Bigotry In The Indian Premier League And The Bigger Picture

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

What I am about to write may hurt my Indian friends and I am sorry.  There are crooks, cranks and madmen in every country including India and there is no exaggeration in what I write.  I am merely writing from the heart as I always do.

Much has been said about the Indian Premier League’s decision to leave out Pakistani cricketers in the year that Pakistan is the defending World Twenty20 Cricket Champion.   Indians have come up with the stupidest excuses – excuses that cannot and should not make sense to any reasonable person.    But then we are not dealing with reasonable people.

Forgive me for being harsh,  but the truth is that Indians today are drunk with power and acting like the world’s newly rich.  All of a sudden a hitherto mal-nourished and largely backward people through no fault of their own, mired in religious superstition and other such meandering parochialisms, find themselves sitting on a lot of wealth (or so they think) primarily – though not completely- because  they have perfected the fine art and exact science of geometric population multiplication.   In the process they have learnt to use terms that they have not arrived at organically – secularism, democracy, economy- etc  but as events repeatedly show are clever ploys to claim a stake in the world.   A few hours after the world trade center bombing, I ran into a few Indians in New Jersey and shared my feelings of profound sorrow with them.   They responded with one line “America is finished now- India is the next world super power”- Again and Again I ran into Indians who repeated the same line to me .   To me this response sums up the Indian uber-nationalist psyche for better or for worse.  Ofcourse this is not to suggest that there aren’t any fine Indians- many manyIndians are genuine humanists and liberal secularists.  They are not driving Indian policy however.

When Mumbai happened (and Pakistan mind you has had its fairshare of Mumbais too- many of which can be traced to India as well according to Pakistan’s government),  India’s intelligentsia on a power-trip began to strategise how to hurt Pakistan and destroy it.  These are not random Zaid Hamid like offbase characters or Kashifiat type Jamaat-e-Islami crazies who are laughable at best.  Take a look at this brilliant professor at the IIM who wrote this ridiculous piece .   India’s crook, cranks and madmen are ordinary respectable members of society.   It is this thinking that is behind IPL franchises opting out of choosing Pakistani players.  (One must take heart from the fact that Indian captain said in 2009 WT20 that India would win the tournament because all its cricketers play in the IPL.   Pakistan ended up winning the tournament without even a single player playing in the IPL that year). 

The irony is that many Pakistanis don’t understand just how far we have squandered our natural advantage over India.  If there was ever a country in the subcontinent that had the potential of being a first world country, it was Pakistan.   Pakistan is a naturally resource-rich country which is also at the crossroads of world’s energy and commercial transport hubs.   Despite our many failures, we have a growing middle class, a free media and a growing consciousness which will transform Pakistan into a modern democracy.   We do however need to throw out this unnatural obsession with religion.   We should also sue for peace with India but as the IPL has proved abundantly, we need to look in all directions.

If we can put our house in order ,  Pakistan has the potential and ability to outdo India in every field and stand.  Everyone other than Pakistanis themselves knows it.  Indians know it and this is why you find so many Indian trolls baiting and abusing Pakistanis on Pakistani websites.  In the information age – catching up will never be the problem but first we have to make up our minds.  Do we want to live respectably with our heads held high?  That would mean hard choices – one of which is to do away with our own crooks, cranks and madmen who have kept us mired in pipedreams and shadows.

The question is who is going to bell the cat?  No instead we shall continue to persecute our minorities, let the mullahs lead us astray and watch ridiculous Indian fillums like 3 Idiots as a national past-time.

218 Comments

Filed under cricket, India, Pakistan, south asia

218 responses to “Bigotry In The Indian Premier League And The Bigger Picture

  1. Majumdar

    This article has been written by an impostor, no reference to either the G-man or the J-man in it.

    Regards

  2. updike

    ylh has a very thin skin.

    cricket is humbug – the less the better.

    He writes like a small hurt child: “If we can put our house in order , Pakistan has the potential and ability to outdo India in every field and stand.”

    This “if” is of a big order though. Pakistanis’ religion and ideology will not allow you to fulfil this “if” condition. But if this arabic religion and its holy-ness plus finality myth is removed then Pakistan becomes India. So it will only be a case of India outdoing India.

    Let’s get to doing that fast.

  3. AAENA

    (AAENA is our Old Indian Friend from New Delhi who poses as a Pakistani- PTH)

    ylh, inspite of my being a pakistani currently stationed in india, i have to say that
    1. three idiots was a good fillum
    2. if another mumbai happens before ipl, players to kya even we, the staff of pakemb, will be asked to pack off .tHE probability of another mumbai happening is big.why should the franchisees take such a big risk.This stigma of terrorism has rendered us pakistanis untouchables(ask my bro , who eperienced such humiliation in europe after 9/11)
    3. ylh, pakistan cannot compete with india because of her size.That india and china(if they dont split in future) will be superpowers is an axiom. So please stop behaving like an envious neighour.
    4. inshallah, we will have our own PPL where these indi s will not be allowed.

  4. PM

    YLH, you are not too old to learn. Your Indian friends are only showing true colors.
    Let me tell you my experience. I used to socialize with Indians, a very highly educated group and then the day India exploded the N. bombs, one of my Indian(ex) friend said that now we are going to have Akund Bharat otherwise your cities would be Nuked. All Indians in the group agreed with the proposition. I could see that all of them were dead serious. Since that day, I consider them low-life and treat them as such.

  5. Hayyer

    It is being bandied about that it was the risk of another 26/11 that stopped the bids. Perhaps it was and the IPL franchisees dont want to risk the tournament a second year running.
    I don’t think it is a government thing. Last year they kicked they refused to give security to the IPL. And it did give the visas promptly.
    However it is a shame that this happened. We were all looking forward to Pakistani participation this year. Remarkably insensitive of all concerned.

  6. updike

    To PM

    These indians were just trying to find out how you react. N. bombs are not going to bring about any akhand bharat. They just talked rot in order to tease you. Pity that your reaction was so dumb. May be you were eating too much of their pakodas and halva and these stingy “low life” indians wanted to stop you from visting their kanjush-miserly meets.

  7. Yogesh

    @updike
    “May be you were eating too much of their pakodas and halva and these stingy “low life” indians wanted to stop you from visting their kanjush-miserly meets.”

    If they were teasing him then they would have let him know that atleast after a day or two or if they were really teasing then they should have atleast said sorry considering it was a very bad joke.
    Also, teasing somebody in private is one thing but when a group of people start their supposedly “teasing” discussion especially on a topic that is very sensitive, it is considered unkind and also uncivilised.

    @ylh
    You are one angry old man.

  8. PM

    updike, you must have special Brahman ability to read other people’s mind separated by time and space. Go sell your tricks elsewhere.

  9. Majumdar

    Honestly, if you ask me about the IPL fracas, I am all at a loss. It seems that the real reason for not taking Pak players is either of the two. Either the GoI armtwisted IPL franchisees or that the franchisees themselves backed down because of the real threat that the GoI may not issue them visas. Whichever way you look at it, the blame falls back on GoI.

    Now what does GoI hope to achieve by doing this? Is it going to deter future Ajmal Kasais or elements of the Pak establishment from harbouring nefarious elements- I think not. The other argument given is that it cud have laid to law and order problems. Now that is a soft escape- after all, the GoI has a duty to enforce law and order. But even assuming that law and order problems were best avoided, why was it such a big issue. After all there is only one venue where serious problems cud be anticipated- Mumbai. Franchisees cud have voluntarily sit their Pak player(s) out.

    And why go about in such a surreptitious manner? Why not openly say that they will be denied visa? After all, if I understand correct, last year the GOP openly refused its players permission to play in IPL while it was being staged in India. No one blamed GOP for that. Going about in such a manner has not deflected responsibility for the act from GoI. Rather it has created animus in Pakistan (although some Indians argue that it is immaterial what Pakistanis think anyway) against IPL- a powerful emerging sports brand- and against IPL franchisees (some of whom happen to be owned by big Bollywood names) in addition to ill-will against GoI.

    Regards

    Tailpiece: One of the bigots who turned down Pakistani players is a great grandson of Pakistan’s founder.

  10. Ali Abbas

    @YLH,

    While the reasons the IPL gave may not make much sense, can we Pakistanis honestly say that our players had a chance in the IPL after Mumbai 26/11? Lets grow up and move on. Lets translate that “if” and stop shooting ourselves in the foot before we run our mouth off at others.

  11. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    They responded with one line “America is finished now- India is the next world super power”- Again and Again I ran into Indians who repeated the same line to me . To me this response sums up the Indian uber-nationalist psyche for better or for worse. Ofcourse this is not to suggest that there aren’t any fine Indians- many manyIndians are genuine humanists and liberal secularists. They are not driving Indian policy however.

    Well, maybe you are not meeting too many Indians who actually live in India- maybe you need to meet a more representative sample including people who actually run India. As a part of my professional life, I do meet a lot of people who in their own ways help run India- entrepreneurs, managers, bankers et al- by and large they are optimistic even exuberant about India but they certainly do not seem to think that India is about to be a superpower appear obsessed with Pakistan or about China (except in an business sense). They may be exuberant about India’s future but I dont think they are ignorant about India’s myriad challenges either- corruption, poverty, poor infrastructure, poor governance. I am sure the same thing is true about the people who drive India’s policies – people like MMS or PC or Pranab da.

    India’s crook, cranks and madmen are ordinary respectable members of society.

    That of course depends on we consider respectable members of society.

    Pakistan is a naturally resource-rich country. Pakistan has the potential and ability to outdo India in every field and stand. Indians know it and this is why you find so many Indian trolls baiting and abusing Pakistanis on Pakistani websites.

    The great part of Yasser Pai’s writings is that while it has great deal of information and analysis, that is not all. There is always dollops of entertainment as well.

    Regards

  12. karun2

    Pakistan has the potential and ability to outdo India in every field and stand.

    sometimes deep set desires come to the forefront. Be more careful lest you make a caricature of yourself and increasingly your writing. (again a very sloppy article)

  13. karun2

    No instead we shall continue to persecute our minorities, let the mullahs lead us astray and watch ridiculous Indian fillums like 3 Idiots as a national past-time.

    of cousre India fillums never have the sensitivity of Iranian films. aint it so?

    I have a feeling that you have expertise on 2 areas

    1. Jinnah
    2. Provocate and Pick up fight with Indians

  14. karun2

    errata: provoke

  15. SD

    @YLH ,
    First of all 3 Idiots has been one of the best “fillums” in a long time.
    While the franchisees were wrong in not picking up Pak players, ur reaction reflects the mindset of ur nation, stop being obssessive and extreme and start being a little objective and rational.

  16. yasserlatifhamdani

    Karun mian…

    I know Indians have long deluded themselves into thinking that Pakistan is alive only on aid…

    Ofcourse a logical and impartial review of economic performance of Pakistan and India for the last 60 years would be that Pakistan outperformed India for some 40 of those years… especially in those years when Pakistan did not get any aid at all.

  17. Majumdar

    Karun mian,

    Actually you are right. Yasser provokes a lot of fights (although they a majority of that is with fellow Pakistanis) and he is also an advocate.

    So that makes him a provocate

    Regards

  18. yasserlatifhamdani

    SD,

    Here is objectivity and rationality for you: Please note that it is a Pakistani website you are on.. My own experience is that Indians are utterly and totally obsessed with Pakistan… hence all the trolls who will now go wild on this website.

  19. karun2

    @YLH

    India used to outperform China in the 70’s. should we take solace from the fact both were in underperforming rot.

    well as far as i can see 90’s and especially Y2k brought opportunities to India, and am glad India/Indians grabbed it with both hands. There has been no looking back since then.

    but also must emphasise in all the years where perhaps you were outperforming us, we still built and nurtured a strong intellectual base in our centres of higher education which have catapulted us in the new millenium.

  20. yasserlatifhamdani

    Karun mian…

    Be realistic. You made the term “Hindu Rate of Growth” an acceptable economic term for sluggish growth.

    Your grand success is – outside all the PR and marketing- in real terms very marginal … even little old Israel outperforms you many times over … We in Pakistan have made a mess of things… and despite that mess, we are not far behind at all.

    My children’s children will look back and laugh at your children’s children… for having had an idiot for a grandfather.

  21. karun2

    I shouldn’t be writing this , since i am not a provocate😛

    @ylh
    You say:
    Take a look at this brilliant professor at the IIM who wrote this ridiculous piece

    a few moons ago, i read your article post 26/11 which said how ridiculous it was for Indians to suggest that ten terrorists arrived in a fishing boat from karachi to mumbai. it was replete with maps and calculations.

    I was just wondering if ‘kasab’ would never have been caught….

  22. karun2

    You made the term “Hindu Rate of Growth” an acceptable economic term for sluggish growth.

    so what should we say about japan’s lost decade,
    and deflationary economics?

    “Chinki’s Rate of -ve Growth”

    sorry to offend any chinkis around.

  23. yasserlatifhamdani

    The only problem dear half-brain is that the term “chinki rate of growth” does not exist… Hindu Rate of Growth is an established widely used term in the west.

  24. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    Hindu Rate of Growth is an established widely used term in the west.

    I think the West to do well to emulate the Hindoo rate of growth…….

    Regards

  25. AAENA

    ylh you lower the standards of discussions heldat pakteahouse. Stop being petulant.

  26. AAENA

    aaena might be living in newdelhi but people of over 100 differentnationalities live in newdelhi(esp along a path called Shantipath)

  27. Majumdar

    Aina bhai,

    aaena might be living in newdelhi but people of over 100 differentnationalities live in newdelhi(esp along a path called Shantipath)

    Why are you giving explanations b4 it is being asked from you?

    Regards

  28. Ally

    Yasser,

    It was not nice what happened in IPL but really stop this tit for tat that you have with the Indians, it takes from your respectability.

    We in Pak do have to get our house in order. Until then i think we should distance ourselves from India – not in a malicious way, just to get enough breathing space, dealing with India is expensive and wastes a lot of time and resources and manpower, something which we should use to fix our own country.

    Its better to disengage instead of having our politicians trying to ‘bring them to the table’ etc. Indians have too many demands for this, that and the next thing, Pakistan is in no position to fulfill their demands. Engaging with India ia almost always negative for Pakistan , and we dont need anymore negativity. They have shown us what they think and feel of us, it is for us to be sensible and move away.

  29. Majumdar

    Ally mian,

    Welcome to PTH.

    Regards

  30. R Malik

    I said it when we won the T20, and I’ll say it again:

    Lalit Modi! Cabron! Saluda el Campeon! (Repeat X2).

    YLH is angry like the rest of his contrymen, hence the slightly miffed (!) tone of his article. Lets talk about Cricket, and not get politics into it.

    Oops, Modi & Co beat us to it!

    Its just not Cricket.

    Alea jacta est.

  31. Ron


    Total number of players who took part in Auction:- 66

    Total Number of slots:- 11

    Total Number of players LEFT OUT :- 55!!!!!!

  32. Ron

    Firstly , non-availability of Pakistani players in the event of another terror strike is a REALITY!!!!

    Last year, its Pakistani govt. who FIRST ASKED its players not to travel to India for IPL 2( prior to its move to SA). Whats the gurantee that it will not repeat its performance?????

  33. Ron

    “”Indians know it and this is why you find so many Indian trolls baiting and abusing Pakistanis on Pakistani websites. “”

    Hahahahaha….YLH…please also see how many India related articles and BS are published in Pakistani websites.

    In websites like “pakspectator” , they have Pakistanis who single mindedly post only India related B.S. in post after post.

    “”Pakistan has the potential and ability to outdo India in every field and stand. “”

    Hahahahaha…..similarly even Bangladesh has potential to outdo Pakistan is every field and stand. Good governance can propel any country to greatness . Look at Taiwan , a barren country with NO natural resource still its a developed country.

  34. Sameet

    @PM,

    “I used to socialize with Indians, a very highly educated group and then the day India exploded the N. bombs, one of my Indian(ex) friend said that now we are going to have Akund Bharat otherwise your cities would be Nuked……”

    This just tells me that those Indian (ex) friend of yours/are unaware of basic geopolitical ground realities, and am sure there are lot of people on the other side of the fence thinking that the “bum” is a panacea for all the problems that Pakistan faces.

    Am not saying become friends with those “low lifes”, cause they are low lifes, and I have suffered them (both Indians and Pakistanis) too, but do be a bit forgiving and dont tar all Indians with the same brush.

