.

    Its time Pak army starts eliminating all terrorists whether they are anti-Pak or anti-India

  18. banjara286

    i am amazed that this attack was carried out. to the best of my knowledge data arabar is not an ahmadi shrine.

  19. @Nostalgic

    “to attack it, is to slap the entire nation.”

    Unfortunately, this nation will simply turn the other cheek… and to stretch the analogy further, it will be discovered that a “foreign hand” delivered the slap…

    A friend of mine sent me this; it seems to speak the words that anguish kept choked within:

    lab agar nahii.n hilte haath jaag uTh’te hai.n
    haath jaag uTh’te hai.n raah kaa nishaan ban kar
    nuur kii zubaa.N ban kar
    haath bol uThate hai.n subah kii azaa.N ban kar

  20. shiv

    My condolences to the fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters of the bereaved.

    On certain Indian sites that I visit, there is jubilation. The attacks on this mosque (by sipah e saheba?) and the earlier bestiality against Ahmedis are seen as examples of how Pakistan purified itself of kafirs and how these acts are an example of further purification of a state that is meant to be “Paki” i.e pure.

    The latest justification for jubilation and celebration of murder by Indians is the public disowning by many Pakistanis of the origin of the Mumbai attacks.

    The “Islam” explanation comes easy to Indians. After all, Pakistan was created on the basis of the two nation theory and named itself “Paki-stan” to boot. There should now be no regret among Pakistanis as the pure try to purify themselves further.

    Of course India has seen similar brutality by Indians in the last couple of days, specifically by Naxalites. After Indians stop celebrating if one were to ask why Naxals are brutal in India I am sure the more thoughtful Indians would be able to point out that it is not just the ideology (communism) but the poverty, desolation and desperation of the naxalites that makes them brutal.

    Similarly these murders are not merely Islamist ideology. Even the most hated (by Indians) Pakistani mullah – even Zaid Hamid would be hard put to find an Islamic explanation for these Lahore murders given their facile ability to find justification for violence in India.

    If it is not ideology what is it? To me there is now a degree of desperation among a huge mass of Pakistanis – desperation at being left out somewhat similar to Naxal desperation in India.

    The focus will have to be on helping that segment of Pakistan which I believe constitutes anywhere between 80 and 110 million Pakistanis. In Indian terms that is a miniscule number – but there can be no hiding behind Indian numbers. Pakistan exists. Indian numbers and Indian problems must not be used to hide the reality and the responsibilities of existing as a separate, independent state.

  21. Anonymous

    @An Ahmadi Muslim:

    This is in response to your first comment on this post. I feel terrible about the current Lahore blast and the massacre that happened at the Ahamadi mosque. I am deeply sorry for all the innocent lives that have been lost. I totally accept that unless Pakistani’s understand that this is not part of some worldwide conspiracy to deprive them of there beloved “jewels” (nuclear weapons), no one can save them.

    Having said that, I would like to focus on a particular line in your comment. You said, “Pathetic! The murderers and their mentors are no different than the cartoon drawers.”. Really !!! You think that blowing up a mosque and killing 40 civilians is the same as drawing some stupid cartoon. C’mon man. You can’t be serious. Cartoons, even if they are “offensive”, don’t kill people. But, blowing up a mosque or shooting at random people does. I am not sure if this is just you or if this is how Muslims in general think about these issues. If that’s the case, you guyz have to really reconsider your logic.

    –Concerned neighbour

  22. emrun

    @Junaid,

    Not to mention”Attacker cannot be a muslim as no muslim can do this” – a favourite quote of Pak leaders.

  23. bciv

    I am not sure if this is just you or if this is how Muslims in general think about these issues. If that’s the case, you guyz have to really reconsider your logic.

    and you need to relearn your Probability & Statistics… and simple arithmetic too.

  24. Chote Miyan

    Shiv,
    This may not be the right time for such an analysis. People are in mourning.

  25. Majumdar

    Heartfelt condolences to the bereaved. This will break the heart of many Indians too- I have often read pieces by Punjabis speaking reverentially about Data Durbar sahib.

    Regards

  26. shiv

    @ Chote Miyan
    This may not be the right time for such an analysis. People are in mourning.

    Chote Miyan, The irony of life is that it would be sheer hypocrisy to say that everyone is mourning. Certainly the perpetrators are not mourning and the handlers of the suicide bombers will be jubilantly talking about the paradise attained by the killers. Those people are walking free right now.

    I do not want to hurt sentiment and don’t want to go too far, but at a time of mourning one needs to see who is not mourning to understand the multiplicity of reasons why such events occur.

    If you read through PTH the mourning about the anti-Ahmedi attacks has not ended. And now this. Someone gains, or feels he gains from all this. Someone sits back and watches as these events unfold. Someone must keep his eyes dry and see who is doing/saying what. Spontaneous reactions to such events are an important meter of the society that the reactions come from.

  27. Anonymous

    @bciv:

    “and you need to relearn your Probability & Statistics… and simple arithmetic too.”

    What does it supposed to mean ? My comment had a genuine question. Killing someone is NOT equal to drawing a stupid, even “offensive” cartoon. Such a view point dangerously oversimplifies outrageous crimes or exaggerates stupid issues. And, I accepted that I don’t know if this is just one person’s view or the general view of the entire community (I don’t mind if you replace “Muslims” with “Hindus” or “Christians” or any other religious community. Since this topic was about Muslims, I referred to Muslims in my comment). I still don’t understand what statistics and arithmetic has to do with it.

  28. YLH

    I can believe Shiv mian who I thought was a better human being than Sadhna gupta types is gloating already… albeit with an “analytical” cap.

  29. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    I am sure many Indians will be heartbroken. I have read many newspaper articles from Punjabis speaking reverentially about Hazrat Data Durbar sahib.

    Regards

  30. Saddened

    What a sad state of affairs. We need a secular revolution.

  31. Chote Miyan

    ylh,
    I don’t think Shiv is “gloating.” There is hardly any reason to conclude that. He seems to be more angry than smug. He just choose the wrong time to air an honest viewpoint. That’s all.

  32. Bin Ismail

    Those who named Pakistan “napakistan” and “paleedistan” are trying relentlessly to vindicate their christening act.

  33. Pagan

    Saddened,
    “We need a secular revolution”

    Please elaborate.

  34. Pagan

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkiMxbHNH0BqgpWA2ZG6VD6wVTmAD9GMOTPO2

    “America is killing Muslims in Afghanistan and in our tribal areas, and militants are attacking Pakistan to express anger against the government for supporting America,” said Zahid Umar, 25, who frequently visits the shrine.

    “I think the Ahmadis were behind the attack” on the Sufi shrine, said Lahore resident Mohammad Amir, accusing the minority sect of seeking revenge. He offered no evidence to back up his claim.

    All I can say is WTF.

  35. Farhana Pasha

    Condolences to all those who lost their dear ones in the previous night attack and I wonder who is next in their list of kafirs. If the people of Pakistan do not not speak up now, may be there wont be anyone left to speak up.

    I am so sick of this word ‘muzamat’. Our leaders sitting in the comforts of their palaces just make calls to these channels and say this word ‘muzamat’. May be they dont even bother to call. May be they have have given standard instructions to our Pakistani channels to run the muzamat message after every blast.

  36. Very sad.

    The events of last few years in both India and Pakistan have clearly proved that world faces threat from two sources:-


    1) Right-wing religious extremism of ALL religions.

    2) Corporates out to destroy poor people and environment in their quest for more and more consumption of resources. Right wing economics.

    Fight the Right.

