Let’s refocus: Kashmir, not Kabul

We are publishing a Canadian view here at PTH. This op-ed was published today in the well respected Canadian Newspaper The Globe and Mail. It is written by Doug Sanders, Globe’s respected Pulitzer Prize winning Chief of European Bureau. Mr. Sanders urges the West to help resolving the Kashmir Issue. This issue has been used by Pakistani Army and the Establishment to keep the impoverished nation of ours mainly as an India competing nation. The issue has contributed towards our inability to focus on developing our society as a modern, progressive entity; a society that focuses primarily on protection, health and education of all of its members (PTH)

 

By Doug Sanders, cross post from The Globe and Mail, Published February 20, 2010

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/lets-refocus-kashmir-not-kabul/article1475138/

Acting like an especially convivial nightclub manager, Pervez Musharraf storms the room and opens with a joke: “You should come to Pakistan – it’s the most happening place in the world, where there’s never a dull moment!”

There is nervous laughter. The man who was the military ruler of Pakistan for seven years would like to get back into politics, this time by election. “I’m no longer a military man,” he says, “so I cannot take over anything.” Even more nervous laughter. The generals, in Pakistan, are never far from power.

For decades, Pakistan has served the world as a large and obstreperous military force that inconveniently happens to have a nation attached. Nowadays, as far as the West is concerned, it mainly acts as the denominator in what the military calls “Af-Pak,” the war against the Taliban.

The week began with an exceptionally non-dull moment that confirmed this view, and showed what has changed since Mr. Musharraf’s departure in 2008. Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency said that, with the help of the CIA, it had captured the Taliban’s second-ranking Afghan leader, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, in northern Pakistan. This was considered a huge aid to the current Afghan military surge, in which Canada’s soldiers are playing a spearhead role, and a new phase in Pakistani-Western co-operation.

Throughout most of the Afghan war, Pakistan’s military and Mr. Musharraf had argued that, while it was worth using its soldiers to expel the Pakistan-based Taliban from places such as the Swat valley and North Waziristan, they weren’t interested in going after the Afghan Taliban leaders headquartered along the border in Pakistan.

Islamabad told the increasingly exasperated U.S. and NATO leaders that Pakistan wanted to stay friendly with the Afghan Taliban because it was worth maintaining influence over Afghan affairs. And, it said, the Pakistani army was too busy with other conflicts to risk opening another front against the Afghan forces. Those “other conflicts” are the root of everything that’s wrong with Pakistan, and everything that’s been wrong with the way we’ve treated this country.

Most Pakistani soldiers have never been deployed along the country’s northwest border with Afghanistan. They are overwhelmingly concentrated on the eastern border, preparing for a showdown with India that will never occur, at outrageous expense.

Mr. Musharraf drives this point home: After some perfunctory remarks about the Taliban, his talk is all about India’s plots, India’s intransigence, India’s dangerous meddling in Afghan affairs, India’s unwillingness to reason, India’s problem with Islamic extremism within its own borders, and even, heaven help us, India’s secret responsibility for fomenting Islamism within Pakistan. This is not just Mr. Musharraf’s view. The army chief of staff, General Ashfaq Kayani, said in a briefing this week that Pakistan’s No. 1 one threat remains India.

The Indian threat is a constant and popular trope in Pakistani politics. It is used by every elected leader to gain victory, and by every military dictator to justify seizing power. It’s a national obsession but one that kills. Pakistan officially spends 5 per cent of its national income on military-related expenses, compared with 0.7 per cent on health, according to Unicef. That makes Pakistan one of the biggest military spenders in the world, while having appalling infant-mortality rates, an average lifespan below 50, and education and literacy levels far below its neighbours.

While there’s no real danger of the Taliban’s taking over Pakistan, electorally or militarily, there’s a danger of Pakistanis becoming destitute and hospitable to terrible ideas – largely because we’ve turned the country into an anti-India military force.

The two nuclear powers came very close to resolving their Kashmir conflict in 2008. But the Mumbai terror attacks (carried out by Pakistanis) made such talks politically impossible until after Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had got a national election out of the way, and that occurred last year.

On Thursday, there was an even more important non-dull moment: India said it will resume talks to try to resolve the Kashmir dispute. Mr. Singh acknowledged that India’s impressive economic and human-development progress was being jeopardized by this simmering, expensive conflict. For India, resolution is worth a loss of face. For Pakistan, it never will be.

Never mind Af-Pak: The world urgently needs to fix Kash-Pak. We must do everything we can to make these peace talks work, for everything, including the Afghan conflict and the lives of hundreds of millions of people, depends on Pakistan’s generals being proved wrong.

