Shahrukh You Rock !

IPL fiasco threatened to further worsen Pakistan-India ties.  Now the great King of Bollywood has stepped up to the plate and spoken on the issue. -YLH

The team owners of the India Premier League (IPL) have so far stood together on the issue of not bidding for any Pakistani players in the third edition of the event. They had come out in the media denying any foul play. But now a prominent voice among them has stood up and voiced his opposition to the issue. It is none other than the Baadshah of Bollywood, Shahrukh Khan who owns the Kolkata Knight Riders. Buzz up!In an interview to a leading news channel Shahrukh Khan said “They are the champions, they are wonderful but somewhere down the line there is an issue and we can’t deny it. We are known to invite everyone. We should have. If there were any issues, they should have been put on board earlier. Everything can happen respectfully,” It may be recalled that Shahrukh Khan who had taken active part in the bidding of the players in the first season had shown keen interest in Pakistani players. He had roped in Umar Gul and maverick Pakistani pacer Shoaib Akhtar in the first season. Shahrukh’s statement is bound to add to the controversy especially after fellow Bollywood celebrities Preity Zinta and Shilpa Shetty having gone out in full support of the fairness of the bidding process.

And this from Dawn:

KARACHI: As a perceived snub to Pakistani players by the Indian Premier League sparks a spat between the neighbouring countries, superstar Shah Rukh Khan, an IPL franchisee himself, believes the world champions should have been picked, reports DawnNews. “I truly believe Pakistan players should have been chosen,” Khan, co-owner of Kolkata Knight Riders (KKR), said. Khan, however, said that since “some issues” were involved the matter could have been handled by the IPL “respectfully”. No Pakistani player was bought by the eight Indian clubs during an auction on Tuesday for the third edition of the glitzy IPL despite the Pakistan team being the reigning world champions in the Twenty20 format of the cricket tournament. Rooting for the Pakistani players, Khan said they are the best T20 players in the world. “They are the champions, they are wonderful but somewhere down the line there is an issue and we can’t deny it,” he told a news channel. Khan said it was humiliating to him as a KKR owner that no one bid for the Pakistani players despite them being put up for auction. “We are known to invite everyone. We should have. If there were any issues, they should have been put on board earlier. Everything can happen respectfully,” he said. “Everyday we blame Pakistan, everyday Pakistan blames us. It is an issue,” Khan, who had five players from Pakistan playing for KKR in IPL’s first edition, said. Khan felt that the youth should circumvent all that is said about India and Pakistan by the politicians and say, “Pakistan is a great neighbour to have. We are great neighbours, They are good neighbours. Let us love each other.” “Let me be honest. My family is from Pakistan, my father was born there and his family is from there,” he said.

120 Comments

Filed under cricket, India, Pakistan, track-2

120 responses to “Shahrukh You Rock !

  1. karun

    if section of media takes up this issue, SRK will retract his statement faster than you can blink your eyes. srk, whose passion is to make money, knows what is politically correct and whats not.

  2. neel123

    This is not the first time that any Indian has had some good words to say about Pakistan.

    But that does not change the reality.

    Peace will come, not from good words, but concrete steps to demonstrate the genuine desire.

    Bangladesh is the latest example, where genuine steps taken by the Bangladesh Govt. against anti-India characters has created immense goodwill in India, and was reciprocated by Govt. of India, in the form of $ 1.0 billion line of credit, and tax exemption for many items.

  3. ylh

    Neel there you go acting like a jerk again.

  4. updike

    to PTH

    Pakistan plus arabic religion is bad, Pakistan sans arabic religion will be good (if they make it to escape from under it).

    This is the lesson we are getting every day. More and more pakistanis too are getting it.

    We don’t need arabs or an arabic book to teach us what is good or bad or divine or devilish etc.

    Even the IPL’s cricketwallahs have made this clear. But we get lost in some sideline discussions in this forum after every article.

  5. karun

    @ylh

    neel is making a very valid point. We as ppl on this side of the border who support your quest for a freeer/democratic/secular set up in Pakistan wholeheartedly abhorr the idea that the Govt. of Pakistan is not taking any steps to contain these lunatics and the criticism for the same is muted from responsible citizen groups.

    In comparision look at Bangladesh: Rounded off the top leadership of ULFA/BODO and handed them to India.(you would have perhaps heard of Dawood Ibrahim).

    well, i put the question back to you, whats wrong in competing for better relations with BD. At the moment India is miles ahead. you have some catch up to do.

  6. ashu

    Admirable sentiments from SRK. Only why did he not choose a Pakistani player? He was the boss, he had the money and he was free to choose, that too without any other competing bids.

  7. Vijay Goel

    SRK !! Rocks No two words about it.He has made money but never stooped low and does not behave in a politically correct manner as stated by friend karun.He has had his controversies with Amar Singh etc. but has always stood his ground.Speaks forthrightly and from the heart.Disagree if you would but don’t impute motives to him.

  8. Anurag

    “Shahrukh’s statement is bound to add to the controversy especially after fellow Bollywood celebrities Preity Zinta and Shilpa Shetty having gone out in full support of the fairness of the bidding process.”

    Not sure what is meant by above. Where did Shahrukh put into question the fairness of the bidding process? or say anything that puts a question mark on what Shilpa Shetty said? Like most right thinking Indians he is not happy Pakistanis were not bid for, but at the same time we cannot ignore the issues that are lurking in the background.

    Tournament is certainly poorer without some of the Pakistani players, however who would guarantee their security if another terrorist attack with clear links to Pakistan were to take place while IPL is on. Especially when the Pakistani Government is so reluctant to prosecute the anti-India terrorists roaming freely in Pakistan.

  9. ylh

    The first story is from India.

    The second is dawn.

    I am not sure why PTH is answerable about this report.

  10. ylh

    Roaming freely in Pakistan…more soundbytes. More nonsense.

  11. Mag regis

    Yasser,

    Could you explain why “roaming freely” is nonsense?

    Have not been long enough on this blog to know why you would think that?Is it your contention then that these people are not given sanctuary by some part of the Pakistani establishment?And why do you think that would not hurt Indians?

    I am asking this question quite honestly,not with any hint of sarcasm.I really am curious to know the average urban middle-class Pakistani’s view on Dawood , Sayed Hafiz,etc.

  12. Anurag

    If PTH reproduces a piece and appears to be in agreement, a clarification on factual inaccuracies is in order. Or maybe publish it with a disclaimer.

    I suggest rebutting the claim about free roaming terrorists with facts rather than dismissing it as nonsense. What about Dawood and Hafeez indeed?

  13. Majumdar

    Yaar Yasser you shudnt crib too much about the Hindoos on this site. As someone recently wisely observed Hinduoon ki zahaniyat hi aisi hai!!!

    Regards

  14. philomit

    at the end of the day, thy return to the same topic of hindoo n muslim n others. talkin rationally to sm people is reallr difficult bcoz all tht matters to them is religion. thy r bound by the orthodoxy n a

  15. philomit

    Dear Majumdar,
    At the end of the day, u return to the same topic of hindu n muslim n others. Talkin rationally to sm people is really difficult bcoz all tht matters to them is religion. U r bound by the orthodoxy n all your thought process n beliefs r just discriminatory in nature. Shahrukh is a muslim n he is the most loved superstar in this country. N think of sm1 sayin smthin gud abt India in your country, must have been given 101 lashes.

  16. Hayyer 48

    What a smoothie! He owns a team. He is party to the boycott. This is bit more difficult than selling fairness creams.

  17. vajra

    @Philomit

    I heartily agree with you. Pakis like Majumdar should be given fifty lashes to remind them not to be so serious all the time, and not to take things seriously all the time, and not to take advantage of other people’s good natures, and sent back crying to their mummies.

  18. Majumdar

    Philomit,

    OK. SRK is a Muslim and popular in India. So what is the big deal- he is an Indian ainnit. But Bachchan sab and Madhuri Dikshit – they are not only Hindoo but an Indian to boot but still very popular in Pakistan.

    That proves that “Pakis” are more broadminded than Hindoos. Think about it.

    Regards

  19. ylh

    Ok is someone going to point out to this idiot that majumdar is not Pakistani?

    Thank you

    Secondly I was asked about hafiz sayeed and dawood ibrahim. Sayeed is out on bail …largely due to paucity of evidence. I would personally like to see him behind bars but I am afraid Pakistan cannot bend rules of evidence for anyone’s sake. We’ve already done a lot of that in the past.
    This is a changed Pakistan now.

    As for Dawood Ibrahim…you’ve got the wrong country. He is probably in Dubai.

  20. updike

    majumdar writes:

    “That proves that “Pakis” are more broadminded than Hindoos. Think about it.”

    Thought about it.

    “Hindoo” India is producing (both in absolute numbers and per 1000 of population) more lovable/admirable/trustworthy/peaceful types (both hindus and muslims, and others) than what the islamic paradise of Pakistan is producing. Nothing to do with broadminded-ness of pakistanis. The “pakis” have no other choice.