    PS: In Barcelona, I met two pakistanis, one was working as a waiter in a restaurant, from Chakwal, of all places, who gave me extra attention simply because I was an Indian, and I met another Pakistani on the way to airport, from Rawalpindi, and he tried to convert me to Islam during the 15 min train ride to the airport and said a few nasty things about my country and my religion. It happens, shrug them off and dont let that colour your worldview.

  35. Tilsim

    Well for this Pakistani, non-invitation into IPL is not such a surprise given the tense climate over terrorism. The overly emotional reaction of Pakistan is also not surprising since we weigh everything from an izzat perspective rather than a rational approach. However I must say that the IPL decision, even if it had some commercial reasons, was an own goal. It increases the threat of terror from crazies instead of reducing it. It also increases anti-Indian feeling over here which is just what the extremists are hell bent on fostering. Don’t think India will be more secure if it shies away from taking the wider perspective into consideration.

  36. Tilsim

    Three idiots is a brilliant fillum.

  37. The writer very cleverly abuses India in the guise of trying to bemoan Pakistan’s current status.Yes, IPL incident is a deliberate snub
    The reason has been obliquely hinted, that nobody wants to have a Pakistani in the team , taking into consideration the situation prevailing over there.No cricketing reason whatsoever.
    No doubt Pakistani players are exciting to watch.Then you can nor be sure whether they will take part in the competition as and when demanded by the franchisees for their country is in such a shape that their President does not know who is running the country or what will happen to Pakistan or himself.Under the circumstances, it is prudent on the part of the franchisees not to have bought any of them, for we are talking of investments and returns , not charity.
    Added to this is the PCB’s propensity of recalling players, players in match fixing scandals, dope scandal.
    Even if it were to be because of souring relations between the two countries,what is wrong in India treating these players as persona non grata?Let Pakistan understand their chaotic , region and world destroying policies have a price.
    many over there will no doubt feign ignorance over Pakistan’s malicious acts against India.
    If you close your eyes, world shall not cease to exist.
    You do so, as has been proved, at your own peril.
    Further, Pakistan declares that Pakistan parliamentary panel will not be coming to India as a retort.
    You are Welcome to take such an action.
    Keep on doing things like this with all countries,say for example with Sri Lanka whose cricketers were attacked in Pakistan;US, because it is ‘Satan’;Bangladesh ,for it seceded from you;UK,EU and Japan for they are cordial with India.
    Please be content with China and North Korea: from the former you can get Nuclear Technology and later give Pakistan away in a platter;with North Korea to whom you can sell nuclear secrets.
    Remember, sins of rulers visit their subjects.

  38. Suv

    @YLH
    Just because Hindu rate of growth has become acceptable term it does not mean it is valid. Correct term would be “Socialist rate of growth” as disastrous economic policies adopted by India till 1991 was not based on Hindu tenets but the great dreamy socialist ideology.

    I understand your hurt sentiments and I feel IPL decision was wrong and most of editorials in Indian newspapers are condemning it but writing such things as “If there was ever a country in the subcontinent that had the potential of being a first world country, it was Pakistan.” is preposterous. Any country in subcontinent which delivers good governance, invests in human capital and follows free market economy has a chance of becoming a first world economy. Frankly speaking first world is a distant dream for all countries in subcontinent, by middle of this century they should strive to be a middle income country where most people can live their lives with dignity.

    Also having natural resources has proved to be a bane rather than boon in most countries. Many economists have postulated theory of “Resource Curse”. In fact most diversified economies and developed countries of Asia like Taiwan, South Korea and Japan have virtually no natural resources at all while most oil rich economies like Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola are perpetually tied to oil prices.

  39. Hayyer

    Ramanan50:
    “Even if it were to be because of souring relations between the two countries,what is wrong in India treating these players as persona non grata?”
    Please do not confuse the issue. The IPL is not India, It is a commercial concern.
    I do believe that a majority of Indians are disappointed by the decision, and the news media reflects that sentiment. Pakistani players were a huge success among fans when they played in the first series even if Afridi flopped.
    Also, IPL’s grotesque mismanagement should not be taken as an opportunity to vent anti-Pak sentiment.

  40. Jaydev

    pakteahouse,

    You are “overreacting!!!. Article’s body language is so revealing of Pak mindset. Pak is housing all terrorists in safe havenslike ..Dawood Ibrahim,Hafiz Sayid, Masoor Azar,Syed Sallaudin etc..who have killed 1000s of Indians..You PM Nawaz Sharif personally authorized Mumbai 1993 bomblasts by pak accounts..Your dogs have attacked our Parliment with impunity..also responsible for Mumbai 2006 train bomb blasts..and you have the gal to get insulted at some rejection of players by a private Indian company..PATHETIC..

  41. hoss

    I find this debate distasteful and I think an intelligent person like YHL should control his emotions before writing on topics like this.

    Let me ask a few questions here:

    1. No player should be an automatic shoo in any sport. Why Pakistanis assumed that they had a right to be selected?

    2. It was all about some private enterprises hiring some players and the money was going to the players and most of them would not have paid any tax anyway. How does that involve national pride?

    3. Remove India from the whole saga and replace that with Sri Lanka, would your reaction be the same?

    4. What if an international panel of selectors decided not to select Pak players?

    Finally, I think some of the fears are genuine and I am with Indians on this issue. A major Indian sporting event would have been under threat and no country would accept that situation.

    Ask yourself: had Pakistanis felt that a major sporting event in Pakistan could be in jeopardy, would they have selected Indian players?

    I feel that Pakistanis, like Indians are falling under the spell of false sense of national pride. These tendencies should not be encouraged.

    The pseudo-Nationalism that Indians and Pakistan display is like the urdu saying, ” ghar main nahin dannay, amman chali bhunanain”.
    People of two poorest countries of the world, pretend that they own the world.

  42. ylh

    Nonsense.

    Pakistan is the world champion in T-20 format.

    If there were security concerns the franchise owners could have refused to allow the auction for Pakistanis stating that as the reason. Instead they allowed the auction to go through. And then humiliated the world champions.

    There is nothing emotional about the above and it is sad that hoss uncle always has to be a contrarian even to logic.

  43. ylh

    Which international panel will reject Afridi, Umar Gul, umar akmal, muhammad amir and muhammad asif?

    Hoss uncle knows even less about cricket than he does of politics.

  44. Octavian

    Here’s an idea. Let’s build a huge wall from Kashmir down to Sindh and forget about them Easterners. I tellz you, don’t trust no Curry Injun. They don’t like us, they never have, never will. Almost without exception they think that Pakistanis are a nation of poor ‘brain washed ex-Indians’ who were duped by the British into creating Pakistan. Ignoring of course the fact that we separated after getting fed up with their politics.

    They genuinely believe that we are all, internally, desperate to rejoin Mother India, and that the only reason we haven’t is the Pak Army and Islamic fanaticism. I hate their pontificating pronouncements on all things Pakistani.

    The other day, a seemingly intelligent Keralite actually came up to me and had the audacity to say that Pakistan got all the best land, machinery, finance, etc because of partition! Imbecile.

    OH and who else is with me: This nauseous GEO “aman ki asha” business is driving me nuts! Grow a pair you imbeciles and stop jumping up and down, getting teary eyed about playing kabaddi with Indians. They certainly don’t

  45. ‘Hayyer’ -They are Indians first then businessmen.
    If it were to be a sound business proposition , they would, no doubt, have taken it; fact is Pakistan is a risky proposition , even to Pakistanis, with the exception of corrupt politicians.
    People of Pakistan must speak up, for rulers are destroying the country.
    Instead of trying to find fault with others let there be introspection.
    Why nobody is rebutting the point that Pakistani Players have not been selected, not because they are not wanted(in fact we, including me , watch a cricket match if Pakistan is involved and pray for Pakistan to win, excepting against India,of course,)
    but because of the anger, resentment and anguish of Indians over Pakistan’s polices against India and hoisting terrorist attacks on India(in fact Pakistan PM has stated to day-(22/1/10)-that “Pakistan can not prevent another Mumbai type attack because Pakistan could not protect even its citizens”_ and refusing to punish the guilty?
    How sound it would be for any one to do business with a country whose PM says his country can not protect its citizens?
    Why ask India that Pakistani players should be selected?Why do you want India to justify its action which reflects public anger over Pakistan’s inaction?
    When Pakistan can justify killings in another country, why not India express its anger?

  46. hoss

    “Which international panel will reject Afridi, Umar Gul, umar akmal, muhammad amir and muhammad asif?”

    They way they were handled last night, every one would.
    Even Pakistani team dropped Umar Gul. Ammir is still an unknown entity in T20 format. Afridi besides his two innings in T20 in England, has not done anything of note.
    Asif too was not very successful when he played in IPL. Umar Akmal hasn’t played much T20 at top level yet.

    They are not indispensable and are not shoo in for any team in the world except Pakistan.

  47. Hayyer

    Ramanan50:

    “Why nobody is rebutting the point that Pakistani Players have not been selected, not because they are not wanted………..but because of the anger, resentment and anguish of Indians over Pakistan’s polices against India and hoisting terrorist attacks on India………and refusing to punish the guilty?”

    Were relations with Pakistan any different when the first series was held? After 26/11 it was the Pakistan government that disallowed the players. From whence arises this new sensitivity to guilt and punishment? The average Indian did not ask the IPL to express his ‘resentment and anguish’ by excluding the Pakistanis.

    “They are Indians first then businessmen.
    If it were to be a sound business proposition , they would, no doubt, have taken it;”

    Are you suggesting that trade with Pakistan is not a sound business opportunity. No one seems to have told the Government that. They keep insisting on trade regardless while Pakistan demurs.

    “fact is Pakistan is a risky proposition , even to Pakistanis, with the exception of corrupt politicians.
    People of Pakistan must speak up, for rulers are destroying the country.”
    These comments of yours have nothing to do with cricket and the matter at hand.

    “Instead of trying to find fault with others let there be introspection.”

    Indeed! How about setting an example?

  48. I don’t agree with all the points YLH made in this post but wholeheartedly agree with him on the point that in order for Pakistan to move forward, we must stop this dangerous dance we’re playing with the religious fanatics and stop obsessing over India. India is a super power now (or soon will be) and how they got there is not important. We must face the facts and move on. If we are where we are today, we have no one else to blame but ourselves. Let’s stop blaming every donkey cart accident in Pakistan over India/Israel/etc etc and for once look ourselves in the mirror. Are we good people? Do we show kindness to our neighbors, ours servants, the animals, anything? As a nation, we are corrupt to the core, nepotism and favoritism is part of our cultural fabric, and measure of a man’s success is how big of a crook he is. This is not an Indian scheme. It is our own damn fault! Instead of educating the masses we showed them the way to the madrassah where the emphasis is on how many thousands of sawabs you will get for doing this thing or that and not that you should do it because its the right thing to do.

    We should sue for peace with India and not only because they’re much more pwoerful than us but because it’s the right thing to do. Why should we be at constant war with our neighbor. They do what every other country does in this world which is to proper by any means necessary. There are no friends, just political alliances. Let’s not expect too much from anyone and stand on our own feet so people will respect us. Respect is commanded, not given!

    On a final note, what IPL did was disgraceful but let’s just move on. The more we make a fuss about it, the more humiliating it gets. Best revenge would be to win the T20 World cup. Again!

  49. ylh

    Hoss why don’t you comment on something you know about. Pakistan is T-20 world champion and has the best T-20 record in the world. The players I have named are the best at the T-20 format and I am afraid one day and test performances has nothing to do with it.
    Performance last night was not at T-20.

    You don’t really have a point but want to waste my time on something you know you are wrong about.

  50. ylh

    Afridi is the best T-20 all rounder in the world. Umar Gul is the most successful T-20 bowler.

    In any fair auction these players would fetch the most money anywhere in the world.

    (Ofcourse not in Hoss’ imaginary world)… To first allow them to be auctioned and then humiliate them is bigotry at its worst. Pity those who are not calling a spade a spade now…

  51. hoss

    Like politics, I certainly know more about cricket than you. Pakistan is T20 champ but not individual players. They are good but look at their record when the played in IPL two years ago.

    Anyway this has nothing to do with how they play; the gist of the matter is that the presence of Pak players poses some risk and IPL owners were right in taking that risk. NO businessman would.
    I don’t see that as an issue of national pride over some private contract with some individual players who were going to represent not Pakistan but some teams in IPL.

  52. hoss

    Auction is nothing more than a selection process. They offered themselves for selection but were not selected due to security concerns. What is the big deal about that?

  53. ylh

    Uncle ji you only know jackshit both in politics and in cricket. It is a considered opinion and irrevocable one,

    You obviously haven’t followed either cricket or politics or you wouldn’t be making the kind of half baked illogical statements as is your wont.

    Shahid Afridi is the best in the game when it comes to T-20. Even Indian cricket lovers are condemning his exclusion. There is no more accurate a death bowler in world cricket than Umar Gul.
    I suggest you read stuff.

    As for your other comment already responded to it…

  54. hoss

    IPL owners were right in taking that risk. NO businessman would.

    Corr
    IPL owners were right in NOT taking that risk. NO businessman would.

  55. ved

    This was only cricket and private Co Ltd were involved. Although no one deny Cricketers talent from Pakistan, why these companies invest on those who are not guaranteed for their presence in entire period of IPL? Who will be responsible if they were attacked by some miscreants and jeoparadised security of all the players, public and stadium? Pakistan then again blame India, that this has been done by Indian agencies and most particularly RAW by instigation from Indina govt.

    Before answering your points I want to say something…..Pakistan was a part of Indian history except for last 60 years. So whatever you say for India is ditto for Pakistan.

    “Forgive me for being harsh, but the truth is that Indians today are drunk with power and acting like the world’s newly rich”

    Yes of course and everybody when in power act like that. USA is not doing that? India has been attacked from outside, why? because they thought they were most powerful. So what is bad in that? Misusing power is unacceptable. PCB and BCCI were two jigari friend till now. But after snatching away world cup matches from Pakistan, PCB and much of its public are not able to fathom it. They blame it to BCCI not on the terrorist who attacking daily.

    “all of a sudden a hitherto mal-nourished and largely backward people through no fault of their own, mired in religious superstition and other such meandering parochialisms, find themselves sitting on a lot of wealth (or so they think) primarily”

    India was in its much of history was a rich country. It was called golden bird in west. This richness attracted much of the outsiders. Greeks, Shakas, Kushanas, Hunas, Mangols and Muslims came from North-west and looted umpteem times. When they have not satisfied they ruled here. For what? only for wealth. Why Portuguese, French, and Britishers came here, not for any charity works, for its wealth. I for once pity on your history knowledge.

    “If there was ever a country in the subcontinent that had the potential of being a first world country, it was Pakistan. Pakistan is a naturally resource-rich country which is also at the crossroads of world’s energy and commercial transport hubs. ”

    This shows that your all above comments based on your jealousy with India not for any love for cricket or Pakistani cricketers.

    Thanks

  56. Ajay

    “Again and Again I ran into Indians who repeated the same line to me . To me this response sums up the Indian uber-nationalist psyche for better or for worse.”

    Now, now, YLH doesn’t that point towards that kind of people you socialize with. It’s a bit of stretch to conflate the nonsense of a few idiots to an entire country. Delusion affects all of us to an extent. You should know it better. Don’t get so cross about the IPL thing. As an Indian, I feel ashamed at what happened. Unfortunately, it’s the innocents who pay the price. For example, witness the sorry spectacle of our home minister providing dossiers after dossiers about the Bombay attack. What happened after that? Nothing. Can IPL’s fiasco compare to that humiliation that we have faced over last year or so. Civility is a two-way street. Of course, in all this, there is an assumption that Govt. of India arm twisted the IPL into excluding the Pakistani players.

    Sorry for posting this in a different name but looks like my comments are filtered now.

  57. hoss

    How many 50s Afridi has scored in IPL or outside of the two matches in England?
    His batting average is in teens.
    He is an exciting player but not the best.