41 Comments

Filed under Afghanistan, Army, Democracy, Economy, Education, Identity, India, Islamabad, Kashmir, Liberal Democratic Pakistan, North-West Frontier Province, Pakistan, Terrorism, USA

41 responses to “Let’s refocus: Kashmir, not Kabul

  1. neel123

    @ Doug Sanders,
    Middle finger at you.
    62 years and four wars later, only after Tibet and Balochistan are fixed, will there be the time for Kashmir.

  2. ylh

    Neel yaar you do ever get your head out of your rear orifice long enough to see the sunlight?

  3. There is no territorial, no religious, no military or terror (whoever commits it) solution to Kashmir. This is a reality that I believe many in Pakistan also accept, yet they are unable to dislodge India from being a #1 threat.

    Then what can be a possible solution?

    It can be only economic, and productive competition to bring prosperity in two Kashmirs.

    Also if, what Doug Sanders writes in 2010:

    “Mr. Musharraf drives this point home: After some perfunctory remarks about the Taliban, his talk is all about India’s plots, India’s intransigence, India’s dangerous meddling in Afghan affairs, India’s unwillingness to reason, India’s problem with Islamic extremism within its own borders, and even, heaven help us, India’s secret responsibility for fomenting Islamism within Pakistan. This is not just Mr. Musharraf’s view. The army chief of staff, General Ashfaq Kayani, said in a briefing this week that Pakistan’s No. 1 one threat remains India.” ;

    is true, then all I can say is that Pakistan’s leadership needs more honesty in thinking and dealing with its own awam, that Pakistan’s #1 threat is elsewhere and within.

    Pakistan and its awam cannot live on this paranoia any longer. These voices can only come into mainstream in a democratic Pakistan, if honest and competent leaders are presented as option for election.

    Failing to achieve the above, is the real #1 threat in today’s and tomorrow’s Pakistan.

    Who would bell the cat and tell Kiyani and others? Only democratic institutions can, however defective they may be to begin. Such transformation does not happen overnight, therefore, talks, cultural and economic initiatives should continue no matter what other things happen between the two neighbors.

  4. lal

    What solution on kashmir can be realistically sold to the public of both countries….There is no important election coming up in India…Even if there is , by reelecting both the maharashtra and central governments after 26/11 ,indian voter has shown his maturity or lack of choice….but how much leverage gilani/zardari sahib will have to make any genuine concessions

  5. Suv

    Whenever “Kashmir Issue” is mentioned international community focuses its attention on the Kashmir valley while issue must be tackled taking into consideration the sub regional plots. I belong to Jammu region of Indian side of J&K. In this region vast majority of population wants full integration with India, this includes Hindus who form the majority and Gujjars who have a significant percentage of population. In Ladakh region population comprises of Shias in Kargil and Buddhists in Leh area, both of which are strong proponents of full integration with India. Kashmir valley traditionally has three components: Kashmiri Pundits(now driven out of Kashmir), Shias and rest of population. Of these Shias and Kashmiri pundits would side with India. Of the rest , educated elites and professionals who have worked and have businesses in India may side with India but majority of population would vote for independence/merger with Pakistan. I suspect that after recent decline in Pakistani economic progress many would opt for independence.

    I don’t have complete knowledge of Pakistani Kashmir but I suspect Azad Kashmir would overwhelmingly vote for Pakistan if ever a plebiscite is held, but Gilgit and Hunza which have been denied any democracy and progress may opt for independence.

    I have always wondered how Azad Kashmir term was coined when people there speak a language that has no connection with Kashmiri.

    There is so much cultural,linguistic, geographical diversity in erstwhile state of J&K brought together by Dogra Maharaja Gulab Singh that treating it as a monolith is the biggest mistake that international community has been making.

  6. rex minor

    Le us look at the world events from a different angle.

    . Anyone from the military could tell you that all armies in the world identify a ghost enemy for the soldiers for training and motivation purpose in case they have to fight the enemy.
    There should be no surprise that the Indian as well as the Pakistani chiefs identify each other as potential adversaries. It would be difficult for them to identify their own citizens as the enemy as this would lead to disintegration of their armies.
    For the US, however, during the last months of George W’s in office the US military was compelled to identify China, replacing Russia as the potential enemy in the 21st century. The identification of terrorists was on the side line for keeping their marines in fighting form.
    The entire foreign policy of the US is based on this doctrine, first identified by George W and later followed by the Obama administration. with the reset spin.
    The neo- conservative group of strategists in the US have placed great emphasis on the energy needs of China who is regarded as the adversary who is bound to declassify US economic force during the next decade. Let us highlight some of the undertakings of the US in this regard;
    . Notwithstanding Indian enmity with Pakistan, George W’s crude approach to claim Indian friendship on nuclear deals.
    . and intrusion in most muslim countries with oil related resources, Iraq and Sudan to name some.
    . George W march in Afghanistan when his taliban friends refused to handover Osama to the US govt.
    . US active engagement in Afghanistan and Pakistan to destabilise them and thereby allowing the construction of US bases. The talibans have refused to accept the demand of US bases despite US govt. negotiations with number 2 of the Taliban, now the Zardari Govt have got themself in the act despite the fact that the number 2 was in Karachi to negotiate with the Americans. More pressure on Talibans?
    . Obama Govt. to supply billions worth of modern equipment to renegade province of Taiwan.
    . Obama welcome to the separist monk Dalai Lama, in his private chamber.