    Why these hindoos on the PTH are interested in flattering muslims, esp. pakistani muslims? this self-hate practised by these hindoos is obnoxious.

  21. ved

    When Badshah of bollywood says something, youth listen to him. He raised very valid point when he says the youth of both the country should circumvent what all is said by politicians.

    But my doubt is that….being owner of one of franchise, why he had not opted for any Pakistani players….that smells fishy.

    I want to say something……SRK or Big B, when these people attains these height, when these becomes famous world wide, giving name and fame to your country, they should not be bound by petty things like religion, caste, creed, race or any particular political orientation.

  22. Anurag

    “Secondly I was asked about hafiz sayeed and dawood ibrahim. Sayeed is out on bail …largely due to paucity of evidence. I would personally like to see him behind bars but I am afraid Pakistan cannot bend rules of evidence for anyone’s sake. We’ve already done a lot of that in the past.
    This is a changed Pakistan now.

    As for Dawood Ibrahim…you’ve got the wrong country. He is probably in Dubai.”

    Thank you for your response. Thats certainly more civil. What you’ve quoted on Hafiz Sayeed and Dawood is the official Pakistani response. It is common knowledge they’re not being prosecuted mainly because Pakistan lacks the will to do so for one reason or another. They’re just the tip of the iceberg anyways, what about Omar Sheikh Saeed, Masood Azhar and so on?

    I WISH Pakistan (or India for that matter) had changed in the manner you suggested.! Alas, no such thing has happened.

  23. ylh

    Why is it that your official responses are alright and ours are not?

    I am sick of this nonsense from smug Indians. Why don’t you start proving that there was some irregularity with the process?

    If you can’t then shut up.

  24. ylh

    PS. Who died and made you an expert on Pakistan btw?

    There is a little movement called the Lawyers’ movement which we waged.

    And then you have the gall to ask about Omar Sayeed Shaikh. Is he “roaming about”? He has been in confinement in Hyderabad jail since 2002.

    So why don’t all smug Indians first do their homework instead of jumping up and down like crazies.

  25. Milind Kher

    It is good that Shahrukh has taken a stand on this issue. Maybe, what he is saying may not go down too well with Preity Zinta or Shilpa Shetty. I don’t think that Shahrukh will let that affect him too much.

    People have tried to impute a communal motive to his stand. However, I think it is more about doing the right and gentlemanly thing.

  26. Anurag

    ylh,

    You seem to fume, assume and call names left, right and center without any regard whatsoever to the tone of your language.

    Who told you I acceppt official Indian responses? Why makes you accuse me of being smug? When exactly did I claim to be an expert on Pakistan?

    Okay so one of the terrorists I thought was roaming freely, isn’t. Apologies, will check facts more carefully in nature. But you know what, you need to learn to treat people with respect and on face value first.

  27. ylh

    Dear anucrook,

    Don’t go in circles.

    Now that you’ve been proven wrong on one such case how about bringing evidence for other two?
    Show how your point makes any sense?

    The fact that you were so blatantly and utterly wrong on Omar Sayeed Shaikh should give you reason to pause and stop barking up the wrong tree as is your won’t.

  28. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    Sorry for taking you away from this conversation. However, there is something good you may be able to do.

    Why not have a forum where people can vote online to get Pakistani players included in IPL?

    Many whose views do not otherwise get publicized will get a chance to have their voices heard

  29. ylh

    Dear Milind,

    It is clear that all good people want pakistani cricketers to play in IPL.

    The only people who oppose it are our jehadis and those in your country who accept Indian govt’s public political foreign policy position as the gospel truth. Example Anurag,
    We must reject our state(d) positions and look forward to a real aman ki asha by doing what SRK has suggested.

    I for one consider the country that produces milind kher, vajra, gorki, majumdar, srk and others including the great Jaswant Singh …a great neighbor others notwithstanding.

  30. Anurag

    I think I’ll never be quite able to stoop to your levels. So suit yourself as far as being insulting to people is concerned. Maybe thats your wont.

    (I wish though there were some sane people on this forum who would take note of it.)

    Dawood Ibrahim:
    Please google him. You’ll find enough material to suggest how everyone who’s willing to objectively think about the issue knows he is in Pakistan.

    Hafiz Sayeed:
    http://sawantspeak.blogspot.com/2009/09/say-no-to-pak-on-kashmir.html

    Masood Azhar:
    http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1821/18210190.htm

  31. Anurag

    “The only people who oppose it are our jehadis and those in your country who accept Indian govt’s public political foreign policy position as the gospel truth. Example Anurag,
    We must reject our state(d) positions and look forward to a real aman ki asha by doing what SRK has suggested.”

    You haven’t a clue about the positions I take and go on accusing me of things you please. For gods sake, a man has to have some perspective.

  32. ylh

    Anurag,

    Your nonsense about Omar Sayeed Shaikh issue has shown me precisely where you stand.

  33. Milind Kher

    Thanks for the kind words.

    Likewise, I too could say that a country that has people like Yasser Latif Hamdani, Raza Rumi, Adnan Syed, Bloody Civilian is a great neighbor to have.

    I find a touching optimism in the Pakistanis who are expecting an Indian delegation to come over and take the Pakistani players to India. If it could actually happen, it would be terrific.

  34. Anurag

    “Anurag,
    Your nonsense about Omar Sayeed Shaikh issue has shown me precisely where you stand.”

    Great. Thanks ylh.

  35. ylh

    Welcome. Glad to be of help in your journey of self realization.

  36. Luq

    YLH, why arent there any pakistanis in KKR (shahrukh’s) team ?

    Luq

  37. Shubhada

    We will call Pakistani broad minded when real heroes such as ASI Tukaram Ombale is more popular in Pakistan than Nautanki Heroes. Pakistani Zamindars and Waderas make Bollywood Natch Chiknas and Chiknies so that the Haris and poor Abduls and Ayeshas forget about their rapes and plunder. Cricket and Bollywood is meant for sedating Pakistani idiotic awam.

  38. Rune

    ylh is following his pious national duty of India bashing, nothing wrong with that. PTH is still much better than most of the other crazy Paki blogs. Taliban infiltration of PTH is now complete.

    Or is this all for more page views my dear ylh?
    No publicity is bad publicity after all.

  39. ylh

    And you are doing your national duty of trolling on Pakistani websites like most of your compatriots right?

    The only people who think I am India-bashing here are hatemongering fanatics- taliban’s brothers from another mother.

    Learn to put things in proper perspective and take criticism like man…not a whiny bitch on heat as most of you India-shining types tend to do.

    The difference – to repeat my trademark quote- between Indians and Pakistanis is that the latter know their shit stinks, the former are entirely oblivious of it and devour it mistakenly as halwa and then insist that it is the sweetest thing they had.

    Ah – the wonders of the land of panchgavya.

  40. ylh

    “Taliban infiltration of PTH is now complete”

    So anyone who tells Indians like it is is automatically the taliban. Forget one’s other contribution especially against religio-fascism of all kinds.

    Have some shame some time. I know it is hard for people like you.

  41. Rahul

    @YLH
    “The difference – to repeat my trademark quote- between Indians and Pakistanis is that the latter know their shit stinks, the former are entirely oblivious of it and devour it mistakenly as halwa and then insist that it is the sweetest thing they had”

    YLH – You are the greatest Shit connoisseur the world has ever produced.

    Thanks for telling us the difference between Shit and Halwa. You obviously are speaking out of your own extensive experience – I can safely guess at the very minimum, you would have tasted American shit, Arabian shit and your own Pakistani shit (the Taliban delicacy type).

    Please take this post as a compliment – and an appreciation of your great abilities from an Indian.

  42. ylh

    Rahul,

    Your small mind is obviously incapable of grasping the analogy. Let me explain. I criticize Pakistan for what it is. You praise India for what it is.
    I stand up for minorities and against state persecution, you consider it legitimate action of the state.

    The difference is quite apparent. So you tell me who is eating shit and who is not?

  43. updike

    ylh has the habit of criticizing (correctly or falsely) others for a particular mistake and then committing that same mistake himself.

    This gets repeated so often that it becomes a pain or joke or whatever else, except a good discussion.

  44. Rahul

    “Your small mind is obviously incapable of grasping the analogy.”

    Like I said, I am not an expert on Shit like you. So, keep your knowlege-base about shit with you (including the analogy, taset pattern etc etc)

    “Let me explain. I criticize Pakistan for what it is.”

    Well, you should.

    “You praise India for what it is.”

    I feel good about a lot of things in India. What is your problem with that??

    “I stand up for minorities and against state persecution”

    Again you should.

    “you consider it legitimate action of the state.”

    I hope you have had a good night’s sleep. Where on earth did you get an idea that I consider it a legitimate action of the state?