  58. Ajay

    Hayyer,
    I agree with you, though, we do not live in an ideal world. This saga should have been anticipated. At the end of the day, IPL is only a private concern and I am sure, like any other private concern, they want to shy away from any issue that has a potential of getting messy. While a lot of people are disappointed, I am sure there are a lot of people too who have been equally disappointed and angry about how Bombay episode has been handled by Pakistan. I don’t think Pakistanis have any idea about how genuine is the anger about the Bombay massacre and the continuing skuldugerry of the Pakistani establishment. Most of us have been totally fed up. And, for people like Octavian, I have only one thing to say. Partition happened for a reason. Trust me, we do not want to undo it. Live and let live. Also, it’s the just pointless to argue that sport should be kept separate from politics. It has never been and I doubt if it’ll ever be separate from politics. I, for one, have been extremely irritated by how Imran Khan has been behaving blaming India for everything. Let’s work towards solving the bigger problems. The rest would take care of themselves.

  59. ylh

    Nonsense …if the issue was security or presence franchise owners should have stopped the auction of Pakistani players.

    Hoss- like I said you don’t know anything and are talking rubbish. You probably haven’t seen a single game of t-20 or you would know a thing or two.

    Your latest comment about Afridi shows your ignorance. Afridi is the best as an all rounder. Not only is he exciting with the bat he comes in at crucial moments to dislodge two or three players with his unique leg spin and is an above average fielder. Which is why I said that you know jackshit.

  60. ylh

    “Jealousy”

    I am not sure what there is to be jealous about India really.
    Besides it is the Indians who have acted like a bunch of insecure idiots in the IPL auction$

  61. hoss

    Sorry, but I don’t buy this best player bit at all. To be a best player one has to be good consistently but Afridi is not. There is something called form and some players when in from perform better. That does not make them the best player forever.

    After reading your posts, I gather that you have not played cricket at any level.

    They were not selected and don’t see that as hurting the national pride. The players pride might be but players are used to these things.

    It appears to me that people think Pakistani team was not selected, which is not the case. Why bother if a few players were not selected in a private set up.

    Now assume that there was no money involved, would the Pakistan players cared at all, if they were not selected?

    This is misplaced nationalism. You are right when you point out to the real issue that Pakistan faces. Player selection is not a real issue. It is a non sense issue.

  62. ylh

    Come now uncle after taking one look at you I can safely say you’ve not played any sport ever but should we go there …not a good idea.😉 I probably have forgotten more about cricket than you do.
    Indeed I have forgotten more about cricket than i have read about Jinnah …so that amoubts to something.
    Anyhow …I do know the meaning of all rounder which you evidently don’t.

    The truth is no matter how you try and slip out of it Afridi and Gul would have won the highest bid in any impartial auction and even most Indian commentators know it.

    So let’s drop this unnecessary banter and just conclude that you made a mistake.

  63. Ajay

    “if the issue was security or presence franchise owners should have stopped the auction of Pakistani players.”
    YLH,
    In that case, I guess, the IPL would have run foul with the rules. That is my hypothesis. As I said before, it was a needless humiliation and we feel bad for Afridi et al. On the other hand, if the objective was to humiliate the entire nation, I doubt if it served its purpose. Surely, an affront to Afridi or Asif did not constitute a disrespect to an entire nation. If it was an Imran, or an Akram, or a Tendulkar, that would be understandable, but I doubt if Afridi or Asif command the same following.
    I would also encourage you to read some other stuff beyond some unknown professor’s article. You should note that it was written in the immediate aftermath of Bombay attacks, which explains the tone of the article. Regrettably, there is a growing undercurrent of belief in India that we would not be allowed to live in peace until something concrete is done, and that Kashmir is just an excuse.

  64. hoss

    There is no need to go personal. I have no interest in this debate because I don’t think it is an issue. Who cares if they were not selected but for some fragile egos. Actually, I am alarmed by the brouhaha in Pakistani media.

    The same players after losing the test in Sidney were being chastised and rightly so.
    Now everyone thinks the same Umer akmal, Asif and Umar Gul have some special gift that was not recognized.

    This article would have been okay on Chowk but I thought PTH is for some serious discussions and away from the usual India and Pak bashing. Sorry, I was mistaken.

  65. hoss

    And btw, present is no indication was past looked liked. Achha khana aur achha peena sometime would do things to do:)

  66. hoss

    Corr
    And btw, present is no indication what past was. Achha khana aur achha peena sometime would do things to you🙂

  67. ylh

    I take my cricket very seriously.

    Pakistan’s best talent in cricket came in the 1970s when many Pakistani cricketers were playing county. On averages they had the best team in the world. In 1972 almost to the same month and date, Pakistan lost a test match in Sydney in identical conditions.

    That does not take away from the fact that Pakistani players were good.

    In this case it goes even farther … You are projecting performance in a test onto t20 limited overs.

    And sorry if you felt I got personal. So did you when you impugned my cricketing knowledge.

  68. Luq

    > India’s crook, cranks and madmen are
    > ordinary respectable members of society

    >mal-nourished and largely backward people
    >through no fault of their own, mired in religious
    >superstition and other such meandering
    >parochialisms

    YLH, care to explain why any right thinking pakistani player would make himself available to play in such a terrible place filled with pathetic people? (as described above)

    Or is it a case of sour grapes?

    Luq

  69. ylh

    Luq,
    I was never a fan of IPL personally.

    ICL was much better.

  70. ylh

    Btw if you read carefully my opinion of Pakistanis isn’t any higher than my opinion of Indians.

    I don’t think this fact needs to be re-stated. My writings are for everyone to see.

  71. hoss

    “Pakistan’s best talent in cricket came in the 1970s when many Pakistani cricketers were playing county. ”

    1972 team was expected to lose because those were really formative years for Pakistani cricket after many disasters in the 60s. Pakistanis barely played any test cricket in the 60s. Pakistani cricket actually turned around after 1976 Adelaide victory and the teams after that were good but never the best team. Windies were the best.

    80s and 90s saw some better teams from Pakistan but Pakistan is yet to win a test series down under.

    Cricket itself is different now. Players get better training they have better coaches and after so much cricket the captains should have better sense. The Sidney loss was all about captain and team not playing according to the situation and that tells me that despite all that coaching and number of games they play, the team is still not tactically smart enough to win
    games.

    You still have to think about this: Had Pakistani players cared if there was no money involved in IPL? The whole nation is up in arms because a few players did not get a chance to make some money. There is no national honor involved here. One must pick the right issues and should not be carried away by popular emotions.

    Was there going to be no commotion if IPL had selected one player out of 11?

  72. neel123

    The best part of this article is, the mask has fallen off YLH’s face, and the real one is there for all to see…. !

    It is clear now, he is no different form an average Pakistani bigot, harbouring unreal ambition vis a vis India.

  73. ylh

    What mask and what ambition… I want to see Pakistan successful. Is that a crime? Or are we supposed to bow down to your greatness because that is a bit of a problem for me.
    I never pretended to be anything but a patriot. If that upsets Indians then so be it. Go whine somewhere else.

    The only ones wearing masks are bigots like you.

    Also someone mentioned South Korea. South Korean dictator General Park credited South Korea’s turn around to Pakistan’s five year plans under Ayub. I am not sure if that is a good idea or a bad idea but I do know that before the 1965 war, Pakistan was well on its way … 65 was a collossal mistake by the dictator.

  74. nameshavereligions

    As ridiculous and incoherent as it may seem to you, I wish to write the below.

    Let’s talk some love please! Sometimes I wish that a meteorite or something takes out all humanity like it took out the Dinosaurs. With the exception of a few great saintly souls of the past and may be a handful today, most of us (including me) are fools, fools of the highest order because ‘we just don’t get it’.

    Our days, however long you may live (and may all of you live long and happy) are numbered and we are all sitting here talking about politics, nationalism, religion and all blah of this world. Let’s STOP this nonsense and make peace (with ourselves first).

    I also wish that there is new breed of “militant spiritualism” who speard true love with “vengeance”….alas such a thing cannot happen because love does not force….at best it persuades and pleads.

  75. Haq

    YLH,
    I am no expert on cricket but some of your observations about the Indian psyche seem to be spot on. I am living outside Pakistan and can count a number of Indians among my friends. They maybe sophisticated in a lot of areas but extremely close minded when it comes to Pakistan. While we may condemn our text books for shaping an anti-india world view but in Pakistan you get a very vocal counter view. And this is not just limited to english speaking brown sahibs living in Islamabad’s F8 or Lahore’s bridge colony. Unfortunately the Indian discourse is very homogenous when it comes to Pakistan. Their text books have a done a much better job at brain washing them then ours.

    Unquestioning belief in India as a super power is again an article of faith.

    Ideas like secularism and democracy are not organic……spot on. One high placed Indian professional in a gathering where political debate heated up a bit spontaneously uttered that “…all muslims should be packed off to Pakistan, this is what they deserve”.

    Granted the above is just my personal view and not based on any scientific polling, but it is surprising how you always get the same answers from an Indian

  76. Ajay

    YLH,
    Nobody denies your right to be a patriot. But it’s the ritualistic India bashing as a barometer of patriotism is what we object too. It just seems very pathetic. It’s time we grew up. I doubt if bulk of us are obsessed with comparison with Pakistan. We are secure in our identity as a inheritor of a great civilization that among others owes its origin to the bank of Indus(now in Pakistan). Nobody wants you to bow to us or to anyone else. But we would be eternally gratefully if you stop sending rascals periodically who bring misery and nothing else.

  77. Ajay

    Haq,
    At least, you concede that all we do is just talk. That is much better than sending philistines to routinely bomb and maim hundreds across the border. I’ll take the first option any day. Remember, it takes two to tango. Oh and before I forget, remember too, to talk to people from other countries and share their perceptions about Pakistan. You would be surprised at the level of homogeneity that they too display.

  78. PM

    Ajay,
    “We are secure in our identity as a inheritor of a great civilization that among others owes its origin to the bank of Indus(now in Pakistan)”.
    Come again. Where you been for thousands of years and now you come here to claim Indus valley. Only the the Zionist, your new masters, have the sick mind to lay similar claims.
    You really don’t have any self definition; you have been defined by Iranians, Central Asians, Arabs and lately Brits. In reality, you are for ever defined by Ganga dip. If you try pushing West, remember soon you will run into Hindu Kush. Ganga is the safest place for you.

  79. PM

    Ajay,
    Have you paid any attention to Indian Australian love fest recently?

  80. insight

    ylh:

    @If we can put our house in order , Pakistan has the potential and ability to outdo India in every field and stand.

    ——-If you cannot take care of this tiny Pakistan tea house, you very well cannot even think about putting bigger house i.e., Pakistan in order. What a mess PTH and your temper as a blogger speaks volumes about your sincerity to implement the suggestion you made.

    @the big if:

    If your aunt had balls she would have been your uncle. This is the beauty of if.

    Put PTH in order and then think about Pakistan.

    Nothing personal here.

  81. insight

    typo:

    What a mess PTH and your temper as a blogger speaks volumes about your lack of sincerity to implement the suggestion you made.

  82. vajra

    @neel123

    I was standing away from this rather unfortunate thread, but am compelled to ask why YLH has to justify being pro-Pakistan, and what mask you thought he was wearing earlier. He basically has been arguing for a secular, liberal, democratic Pakistan, on the grounds both that this is what was originally intended, and other models, unless very carefully thought through, will fail, both on grounds of ideology and on grounds of practicality; and secondly, that this vision of Pakistan is the correct and most desirable one for the future.

    Presumably you have no difficulty with this. Presumably you believe that there has been a colossal anti-Indian streak hidden inside him right through, and that has been unmasked only now. Since you have been cryptic in your remarks, we are forced to extrapolate to some extent.

    Puzzling, if this is your present position.

    He has never made any bones about the fact that he wishes to see Pakistan progress and prosper, though it never seems to be accompanied with a wish that India should reciprocally languish. That does not seem to be an unmasking which could cause such consternation. We must seek further afield perhaps.

    He has frequently accused Indians of being totally wrapped up in their self-importance, and of taking recent favourable developments to prove their point conclusively that the Indian model (whatever that might be) works better than Pakistan.

    He has a counter-argument, which is more or less that the situation was completely different before the distortions brought in by the misadventures of successive military dictators put Pakistan at a disadvantage. This is based on past Indian pace of development and relatively better pace of development in Pakistan.

    Again, considering that these are verifiable facts, it is difficult to understand the personal attacks being made. There are many, many issues on which he may be attacked, and he has acknowledged a few himself. This, surely, should not be one of them, since it is clear from the figures who is saying what.

    If your point is that anyone suggesting that their country might compete with India is an anti-Indian bigot, and you are proposing a new scheme of things where India is in fact a religion and opposition is blasphemous, or bigoted, your criticism of YLH is valid. Perhaps it is a little early to preach this new religion. Perhaps we should wait a few years more. And perhaps till then the citizens of Pakistan, Bhutan, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh (do we include Mauritius?) should be allowed to say things that indicate their desire for their country to prosper without being called bigots.

    @Haq

    I believe that you are comparing apples with oranges.

    You mentioned three points: that the Indian point of view is uniform and homogenous; that the Indian belief in India as a super-power is increasingly difficult to shake; and that Indian commitment to secularism and democracy are far frailer than we would like the world to believe, and falls off at the slightest provocation.

    In response, I wish to suggest that some small part of this may be due to a difference between Indians living abroad and Indians in India. You have compared the uniformity that you have encountered with the diversity and the dissent apparent in Islamabad’s F8 and Lahore’s Bridge Colony, and not limited to those. If you were to have an opportunity to check Indian opinions in India, you might find different evidence.

    I suggest that there is a certain ‘coming together’ and an unwillingness to break ranks in the face of persons from other countries, and I suggest that this is aggravated in the case of those in conversation with a Pakistani. Certainly dissent is alive and well in India.

    Secondly, the Indian belief in India as a super-power. This may be irritating, but surely not particularly harmful. I agree that it makes for boring conversation.

    May I lighten your mood by quoting a Punch cartoon from the period of WWI (the First)? It showed a prosperous German burgher in a Berlin street, greeting his friend, another prosperous German burgher, and one asks the other, “So, what is the news in the daily papers today?” The other answers dolefully,”Oh, the same as always. Victory, victory and yet another victory!”

    You will understand that the British smile at this pompous self-belief of the Germans, even at a time when they were sweeping all before them, was a smile with the teeth decidedly on edge. I can imagine your teeth being endangered for similar reasons, but can only request you to smile at the bumptiousness encountered.

    On a personal note, I read the cartoon more than fifty years after it was first published, in order to allay any misgivings that you may have.

    The third point is perhaps the most serious of the three. It is necessary to know two things: there is an active and vocal right wing, particularly active among the middle classes, especially the ‘new’ middle classes, endowed and empowered by their access to rich salaries and prized postings, in turn due to a completely lop-sided technical education. We are fortunate in that this right wing segment is counteracted by the very practical attitudes of the Indian man in the street, which is not the men and women you might have met abroad.

    You will encounter many such on PTH as well.

    I cannot advise you on how to react to these; for me, it is part of the struggle that we are engaged in, on the Indian side. You cannot help, though you may certainly sympathise, just as we cannot help you directly in your struggle, though we just as surely sympathise with it. My personal responses to these persons are on record at various places, and I can assure you that these are not totally unrepresentative responses.

    Finally, on your homogeneity of response point.

    This is something very, very interesting which has been observed before, and it is worth delving into, from an Indian point of view. Why is it that in India, the administration, the media and public opinion among the middle classes and some sections of the working classes are so closely in sync? Certainly, some parts of recent history are taken for granted, and only recently have we received rather unsettling, very disturbing evidence that what we were taught was the correct picture was not in fact the correct picture. However, there seems to be more to it than that, and it needs a separate discussion to cover it.

    In the short term, I can only offer you consolation, and request you to keep smiling, in the face of these provocations, and hope to meet a Gorki instead of these yobs.

  83. FQ

    @Jaydev
    “Pak is housing all terrorists in safe havens… also responsible for Mumbai 2006 train bomb blasts…”

    And how does India respond, by not allowing its Cricket players to play. Why afraid that we will whoop your ass again?

    Pakistan should send the Taliban to Kashmir… They would kill (literally) for the chance. You Indians don’t have any idea about the reality. Pakistan stops cross border infiltration and this is the response…

  84. ylh

    So much flailing and wailing.

    Very enjoyable. Carry on gentlemen.

    Vajra,

    Thanks.

  85. Suv

    @PM
    We have been in this suncontinent for all this while. Yunan-o-Misr-o-Roma sab mit gaye jahan se
    Ab tak magar hai baaki naam-o-nishan hamara

    India(subcontinent) is the only place where there is a cultural continuity. India was never defined by all people you mentioned but it successfully assimilated all these influences and retained its identity.

