Extremism – Right this wrong

Kashif Jahangiri

We cannot divorce the present form of terrorism from religious extremism. The terrorists are a fruit of the tree called extremism. We need to uproot the tree, as otherwise the poisonous fruit will keep on growing.

With the approval rating of the Taliban on the decline for some time, they needed to do something to regain their lost support. Their target was, therefore, a community that has been long persecuted in the name of religion; a community against whom anything can be uttered without any fear of the law; a section of society that you can declare wajibul qatl on television shows. The target chosen by the Taliban was calculated to achieve two objectives: (a) challenging the government’s writ and (b) gaining some of their lost support by carrying out a “noble” deed.

At a time when most Pakistanis had hung their heads in shame, the Lahore incident encouraged one Abid Butt in Narowal to stab two Ahmedi men, killing one of them. Reports say Abid Butt has vowed not to leave any Ahmedi alive. This follow-up incident only underscores the need to attack the real disease, because otherwise symptoms like Abid Butt will keep surfacing.

It is, therefore, important that, as a first step, we analyse the issue in retrospect. The religious parties that are so powerful in Pakistan today had opposed the country’s very creation, calling it “Na-Pakistan” and “Paleedistan” (“Land of Filth” or “Land of Immorality”) and calling the Quaid-e-Azam (Great Leader) “Kafir-e-Azam” (Great Infidel) for his secular views. Of course, they would not have reacted in this manner if Pakistan had been conceived as a theocratic state, or as a state only for Muslims.

In his speech of Aug 11, 1947, to the Constituent Assembly, the Quaid-e-Azam set out his vision in the following words: “In due course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims; not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.” Clearly, the Pakistan of today is a million miles from this vision. Today it appears that Pakistan was created by the religious parties of today for imposing on us their version of Sharia. Something has drastically changed over the past six decades that has resulted in this image of Pakistan, which is far from what was conceived by the Quaid-e-Azam. We need to revisit history to see what went wrong, and where.

The creation of Pakistan had come as a shock to the religious parties, which had lost their battle against a secular person, the Quaid-e-Azam. But they soon found an opportunity to make political gains by objecting to the Quaid-e-Azam’s appointment of Sir Zafarullah Khan, an Ahmedi, as the first foreign minister of Pakistan. They forgot that he was one of those who drafted the Lahore Resolution and served as counsel to the Muslim League before the Boundary Commission. He was even dubbed as an Indian agent, although it was his speeches before the UN General Assembly that resulted in the UN resolutions on Kashmir calling for a plebiscite in the territory.

As part of their agitation, a publication by the name ‘Ash-shahab’ (First written by Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani in 1920) was reprinted in March 1950. It aimed to establish that Ahmedis were wajibul qatl. The document was constantly quoted as a fatwa by the religious leaders. In a public meeting in Rawalpindi, from 14 to 16 April 1950, almost every speaker referred to the ‘Ash-shahab’. All this built up the temperature and finally resulted in the riots of 1953 that claimed scores of innocent lives.

While Sir Zafarullah’s refusal to attend the funeral of the Quaid-e-Azam was widely talked about, people were not told the reason for this refusal: that the funeral prayers of the founder of Pakistan were led by the same Maulana who had declared Ahmedis wajibul qatl.

The 1954 report of the court of inquiry set up under Justice Munir is an eye-opener. The commission found that no two sects were in agreement on the definition of the word “Mussalman”. Certain sects said that if they came to power they would not hesitate to eliminate other sects. The approach adopted by the government in tackling the matter in the 1950s was not the best course of action, as it only swept the issue under the carpet.

Mr Bhutto wanted to become a leader of global fame. The strong personality of Indira Gandhi was a big hurdle in the formation of a South Asian bloc for him to lead. He sought an opportunity to lead the Islamic bloc instead. Building on the success of the Second Islamic Summit held in Lahore in February 1974, he decided to bring the issue of Ahmedis before parliament. Perhaps Bhutto thought that it would only be a matter of legal classification limited to the Constitution, without fully appreciating the future implications of his move. Whatever the reason, parliament assumed, and exercised, a right which it did not have in the first place, that of determining someone’s faith. We should have left such things to the Day of Judgment, but alas.

Ahmedis were excommunicated. This was followed by the draconian Ordinance XX of 1984 which was introduced by Ziaul Haq as part of his “Islamisation” project, which was deemed necessary to persuade people to participate in “jihad” across the Durand Line. The ordinance prohibited Ahmedis from propagating and preaching their faith, from calling their places of worship “mosques” and from calling themselves Muslim. Under this ordinance, scores of Ahmedis have been sentenced for “heinous crimes,” including those of reciting the Kalima Tayyaba and using the Islamic greeting of As-salaam-o-alaikum.

The Ahmedis’ excommunication was soon to be followed by Shia-Sunni tensions. The number of Shia-Sunni killings is far greater than that involving Ahmedis. Meanwhile, the divide between Deobandis and Barelvis is widening. All this is a natural consequence of what parliament did in 1974.

It is time 1974’s 2nd Amendment to the Constitution and Ziaul Haq’s Ordinance XX were reconsidered. You need not be a theologian to understand the destructive aspects of these legislations. Once you set an example of excommunicating a sect for having a belief different from yours, you encourage a sectarian mindset in people as a whole, with followers of some sects regarding other sects as being beyond the pale of Islam.

The deviation from the vision of the Quaid-e-Azam has been very costly. Today, the world sees us as a terrorists-making factory. We have mutilated the image of our religion, which for many has become a symbol of violence. The state should promote tolerance, not through empty utterances but by undoing the wrongs committed in the past. If we are to correct the wrongs, we must begin by getting our basics right.

The writer is an accountant living in Dublin. Email: kashif.jahangiri@gmail.com

First published in The News – June 5, 2010

46 Comments

Filed under Pakistan

46 responses to “Extremism – Right this wrong

  1. Syed

    Most of our Muslim ulema have amply demonstrated their inability to coexist peacefully with differing views even within ‘state-sanctioned’ Islam. It is all too clear that interpreting Islam sensibly is simply beyond them.
    When they don’t have the competence to follow a religion then how can their demand for implementing Shariat be correct. Ulema are in serious need of self-reformation instead of them trying to reform the ‘system’.

  2. Rashid Saleem

    What we need to admit and understand is that our first Foreign Minister appointed by Mr. Jinnah belonged to the community on which the Lahore slaughter episode was conducted. The riots in 1953 which led to this catastrophe, was an example of how Mullah’s hijacked us. We need to resign from such indoctrination and live Jinnah’s dream of a secular Pakistan.