    To put it simply somehow the whole world is being involved in US strategic problems and their desire to control the world.
    On the other hand no one except the people of the country themselves, has got the slightest idea about the problems between India and Pakistan. Ofcourse the Pakistani army would like to get the whole world involved in this episode.
    My advice to the ex general, who has been seen walking up and down on edgware road in London to ask the good friend Mr singh for assylum in Delhi where he could find safety from the berieved families of Pakistanis who may not show kindness for his services.
    It

  7. Suv

    @Rex
    I don’t know which US intervention are you talking about in Sudan. In fact it was China which supported murderous regime of Al-Bashir, despite widespread charges on genocide on him, which drew international condemnation on China. Indo-US nuclear deal was an acknowledgment of India’s good record on non-proliferation of weapons and being largest democracy and an emerging world economy. Perhaps if AQ Khan had not set up a nuclear bazaar, Pakistan would have got a similar deal.I don’t think US invasion of Afghanistan is an example of China centric policy. Truth is that China and US are both strongly interdependent on each other. China for vast US market and US for funding the deficit. That is why despite China undervaluing yaun US is hardly seen protesting. As far as Dalai Lama and Taiwan is concerned that is primarily for the domestic audience.

  8. rex minor

    @Suv
    You did’nt get it or perhaps you do not agree with my reading of the neo-conservative strategy for the 21st century. Perhaps you should ask one of the think tank people to let you have a copy of the strategy paper. The US has an inherited corrupt system, worst in any western democracies; a journalist is able to obtain the secret info against a certain fee and the law cannot force the journalist to identify the informer.
    The Americans have no love for the so called largest democratic India, with the inherent caste system and discrimination of minorities as well as the suppression of its own muslim citizens in Kashmir. The US do not even have thus far a single Nuclear Reactor for the civilian use. The americans have also not forgotten India’s long love relation with Soviet Union, the old adversary nor can they ignore Pakistan’s silent love affair with China, the new emerging adversary. The advances made by George W and the Obama and co. is simply to set up basis in the vicinity of China and muslim countries who are today and the future sources of energy.
    In an Indian village two people were born, one provided the nuclear bomb to India and the other to Pakistan. The Indian nuclear Guru became the President of the Indian Nation and the Pakistan Nuclear Brain who invited from day one muslim nuclear scientist to his laboratory for seminars on nuclear science. Hence, his seminars on nuclear science a Bazaar. The military leader of Pakistan placed the great scientist in the house arrest. This is no different than the British Raj treatment of many Indian scientists during the colonial days. Innovation, invention must be in the hands of few marshal races and not with every one. The seminars for nuclear scientists organised in Europe and the US is not considered nuclear proliferation. Finally the world got rid of the egyptian magician who was playing politics in Geneva.
    The propaganda campaign against Al bashir’s Govt. for genocide is a one sided perverse accusations by the American machinery, simply to take a position against China which is heavily investing in oil rich muslim countries. Your quotation of the International community is equally a copy of the American propaganda. Many are now on the CIA payrolls, openly or in secret. The problem fo the world is that intelligence units of other countries are now competing with CIA.
    Unfortunately, after the departure of Nehru and Gandhi the Indian leaders have never stood tall in the world politics. The shabby handling of its territorial disputes with Pakistan and China was no more different than from the British Raj policies. Even today India on account of its leadership is not able to come out of the colonial period and stand straight as a sovereign Nation. Pakistan is no different, also ready to kowtow the policies of the West. Though people in both countries are fed up with their Govts. and this is reflected in their vast immigration to the West.
    The history of the Chinese as a Nation is well known from communism to a system what they have now. Their foreign policy is open and straightforward, i.e no intervention in the domestic affairs of other countries. Neither the West nor India would accept this policy. Life would become unbearible for the anglo saxons and the Indian politician, if they start minding their own business.
    Roma duit fluid, nunc potens minus est.( from my memory Rome flourished long, now it has lost his power. This is America calling before point zero. Remember Suv, it was the arabs who gave to the world “zero”, the romans did not know about it. We are all wise now about the point zero. China reflects the people’s stregnth not dependency on the US market. The Americans have no dinero, for how long they are going to keep on printing the green paper?
    Have a nice day.

