Objectives Resolution And Secularism 2

  Part 2 (Aaj Kal) proves that Mr. Jinnah stood unambiguously and clearly for a secular state-YLH

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51 responses to “Objectives Resolution And Secularism 2

  1. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    Can you translate these two articles for the benefit of us kaffiroons?

    Thanks in advance.

    Regards

  2. yasserlatifhamdani

    The author has written close to 25 of these… so I can’t translate … suffice to say most of this I have already written in English.

    There are new gems ofcourse… Indian High Commissioner Sri Prikasa challenges Jinnah by asking him why Jinnah referred to an Islamic state in his radio address …
    Jinnah responds angrily… asking him to show him exactly where…

    Sri Prikasa goes back … reads the transcript, hears the recording and finds no reference to an Islamic state.

  3. Zulfiqar Haider

    This is an interesting read and will help people in understanding the real meaning of Pakistan. Quaid-e-Azam based the ideology of Pakistan on Islamic principles but never wanted Mullahs to participate in politics. We can revive the real traditions of our culture based on secularism and justice for all.

  4. Mansoor Khalid

    Pakistan was always proposed as a secular state by the founder and the Alma Iqbal. The speeches by Jinnah and the poems by Iqbal are a clear indicator for this. The extremist ideology has made Pakistan bleed severely in the last decade. To move forward, we must promote liberal and dynamic ideologies among our nation.

  5. silk router

    To ylh

    re.: Sri Prakas incidence and similar stories.

    But will it convince the ones who believe in the kuran and its finalism and finalist-absolutist intentions and declarations?

    For the wahhabis even Mohammad plays no important role – what to speak of Mohammad A J.

    No matter how much you play up Jinnah – his time is gone. The wahhabi says: “I don’t care a damn about this Jinnah man. Now Pakistan is islamic and we will possess it, defend it and make it more wahhabi-islamic with our violence, terror and ruthlessness. The kuran sets/enforces the goals and inspires/blesses the methods.”

  6. silk router

    Jinnah was and is no match for the absolutist, finalist ideology of the kuran. Jinnah did not realize what tiger he was trying to ride as he jumped on to the Pakistan band-wagon. He himself had earlier warned M K Gandhi about this khilafat thing and then he himself commited a graver error (due to personal megalomania? – a megalomania even greater than the one displayed by “Mahatma” Gandhi).

    apres moi la deluge!

    An absolutist-finalist ideology cannot be moderate or secular or anthropocentric/democratic or tolerant. Final revelation from the one-and-only god – no one can ever defeat or tame the arrogance and the death-wishes that result from it.

    An absolutist-finalist ideology uses human beings – but never allows itself to be used by them. Jinnah did not know this. He was used.

  7. Jinnah’s disowning of his daughter for her marrying a non-Muslim is a clear indication of his conviction in Islamic values and laws

  8. ylh

    “Admin”

    That is by far the weakest argument in those islam-pasand types who lie about the Quiad.

    No it doesn’t. First of all he did not “disown” his daughter. He was displeased with her but they reconciled.

    Secondly it does not show that Jinnah wanted to impose Islamic law on anyone. Jinnah as a Khoja Shia Mahomadden was obviously against his daughter marrying out of the faith since till 1949… mixed marriages required renunciation of the faith.

    Interestingly Jinnah worked all his life for mixed marriages legislation …so how does your argument follow. I’ll gladly quote a reference for it.
    Gandhi was upset about his son’s conversion to Islam btw …and Nehru had problems with Indira’s marriage to Feroz…does that mean India should be a Hindu Rashtra.

    By your logic no parsi is a secularist because well Parsis oppose inter-faith marriages.

    These are personal choices …not public policy.

  9. pHaze

    It is true that Gandhi was upset when his son converted to Islam. But Gandhiji too was kind of ambiguous in expressing his views about Islam. I think later Harilal converted back to Hinduism.

  10. IWP

    @YLH:

    If Jinnah worked all his life for mixed marriages legislation, would you mind enlightening me as to why he was ‘displeased’ by the same very act of his daughter?

    Your Nehru/Indra/Parsi argument fails to convince because Hinduism and Parsism are merely religions, different from Islam which does describes the form of government in a Muslim majority territory.

    On a personal note, I would like to know if you are not an Islam-pasand.

    – “Admin”

  11. ylh

    He was displeased because it meant that his daughter would have to renounce Islam in order to marry Neville… It was only after Jinnah’s Mixed marriages bill which had originally been floated in 1913 was finally passed in 1949 that Indians were allowed inter-faith marriage without the condition of renunciation.
    But in any event it has no bearing on the facts mentioned above.