    In the company that we started, my founding partner is a muslim – and we are two hindus.
    (And we are doing well – thank you very much)

  45. Rune

    I have read this shit and halwa thing so many times from you that it is no more funny. Try something new for a change, like copy-pasting some Lollywood stories. SRK is a Muslim and an Indian, don’t get fooled by the name, he has the least of sympathies for any Pakistani player. He like all clubs runs a money making enterprise and not a Jamaat-ud-Dawa madarassa run on Arab money. I am sure PTH can do better than cry over a few club matches.

  46. ylh

    Yes ofcourse we all know all Indian Muslims are bollywood stars and all Pakistanis are Jamaat ud dawa.

    You guys live in a world of your own just proving my point again.

    Now listen up …if you have any more such ridiculous soundbytes I’ll delete them. If you are such a great country then stay off our websites.

    “I feel good about a lot of things in India”

    Yes. I am sure that halwa tastes good to you but no thanks…there is probably a lot I can celebrate vis a vis Pakistan, lawyers’ movement etc but I’d rather look at the bigger picture. You ofcourse will buy all the halwa you can because you come across as a scoundrel for whom patriotism is indeed the last refuge.

    And spare me the “some of my best friends are niggers” crap too please thanks.

  47. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    IPL will lose a lot of its charm if the Pakistani players do not come. We are working at getting the powers that be to change their stance.

    We need you to work from your side. Forget the angst and mutual recrimination. Let us just make it happen!

  48. “They are the champions, they are wonderful but somewhere down the line there is an issue and we can’t deny it. We are known to invite everyone. We should have. If there were any issues, they should have been put on board earlier. Everything can happen respectfully”

    Agreed. There was absolutely no grounds to humiliate players who have given their entire lives to the sport.

    “I truly believe Pakistan players should have been chosen”

    Well then why did he not choose any ? Seems a bit contradictory.

    “Pakistan is a great neighbour to have. We are great neighbours, They are good neighbours. Let us love each other.”

    YLH, I hope you can see why this is an almost laughable statement. The simple fact is that Pakistan is not a great neighbour. It is difficult for regular Indians to believe this when every other day we are bombarded by news stories of infiltration of armed militants from Pakistan into India. Recent events have clearly shown evidence of this. There is virtually no trade between India and Pakistan. So how is Pakistan a great neighbour ?

    I understand and appreciate your commitment to make Pakistan great, but from an Indian perspective the real shit in Pakistan is the brazen violation of India’s sovereign space by agencies of the Pakistani state not Pakistan’s attitude towards minorities or how closely Pakistan follows Mr. Jinnah’s words.

  49. ylh

    Vikram,

    Pakistan’s govt, the hitherto pro-peace PPP government has accused india of infiltration in Balochistan. What do you say about that?

    The issue is that we are not looking at the bigger picture. India and Pakistan are both awful neighbors as far as security agencies are concerned.

    But I’d like to think Milind Kher and I are good neighbors.

  50. Rune

    ylh says:

    “Yes ofcourse we all know all Indian Muslims are bollywood stars and all Pakistanis are Jamaat ud dawa.”

    LOL!
    Good one!

  51. Rune

    ylh says :

    “Pakistan’s govt, the hitherto pro-peace PPP government has accused india of infiltration in Balochistan”

    It is not us, it is the Israelis.

  52. Rahul

    @YLH

    “Yes ofcourse we all know all Indian Muslims are bollywood stars and all Pakistanis are Jamaat ud dawa.”

    You are farting through your mouth – which exposes your seige mentality. Don’t indulge in shadow boxing and stay close to facts of discussion.

    “Now listen up …if you have any more such ridiculous soundbytes I’ll delete them. If you are such a great country then stay off our websites.”

    Yes of course. Del button is the last refuge of a scounderel like you who cannot face facts. Well, if you find the heat too hot to handle, get out of the kitchen yourself. Are you saying that this website is only for those self-hating individuals who can only feel bad for their country and would like to wallow in shit for ever.

    If yes, then it was a bad choice to be here in the first place.

    “there is probably a lot I can celebrate vis a vis Pakistan, lawyers’ movement etc but I’d rather look at the bigger picture”

    Are you trying to threaten me that if I don’t start having the same rotten big picture about my country that you have for yours – then you will start celebratng lawyer’s movements and other sundry achievements of Pak?? Go ahead and do it, no probs at all. In fact, it will be good for you in taking out of the shit pit that you have dug for yourself.

    “And spare me the “some of my best friends are niggers” crap too please thanks.”

    Since you are so pre-occupied with developing your taste and smell for shit, you cannot even contemplate anything positive. I wish you luck in your endeavour of being the best “Shitman” to ever happen to this world.

  53. yasserlatifhamdani

    Rune…

    “It is not us, it is the Israelis.”

    Not according to Christine Fair of RAND Corporation. As far as I know she is not employed by Jamaat-ud-dawa.

    “It also reproduced a discussion carried by American journal Foreign Affairs’ website quoting RAND scholar Christine Fair as saying: “Having visited the Indian mission in Zahedan, Iran, I can assure you they are not issuing visas as the main activity.

    “Moreover, India has run operations from its mission in Mazar (through which it supported the Northern Alliance) and is likely doing so from the other consulates it has reopened in Jalalabad and Kandahar along the border,” Fair said.

    She went on to add: “Indian officials have told me privately that they are pumping money into Balochistan.

    “Kabul has encouraged India to engage in provocative activities such as using the Border Roads Organisation to build sensitive parts of the Ring Road and use the Indo-Tibetan (Border) Police force for security. It is also building schools on a sensitive part of the border in Kunar – across from Bajaur. Kabul’s motivations for encouraging these activities are as obvious as India’s interest in engaging in them”, Fair contended.

    It also said Fair “may not have substantiated the allegation that India has opened ‘dozens of consulates’ along the Durand Line to bother Pakistan, but she has told the world that India’s Jalalabad and Kandahar consulates have offices along the border”.

    More at : India fomenting trouble in Balochistan, Pakistan meddling in northeast: Editorial”

    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/india-fomenting-trouble-in-balochistan-pakistan-meddling-in-northeast-editorial_100176648.html#ixzz0dh79t52z

  54. yasserlatifhamdani

    Rahul…

    My my … how articulate you are for a professional defaecation (i.e. Indian Halwa) regurgitator

    Keep exposing yourself.

  55. Rahul

    “My my … how articulate you are for a professional defaecation (i.e. Indian Halwa) regurgitator”

    Well, I am glad I could be of some help in extending your taste to all types of Halwa.

    Now, apart from your taste of Arabian, Pakistani and American Halwa – you would also understand Indian Halwa.

    That is one more arrow in your quiever to scare people with.

    Keep up, Shitman!!

  56. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ah … it is almost painful to see your squirming in pain like this.

    Your vocabulary seems to be rather limited though. Is it your superior system of education in India… or something else?

  57. PM

    YLH,
    You are a brave soul try to hold your own against Indian low life.It is like an infection all over the internet.

  58. Hayyer

    Shahrukh Khan wants it both ways. He should have put his money where his mouth is.
    It is now becoming clear that the owners were under pressure from the IPL or other elements. We would have reason to admire Shahrukh if he would tell the public what the pressures were. Further, he should, sell the KKR and say why he is selling out.
    The owners have a public duty to speak out. They share the blame if they don’t.

  59. vajra

    Maybe, and maybe not.

    Standing up for one’s own country doesn’t mean running down another. I think what Yasser tried to convey was taken badly by many Indians, who thought that his intention was to run down India. I heard him backing Pakistan, and I heard him deprecating a perceived Indian tendency to be smug and superior, both of which are fine.

    I don’t think he’s entirely right, however. The tendency that he sees is largely to be found, in my opinion, among Indians living together, who tend to lose their self-confidence in totally alien surroundings, and flock together, and mouth identical views for fear of being ‘de-flocked’, if you will pardon the coinage. This is the sort that Yasser reports he encountered, this is the sort that Haq reports he encountered, and I have no reason to believe that they exaggerated. My guess is that a vocal extremely jingoistic minority has the upper hand in these gatherings, or these groupings, these flocks, and they tend to drive the others along like sheep.

    The other place is on the Internet.

    For one thing, one set of people one tends to hear from on the Internet, on blog-sites and mailing lists and on PTH in particular have fixed mind-sets and are ready to see insults where there are none, to feel slighted where there is no slight being offered. They are not necessarily xenophobic, but when provoked, and they are provoked far too easily, they react by pointing to faults in the other person, or the other entity in this case, a thoroughly negative stand. This has been described well as the “Your-shirt-is-torn-So-what-your-fly-is-open” syndrome.

    There has been a rush of this type of mailer due to the two recent articles on the IPL happenings posted here.