  86. ylh

    I especially love the comment by the genius who suggested I put PTH in order before I speak about Pakistan. I am not sure what that means but pure genius.

  87. Luq

    >Btw if you read carefully my opinion of Pakistanis
    >isn’t any higher than my opinion of Indians.

    Indians nahin pasand, pakistanis bhi nahin, naahi yeh siyasat, na yeh judiciary, na amreeki na koi aur.

    Your attitude towards everyone else reminds one of the song from pyaasa. (and reminds me of myself a few years back.
    Anyway Sahir Ludhyanvi if I am not wrong wrote these…..

    jalaa do, jalaa do ise phuunk Daalo ye duniyaa
    mere saamane se hataa lo ye duniyaa
    tumhaarii hai tum hii sambhalo ye duniyaa, ye duniyaa agar mil bhii jaaye to kyaa hai

    Luq.

    And again in full force……….

    ye mahalo.n, ye taKto.n, ye taajo.n kii duniyaa
    ye inasaa.n ke dushman samaajo.n kii duniyaa
    ye daulat ke bhuukhe rivaazo.n kii duniyaa
    ye duniyaa agar mil bhii jaaye to kyaa hai

    har ek jism ghaayal, har ek ruh pyaasii
    nigaaho me.n ulajhan, dilo.n me udaasii
    ye duniyaa hai yaa aalam-e-badahavaasii
    ye duniyaa …

    jahaa.n ek khilaunaa hai inasaa.n kii hastii
    ye bastii hai murdaa-parasto.n kii bastii
    jahaa.n aur jiivan se hai maut sastii
    ye duniyaa …

    javaanii bhaTakatii hai bezaar banakar
    javaa.n jism sajate hai baazaar banakar
    jahaa.n pyaar hotaa hai vyaapaar banakar
    ye duniyaa …

    ye duniyaa jahaa.n aadamii kuchh nahii.n hai
    vafaa kuchh nahii.n, dostii kuchh nahii.n hai
    jahaa.n pyaar ki kadr hii kuchh nahii.n hai
    ye duniyaa …

    jalaa do, jalaa do ise phuu.nk Daalo ye duniyaa
    mere saamane se haTaa lo ye duniyaa
    tumhaarii hai tum hii sambhalo ye duniyaa, ye duniyaa …

  88. ylh

    Jaydev!

    Could you point to a document whereby I can learn more about this Nawaz Sharif business you wrote about…

  89. ylh

    Luq mian… My spiritual pir has taught me to take things on their merit. Which is why I defend what is right about Pakistan, India and the US and condemn what is wrong.

  90. ylh

    PS I fought for the judiciary through out. I even supported the short order but if those judges act like a bunch of establishment stooges now …shouldn’t I mention it.

  91. Well said vajra. But I would reply to your note to neel by pointing out that the historical pace of development has varied considerably across India. And the economic growth in the recent years (though over-hyped sometimes) has to an extent been based on the relative success of certain regions. Union Governments tax revenues have grown six-fold in the last decade, so there certainly seems to be more money floating around these days but whether it will be used to better the lives of the majority is a big question.

    I would need more evidence from you on the right wing nature of the new middle classes claim, recent elections dont point to this and the English news media, though right wing in a foreign policy sense is quite anti right-wing in the domestic sense.

  92. Dev

    Oh comeon , the IPL franchisee owners are “non state” actors. The Govt. of India has nothing to do with degrading the Pakistani cricketers.

  93. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    I have come into this a little late. If I were in your place, as a patriotic Pakistani, I would have felt very upset too.

    However, IPL has its constraints and compulsions too. Today, the fact that Kasab has not been hanged and that LeT and JeM have not been reined in is an irritant for every Indian.

    Therefore, if IPL were to welcome Pakistani cricketers it would possibly face a lot of hostility too.

    There are a lot of positive feelings we all have towards each other, but then, these are the realities we have to live with too.

  94. PM

    Now that Bob Gates has approved Indian aggression against Pakistan, when is the next false flag operation coming? Gates already knows that it is going to be AlQuaeda, because he has buddies at highest level.

  95. Wsmith

    @FQ

    “And how does India respond, by not allowing its Cricket players to play. Why afraid that we will whoop your ass again?”

    And you wonder why you are a paraiah state…

  96. FQ

    @Wsmith
    I think possibly the subtlety is lost on you. In the next sentence I mention that Pakistan has stopped cross border infiltration, to make a point.

    What Indians should realize is the complexity of the situation in Pakistan. The Pakistan Army is actively fighting the same people who would like to attack India. These groups owe their existence to the perceived threat from India.

    Today’s reality is that Terror groups exist in all countries. To blame a government which is fighting to get rid of them, for controlling them is absurd.

    I am a rational western educated Pakistani but at this times I am furious and frustrated with India. India and Pakistan need to be partners in this mess, not adversaries.

    We are a transitioning society; media, judiciary, civil society, politics, army, US all interacting in complex ways.

    I don’t want Pakistan and India to pick a fight; but I do know that if they do, Pakistan will not fare well, but it will take India down with it. That is the case with mostly all Pakistanis. For as bad as our country is, we love it, we will defend it, and we get hurt when it is disrespected (as I am sure you feel about yours). But in a matter of sport, when our players are world champions, to snub them for politics sake actually leaves a negative impression, when the need for confidence building is maximum.

    India owes its stability to a strong, stable and prosperous Pakistan. Cross Border infiltration will probably start again in Kashmir, and given the recent activity in Indian Kashmir, it may possibly be fiercer. Pakistan got nothing for trying to help India out, (infiltration down in Kashmir, pre-paid phones allowed again etc) other than being accused of not helping India out, so why bother helping…

    India is still a 3rd world country, but its already intoxicated on its perceived development. Imagine if India becomes an actual developed country. I wonder where Hitler got his ideas from… Thank God Pakistan has the ability to put up a fight.

  97. Shamsher

    YLH,

    Here are the links and snippets which ALLUDES to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s direct involvement in approving 1993 serial Bombay Blasts.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/oct/30varsha.htm

    “Muneer Ahmed’s book, published in Pakistan in 1997, which avers that the former president, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, had rebuked the then PM Nawaz Sharif for unleashing the ISI to take on Operation Bombay bomb blasts in 1993”

    There is another one:
    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2003/09/12/stories/2003091200110800.htm

    “The 1993 Bombay blasts were personally approved by then Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, and executed by his fundamentalist ISI Chief Gen Javed Nasir, who now heads the so-called Pakistan Gurudwara Prabhandak Committee (PGPC).”
    -G . Parthasarathy, Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan

    I know you will contest this.

    However, even if Nawaz Sharif did not approve Bombay blasts, just 5 years later, he did directly approve Kargil invasion by covert Pakistani forces – only months after he had received PM Vajpayee in Lahore for the ill-fated Lahore peace process (which was a more radical step with potentially serious repercussions to both Pakistan and India).

    This is given in the detailed analysis by then PAF Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail. He was directly involved with interacting with political leadership (Nawaz Sharif) and military preparations of PAF.

    His account was widely published in journals and praised as brilliant and incisive (even at PTH). Here is the link from PTH itself:

    https://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/paf-in-kargil-a-paf-warrior-speaks-out/

    Here is a snippet from that paper:

    “It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were the COAS : General Pervez Musharraf, Commander 10 Corps: Lt General Mehmud Ahmed and Commander Force Command Northern Areas: Maj Gen Javed Hasan. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be suckered by the chicanery. It fell to the half-wit of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation. “General sahib, bismillah karen…” is how he is supposed to have given the go ahead, not withstanding the denials he keeps issuing every solar eclipse.”

    This account from Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is in direct contradiction to what you said in your post “Pakistan and US – A balancing act”:

    “In 1999, the right wing Muslim nationalist PML-N and right Hindu Nationalist BJP had turned a remarkable new leaf in Indo-Pak relations, when a military coup was staged against the peace process- first through an act of war and then through a direct coup in Islamabad. What followed was a military dictatorship in Pakistan which came to be one of the most closest US allies in Pakistan’s history.

    You would have to come up with some way to reconcile these two differing accounts.

    I do not know if Nawaz Sharif authorized Bombay serial blasts – but I have no problem in believing that he did have the capacity to do that.

    It is pertinent to note that India enjoyed improved relations with Pakistan under Gen Pervez Musharraf. However, under both Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan-India relations were at nadir (except for false starts like Lahore peace process)

  98. Haq

    Ajay,

    Training and arming mukti bahnis in East Pakistan, being in bed with LTTE and supporting terrorist attacks in Balochistan and rest of Pakistan is not mere talk. This is exactly what I was trying to say, Indians largely are blind to the fire they are playing with. You have just reniforced my point.

    Vajra,
    For the sake of our region I hope what you are saying is correct. So far I have not seen evidence of this in my intereaction with Indians.

    But then my expereince is anecdotal and not based on scientific evidence.

  99. Tilsim

    @Ally @ Asif

    I agree with you 100%. This India/Pak mutual bashing session is very poor. Ladies, please : stop, take a deep breath, reflect and move on to your best, not basest thoughts. We need this display of peacock behaviour on both sides like a hole in the head. Smile please. Let’s build together. No blame game. There you go, wasn’t too difficult, was it?

  100. Rune

    100th comment on this inane topic. Yay!

  101. ylh

    Shamsher,

    I suggest you revisit history again. As for whether he is capable of serial blasts etc …not any more than your leadership.

    I find it strange that Indians come here and act all pious and holy.

  102. vajra

    @Haq

    For the sake of our region, I too hope that I will be proved correct, at the end of the day. If any day, we have an opportunity of your coming to India, you will see – and hear – for yourself. Until then, let us hope that I am right and you are wrong. I am sure that this is one case where you will be happy to be wrong.

  103. Shamsher

    @YLH

    “Could you point to a document whereby I can learn more about this Nawaz Sharif business you wrote about…”

    Well, you yourself asked for more information on “this Nawaz Sharif business”.

    And I gave it to you!!

    Now you have a different problem – that Indians come and act pious and holy. If Indians act as “bigots” and unreasonable, then too you have a problem.

    What exactly is your problem??? I think you yourself are a problem child.

  104. yasserlatifhamdani

    Shamsher mian,

    The only real chance India had for peace with Pakistan was in 1999 under Nawaz Sharif. I am not an NS fan by any means… infact I have always voted PPP …

    So your comment about Musharraf etc shows just how clueless Indians are about the internal dynamics of Pakistan.

    As for your personal attack on me… your response makes no sense whatsoever… but then you Indians have mastered the art of talking out of your rear orifice.

  105. Milind Kher

    The IPL thing seems to have really hurt. Quite understandable. And unfortunate too.

    The cricketers do not have anything to do with acts of terror or insurgency and other related activities. We will positively miss the Pakistani cricketers.

    However, this only underscores what a complex relationship it has become. Aman ki Asha on the one hand and this on the other.

  106. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Milind…

    “aman ka asha on the one hand and this”

    There are some folk who are presenting this as yet another example of… baghal mein churi munh mein ram ram.

    All I can say is that Indians should really learn a lesson for I am someone who wants peace with India, trade, better relations, people to people contact, bhai chara, joint defence, energy pipelines…. etc etc. If this is my reaction … you can imagine what other elements are making of this.

    So forget the so called peaceniks who would say anything to win brownie points… they are not representative of Pakistani sentiment… for better or worse we share this subcontinent and we must save it from this mutual acrimony.

    Instead of abusing me… try and understand that this is something every Pakistani worth his salt has the same view on…in various degrees of intensity.

  107. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    I am not abusing you. Far from it, I understand what you feel. My mind goes back to the videos of Zaid Hamid and the 13 year old girl.

    I found the 13 year girl far more virulent. And it is indeed sad to see so many people adopting the right wing hardline.

    I know this may ruffle a lot of feathers, but I find that atheists and agnostics are substantially more humane and cooperative than people who believe they can get away with anything just because of their pathetic attempts to bribe God with prayers and fasting.

    This applies to ritualists of all religions. A very sad situation..

  108. vajra

    @Milind Kher

    This is a cock-up of major proportions. Assuming that there were genuine reasons to take such a step, what was the difficulty in contacting each Pakistani player involved individually and explaining the circumstances? After enlisting the help of the Pakistani Board to break the news to the players tactfully and without causing disappointment? Why were they asked to get into the auction at all? When did it occur to these bright minds that they would endanger themselves, the spectators and all other players by enlisting Pakistani players? Why was this not thought through before the entire rigmarole?

    We will never get answers to these, unfortunately.

    It is a mystery why this decision had to be implemented in such a cavalier fashion and with a maximum of callousness and indignity.

    The only good thing to emerge out of this discussion is, or rather the only good things are the last two paragraphs of yours. Bliss! We shall make an agnostic of you yet.

  109. Milind Kher

    @Vajra,

    I agree with you completely on the shoddy way in which this entire IPL thing was conducted. Jingoism is the last thing that we would like to be identified with.

    Apropos atheism and agnosticism, the votaries of this practice goodness for its intrinsic worth rather than for any consequences of heaven and hell. I like that about them.

    Religious discrimination of any kind is the worst sin possible. When the Creator does not discriminate, who are we to practice discrimination?

    It is a different matter that you do not believe in a Creator. Yet, you will understand my sentiment🙂

  110. Ummi

    wow!

    The current childish debate is the result of secularism. See how fanatics of a secular country are fighting with a fanatic secular of my country.

    @All Indians: First get a “proper” Army chief rather than a deaf one who once got over drunk and claimed to finish up Pakistan and China within 96 hours.

    That idiot and deaf Army chief would be a fan of Sunil Shetty and Suny Deol and would have thought that bth of them were part of the platoon. lol

  111. wsmith

    @FQ

    “The Pakistan Army is actively fighting the same people who would like to attack India.”

    Who do you mean exactly? The Taliban ? Are these the guys who want to attack India? Because they are the guys you are fighting now. What about their cousins in Kashmir? The groups who “owe their existence to the percieved threat from India?”

    I dont want to drag this discussion down to the level of the usual mudslinging that these discussions usually descend into. YLH and you and all the others are right to feel snubbed/offended, much the same way the Indians on this forum would be expected to react to YLH’s childish prattle.

    So my humble advice – stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get on with it.

  112. wsmith

    “Imagine if India becomes an actual developed country. I wonder where Hitler got his ideas from… ”
    More friendly advice FQ – why don’t you look up Godwin’s law and tell me what you think of your Hitler reference?

  113. Ron

    @@ Ummi dear

    Where did u find “secularism” here??

    Go and listen to your mamu “Zaid Hamid” ….

  114. vajra

    @WSmith

    I am not sure that invocation of Godwin’s Law does not amount to invoking its consequences as a second derivative.

  115. insight

    @All of a sudden a hitherto mal-nourished and largely backward people through no fault of their own, mired in religious superstition and other such meandering parochialisms, find themselves sitting on a lot of wealth (or so they think) primarily – though not completely- because they have perfected the fine art and exact science of geometric population multiplication.”
    -ylh

    –What jargon!

    Which particular religion you are talking here? I will not make a guess here. Any day religious superstition is better than religious fundamentalism; at least it is harmelss.

    According to your hypthesis, poor in Pakistan should stay poor since they cannot handle sudden wealth (unless it is true for India only). Are you an example from Pakistan of your hypthesis who got rich, bought a computer and playing piano on the keyboard like a kid with a new toy and are misusing writer’s independence without bothering the basic decency in the name of open discussion?

    People like you who cannot talk to others properly and are prone to jumpy conclusions are nightmare as far as Pakistan’s problem solving is concerned. Perhaps you have are prejudiced due to the kind of education system you have been subjected to.

    This SDPI report from Pak scholars at page 67 says: “A deeper examination of the present Pakistan Studies, Social Studies, History, Civics and Urdu textbooks reveals that the Hindus are uniformly portrayed in them as backward and superstitious.”

    http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

    Also read p.81.

    Khuda Hafiz

  116. googly

    @That idiot and deaf Army chief would be a fan of Sunil Shetty and Suny Deol and would have thought that bth of them were part of the platoon. lol
    –Ummi

    –lahaul wila quwat!!!
    Such a culture Influence of India!