  12. Nusrat Pasha

    @ silk router

    To quote you: “….the absolutist, finalist ideology of the kuran….”

    The Holy Quran aims at inculcating an attitude of tolerance, accommodation and acceptance with complete and absolute religious freedom for all. The following references deserve attention:

    1: ” There is NO coercion in matters of religion. ” (2:256 )

    2: ” Whoever chooses to believe LET him believe and whoever chooses to disbelieve LET him disbelieve ” (18:29)

    3: ” Your religion is for you and my religion is for me ” (109:6)

  13. Jamal_Alam

    The New Age Islam web site has translated at least some of these articles.

    Here is one; http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamUrduSection_1.aspx?ArticleID=2719

  14. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    I am greatest admirer of Mr Jinnah. In the madrassa that gave to me the Education (in Kochi, Kerala) we are calling him Maualana Jinnah. Simply to show the honour and the Respect.

    It was Maulana Jinnah who prepared for Mussalmans of India (= Hindu land) a true Fatherland where they can live with Sharia. But it is a big tragedy that happened for the Mussalmans of India of Hindus. They have not got the land.

    SO how we poor Mussalmans of India can live. This is question for the Pakistan brothers. You have an Islamic land. But we? Nothing, only Hindus who are applying only the bad kufr ideas.

  15. ylh

    Mr. Pannikkaran,

    This has to be satire.

    But if by some offchance you are for real … Jinnah said “don’t call me a maulana, I am your political leader not a religious one.

  16. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    Respected Mr Yasser Hamdani

    How without a land can Mussalmans of India live their life? This is the aswer we will need. India is kufr. Sharia is only for Mussalmans and that is not the real Sharia. Full Sharia is for whole of the society. That is not there in India. That is why we say it is kufr.

    How can the Pakistan brothers help to get a Islam land in India? This is the biggest answer we need now.

    Maulana Jinnah was truly greatest Muslim leader. You are right. But we Mussalmans of India suffering with kufr and Pakistan is not giving help to get an Islam land here. This is the tragedy.

  17. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    Mr Respected Yasser

    I am sad when you say Maulana Jinnah is not Maulana. For the simple Mussalmans of Kochi and India he is our Maulana.

    Without an Islam land the Mussalmans live a miserable life. You have to come and see that. In Pakistan you are happy but where is thought for the Mussalmans of India?

    Without full Sharia Islam life is not there. OUr Muslim women may wear Islam dress, covaring everything but what about the Hindu women and girls? They are showing everthing. This is a very bad dificulty without the real Sharia.

  18. IWP

    @YLH:

    If, according to you, Mr. Jinnah was displeased at his daughter for the possibility her renouncing Islam on marrying a non-Muslim, would he have been pleased for all the mix marriages in which Muslim men or Muslim women would renounce Islam?

    I repeat my comment for the new reader: “Jinnah’s disowning of his daughter for her marrying a non-Muslim is a clear indication of his conviction in Islamic values and laws.”

    After branding me an ‘Islam-pasand’, you failed to answer me about you not being an Islam-pasand. Mind clarifying that a bit?

  19. ylh

    Once again do you think Jinnah gave a damn about his daughter’s spiritual well being. His daughter’s renunciation of faith would put the Sole Spokesman of Muslims in a tight spot.

    The law that Jinnah had fought for was to allow mixed marriages without renouncing one’s faith.

    In any event Jinnah’s alleged opposition to his daughter’s marriage is no counter-argument by any stretch of imagination as it amounts to a personal not a public choice. Did Jinnah forcibly try to stop his daughter’s marriage? The answer is no.

  20. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    Silk Router

    Your are just same as Hindus. Where is the Respect for Islam and Pakistan?

    Is India Secular? It is the very big talk of Hindus only. We Mussalmans in India are not seeing it.
    When Mussalman’s wifes covaring everything with Islam clothes but the Hindu girls and women showing everything, there is not real Sharia. India is not Secular. That is for show only. Where is the full Sharia for everyone? NOT here.

    You are not at all fair. Mussalmans are 17 % of India, so why not fair they get an Islam land in India of 17 %? That is only just. Who will deny?

    You have your Hindu (=kufr) land, we need our Islams land. Is it so wrong?