    While I wish those two posts had not been made, and provocation not offered, it is undeniable – and this is the point I want other Indians to understand – that the entire matter caused hurt and offense. Let’s face it, even public opinion in India, media opinion in India and even the opinion of the administration is against it. Yes, there may have been cogent reasons for the step, but applying for visas, getting visas, putting up the players for auction, and then refusing to bid was really clumsy and heavy-handed, and if I were a Pakistani cricketer, or a Pakistani man in the street, I would have been deeply offended. Keep me out of your house by all means, I am not dying to get in where I am not wanted, but don’t open the door, invite me in, and then slam it shut in my face just as I respond in all innocence to what I believe is a straightforward invitation. That is disgusting.

    I think that India is a country strong enough and mature enough, and for that matter, democratic enough, to be able to acknowledge that this was a bad decision, and to say quite clearly that it was thought through poorly and executed badly, and that it was thoroughly unnecessary to do things quite this way. It is a good idea to admit that one is wrong, when one is wrong, and move on from there. Defending the indefensible is not really the Indian way – or, personally speaking, I would like it not to be the Indian way.

    For another, a second set of Indians are not reactive but pro-active in being there only to make trouble. These ‘trolls’ love fanatic sites, and love fly-by postings there; this is a random insult delivered on the move, and the reaction never sought: the purpose has been achieved of upsetting someone who is seen as a target to be hit no matter what the means used. However, and regrettably so, they also like liberal blogs like PTH; the thought that there could be decent, educated people, not bigots, not fanatics, not religious fundamentalists, is a red rag before a bull for them, and they cannot help charging such a target.

    This sort is ever-present at PTH, like a persistent fever that won’t go away by itself, the sort that a doctor would identify with an infection of the urinary tract. This sort has also come to life, with a flicker of excitement in its dull and moronic gaze, and shambled in to do the most damage it can.

    The first category will soon come to its senses, but will get into a bad temper at the next avoidable opportunity, the second needs a strong dose of broad spectrum antibiotics, but someone has to be strong enough to administer it.

    Neither is a typical Indian.

    Read this for a better rounded view. Note well that it is not the usual mine-is-bigger-than-yours comparison with Pakistan; try to see it outside the usual framework of reciprocal indignity.

    This was, in other words, a patriotic crowd: not nationalistic, not imperialist, not aggressive, but rather self-critical, focused on what is still wrong as well as what has gone right. I don’t want to make too much of a single session at a single festival, but it was clear that no one was remotely intimidated by being there, no one was afraid to say anything aloud. It’s that sort of patriotism, so hard to find in China and Russia, that gives India its lively novelists, its open public culture, its energetic film industry. It’s that sort of patriotism that, if it can be encouraged and maintained, will keep Indian politics diverse and democratic over time—even if the economy stops growing.

  60. updike

    But why use filthy language?
    And why reciprocate filthy language with filthy language?

    Why criticize a mistake and then commit it yourself?

  61. Milind Kher

    @Vajra,

    Inviting the Pakistanis, and then slamming the door in their face was indefensible. It shows all involved in a very poor light.

    Regarding trolls, all I can say is that PTH is quite understanding and this decency of theirs is taken unfair advantage of. Of course, it also reveals deep feelings of frustration and envy on their part.

    YLH does fly off the handle at times, but we need to understand that is ire is directed at these trolls, and not all Indians.

    We have to live with some of these things. The best way is to completely ignore those who misbehave. That way, we direct our energies constructively and don’t get affected by their churlish behavior.

    Regarding IPL, the whole bunch has exhibited sick and revolting behavior. I wish I had a forum where I could tell them to their face how cheap they are.
    Their millions have given them money, but culturally and ethically they are worse than beggars.

  62. vajra

    @updike

    I do not hold with filthy language. Insults, yes, filthy language, no. If you go through my posts, I have never used a word or phrase that I could not have used in front of my daughter or wife.

    Please check and see.

    @Hayyer

    It seems, due to unexpected juxtaposition, that I was replying to you. I wasn’t; my thoughts were set in motion by the earlier post at 2:54 pm.

  63. Milind Kher

    YLH had put up a post saying “Sharukh, you rock”. I now want him to put up a post saying “Shahid Afridi, you rock”.

    Yes, even after all that has happened, Shahid Afridi is willing to forgive and forget. The irony is that he is willing to forgive even before we have apologized.

    What a beautiful light that shows him in, and what a poor light it shows all the team owners in. Geographical borders mean nothing. People like this are closest to us no matter how far away they stay.

  64. vajra

    @Milind Kher

    I am getting sick and tired of your saying what I am thinking, before I say it myself.

    That apart, you have reflected my feelings at this time exactly. The only problem is that constructive behaviour comes very hard to me.

  65. yasserlatifhamdani

    The difficult position one finds one’s self as a Pakistani liberal does at times mask my own position for others in the heat of battle…

    Vajra and Milind Kher have explained my point of view very eloquently.

    My position is fundamentally this:

    1. There are good and bad people everywhere. It is equally true of India and Pakistan.

    2. We can be rivals and competitors but let us be rivals and competitors at human development indicators, education, healthcare…freedom, tolerance, equality. There is no question that in many of these India has surpassed Pakistan (though only marginally)… but should this mean that we are abused day in day out? After all these are all matters that have no final answer but are subject to troughs and peaks through out.

    3. Pakistan and India must be at peace – not just for goody-goody reasons of peace, holding hands and singing kumbaye – but because only if we are at peace, we can put our own houses in order. Not only that… but every drop of blood spilled, be it Indian or Pakistani, will only put Pakistan on the wrong side of history. It is therefore essential for Pakistan and India to come to terms so that we can get on with making our countries prosperous.

    4. Both India and Pakistan play dirty games in each other’s countries as I have shown above. I certainly don’t want Dawood Ibrahim or Masood Azhar types finding refuge in Pakistan but we must also not circumvent the legal process anymore.

    5. Similarly Indians should consider the nightmare scenario of smaller states replacing Pakistan. Alastair Lamb wrote in his book that had it no been for a vertical two nation division, India would head to balkanization… (had there been no kashmir – he says- Pakistan and India would have developed as two nation states evolving towards each other rather than away from each other)… now if Pakistan is subjected to such ethnic division, I can assure that it will be only a matter of time before India is torn asunder by similar centrifugal forces.
    Bangladesh was and will always be separate issue.
    So it is my considered opinion that barring disputed area of Kashmir, Pakistan and India have great mileage to be gained in the integrity of each other.. instead of disintegration.

    6. Indian view of Pakistan is horribly jaundiced and ignorant. Pakistan is not a country that easily gives to stereotyping. It is a strange country which has tried very hard and in vain to reconcile religion with the modern statehood. This is not unique … the Turkish revolution – the only real precedent of a successful secular state in the Muslim world- was preceded by a century of constitutional experimentation of reconciliation between faith and modernity. This attempt – an evolutionary phase- renders Pakistan in two worlds… this comes out clearly in our constitution which at once includes diametrically opposite principles … and down to the wire Pakistan is a society of stark contrasts… of fundamentalism and secularism … of conservatism and liberalism… in naked conflict with each other. The logic of nation state… the pressures placed on a hitherto agrarian and militant people i.e. Punjabi and Pushtoon Musalmans .. has transformed them into bankers, accountants, lawyers, doctors etc… states – even self styled Islamic republics – are ultimately run on secular principles and have to concern themselves with worldly and material things… and in the process this secularizes the society fundamentally. Even the absence of Hindu money lenders has created a new class of Pathan Money lenders who charge interest rates far higher than the old Mahajans… thus Pakistan is a society in transitional phase in the very European sense… it is in a way akin to pre-1905 France … Secularism in France post 1905 was always more militant and rigid because Catholicism pre-1905 was always more over-powering in France. Pakistan will go down a similar course. So this stereotyping of us as Arab-wannabe Islamists is blatantly unfair and quite ridiculous.

  66. Milind Kher

    @Vajra,

    Since you would obviously not believe in telepathy, let us put it down to delightful coincidence🙂

    Well, the latest is that Lalit Modi says that he never wanted the Pakistani players to be excluded, it was all the decision of the franchise owners.

    Just see how things are going to change. And very rapidly. I am happy that there are still some upright and unbiased souls like you around..

  67. Milind Kher

    I respect the manner in which YLH is striving to see that he contributed to his nation being a secular democracy.

    We need to encourage this process. Balkanisation of Pakistan would result in rogue states with a tremendous hostility towards India. A very scary proposition indeed.

    I do see an increasing number of Pakistanis who want to be friends with India. We need to reciprocate this in equal measure.

  68. Gorki

    I am happy that sanity seems to be returning to the PTH and can start commenting again.

    Thanks Vajra, Milind, for your comments; I believe you among others, contributed in a big way to sooth ruffled feathers.