  37. I guess they are trying to create their interpretation of the land of the Pure.

  38. Ammar

    I would like to ask those who have implied that this war is imposed upon us and we are fighting an American war, the ones who lost their lives yesterday were they not citizens of Pakistan? Were they any less human? The apologists raise so many hue and cries on drone attacks which btw have killed numerous militants but they are muted when our own citizens die. It is time that we recognize this war as a battle of our survival and unite against religious extremism

  39. D_a_n

    @shiv

    I knew you were an ill man but didn’t know that you were ill bred as well…
    Your Cheshire cat grin even while theblood dries in Lahore is testament to that…you claim to be offering analysis but your delight SERPS through every rancid word that is written…

    It could have been my son or my brother there and you would crowed the same…turns my stomach just thinking about it…

    Tell me old man…. Do you ejaculate in an orgasmic delight everytime something like this happens??
    This must be what qualifies as porn to you huh…

    YLH is right that you have more in common with kashifiat types than with anyone else…

    You are a bore and totally tactless with wit about as sharp as a bronze era knife found stuck up a mammoths ass…

    Please be gone!!! For you are not worthy of the anal cavity in which you reside…

  40. D_a_n

    SERPS=seeps

  41. karun1

    when and how will all this stop?

    who needs to admit that there is a problem and needs to be dealt with? who? PM/President/Army-Chief

    Wats the limit to patience and importantly whose patience?

  42. Raza

    Understand your enemy, for they are amongst you. They are the Wahhabi, the Salafist and the Takfiri.

    Unless you understand this you will continue to be slaughtered.

  43. shiv

    No please. I apologise for the hurt caused. I just have some hard things to say. Sorry.

  44. Tilsim

    @ Shiv

    Thanks for clarification. Hard truths are ok but this is not a poor/rich issue. That’s a contributing factor only. The main issue is a movement of rich and poor who want to seize power violently or surreptitiously in the name of their version of Islam. They believe they have divine sanction and they are absolutely certain. All real or potential sources of opposition must be eliminated and the religion purified. As Raza said these include members of Salafi/ Wahabi and Takfiris. They get cover and intelligence from Deobandis. Until Pakistanis and others understand what these words mean, they will not be able to identify the enemy.

  45. Girish

    First, sympathies with everybody who is directly affected by it and others who are mourning.

    Second, isn’t it time to demand a thorough investigation into this incident, with identification of the groups behind this, their arrest and trial? There have been a large number of incidents in the last couple of years – has anybody ever been arrested in connection with any of them? Other than vague references to the TTP, has there been any attempt to find who are the people in that organization? Has there been adequate pressure on the leadership – civilian and military – from the media and civil society on this matter?

    What has happened has happened. If the focus is forward looking, the best way to prevent or at least reduce such incidents in the future is to go after those who were behind this, so that at least they can’t plan another attack.

  46. PMA

    Shiva: I swear if I ever see you in person I will slap your EDITED face EDITED whoever you are.

  47. Sammy the Walrus

    People of India and Pakistan have become accustomed to violence. As usual, there will be the ritualistic hue and cry, finger pointing and then within a week all comes back to normal. Who are we making fool of? We all know what’s going to happen next! Nothing, Nada, Sifar!
    Since nothing has been done for numerous other cases of terror over the last few decades, nothing will be done for this also. Reams of paper wasted on this tragedy and others is serve little more than toilet paper for the people sitting and making grand strategies.

  48. D_a_n

    @PM Sb

    don’t debase yourself by talking to this 3rd man called shiv who is not even fit to wash our cars…
    His disguting hate for us Pakistanis the result of being molested by a Pakistani male house keeper when he was a wee lad….
    That would explain him and the other little shivs fantasizing about putting ‘porkistanis’ in their place all day…

    @shiv…

    You have not caused hurt. Only offense of the most vile kind. Repeatedly. Why don’t people like you just fuck off to chowk is a mystery to me. This obviously ain’t your type of show. Yet you remain. Refusing to modulate your views and in our face. Dheet is the word for it.

    Your hate is banal. But unfortunately your obvious ill breeding is not and that is probably the only thing I cannot overlook in a man. That and cowardice. You seem to be in good stock of both. What with you being a massive war monger and talking of war this and war that but never having picked up a rifle and manned a post.
    My family’s been doing that for 4 generations from Burma-north Africa to chamb to the skies over your home….
    I’ve seen plenty of bathroom soldier boys like you who have a strange blood lust for war ad a result of severe sense of inadequacy.. Yes you are one of those. Pissants is what the yanks call people like you…
    If you were an American you’d probably have been a draft dodger. That’s what I think of you you old fart.

    My familys batman of 20 years had more grace and breeding in his left nut that you have been able to muster in your pathetic insignificant life…
    That’s why other losers falatiating you on Bharat rakshak feels so good doesn’t it?

    Or maybe it is the ideological blow jobs you get from kashifiat and his rabble! Is that what brings you here?
    Again.. Can’t you do that privately?

    You are not welcome. Period. Have the decency to leave for heavens sake.

    Why not go and work on the 2nd edition of ‘the book’? I’ve heard there’s s toilet paper shortageand should thus fly off the shelves.

    Hard things to say my ASS! Shove some of them up your back side sir. Up your backside!

  49. D_a_n

    3rd man = 3rd rate man

    come to think of it. 3rd man sounds like a good position for this man. Far away.

  50. Bin Ismail

    The last resting place of a sufi saint who preached nothing but love and peace, has today become the target hatred and violence. A man of God who has inspired millions in the subcontinent by his love for God and his love for humanity, is today the target himself. Ali Hajweri, known commonly as Data Ganjbakhsh was able to command reverence and inspire love in the hearts of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, but his message of harmony could not touch the impermeable stones that throb inside the bosoms of beasts.

  51. Bin Ismail

    Erratum:
    …has today become the target [of] hatred…

  52. Pingback: Bomb Blast in Crowded Dada Darbar (Shrine), Lahore - Page 18 - Pakistan Defence Forum

  53. Khullat

    The imbecile among us, will continue to contend that there is a foreign hand. They know well that the killers were not foreign and that those killed were Pakistanis. They know, but they don’t have the courage to acknowledge what they know.

    May God save Pakistan.

  54. androidguy

    D_a_n, what gives? After that post of yours, and you still claim others as ill-bred?

  55. P. Vengaayam

    I see a lot of bitching and moaning about people speaking hard truths about how truly nasty place our region is, violent and brutal — Indian maoist terrorist attacks are of the same senseless violence that Pakistan has seen today, and these are being caused by people who have nothing left to lose. That is the reality.

    But shooting the messenger and trying to drive someone out for speaking their mind is an act of intellectual cowardice. Ignore what you do not like, but killing the messenger does not kill the message/truth about the ground situation. This is of utmost importance in trying to get a grip of real-world issues.

    After most terrorist attacks on Indian citizens, usually created by Pakistani terrorist groups, some Pakistanis and some Indians claim that “this is all retribution for some past wrongs committed by Hindus on Muslims” (Gujarat riots is a favourite for this crowd) or some such odious nonsense. That says more about the people making such insenstive comments — it does not hurt the dead or the grieving living who carry the burden of memories.

  56. Ibn-e-Maryam

    I condemn this barbaric act. Please Pakistan wake up and end this religious intolerance. May Allah give strength to families of all martyrs of this tragic incident

  57. D_a_n

    @ androidguy….
    Out of my face…
    You wouldn’t know what good breeding is if it was fed to you as a sepositrey…

    P. Vengy-whateverum

    no one is shooting any messenger here. Shiv’s only message is his own idiocy and blind hate.

    Go back to chowk son for you apparantely bought that ode to toilet paper that shiv wrote.
    Stuff it fan boy!

  58. kishore

    Three things come to my mind..sympathy, sympathy and sympathy.

  59. P. Vengaayam

    D_a_n, does daddy know you are not in school today? tsk tsk.

  60. androidguy

    Diego Maradona behaved better when he was high on cocaine than Danny boy does now with whatever he is high on!!

  61. D_a_n

    Matter of fact he does……
    Oh the wit! How I bleed!

  62. pHaze

    Its indeed bad that such events are becoming commonplace. Pakistan’s polititians tactically support such facist groups to intimidate minority groups and appease the larger section of society. Though the obvious conclusion here is that it was caused by fanatical islamist groups, I would still like to look at what role Islam’s political teachings have to play in this. (I wont shy away from saying I’m against Islam). If indeed (I may be wrong, so..) Islam’s ‘package’ to infidels and kaffirs is death, I wouldnt be surprised if a large section of muslims in pakistan dont despise such killings and somehow see it as OK!.

  63. @D_a_n

    You must know that the vast majority of normal people in the world, whether they are Indian or any other nationality whatsoever, feel nothing but pain and sorrow at the ghastly tragedy that has taken place. This is most important for you to know. What a handful of cynical mischief makers think, write or do should not matter to you, or to any other Pakistani friend of ours.

