Taking Over Pakistan

Pakistan as a security state

By Irfan Husain  | Dawn 12 Dec, 2009 

Jawaharlal Nehru (left) and Ayub Khan in Karachi. PHOTO: THE HINDU PHOTO LIBRARY

Over the years, many readers have asked me why Pakistan should fear an attack from India. They suggest that as we are under no threat from our eastern neighbour, our army could move more of its troops to the Afghan border where heavy fighting is going on, and where our embattled units could do with reinforcements.

For the answer to this question, we need to enter into the innermost recesses of the Pakistani security establishment’s psyche. The younger generations on both sides of the border obviously have no direct knowledge of the bitterness and bloodshed that attended partition.

I was three when we arrived in Karachi from New Delhi, and the story of how our train was attacked on the way is part of the family lore. I have a vague recollection of Liaquat Ali Khan’s famous speech in which he pointed his fist in India’s direction in a show of defiance. He was assassinated shortly thereafter, in 1951.

For just a brief moment, step into the shoes of a senior army officer surveying the strategic scenario from his GHQ in Rawalpindi, shortly after the birth of Pakistan. He sees a large, hostile neighbour to the east. East Pakistan is separated from West Pakistan by over 1,000 miles of Indian territory. Hordes of refugees are flooding across the border. Many of the military resources that were to be transferred to Pakistan have been blocked by India.

Soon after partition, hostilities begin in Kashmir, confirming the establishment’s worst fears about Indian intentions. Never mind that after the initial attack launched by tribesmen into Kashmir to help their Muslim brethren, it was the Pakistan Army that played a major role. In the mind of most Pakistanis at the time, this was a legitimate campaign to bring Muslim-majority Kashmir into the fold.

Even as a child, I remember hearing constant talk about how India wanted to ‘undo’ partition, and was waiting for the new state to collapse. Newspapers were often full of statements by leaders on both sides of the border hurling threats and accusations at each other.

Against this backdrop of fear and paranoia, it is easy to see why the Pakistani leadership reached to the West to bolster security. India had already established close relations with the Soviet Union, and China had not recovered from decades of chaos caused by war and civil strife.

Every state has security concerns, and needs resources to address them. The task of the leadership is to decide how total available funds will be divided between the imperative of guarding national frontiers, and the needs of the population. In a democracy, these competing demands on the exchequer are mediated through parliament. But when the military seizes control of the state, it can dictate the size of the cake it wants for itself.

In Pakistan, where we currently have all the outer trappings of democracy, the army has made sure that elected governments are too weak to challenge it either on the question of resource allocation, or over core security-related policies. The recent army-inspired furore over the Kerry-Lugar Act is an indication of the grip the generals have on real power.

Over the years, the army came to perceive that apart from external threats, it also had to guard against internal weakness. In the eyes of the military establishment, the political class and the democratic system were both sources of instability, and thus had to be kept under strict check. What it failed to see (and still does not) is that its own repeated interventions have done more to weaken the fabric of the state than any other factor.

By becoming the self-appointed guardian of ‘Pakistan’s ideological frontiers,’ the army took on a third role, and one for which it needed the cooperation of the Islamic parties.

This suited the mullahs perfectly, as it permitted them to advance their reactionary agenda in a Muslim country where they were regularly thumped at the polls. This marriage of convenience was sanctified during the Afghan war when jihadis from around the world flocked to fight the godless Soviet Union.

Generations of young officers at the military academy at Kakul have been taught that India is the eternal enemy; and that civilians are a necessary evil who have to be endured, but never trusted. A part of this indoctrination is the notion that one Muslim soldier is equal to 10 Hindus.

These are the officers now manning the highest positions of the defence forces. They are also the ones who shape Pakistan’s foreign relations, especially with nations affecting our security.

In the 1990s, when India made rapid economic strides, it became clear to even our military establishment that Pakistan could no longer compete in terms of conventional military power. While we matched India’s nuclear programme at crippling expense, we could not keep up with our traditional foe in terms of planes, tanks and men.

Above all, we had lost the technological edge that American weaponry had given us. Years of sanctions triggered by our nuclear programme lie behind the anti-Americanism that infects our officer corps, and through them, much of our media.

In order to restore the military balance, our establishment turned to the army of jihadis raised to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. When the Kashmiri uprising began spontaneously following rigged elections in the late 1980s, Pakistan reacted by first training Kashmiri freedom fighters, and then infiltrating Pakistani terrorists belonging to various jihadi outfits. India responded by sending in several army divisions. This suited our generals fine, as they had tied down close to half a million Indian soldiers by sending in just a few thousand jihadis.