  9. Mustafa Shaban

    @rexminor: You are absolutely rite

  10. Suv

    @Rex
    Every country seeks its own self interest and US is no different. But the fact is that US and India are natural allies as they are democratic countries who believe in free trade and both are facing rising challenge of terrorism. So it is natural that they come close to each other. Both are wary of China is an added factor but may not be the primary one.

    US does not have reactor is not a matter of concern here. Fact is that US has helped India get clearance from NSG, despite strong initial opposition from China and this has paved way for similar treaties with Russia and France. In fact US companies may not even be beneficiaries of the treaty as French companies have much more expertise in it. But fact remains that biggest hurdle of NSG could not have been cleared without US support.

    As far as nuclear bazaar is concerned AQ Khan did not just hold conferences he was selling the blueprints. You can believe in any conspiracy theory of ‘marshall races’ not allowing scientific progress, please explain why these races were helpless when China and India developed their nuclear weapons. AQ Khan first stole important blueprints from a Dutch company and then when bomb was ready with Chinese assistance he tried to sell. It is a well documented fact, but you are free to believe in whatever conspiracy theory you want to.

    Regarding Al-Bashir, do you really believe that Darfur genocide is a propaganda? I think to say that is delusional. I am sure you must also be subscribing to the theory that 9/11 was a CIA inside job.

    Gandhi never got an opportunity to shape India’s foreign policy but the less said of Nehru’s foreign policy the better. He did not pursue India’s self interest but chased lofty and ideological goals which caused India a lot of harm.

    In globalized world order no country is dependent on others they are interdependent. BTW domestic consumption is just 30% of GDP in China so they tend to rely more on exports than other countries(India -55%).Most of their exports are to western markets. I would say it less people’s power than turbocharged exports model.

    To sign off it was Indian subcontinent (by Aryabhatta) where zero was invented not Arabia. Arabs spread the knowledge of zero which they borrowed from Indians. In fact they called mathematics “Hindisat” (the Indian art) : Ref Wonder that was India -AL Basham

  11. Sameet

    Rex, you should listen to an excellent Pink Floyd song from the Dark Side of The Moon album, the title of the song is called “Us and Them”.

    Some say Pink Floyd is enjoyed much more with drugs, but I dont think you need them…..

    Suv, thanks for being kind enough to write a detailed rebuttal.

  12. Hayyer

    Rex Minor:
    The former Indian President had nothing to do with the nuclear bomb. He was a rocket man in charge of developing the DRDO’s rockets of which only two, the Prithvi and the Agni have been a success.
    The Arabs transmitted Hindu numerals to the west including the concept of zero. This is well documented-but the Arabs had their own contributions to mathematics, including the development of algebra, which are also pretty well documented.

  13. Rashid Saleem

    After a long interval, in Feb. 2010, the talks between Pakistan and India will resume. Kashmir may be one of the issues, but in the bigger picture both countries need to formulate a joint policy to curb all sorts of extremism in this region.

  14. Sadia Hussain

    The recent resumption of talks between India and Pakistan needs to be carried on. Both India and Pakistan need to channelize the dialogue as they face widespread religious extremism. The boundaries cannot be amended but our policies can be! Kashmir can have a joint administration and with joint currency and mutual border policing.

  15. Mustafa Shaban

    I have a question, should we:

    1. Leave Kabul completly out of the picture and only concentrate on Kashmir when talking to India?

    2. Or should we talk to India regarding Kabul so that it doesnt become a battleground for proxy wars between pro india and pro pakistan groups?

  16. rex minor

    @Suv

    It is not easy to seek truth, the facts are usually observed from the individual state of mind. I am not in the teaching profession but let me try again to restate my views. You are free to draw your conclusions;

    . Natural Allies, Have I not read this before on this forum about Pakistan being the natural ally of the US?

    . Dutch Involvement, So to use your terminology the Dutch were the supply source for the ‘Bazaar’ from where both Indian and Pakistani nuclear scientists benefitted. Indian scientists could provide further details. If you go back in history you would discover that it was the German Scientist who developed the atomic bombs for the United States and the Soviet Union.
    China, India, Pakistan and several other countries developed their nuclear weapons after independence, when they were no longer dependent on the Colonialists. If Indian leaders had not openly demonstrated their feat, Pakistan would not have either?There are many other countries in the world who possess the nuclear weapons and AQ khan had no part in it.
    . Sept. 11, Sir, I do not speculate on theories, it was a straight forward reponse from a group of Arabs who lost control of their senses and wanted to revenge the unsuccessful attempt of bill Clinton using missiles to kill Osama in Afghanistan. This is also well documented and even confirmed recently by Bill clinton.