    Please let us mourn the dead and solace the injured with whatever dignity and self-respect that we can summon, and not be distracted. This is my earnest suggestion to you, as a lover of humanity irrespective of the state labels that humans carry about with them. The dead demand this of us: let us mourn them now.

  64. shiv

    @ Tilsim
    this is not a poor/rich issue.

    I will let this be for now when tempers are high. I have something to say about this.

  65. @Shiv

    Dear Shiv,

    I regret very much that you didn’t stop to pick your words more carefully, because your anger and indignation at this tragedy betrayed you into using expressions and phrases which were unsuitable.

    It is my firm belief that you meant nothing insulting to the dead. I am sure that you had not intended to convey any element of ‘gloating’ in your post. Unfortunately, the way it came out, on top of having positioned yourself as relentlessly frank, it seems to have made a very poor impression on otherwise calm people.

    Please, for your own considerable reputation, display the emotion and compassion which is appropriate for this moment. There will be time later when everybody’s pain dies down, as it must, when we can return to rational discussion. This is simply not the time. It is not a moment for detached analysis, it is a moment for grief and mourning, even if for a few fleeting moments.

    I am confident that an expression of your human feelings at this terrible tragedy will be taken well. Do not hesitate to do what is natural and good. Please, Shiv.

  66. ved

    Heart full condolence to people who died on this cowardly and ghastly attack.
    I sincerely hope that at least now India and Pakistan should woke up to realty and make friendship with one another and turn inward to tackle raging menace i.e. Naxalism in India and Extremism in Pakistan instead behaving like a ostrich.

  67. Kaalket

    Ved ,India is a country of Infidels,so peace cannot be established there. Its in the nature of the Kuffar to argue , be noisy and violent . But Pakistan has concrete , historical example to follow for establishing peaceful society. Question is why are they failing. Seems they fail to follow the teachings literally. Jinnah and Iqbal must be disappointed to see their experiment failling so soon.

  68. ved

    Dear Kaalket
    Every country and particularly those which swear with democratic norms should allow all the persons to follow their choice of religion or may become non believer too. There is no harm in that. Many European countries have totally distanced themselves from religion and still are peaceful . So being infidels does not mean that he should be totally obliterated, If there is God then He will look in to his matter. But one thing is sure that we are made to bleed by those who swear in the name of God, not by Infidels.

  69. S.A

    @Kaalket
    Yours is exactly the kind of language Mullahs use to inflame passions. Let me be clear: Islam has no enemies except self-appointed guardians of faith – from both among Muslims and from among Non-Muslims.

  70. Hayyer

    Kaalket:

    One up for the Kuffar, if that is how they really feel. I saw a picture of some bearded fellows celebrating the blasts at the shrine. You would easily fit in with that lot.
    Keep it up; no doubt someone will likewise rub your face in it should such a thing ever happen to you.

  71. PMA

    Vajra (July 2, 2010 at 10:32 pm):

    Hazrat Ali Hajveri, the Sufi Scholar who one thousand years ago came to Lahore from Hajver, Ghazni is a patron saint of Lahore. He is perhaps the first Muslim who preached Islam in Lahore and its surrounding areas. Millions of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and naturally Muslims hold him in great reverence. Wahhabi sect of Islam and many other reformers oppose not the Saints but the ‘Shrine Culture’ that over the centuries have developed around shrines such as this. But that is no reason to blow up places like this. In a free and just society everyone must be free to worship the way he or she sees fit. Unfortunately some have chosen to blow up shrines and places of worship of others. We must condemn that. But some commenters from your country here at PTH use sad incidents like this to malign Pakistan and Islam. It is a deliberate act to hurt others. These Indians are just as disgusting and sub-human creatures as those who bomb and kill innocent humans.

  72. DN

    No denying the gravity of the situation. Even sadder is the attitude of those around to whom such situations r an everyday event. But is ‘crackdown’ the solution? Is operation THE solution to everything? ؛

  73. D_a_n

    @androidguy

    You are nothing but shiv’s flotsam and jetsom…

    And hence not in my league…

    Can’t talk anymore…

  74. Chote Miyan

    Dan,
    Shiv has already apologized. What do you expect him to do? Hang himself or what?

  75. Moosa

    @ PMA

    “These Indians are just as disgusting and sub-human creatures as those who bomb and kill innocent humans.”

    Sorry, bro, i can’t agree with you there. I think killing innocent humans is the worst crime.

  76. Parvez

    Having done the ritual condemnation of Darbar suicide attack by all and sundry, let’s look at ground reality:
    a. It is a human drone attack where controller is hidden, many steps removed from attacker.
    b. There may be claims of responsibility but one should not attach any significance to such claims without solid links.
    c. The fact that Rehman Malik started blame game so quickly points to political motives of putting PMLN on defensive and asking army to take action in South Punjab knowing full well that they don’t have spare capacity for any such action.
    d. Notice the similarity to attacks in Iraq and now in Pakistan. Purpose of those attacks in Iraq was to split Iraqi society into sectarian groups. A similar process is being applied to Pakistan. The divide and rule method as a solution to AfPak problem is well documented in writings of NATO and Indian think tanks.
    e. The question is to who is the local proxy with organization, skills and money.

  77. D_a_n

    @ chote miyan..

    ‘Dan,
    Shiv has already apologized. What do you expect him to do? Hang himself or what?’

    now THERE’s a thought…!!!!

  78. D_a_n

    @ Vajra…

    Sir, your good wishes and counsel are always welcome when tempers are high…
    I have no doubt that good, decent and humane people in India would be as repulsed as we are. I have seen too much of this world and known too many people not to know that….
    for what it’s worth they have my personal gratitude.

    You are an ornament to your country Sir. May she have many sons like you.

  79. @PMA

    What words can I use that are adequate?

  80. Tilsim

    Sufi message to all: don’t forget EQ; more important than IQ

    Bulleh Shah, Sufi poet (1680-1758):

    You have learnt so much
    And read a thousand books.
    Have you ever read your Self?
    You have gone to mosque and temple.
    Have you ever visited your soul?
    You are busy fighting Satan.
    Have you ever fought your
    Ill intentions?
    You have reached into the skies,
    But you have failed to reach
    What’s in your heart!

  81. sober

    First heartfelt condolences for this tragic loss of human life.On the discussion going on here.all i can say is,so much hatred in our hearts,is it any wonder that people can get brainwashed enough to become suicide bombers and kill innocent human beings.If at all there has to be a lesson to be learnt,the lesson is on humanity.Of which there is a serious dearth in our part of the world divided by religion and sects.I wish all the religious differences disappear when we wake up tommorrow.If there is a daata saheb somewhere surely this miracle can and will happen.

  82. Tilsim

    And here is Bulleh again..

    Remove duality and do away with all disputes;
    The Hindus and Muslims are not other than He.
    Deem everyone virtuous, there are no thieves.
    For, within every body He himself resides.
    How the Trickster has put on a mask!

  83. Girish

    Vajra:

    The problem is that people assume motives behind a commentator’s words. ‘He is saying X, but it must be because he believes Y’. Or that ‘A is from country B, so he must be an enemy of everybody from country C’ and so on. If the words are read without going into unobservable factors supposedly in the background, it would spare a lot of angst. I have personally been subjected to that, including by you. And I don’t spare myself from this criticism either.

    That said, I agree with you that there is a time and place for discussions. This is neither the time nor the place for anything but expressions of concern and sympathy. It is better to stay silent if one has neither of these to express.