  3. Straight Shooter

    @ Kashif Jahangiri

    My Dear Nephew:

    No words are enough to condemn the carnage on May28, 2010 of innocent Qadian-Ahmadi Muslims. I believe all those who lost their lives are martyrs. You wrote a good article, but unfortunately, you have ignored to mention role of Qadiani-Ahmadi leaders, especially those who took helm of Qadiani-jamaat in 1914.
    Personally, first time I came to know that Qadiani-Ahmadis do not offer jannazah prayer of General Muslims, when your respected father, while at the funeral, did not offer janazah prayer of former Ameer of Qadiani-Jamaat of Hazara Division. (Unfortunately, the deceased became “Muslim” in 1974 after the riots by cursing Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib. Of course under pressure of Mullah-Mafia of Hazara Division). Interestingly, even Lahori-Ahmadis offered the deceased janazah prayer. I think it was year 1977 or 78.

    I honestly believe solution has to come from both sides of the divide.

  4. Straight Shooter

    @Kashif Jahangiri
    I must condole with you the death of Shaikh Munir Ahmad sahib, a victim of Friday massacre. He was President of Qadiani-Ahmadis of Lahore city. I remember we both offered our Mughrab prayer during Ramazan in 1998; he led the prayers, in your neighbor’s home in Pakistan.

  5. Zainab Ali

    The present condition of Pakistan is all because of the deviation from the Quaid’s vision. We as a nation are in shame that we have disregarded the principles on which this country was made. The line from the Quaid’s speech in front of the constituent assembly said it all, “In due course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims; not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.”

  6. Jamal

    @Straight Shooter:

    What has janaza prayer got to do with anything? Why do you want others to read your janaza if you don’t consider them totally kosher anyway? Seems to me a mentality that sees others as bit of slaves who need to show respect to their masters even for matters very absurd and encroaching. This mentality of intolerance and preference for a master-slave relation is the problem. People outside Pakistan read sentences like yours and say ‘what a bigot’.

    Bottom line, you believe and practice what you want and let others believe and practice what they want. Don’t worry of “kuffar” reading your janaza prayer, you are responsible for your own deeds and not of others.

    On a side note what do you think of Maududi and Mian Tufail not reading Quaid-e-Azam’s Janaza?
    Link: sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs505.ash1/29869_397749357212_656582212_4842506_360056_n.jpg

    Is anyone persecuting them or condemning them for that? No. Why?

    It is a well known fact that during the so called ‘Nifaz-e-Nizam-e-Mustaf’ movement against Bhutto the Mullahs of various parties either did not pray behind each other or if they prayed they went back and read their namaz again.

    Keep politics out of religion.

  7. Straight Shooter

    Jamal mian:
    “What has janaza prayer got to do with anything?”

    Without giving respect to each others dead, how you even hope to bring reconcilliation between each others living????
    Dear even Holy prophet Muhammad pbuh stood up for funeral of dead Jew!!

  8. Imran Faris

    Mr. Kashif Jahangiri Thanks for sharing this wonderful blog In Islam extremism not exists because Islam meaning is Peace and Extremism meaning Fuss Islam teach us that no body can impose his or her believes on other person and if any body believes that his or her religion true so he or she must first apply their religion education on his or her with practice according to his or her religion education . than he or she can tell to other with good dealings that my religion makes me very wonder full person. Then if other will feel good he or she will adopt and we cant judge who batter Muslim is or not, only Allah almighty knows who is good Muslim and for this Allah fix a day of Judgment. We all are one Nation and we must live as a strong Nation with unity, faith and discipline

  9. Kashif Jahangiri

    @My dear chacha Rashid Jahangiri (aka Straight Shooter):

    To clarify, Ahmadis have offered and do offer the funeral prayer of non-Ahmadis. However, problem arises when the funeral prayer is led by someone who curses Ahmadis and considers them as outside the pale of Islam. Ahmadis do not participate in a funeral prayer that is led by such a person.

    I guess you are fogetting a little, the funeral in 1977-78 (referred to in your post) was that of my father’s uncle (the husband of my father’s real paternal aunt). At the time of his death, my father was in Saudi Arabia, so a question of his presence at the Janaza does not arise. It was my father’s first cousin, the real son of the deceased, who did no participate in the funeral prayer of his real father. I am sure you will vouch me on this that the deceased father and his son loved each other very much and that there were no family disputes or anything like that between the two. Accordingly, no one would doubt how much the son would want to be part of the funeral prayer. Unfortunately, the Janaza was led by a bigot who had been openly cursing the Ahmadis. The son would have loved to lead the funeral prayer of his father, but of course that was not possible given the hostile environment in the Hazara.

    You would recall that the funeral had taken place in Mansehra where it has always been a custom (since 1974 to date) that the Mullah leading the prayer would, before starting the prayer, loudly curse the Ahmadis and then advise all the people standing behind him to check to their left and right and ensure that no Ahmadi is participating in the funeral prayer. This behaviour is not for the reason that the Ahmadis would participate in a funeral prayer that is being led by such a bigot. It is only a way to show their contempt towards the Ahmadis. This open hate-mongering goes unchecked and, therefore, has an implied backing of teh State of Pakistan.

    Leaving aside the funeral and the kafir-calling issue, I fail to understand what is the business of the State of Pakistan in determining someone’s faith. The behaviour of not participating in namaz (or namaz-e-Janaza) that is led by person from another sect and the Kafir-calling is not new in Muslim history and is also not specific to Ahmadis. Please watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X01htQUvKcQ where Mullahs are calling each other (not to Ahmadis) Kafir and Wajibul Qatl. If the State of Pakistan listens to and acts upon what they say, then there will be less Muslims and more non-Muslims in Pakistan.

    My apologies, but your post was a painful read for me; probably as there was a personal angle to it and also as it had come from a person whom, I had thought, would be aware of the background to the facts.

  10. MODERATORS:

    WILL SOMEONE CORRECT THE SPELLING OF THE HEADLINE AND CORRECT THIS WRONG BEFORE PEOPLE RESORT TO EXTEMISM OF THEIR OWN?

    [extemely grateful, Vajra – PTH]

  11. Kashif Jahangiri

    When I post comments on other blogs on pakteahouse, these are published straight away. My comment here is awaiting moderation for a little while now. Is this specific to me or is everyone here suffering this!

    [Kashif, as a sensible precaution against spam, comments that contain links to websites go into moderation until a moderator is able to approve the link. – PTH]

  12. Jamal

    “Without giving respect to each others dead, how you even hope to bring reconcilliation between each others living????”

    Are you really serious????? When have Ahmadis not respected the dead? That does not mean you have to do janaza for everyone. Ahmadis are being butchered and your claim is that they deserve it in some way as they did not perform some rituals which is their right owing to religion freedom and no one has a right to question them on that? I can’t believe this bigoted mindset of yours.