    . Genocide, there are many African countries who are accused of human right violations and even genocide, but to accuse Al Bashir’s involvement is a question mark? “Let the person come forward and throw stone at the sinner who has not committed a sin”, these were the words of Jesus. Neither the US nor India have any moral platform to accuse other leaders of the nations for crimes against humanity and even genocide. By the way the US does not recognise the UN criminal court, for the simple reason to avoid standing in the dock the next day.

    . Indian leaders, I am sure that even Mr Nehru would have agreed to get rid of the caste system in the society! India’s foreign policy is not relevent, the people living in the country need to be a cohesive force, and the responsibility rests with the Indian Govt.
    . China is a large country and in my view has been on course to exploit the potential of its resources as well as the manpower. The US is a declining power, as much as I feel sad about the steady and slow demise of this once great country with all my observation I cannot see any future for this Nation. India, Pakistan and many others are still following blindly the pursuit for material life without securing the moral values in their societies.
    @Hayyer@Suv
    I thought the former President of India was a nuclear scientist, maybe I have to revisit his biography. I was simply pointing out that in view of the US pressure on Pakistan Govt. AQ khan was put under house arrest, whereas, the Indian leadership rewarded their hero.

    Zero, I am not going to follow back in history to confirm that the Arabs obtained this knowledge from the Indians or vice a versa. Today we are told that an egyption pharoha declare the existence of one God long before the arrival of Moses. The point was about the Roman empire going down, since they did not know the logic of ZERO. The Americans learnt it when the passenger planes caused such a destruction, therefore calling the place as Ground Zero.
    We all are advised to be aware of the point ZERO. Have a nice day Gentlemen.

  17. Hayyer

    Rex Minor:
    The atom bomb project had the best scientists of Europe and US working together. The few Germans were Jews. Germany itself under the Nazis never had a serious atom bomb project going.
    The American and Russian space programs on the other hand are a result of German rocket scientists who were taken away by the cartload.

  18. rex minor

    Hayyer,
    Sorry, many Germans would not agree with you. The four powers including US and the Soviet Union took most of the German scientests as prisoners of war. Some escaped to other countries including Argentina and Brazil. The atomic bomb program is the toy developed first by Nazi Germany, and used first by no other than the United States of America.
    Thank God that the Nazis did not use it!! It does not matter now who was the first genius and who the second was.
    Regards,

  19. Suv

    @Rex
    It is getting tiresome and this will be my final post in response to your theories.
    . Allies : You did not give me rebuttal of my claim that US and India share common interests apart from Chinese threat and there may be reasons other than China for these countries to come close to each other after decades of suspicion

    . Dutch Angle: You did not elaborate on your wildcat theory of “marshall races” out to deny Pakistanis technology. Nowhere did I say that Dutch sold blueprints to AQ Khan. He became a Dutch citizen and then in an unauthorized way stole their blueprints. It is like an Indian becoming a NASA scientist after becoming a US citizen and then stealing defense data to create weapons back in India. Could you please shed more light on your claim that Indian scientists got blueprint from the Dutch? Many countries have nuclear weapons but Pakistani establishment was hawking nuclear technology to North Korea in return for missile technology and Libya in return for money. Ultimately this ring was busted and Pakistani establishment made him a scapegoat. He could not have hawked it alone. I feel sorry for this guy really.

    Genocide : I am not saying that US or India are saints but it does not absolve Al Bashir of his crimes. In your first post you mentioned about US interference in Sudan, I asked you to elaborate on that ,which you did not. If President of a country cannot stop the disproportionate killing of non Arabs by army and Janjaweed then who is. If we go by that theory then Hitler is also innocent.

    . Your remark was that Indian leaders unlike Nehru and Gandhi were not upto the task in world politics which I presumed to be foreign policy. I claimed that Nehru was utter failure in securing India’s self interest. You did not rebut that and went on to make a tangential claim about India’s need to be cohesive within. In that respect Nehru did a great job, he helped create institutions which held India together but that was not your original point. Nehru’s misguided economic policy kept millions in poverty.

    . China’s ascent: Nobody denies that China is a rising superpower and will overtake US in a generation. But you made great claims that China is not dependent on US market. I showed using economic data that it really is.But don’t write obituary for US yet. It will still be in top 3 in 2050 with living standards far higher than China or India.

    While you claim that US is out to get Muslims and shed copious tears for Kashmiri Muslims please look at China’s track record of treating Uighurs. They have been reduced to minority in in their homeland within 50 years. Govt servants are not allowed to keep beard and fast during Ramadan and there is large scale destruction of their cultural heritage.Getting a Hajj permit is almost impossible for Uighurs. Compare that to people of J&K in India where govt has imposed article 370 so that non state subjects cannot settle permanently and change demography. People of J&K can practice their religion freely and can participate in elections.