    YLH, I am glad you elaborated your position above. There is nothing there that I disagree with. I only want to repeat your own words above that when you say “Pakistan is not a country that easily gives to stereotyping” it applies in equal measure to India as well, perhaps even more. There is a small India, made up of the intellectually western oriented/educated elite, most of whom but not all are liberals like you and there is an India-Bharat, an emerging middle class made up of mostly young, upwardly mobile individuals who have bought into a dream and believe it that our time is coming. Many of these are new to this phenomenon and as such retain the crassness that comes with it. Then there is a large Bharat; you know about it , and have heard about it but have never heard from it. This is the largest segment. For these, discussions like above, the fine points about cricket and what movie stars say or do is only a dream, never a aprt of their lives. They exist, but barely and not much different than they did in 1931 when your and my hero, a certain Bhagat Singh was hanged in their name. These have a long way to go and I can assure you that taunitng Pakistan or Pakistanis is furthest from their mind.
    Thus when you say things like ‘you Indians etc.’ be clear whom you are refering to; because you see there are many Indians and believe it or not, a majority of us bear no illwill to you or your noble dreams and hope you succeed in all that young men like you are setting out to do for your land.
    Regards.

  69. updike

    to vajra

    I didn’t mean you about filthy language.
    You know who is (are) meant.

    BTW Cricket is against islam, it is unislamic. That can be proved. IPL has saved pakistanis from a big sin.

  70. Milind Kher

    @Gorki,

    Good to see you back. The “Large Bharat” that you are referring to is mostly concerned about whether their next meal is coming to them and whether they have a roof above their heads.

    The others that you referred to are not in favor of a conflict anyway.

    I think the people YLH is referring to are the rightwingers. They are an unfortunate reality that we have to live with.

  71. ylh

    Gorki sb it was never my intention and perhaps self control on my part is well advised.

    Nationalism is always a petty bourgeoisie concern. Hence my complaint is against that rising middle class’ excesses.

    I am sorry for using “indian”. I’d go so far as to say that for the poor India and Pakistan don’t exist. They are a nation unto themselves united by poverty and hunger…which is why Pakistan and India must work triply hard to deliver them.

    My original usage was Indian uber-nationalists (as opposed to even normal nationalists) and that is all I have to say in my defence.

    And let me add my voice to the condemnation of Punjab Assembly’s motion of disallowing passage to Indian goods to Afghanistan. This is ridiculous, nonsensical and idiotic. Only the poor suffer when such tit for tat is played. For all our umbrage at the IPL it is after all just a game.

  72. Milind Kher

    At the end of the day, we have to work to see that the vast majority of the population in our respective countries is benefited.

    I am sure that the IPL issue will get resolved much faster than we think and everybody will emerge happier.

    Let us keep up the good work of building bridges.

  73. updike

    To milind

    Do teach that vast population not to be so vast. You can’t feed an evergrowing population. The poor have to take moral and educational responsibility for their own poverty. If a poor man has more children than what he can feed or educate then why blame the society or the rich? Socialism has become a mental illness. Think also of the ecology.

    E.g. Pakistan has a water shortage because of too much reproduction. But they will use this shortage to blame and hate India. A large increase in criminality (including muslim terrorism) is because some leftist intellectuals are telling the poor that the poor are not to be blamed for their own poverty.

  74. Gorki

    Updike:

    I am sorry to say but you one sad sad individual, seeking attention, who has really nothing to say.

    Can I recommend a small break; perhaps to do some reading on the global population trends in the 19th and 20th centuries and its relationship with gender issues, healthcare, education, economics etc?

    Who knows, you may even come up with something interesting to say!

    Regards.

  75. updike

    To gorki

    I hope you learn to treat me as an adult and thus show your own maturity. Your condescension does not hurt me, but yourself. Superciliousness has become a habit with some participants in this forum.

    I have studied all these “gender issues, healthcare, education, economics..” to the extent that I could and see no honesty in them anymore. They are typical leftist infatuations to absolve and please the poor and the irresponsible. In fact not blaming the poor for their own poverty actually insults them. It creates the impression that they are/were all like innocent little children who could do nothing except be the victims of someone else’s conspiracies. Treat them as adults and put responsibility sqarely on their shoulders too. Dont’ press them into the position of the helpless ones who need your intercessions. Tell them in their faces that they are to be held responsible for their own frailities and idiocies. Elevate them to the status of adults by holding them FULLY (not just half-way) and SOLELY (not shirking out) responsible for their own miseries.

    Is this thought new to you? Then it surely is interesting enough for you.

  76. vajra

    @Milind Kher

    More than the Balkanisation of Pakistan, which won’t happen except in the opium dreams of saffron bigot fan-boys, we need to support those forward progressive elements in Pakistan who stand for democracy. We can’t do more than offer external support and sympathy, and to ensure that our own administrators do not take a short-sighted tit-for-tat view and mistakenly perpetuate a situation which is against the welfare of the common people of both nations.

    Second, we all need to understand, on both sides of the border, that the alternative to the kind of subterranean hostility that exists today need not be effusive bonhomie. A democratic Pakistan might continue to be a competitive, even an abrasive Pakistan. So long as they are not a violence-prone, terrorism-sponsoring, revanchist Pakistan, we should be happy. The relationship between Britain and France was once described by The Economist as one of mutual ‘amused disdain’. That doesn’t stop them from collaborating (or at least talking frequently and sincerely about collaborating) in all spheres of life. We should be happy if there is a democratic Pakistan. If it contains bigots, if it contains hyper-patriots, so be it. That is their problem, just as our own bigots and hyper-patriots are our problem. We need to take it in our stride, just as we need to take potentially hostile and deprecatory Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Nepalis, Chinese, Americans, British, whatever. I fail to see why their Pakistani origin should immediately inflame tempers all around. If you check militarist sites, you will find that the worst Indian-baiters are not Pakistanis, even on Pakistani sites, they are the Chinese and the Bangladeshis.

    So long as the present state of affairs is changed permanently, we should be happy. Put another way, I think it is unrealistic to look for friendship with another nation. We need not look for friendship with Pakistan, we should look for friendship with individual Pakistanis. And they reciprocally, recognising our own component of bigots and hyper-patriots, and a special breed, the supremely smug and self-assured New Indian, a pestilence for all nations including ours.

    These are subtle differences and do not affect our positions per se, but I thought them worth pointing out.

  77. Gorki

    Updike, you wrote:

    “I have studied all these “gender issues, healthcare, education, economics..” to the extent that I could and see no honesty in them anymore. They are typical leftist infatuations to absolve and please the poor and the irresponsible..”

    This is an extremely dumb statement betraying uncommon ignorance buttressed by extreme bias.

    The relationship between demographics and economic trends is not a leftist, rightist or any kind of ideology but a well understood economic development-demographic model called The Demographic Transition model which is an accepted scientific term arrived at by empiric observation of population trends using strict scientific principles.

    The DTM can be broken down in five stages depending on the state of economic development of a society. It is very hard to explain in detail to a novice or an untrained layman in a short post but simply speaking, it demonstrates that improving economic conditions in developing nations generates a drop in mortality, leading to a booming population. Eventually, development proceeds to a point at which fertility also drops, as children become consumption goods rather than production goods, as the importance of human capital investment in children increases, and as the opportunity cost of having children rises. It has held broadly true across the globe in all continents and almost all cultures.

    What this has meant that for much of the last half century there has been declining rates of natural population growth in developed countries combined with rapidly rising populations in developing nations. And this, in turn, has produced some major challenges for governments in developed and developing nations.

    All this makes fascinating reading and is of a special interest to economists, social scientists and various governmental, non governmental and UN bodies involved with policy, planning and predicting future trends.

    However I doubt it would be of much use to a smug individual like you who remains certain in his own beliefs, and like to dismiss any evidence to the contrary as leftist, rightist or some other kind of propaganda.

    Regards.

  78. karun

    Pakistan will go down a similar course. So this stereotyping of us as Arab-wannabe Islamists is blatantly unfair and quite ridiculous.

    The worry is how pakistan evolved in terms of religion from 1947-2009. perhaps that explains why the movement/development may not be linear like the french.

  79. ylh

    Karun,

    My friend your analytical skills and IQ are nothing to write home about.

    If you had read a bit of history of the world or if you actually did a class analysis …you’ll realize that religious evolution in Pakistan is much more linear than even France.

    The process Indian mullahs were worried about – gradual secularization as a natural economic process- is irrevocably in place.

  80. karun

    There is no question that in many of these India has surpassed Pakistan (though only marginally)… but should this mean that we are abused day in day out? After all these are all matters that have no final answer but are subject to troughs and peaks through out
    ***********************************************
    well truth be told, these are not marginal differences.(pls look beyond GDP PPP percapita)

    1. please plot a graph of INR and Pakistani Rupee from 1950’s to now and see for yourself (currency strength is an indicator of economic strength)

    2.) please see the current a/c situation of both countries (you will understand the necessity and importance of Indian Software Industry here.)

    3.) On the quality of Debt pls look at S&p and Moody ratings. There are no marginal differences here. India is investment grade pakistan is junk status. whats wrong in accepting facts?