  84. Tilsim

    Maya Angelou: A brave and Startling Truth

    We, this people, on a small and lonely planet
    Traveling through casual space
    Past aloof stars, across the way of indifferent suns
    To a destination where all signs tell us
    It is possible and imperative that we learn
    A brave and startling truth

    And when we come to it
    To the day of peacemaking
    When we release our fingers
    From fists of hostility
    And allow the pure air to cool our palms

    When we come to it
    When the curtain falls on the minstrel show of hate
    And faces sooted with scorn and scrubbed clean
    When battlefields and coliseum
    No longer rake our unique and particular sons and daughters
    Up with the bruised and bloody grass
    To lie in identical plots in foreign soil

    When the rapacious storming of the churches
    The screaming racket in the temples have ceased
    When the pennants are waving gaily
    When the banners of the world tremble
    Stoutly in the good, clean breeze

    When we come to it
    When we let the rifles fall from our shoulders
    And children dress their dolls in flags of truce
    When land mines of death have been removed
    And the aged can walk into evenings of peace
    When religious ritual is not perfumed
    By the incense of burning flesh
    And childhood dreams are not kicked awake
    By nightmares of abuse

    When we come to it
    Then we will confess that not the Pyramids
    With their stones set in mysterious perfection
    Nor the Gardens of Babylon
    Hanging as eternal beauty
    In our collective memory
    Not the Grand Canyon
    Kindled into delicious color
    By Western sunsets

    Nor the Danube, flowing its blue soul into Europe
    Not the sacred peak of Mount Fuji
    Stretching to the Rising Sun
    Neither Father Amazon nor Mother Mississippi who, without favor,
    Nurture all creatures in the depths and on the shores
    These are not the only wonders of the world

    When we come to it
    We, this people, on this minuscule and kithless globe
    Who reach daily for the bomb, the blade and the dagger
    Yet who petition in the dark for tokens of peace
    We, this people on this mote of matter
    In whose mouths abide cankerous words
    Which challenge our very existence
    Yet out of those same mouths
    Come songs of such exquisite sweetness
    That the heart falters in its labor
    And the body is quieted into awe

    We, this people, on this small and drifting planet
    Whose hands can strike with such abandon
    That in a twinkling, life is sapped from the living
    Yet those same hands can touch with such healing, irresistible tenderness
    That the haughty neck is happy to bow
    And the proud back is glad to bend
    Out of such chaos, of such contradiction
    We learn that we are neither devils nor divines

    When we come to it
    We, this people, on this wayward, floating body
    Created on this earth, of this earth
    Have the power to fashion for this earth
    A climate where every man and every woman
    Can live freely without sanctimonious piety
    Without crippling fear

    When we come to it
    We must confess that we are the possible
    We are the miraculous, the true wonder of this world
    That is when, and only when
    We come to it.

  85. Kaalket

    Tilsim,
    Wakat of Bulleh Shah is gone now. He lost long time ago when M.A Jinnah and Ikbal captured the imagination.

    RaateiN jaageiN kareiN ibadat
    RaateiN jagan kutte
    TaithooN utte

    (kutte = dogs)

    BhoonkooN band mol na hunde
    Ja rooRi te sutte
    TaithooN utte

    Khasam apne da dar na chad de
    BhaNweiN wajaN jutte
    TaithooN utte

    Bhulle Shah koi rakht wahaaj le
    nahiN te bazi le gae kutte
    TaithooN utte

    Kutte won and Bullah lost.

  86. It is close enough, Kaalket, you have won, and Tilsim lost.

    Now leave it. If you have little to do, find somewhere else to do it. Leave people to mourn, and their friends to condole them, and try to keep some semblance of humanity. We can enjoy your mental calisthenics some other time; there will be more appropriate occasions. Do not grind in PMA’s words any further with these interventions.

  87. I can’t believe that Data Darbar was attacked. Things in Pakistan are getting worse and worse every day. My condolences to everyone who lost someone in this attack. I pray to whatever gods there are that things get better soon.

  88. shiv

    @ Parvez
    d. Notice the similarity to attacks in Iraq and now in Pakistan. Purpose of those attacks in Iraq was to split Iraqi society into sectarian groups. A similar process is being applied to Pakistan. The divide and rule method as a solution to AfPak problem is well documented in writings of NATO and Indian think tanks.

    Parvez – I thought of an Iraq parallel for a different reason and my viewpoint about the motives of the US and India are different from yours. My view basically attributes a much more benign role for both India and the US, but the overall conclusions are more sobering and far more serious for Pakistan.

    Will say more when I have managed to organize my thoughts.

  89. An Ahmadi Muslim

    Erratum:

    The murderers and their mentors are worse than the cartoon drawers.

  90. Parvez

    Shiv,
    How can you have conclusion even before organizing your thoughts?

  91. shiv

    @ Parvez
    How can you have conclusion even before organizing your thoughts?

    No – I need to organize my thoughts in order to be able to write with clarity and not cause the anger and denial that some things inevitably cause when I say them. That is what requires organization.

    There are a lot of “sobering” thoughts that even some of the so called liberals on here find it difficult to swallow. Some of these thoughts are Pakistani holy cows that must not be slaughtered. Any danger to these holy cows is confronted with anger and denial. There are examples on this page which I can point out – which will cause only anger and if nothing else I am an expert at causing aggravation by pointing out uncomfortable possibilities.

    There are some thoughts that Pakistanis might have privately but cannot express openly, and some probably don’t even have such thought. I am not constrained by such limitations, but I am constrained by the fact that many will cause extreme anger and denial even among primarily liberal thinking people unless I express them just right.

  92. Parvez

    Shiv,
    Take your time, you won’t anger me. I look at things in context of group dynamics, cause effect and things like cost benefit.

  93. D_a_n

    @ shiv

    the fact that you have the utter gall to produce the following:

    ‘I am not constrained by such limitations’

    is a shocker coming even from you!!

    Yes, I am aware that you are not constrained by decency and rational thought. Your life long hatred towards everything Pakistani frees you from such ‘limitations’….
    Limitations that other, better men than you have.

    Your comprehension skills are extraordinarily weak. You have been an affliction on this forum long enough to know that any percieved holy cows are discusses thread bare.
    But to aknowledge anything positive about us ‘porkistanis’ (isnt that what you and your serfs on bharat rakshak call us?) would be a negation of your own world view and at your possible age a negation of the poison that you have probably fed those around you so expecting you to have the courage to break free of these ‘limitations’ is a bit much.

    Especially from an NDA exam fail/ pseudo warrior like you.

    The biggest ‘limitation’ to any honest discourse from your side on this forum is that ode to toilet paper that you wrote and which defines your life.

    As we used to say in the academy; you are simply ‘piss pathetic’

  94. Pagan

    Just saying, people who want Shiv to fuck off are the ones repeatedly replying to him.

    Shiv, you can cause much takleef to such people by not responding to them.

  95. shiv

    What is actually going to happen (IMO) is that these attacks are going to be blamed on bigoted errant mullahs. That may not be wrong, but it does not tell the whole story.

    There is the other little issue of where and how one can get an endless supply of suicide bombers. The situation in Pakistan seems to have parallels with Palestine and Iraq in that there are a sufficient number of psychologically traumatised children, many of whose parents are also traumatised.

    Now how did Pakistan of nuclear technology, great motorways, leader of the Islamic world get all these traumatised people who are now willing suicide bombers? In my view this transformation has hardly been sudden.

    What I rarely see mentioned in Pakistan origin literature is that Pakistan has not stood by and watched with mute horror as Muslims are allegedly slaughtered and suppressed in India, Palestine, Chechnya and all sorts of other places. There has been an active encouragement of fund collection and infrastructure within Pakistan to fund, train and arm people to go out and kill people outside Pakistan. No Pakistani source has easily acknowledged a Pakistani role in murders and killings in India. Many of these “trained in Pakistan” murderers were fedayeen – suicidal terrorists who were mostly slaughtered in large numbers in India sometimes before and sometimes after committing their heinous acts.

    The ideology and infrastructure for all this has existed in Pakistan for decades and no Pakistani has ever called these things into question as long as Pakistanis were not getting killed in Pakistan. Every Pakistani killed outside Pakistan was the internal problem of an anti-Muslim society outside Pakistan – which is primarily India.
    So what has changed now? The ideology and infrastructure of takfir is healthy in
    Pakistan, but there is increasing disenchantment among Pakistanis. An increasing population, increasing poverty, and increasing percentage of people for whom Pakistan does not really give a damn and whose presence in Pakistan has been denied for decades. Go back a decade or so in history and you find Paistanis confident about their own achievements, but you can find UN and other studies pointing out Pakistan’s social problems. These have rarely been acknowledged, and mostly been brushed aside by pointing at India and saying “South Asia has all these problems and India is the boss there. Look at India”

    The army and the political leadership have failed Pakistan and to me the way forward seems bleak. Blaming all this on mullahs will get nothing. The mullahs have the support of the so called “politcians” of Pakistan – who are just minor sultans and they have never seen or acknowledged the level to which the life of the ordinary Pakistani has descended. I have some figures to support this but will post them later – no time now.