    Sir you need to come out of dark ages. In civilised world no one cares (or should care) of your beliefs or rituals as long as you don’t go about interfering with others. Respect can be done quietly, no requirement to show off in any way.

    “Dear even Holy prophet Muhammad pbuh stood up for funeral of dead Jew!!”

    So? Did he read his janza? No. So respect is fine in your own way as long as you don’t insult the innocent its fine. I really can’t understand your bigoted point of view. And remember you brought up the exmaple of jew not me.

  13. bciv

    @Straight Shooter

    the rabbi leading the funeral rites did not openly hold and claim muhammad wajib al qatl. even if the rabbi had done so, for the sake of argument, muhammad might still have participated in the funeral, but that is a high standard we need not hold everyone to. the rest, jamal has clarified.

  14. Ammar

    Terrorism has engulfed our society and ironically our media has fallen prey to bizarre conspiracy theories. The media should not glorify such heinous acts but rather engage our society in understanding the circumstances which has radicalized our society. The media need to be a friend in this war against terror rather than being a foe. The Ahemdi’s are as patriotic as any other Pakistani

  15. Straight Shooter

    My dear bhatijay (nephew) KJ:

    I did not want to bring in open names of our family members (ghar ki batain ghar mein hee rahney datay, baghair naam leay, aap nay tu apna naam likh he dia tha mazmoon likhtay howay is blog per). Anyways:

    “To clarify, Ahmadis have offered and do offer the funeral prayer of non-Ahmadis. However, problem arises when the funeral prayer is led by someone who curses Ahmadis and considers them as outside the pale of Islam. Ahmadis do not participate in a funeral prayer that is led by such a person.”

    Marhoom Sheikh Munir Ahmad sahib (president of Qadiani-Ahmadis in Lahore region) was brother in-law (cousin-sister husband) of my mother in-law. He did NOT offer Janazah prayer of younger brother of Qadiani-Ahmadi author Malik Abdul Rehman Khadim Gujrati (author of ‘Ahmadiyya Pocket Book’) in 2002. The deceased was maternal grandfather of my wife. The deceased was former Qadiani Jamaat member but had left it after witnessing…(I better don’t mention details here). He is buried in Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement graveyard. His janazah was offered by General Muslims in his neighbour hood (in Lahore city not far from Ghari-Shoa) and also by Lahori-Ahmadis. Dear nephew facts are facts and nothing can deny it! Ainal-Yakeen’.

    The funeral I’m talking about is of marhoom Maulvi Mohammad Irfan sahib (cousin of my paternal grandfather). Probably, you know he was instrumental in turning my grandfather against my father to the extent that my grandfather was determined to kill his son. As my father had become ‘Murtad’ and ‘Kafir’ by accepting Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib [HMGA] as Mujaddid of 14th Islamic century. Anyways, Allah saved my father. And I’m writing this post today. And then Allah turned around situation that Irfan sahib himself did ba’it of Qadiani-Jamaat Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and went to the extent of accepting HMGA as “nabi/ prophet” [nauzubilah] required to remain a Muslim. And then time came that he cursed HMGA and then of course his Janazah was NOT even offered by Qadiani-Ahmadi friends and Qadiani-Ahmadi family members. And it was Lahori-Ahmadi (i.e. my father, myself and others) bedside other General Muslims who offered his Janazah. Lord works in mysterious ways! Doesn’t He? (I’m just mentioning the facts, dear).

    Dear NO Mullah made announcement before Irfan sahib janazah was offered. That is the reason Lahori-Ahmadis, including my father offered the prayer. This announcement by Mullahs is later inventions from mid 1980s after General Zia, order 20 and Qadiani-Jamaat ‘Kalima-Tahreek’ to assert they are Muslims.

    “Leaving aside the funeral and the kafir-calling issue, I fail to understand what is the business of the State of Pakistan in determining someone’s faith.”

    Dear I agree with you. I won’t make a point here that if Qadiani-Ahmadis were in majority in Pakistan they would have done exactly the same, perhaps more to General Muslims. I know too much in detail when Qadian and later Rabwah were ‘MINI STATES’. Dear beside this, is it not true Qadiani-Ahmadi Muslims believe that they are BETTER MUSLIMS that follow the TRUE ISLAM. More over don’t they follow their slogan, given by Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad, “LOVE FOR ALL, HATRED FOR NONE”. Dear I think this is high time for Qadiani Jamaat friends and relatives to PUT MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.

    Dear I have talked to widow of Shaikh Munir Ahmad sahib. Probably, you know Mullah-Mafia has dropped threatening letter in their home, after the massacre, warning them to become Muslim otherwise their lives are in danger. Dear it is a very perilous and sad situation in Pakistan. My heart goes for Shaheeds who lost their dear lives on bloody Friday may 28, 2010, and to their families.

    Dear educated people like yourself will be important in your Qadiani-Jamaat in coming years. You people have to bring change and save lives and finish this animosity from the hearts of your critics. I have few suggestions:
    1- Please tell your current Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad sahib to RETRACT rather RENOUNCE and if possible DENOUNCE all the hate mongering statements of your Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his younger brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad. They are all published in your jamaat literature and available online on your official website. If you’re not aware of them, I can email to you. That stuff is too hot for this forum.

    2- If above is not possible then please tell your Khalifa 5 sahib to put to use the multi-million Euro funds of your jamaat, along with its international political contacts (especially in Europe and North America) on the trail of latest hot issue of religious discrimination in Pakistan, and GET EACH AND EVERY QADIANI-AHMADI, ESPECIALLY THE POOR ONES OUT OF PAKISTAN. Please tell your Khalifa 5, the Qadiani-Ahmadi victims blood will be on his hands, if he does not make every effort to protect their lives. Allah is watching. And like everyone Khalifa 5 will answer Allah. Please tell him he should get every Qadiani-Ahmadi out of Pakistan. He should NOT do what Qadiani jamaat Khalifa 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad did. He and his Udehdar, and organization actively discouraged Qadiani Ahmadis from leaving Pakistan, when it was realized if every Qadiani-Ahmadi leaves Pakistan, there will be no one left in Pakistan to become the next victim of injustice and to keep the Victimization of Qadiani-Ahmadis news HOT!

    3- If Khalifa 5 is not willing to do either of above two, then PLEASE tell him to move back to Pakistan to feel the heat, danger, injustice, suffocation like ordinary and poor Qadiani-Ahmadis. He cannot imagine that while sitting in safety and security of British police and Scotland Yard. Please tell him, Holy Prophet Muhammad pbuh stayed behind in Makkah when he sent his followers to Ethopia (Habsah). He suffered along their side in Shaib-e-Abi Talib. He was THE LAST PERSON (except Hazart Ali) to migrate to safety of Madina from Makkah. He made sure his followers are safe before he himself was. Unfortunately it has NOT been the history of Qadian Jamaat Khalifas i.e. 2, 4, and 5. Dear KJ, I know I’m asking too much from your Khalifa 5. I hope I’m not asking too much from his educated followers like you. Please standup for the POOR IN YOUR COMMUNITY. Please standup for that victim of Narowal. Please standup for the poor Qadiani Ahmadi victim who will be next. PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEASE…

    Regards,
    Your uncle
    Straight Shooter.