    4.) Indian manufacturing (Auto/Pharma/Aerospace/design) is certainly not halwa by any standards. this will lead to exponential growth in gdp in sometimes.(by the way did you know for Ford the global hub of small car manufacturing is not China)

    Pls note that when GDP gets doubled in 10 years of what was achieved in 50 yrs, the rate of change becomes very high in current times. so the next 5-10 years the GDP growth may be exponentially high.

    for the last 20 -years there was no peak and trough. This has been a consistent story and will remain atleast so till 2035.

    As for abuse, i do not have any interest in that, i am interested in the correct representation of facts.

  81. karun

    current rates:

    USD/PKR = 84.28

    USD/INR = 46.3150

  82. ylh

    For more than forty years Pakistan was much more substantially ahead.

    In real terms your fancy manipulation of gdp per capita etc means jackshit. Most indians who come to Pakistan are struck by how much freer of poverty or how much more developed Pakistan is.

    So only idiot would claim these clever devices as example of substantial progress. But then we know you are exactly that.

  83. karun

    Most indians who come to Pakistan are struck by how much freer of poverty or how much more developed Pakistan is.
    *************************************************
    ok so now we will resort to subjective views (of course like faith cannot be challenged on grounds of reason, so does subjectivity)

    The economy my friend is not about tourists/parks.(perhaps on tourism also nothing much is left to say)

    The exchange rate implies competitiveness. so you know what does a pakistani importer would have to pay for the same good than his indian counterpart. or may be how much India pays vs Pakistan on Oil.(yes you can take advantage of your weaker exchange rate if you develop an export oriented economy but then its not easy, it will take serious effort)

    But wonder of wonders: why are u getting so defensive about it. Do i not know that there is poverty in India, but is that all?

  84. yasserlatifhamdani

    My dear IQ-challenged friend… the point is that these achievements you list are at the end of the day marginal achievements on any timeline …. I can assure you that only scoundrels will try and present this as a substantial achievement. Pakistan was ahead India on all this and more, consistently for no less than forty years. South Korea for example credits its turnaround to Ayub Khan’s five year plans – What does that mean now?

    Tell me… would India and Pakistan be classified in different categories … wouldn’t they both be called developing countries… aren’t subsistence issues, poverty , day to day issues the same …. have you achieved universal literacy, have you reduced MMR to zero? Is drinking water available to even half of the India population? or even one quarter? How does India compare on any scale to even a small country like Israel or Denmark? India’s achievements when compared to Pakistan are only marginal… and that too when you consider the wide gap in terms of development in 1947- India’s literacy and development indicators were when compared to west Pakistan in 1947 much higher … you massive achievement hardly counts for anything. If anything India has fallen behind.

    You say you know there is poverty in India… and that is still not enough to shut you up? You still want to take pride in how many billionairres you have? Are those billionairres paying you to take pride in them? Is Ambani going to employ you on floor 6 of his 2 billion dollar house?

    The problem with scoundrels is that they have no self worth and lack entirely in self esteem.

  85. karunx

    do not misuse your power as an admin.

    with power comes responsibility.

  86. yasserlatifhamdani

    Fine Karun you’ve shamed me…

    Well why don’t you post exactly what you posted earlier and I deleted so that we are clear on how I am misusing my authority as admin.

  87. karunx

    the very fact that i have to append an x after my name should tell everyone something.

  88. yasserlatifhamdani

    Agreed. Doesn’t answer my question though.

  89. karunx

    hmmm…..ok.

  90. updike

    To gorki

    You can be a good debater if you cut out the snide remarks and your condescension. You have to notice them yourself and delete them before you send the message.

    My main point was: don’t teach people (poor or rich) to blame others for their sufferings. Scientific studies may be true statistically but they have to be implemented and that requires political methods, even more so statesmanship. In this field the experience is as I have written. Politics and ideology should not overpower science, nor should science be used to ridicule political wisdom.

  91. Gorki

    Dear Karun:

    I want to make a couple of quick points.
    It is well and good to impress others with the indices of our national economic growth and even allow ourselves to feel good about them once in a while, but what we cannot forget is that we still have a long way to go. Long ago, one of the men whom you and I both admire, set an impossible task for us, the fortunate few educated and pampered Indians; ‘to wipe every tear from every eye’.

    In his landmark 1947 speech JLN acknowledged that it was impossible then but he was willing to give it all that he had in him. Unfortunately 63 years later it still seems a daunting task; for look at our number of people who are illiterate or are below the poverty line.

    I personally will allow myself to feel good once we can provide universal good quality education to all our school going kids, and also provide quality health care for all. That we may be better than someone by one parameter or another is a small comfort for any of us till we stop feeling uncomfortable taking our own kids back home lest they see kids their own age working on the streets of Delhi or Mumbai and start asking difficult to answer questions.

    The more important point that I want to make is that please look around the PTH and read for yourself the kind of comments that YLH and others have to deal with from people like Kashifat, Ummi and others. Notice that YLH is literally debating both sides. God forbid that if his kind is silenced, we will have to deal with the Kashifats of this world ourselves.

    It is this last idea that fills me with dread for the sake of the country that you and I both love. You are as smart man and I hope you will choose to fight the fights that is necessary and in our interest.
    Everything else is only academic in the end.

    Regards.

  92. updike

    What muslim societies (be they majority or minority muslim societies) really need is someone and some-many who point out the defects and deficiencies in islam. Best, if muslims do it thenselves. All debates and discussions are otherwise doomed to be just cyber-noise or India-Pak bouts of mutual denigration.

  93. Gorki

    “What muslim societies (be they majority or minority muslim societies) really need is someone and some-many who point out the defects and deficiencies in islam.”

    kashifiat Sahib, are you listening?
    This gentleman has an important message for people like you but keeps on stumbling on tame sites like the PTH.

    Kindly forward him your URL or better still, provide him your home address so that both of you kindred spirits can discuss such wieghty matters in a face to face manner.😉

    Regards.

  94. updike

    to gorki

    PTH is not a tame site.

    I also wrote that it is best if muslims do it (=exposing islam’s defects and deficiencies) themselves.

    Gorki, vajra etc. needs to examine their psyche honestly. They are more interested in downgrading hindus than in doing something honestly good for muslims.

    Whoever praises, defends or protects islam is not doing anything good for muslims. What muslims urgently need is the exposure of islam’s defects and deficiencies, without any softies for anyone.

    There is a turkish saying: “Friend speaks bitter”. The sweet-speaking flatterer is never the true friend.

  95. Gorki

    Come on kashifat Bhai, don’t be so coy.
    Your good friend speaketh😉

  96. updike

    To gorki

    I hope your bhai takes up the task of exposing the defects and deficiencies of islam. Everyting else will bring only more social illnesses and maladies and cyber-noise.

    After 1400 years of time and a huge amount of resources and human lives invested on islam we know with a great certainty that islam cannot bring about peace, justice or an honest, relaxed, non-violent, tolerant, broad-minded, modern, moderate, eco-friendly society.

  97. vajra

    @updike

    As a matter of fact, you are right. But you are right in a hideously perverse and distorted way.

    An agnostic such as I cannot believe the tenets of any religion without a great deal of doubt, which finally leads to the conclusion that we know so little about divinity and theogony and cosmogony and the rest of that, that it is better to suspend belief and disbelief and lead our lives according to principles that seem good and proper to us, in our own judgement. We are, if you examine what we call ourselves, the original sceptics, taking our name from a parallel of ‘a-gyani’, I do not know, I do not have the knowledge, in Greek, a gnosis, without the knowledge.

    But when we look at a religion, any religion, we do not look at it from the beginning with hostility or from the point of view of our own religion being superior, we look at it with a sense of reverence and wonder, even of hope that we will be ‘revealed’ the truth as believers appear to be revealed the truth.

    Those who have been revealed the truth are revealed the truth in a variety of ways. This cannot be disputed with the tools of logic, reason or scientific evaluation, as this revelation is beyond the material, and the tools of the material world do not apply.

    One variation of this revelation is also the revelation that all revelations are one, and that all paths are one.

    Going further into these aspects will take several books, and while some of us, notably Gorki, has already taken a committed view that explaining patiently to the ignorant or to the deficient in knowledge is a duty of those who know a little more, or even of those who know that they know so little, others have come to that position on his persuasion. We may not agree to invest our time, hence in a sense, our money, in such teaching.

    You may have noticed that after an initial angry reaction, I have taken you patiently through every one of your arguments and explained that they are mistaken – in original conceptualisation of the problem, in application of logical principles to its premises and conclusions or in fact. I believe that these are reasonable and successful arguments, for the simple reason that you have not mentioned a single word in opposition. Silence means consent, you surely know already.

    Now, before proceeding further, it is necessary to point out that you are coming from a position which is tainted. You are not interested in examining a religion in the hope that you may find your revelation there, but merely in order to prove it wrong and implicitly, as your earlier remarks have made very clear, to prove another version wrong. This is not argument, nor is it discussion: you are, in effect, preaching. You are preaching your religion by proving another, thereafter by widening the scope, all others wrong.