    If there are any rays of hope that I can see I will put them down later. I am unable to spot anything easy right now.

  96. D_a_n

    @ shiv…

    ‘increasing percentage of people for whom Pakistan does not really give a damn and whose presence in Pakistan has been denied for decades.’

    bloody hateful liar!! just where is the evidence of this denial is never mentioned….
    can this pathetic man EVER stop with the lies?

    @ Pagan…

    when officers are speaking, laskars are supposed to STFU. Thankyou!

  97. Pagan

    @D_a_n

    Yeah..so why are you posting your crap? STFU.

  98. Parvez

    Shiv,
    Overall I don’t have any problem with what you say.
    You put everything on Takfiri ideology, however, this group is very small. This group will be eliminated soon. Things are going to change because people demand that the imbalance in income distribution, educational and job opportunities be removed. I already see some policy changes and we are waiting for return to peace in Afghanistan.
    My problem with you guys is that you don’t want to settle any problems.

  99. D_a_n

    @ Pagan….

    please crawl back into Shiv’s orfice…that where you came from didn’t you. Ive heard they give out free copies of his book there…
    put THAT in your chaddi!

  100. Tilsim

    “My problem with you guys is that you don’t want to settle any problems.”

    It is true, and true on our side too. Let’s keep persevering. No change with pessimism. When the hateful can attack a Sufi shrine, a symbol and place of hope, we know the size of the challenge.

  101. Moosa

    I’d like to share a famous historical quotation with you: “”In Germany, the Nazis first came for the communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist. Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t Jewish.
    Then they came for the trade unionist, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for the homosexuals, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a homosexual. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak for me.” [Rev. Martin Niemoeller, German Lutheran Pastor].

    The problem is that people in Pakistan are very selfish, everybody is looking out for himself without caring about his neighbour or countrymen, and this will ultimately end up in the destruction of the nation. It started with attacks against ahmadis, then shias, now sufis, then it will be liberal sunnis, then it will be sunnis who don’t have beards. I’m not joking, I have a salafi friend who said he got fed up of some of his salafi brothers because they started criticising other salafis whose beards were not long enough or whose trousers were too long. Remember, people, it won’t stop at ahmadis or shias or sufis. One day these people will come for you. But because you didn’t stand up against this evil when it started, it will get bigger and bigger, and it will swallow you up, and at this late stage it will be unstoppable. But you watched this monster growing and growing before your eyes… how did you allow this to happen?😦

  102. shiv

    @ D_a_n

    I probably should not be doing this – but I must give credit where is is due because you have illustrated one of the characteristics of Pakistan as pointed out by numerous worthies including Stephen “Uneven” Cohen and most recently Anatol Lieven

    But first let me quote what you wrote in 2 different posts:

    What with you being a massive war monger and talking of war this and war that but never having picked up a rifle and manned a post.
    My family’s been doing that for 4 generations from Burma-north Africa to chamb to the skies over your home….

    and

    Especially from an NDA exam fail/ pseudo warrior like you.

    LOL. Amazing – straight from the horses mouth!

    By claiming a military lineage for yourself and by making me failed NDA you are making yourself the Brahmin to my Shudra. The military guy compared to the non military guy. What you are saying is that you belong to the military caste. The much maligned “martial race” of Pakistan! Wowee! Fancy that.

    In fact both Cohen and Lieven point out the extreme contempt that the Pakistani military have for civilians.

    But sir! This military superiority business does not work anywhere else in the world. It only works in Pakistan. OK maybe in Uganda or some such place – I don’t know. But you military types should know. ROTFL. I mean I thought I had met them all – in terms of Pakistanis. Those who feel they are tall, fair and handsome to the Indian short, skinny and dark. But here is a guy who is living out the “I have a military lineage so I am superior” right in front of me. I would not have believed it if you had not spat that out at me. So it IS true.

    You don’t know my background and it doesn’t matter – but I know that many people who lurk on here are going to have a hearty laugh at your fauji superiority complex.

    “Yes sir! No sir! Three bags full sir! Forward march! Chaddi utaar! Peechey Mode! Bhaago!” and all that tradition. LOL!

    Thanks for that interlude. It was fun.

  103. Pagan

    Parvez,

    While peace in Afghanistan is desired, I don’t see how it helps Pakistan. If peace returns to AF, US might leave the region and with it goes your aid $$ that Pak was getting from US to fight “their” (US) war. Just like peace and development in Pak does not necessarily translate to peace for India, peace in AF does not necessarily translate to peace in Pak. First of all, why should Pak wait for peace in AF to clean up its mess? What has reforms in education got anything to do with peace in AF?

    Last time there was some peace in AF, Pak installed a monster there called Taliban.

    D_a_n,

    chill man.. take a deep breath and relax. watch some Bollywood movie. Watch Lakshya.

  104. shiv

    D_a_n

    Sir. I re read your messages. I think you may be an Indian imposter pretending to be Pakistani. But I digress

    You wrote

    ‘increasing percentage of people for whom Pakistan does not really give a damn and whose presence in Pakistan has been denied for decades.’

    bloody hateful liar!! just where is the evidence of this denial is never mentioned….

    From one source:

    LAHORE, 28 September 2009 (IRIN) 1 Dotted around Pakistan are vast estates run by feudal landlords who command enormous economic and political power, condemning their tenants to poverty, reform activists charge.

    On some of these estates, debt bondage has forced 1.8 million people to work the land for no pay,
    generation after generation, according to the campaigning group Anti1Slavery International. On others, sharecropping systems are practised, under which landless tenants hand over between two1thirds and half of the crops they produce to the landowner.

    ……

    About 2 percent of households control more than 45 percent of the land area. Powerful farmers have also taken advantage of government subsidies in water and agriculture, and benefited from technological improvements which have boosted yields, according to the World Bank.

    …….

    The sense of injustice created by the continued hold of feudal landlords and the poverty this gives rise to has been a key factor in rising social discontent 1 aided and abetted by militant groups.
    “I am a landless farmer. Last year my teenage son was persuaded by members of an organization
    engaged in jihad [holy war] to come away with them. They told him it is better to wield a gun and learn to use it than eke out a miserable existence tilling land,” Riazuddin Ahmed, from Vehari in southern Punjab, told IRIN.

    “My son is only 17. He saw no hope ahead of him, and therefore went away with these people. His mother and I are distraught. But we believe he has gone to the northern areas and we have no means of finding him,” he said.

    From another source:

    Poverty estimates using official poverty line suggest the high prevalence of rural poverty ranging from 39% to 48% in all provinces. Rural poverty is found to be strongly correlated with lack of asset in rural areas. The unequal land
    ownership in the country is found to be one of the major causes of poverty as poverty level was the highest among the landless households followed by non- agriculture households. The landless households are substantially high in rural areas. About 75% households own no land in the country. Notably 0.05% households own greater than 2 hectares of land in Punjab as well as in Sindh suggesting a highly skewed land ownership pattern. Punjab has the highly unequal land ownership pattern followed by NWFP, Sindh and Baluchistan. The highly unequal land distribution seems to have resulted in tenancy arrangements
    such as sharecropping resulting in high prevalence of absolute poverty particularly in Sindh.

    ..

    The results suggest that 42.97% population in rural areas and 26.04% population
    in urban areas were poor in 2001-02. This implies that 55 million individuals out of 145 milion.

    Is that old? has it all changed?