  16. Straight Shooter

    @Jamal mian:
    ““Dear even Holy prophet Muhammad pbuh stood up for funeral of dead Jew!!” “So? Did he read his janza? No.”

    So, i understand you put Non-Qadiani Muslims next to Jews, i.e. Kaffir.

    I hope my dear nephew KJ does not share your views. Other wise he might feel little awkward when i ‘kick the bucket’.

    I’m sure my newphew knows i offer janazah paryers qadian-ahmadi Muslims and i also offer prayers behind their imam. Although Qadiani-Ahmadis demand from Lahori-Ahmadis to do ba’it of Qadiani khalifa sahib if they want to marry a nice qadiani girl.

  17. Kashif Jahangiri

    Dear Chachajan (Straight Shooter),

    This thread was (and is) in relation to my article wherein I had pointed out the reason behind the state of the affairs of Pakistan today. In my article, I have mentioned that the reason behind the religious extremism in Pakistan is because the country has deviated from the principles on which it was created. It took the most ugly turn when the Government of Pakistan got itself involved in a religious matter, failing to discharge it’s obligation of being a neutral artiber.

    I don’t think either of your posts is relevant to the point raised in my article. I will not get involved in an argument with you which is not relevant to the matters discussed in the article. However, I am more than happy to discuss with you separately. I will send you an email on that. I will restrict this post to a couple of factual clarifications.

    I knew you were referring to the funeral prayer of Moulvi Muhammad Irfan Sahib. I was also referring to him in my posting above. He was the husband of my father’s real paternal aunt. At the time of his death, my father was in Saudi Arabia, so a question of his presence at the Janaza does not arise. I reconfirmed with my father that he was in Saudi Arabia when his uncle died. It was Dr. Aslam Jahangiri (now deceased), my father’s first cousin and the real son of Moulvi Muhammad Irfan sahib, who did not participate in the funeral prayer of his real father, as it was led by the wrong person. I can also tell you that Sheikh Munir Ahmad sahib would not have refused to lead the funeral prayer of the fellow, if given the opportunity. However, as mentioned, he would not follow the funeral prayer behind a non-Ahmadi, who curse Ahmadis or their Khalifas.

    Regarding your assetions and advices, once again, I don’t think these are relevant to the point made in my article above. We can however discuss this separately. My email will cover that to your satisfaction.

  18. Malick

    Excellent article to point out the cause of ever growing militancy in Pakistan where mullah has hijacked the state clearly against the wishes of the founder. They are working tirelessly to make it “Pleedistan” or “Na-Pakistan” after it somehow it came into being.
    May Allah bless this nation and lead them to true guidance and real Islam – Peaceful tolerant Islam presented by the Holy Prophet.

  19. Zeenath

    I still have to understand the difference between Ahmadi and Qadiani… will someone please elaborate?
    Thank you…:)

  20. Straight Shooter

    Dear KJ:
    “I knew you were referring to the funeral prayer of Moulvi Muhammad Irfan Sahib. I was also referring to him in my posting above. He was the husband of my father’s real paternal aunt. At the time of his death, my father was in Saudi Arabia, so a question of his presence at the Janaza does not arise.”

    I’m positive what I’m talking. Anyways, it’s my word against Paji (your respected father). I even remember Irfan sahib was buried in graveyard land donated by father in-law of my sister i.e. Alim Khan sahib. Dear I must say, I remember, I saw your respected father crying for the deceased. Honestly, it was more shocking for me to see your father so sad, but still not praying Janazah. Anyways.

    “It was Dr. Aslam Jahangiri (now deceased), my father’s first cousin and the real son of Moulvi Muhammad Irfan sahib, who did not participate in the funeral prayer of his real father, as it was led by the wrong person.”

    Even if I accept what you are saying, still I would say the person who led the funeral prayer must NOT be bad. As Lahori-Ahmadis including my father offered Irfan sahib Janazah. I was there. Dear, Qadiani-Ahmadis repeatedly miss chance where they can show respect for the deceased and they always fail to step forward with open arms to embrace their opponent/ critic. Where is that slogan: Love for all; hatred for none???

    “I can also tell you that Sheikh Munir Ahmad sahib would not have refused to lead the funeral prayer of the fellow, if given the opportunity.”

    Dear you are re-enforcing my point. Qadiani-Ahmadis expect General Muslims to accept them as Muslims, but they themselves are NOT willing to extend the courtesy.

    “However, as mentioned, he would not follow the funeral prayer behind a non-Ahmadi, who curse Ahmadis or their Khalifas.”

    I thought Qadiani-Ahmadis ORIGINAL STANCE is that non-Qadiani Muslims do NOT accept Hazart Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib (HMGA) as “nabi/ prophet” (Nauzubilah—God forbid) and as per teachings of Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his younger brother for a person to be accepted as Muslim by Qadiani-Ahmadis he/she has to hold belief that HMGA “nabi/ prophet” (Nauzubilah—God forbid). Now you are saying, “Ahmadis or their Khalifas”. ARE YOU CHANGING STANCE OF QADIANI JAMAAT??? Is it NEW strategy of your jamaat??? Dear you are reminding me of Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, when he moved from his ORIGINAL STANCE in Justice Munir Inquiry Commission!!!! I can not believe that!!! Frankly, I was NOT expecting this from you. May I remind you where were we when last time you reiterated your original stance??? Hint—in flying coach, on motor-way on route from Lahore to Islamabad, March 2002.

    MOREOVER, the funeral of younger brother of Mailk Khadam Gujrati sahib was led by current Ameer of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. You people know him well. He will be the last person to “curse” Qadiani-Ahmadis and their Khalifas.

    “Regarding your assetions and advices, once again, I don’t think these are relevant to the point made in my article above. We can however discuss this separately. My email will cover that to your satisfaction.”

    I think my assertions and advices are VERY RELEVANT if intention of Qadiani jamaat current Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad is to REGARD LIVES AND PROPERTIES OF QADIANI AHMADIS, ESPECIALLY POOR QADIANIS OF ANY VALUE!!! Current Khalifa sahib family and other Khandan members are NOT at the mercy of WOLVES, and HYENAS in villages like Narowal!!!

    Best Regards.

  21. Straight Shooter

    @Zeenath
    I can post the links but my post won’t go through.
    I will suggest you to do little google search and read it on website of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.