  117. googly

    @All of a sudden a hitherto mal-nourished and largely backward people through no fault of their own, mired in religious superstition and other such meandering parochialisms, find themselves sitting on a lot of wealth (or so they think) primarily – though not completely- because they have perfected the fine art and exact science of geometric population multiplication.”
    -ylh

    –What jargon!

    Which particular religion are you referring to? I will not make a guess here about religion but any day religious superstition is better than religious fundamentalism; at least it is harmless.

    According to your hypothesis, poor in Pakistan should stay poor since they cannot handle sudden wealth (unless it is true for India only). Are you an example from Pakistan of your hypothesis who got rich and playing piano on the keyboard without bothering the basic decency in the name of open discussion?

    People like you who cannot talk to others properly and are prone to jumpy conclusions are nightmare as far as Pakistan’s problem solving is concerned. May be it is not your fault but you are vulnerable to prejudices due to the kind of education system you have been subjected to.

    This SDPI report from Pak scholars at page 67 tells what you said and is an ample proof from where you are coming from. It says “A deeper examination of the present Pakistan Studies, Social Studies, History, Civics and Urdu textbooks reveals that the Hindus are uniformly portrayed in them as backward and superstitious.”

    Backward and superstitious are the words you used. what a coincidence!

    http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

    Also read p.81.

  118. beamer

    @All of a sudden a hitherto mal-nourished and largely backward people through no fault of their own, mired in religious superstition and other such meandering parochialisms, find themselves sitting on a lot of wealth (or so they think) primarily – though not completely- because they have perfected the fine art and exact science of geometric population multiplication.”
    -ylh

    ylh: What jargon!

    Which particular religion are you referring to? I will not make a guess here about religion but any day religious superstition is better than religious fundamentalism; at least it is harmless.

    According to your hypothesis, poor in Pakistan should stay poor since they cannot handle sudden wealth (unless it is true for India only). Are you an example from Pakistan of your hypothesis who got rich and playing piano on the keyboard without bothering the basic decency in the name of open discussion?

    People like you who cannot talk to others properly and are prone to jumpy conclusions are nightmare as far as Pakistan’s problem solving is concerned. May be it is not your fault but you are vulnerable to prejudices due to the kind of education system you have been subjected to.

    This SDPI report from Pak scholars at page 67 tells what you said and is an ample proof from where you are coming from. It says “A deeper examination of the present Pakistan Studies, Social Studies, History, Civics and Urdu textbooks reveals that the Hindus are uniformly portrayed in them as backward and superstitious.”

    Backward and superstitious are the words you used. what a coincidence!

    http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

    Also read p.81.

  119. updike

    Cricket is a silly game for silly people. Waste of time.

    Therefore, everyone who took up this discussion (and then as usual this ridiculing of India – that was the real reason) is also silly.

    Waste of cyberspace on these idiots and idiotizers called cricket players and their sellers and buyers.

    Just delete the whole article and discussion and free the cyberspace of such waste.

  120. lal

    YLH,
    did not really expect such an article from you…any way as somebody suggested try to create a Pak premier league and dont select indians…or even better , select indians and sho ur superior values…regards

  121. Milind Kher

    With Pakistan opting to never again play in the IPL, two things have happened at the same time.

    The tournament has become the poorer on account of the absence of the Pakistani players, and the Pakistanis have been deprived of the opportunity to participate in future.

    When the heat has dissipated and the dust has settled, all parties concerned should do a rethink

  122. Mustafa Shaban

    @YLH: I agree with most of what you have said in your article especially the part regarding our potential. That is what people need to understand is that we are capable to achieve anything. Regardin the religious fanatics, the only way to counter them is through reform in the education system. The people who control Indian policy are not moderates. Hopefully that will change.

    I do nt consider ZH to be crazy.

    3 Idiots was a good movie.

  123. Ummi

    @Googly: Ever heard of Internet? If you are still not able to get Internet in your village then it’s not my fault.knowing something today is not about having a “cultural influence”.. Come out of shell and face the facts.

    @Ron: I despise Zaid Hamid as much I despise secularism. Both are part of same coin. The way Indians have been reacting here just proves how intolerant is Indian (Secular) society is. Thankfully Pakistan is not a secular country and thankfully people like Yasser and Talibans don’t exist in abundance.

    @Asif: A country where people are still living on roads and people sold out their daughters due to poverty can never be a super power. A country where people get ready to show off their dark side and start cursing neighbor countries can never be super power. See the people of USA or former USSR, they don’t get low just like Indians do. Having Anil Ambani and Premji does not make a country superpower. All requires efforts to serve people of the country and then feed others . That’s how a country is called a super power.

  124. Milind Kher

    @MS,

    We are fighting our own communal monsters, and it is an awesome task.

    Remember that the saffron brigade are not some unemployed and marginalized people who are vulnerable and find solace in a distorted version of jihad.

    These people have tremendous support in many sections of industry, business, media and administration. The tentacles are spread far and deep. We have to neutralize these people for the good of our own country.

    Only after the above is done will we really be able to seek some rapproachment with Pakistan.

  125. karun

    what tamasha!!

    @friends from pakistan

    if you have read the story on the ‘crane and the fox’ (the saucer and thinnecked pot one), well the right way to teach the Indians a lesson is to host PPL(pakistan Premier League), Invite Indians to join the bid, and not choose any one of them.

    That will be justice done.

    Pls do not cancel MP visit, bollywood movies or send a couple of bombs to our side.

    in short: Life is UNFAIR.

  126. ylh

    Dear Ummi,

    There are more of me around than you would like to admit.

    It is people like you who allowed taliban to come in. It is a pity that people like me did not stand up to stop crooks like you. But no more… Pakistan Zindabad.

  127. ylh

    Comments by lal and karun abundantly underscore what I have written above. It is Indian hubris … Kuch nahin hota …on a long enough time line survival rate of everything is equal to zero.

  128. ylh

    PS only an idiot would equate Indian society with a secular society.

    India is a deeply religion-obsessed society.

    But ummi doesn’t understand these things does he?

  129. Milind Kher

    I visited the India today website to vote on whether Pakistani players should have been allowed to participate in IPL 3.

    I was in a minority – among the 40% who agreed. More than 58% disagreed. A little over 1% were non commital.

  130. Mustafa Shaban

    @Milind: Can you give me names of people or organisations who are influential and linked to TTP?

  131. Milind Kher

    @MS,

    I have only heard about Hakimullah Mehsud. I understand that he is the leader.

    Other than that, the most influential sympathizer that comes to mind is Shireen Mazari. There are those who speculate about Imran Khan, but I really can’t comment on that.

  132. Mustafa Shaban

    @Milind: That is obviously not true, Shireen Mazari has said that the TTP terrorists must be punished, she suggests different methods to deal with them. She also correctly states that people can inflame the anger and ruthlessness of the extremists to thier advantage.

  133. Milind Kher

    @MS,

    What methods does Shireen Mazari propose for punishing the Taliban?

    She appears very anti American, and the US is the main antagonist of the Taliban. What does that imply, by inference?

  134. Ummi

    @ylh: first learn to change diapers than try to help Pakistan you tin soldier.

    @Indians: You guys are really funny. Just read in TOI:

    timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Ex-Pak-air-force-chiefs-image-in-Indian-govt-advertisement-/articleshow/5494589.cms

    Indians suffering from Pakistan phobia and blamed ISI for it.! LOL

  135. Mustafa Shaban

    @Milind: That is a very simplistic view, Shireen is not anti american but she is against US foriegn policy. You can like me and others be critical of both US foreign policy and TTP. She suggests that first we establish dialogue with the tribals and bring them over to our side and isolate the real hardcore terrorists and then defeat them using police and intellegence. I dont see any apologizing for the TTP here.

  136. yasserlatifhamdani

    ummo mian writes:

    “ylh: first learn to change diapers than try to help Pakistan you tin soldier”

    Surely that is your parents’ job.

  137. googly

    @Googly: Ever heard of Internet? If you are still not able to get Internet in your village then it’s not my fault.knowing something today is not about having a “cultural influence”.. Come out of shell and face the facts.”
    –Ummi

    Ummi: I noticed that “cultural influence” of Indian movies in Pakistani is what Pakistan media is worried about. I stand vindicated by what you said since internet has all the information but one seeks what one needs. For example a good number of people do not search internet for porn because they do not need it.

    Duh! how are you getting my post if my village did not have internet. So far I am happy with internet in my California village.

  138. googly

    @All of a sudden a hitherto mal-nourished and largely backward people through no fault of their own, mired in religious superstition and other such meandering parochialisms, find themselves sitting on a lot of wealth (or so they think) primarily – though not completely- because they have perfected the fine art and exact science of geometric population multiplication.”
    -ylh

    ylh: What jargon!

    Which particular religion are you referring to? I will not make a guess here about religion but any day religious superstition is better than religious fundamentalism; at least it is harmless.

    According to your hypothesis, poor in Pakistan should stay poor since they cannot handle sudden wealth (unless it is true for India only). Are you an example from Pakistan of your hypothesis who got rich and playing piano on the keyboard without bothering the basic decency in the name of open discussion?

    People like you who cannot talk to others properly and are prone to jumpy conclusions are nightmare as far as Pakistan’s problem solving is concerned. May be it is not your fault but you are vulnerable to prejudices due to the kind of education system you have been subjected to.

    This SDPI report from Pak scholars at page 67 tells what you said and is an ample proof from where you are coming from. It says “A deeper examination of the present Pakistan Studies, Social Studies, History, Civics and Urdu textbooks reveals that the Hindus are uniformly portrayed in them as backward and superstitious.”

    Backward and superstitious are the words you used–quite a coincidence!

    W3.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

    Also read p.81.

  139. googly

    @if you have read the story on the ‘crane and the fox’ (the saucer and thinnecked pot one), well the right way to teach the Indians a lesson is to host PPL(pakistan Premier League), Invite Indians to join the bid, and not choose any one of them.
    -karun

    —BTW, SL team players will be the first ones to say NO to PPL. You assume Indian players will jump to the idea since Pakistan is such a secure place now. Is there money allocated in K-L Bill is another question?

    But what’s harm in suggesting howsoever impractical that may be. Would have loved seeing intelligent suggestion here.

  140. googly

    @A country where people are still living on roads and people sold out their daughters due to poverty can never be a super power.”
    –Ummi

    Ummi: How cheap of you! To make your point do not use the unfortunate girls. Also you do not have a point here since US is superpower and you will find such girls as many you want. That does not mean I ignore this problem.

    Also if I get as cheap as you, I can get you the videos of little girls (minor) prostituting in Pakistan. I have seen them and I feel like crying for these little girls since they are human across the border—who gives a damn that they are non-Indians. May be it matters to you.

    I cannot comment on “people sold out their daughters due to poverty” since it will be cruel of me to state so if that is not the case or is not common. But is this not a problem in your country? These girls have no idea what they are doing but I have no such intention to send you the videos (check youtube).

    But why do not stick to IPL issue here! No biggie that Pakistan players did not get selected. Makes sense whatever way you think. Point is why select them? I am not a big fan of IPL.

  141. Tariq

    I wonder why so much useless noise about IPL. Even PCB chairman has said that MS Gill cleared the visas for Pakistani players. So how is Government of India to blame? There were 67 players on auction and only 11 got auctioned. So what’s the big deal if the Pakistani players didn’t get selected. C’mon guys, get over it. Concentrate on Australia where you are getting royally thrashed(in cricket, I mean). It’s quite pathetic the way Pak team is getting its ass kicked in Aus. This is what happens if you play and fast too much.

  142. Ron

    @@Ummi wrote:
    “: first learn to change diapers than try to help Pakistan you tin soldier”

    Baby, i know how to change diapers.
    Come let me change YOURS!!!!

  143. yasserlatifhamdani

    ShahRukh Khan has very effectively and timely responded … and his words mean a lot …

    Thank you SRK… you rock dude. In so far as I am concerned, this goes a long way in bridging the gap that was created.

    The team owners of the India Premier League (IPL) have so far stood together on the issue of not bidding for any Pakistani players in the third edition of the event. They had come out in the media denying any foul play. But now a prominent voice among them has stood up and voiced his opposition to the issue. It is none other than the Baadshah of Bollywood, Shahrukh Khan who owns the Kolkata Knight Riders.

    Buzz up!In an interview to a leading news channel Shahrukh Khan said “They are the champions, they are wonderful but somewhere down the line there is an issue and we can’t deny it. We are known to invite everyone. We should have. If there were any issues, they should have been put on board earlier. Everything can happen respectfully,”

    It may be recalled that Shahrukh Khan who had taken active part in the bidding of the players in the first season had shown keen interest in Pakistani players. He had roped in Umar Gul and maverick Pakistani pacer Shoaib Akhtar in the first season. Shahrukh’s statement is bound to add to the controversy especially after fellow Bollywood celebrities Preity Zinta and Shilpa Shetty having gone out in full support of the fairness of the bidding process.

    and this :

    KARACHI: As a perceived snub to Pakistani players by the Indian Premier League sparks a spat between the neighbouring countries, superstar Shah Rukh Khan, an IPL franchisee himself, believes the world champions should have been picked, reports DawnNews.

    “I truly believe Pakistan players should have been chosen,” Khan, co-owner of Kolkata Knight Riders (KKR), said.
    Khan, however, said that since “some issues” were involved the matter could have been handled by the IPL “respectfully”.

    No Pakistani player was bought by the eight Indian clubs during an auction on Tuesday for the third edition of the glitzy IPL despite the Pakistan team being the reigning world champions in the Twenty20 format of the cricket tournament.

    Rooting for the Pakistani players, Khan said they are the best T20 players in the world. “They are the champions, they are wonderful but somewhere down the line there is an issue and we can’t deny it,” he told a news channel.

    Khan said it was humiliating to him as a KKR owner that no one bid for the Pakistani players despite them being put up for auction.

    “We are known to invite everyone. We should have. If there were any issues, they should have been put on board earlier. Everything can happen respectfully,” he said.

    “Everyday we blame Pakistan, everyday Pakistan blames us. It is an issue,” Khan, who had five players from Pakistan playing for KKR in IPL’s first edition, said.

    Khan felt that the youth should circumvent all that is said about India and Pakistan by the politicians and say, “Pakistan is a great neighbour to have. We are great neighbours, They are good neighbours. Let us love each other.”

    “Let me be honest. My family is from Pakistan, my father was born there and his family is from there,” he said.

  144. vajra

    @YLH

    I am glad that Shahrukh said this, and went on record. Shilpa Shetty’s command performance was difficult to take; it was so obviously played out to a carefully-scripted scenario, if you get what I mean.

    On another note, I don’t see why Mumbai should hold the whole tournament to ransom. We have had our fair share of terrorist trouble in Kolkata; the HuJI and ISI together haven’t failed to give us a bad time. But we didn’t, and don’t, take it out either on the Bangladeshis or on the Pakistanis, cricketers or plain ordinary palookas. Ask those who played here, and those who still visit (most of Wellesley Street is filled with ‘Bangladesh’ hotels, where the food is guaranteed halal and the prices are fixed even before the guest leaves Dhaka).

    So if Raj Thackeray doesn’t want Pakistanis to play, and if the Government within its rights decides that the BCCI doesn’t really need to earn a squillion a year and can drop some of that money on its own security, and the BCCI doesn’t think that it can handle Thackeray, why can’t the tournament be held everywhere else? Let’s see Thackeray, the brave leader who faced the terrorists on 26/11 single-handed and fought them to a standstill, all with marvelous dexterity from a supine position under his bed, face a season of no IPL and explain why to Mumbaikars.

    I wouldn’t mind getting the franchise for selling tickets for the ensuing show.

  145. updike

    If money goes to pakistan then it goes to some “charity” organisation or madarassa behind which, god knows, what hides.

    Pakistan with this arabic religion is untrustworthy. Pakistan sans this arabic religion will be good – if they make it out of the mental slavery and prison into which it puts them.

    What children in Pakistan have learnt in the past years is killing us all. And the most deaths are among pakistanis themselves. They seem to be in no position to undertake any corrections. So deep entrenched is the whole muslim malice and malaise. And there is an angry-fearful-bitter reaction to that in India which may also become unmanageable.

  146. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    Shahrukh has had a platform to voice his views, but there are many amongst us who believe that the whole matter could have been approached in a much better way.

    Let us hope that his step in the right direction is joined by steps of many others too. Cricket is too sublime for us to allow politics to overshadow it.