    There is nothing in that to worry about, but this is a perverted and distorted pattern of behaviour on PakTeaHouse, for the following reasons: this is not a religious pulpit, and people do not read this to get religious instruction. Secondly, you have concealed your preaching against Islam under the false claim that you are speaking of nationalities, of inter-state relations, of political and diplomatic considerations, of the issues that relate to governance and public ethics and morality, and the like. These are false claims, and your intention is instead a single-minded effort to prove Islam defective as a religion in order presumably to promote Hinduism.

    The point is that you have put forward many arguments, all have been refuted, but you still claim to have something to say. Is this reasonable?

    It is for these reasons that you should consider your options once again, and select from among them.

    Your options are to refrain from preaching a religious doctrine on PTH. If you wish to do so, as Gorki has pointed out already, there are those of a religious bent of mind, and you would be better advised to take your arguments and your point of view there.

    Your second option, and one that I will urge on the administration of PTH, is to be banned, as you really have nothing to say that is pertinent to PTH. You can sidestep these bans by changing your name from time to time, as you have already done once, but you will be found out and the ban extended to whichever new name you have adopted.

    But we too, as ordinary participants on PTH, have our options.

    As I have pointed out already, you have not responded to any single one of the arguments put forth. Until you do that, how can there be a discussion? It reduces itself merely to your iterating, then reiterating a point over and over again with no attention to what is being said to you, and apparently hoping that everyone will accept your point of view out of exhaustion.

    On the contrary, if you are not open to a discussion, then you presumably do not need any responses.

    Therefore our option is never to respond to you again.

    I propose the following to you: unless you are able to give reasonable responses to the replies that you have received, you will receive no further replies in future, at least not from me. That will no doubt gladden you, but before you start celebrating, please consider the actual position on the ground.

    Nobody, in practical terms, has responded to you except one Sikh and one Hindu.

    If, then, you manage to drive away those who are willing to discuss matters patiently with you, you are left with an audience of 0.

    With that in mind, decide. The key is to listen to what others are saying. Whatever shortcomings and defects you have ascribed, in your wisdom, to Islam, are precisely also your own shortcomings and defects. You say that Islam has no time for dissent; neither do you. As you might appreciate, this line of argument can be extended with mirthful results. Rather than that, I would prefer you to think and respond.

    This is my last communication to you directly, unless I receive a satisfactory response, as has been carefully and painstakingly defined above.

  98. vajra

    Regrettably the printers’ devil has struck, even though I was not printing. Please read the paragraph as amended below. Apologies.

    Now, before proceeding further, it is necessary to point out that you are coming from a position which is tainted. You are not interested in examining a religion in the hope that you may find your revelation there, but merely in order to prove it wrong and implicitly, as your earlier remarks have made very clear, to prove another version right. This is not argument, nor is it discussion: you are, in effect, preaching. You are preaching your religion by proving another, thereafter by widening the scope, all others wrong.

  99. karunx

    @Gorki

    India is a developing country with ‘miles to go’ before it can match the living standards of the developed world.

    But, realise that we have hit the correct path and the fruits will come sooner than later. If you realise how china has moved its people out from poverty in a decade or two, we are doing the same things, perhaps even better as we may learn from their experiences and failures.

    So, yes we do not have clean water supply for majority of our masses, we dont have a comprehensive and great healthcare facility (even the U.S doesn’t have it😉 ), but so what. it will be there few years down the line.

    It is as Vajra had mentioned earlier, being from a country which is making progress on various fronts does not make me apologetic at the same time. I am not flaunting our achievements in their face but i do not like misrepresentation of facts either.

    India and pakistan both being developing nations cannot be clubbed together at the moment on the growth trajectory. (may be because of the last 20 years)

    So advise for YLH (i hope he takes it in the right spirit)

    1) pls evaluate pakistan SWOT analysis on its own. Do not drag India into it unless you would like to learn something from it. The correct examples for you to follow will be perhaps: Turkey/Malaysia/Indonesia

    2) There is lot of work to do. So keep your head down and work hard. May god help you in your endeavours. This not the time for boasting. The time for it will come in the future.

  100. karunx

    advice i/o advise

  101. updike

    To vajra

    If you care to notice then your criticism is even more applicable to what you yourself write. You ascribe to me things which I have not done or said. I have never preached any hindu variant en lieu islam. An agnostic like you should have noticed that. We are talking away from one another.

    If I criticize religion A then I do not have to mix criticism of religion B into it. One at a time is ok. Since PTH is about Pakistan, and islam is the 97% pakistani indoctrinated religion, and hindus play no role at all in Pakistan (even Bhagwandas Rana plays no role as hindu but only as ex-judge of SC), I have to concentrate on islam alone. Since I understand hindu as a geographical-ethnic term (as was the case originally with this word) I am fully right in repeating (even ad nauseam, if you so think) that pakistanis are the real hindus. So I have to ask the basic question what causes pakistanis to so hate hindus and everything hindu? Who or what is teaching them that? I don’t compel you to answer my questions but only to take notice of them.

    Since I do not live in the Sindhu river basin, hence I am not a hindu. What affects me however is that pakistanis are taught in their islamic schools to hate and go kill/hurt hindus in India and elsewhere. And according to the definition by the killers and their handlers, I am a hindu, actually a case of mistaken identity for which I do not wish to be killed or hated.

    You have not seen the big difference between your and my axioms, definitions, postulates – but you let loose your temper against me to please the quislings of arabic imperialism. How these quislings of alien arabic islam must be enjoying it when you belittle me.

    I have no need to prove islam to be wrong – this work has been done by muslims during the past 1400 years. I don’t have to re-invent the punctured wheel (the wheel and the irreparable puncture in it). The conflicts among muslim are not of my making (or a result of any conspiracy by jews, hindus or USA) but a result of the (contradictions in) kuran and hadith. I am only pointing that out so as to reduce (or stop) further damage and waste and misleadment. Am I not supposed to do that?

    Is there in Pakistan a publication wherein islam is openly and safely criticized and exposed? If not then it is a sign of fascism having taken over. It is here that the concept of last prophet and last revelation has its most detrimental effect. This finality is the basis of fascism.

    Even if you understand me you will still have your need to please muslims and hence you will again let loose your condescensions upon me. I can live with that. I do not have to boycott anyone. I am not such a weakling that I have to boycott anyone (who is non-violent).

  102. vajra

    @updike

    You have made a couple of points which deserve detailed discussion, but it has to wait a few hours – deadlines intervene, alas.

    Again, I am quite happy to examine your arguments on your terms, after we reach agreement on what your terms mean, and for us to come to a conclusion based on such a discussion. Are you open to that?

    Third, I believe that this is best discussed off-line, although at the end, we can – either of us can – approach the PTH administrators to make the discussion available to PTH readers. Do you agree?

  103. D_a_n

    @updick…

    just to confirm what an un-informed, lying twit you actually are…the following deserves attention:

    ‘(even Bhagwandas Rana plays no role as hindu but only as ex-judge of SC)’

    not only is he an ex-Acting CJ..he is currently the chairman of the Federal Public Services Commission which is nothing to shake your fist at…

    now run along son..Im sure its time for a chaddi party somewhere in RSS-land…

  104. Ajay

    Here is a gem for you guys from Sohail Tanvir:
    http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=203760

    Apparently, Hinduoon ki zehniyat hi aisi hai..🙂

    Wonder why he wanted our money in the first place.

    Milind, are you around dost? Please do answer.

  105. Atul

    Here is a gem for you guys from Sohail Tanvir:
    http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=203760

    Apparently, Hinduoon ki zehniyat hi aisi hai..🙂

    Wonder why he wanted our money in the first place.

    Milind, are you around dost? Please do answer. This is Ajay.

  106. Gorki

    Karun:

    No two countries can follow a similar trajectory to growth and nationhood but there is a problem with comparing economic indicators. The first is that as YLH alluded to, the Indian lead is only recent and for the most part Pakistan has not done too badly. As a matter of fact Pakistan grew at an amazing 7% under Musharraf in his last years. The more important problem is that if one starts looking at economic indicators to assess for the right or wrong trajectory one can be horribly misled. After all Nazi Germany and militaristic Japan did deliver economic growth and Mussolini was famous for making the trains run on time.

    The problem with Pakistan IMHO, is not a lack of economic growth but a lack of democratic institutions and arbitrary power that seeks legitimacy by using, misusing and hijacking religious and nationalistic sentiments.
    India has a flawed democracy and the social justice evades millions but it is in this aspect that I believe we are ahead of Pakistan.
    A while ago when reports came out of a policeman having slapped the Pakistani Chief Justice under the military rule of Musharraf, a friend remarked to me privately that such a thing happening in India would be akin to the Earth stopping its revolution.

    YLH to his credit acknowledges that for his country to amount to anything they have to build a just and secular society based on checks and balances and a respect for laws. His opponents in Pakistan believe the only legitimacy they need comes from ideology.