  22. Straight Shooter

    FOR ALL:

    I hope every reader is clear that in my posts in this thread, I’m NOT highlighting the differences between Qadiani-Ahmadi and Lahori-Ahmadi or the reasons for the split in 1914.

    My objective is to encourage people to make it possible to save honor, lives and properties of poor innocent Qadiani-Ahmadis. To achieve this goal I’m helping Qadiani-Ahmadi-muslim friends, relatives and nephews by making them RECALL WHAT WENT WRONG. Where their Khalifas, leaders and elders made mistakes. And how they can redress. How they can start corrections in their own homes. Always blaming their critics will NOT work. It is time to introspect. Other wise just the way after 1953 came 1974, then after that came 1984 and recently unfortunately 2010. I pray it does NOT repeat again.

    There is too much bad blood between Qadiani-Ahmadis and their General-Muslim opponents. It is general-Muslims who are killings Qadiani-Ahmadi-Muslims.

    Lahori-Ahmadis are NOT killing Qadiani-Ahmadis. Although because of Qadiani-ahmadis, Lahori-Ahmadis are also TENTED as bad as Qadiani-Ahmadis are. And some times Lahori-Ahmadis are also at the receiving end of WRATH of Mullah-Mafia.

  23. OMLK

    I don’t want to get into chacha-bhateeja ka muamla, but would like to make the following points.

    @ Straight Shooter

    1 – I don’t totally agree that if the Qadiani Ahamdis change some of their beliefs, the extermists Mullahs will cease in their opposition to them. The teachings of HMGA in general are what the Mullah fears, because the teachings cut out the Mullah from the Man-God equation. So nothing short of a complete condemnation of HMGA is going to satisfy the Mullah.

    2 – The Qadiani Ahmadi belief that HMGA was a Prophet and practice of calling other Muslims “Kafirs”, are points that the Mullahs just grab onto to incite the other Muslims against Ahmadis. If not these points, then some other would have been used. Its just that these points are easy to highlight. Esp. the Prophet issuse as it apprently flies in the face of the very basic Islamic belief that Prophet Muhamamd (SAWS) was the last of the Prophets.

    3 – Also the current Qadiani Ahmadi position regarding “Kufr” has qualified the meaning of “Kufr” so that it does not mean non-Muslims…just a “lesser” Muslims I guess. Although even callling other Muslims “lesser” Musims is not exactly palatable, but this makes them no differant from all sects of Islam who actually go a step further and call each other full “Kafirs.” (except, ofcourse, the Lahori Ahamdis who have a strictly n0n-sectarian agenda and simply say that all Kalimah professors are Muslims, rest is between them and Allah). Also note that since th Qadiani Ahamdi Caliph articulated the meaning of Kufr in 1954, the opposition o Ahamdis has not lessened one bit; supporting my earlier point that the reasons for opposition run much deeper.

    3 – The fact that the current position of Qadiani Ahamdi’s on calling other Muslims “Kafirs” may be a departure from their earlier stance of 1911, is not something which should be used to exhibit a smug, “I told you so” atitude; especially at a time when the Qadiani Ahmadis are hurting deeply as a community. The point is apparent, so lets just leave it at that. In any case such an atitude flirts with arrogance and self righteousness; two things which we as Muslims and Ahmadis (esp. Lahori Ahmadis) must avoid at all costs.

    @ Kashif Jahangiri

    Nice article!

  24. shiv

    @ syed
    Most of our Muslim ulema have amply demonstrated their inability to coexist peacefully with differing views even within ‘state-sanctioned’ Islam.

    I cannot disagree with the statement you have made on any count, but there is a “chicken or egg, which came first?” problem in Pakistan which I am learning was created for the well being of the Muslims in the Muslim majority provinces of British India.

    As far as I can tell the well being of Muslims cannot be ensured by creating a dispute with Islam. And any of your ulema will be sure to remind you that “The best among you is one who studies and teaches the Quran” The ulema do exactly that and who are you people to dispute that?

    Pakistan has painted itself into a corner. How do the people of a country wait till their asses are on fire and then start saying “Come on chaps. You can’t take Islam that seriously? It’s just not cricket!”

    In other words as long as Islam is “victorious over others” it was no skin off “moderate, liberal noses”. Like the liberal Brahmin lady who proudly announces her liberalism by saying “I don’t eat meat but my husband eats anything – even beef. Brahmins are not all fundamentalist vegetarian”, a whole lot of “moderate, liberal” Pakistanis saw no problem with Islamic fundamentalism because the fundamentalists were like the beef eating Brahmin husband, “an example of the variety our liberalism allows” while you moderates said – “Look at us. We are moderate. Muslims are not all fundamentalists”

    What happened to all that now that the Brahmin hubby is sacrificing and cooking his holy cow in his own backyard?

  25. skyview

    Revelation-based religions will always try to dominate, and that by using terror as the most “productive” tool. The very concept of a god who gives revelations is a terrorizing-totalitarian concept. It further postulates that some human being knows everything better and final and if you don’t listen to him then you are going to hell. And in order to prevent others from going to hell with you, you have to be silenced. This dangerous pathology is especially strong in case of this religion from Arabia. The followers of this religion are kept in a state of cowardice and obedience. This explains the huge amount of violence emanating from them. Violence, especially against dissidents, is a symptom of the cowardice of those who carry out these acts of violence.

  26. Sadia Hussain

    @ Kasif rightly pointed out we cannot separate religious extremism from terrorism, both complement each other. The rampant religious extremism in Pakistan gives a favorable ground for terrorist network to carry out their activities. Unless we eradicate extremism chances are that terrorism will cease to exist

  27. Tilsim

    @ shiv
    “How do the people of a country wait till their asses are on fire and then start saying “Come on chaps. You can’t take Islam that seriously? It’s just not cricket!””

    You taunt, goad, poke but trying to work out whether your style/content takes any of us any further forward. To sum up, the ‘moderates’ in Pakistan are a pathetic foolish lot in your view. Late to the party, as ever. Low intelligence. A source of great vicarious mirth and egotistic pleasure. No doubt, you are most interested in having a real man to man chat with clear thinking burly Pakistani fundamentalists who know what’s what. They have no doubt what is needed and you never did either. No doubt your clarity of thinking is what India really needs. Combine that with anger and we are really going places.

    Like your jokes though, they’re funny.

  28. Tilsim

    @ Shiv
    “As far as I can tell the well being of Muslims cannot be ensured by creating a dispute with Islam. ”

    I agree. However Pakistan’s elite has not had a dispute with Islam the way Iran’s former elite had under the Shah. As you can see from all the discussion, it has neglected to answer the challenge of fundamentalist Islam from it’s very inception. Taliban, extremism and terrorism are leading to a rethink. There is a lot of noise and some security type actions. To start, at least there is noise.