    Regarding zero , it is better to admit your mistake than giving an irrelevant example of Moses and Pharaoh.

  20. Suv

    @Rex
    I don’t want to state that Indians were better at mathematics than Arabs, just referring to a historical fact. Indians did great research in mathematics especially during Gupta empire when Aryabhatta invented zero, computed Earth’s diameter and pi to great accuracy and gave concept of Sine. But Indians became too rigid and inward looking. Arabs translated ancient Greek texts on philosophy, physics etc and Indian texts on Mathematics, medicine etc and did a great job of accumulating knowledge and made significant contributions in medicine, chemistry, mathematics in middle ages.

  21. Mustafa Shaban

    @ Suv: I understand what you are saying, you are repeating what you see on Fox, CNN, BBC, and other corporate media outlets, most of them belonging to large media magnate like Murdoch. The corporate media is an arm of the elite and is funded by corporations and elitists indirectly, what you need is reliable independant accurate sources. To know the truth about Sudan and other places just visit www. global research . ca without spaces. This site is best in the world for understanding the world.

  22. B. Civilian

    Fox, CNN, BBC, and other corporate media outlets, most of them belonging to large media magnate like Murdoch

    BBC??

  23. Mustafa Shaban

    @B. Civilian: Let me clarify that one, BBC is not exactly corporate media but is still a propoganda arm of the British government and is biased.

  24. Mustafa Shaban

    @Suv: Your views are mainstream views, conventiional, but you see not everything you study in skool, uni or from TV is true. There are many concepts that are put forth by our education and media system and they are incorrect an false.

  25. Sameet

    There are many concepts that are put forth by our education and media system and they are incorrect an[d] false……

    Does that include PTV? Not trying to offend here, just being curious…..

  26. B. Civilian

    @sameet

    how many in india still watch durdarshan? btw, if yo know a pakistani that still watches ptv, do let ptv know so they can send them a gift and a thankyou card.

    @Mustafa Shaban

    are you saying that ‘bias’ equals ‘propoganda’? and that british ‘govt’ equals british ‘establishment’? that bbc is voluntarily part of the british ‘establishment’??

  27. Suv

    I get my information by reading books, New York Times and BBC. As far as I know none of them are owned by Murdoch.Also in present media age it is hard for media organizations to hide truth due to proliferation of blogs, video sites etc. I don’t believe in getting my information from conspiracy theory peddlers because I am secure in my belief that world is not out to get me/J&K/India/IT Industry/Hindus

  28. Hayyer

    Rex Minor:
    Please recheck your facts. The Nazi had an advanced rocket programme with the V 1 and V2 rockets. The former was actually a sort of unmanned plane. The latter a true ballistic rocket. Nazi Germany did not have an atom bomb project going. This was confirmed by Heisenberg( of the uncertainty principle) after the war.
    The Americans launched their project called the Manhattan project in 1939. It began as a result of a letter written by Einstein and Szilard to the US President that Germany might be planning to build such an atom bomb. The project was led by American scientists Robert Oppenheimer, some of his students, the Hungarians Teller and Slizard and a host of other brains from Europe and Canada. Project research sites were in USA, Canada and UK.
    The war ended you will recall when the US dropped two bombs over Japan in August ’45. Germany had surrendered in May the same year.

  29. Mustafa Shaban

    @B. Civilian: The BBC is a propoganda arm of the British government and foriegn policy. BBC and other channels echo western foreign policy and desires.

    @Suv: Why dont you check out www. global research . ca which belongs to the high PhD intellectuals who have vast experience in economics and politics and geopolitics? Also Murdoch is not the only media magnate and also all media is owned by different corporations and thier allegeince is not to truth but to elitist propoganda.

    Take for example Africa, Bashir is blasted because he is friendly with China and Russia, whereas Kagame has committed much bigger human rights violations but nothing is said about him since he is a western stooge. All western backed dictators human rights violation and autocracy is never discussed, only those who are freindly with China and Russia. Mubarak is never criticized, but democratically elected people like Hamas and Chavez are alwayz criticized. Its all geopolitics.

  30. B. Civilian

    @MS

    you forgot to answer the last of my three questions: is the bbc voluntarily part of the british ‘establishment’?

    if Yes, what’s the incentive? and if No, what levers does each and every british govt pull in order to achieve what you allege? what handle does the govt of the day have over the bbc?

  31. B. Civilian

    Take for example Africa, Bashir is blasted because he is friendly with China and Russia

    is this why the so-called ‘muslim’ world keeps quiet on darfur?