  21. ylh

    The reason I say Jinnah didn’t give a damn about his daughter’s spiritual weLl being is in terms of organized religion ofcourse. It is well known that Jinnah brought Dina up completely irreligious …and she was culturally completely British with not even a tinge of Muslimness …certainly not the cultural and religious aspects of the faith.

  22. ylh

    Abdullah now I am convinced you are a BJP type posing as an Indian Muslim.

    Still if you are for real, how many clean shaven anglicized pork-eating whisky drinking Maulanas do you know?

  23. vajra

    @YLH

    “Anything you can do, we can do better.”

    Our Hindu bigots are more bigoted than your Hindu bigots.

    Our Muslim idiots are greater Muslim idiots than your Muslim idiots.

    Prepare to be assimilated.😉

  24. IWP

    @YLH:

    I do think Jinnah gave a “heed” to his daughter’s spiritual well being, reason being his action mentioned by me. Whether that was a personal or a public choice is debatable because neither your nor I know precisely what was cooking up in his brain.

    On a separate note: Since he did not forcibly stop his daughter from the marriage, it also displays his belief in moderation in Islam. The honour-killings and honour-beatings marring the image of Islam have never been preached by this peaceful religion. It is ignorance of Islamic law that forces people doing such things.

    Religions in this age have gone stereotyped. Please understand that Mullahs are not Islam. The same way sects like Opus Dei are not the true Christianity. We need to listen to what a religion says, not what some of its misguided followers say.

  25. Prasad

    I was keenly following Hazrat Abdullah and his mighty intelligence. I am not sure why is he gazing at Hindu women at all!!! Simple dude just ignore them and enjoy your practices.

    Now discussing your divinely intelligent view of giving 17% away to practice your puritanical ideas, you may revive ghosts of Ganpat and his fear on further partition!

  26. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    Mr ylh (same as Mr Yasser?)

    I don’t know answer to a question like this. I am simple man from a Kochi madrassa. That is where I learned my Education. Please have a Respect for a humble Mussalman.

    What is this the whisky and pork for Maulanas! It is forbidden in Islam. I am surprised you talk like that. Only Hindus (= kufr) speaking like that here.

    Mr Respected Jinnah we love. He is greatest. So we say: Maulana Sahib.

  27. Prasad

    Abdullah, kindly do spare animals, birds and weeds in your puritanical kingdom.

  28. Prasad

    Abdullah = mighty brains + simple + Kochi madarsa,

    Kindly do spare YLH, he seems to be a rational man trying to get a factual response.

  29. ylh

    Like I pointed out …it was a matter of political inconvenience and there were some other issues as well.

    You may give me some evidence for your claim about Jinnah paying heed to the spiritual well being of his daughter, could you perhaps point out what religious education did Jinnah impart on Dina in her formative years? Did Dina read the Quran? Did she go for prayers? Did she celebrate Eid?
    The only picture we have is of a carefree, British public school girl in skirts standing Jinnah’s Bentley, or playing with the dogs … On the dinner table.

    But let us assume that it was a case of Islamic moderation…well the same Islamic moderation – if you wish to call it that- also was responsible for Jinnah’s belief that state should remain completely impartial to a person’s faith.

  30. ylh

    Last post to IWP.

  31. Prasad

    Divine Hazrat Abdullah,

    You comment
    “Mr ylh (same as Mr Yasser?)”

    Ofcourse he is. You cannot go wrong. Can you?

  32. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    Mr Prasad.

    There is no Worry.

    We are respecting everything. Only the attacks, attacks, attacks on Pakistan and Islam, we stop. That is not good.

    Mr Prasad, it is a sad life for Mussalmans in India. Too sad. Mr Nehru promised: It will be fully Secular. It will be fully Sharia. We have not got it. We have to see Hindu girls showing even full belly.

    It is hurting the Mussalmans.

  33. Prasad

    Sir Abdullah,

    For this great interpretation and lecture, I ( lowly soul from the kufr land) hereby recommend a PhD to your divine intelligence.

    Dr Abdullah ( err, guys there is another one in Kufr land which reacts much faster and in all directions like our divine Abdullah)

  34. vajra

    @Prasad

    Don’t get conned. This is an old troll ‘doing the police in different voices’. He thinks a Kerala Muslim speaks in butler English, and is doing his best imitation of that, in the hope of a little cheap applause. Cheap is the defining word for this particular troll.

  35. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    Mr Vajra

    I only point to what I said.

    I am simple man from a Kochi madrassa. That is where I learned my Education. Please have a Respect for a humble Mussalman.