  29. P. Vengaayam

    Tilsim, if we focus on the message rather than the messenger, the question posed is a doozie and should be explored before it is too late.

    The question posed was:
    “As far as I can tell the well being of Muslims cannot be ensured by creating a dispute with Islam. And any of your ulema will be sure to remind you that “The best among you is one who studies and teaches the Quran” The ulema do exactly that and who are you people to dispute that?”

    This is quite the conundrum that Pakistan needs to resolve because the well-being of the Pakistani muslim has so far been tied rhetorically and politically to the “well being of islam”, especially given the rhetoric that Pakistan is the fortress of Islam that every Pakistani believes in.

    Since the ulema are the guardians of Islam in the continent, how is the average pakistani supposed to wrest the control of Islam from the Ulema without actually going against the tenets of the Quran, as interpreted by these very same troublemaking ulema ?

    It is very clear that the “liberal pakistani” (who supposedly does not view religion as the end-all of everything) has no means of influence or control over the ulema, who are beyond the reach of anyone else with their armed guards, enormous wealth, and their huge following of armed extremists.

    So the question that faces such pakistanis is, how is “liberal pakistan” going to convince a violent bunch of religious extremists — over whom they have little control or influence — to stop their violence? If these violent people justify their actions based on the Quran, then what is the recourse for liberal pakistanis other than the very Ulema who control religious discourse in Pakistan?

  30. Tilsim

    @ P. Vengaayam

    “Since the ulema are the guardians of Islam in the continent, how is the average pakistani supposed to wrest the control of Islam from the Ulema ”

    First of all permit me to correct you by saying that at least in Sunni Islam there is no formal concept of a clergy. However they exist, they are in the business of religion and because people are lazy to think for themselves or don’t have education, they take the Ulema’s lead. So they do have de facto leadership on matters of religion.

    I think from the outside it may look like all Ulema speak from one voice and they certainly at times become victims of group think but the reality is that they are by no means monolithic. As has been said here, the 1953 Munir Commission report established that they could not even agree on the definition of a muslim. However what has been problematic is that Pakistanis (and Muslims in general) with education and those with liberal inclinations totally disengaged from religion. As a result there are too few Ulema that carry forward the voice of reason and moderation.

    It is the responsibility of Pakistanis, our media, our political leadership, our academics to think about how best to foster religious leadership and to provide a secure environment and give a platform to the voices of those Ulema who are providing ample proofs from the Quran and the Hadith that extremism, Jihadi violence etc are evils. For example Dr Tahir Ul Qadri wrote a huge fatwa against Terrorism. His arguments need to be projected and conveyed to the public. We need disciples of people like him talking in every neighbourhood. There are many other issues nd orthodoxies to be taken up. What is taught in madrassas has to be looked into. The Friday sermon should be free from politics and hate speech. The State and Pakistanis have a role to play here if they don’t want to continue on the current trajectory.

    Lastly, I do accept that in an atmosphere of extreme violence and intimidation and no protection from the State, such a challenge to extremist mullahs and their private armies is not possible. Ultimately it is for our political parties, the army, the security apparatus and opinion formers (the media, academics and intellectuals) to decide whether enough is enough. I see movement.

  31. Tilsim

    “….especially given the rhetoric that Pakistan is the fortress of Islam that every Pakistani believes in”

    You say ‘every Pakistani’. I hope that is a poetic exagerration. I for one never believed in this fortress nonsense. I don’t think of the message of my religion has anything to do with militarism – the very opposite. I am incensed that it’s ethos in Pakistan is being perverted by evil minds into a nihilistic cult in the quest for reverting to some mythical purity. This land and India were home to so many Sufi saints – they understood the essence of the religion; all religions.

  32. bciv

    @OMLK

    you’re right. the mullahs of course know the difference between Qadiani and Lahori Ahmadis very well. the 2nd Amendment does not mention just treating MGAQ as a “prophet”, but also considering him a “religious reformer”. now if one, unlike even the lahori ahmadis, were to believe that MGAQ was a religious reformer without believing him to be a mamoor minallah or to have experienced any kind of revelation (ilhaam), he/she could still be claimed to be non-muslims under the 2nd Amendment!

    the mullahs, and many other non-ahmadi muslims, have an issue with divine appointment and ‘revelation’ too. other muslim sects have problems between themselves too of course. the mullah is a political animal, albeit a rather crude one. they realised that ahmadis were a smaller minority than others they might have liked to go for. also, they were not a sub-sect of a larger sect either (that is why mullahs didn’t go for ismailis and one or two other sub-ects of shia’ism, or even for one another in a similar way as they did for ahmadis – treating the law as their handmaiden).

    the wrong is not a religious or theological one and, therefore, there can never be a theological remedy for it. there is not a single theological position one can take without ‘offending’ this religion/sect/sub-sect or that. mullahs win. the wrong is of the state and its law making religion its business and taking sides with one theological position against another. we are seeing the results of the state committing that unforgivable crime.

    straight shooter is suggesting some kind of variant of the same crime, ie a theological position is to be changed under threat and experience of persecution in order to appease the persecutors, in the hope that things will improve. of ourse, there is the obvious vested interest he has in this as someone who thinks he is a victim of ‘mistaken identity’ (which, as per the wording of the 2nd Amendment, he is not). his intentions may well be purer than pure, but the appearance of this conflict of interest when added to his plea for the persecuted to try and appease their tormentors, leaves little that you could respect his point of view or modus operandi for.

  33. Straight Shooter

    Dear OMLK:

    You have weight in your points. But I say there has to be some STARTING POINT for the NEW BEGINNING, other wise just complaining about 2nd constitutional amendment and pointing out dishonesty of mullah-mafia, by Qadianis, is NOT going to solve the problem. And Qadianis, especially POOR QADIANIS will keep on getting butchered. The loss of lives and properties will continue at least until the time Pakistan retains its current geographical boundaries and 1973 constitution with 2nd amendment.

    I personally think thing problems really started in 1914 at time of split when Qadiani Khalifa 2 mirza mahmud Ahmad (QK2) took the helm of Qadiani-Jamaat. Although it is true seed of prophet hood of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib (HMGA) was planted by QK2 in 1911. But from 1914 he started watering the nascent idea, of NEW prophethood, to help it flourish and gain strong roots. This tree of NEW prophet hood is already 100 years old. If Qadianis start correcting the WRONG DONE BY THEM in their own home, problem will finish in maximum of next 100 years, other wise it will take longer. As you said even if Qadianis openly and loudly reject idea of NEW prophethood of HMGA still opposition by Mullah-Mafia will NOT evaporate in overnight. It is also true dishonest mullah-mafia will look for some other excuse, but opposition will definitely reduce to a great degree. If you look at history of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, you will notice they did NOT face same kind of opposition from Mulla-Mafia in 1914 to early 1950s as they face today, especially after 1974. If you look before 1914, you will notice by 1908 when HMGA passed away opposition to him had already reduced to a great extent, and remaining was gone by 1914 till the end of life of Maulana Noor Ud Din, when he was at the helm of Ahmadiyya Movement of HMGA.