  147. vajra

    @Milind Kher

    You may have seen – many of the Indians would have seen, some of the Pakistanis may have come to know – the extraordinary, plain-spoken, even blunt statement made by Chidambaram on the IPL’s decision, and its impact on cricket. I was particularly pleased by his straightforward statement that leaving out such high-quality players could not be good for cricket.

    After this, there is nothing, no fig-leaf, that the IPL can hide behind.

    While I really do not think cricket qualifies as ‘sublime’, I believe that the potential for otherwise harmless institutions and small-time ‘operators’ to harm our highly-strung relationship should be recognised on both sides, and both administrations should keep all possible ‘spoilers’ on a tight leash. In future. It’s too late now for the present IPL, which is a great shame.

  148. Milind Kher

    @Vajra,

    The number will only grow. First SRK, now PC. Many others will chip in. Ultimately, things will have to change and IPL will have to reconsider its decision.

    I have expressed to everybody I could, in every forum I could, that what happened was very wrong.

    I still do not believe that it is too late for the present IPL. Where there is a will, there is a way. The cricket lovers of India have to stand up for the Pakistani players. They have to compel the IPL to change their stance.

    If Pakistani players are not included, I would not like to watch the tournament.

  149. vajra

    The latest is that having been wrong-sided by the MNS and his cousin, Raj, now Uddhav has piled on and said that the Shiv Sena will not allow Aussie players to play in Mumbai.

    Seriously, why not run the IPL without Mumbai and let them go around with their tongues hanging out? And the rest of the country has no problems with Pakistani cricketers, so why should we suffer because of Ashok blasted Chavan and Sharad blasted Pawar wanting to play saffron politics?

  150. Milind Kher

    @Vajra,

    I have been pushing my view on this to people close to me.

    A very close friend who is a staunch Muslim was of the view that it is a purely commercial decision by franchisees and a prudent one in the light of the security considerations.

    Indian Muslims find it difficult to stand up for Pakistan even if it is justified.

    Of course, when not justified they should not.

    In that respect, Shahrukh has taken a brave stand..

  151. vajra

    @Milind Kher

    While I perfectly understand your statement about Indian Muslims finding it difficult to stand up for Pakistan, and appreciate your caveat that when not justified, they need not, I believe that in some senses, we should not feel compelled to take any position because of our religious antecendents (considering that some of us are no longer observant).

    If, for instance, I should wish to take a position critical of Pakistan, I should not be made to feel embarrassed about it, just because I am of originally Hindu stock and it is expected that Hindus will be prejudiced against Pakistan out of the box.

    There is a book that I keep pushing, which really sums up the position quite clearly; do try to get it some way or the other and take a look at it. It’s Julien Benda’s “La Trahison des Clercs”, in English, “The Treason of the Intellectuals”, and is about the very problem that you have articulated. The moment we lose our anchor as intellectual and become merely nationalist spokespersons, we are guilty of treason, against the world of intellect and reason.

    We are so wrapped in our present prevalent world-view that we tend to forget that these same dilemmas presented themselves to earlier generations in broadly parallel circumstances.

    What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

  152. Tilsim

    @Vajra, Milind Kher

    Thank you for your kind sentiments. All arguments considered, it seems that the tide is turning in India about the appropriateness of this decision. This can only be good for future games and lowering the temperature in Pakistan (this issue is high grade potent material for our Bal Thakareys at the moment). It also reflects well on those in India that don’t want to push ordinary Pakistanis further against the wall at a time of multiple crises (I still trust, the majority in India). We can dare to hope now.

  153. vajra

    @Tilsim

    May I make a small correction? In my humble opinion, it is not that the tide is turning, it was always in this direction. Leave alone the man in the street: right from the first day, even the Indian media, never to be found lagging if Pakistan is found to be at fault on any issue, was critical and unimpressed by the IPL. To my utter surprise, my least favourite TV anchor, the Hamid Mir of Indian TV (at least the closest we have to that nonpareil), Arnab Goswami, led the charge. It was he who interviewed Chidambaram (I heard the interview only in parts) and elicited those statements.

    The whole thing was simply too unfair for words.

    Further, there was the question of good cricket, taking things away for a moment from lofty matters of state. I am very sure that nobody other than a hard core lunatic fringe (if I might mix my metaphors) even remotely wished Pakistani cricketers out. They are too much fun to watch, and add that bravura edge to a game.

  154. Ajay

    “Pakistan is a great neighbour to have. We are great neighbours, They are good neighbours.”

    Sigh. Isn’t Shahrukh charming? I guess, at the end of the day, one has to worry about how one’s films are doing at the box office. I wonder which country would he classify as bad neighbors. Maybe the ones who do not watch his inane films.

  155. Tilsim

    @ Vajra

    Reassuring to hear. When Hamid Mir becomes too transparent in promoting his right wing agenda on this talk shows, he changes his tack and lobs a few tough interviews at his fellow idealogues when they are becoming truly irrational. I don’t watch Arnab Goswami but perhaps he was doing the same thing. Whatever happened, it’s great to hear sense prevail.

    @ Ajay
    “Pakistan is a great neighbour to have. We are great neighbours, They are good neighbours.”

    I know, does n’t it sound preposterous. However, may be if we say that about each other enough times, it may even come true! His films are inane, but we sure needed some inanity to take the heat out of this and focus on the CRICKET. SRK rocks!

  156. AAENA

    deserves an oscar for best short film….hahahahaha

  157. Milind Kher

    @Vajra,

    You are right. At the end of the day, any stand has to be supported by its intrinsic merit, and not considerations of nationality and creed.

    What the IPL did was patently wrong, and we will soon see the cricket loving fraternity in India rooting for the Pakistani cricketers to come.

    If the Pakistani cricketers do not come, I will not watch a single IPL match. These self seeking franchisees cannot hold India to ransom.

    Their action is a slap on the face of the values that we stand for.

  158. Luq

    @Milind
    >come, I will not watch a single IPL match.

    Oh, purely on merits of the tournament and the relentless matches and the nauseating monotony of the whole silly cricket tamasha of IPL, I wonder why anyone in their right mind would care to watch it at all.🙂

    Anyway coming back to the issue of the boycott,

    >SRK said he and KKR captain Sourav Ganguly
    >wanted to pick all-rounder Abdul Razzaq.
    >But “I’m not going to be the one who is
    >opposite from what everyone else is saying,”
    >he told NDTV, indicating there was a consensus
    > among franchisees to stay away from
    >Pakistan players.

    So he wants to tag along with the decisions of the Saffron brigade and the other teams. But all the same wants to make politically correct noises so as not to earn a boycott of his films in Pakistan. Sheer hypocricy sugar coated with fine cultivated accent. And what have we? YLH falls for it hook line and sinker.

    >”I’m not going to be the one who is
    >opposite from what everyone else is saying,”

    Quite double faced if you ask me. And then more crap like ….my dad was from Pakistan …his family was from Pakistan …..kya filmy duniya hai, wah re wah.

    Luq

  159. Milind Kher

    @Luq,

    I get what you say. Shahrukh has a huge fan following. If he had threatened to dismantle KKR and pull out of the league, he could have brought IPL to its knees. However, whatever he has done is still commendable. None of the others did even that much.

    This is a selfish world. See, so many countries play cricket. Yet, none of them stood up for the Pakistani players.

    I believe that doing what is right is more important than doing what is politically right. You are actually accountable only to God and your conscience, or as far as agnostics are concerned, only to your conscience.

  160. Luq

    @Milind
    Uske kehne aur karne mein farq hai. That is enough definition of hypocrite. He is more slimy than the other teams….dont you think?

    If ever there was an example of bagal mein churi mooh pe ram ram, this is it…….
    “Pakistan is a great neighbour to have. We are great neighbours, They are good neighbours. Let us love each other. Let me be honest. My family is from Pakistan, my father was born there and his family is from there,” he added.

    Luq

  161. Milind Kher

    @Luq,

    Though I believe he could have done more, he might have his compulsions, so I can’t condemn him outright.

    There are 3 degrees of faith. The highest is that when you see something wrong happening, prevent it. If you cannot do that, speak out against it. If you cannot do even that, at least acknowledge in your heart that it is wrong. That is the least degree of faith.

    He has practised the second to an extent. Maybe, the third also holds true for him.

  162. Luq

    The naked truth is that he is party to the bigotry on one hand and giving lip service and crocodile tears on the other. Nothing but pure hypocricy.

    Lets take our thumbs out of our sucking mouths for a change.

    Luq

  163. Ummi

    @Googly: It seems you could not face my “googly”.

    Actually, I just brought up the facts. And saying little girls of Pakistan are busy in prostituting, yes it’s true but Pakistan does not claim to be an economic giants like India. Despite of IT boom in India, poors are getting further poorer. Bitter but true. Infact you are living in CA(village) to help your family back in India to provide better facilities which “super power India” is yet unable to provide.

  164. Ron

    @@Ummi

    It will be good if you STOP worrying about India and focus on your country!!!!

  165. Ajay

    Now, if the honorable YLH would withdraw his vituperation against the Indian Govt. By the way, what would Jinnah make of all this. He must be rolling in his grave.
    I have suggestions for a new film title:
    “Yasser bhai ko gussa kyon ata hai”🙂

    Milind,
    I am sure IPL would be poorer without your viewership.

    Vajra,
    Taking 5 lines to say what could be said in one line doesn’t necessarily make you right, nor quoting some random authors. It just shows that you are fond of blabbering.

  166. Milind Kher

    @Ajay,

    It does not matter whether my viewership has any impact on IPL. What is important is for a thought process to be set in motion.

    SRK has spoken up, PC has spoken up. Already Lalit Modi has said that there was no intention of keeping the Pakistani players out.

    Indian cricket lovers cannot be cheated out of seeing the best cricketers perform just because of the churlish behavior of IPL and its franchisees. You will soon see a veritable flood of protests coming in. The matter is not as insignificant as you believe it to be. And in any movement, it is not the individual that counts. It is the philosophy.

  167. Ajay

    Milind,
    The good philosophy or grace would have been to not invite the Pakistani players. That was wrong to invite them and then not bid for them. But, we should wait for all facts to turn up before indulging in useless recriminations. So, now, at least, some of us can breathe in relief that the Govt was not out to humiliate the Pakistani players. I found the whole logic preposterous. And, I think you are assuming too much to say that the Indian public were dying to see Afridi in action. I know quite a lot who were not. It’s the team that matters not the individuals, in case of Pakistan. Afridi is not Akram or Younus that we would love to watch for the sheer aesthetics. On another level, wasn’t it a few months ago that Pakistan insisted that all its world cup matches should be played in Sri Lanka because of “security” concerns. So, how come India has become so secure suddenly.

    I am somewhat amused that YLH has also fallen for that age old argument that India is helping Taliban, Baloch, etc. There is some sense to what Goebels said, that if you repeat a lie thousand times, it becomes the truth. Sad.

    As for SRK, he is entitled to his own views, but I am sullen at his churlish statement that Pakistan is a great neighbor to have. It is not, not till now. If he is so enamored of them, let him convince our neighbor to prosecute the guilty for Bombay. Till then, all such comments are feckless and inconsequential.

  168. Milind Kher

    @Ajay,

    As far as the Mumbai attacks or any other are concerned, let us understand that these activities are totally different from the business of cricket.

    I would agree wholheartedly with any decision to hang Kasab or Afzal Guru. Infiltration by LeT or JeM too is completely unacceptable and such terrorists should be gunned down.

    I am not saying too, that it was just Afridi that people were looking forward to. I am talking collectively of Pakistani players, which includes Yousuf, Abdul Razzaq and many more.

    I do not believe India is helping the Taliban. I have expressed on this forum too that it is illogical for us to support people who vowed a jihad against us.

    So, you see, it is not a matter of taking any sides. It is a matter of the issue at hand.

  169. Ajay

    Milind,
    You and me can dissociate ourselves by saying that cricket and Bombay attacks are unrelated. It’s not true for all the people out there, especially after the ritual humiliation that our FM faces by constant demand for dossiers. I wonder what would have happened if Kasab was not caught alive. Then, the whole Pakistani establishment would have cried foul and said that we are leveling unfair accusations. If cricket and politics are so unrelated then why cancel the trip of MPs from across the border. Wasn’t that a political decision? How about Gilani making this eminently fatuous statement that he cannot guarantee that there would be no further attacks on India?

    It may seem apathetic, but we have had enough of excuses. Not after Bombay. We will move forward, but one step at a time. Empathy is not inexhaustible.

    And, let me ask you, why was South Africa boycotted?

  170. Milind Kher

    Ajay,

    The Pak establishment cannot cry foul on the subject of terror. The very fact that they are carrying out a major attack on the Taliban and Al Qaeda means that they do acknowledge the presence of terrorists.

    Gilani truly cannot prevent another 26/11 because he is powerless to stop the terrorist attacks in his own country.

    Over the years, the fundamentalists and the military have crippled the democratic process in Pakistan. So, for Gilani and Zardari to become assertive and effective will take time. In any case, I would root for Zardari over Gilani any day.

    And see the balanced stand that PC has taken. Although he is completely opposed to the approach of the Pakistani establishment, he has supported the right of the Pakistani players to play in IPL.

  171. Ajay

    It would have been ridiculous for PC to take any other stand. I agree that the whole affair was thoroughly graceless and should have been avoided. But, since when did it become a right to play in IPL. It’s a private franchise! That is like saying that I have the right to work at Microsoft. I have the right to apply. Whether I can work or play, that is the right of the private franchise to decide. Of course, the players have right to appeal if they felt they were unfairly dealt with.

    As for Gilani, if he is so powerless, then why can’t he keep his mouth shut. More importantly, can he deliver on peace then?

  172. Milind Kher

    If Microsoft invites an application from me and summarily rejects me for being , say , a Hispanic, it is wrong.

    Let Microsoft in this analogy say that they do not entertain Hispanic applications at all. However, I do believe that this matter will be sorted out rapidly.

  173. vajra

    @Ajay

    Not everybody has your superb command over the language. Some of us less privileged take a few extra words to explain our point of view. And which quotation from a random author were you referring to?

  174. Ajay

    They said it was due to security concerns, which may be weak but not entirely unreasonable. And, such things do crop up suddenly.

  175. Milind Kher

    @Ajay,

    What security concerns? The Mumbai Police Commissioner has said that a 26/11 kind of situation can now be tackled in 30 minutes.

    If anything, Indian security has substantially improved. We simply cannot defend the indefensible. If the team owners retract their stand and take on board the Pakistani players, imagine the goodwill it will generate. All will be forgotten.

  176. Ajay

    Yeah, the same people who told us that we were ready for any attack. Remember what PC said in response to why 2009 was peaceful: “Luck, pure luck.”

    Would you come to the organizer’s defense if such attacks happened? And, why should they take such responsibility for generating goodwill. We need goodwill, but we’ll rather have Hafiz Saeed and Let operatives behind the bars. We had enough of pappi jhappi tamasha.

  177. Milind Kher

    If such attacks happened, ensuring safety is the responsibility of the security agencies. The organizers can only ensure that security arrangements are made, their effectiveness depends totally on the security agencies.

    Goodwill is needed not just for any goody goody reasons but for the benefits it will bring to the table in fighting terrorism.

  178. Ajay

    Thanks for the compliments, Vajra. It warms the inner cockles of my heart.🙂

    There is some author that you have referenced to. Regrettably, my limited intellectual faculties cannot encompass those high sounding names. Mercifully, it was in this thread so I can just c and p it here..

    “It’s Julien Benda’s “La Trahison des Clercs”, in English, “The Treason of the Intellectuals”,”

    Phew!

  179. Ajay

    Milind,
    I hope those benefits are more tangible than abstract or fatuous like participating in mushairas and all that nonsense.

  180. Milind Kher

    Ajay,

    The benefits will be that on its part, Pakistan will rein in the LeT and JeM, just as it has obliged the US by attacking TTP and Al Qaeda. I believe that would reduce pressure on our security agencies too.

    I too am not referring to mushairas et al.

    Let us give cooperation a chance

  181. Ajay

    Sigh! If only the wishes were horses…
    They are not “obliging” US. It’s Uncle Sam’s big heavy boot on their neck that is forcing them to do it. Let’s not be polite for politeness sake. I like to dream too, but only during the night.
    Since when we have hamstrung them in going after Let and Jem?