    From 2008
    By Huzaima Bukhari and Dr Ikramul Haq
    According to a study conducted by the Centre for Research on Poverty and Income Distribution (CRPID), 63 per cent of poor in Pakistan fall in
    the category of ‘transitory poor’. The State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) has also admitted in its annual reports that the standard definition of ‘transitory poor’ includes those households that are below the poverty line for most of the time, but not always, during a defined period. The remaining 32 per cent and five per cent of the population that
    subsist below the poverty line are ‘chronic’ and ‘extremely poor’, respectively. ‘Chronic’ and ‘extremely’ poor are those households that
    are below the poverty line all the time during a defined period. Similarly, on the other side, 13 per cent and 21 per cent of total non1poor (above the poverty line) are classified as ‘transitory vulnerable’ and ‘transitory non1poor’, respectively.
    This portrays an alarming situation, as more and more people are moving from the ‘transitory’ category to the ‘chronic category’, courtesy inequitable distribution of income and wealth, monopoly over assets and regressive tax policies. Rulers in Pakistan have never showed any commitment to economic and social justice as their primary political goal. One wonders if the new government is aware of this state of affairs and is devising some practical ways to help mprove
    the situation.

    However, the single most devastating factor for increased income and wealth inequalities in Pakistan remains the regressive tax system.
    Incidence of tax on the poor in the last 10 years has increased substantially (by about 35 per cent), while the rich are paying almost no direct tax on their colossal income and wealth. Study of Pakistan from this political economy perspective is very crucial, as our society is fast adopting dehumanising characteristics. We are faced with
    economic disparities, shortage of food and lack of essentials services. The great divide between the rich and the poor in today’s Pakistan is assuming alarming proportions, and may eventually lead to a civil war if preventive measures are not adopted immediately.

    From 2010 January
    Political scientists have long worried about the distress produced in societies in which there
    are sharp income differences. Somewhat belatedly economists have come to the same
    conclusion. In Pakistan these economic disparities have resulted in great violence against
    the state and the citizens of the country. Some of the elements within society have been
    behind violence mostly for ideological, reasons. Insurgency in Pakistan has been caused by
    the merger of several different streams. If we look at the growth of extremism in the country
    we see that it is concentrated in the more backward parts of the country.

    From the Dawn
    4 Jun 2010

    In the last two years, the prices of eatables had skyrocketed – making life miserable for every one in the province, he said. The flour prices went up by 100 per cent (from Rs16 per Kg to Rs32), sugar by 168 per cent (from Rs28 to Rs75 per Kg), chicken meat by 70 per cent (from Rs100 to Rs170 per Kg), milk by 100 per cent (from Rs25 to Rs50 per litter) and yogurt by 83 per cent (from Rs30 to Rs55 per Kg).
    ….

    “In the last two years, crimes have gone up by 48 per cent, which is a matter of official record. All kinds of heinous crimes are being committed with impunity and ruling MNAs and MPAs are involved in such crimes. Extra judicial killings have also gone up. The police budget is multiplying along with the crime rate,” he claimed.

    Elahi said the advocate general cost Rs700,000 per month along with two vehicles and five-star hotel stay. The Lahore commissioner is drawing a Rs340,000 salary as project director of Ring Road, Chief Minister’s Task Force Chairman (Farooq Naveed) draws a Rs280,000 monthly salary, the Liquidation Board chairman Rs400,000 and AD Analysis Khalid Sherdil Rs200,000. “All these appointments are personal, but cost the province,” he claimed.

    All lies I suppose

    “Normally there is more than 20 million tonnes of (wheat) consumption in Pakistan, but
    last year only 18 million tonnes were consumed,” he said at the release of a report on
    food security in Pakistan.
    Wheat is used to make roti and naan, or flat unleavened breads, which is the central
    component of Pakistanis’ diet from the rugged tribal north to the restaurant tables of the
    capital.
    The price of wheat and flour have soared over the last two years as the government
    struggles to keep its economy afloat with the help of loans from the International
    Monetary Fund, and control inflation, which has hit the poor the most.
    “We are very concerned,” Herbinger said. “That, of course, is the result of declining
    purchasing power.” Stagnant incomes and inflation are putting food out of reach, he
    added.
    Pakistan’s central bank on Tuesday revised its average inflation forecast for 2009110
    upwards at between 11.5 per cent and 12.5 per cent, compared with the earlier forecast
    of between 11.0 per cent and 12.0 per cent.
    A government task force on food security estimated last year that about 62 million of 170
    million people were below the poverty line in the 2008-09 (July-June) fiscal years.
    According to the report, 15.7 percent of the population does not get enough food, while 58
    per cent are on the borderline. The people in the northwest tribal areas and Balochistan
    are the most affected.

  105. shiv

    Here are some more lies.

    This is an excert of the story of Ajmal Kasab – the only one of the Mumbai killers who was captured. he knew how to hold a gun – so I guess D_a_n may feel empathy. But how did he learn to hold that gun and why?

    Born on July 13, 1987, the 21-year-old resident of Pakistan’s Faridkot village is the third of five siblings. His family is from the underprivileged Kasai (butcher) caste. Kasab’s father Mohd Amir Iman owns a dahi puri snack cart while his mother Noor-e-Tai is a homemaker.

    His family could not afford Kasab’s studies beyond the fourth grade. He left home in 2005 after an argument with his parents.

    He stayed at a shrine and worked as a labourer. In two years, he started earning Rs 200 a day but that was not enough to feed young Kasab’s ambitions.

    Along with his friend Muzaffar Khan, he soon became a thief but his lust for money gradually lured Kasab into the folds of LeT.

    “While we were in search of firearms, we saw an LeT stall at Raja Bazar in Rawalpindi on the day of Bakri Id. We thought that even if we procured firearms we could not operate them. Therefore, we decided to join LeT for weapon training,” Kasab told investigators.

    From there on, began a young boy’s journey into the world of terrorism — beginning from Rawalpindi to Muridke and into Marqas Taiyyaba, the LeT base camp.

    Two months after the first two levels of training, Kasab went home to Faridkot, where he is said to have shared his Jehadi intentions with his mother Noor-e-tai.

    “I told ammi that I am going for Jehad against India and she said that it’s not the right way,” Kasab confessed to Mumbai Crime Branch investigators.

    But for Kasab, there was no looking back.

    The fundamentalist world of LeT had given him his much sought after purpose in life.

    Here is a news item from Dec 17 2008
    Kasab is not a Pakistani: Pak high commissioner
    Updated at: 2015 PST, Wednesday, December 17, 2008
    NEW DELHI: Pakistan’s high commissioner to India, Shahid Malik has said that Ajmal Kasab is not a Pakistani citizen.

    He said that Maulana Masood Azhar was also not present in Pakistan.

    Who is in denial?

  106. D_a_n

    @ shiv
    whatever old man!!

    You are am uncouth, pathetic, 3rd rate man who crows with unbridled delight when innocent people burn…

    A wart on the already festering asshole of society who DESPITE being asked again and fucking again so to why you are here does not answer because nothing but hate and hate alone brings you here

    a sordid affirmation of your 3rd rate lifes work. Even your own country men had to plead for mercy from your sick glee and show some decency. Ref vajras request to you.

    I have been on this forum
    long enough for people to know me and my lineage and that I am no liar like you and at my young age a man of honour. I don’t need to
    prove anything.

    You are sick with hatred. I am sure you gave fed that same hate to your most foul offspring as well and that you marinate in this hate and find no escape from it. Dying a hateful man who found his shits and giggles from the suffering of others. May this hate always be your hallmark.

    I lost a realtive and a friend back in December to something similar. You were probably jerking yourself off into a orgasmic rapture for that as well so allow me to say FUCK YOU and all who talk and think like you for you are scum and an embaressment to right thinking Indians everywhere.

    Please ask them how you make them cringe! Go ahead!!

    Uncouth bastard. Put that in that roll
    of toilet paper you call a book.

    @ pagan

    I don’t know at what point you realized that you have been shat out of that orfice shiv calls a mouth but it seems that didn’t bother you one bit.
    Again just what are you doing here with your patron saint shiv will not be answered.
    Just more bakwas.
    Blow me fan boy.

  107. D_a_n

    @ shiv

    Nothing to say to you old man..Nothing more. At least for today.

  108. Bin Ismail

    Never was this holy shrine desecrated, over the past millennium. During the Sikh rule, the rulers took special care of this shrine, and with utmost reverence. Under the auspices of an “Islamic Republic”, this shrine is finally bombed.

  109. shiv

    @ D_a_n
    I lost a realtive and a friend back in December to something similar. You were probably jerking yourself off into a orgasmic rapture for that as well so allow me to say FUCK YOU and all who talk and think like you for you are scum and an embaressment to right thinking Indians everywhere .