    In Kochi we know India talk about Secularism is bogus only. It is what I write.

  36. pHaze

    I’m convinced now that Abdullah Pannikkaran is some non-muslim who has a very dark sense of humor.

  37. Abdullah Pannikkaran

    I am quitting the site anyway.

    Peace to all.

  38. Prasad

    @ Vajra,

    I dont think this guy was conning. He was genuinely displaying his training and thoughts about the ‘illusive puritanical world’ shared by his mentors in his madarsa. He is frustrated that this world is not being achieved on ground.

    It is indeed very worrying/alarming to see what these folks ( Abdullah kinds) study in ‘simple madarsa’ in hinterlands….completely twisted training. When such souls see that society in general doesnot subscribe to their ideas, they get disillusioned, form groups and start using destructive means to achieve their objectives…It becomes a bigger game when some bigger terror syndicates see them as a pawn in their larger game plan and orient them towards hatred of everything that is against their ‘pure’ concepts. Part of Indian Mujahideen cadre is definitely a product of this manifestation.

    I see this growing very rampantly in the coastal belts ( Kerala & Karnataka) of Bhatkal, Mangalore, Udipi and Kasargod. Growth of BJP in these belts is not coincidental. It is a reaction

  39. stuka

    Phaze / Admin

    Kya bewaqoof point nikaala hai. I don’t want any women from my family marrying Muslims but I eat beef. Does that make me secular or Hindutvawadi?

  40. stuka

    Abdullah Pannikaran is “bhartiya musulmaan”

  41. B. Civilian

    @Vajra

    Prasad wants to be conned… desperately.

    @Prasad

    I could tell you that Abdullah Pannikar and Ganpat Ram have the same ip address, but let me disappoint you with something more entertaining. This is from the Embracing Identity thread:

    vajra
    April 21, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    “@Abdullah Panikkaran

    I shall be happy to give you the e-mail address of a superior intellect who can deliberate on these matters with you with greater calibre and capacity than I can.

    He is a highly educated person, and pursues three careers in parallel.

    He is (or has been) a journalist, and speaks fluently about Arabs he has known who despise Pakistanis for trying too hard to please Arabs.

    He is a specialist medical practitioner in the UK, who knows exactly how people in Canada feel about Islam and Muslims, without stirring from his location. That shows that he is a direct descendant of Mycroft Holmes and his London address therefore is the Diogenes Club.

    He is also in charge of information systems at the distinguished institution to which he belongs, and which made the mistake of trusting him with its IT resources, which therefore allows him to pursue his jehad without let or hindrance, or without the irksome bondage of ethics or e-mail protocol.

    You will enjoy debating with him; he has one thing to say and says it in a thousand different ways. Unfortunately, he is what my Syrian Christian friends term a ‘pattar’, and you may occasionally find his mixture of whining sycophancy and venomous hostility hard to take (think Gollum bred to Uriah Heep).

    Let me know when you want the introduction. It will be an alliance made in heaven.”

    Abdullah Pannikkaran
    April 21, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    “Vjara:

    If I have offended you or anyone, peace.

    OK?”

  42. vajra

    @Prasad.

    The identity of ‘Abdullah Panikkaran’ is beyond doubt; a pity, because he was the only readable one among the revisionist bigots infesting this site.

    You mentioned the political-sociological situation along the Kerala-Karnataka border. I am an adoptive citizen of Karnataka (not the genuine article like Luq), and have worked extensively in North Kerala, most recently in 2007-08. The area is a cauldron of rival factions, not just fundamentalist Hindus and fundamentalist Muslims, but CPM vs. Congress, CPM vs. BJP (currently the most violent conflict in North Kerala), Christians vs. Hindus, Christians vs. Muslims, the lot. In this mess, it is difficult and dangerously tendentious to say who started what.

    In most historical controversies, each side to a controversy (assuming two sides only for the sake of the argument; there have been known to be more) tries to assign an early date to a significant event. For instance, in the Franco-German rivalry which overshadowed world affairs until quite recently, we could start with the Great War of 1914-18; that is what the Germans would like. The French preferred to take that back to the Franco-Prussian War of 1871. The Germans retaliated with their memories of the assault on the Holy Roman Empire of Napoleon I. They also pointed out French interference during the Bourbon years, in a large number of wars and political interventions, too many to mention. The French then accuse the Germans of bad faith during the slow break-up of the Carolingian middle kingdoms, what used to be Lotharingia. This can go on as long as the adversaries have breath and patience, and a source of income that doesn’t depend on any serious work being done.