  182. vajra

    @Ajay

    What a clever chap you are to be sure! Only why did no one ever tell you that your inner and outer cockles are the same, and the phrase in English is ‘cockles of my heart’? And it cost you a word extra too!

    Secondly, one doesn’t reference an author, one refers to an author.

    Thirdly, what was your objection to the reference to Benda (or perhaps you would prefer ‘the refer to Benda’)? Did you not think that the situation we are in fits Benda’s description? Or did you just feel in the mood to make a clever remark?

  183. Ajay

    Vajra,
    Thanks for the correction. I am highly obliged. I never claimed that I wrote perfect English. That was a title generously conferred by you. The phrase, “inner cockles…” is commonly used. It may be wrong but then it shows that in your quest for hemorrhaging correctness, you are so out of touch with the “masses”.🙂

    Ok, that was facetious (on my part).

    I don’t have any objection to the author, but sometimes we all have an urge to buttress a weak argument with obligatory references to high and mighty books because they shut up some lesser mortals.

  184. vajra

    @Ajay

    The phrase “inner cockles” is not commonly used; it is never used. The proof is that you cannot cite a single example of this from anywhere at all. Try not to avoid being shown to be wrong by arguing that everybody does it.

    You are not the masses, alas, irrespective of your physical condition, you are just one mistaken individual.

    I am not sure what you mean by ‘hemorrhaging’ correctness; is this another new phrase thought up by you, which is commonly used? Could you show me another example of its use?

    About the book, did you even read what the argument was? It sounds like you didn’t, just felt like being flippant and let fly. Don’t you think that if you want to criticise, you should at least make an attempt at understanding?

    Don’t go away, I’m just warming up.

  185. Ajay

    Vajra,
    I just wanted to say that in my humble ignorance, I am one of the masses. ‘hemorrhaging’ correctness is somewhat similar to Pyrrhic victory. I cannot quote any example because I made it up.
    As for “inner cockles”, I agree with you that it may not be the correct English but something that crept inadvertently in my writing from the manner of speech. For example, here is an instance:
    “Charles Darwin wrote in a letter in 1858, “I have just had the innermost cockles of my heart rejoiced by a letter from Lyell.””

    Now, I am sure you would agree that Charles Darwin was a significant mind. He might have committed that mistake too, I guess.

    As for being flippant with regard to that Benda or whatever her name is, I agree with that assessment; though I stand by my previous argument that just quoting gratuitously doesn’t make a good argument. It merely confirms that one is a show off.

  186. vajra

    @Ajay

    1. Since your ignorance, from your language in your mail, is far from humble, may we conclude that you are not after all ‘one of the masses’.
    2. I note that your argument has changed subtly, under pressure. In your earlier mail, you said, and I quote exactly,in your quest for hemorrhaging correctness, you are so out of touch with the “masses”. You were not talking about being out of touch with you alone, but with a large number of others. Aren’t you being a tad dishonest? pretending that you were quoting a widely accepted and prevalent usage, when all the time it was just your own unique coinage?
    3. Yes, you are precisely right. That significant mind, Charles Darwin, did commit a mistake. If you go back to the online citations where you have taken that example from, they very clearly indicate the correct usage. Charles Darwin was a significant mind in biology, not in English. Citing him as an authority does not give your usage much authenticity. That doesn’t justify your making the same mistake. In case you hadn’t been informed personally, two wrongs don’t make a right.
    4. Regarding Benda, let me take you through the argument once again, patiently. Since you now know that you will be insulted mercilessly if you do not pay attention, I believe that you will pay attention this time.
    My argument is that intellectuals owe their loyalty to the realm of the intellect, and that they are obliged to be logical and rational in their discourse with each other, and not be influenced by external diversions such as national affiliation or loyalty.
    The need to point this out is because this entire thread, and another like it, is filled with Indians hammering home what they believe to be the Indian stand, illogical and irrational though it is; also, these two threads are filled with Pakistanis hammering home what they believe to be the Pakistani stand, illogical and irrational though that is. Both sides have lost their balance, and their detachment, and are arguing under the influence, not of alcohol, but of national sentiment.
    This was Benda’s original argument: that French and German scholars should not lose their detachment, and should not argue with each other as Frenchmen or as Germans, but should maintain their equanimity of temperament and argue as intellectuals.

    Would you now tell me – what did you find objectionable or inapt about this argument?

  187. vajra

    @Ajay

    Oh, by the way, we didn’t discuss ‘hemorrhaging’ correctness. In what way do you find it similar to Pyrrhic victory? Are you aware of what a Pyrrhic victory was? I am surprised that your knowledge of history extends to the early history of consular Rome. Do you even know where Epirus was?

  188. Ajay

    Vajra,
    With regard to point 1:
    “ur language in your mail, is far from humble, may we conclude that you are not after all ‘one of the masses’.”

    That is a subjective opinion. I decline to comment.

    2) Ditto for point 2 too. Accepting one’s flaws is not, in my opinion, a sign of being under pressure. I’ll leave that to you to comb through such nuances.

    3) As for “..correctness”, your comment that “Aren’t you being a tad dishonest? … prevalent usage, when all the time it was just your own unique coinage?…” is a cursory and faulty reading of my lines. I don’t make the claim about “masses” for the unique coinage. I take credit for the fact that you have devoted precious time in unraveling its meaning. Thank you.

    4) About quoting Darwin, if you care to read carefully, I did express my doubt that he may have been wrong. In that he is not alone but stands with such luminaries as Mark Twain whose English or its usage was frequently criticized as not being correct. In contrast to you strict following the letter as they say, I leave language free from such shackles. That, however, is not a license to write garbage. I have already accepted that I might be wrong in using that term. For me to swear that I was wrong, I would like to refer to a more authoritative source.

    As for your reference to Brenda, I agree that you have a point. My comment was in a general sense. I have seen that you are fond of writing long paragraphs with random references.

    PS: Remember, acknowledging one’s mistakes is not a sign of weakness but strength.

  189. Ajay

    Are we going to discuss Pyrrhic? Yes, I do know about him and what it means. I do not know about Epirus. That you are smug in your belief that I may be ignorant about “Pyrrhic victory” tells me about the level of bozos that frequent this site.

  190. Ajay

    Btw, I highly doubt that everyone who used the phrase “crossing the Rubicon” knew all about Julius Caesar.

  191. vajra

    @Ajay

    I am afraid you shift ground rather frequently, when your original arguments are found insufficient or inconvenient.

    For starters, (a new sequence with letters is being used instead of numbers, as you have broken out one point into two):

    A. Your point 2. There was no subjective element there at all, only facts. First, the argument was that the masses used something, so the usage was justified by popular sanction (weak enough by itself). Then the argument became that the masses in question were in reality one single individual, yourself. Not dishonest? What is subjective about this assessment? That there were purported to be many, who turned out to be you? Or that you are actually many? Neither seems very reasonable.

    B. Your point 2. You didn’t accept a flaw, just shifted ground.

    C. Your point 3. Apparently you are saying that in your humble ignorance you are one of the masses. Therefore the full sentence should originally have read: In your hemorrhaging correctness, you are out of touch with the masses, of whom, in my humble ignorance, I am one. If so, I have no further difficulty with the wording, except of course that haemorrhaging correctness is a piece of complete nonsense.

    D. Your point 4. Are you serious? I asked you to quote a single example of usage the way you had used it, you cite a source, and then you say that you had discounted it by saying that the source could have been wrong? If you can’t count on your source, why mislead people by citing it? That twaddle about Mark Twain surely wouldn’t convince even yourself – or would it? I am beginning to wonder.

    E. I agree that I tend to be careful about the use of the language. For instance, just to illustrate the point, I might write, “In contrast to you strictly following the letter as they say, I leave language free from such shackles.” But I would not, since although this construction is grammatically correct, the popular saying quoted is completely wrong; this is not a case of following the letter, that is from a different case altogether, from the instance of law, where one has the letter of the law or the spirit of the law, and the option of which of the two to follow.

    A general observation: you may be wondering why I am dwelling on these seemingly minor issues at such length. Please be sure that you attracted attention by these usages and by a general sloppiness of thought and argument. These mistakes and these incorrect uses are reflective of an inner sloppiness which comes out clearly in your arguments. If you cannot write a couple of paragraphs without such mistakes, how can you hold on to a detailed thought in a sustained way, without errors?

    F. Your numberless comment. What is your point actually? It seems that you no longer have objections to Benda (not Brenda, and not she). Since your original remark read My comment was in a general sense. I have seen that you are fond of writing long paragraphs with random references, I am left as confused as before. It is difficult to pin you down. Benda was cited correctly, we may perhaps deduce from your remarks. Could we say that the references are not, in fact, random? Then what is your objection?

    G. Your second mail about Pyrrhus King of Epirus. It is rather a Pyrrhic event – I feel it may be indelicate to term it a victory – to know the King and not know where he was from. But that does not matter, does it? After all, we are speaking of an analyst who would leave language free from such shackles. Also generalisations. Also similes and metaphors.

    In conclusion, you are quite right to conclude that my assessment of you is indicative of the level of the bozos that frequent this site. If you care to spare a glance at the abstract of mails that comes at the top of the blog-site, you will find that you far outnumber other contributors. It might be said with fairness that you are, in fact, an example of the level of bozo that frequents this site.

  192. vajra

    @Ajay

    Since my references were considered diffuse and vague, it is my knowledge and capacity to argue a point that is in question, not ‘everybody’. And yes, I do know about C. Julius Caesar. Also about the significance of the phrase.

    For what it’s worth.

  193. Ajay

    Vajra,
    With reference to your opening lines, I guess it’s a subjective opinion too, so I desist from commenting.
    A) For example: words are added to a language from popular usage. That is an instance of an effect of the “masses”.
    D) You asked me for an instance and I quoted Charles Darwin. With reference to Mark Twain, I suggest you read some of the literary criticisms of his earliest writings. Some of us do consult “real” books and not rely solely on google. I would love to make your job easier by giving you some important references, but it’s good to go to library every now and then.
    B) some may give me credit for accepting my flaws.
    E) I agree that my writings here have been a bit sloppy. My effort was to communicate as much in as little time as possible. With my research journals, I am more careful. Moreover, I am not obsessed with formality and ceremonies like a bulk of my fellow travelers in the subcontinent. I believe I may not be wrong in the usage of the word “prig” for such people, of which you are a prime representative. I shall try to limit personal insults because it wastes too much time.
    “These mistakes and these incorrect uses are reflective of an inner sloppiness which comes out clearly in your arguments.”
    That is again a personal opinion without any sort of scientific backing. As a part of a bazaar discussion, it may pass muster, from where I suppose you get most of your arguments.
    C) You sentence construction of what I originally wrote is without reproach, but it conjoins sentences in two different replies, and unless, I was a clairvoyant(you may be one), I regret my inability to form such sentences. As for “hemorrhaging correctness”, I apologize that it pricked you so much. That it may be a complete nonsense, is again a personal opinion. Imagine the initial reaction by self styled purists like you to the term: making haste slowly.
    F) I think age is catching up on you. I suggest reading things slowly. I am familiar with your other posts and hence the usage of “general sense”.
    G) I agree wholeheartedly that it is a Pyrrhic victory for you. I suggest that you look at the phrase afresh. It’s quite possible to know a King and forget where he was from. Whether it is a “victory” of some sort, well, I’ll leave that to others to decide.

    A general observation with respect to “intellectuals” like you: it is a tragedy of our subcontinent that we are held hostage by people who are obsessed with form rather than content, and with all the hallmarks of a small mind, we revel in scoring minor victories.

  194. Ajay

    Vajra,
    That you spend so much time replying to such bozos as me makes me wonder who is the bigger bozo. Think.

  195. vajra

    With reference to your opening lines, I guess it’s a subjective opinion too, so I desist from commenting.

    No, not if you are saying that it is an opinion not backed by evidence. I have always provided sufficient evidence, and on this point particularly, more than enough to bring the point home – if you are not determined to ignore it, that is.

    If you wish, I am perfectly willing to detail every occasion when you have shifted grounds on your arguments being found insufficient.

    A) For example: words are added to a language from popular usage. That is an instance of an effect of the “masses”.

    That was my point in the first place, that you have cited popular usage, and on being pressed, it reduced itself to an individual effort of your own. That hardly has the sanction of mass use, does it?

    This is precisely why I called the argument dishonest. I believe you need to re-visit your basic position.

    D) You asked me for an instance and I quoted Charles Darwin. With reference to Mark Twain, I suggest you read some of the literary criticisms of his earliest writings. Some of us do consult “real” books and not rely solely on google. I would love to make your job easier by giving you some important references, but it’s good to go to library every now and then.

    This perfectly illustrates the difficulty with arguing with a person who will shift ground frequently.

    Let me rehearse you once again. My objection was to your making an unheard of departure, and a consequent request that you should cite an authority.

    You quoted a line of personal correspondence by Darwin, against norms, apparently on the basis of an Internet search for the offending phrase. As you perhaps know or perhaps don’t, these citations are sought in an authoritative context: the source needs to be authoritative. I would not quote my neighbour’s chauffeur’s words as authoritative. In this context, Darwin was a great man and an authority in many things, and to be cited as an authority in those. He is not an authority on matters of English usage; it is not his race or nationality that matters, but his position in speaking with authority on these subjects.

    As if that was not enough, you went on to invalidate your own actions by entering a caveat and stating that Darwin could be wrong. In fact, he was not entirely wrong.

    Please read this carefully: it is wrong to say ‘inner cockles’, it is admissible to say ‘innermost cockles’.

    You now have two choices: to rail or to resort to Billingsgate, or to ask why. The choice is left to you.

    If you look up the etymology of the word cockles, you will readily understand why. Perhaps my use of the adverb in the previous sentence was optimistic, but I am prepared to take that risk.

    You then went on to say that Mark Twain might have said such a thing, but preferred to avoid providing an example, using instead evasive measures such as referring me to literary criticism of his writings.

    Actually, you may be surprised, astonished even, to learn that in this particular friendly exchange of views, I am not in the least interested in literary criticism of Mark Twain. The topic under discussion was your use of ‘inner cockles’ and its permissibility, and no amount of evasion will obscure that.
    Please try to be straightforward in your responses.

    B) some may give me credit for accepting my flaws.

    Yes, certainly, not just some, all will give you credit for accepting your flaws. An unfortunate sine qua non for that to happen is that you have to accept your flaws. In this case, you have merely shifted ground.

    E) I agree that my writings here have been a bit sloppy. My effort was to communicate as much in as little time as possible. With my research journals, I am more careful. Moreover, I am not obsessed with formality and ceremonies like a bulk of my fellow travelers in the subcontinent. I believe I may not be wrong in the usage of the word “prig” for such people, of which you are a prime representative. I shall try to limit personal insults because it wastes too much time.

    “These mistakes and these incorrect uses are reflective of an inner sloppiness which comes out clearly in your arguments.”

    That is again a personal opinion without any sort of scientific backing. As a part of a bazaar discussion, it may pass muster, from where I suppose you get most of your arguments.

    It is interesting that you succumb to ad hominem after a gallant resistance.

    First, the exchange of views between us started with a question of how long is long. You were pleased to address a relative stranger, of unknown provenance, with the delightful opening words:

    Taking 5 lines to say what could be said in one line doesn’t necessarily make you right, nor quoting some random authors. It just shows that you are fond of blabbering.

    Suave, polite and immaculate in its courtesy. At this point, failure to applaud seems almost churlish. I note with interest your recent statement :

    I shall try to limit personal insults because it wastes too much time.

    Most worthy and high-minded of you, if a little late in the day. I wonder what your style would be in case you did not set such onerous restrictions on yourself.

    In my opinion, when I am writing for an audience which might be expected to be hostile at least in some proportion, it is extremely important for me to be well understood, very clearly understood, beyond any reasonable doubt. I was not writing for sharp minds such as yourself, and for those who can make sense of half-completed thoughts, but for a potentially hostile and sensitized audience already irritated beyond reason by actions by fellow countrymen. It was called for, I thought, to remain neutral and beyond national prejudice, echoing Benda, and for that reason, on PTH, I tend to write in careful, scrupulous detail. As I am doing now, for rather similar reasons. That regrettably involves long passages.

    Instead of trying to understand why this might be necessary, you started with insults straightaway. I was quite taken aback that you should have taken such serious exception to my way of writing.