    Well – when you stop firing verbal bullets from what passes for your bandook you might know that you are not the only person on earth to have such experiences.

    When the same thing happens to more than a few people who are close to you – your oral bandook cocks up. Stop moaning petulant child. In the long term we are all dead but those who have any sense have to open their eyes to reality.

  110. D_a_n

    @ shiv

    you foul, foul man. At least I didn’t have my countrymen begging me to show decency.

    Not going to put that in your chutiya book now are you?

  111. D_a_n

    If EVER there was a walking, talking case for the benifits of contraception; it. Is. Shiv!!!

  112. Parvez

    Shiv,
    Would you consider moving your rants to “Chowk.com” ? There many people with your level of intellect over there.

  113. Bin Ismail

    Gentlemen, let’s back to the original topic of discussion ” Lahore’s shrine bombed…”. This is a sad moment that calls for solemn introspection.

    Let us not be oblivious of he fact that the Data Darbar is not the only shrine in Pakistan. Many men of God lie buried in this country. Therefore, there are other shrines too, that are exposed to the risk of being attacked by beasts.

  114. shiv

    Let me post a new item from 2007, from the aftermath of Lal Masjid on how and where these “beasts” come from – by Husain Haqqani


    As for the army, its leadership’s vision also remains limited to conventional balance of power concepts. Pakistan’s elite appears oblivious to the country’s slow hemorrhaging.

    Government economists cite increasing mobile phone use and expanding sales of motorcycles and cars as signs of progress and speak of the privatisation programme being a regional success.

    Pakistan’s elite now drives around in Porsches, more of which have been sold in the city of Lahore alone than the car’s manufacturer had envisaged for the entire country. The pace of construction for new country clubs, golf clubs and luxury hotels also reflects growing prosperity of a select few.

    Pakistan reveals multiple realities and the temptation to let optimism prevail is great. But, in essence, Pakistan has a high level of dysfunction and unpredictability.

    A former Pakistani finance minister and World Bank economist recently told a roundtable on Pakistan in Washington DC that in most countries 6-8 per cent economic growth should translate into reduction in poverty by 10 per cent. He said that trickle down does not seem to be working in Pakistan as 6-8 per cent growth rates have not reduced poverty at the rate of the global average.

    Pakistan’s growth is not creating jobs and is not helping alleviate poverty at a rapid pace. He estimated that 65 million Pakistanis live in absolute poverty while another 65 million live in poverty. Only 30 million Pakistanis are well-to-do.

    The well-to-do often ignore the rage and anger brewing among the poor, who will be particularly vulnerable to extremist ideologies if political inclusion does not replace the current system of oligarchic rule.

    Nothing short of a complete overhaul of the state structure under elected democratic leadership, based on rule of law and well-defined roles for all institutions, will bring Pakistan from the brink where it currently finds itself.

  115. Majumdar

    Dan bhai et al,

    There is a better way of countering Shivji than hurling abuses. Invite Riaz haq sahib to PTH- the two gentlemen will take care of each other.

    Btw, I strongly resent this “go back to chowk” message. Shivji isnt a chowkie.

    Regards

  116. Iltija

    @ Majumdar…

    my apologies to you and all other Sane chowkies….

    by the way….abuse is the only thing that is fit for this man. Do you expect him to modulate any of his sick hatred at his age?

    If he was that courageous to begin with we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

  117. shiv

    @ Iltija
    by the way….abuse is the only thing that is fit for this man. Do you expect him to modulate any of his sick hatred at his age?

    Do you think I post here because of hatred? Let me say this straight. If I say things that people like on here I will be lying. Coochie coo. Is that what you want to hear?

    Even today 4th July 2010 there is an interview in the Dawn that says about terrorists and militancy: Note the words “Unhappy personal backgrounds”. Google for studies on suicide bombers

    Q.What traits would you say are common to the hundreds of militants you have interviewed?

    Ans: They are all products of repressive and obscurantist social systems and come from unhappy personal backgrounds. They are the products of societies where democracy failed. They are all committed to jihad, which empowers them. They are ready to give their lives or take others’ lives for the sake of their cause.

    Pakistan is in trouble because many of you ostensibly educated people do not seem to be able to understand what is going wrong even when someone smears it on your faces. I can now see why only the most patient ad polite Indians can come on here repeatedly. One has to tread tippy toe and tell a few lies here and there to keep people happy.

    Very few Pakistanis seem to have the guts to be able to try and pinpoint what needs to be done in Pakistan. As usual – I am (or some other external agent is) the problem for pointing it out. Blaming some external agent is par for the course. And some of you guys continue to beat about the bush.

    Your society and what you have have believed needs serious overhaul starting from education and rights of the poor. I know damn well that people like D_a_n will start hallucinating about my sexual fantasies the minute I start talking about Pakistan. Tough to hear a friggin kafir enemy “naturally filled with hate” saying it? So it must be a lie. And you can go back to sleep. It was just a bad dream. No Ahmedis were killed. No damage done in Data Saheb. Just a stupid kafir having an orgasm. Coochie coo to you too.

    Many of the people whom you have been taught to think of as good are not good. Many whom you think are bad are not as bad as you think. The anger I see here is clearly the anger of cognitive dissonance. Some of you guys can’t even think straight – you think of my sexuality and my personality on here? wtf?

    You have 3 serious problems
    1) Rabid Mullahs
    2) A desperate population of several tens of millions who couldn’t care less
    3) Access to bombs and guns.

    All three need to be addressed and nobody is doing it.

    Do you think I am saying this so it can help me masturbate? Are things so desperate out there that you guys don’t know what is required for that?

    Let me speak frankly. Many of the most rabid and murderous Islamists in Pakistan are made of much better stuff than some of the morons who have made posts about me here. Those murderous Islamist leaders are far more intelligent and well informed about Pakistan and who needs to be sorted out. They are just doing it the wrong way. They are doing it the only way they have been taught and that education was acquired in Pakistan. And of course the same people have been used to target India in the past and I can imagine the anger they have against hypocritical Pakistani society, its fraudulent politicians and an army that works for US money.

    I am not the problem folks – even if I am ejaculating with every word I type.

  118. D_a_n

    @ Shiv…

    Just how much you hate us is pretty much summed up in this:

    ‘Many of the most rabid and murderous Islamists in Pakistan are made of much better stuff than some of the morons who have made posts about me here. Those murderous Islamist leaders are far more intelligent and well informed about Pakistan and who needs to be sorted out.’

    There is nothing left to say old man. really.

    and just for jollies the following:

    ‘One has to tread tippy toe and tell a few lies here and there to keep people happy.’

    Thats nice! so all other Indians who don’t agree with you are Liars now eh?

    Thats rich! are you sure you didn’t say that because they have been begging you not to embarrass them here?

    you can go eat a cup cake out of Pagan’s ass now….

  119. Mustafa Shaban

    A very tragic incident. May Allah help the families affected! May Allah bless those who died with Paradise!

  120. DeWalker

    Actually Dan, you of the military cock in the butt is best types, you guys are in deep doo doo, given the manner in which you are responding to Shiv

    Hes posting facts and figures which you imbeciles cant even challenge, and if you are what pass for Pak liberals, it shows the morass in which Pakistan is. As an Indian, if I hated Pakistan, I should be happy, because you people are in such total denial, you will never be able to influence any change, and more Pakistanis will die, at the hands of those same jihadis whom you rich, powerful types so passionately defended on the internet as freedom fighters. Times have changed, have they not, but still you have no wisdom.

    Thats the most amazing thing. Your identification with your self image of Pakistan is so complete, you cannot even understand what Shiv is saying. On Bharat Rakshak he is not really that popular anymore, as he now seems to be actually concerned about Pakistan, but for you lot here, nothing but coochy coo shall do. You want to hear fake talk as long as it sounds good.