    A lady can be a pregnant or NOT pregnant. There is NO such thing where a physician can diagnose a lady as “half-pregnant”. So, there is NO gray area. There is no such thing as “half-Muslim” or “lesser-Muslim” or its opposite “half-Kaffir” or “lesser-Kaffir”.

    My heart goes out for Qadianis who lost their lives on May 28. I consider them SHAHEEDS. And I pray may Allah SWT grant their survivors patience. At the same time, I also don’t want the bloody Friday incident to repeat. To prevent any future repetition qadianis have to start it from some where. They can start from their home.
    They should openly and loudly say that:
    Holy Prophet Muhmmad was the LAST prophet.
    It is NOT obligatory for a Muslim to believe in HMGA.
    Qadianis are allowed to pray behind non-Qadiani Muslims.
    Qadianis are allowed to pray janazah of non-Qadiani-Muslims.
    Qadianis are allowed to marry their daughters and sons to non-Qadiani-Muslims.

    I think such words from the mouth of current Qadiani Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad will go a long way. And they will play a great role in saving lives and properties of qadianis living in Pakistan.

  34. Kashif Jahangiri

    Dear Chacha (Straight Shooter)

    I thought we had agreed to not do any controversial posts here!

  35. Peria V.

    Tilsim:”Ultimately it is for our political parties, the army, the security apparatus and opinion formers (the media, academics and intellectuals) to decide whether enough is enough. I see movement.”

    Tilsim, That is a optimistic view. Let me just point out that these media, academics and intellectuals are fighting a well-armed people stuck in dogma (so reasoning is not going to work with them) who are keen on violence, so unless the media, academics, and intellectuals are going to pick up the gun, their words will have no effect on this crowd. The only way to determine there is movement is if the Pakistani establishment takes up its responsibility and removes weapons from the hands of civilians. Maybe you are optimistic about this too, but I am sorry to say I am not.

  36. P. Vengaayam

    If someone like straight shooter speaks the truth about Pakistan, he is being “controversial”? How do Pakistanis hope to fix their internal problem with this kind of denial attitude?

    I will note that Pakistan has done nothing about the Mumbai terrorist attacks and the Pakistani establishment has the audacity to state that they want to “be friends with India” even as they send terrorists into India as recently as yesterday. Pakistanis must think Indians are pretty stupid to take such vacuous doubletalk seriously, which is a sad commentary.

  37. shiv

    @Tilsim
    You taunt, goad, poke but trying to work out whether your style/content takes any of us any further forward. To sum up, the ‘moderates’ in Pakistan are a pathetic foolish lot in your view. Late to the party, as ever.

    In fact what I am talking about maybe worse than a taunt.

    The liberals of Pakistan have to carve out a political space for themselves in Pakistan in an environment where they are allowed to exist only within boundaries set by the radicals/conservatives.

    I had read a very interesting commentary by some American on a similar phenomenon in the US which appears (or likes to appear) as a very liberal society – but at its core has a hardened, almost criminal WASP dominated establishment that seeks unmitigated power and wealth.

    Islam – or what I have read of it, is a fantastic sociological and psychological treatise. Islamic literature susses out human behavior to a T. Most people who develop a blind hate for Islam (or even a blind love) fail to see this. One set are too filled with hate to see what is great, and he other set are too filled with love to see how the behavior mandated by Islam has other parallels and can be recognised and predicted, and played with. I suspect most ulema are rational enough to see how to “use” Islam to bend sheeple. Any terminological errors in the following passage are mine.

    But I digress. Long long ago Islamists realised that they require a “periphery”, “a front” of moderates to cover up a core society of Islamists who could possibly be violent and bigoted. The moderates would be the “front” that is shown to the world so that the core would not be disturbed.

    I am not sure how many people might recognize the structure of a “micelle” – that is formed by oil droplets in water in the presence of soap. The soap molecules have one side that “likes” oil and that side ends up facing the oil drop and the side of the soap molecule that “likes” water faces the water on the other side. In this way a layer of soap molecules insulate the core oil drop from the water outside.

    Islamists in an Islamic society allow a periphery of moderation that can be seen by kafirs. This assists in maintaining a degree of peace in society and reduces conflict with kafirs. It is particularly essential in a kafir dominant society that the moderate periphery is robust. Islamists provide an excuse for the moderates and say that “taqiya” is allowed.

    But when the society becomes Muslim dominant, with very few kafirs to worry about the ulema/core islamists might, for some reason, choose to crack down on the now unnecessary “moderate periphery” and start calling them “munafiq”. Taqiya is no longer necessary.

    This puts “moderates” in an Islamic society in a bind. Either they bend to the dictates of the core Islamists or suffer the consequences. I see Pakistani liberals as having been the moderate periphery that protected the core for years. But now that the core feels it is under threat within Pakistan, they are going to get tough on the liberals.

    It is not clear to me how Pakistani liberals can get past this. The fact that the Pakistan army, the most powerful institution was actually “moderate” and considered secular (not by Indians!) has protected the moderates and liberals in Pakistan. But it is not clear (to me) how deep the moderation goes in the Pakistan army.

    Two additional complications exist. Or perhaps one additional complication.

    The US recognises that the last few “moderates” with any power in Pakistan are in the army and they are hell bent on keeping that part of the Army supported.

    India is one threat that can damage the Pakistani army enough to let the fundamentalists gain power. That is exactly what some Islamists seek to do in Pakistan. In that sense the US and India are at cross purposes here. But not necessarily so.

    I am unable to make a uniformly bright prognosis for Pakistani liberalism. I believe its health hinges on the survival of a force with serious power – i.e moderate factions of the army, and by bandwagoning with the US as well as making peace with India. But there is one possibility – and that is to reach out politically and economically to the vast masses of Pakistan – millions of people whom Pakistanis have traditionally never talked about in their eagerness to tell the world about how things are in India.

    Has anybody read the latest assessment of education in Pakistan from Brookings? A 60 page pdf entitled “Beyond Madrasas assessing the links between education and militancy in Pakistan”

  38. Girish

    The Brookings paper is interesting, but makes points that are quite well known (perhaps not to commentators in the West who have linked all militancy to Madrassas alone). The report makes the point that Madrassas have not grown to fill the gap in provision of public education, that parents don’t necessarily send their kids to Madrassas only as a last resort and that apart from a few Madrassas that strongly advocate militancy, the link between Madrassas and militancy is not empirically well-established.