    The situation in Kerala-Kasargod-Konkan is the same. It depends on where you want to start the ball rolling. You have mentioned the muscular and aggressive Muslim activity in the Bekal belt (presumably that is what you are referring to). Have you considered the dangerous and irresponsible role of the Ashta Maths, particularly the role of the Pejawar Swami, Uma Bharati’s guru? What provoked this? There was no prior inter-religious hostility, unless, another damning fact, you count the BJP and VHP’s unrelenting efforts to convert the combined Bababudan-Dattatreya shrine into an exclusively Dattatreya temple. And, last but not least, the Sri Ram Sene. Anybody with these slavering beasts on his side cannot pretend to be the victim.

    I agree with you that trouble is brewing in the Bhatkal-Mangalore-Udipi-Kasargod area. I do not agree with you that the growth of the BJP is a reaction; rather, they are the people causing much of the tension in those parts. This is of course my personal view.

    This topic can’t be of general interest on this forum; if you wish to continue, we can do so offline.

  43. B. Civilian

    i just read some of the comments (i haven’t been following this thread). it is quite amusing to see how set ideas cause otherwise intelligent people to completely fool themselves. AP’s role playing has been comically inept. but i guess all this excitement in this whole fantasising will be ruined if the role playing attempted to be too realistic. after all, it is not to be told all about bowel cancer or bed sores that (such) people ask their partners to dress up as a nurse. AP, as a true connoisseur himself, knows that very well.

  44. Prasad

    all kinds of fakes floating around. I wished even bombs turned fakes!!!

  45. Prasad

    Hopefully Riaz Haq ( Worldwide ‘I know everything ‘ association President) isn’t fake

  46. Ummi

    Ylh is actually a Islam-Napasand but just like any phattu secular he also does not have balls to say it publicly.

  47. Bin Ismail

    @Abdullah Pannikkaran (April 21, 2010 at 5:29 pm)

    “….We have to see Hindu girls showing even ‘full’ belly….”

    Rejoice for not having to behold ’empty’ bellies.

  48. silk router

    In all hindu-muslim conflicts the initiative was and is from the muslims. The hindus only react – that too weakly and disorganized. This is so since 1200 years. Don’t truncate causal chains to make muslims look innocent. The muslim’s ideology is to attack/invade/take-over. If he wins he wins, if he loses he is assured of a quick place in the arab allah’s houri-heaven. Therefore even as a minority the muslim is far more aggressive, better-equipped-for-war and dangerous than a majority of hindus. A faith that teaches you to love and yearn for death and for life-after-death and postulates a god-concept that rewards such a love/yearning will always produce aggressive pseudo-martyrs aplenty. Such a faith alone will achieve victory. The extermination of hindus and hindu identity is pre-programmed and presumed by the arab god allah. He and his muslims are impatient that it is taking so much time.

    The muslims’ real sorrow is: West Asia was islamised fully in 20 years, Iran was islamised fully in 50 years, North Africa in 80 years – only the indian subcontinent is still 65% non-muslim even after 1200 years. How can the muslim in the indian subcontinent show his face in the ummah or in front of allah? That too with these cowardly-dastardly hindu mosquito-like mashriks as opponents. What right has the hindu identity or faith to survive without the permission of the chief sheikh or mufti of Makkah?

  49. Bin Ismail

    @ silk router

    “….kuran contains contradictions: why otherwise are so many conflicts….”

    The contradictions you perceive are in interpretations. There has always been an element of diversity in interpretations of holy scriptures, whether of the Vedas, the Gita, the Bible or the Quran.

  50. msmemon

    Dear YLH
    I have always wondered how a person who married a parsi women and must have declared himself not belonging to any religion is being claimed as champion of Islam. But now I am learning that it was not him but ‘others’ who glued Islam in the portrait to suit their whims. What a sad story. Dont you think that the innocent masses of that time were given the carrots of Pakistan ka matlab kiya…….. just to fool them. What do you say

  51. Bin Ismail

    @ msmenon

    The interesting thing is that the slogan of “Pakistan ka matlab kiya….” did not originate from the Pakistan Movement stage. It got imported from the rightists’ stage. This was a least known slogan prior to independence. During the early 50s, as the rightists – formerly pro Congress elements – began to make their inroads into Muslim League, this slogan made a climb on the popularity chart. So it was less of a carrot and more of a justification for the latter theocratization of the Pakistan project.