  32. rex minor

    @Suv @ Hayyer,
    I needed a break from competition with one another on info and knowledge. I am simply an observer and do not claim to have info better than others. Our sources are the same except that we probably have a different wave legnth and use different analytical methodology.
    I was simply putting forward a thesis that the US army costing the American tax payers and now the lending countries( Saudi Arabia, China and many others) estimated one trillion dollars is concentrating in the regions which are near to Chinese territory or sources of energy for this great nation. You may not agree with it. No problem. Let us hope that I am wrong in my calculation, I was not trying to undergrade India or their contribution to Knowledge.

    Bonapart plundered in Europe to collect wealth for France. The colonialists plundered the colonies and amassed their wealth. The US concentrated on weaponry for export to maintain their standard of living. For more than a decade now they lost the skill to even design a decent car and gave the market to Japanese and Europeans. Most recently the country was headed by the three ‘idiots’, Bush, Cheyney and Rumsfeld. Today they have an imposter ‘ WE CAN’ Mr Obama who is following Bush foreign policy and trying to find healthcare for the thirty eight odd million citizens.
    China has a 4000 years of civilization and has survived the occupation, plundering, abuse by no other than the colonialists UK, France, Japan, to mention few. The American involvement in Afghanista, Iran nuclear issue, occupation of Iraq, setting up a missile shield in the gulf etc. as well as the massive destabilisation program in Somalia, Zimbabwe, Yemen etc attributing it to terrorism, is a diversion. The strategic aim is to confront China. The Americans are no longer the main producers of products but have become consumers.

    Both India and Pakistan in my view are very ‘ verfuhrerisch’ (prone to seduction) simply because of their colonial past. Both countries have domestic uncertainties and their foreign policies are confused. I have no doubt that there is a wealth of genius in India and to a certain extent in Pakistan. The political leaders, however, are not expressing in any way the thousands of years civilisation to the world. Hence the claim on this forum of being the natural allies of the Unitd States. Like the ancient philosopher saying, ‘Those who do not express their knowledge place themselves with those who have no knowledge. I would have thought that both India and Pakistan are natural allies of China, since all the three countries suffered colonisation. Well, I guess I am wrong.

    Hayyer,
    Sir, I would agree with your facts. It is no longer important. It is very easy to confuse Jews with German Jews, Hungarian Jews and then the American Jews. Most of the research, according o my info., was carried out by Germans under Hitler who had the intention to militarily control the whole world, including the US.

    @Suv,
    AQ khan became the dutch citizen because of marrying a dutch lady!

  33. rex minor

    @Bcivilian
    I would agree with Mr Shaban on BBc, deleting the word ‘propaganda’.

    BBC is the arm of the British Govt. on foreign policy.

    Regards,

  34. Suv

    @Rex
    I don’t know why but I am compelled to write back. You are seeing patterns when none exist, like a mirage in the desert.
    -Saudi Arabia is an old US ally, dating back to times when China was not significant power
    -Involvement in Iran is due to their tilt towards Israel,esp when Iranian president has threatened Israel publicly
    -Missile defense has been offered to Gulf allies due to Iranian policy, I doubt it has anything to do with China
    -Somalia does not have a central govt worth its name for ages now. Their primary foe is Al Qaeda offshoot. I wonder if you think US is funding Al-Shabaab.
    -Yemen US does not have much military presence here. It is primarily funding incumbent govt against Al Qaeda
    -Zimbawe How is Zimbawe connected to China’s energy security?

    There is no denying the fact about China’s rise. China and India have been trading places as being world’s no 1 and 2 economies from Indus valley civilization till about 17th century. So their rise will restore the old world order and their decline will be seen a blip in their 5000 year old histories.

  35. Mustafa Shaban

    @B. Civilian: I do not know about the muslim world opinion of Darfur, but as far as I am concerned there are problems in Darfur but in no way is it of such a level that it can be termed genocide. The Congo has had 4-6 million people killed in the last 15 years due to internal conflicts, but funny nobody talks about that, no news channels report it, even though it is obviously genocide on a mass scale. What I am tryin to say is that mainstream media is highly politicized and I think rexminor can explain better how that is, as I beleive he also has a good grasp on current affairs.

    @rexminor, Suv: Rexminor has a very good grasp on things, Suv, you also have a lot of knowledge but your understanding is superficial and on the surface, like 90% of people due to your sources of info. I am not trying to criticize but just point out a flaw in your thinking process. The patterns rexminor talks about do indeed exist and are very realistic. Check out the website I gave you earlier and it wil open your eyes.

    A few examples:

    Look at the massive missile defence shield placed by the US on Europe. They say its for Iran but Irans missiles dont go that far at all! But they are very useful for reducing Russian retaliation capability.