    I hope sincerely that this will explain to you that care with regard to the issues that I have mentioned is more important than “to communicate as much (sic) in as little time as possible.” Quite apart from the fact that this haste brings out silly phrases such as “to communicate as much”, you should consider what your priorities are – clear communication or saving your own time. You are not in a Just a Minute competition.

    Second, the question of fellow travelers. There is a specific meaning, to be precise, a political and derogatory meaning to this term. Be so good as not to use it indiscriminately, without understanding the background.

    Third, the use of form and ceremony is a personal matter, and I can hardly opine on this. Other than paving the way for a gratuitous insult, it is not clear why you brought it up. One possible reason might be to negate any charges of sloppiness, by simply describing this sloppiness as a refreshing new approach, unknown to prigs. Or the grammatically and stylistically fastidious, which seems to be the same thing in your book.

    Fourth, with your permission, I shall ignore for the moment your dismissal of the sloppiness of your arguments, which you say is not backed up by ‘scientific backing.’ Indeed, being logical and rational in such discussions is important; I am not sure what science you wish to introduce, and presume for the moment that it is a literary flourish, part of your refreshing ‘new’ approach to language and style; it is unfortunate for old fogies like myself who are used to having these ruthlessly excised by English teachers, that thanks to this painstaking tutoring, we are forced into archaic habits of precision and grammar. Great pity, that.

    Fifth, I must confess I was amused at your concluding remarks about the bazaar, a self-goal if ever there was one:

    As a part of a bazaar discussion, it may pass muster, from where I suppose you get most of your arguments.

    And this from a person with the nobility of character and high-mindedness to – what was that again? – limit personal insults because it wastes too much time. All I can say is to echo King David: ‘Lo, how are the mighty fallen!’

    I was labouring under the impression, wholly induced by you, that the bazaar and its discussion was an integral part of logic in such things, considering your earlier arguments about the masses and their anointing as sacred of new usages. Do I detect a differentiation between the English-speaking masses and the native bazaar? Or is it purely personal and specific?

    C) You sentence construction of what I originally wrote is without reproach, but it conjoins sentences in two different replies, and unless, I was a clairvoyant(you may be one), I regret my inability to form such sentences. As for “hemorrhaging correctness”, I apologize that it pricked you so much. That it may be a complete nonsense, is again a personal opinion. Imagine the initial reaction by self styled purists like you to the term: making haste slowly.

    Whose fault is it that you put a single undivided thought in two different posts? Why blame me for setting it right, after you had divided it to the point of obscurity?

    There is, and can be no comparison between the phrase making haste slowly, the implications of which are clear to all, and the neologism that you concocted on the spur of the moment and have been defending ever since. A bad example. Making haste slowly can be explained quite clearly; what is your explanation for ‘haemorrhaging correctness’? that might help us decide the matter.

    F) I think age is catching up on you. I suggest reading things slowly. I am familiar with your other posts and hence the usage of “general sense”.

    Of course age is catching up with me, as it is with every other person present on the blog-site, with one possible exception. This is native to the human condition, in case nobody told you.

    The question was not with your familiarity with my other posts, but your pushing in the inexplicable reference to Benda. If it comes to that, I might ask – to use your own phrase without necessarily agreeing with its use – on what scientific backing you say that I am fond of writing long paragraphs with random references. Let me clarify that I am object to the compounding of the offence: long sentences, yes, I have explained (at length) elsewhere, but random references? Examples please? Benda was obviously a bad one, I think we have agreed.

    G) I agree wholeheartedly that it is a Pyrrhic victory for you. I suggest that you look at the phrase afresh. It’s quite possible to know a King and forget where he was from. Whether it is a “victory” of some sort, well, I’ll leave that to others to decide.

    To agree with me requires us to have said the same thing.
    We didn’t. Not on this point, at least.

    Don’t you think that your ‘agreement’ was tendentious, to say the least?

    A general observation with respect to “intellectuals” like you: it is a tragedy of our subcontinent that we are held hostage by people who are obsessed with form rather than content, and with all the hallmarks of a small mind, we revel in scoring minor victories.

    Coming from another commentator, I would find this unkind. From you, I find this characteristic. Also mendacious and untruthful. Let me refresh your memory:

    Taking 5 lines to say what could be said in one line doesn’t necessarily make you right, nor quoting some random authors. It just shows that you are fond of blabbering.

    Was that my content that you were criticising?

    How ironic your lines read now:

    It is a tragedy of our subcontinent that we are held hostage by people who are obsessed with form rather than content, and with all the hallmarks of a small mind, we revel in scoring minor victories.

    Having started with an egregious and unprovoked insult about the form of my writing, why do you complain when I return the compliment?

    You keep saying that you deserve credit for admitting your mistakes: ‘some may give me credit for admitting my flaws.’

    Of course. You will get credit. For that to happen, you have to admit your flaws, not pretend that you are simon-pure and that all who have a contrary opinion are motivated.

  196. updike

    Such long responses are a result of falling civility in discussion.

  197. vajra

    @Updike

    True.

    Why don’t you take the lead in re-introducing civility, at least in your posts?

  198. Ajay

    Vajra,
    As an example of excessive verbiage, your posts should be held forth in any manual on communication.
    1) “No, not if you are saying that it is an opinion not backed by evidence. I have always provided sufficient evidence, and on this point particularly, more than enough to bring the point home”
    Ans: Faulty reading of my posts doesn’t constitute evidence.
    2) (A) “A) For example: words are added to a language from popular usage. That is an instance of an effect of the “masses”.

    That was my point in the first place, that you have cited popular usage, and on being pressed, it reduced itself to an individual effort”

    Ans: The example of “masses” was not given in response to your jabber about “… correctness”. I can’t help if you do not read carefully.

    3) “it is wrong to say ‘inner cockles’, it is admissible to say ‘innermost cockles’. ”

    Ans: That’s a sissy way of granting that you are not standing on entirely firm ground. In that you have just joined your brothers from across the border who after making all storm and fury about the IPL fiasco as too ready to play if allowed.
    Ref: http://blog.dawn.com/2010/01/27/backtracking-on-the-ipl/

    4) “to rail or to resort to Billingsgate, or to ask why”

    Ans: Billingsgate should be in small letters. It’s not used as a noun here. Another instance of why simple English should be used as much as possible. Using fancy words would win you some points among a few wide-eyed fools, but can’t help your weak argument. I suggest you get your hands on “Elements of Style”.

    5) As for you rambling about Twain, I request you to read my original comment about him.

    6) My use of the phrase “bazaar discussion” did have an element of scorn in it. It was because you elevated the discussion to be based on rigor or language or logic and then, when things became a bit hot, resorted to unsubstantiated theories of your own invention. There is a something called a scientific method that you should follow when enunciating such general theories. Of course, you have tried, in your own slapdash manner, to throw a smokescreen of useless words and general rambling to get away from providing any reference.

    7) “Making haste slowly can be explained quite clearly….”

    Again, too many words. There was a reason, however, why I brought that example. I guess, subtlety is not your forte. I am not going to explain everything. I must say, though, that it seems like you haven’t dated much.

    8) “Second, the question of fellow travelers.”
    It was meant to be mildly derogatory, but I can’t help if you are ultra sensitive.

    9)”To agree with me requires us to have said the same thing. We didn’t. Not on this point…”

    I stand by my original assertion that you should revisit that phrase. Again, you are throwing words like confetti to hide you I-don’t-know-how-I committed-that-mistake dilemma.

    10) “why do you complain when I return ”
    It was a comment rather than a complaint. This is a blog and we all are free to comment whatever we like.

    11) Lastly, I would like to congratulate you on your membership of an even more exclusive club: tiresome prigs.

  199. AJ

    Vajra,
    As an example of excessive verbiage, your posts should be held forth in any manual on communication.
    1) “No, not if you are saying that it is an opinion not backed by evidence. I have always provided sufficient evidence, and on this point particularly, more than enough to bring the point home”
    Ans: Faulty reading of my posts doesn’t constitute evidence.
    2) (A) “A) For example: words are added to a language from popular usage. That is an instance of an effect of the “masses”.

    That was my point in the first place, that you have cited popular usage, and on being pressed, it reduced itself to an individual effort”

    Ans: The example of “masses” was not given in response to your jabber about “… correctness”. I can’t help if you do not read carefully.

    3) “it is wrong to say ‘inner cockles’, it is admissible to say ‘innermost cockles’. ”

    Ans: That’s a sissy way of granting that you are not standing on entirely firm ground. In that you have just joined your brothers from across the border who after making all storm and fury about the IPL fiasco as too ready to play if allowed.
    Ref: http://blog.dawn.com/2010/01/27/backtracking-on-the-ipl/

    4) “to rail or to resort to Billingsgate, or to ask why”

    Ans: Billingsgate should be in small letters. It’s not used as a noun here. Another instance of why simple English should be used as much as possible. Using fancy words would win you some points among a few wide-eyed fools, but can’t help your weak argument. I suggest you get your hands on “Elements of Style”.

    5) As for you rambling about Twain, I request you to read my original comment about him.

    6) My use of the phrase “bazaar discussion” did have an element of scorn in it. It was because you elevated the discussion to be based on rigor or language or logic and then, when things became a bit hot, resorted to unsubstantiated theories of your own invention. There is a something called a scientific method that you should follow when enunciating such general theories. Of course, you have tried, in your own slapdash manner, to throw a smokescreen of useless words and general rambling to get away from providing any reference.

    7) “Making haste slowly can be explained quite clearly….”

    Again, too many words. There was a reason, however, why I brought that example. I guess, subtlety is not your forte. I am not going to explain everything. I must say, though, that it seems like you haven’t dated much.

    8) “Second, the question of fellow travelers.”
    It was meant to be mildly derogatory, but I can’t help if you are ultra sensitive.

    9)”To agree with me requires us to have said the same thing. We didn’t. Not on this point…”

    I stand by my original assertion that you should revisit that phrase. Again, you are throwing words like confetti to hide you I-don’t-know-how-I committed-that-mistake dilemma.

    10) “why do you complain when I return ”
    It was a comment rather than a complaint. This is a blog and we all are free to comment whatever we like.

    11) Lastly, I would like to congratulate you on your membership of an even more exclusive club: tiresome prigs.

  200. Jay

    YLH,
    do post my reply, otherwise that would be grossly unfair. This is Ajay.

  201. updike

    I wonder why some of my posts are deleted. I had written a decent reply to vajra – what was wrong with that? Why was it deleted?

    To anonymous

    As regards population increase in India and Pakistan – you must differentiate between population increase of muslims in India and hindus in India.

    The hindu population growth factor is less than 3.2, bu the muslim factor is much like the one in Pakistan. Muslims are using their newborn children and pregnant women as instruments of encroachment against non-muslims. How can the muslims claim that they (wish to) live peacefully with the non-muslims if this demographic aggression goes on? How can the muslims claim innocence when there are communal troubles in India?

  202. Gorki

    “How can the muslims claim innocence when there are communal troubles in India?”

    Indeed!!
    Irrefutable argument; case closed.😉

  203. updike

    to gorki

    If two differentiable groups live on the same territory and the one group increases its population component then it is an act of subtle and gross aggression (demographic aggression leading later to a political, territorial, juridical and cultural etc. aggression, may be even a racial aggression) against the other group.

    Indeed!!
    Irrefutable argument.
    Good that you are acknowledging it now.

  204. D_a_n

    @up(dick)

    you spaketh:

    ‘Muslims are using their newborn children and pregnant women as instruments of encroachment against non-muslims’

    do they physically subject you RSS chaddi wallas via sinister experiments or do your utterly feeble brains fart out gems like this by themselves??

    Existance as a form of agression???? What’s next??

    You need to apologize to any and all who actually had the misfortune to waste bandwidth and time reading such mental excrement.

  205. D_a_n

    correction.

    subject you RSS chaddi wallas via sinister experiments = subject you RSS chaddi wallas to mind control via sinister experiments….

  206. vajra

    @Ajay

    Would you prefer to sort these differences out one at a time, resolving each before moving on to the next?

    That is perfectly fine with me. Please let me know.

  207. Ajay

    Vajra,
    I guess we have exhausted this topic. I do wish to thank you for your patience and replies, and aside from a bit of rancor, it was a good discussion. I shall also take care to be more careful about my posts in future. I did learn quite a bit so thank you for that too. Do keep posting.

  208. Jasmine

    Wow, this is funny, but also slightly disturbing, in its delusional psychosis.

    You are a nation considered around the world to be little more than synonymous with terrorism, beheading, suicide bombing, fanaticism, and an exporter of terrorism, obscurantism, backwardness and extremism.

    In Europe you are viewed as virulent, intolerant, backwards, violent people prone to terrorism. In Britain your very name has become a racist slur, synonymous with the worst kinds of things – cousing-marriage and in-breeding, religious fanaticism and bigotry, misogyny and terrorism. The same is true throughout the world, in America, Canada, everywhere you go, Pakistan is viewed in this way.

    The cognitive dissonance on display by the author here is hilarious – but in a way, understandable. When your very identity is so loathed throughout humanity, it is easier to curl up into a ball and enter into comforting hallucinations. If it makes you feel better, it serves a purpose, I suppose. But at some time, you are going to have to wake up to the reality, and its a cold sharp slap in the face that you will wake up to.

  209. Milind Kher

    We Indians are merrily freaking out taking up almost all the utilized bandwidth on a Pakistani site.

    PTH, thanks for your generosity to us!

  210. Luq

    @Milind
    There is another site where we were thinking your involvement is required especially with your liberal and secular views. Plus there is a whole bunch of like minded folks on a google group where again you could be involved in a positive way.
    Could you send me mail to luqmaan.blr (at) gmail.com
    Luq

  211. updike

    To D_a_n

    Use decent language.

    In a society where one adult person has one vote an increase in population component translates into political aggression and then into other aggressions also.

    Existence can be a form of aggression if you (and yout faith) represent an aggressive expansionist imperialist ideology like islam, if you represent arab hegemony and culture in non-arab societies and areas, if you distort history-narration to eliminate the non-arab and non-islamic history, if you produce too many children and exploit the resources of the earth ruinously i.e. beyond her ability to regenerate herself timely.

    You need to get out of your totalitarian indoctrination that islam and islam alone is good, great, final and unquestionable and then you will be able to write with more calm and reason and respect for others. Then you won’t need to use filthy angry language against those who reject islam and its mendacious claims. The god-concept of islam is a 7th century totalitarian and fascistic one and not suited to the needs and wishes of the 21st century. It is dificult for an indoctrinated pakistani to realize this. But some intelligent pakistanis have realized this.

  212. Milind Kher

    @Jasmine,

    There are many impressions that a lot of people outside Pakistan have about it.

    However, let us respect the fact that there are people like YLH, AZW etc working hard to create a different kind of Pakistan.

    We could have talked about cognitive dissonance if the same people had talked and done different things. In this case, we are linking the statements of one with actions of the other.

  213. vks

    Thank your for ur post

    Happy news to cricket Fans
    IPL(Indian Premier League) LIVE coming on google
    visit:http://freshnewz.co.cc/

  214. hindu militant

    You guys really make me laugh. Pakistani players were not selected. It is left to the buyer to buy. Why the sellers feel insulted? If you feel insulted ; so be it. Secondly pakistan has got resources, and can beat india in every field? You joking? Before partition, the muslim league was asked the same thing. What land,(north-western India) you are asking is the most unproductive land ever. How can you build a state. the adamants said, we dont min d, just give us the land. What can you really produce? Apart from west punjab what else is there? The reason, why India (and china, and brazil and russia) are progressing is very simple. HUGE countries, that give them resources and hence progress. How can a country one tenth the size of India compete with India? Wake up and smell the coffee. I am laughing my axx out!!!

  215. ylh

    Oh my god yet another scoundrel.

  216. Hayyer

    I wish Hindu Militant and his kind, if they must make an appearance here, would base their posts on something more than simple prejudice.

  217. Sameet

    @hindu militant,

    “How can a country one tenth the size of India compete with India? …”

    Please google population of India & Pakistan (latest World Bank numbers) and you will find India only 7 times (not 10 times) larger than Pakistan. Besides that statistical anomaly in your post, would like to inform you that Bangladesh competes with India and many other “HUGE” countries in garments & textiles and it is Germany, miniscule compared to US & China perhaps, that is the biggest exporting country in the world (China may have overtaken it very recently)…so yes, a smaller country can be competitive….

    PS: cool it, I am as Hindu as you are, perhaps a more sensible one….