    Gentlemen, Pak is looking down the abyss, thanks to your so called strategic professionals and your army, who support good terrorists versus bad terrorists, and both are busy killing fools like you, who have given their life up to the powerful thanks to propoganda. I thought we Indians were fools for electing political SOBs who for votebank politics deliberately let security be a second grade concern, but you lot are far worse, you dont even realise you are in trouble WOW

  121. shiv

    Well DeWalker – I suppose I will cause even more anger if I point out that I am following the advice of the Bhagwad Gita, which says “Do your duty and act, but do not ask for the fruits of any action that you think are due to you”

    I believe that Pakistani indoctrination to hate kafirs and blame kafirs has still not reached at least 50% of Pakistanis because the education system is as inefficient and dysfunctional as everything else in Pakistan. The great Pakistani cowdung brains with Hindu genes who thought this idiocy up imagined that “kafirs” would be Hindus and did not anticipate that kafirs means Shias, Ahmedis and now Sufis as well. You cannot create purity out of impure genes can you? LOL!

    There is an urgent need to catch those who are not indoctrinated and teach them right from wrong. But when such info comes from a stupid wanker “master-baiter” kafir Indian with the name shiv the god of the cock worship – some Pakistanis see red and shut off what passes for brains.

    If my time spent here helps produce better kids than what Pakistan has tried to produce so far, well and good. If Pakistan still fails, I feel I would have done my duty in trying.

  122. D_a_n

    @ DeWalker / Shiv

    I didn’t think of it earlier but you are assholes and hence I don’t really need to talk to you…

    Best feeling I’ve had all day🙂

  123. DeWalker

    Dan we may be “assholes” but it is your asshole that is being penetrated by the Taliban every other day, and the point is, what are you going to do about it?

    Instead of blaming me, Shiv, the jews, the Americans, and making grandiose posts about how many of your tight a$$ed fair relatives man the posts in the Pakistani Army?

    Look at the irreverent manner in which Shiv talks about himself and his own hindu heritage. I as a Hindu may find it offensive, but am I going to attack him for it? Can any Pakistani muslim, either on this board or otherwise, speak likewise about Islam and its leaders without having serious threats used against him.

    The problem is you guys have internalized such a bombastic narrative about yourself, that you cannot even reconcile to the mildest criticism. Shiv, pointed out poverty and the manner in which Pakistans strategic elite have used it to their ends. He did not even mock your religion, which most Pakistanis are so fanatical about (considering your actual heritage, it still amazes me) but yet you responded with reams of scatalogical abuse.

    You can curse the “old @@##$” but does it make what he says any less true?

    Your nation, and many of your nations citizens, supported attacks in Kashmir using specious logic, even support terrorism in India, but now, your own dogs of war, the jihadis find many of your rich, powerful elite, equally worthy targets as we “kaffir, idol worshippers” are. What will you do now?

    Will you continue to rant against us, call us names, think of how the Indian Army is oppressing Kashmiris, the Russians versus the Chechnyans, the Israelis are attacking Palestinians, the Americans versus the Iraqis or will you finally get your head out of the sand (or your posterior if you wish) and realize that you can only have a peaceful country, if you disown these terrorist animals whom your elite created?

    At least we are sitting half a subcontinent away. For every successful attack, there are many prevented by our agencies, Govt etc despite all the latters incompetence. In your case, you have these guys in your own cities, and next to you. Your loved ones, run more of a risk than the average Indians kaffir butt.

    If that does not make you think, nothing will.

  124. Pagan

    DeWalker,

    If they disown the terrorists (or are they freedom fighters?) how will they bleed India through 1000 cuts? How will they wage a 1000 year war to get Kashmir?

    Reading all the comments, it is clear who the real asshole is.

  125. karun1

    I wonder how the moderators are allowing D_A_N to use such filthy language. hypocrisy i guess.

    and most amazing: when mumbai happened at least India had the moral upper ground to look down upon paikstan because it were pakistanis sailing from karachi who were the perpetrators.

    How for decades the terrorists from pakistan pillaged and burnt Kashmir under the pretext of Kashmir.

    I am sure during the last two bloody decades Indians were never so touchy as this Kid is behaving right now.

  126. karun1

    under the pretext of freedom

  127. shiv

    @ DeWalker
    Look at the irreverent manner in which Shiv talks about himself and his own hindu heritage. I as a Hindu may find it offensive, but am I going to attack him for it?

    The meaning of liberalism cannot seriously be understood if one’s religion gets in the way of saying things out loud.

    That is why I said in some other thread that “Liberalism exists only within the bounds set for it by conservatism”. Conservatism, more often than not is religious conservatism. Liberalism in Pakistan can only exist within the bounds of propriety allowed for it by the religious ethos of Pakistan. And that defines one of Pakistan’s current problems.

    The religious ethos that Pakistan developed had to be different from that of India. And that ethos was “liberal”(not!) in allowing criticism of all non Islamic faiths. There is a slippery slope from “criticism” to “hate” to elimination and Pakistanis were liberal in allowing minority non Islamic religions to be eliminated. In fact this is not liberalism at all, it it was a consolidation of religious conservatism – but as long as someone else was getting the boot and feeling the sharp end of the knife thousands of educated Pakistanis did not even produce a squeak of protest over the decades from 1947 to 2001 or so.

    As long as someone else is being raped, the need for liberalism among Pakistanis was completely non existent. No Pakistani has ever spoken up against the elimination of minorities in Pakistan as long as they could be called Hindu or Sikh.

    What is happening in Pakistan today is that Pakistanis have moved one notch closer to more conservatism. The religious conservatives have been given enough power and leeway to start hitting people close to home. And the reason why Pakistanis sound like such utter frauds to me is that they were all silent spectators all these decades as long as the same Pakistani religious conservatism was viciously attacking those whom most Pakistanis agreed were “non Muslims”

    But now some of you think Ahmedis and Sufis are Muslims. Some Pakistanis don’t. Who is correct? What makes you think you are correct – you who sat by and watched and cheered all these years when the people whom all Pakistanis agreed were “non Muslim” were being weeded out? How come all was fine and dandy then but times are troubled now? How laughably absurd.

    What makes you right if you think Ahmedis and Sufis are Muslims? Maybe there are not. You have people right here on this board saying that at least about Ahmedis. They are certainly getting the same treatment.

    How the hell can liberals complain about “Lack of support” for their cause when their case is so patently hypocritical? It is the religious conservatives of Pakistan who have been perfectly consistent. They have not changed their stance. They are relentlessly heading towards a particular goal of purity. Isn’t it the liberals who are waffling? And a cowardly hypocritical waffling that was nowhere in the horizon when some kafir ass was getting kicked.

    But sirs, (and mesdames) you can’t have it both ways. You can’t hunt with the conservative hounds when Hindus and Sikhs are targeted and now try and run with the hares when Ahmedis and Sufis are targeted.

  128. Goolam

    The tragic death toll now stands at 41 people. But what’s truly sad is reading these comments, is the sense of hopelessness amongst Pakistanis. AND the need for violent physical reprisals to “sort the issue out”. A fundamental problem, is that Pakistanis consider pluralism a matter of urgency when it serves the Islamic faith, but otherwise unnecessary. As Muslims, we put the cart before the horse when we expect the country/nation/ummah to lead the principles. These terrorists are nothing but the product of a modern Islamic society. We need to take control of the ideals and make them politically relevant.

  129. Goolam

    Shiv, you’re a complete moron. But its typical that the very same Indians; who can hide their bitter failures as well as their own internal failings in honouring a true democracy, and the bad faith shown by the Indian government to its non-Hindu neighbours, would now seek to further stir the same racist half-baked assumptions about Muslim countries … after people have died.

  130. shiv

    Goolam stop kidding yourself. Pakistanis are wiping out other Pakistanis and you are whining about India and me? Get a life. Go pay some zakat to Jamat ud dawa so you can celebrate the next time some Indians are killed. Put a carnation behind your ear and sing “Happy days are here again” with the Lashkar e Toiba and the Tehrik e Taliban because the real kafirs are once again being targeted. Just like the good old days.

    What a pathetic bunch of losers! Come back and blame me the next time one of your pure friends blows himself up in India – it’s almost time for another attack in India. I will be here to mock you if I am not bumped off.

  131. I can’t believe that Data Darbar was attacked. Things in Pakistan are getting worse and worse every day. My condolences to everyone who lost someone in this attack. I pray to whatever gods there are that things get better soon.