    Isnt this Iran craze absurd? At best they are ages away from nukes. Iran has not invaded or attacked any country in a millenia. It has only acted in self defence and is peaceful. On the other hand look at Israel which hasnt unlike Iran signed the NPT and has over 200 unannounced nuclear warheads, has committed human rights violations on a masive scale and launched wars and overtly and covertly crossed sovereignity of many nations including its ”allies”.

    US NATO are surrounding China and Russia with military bases and blocking sea routes and stuff. This is very obvious but you will never hear it in the news or newspaper. You think Iran is a threat to Israel and US? Israel is far more powerful than Iran and so is the US.

    Zimbabwe and other African countries are very vital for China. China depends on these countries for its vast energy needs and China requires thier resources. Africa is now a new battle ground in the Great Game. US created Africom recently for good reason.

    You will listn to Friedman and Blitzer Olbermann and O Reilly but you will not try listening to Michel Chussodovsky, Rick Rozoff and Webstar Tarpley? Do you wish to only listen to one group of people and not the other? Dont you want to kno they other side of the story? Or atleast a diffferent perspective? These people are proffessionals and intellectuals of the higherst order. I encourage you to broaden your horizon and try to accept a whole range of possibilities and opinions. You will be surprised at what is possible in this world.

  36. B. Civilian

    @MS

    I do not know about the muslim world opinion of Darfur

    despite having access to ‘the best site in the world for understanding the world’? how come?

    there are problems in Darfur but in no way is it of such a level that it can be termed genocide

    using your scale, what would you term jenin 2002, for example?

  37. Suv

    @Mustafa
    There is no doubt that missile shield in Europe was to undermine Russia.There is no real threat from Iran there. But missile shield in Gulf states can be attributed to Iran’s missile tests and declared intent of enriching uranium. Iran’s leaders are trying to shift focus away from domestic troubles and botched election by adopting this bellicose stand. It will not serve Iran well.Even Russia which generally supports Iran to a large extent is now supporting sanctions.

  38. Mustafa Shaban

    B. Civilian : Actually I meant the muslim governments stance, as for muslim people they are very much against western accusations against Sudan. Also my website is mainly for geopolitical analysis and political analysis.

    I dont know much about it but it definitely was a massacre. The occupation is genocidal in nature.

  39. rex minor

    To understand the strategic brains of this world who prepare white papers for the so called great powers of the world, let me draw your attention to something very basic;

    . Iraq mass destruction weapons were destroyed during the first gulf war, but George went in on the excuse thatIraq still has these weapons. Mr Al Baraday, the Egyptian politician and head of the Atom Energy was playing his evil tricks and throughout his carrier tried to confuse the international audience on these issues like most Egyptians do.
    . Iran is being accused of building nuclear weapons and the US and Israel are not in a position to start a military campaign.
    Who is claiming that Iran does not already have the nuclear arsenal and the delivery system to reach Europe and the east coast of the US? Iran certainly not!! Iran says their nuclear program is for peaceful purpose. This is true, all nuclear weapons in the world are for peaceful purpose. No country is claiming to make nuclear bombs to use them, they are for deterrance. The US is the only country who have the exprience of using these lethal weapons.

    . Who has been claiming for a long time that North Korea does not have the nuclear weapons with a delivery system to reach Europe and the US? Well, North Korea had to declare their arsenal to avoid any underestimate on the part of the US. Negotiations to neutralise the Korean penesula, yes–senctions are useless.
    . Russian nuclear arsenal is sufficient to eliminate the US from the map. Mr Obama recognised this and is the first US President to implement the US/Russian treaty for reduction of their nuclear arsenals.
    . Both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons and the delivery system to reach Europe and the US. Has any one raised the question why thes states need a delivery system to reach other continents?
    . How many other countries could easily be classified as nuclear states despite having coducted no nuclear tests? Let me guess and I repeat it is only a guess, Argentina, Australia, Brasil, Sweeden and Japan.

    The US is making a grave error if they underestimate China and start a cold war strategy, for in my view they would have less patience than Mr Khuraschev, who agreed to withdraw nuclear weapons against the deal of US withdrawing their medium range nuclear armed missiles from Turkey.
    Have a nice day.

  40. rex minor

    @Suv,
    I get the imression that you are a very fine person. Perhaps, you should not accept everything on its face value, machiavellian over years is now part of the modern reality, call it what you may a ‘Spin’ or misleading the Nations. Most of the analogue leaders of the world are using deceit as part of the strategy.

    How much of the chaos in Sudan, Zimabwe, Palastine, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India is due to the internal unrest and how much is initiated from the foreign source. The respective intelligence chiefs of the countries should know about it. Do they?