    Last time such a state of affairs occurred, a midsized country brainwashed by a megalomaniac attacked their own large neighbor to the East. It took 30 million lives before they could be defeated.

    Think about it, we could today forget our little academic differences with YLH and support his larger cause or we may face a Stalingrad of our own a few years from now. Even the thought of it turns my stomach!!

    Vajra:

    I admire your quest but unfortunately am very pessimistic about the outcome. You see I don’t mind reasoning gently with youngsters like Hindu Sikh or Mustapha Shaban who though misguided carry an endearing idealism within them. One can reason with PMA Sahib, who may differ with you but is a gentleman and a scholar but one can’t reason with people Updike because his problem is that he is motivated neither by idealism nor has does he have any room for self doubt that comes with wisdom. He believes with every fiber of his body that Islam is an evil fascist ideology with no redeeming values and he is doing others a favor by
    purging it out of their system.

    When I compared him to kashifat I was not trying to be funny but I was being pragmatic. In their minds both these individuals are very certain and their quest is out of piety. It is this article of faith in them that can never be shaken by any reasonable arguments or evidence to the contrary. These two individuals are bookends, but there is no common ground between them.
    Like ancient Rome and Carthage, their struggle it to anihilate the other, each can never rest till they can sow salt in the others fields.

    All we can do for such people is to feel sorry for them and hope to protect impressionable youngsters from them.

    Regards.

  107. vajra

    @Gorki

    You are right in your assessment. I have been doing some research and the answers are depressing.

    There is no hope of eliciting a response. The views promoted are not original but derivative. Therefore a refutation produces a blank silence, or a furious onslaught of the original views, reproduced with hardly much change, but marinated with self-pity.

    I shall forward you the URLs separately, to avoid a hiatus as the external references are moderated.

    This has been a lesson to me. Never again.

  108. updike

    To vajra

    Yes. Let PTH management give you and gorki my email address. It will relieve them too of our feud.

    There are original derivatives and derived originals too.

    Don’t forget that in the hindu-muslim conflict the muslim is the original aggressor (physical, political, military, cultural, mental etc.), hence the hindu the permanent defender. This conflict takes place in India (homeland of hindus) and not in Makkah (hometown of islam). You cannot equate the arguments (or even the violence) of the defender with the arguments (or violence) of the aggressor.

    To D_a_n

    Bhagwandas Rana may be chairman of PSC, but can he say openly and publicly why he does not covert to islam (supposedly the final truth as per islamic propaganda that is accepted in Pakistan) and what his true opinion about islam (the ruling ideology) is? It has nothing to do with fist shaking. You as a muslim must yourself develop the critical intelligence to resort to the real criteria of judgment in such matters. It is not and should not be about scoring points against me.

    I am facing a lot of personal animosity and boycott on this forum and you should not aggrevate it.

  109. D_a_n

    @UpDICK

    let me attempt to spray some air freshener to relieve all and sundry the stench of your hate fueled mental farts:

    ‘but can he say openly and publicly why he does not covert to islam ‘

    – Why would he want to do that? Why would I or many many other people want him to do that unless he does so of his own free will?
    It is a private matter and so far I believe NO ONE in Pakistan has asked him that question…

    ‘and what his true opinion about islam (the ruling ideology) is? ‘

    – you know UpDick, this question alone tells everyone about your sick and demented outlook on life and irrational hatred towards Islam in toto. Any discussion with you is pointless. The only pleasure one can derive is to insult you.

    As far as Justice Rana’s ‘true’ opinion about Islam is concerned; firstly I believe that despite the poor conduct of Muslims in Pakistan he is intelligent enough to separate the actions of he faithful from the faith itself and he appreciates it for it’s place amongst the great faiths of our world.

    Secondly; even is he does NOT view Islam like I have stated above i’m sure he has the decency and good breeding not to insult an entire faith and unlike you does not have his head so far up his ass that he doesn’t know how to get it out.

    you have attempted to draw some kind of a parallel between your sick mentality and Justice Rana as some wierd way of showing us all that you speak for EVERY hindu on this planet. Pathetic.

    It is obvious that you were provided neither good breeding at home nor did nature gift you with something resembling a mediocre intellect. Hence we are left to suffer you inane and banal drivel and believe me its banal in the extreme. Nothing new or explosive about it.

    ‘I am facing a lot of personal animosity and boycott on this forum’

    wow! nothing gets by you does it Sherlock?

    how about taking an effing hint? As far as I know there is no one stopping you from sodding off into the sunset….go on then..do us all a favor.

    PS: Just curious. Does Modi get you off? Is there a 0900-CHADDI number for guys like you to call and listen to him cooing away in your ear while you work yourself up into a ‘premature explosive’ frenzy?

  110. updike

    To D_a_n

    Using filthy language may make you feel great. Labeling me or bunching may also make you feel great.

    But do try something else.

    How does islam treat ot intend to treat ex-muslims? The answer to this question proves islam is basically totalitarian and dishonest.

  111. Ranger

    The reason Pakistani players were not picked is because the corporate owners are scared about the next Pakistani terrorist attack on India, and once that happens, the last thing the Indian public would be doing is to cheer for teams with Pakistani players.

    And the mentality of typical Pakistanis are exemplified by Sohail Tanvir’s hateful comments against ‘those hindoos’….

  112. Ranger

    Just been reading some of the comments by Pakistanis here… they are basically using an old and tested tactic…. anybody seen to be remotely critical of Islam or Pakistan is instantly branded as a hardcore hindutwa fanatic…..

    …there is a lot about both Islam, Pakistan and Pakistanis that one could criticise. One need not have to be an RSS fanatic to do that. Reasonable people would realise that.

  113. updike

    To D_a_n

    you wrote: “As far as Justice Rana’s ‘true’ opinion about Islam is concerned; firstly I believe that despite the poor conduct of Muslims in Pakistan he is intelligent enough to separate the actions of he faithful from the faith itself and he appreciates it for it’s place amongst the great faiths of our world.”

    D_a_n, you are just making convenient assumptions. Separating the actions of the faithful from the faith can also mean tht one does not get fooled by the goodness of some muslims into thinking that this goodness is a result of islam, one does not get fooled into thinking that islam is good. How do you define greatness of a faith? By numbers, territorial extent, money, weapons, number of internal conflicts and amount of bloodshed, amount of self-deceit, power of intimidation, suppression of women, number of children per woman, falsifications and self-glorifications in history-writing etc. …how? No ideology is presently (2009-10) producing as much fascism , bloodshed, deceit, self-deceit, mental illnesses, fanaticism, obscurantism and craziness as is islam.

  114. Jasmine

    Sensible, sane Pakistanis will blame Lashkar-e-Tayiba and the jihadis for the absence of their cricketers in the IPL. Unfortunately, there is a dearth of Pakistanis who are either sane or sensible when it comes to this issue, and so they blame India and refuse to look inside at what their state created and what its state apparatus does. And so the default, reflex mode operates amongst Pakistanis, to become hysterical and bigoted and scream about Hindu perfidy and Indian unfairness – and therein lies the pathetic, colorful and cretinous problem of Pakistan.

  115. ylh

    I am guessing shahrukh khan is an insane Pakistani hiding in Mumbai.

    Jasmine …we have always spoken against the Islamists and Jehadis but people like you don’t have the moral courage to speak against Indian bigotry.

    The difference between Indians and Pakistanis to quote a great man is …pakistanis know their shit stinks, Indian devour theirs like pethay ka halwa.

  116. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    The massive amount of oil/ghee, sugar, maida and empty calories makes halwa as repulsive as shit.

    So, that actually brings everybody on par🙂

  117. updike

    Jasmine has writen the right stuff.

    For hundreds of years, and specially during the past 62 years, muslims in the indian subcontinent have learnt to denigrate/devilize hindus and bootlick/divinitize arabs and turks (especially the marauders and rapists among them).

    Jinnah (the second founder of Pakistan) too did the grave mistake of not saying anything openly critical and clearly rejetive about this perfidy built-in into the muslim mind. Nor did he lay down firmly in his will that the non-muslim population components in Pakistan (West and East) must be restored to their 1906 levels (the year when Muslim League was formed) in order for Pakistan to become a decent secular honest tolerant variegated state and nation.

    When I write this I get insults in return. But this clear analysis is what Pakistan needs to discuss and put into practise.

  118. hindu militant

    I stand up for minorities and against state persecution, you consider it legitimate action of the state.

    Really YLH? SRKs family comes from pakistan, so he has sympathy for pak. MY family also comes from lahore. There is a chowk named after me in lahore. Why cant I as a hindu go back and live in lahore.? Minority rights, my foot. Lahore was 55% hindu-sikh in 1946. I hate double standards. You muslims can be communal, and you expect we hindus to be secular? For what? After the IPL cricketers , now SRK is on my hitlist. Oh, I forgot, I am from mumbai, and active member of shivsena. He He He.

  119. ylh

    Yawn. You are a freak. Why don’t you take your business else where crook.