    The source of the problem is elsewhere – a state apparatus (with the military leading the change) that has decided that it is well-served domestically and internationally by promoting militancy and terrorism. The issues with the educational sector, whether in public schools or in Madrassas are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

  39. Straight Shooter

    My dear Kashif:

    “Dear Chacha (Straight Shooter)
    I thought we had agreed to not do any controversial posts here!”

    Dear, i don’t know which post are you referring.

    Dear i hope you are not calling my following comment i posted earlier in reply to OMLK, as controversial:
    [Quote]
    My heart goes out for Qadianis who lost their lives on May 28. I consider them SHAHEEDS. And I pray may Allah SWT grant their survivors patience. At the same time, I also don’t want the bloody Friday incident to repeat. To prevent any future repetition qadianis have to start it from some where. They can start from their home.
    They should openly and loudly say that:
    Holy Prophet Muhmmad was the LAST prophet.
    It is NOT obligatory for a Muslim to believe in HMGA.
    Qadianis are allowed to pray behind non-Qadiani Muslims.
    Qadianis are allowed to pray janazah of non-Qadiani-Muslims.
    Qadianis are allowed to marry their daughters and sons to non-Qadiani-Muslims.

    I think such words from the mouth of current Qadiani Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad will go a long way. And they will play a great role in saving lives and properties of qadianis living in Pakistan.
    [Unquote]

    Dear please note:
    I have used word ‘Qadianis’ in this thread, for ‘member of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, the Qadian faction’
    And i use word ‘Lahoris’ for ‘members of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement of Lahore faction’.
    I did NOT use word qadiani or lahori in derogatory sense. Just for bravity.
    Just the way ‘Yankee’ is accepted for ‘citizens of the USA’.

  40. maulabus

    @ straight shooter you wrote and i qoute
    “They should openly and loudly say that:
    Holy Prophet Muhmmad was the LAST prophet.”
    Now listen We beleive that
    Holy Prophet Muhmmad was the LAST prophet. I Repeat it loudly and cleraly and i cannot be Ahmadi without having beleive on it.
    you wrote that
    “Qadianis are allowed to pray behind non-Qadiani Muslims.
    Qadianis are allowed to pray janazah of non-Qadiani-Muslims..”
    Ahmadi will never say any numaz behind any non Ahmadi Mullah. This is decided. but we are allowed to say non Ahmadis janaza and this is in our practice. The only condition is this that there should be Ahmadi Imam.

    For more detail you have to listen the Speech of our 5 Caliph of Germany jalsa- it is available on MTA.TV

  41. Straight Talker

    @maulabus:

    can you also please also say:
    “It is NOT obligatory for a Muslim to believe in HMGA.”

    Thanks for clarifying: “Ahmadi [qadiani] will never say any numaz behind any non Ahmadi [non-qadiani] Mullah. This is decided.”

    Dear KJ, i make exception here because qadiani asked me a direct question. Otherwise i would have not posted here, because of your wish.

  42. maulabus

    @straighshooter wrote

    “can you also please also say:
    “It is NOT obligatory for a Muslim to believe in HMGA.”

    Dear Straight sahib— do you have any believe in Hazrat Mohammad SAW– I think this is your gray area—- sorry for this (you are not obeying all orders of Huzur SAW)
    Hazrat Mohammad SAW ordered every muslim that Imam Mehdi Will come and he will kill the Khanzir and Broke the Cross— and when you found his ERA and meet him say may SALAM- now tell me If this is true then what you will say to This IMAM MAHDI (kafir– Mulhid– Dajal naoozo billah) —- if believe on IMAM MAHDI is not obligatory for every Muslim then tell me what was the need of this Azeem Personality to come.

  43. Straight Talker

    @maulabus:
    By your comment i gather you are saying, if some one does NOT believe in Imam Mahdi in your case Mirza Ji born to Chirag Bibi in Qadian, then he is NOT a Muslim.

    I will suggest you to go and say this in a Lal Masjid, islamabad. I’m sure some one e.g. Kashifiat can do the favour of introducing to Mulla-Imam of that Mosque.

    MaulaBus i suggest you to take the next bus going to Lal Masjid, islamabad. Please do NOT hesitate in performing your duty of “tabligh”

  44. Straight Talker

    Erratum..
    From your comment i gather…

  45. maulabus

    @straight talker

    Thanks for your suggestion

    مسلمانوں کو آپ جیسا نادان دوست مل جانے کے بعد کسی دشمن کی ضرورت نہیں ہے۔

  46. MusaJ

    Beautiful! Alfred Whitehead, Bertrand Whitehead took 10 years to rigorously define field of Logic, out of Set”s” of Greek Axioms, and “Unique” Divine Truths; in Principia Mathematica. Only to be negated by Godel’s proof that any argument proven from within a Doctrine or System is always incomplete! Here Chacha Bhatija are evolving much better:) Meanwhile Don’t forget to thank the forum the coachman. Being a student of Prof. Salam will try to address these issues in his spirit with few minutes of your time. Thanks. Keeping the Divinity of the Relegion or relegions as a hope to solving realy complex problems as Higgs Bosons and what gives matter its mass, here are a few words. Several issues… An earlier given example of micelle formation was nice and endourses Islam as an agent of removal of oil and dirt with polar soap molecules is a good society with no clergy suppression, it does create dissent but avoids genocide as Pope’s inquisitions, slavery/colonization/outcasting of half the world population based on color or race, canibalistic crusades, Natzi or Gullage or Nanking rape of godless worlds… If only then Col. Murtaza had whipped Gen Kiyani’s ass more when I turned him in for stealing cigarettes he would be smoking less and protecting people more today… Though not an Ahmedi myself I invite all Ahmedi (or non-violent no-alcoholic no-smoker Non-Ahmedi) to come live with me free in US at my homes and farm and go to schools in the bay area from Northwestern Polytechnic University, Stanford, where I have taught or CSUEB Cal State Univ East Bay, UC Berkeley within yards from one of our estate homes. All you need to do is improve on what you already are doing communicating through the use of technology. Ask and I can try to give you a quick walk through what it takes to be a scientist, a doctor, a financier, derivative option pricing broker, snowboarder from Ayubia, Lake Tahoe, hiker from Kafaristan, K2, Denali, Yosemite, or Glaciers, Bike Mamoth. All you have to do is apply to these schools and get admissions.
    If you like silicon valley work see google my inventions on google patents and see if you like the work. Being the oldest surviving Uncle, a few years older, never the less senior in Pushtun code.
    All Finance has one simple question given a dollar and hundred percent interest rate what is the max money you can make in a year. Consider withdrawing the depositing oftern to increase your return. This was solved four thousand years ago in Babylon we know from clay tablests. The answer is (2.7AndrewJacksonAndresJackson)
    Remember to thank the coachman. Love all, hate none.
    -musa