In Afghanistan, Pakistan’s support of the Taliban in this period held out the promise of a compliant government in Kabul. These policies were turned on their head by 9/11, when all forms of terrorism began to be viewed as anathema by the international community. The Americans, in particular, put huge pressure on Musharraf to halt his use of Islamic holy warriors as proxies.

But old habits die hard. India is still seen as the real foe. Above all, Pakistan’s generals are convinced that sooner rather than later, the Americans will be forced to pull out because of flagging public support, much as they did from Vietnam. In this scenario, they are sure India would be asked to step in to ensure that the Taliban do not return to Kabul.

Should this happen, Pakistan would be encircled by Indian forces, and this is the security state’s worst nightmare.

195 Comments

Filed under Army, Colonialism, Democracy, India, Islamism, Pakistan, Partition, south asia, state

195 responses to “Taking Over Pakistan

  1. Milind Kher

    The security state’s nightmare is completely unfounded. The Indian army will never be an occupying force in Afghanistan.

    India does not want its soldiers to die fighting a cause not its own, and with all kinds of constraints. The IPKF disaster in Sri Lanka was the first and the last time.

    Yet, it is for sure that if the Pak security forces do not decimate the terrorists, the terrorists will make life for an average Pakistani hell.

  2. Mustafa Shaban

    this article is totally biased against the Army, also Pakistan Army is competing with Indian Army both conventially and in nuclear field as well and in some aspects has even surpassed indian power even though india invest more money on its Armed forces.

  3. Gorki

    “Generations of young officers at the military academy at Kakul have been taught…civilians are a necessary evil who have to be endured, but never trusted…”
    “This suited the mullahs perfectly, as it permitted them to advance their reactionary agenda in a Muslim country where they were regularly thumped at the polls”

    After interacting with many decent Pakistanis over the last few months, I have come to the conclusion that the above two statements sum up the tragedy of this otherwise vibrant nation.

    Regards.

  4. Milind Kher

    India continues to be a bogey raised by Pakistani rulers to evade the responsibility of taking Pakistan ahead on the path of peace and prosperity.

    There are two simple things needed to be done. Crush the terrorists. Focus on business. Whenever Pakistan takes a hard stand against India, this gives the Hindutvavadis a stick to beat the secular government with.

  5. lal

    I Dont think India will walk into the trap of moving its army into afghanistan …therewas a discussion in the BJP government at the time when War on terror started to become a part of the multinational force…but better sense prevailed….Infact i was googling indian army in afghanistan and the reports are all from pakistan about india planning to send 150000 of its soldiers to afg…it is not reported nor discussed in the indian media….

    PS:if pakistan wants ,it can ask the chinese to sent its army to afghan…we have no objection🙂

  6. vajra

    @Gorki

    Generations of young officers at the military academy at Kakul have been taught that India is the eternal enemy; and that civilians are a necessary evil who have to be endured, but never trusted. A part of this indoctrination is the notion that one Muslim soldier is equal to 10 Hindus.

    this article is totally biased against the Army, also Pakistan Army is competing with Indian Army both conventially and in nuclear field as well and in some aspects has even surpassed indian power even though india invest more money on its Armed forces.

    Subtlety doesn’t work with our young student from Dubai. ‘Have keyboard, will opine.’

  7. Bloody Civilian

    @Mustafa Shaban

    Pakistan Army is competing with Indian Army both conventially and in nuclear field as well and in some aspects has even surpassed indian power even though india invest more money on its Armed forces

    if only the PA establishment had competed with IA on respecting the constitution and obediently serving it and the constitutional govt..

    i don’t know which of your two heroes’ views you follow on democracy; imran khan or zahid hamid? the latter’s views suit the mullahs perfectly of course, since he recommends just another type of dictatorship.

    “This suited the mullahs perfectly, as it permitted them to advance their reactionary agenda in a Muslim country where they were regularly thumped at the polls”

  8. Milind Kher

    The Pakistan army does not need to currently worry about the Indian army. The situation is not so hostile. However, there is a definite need to have the troops at their best in counter insurgency operations.

    The attacks on GHQ and ISI underscore this need. Also, the operations against TTP are far from over. Let us hope some good gains accrue from the counter insurgency operations and the scope is also extended to Punjab.

  9. PMA

    There is a well known cliche; ’empires come to die in Afghanistan’. Greeks, Persians, Brits, Soviets–all have tasted that poison. If Americans are smart, they will ‘do the job and get out before it is too late’, what ever that ‘job’ is. Recently gained economic and political clout has given Indian military and political class reasons to ‘think big’ and venture beyond its own borders. Ashokan symbols of grandeur remain part of Indian psyche. Indian military bases in Tajikistan in Central Asia, expansion of its naval presence in the Arabian sea, and extensive command-and-control centers in Andamans in the Far East are few of the examples of her recent new international ambitions. Indian growing military and civilian presence in Afghanistan, her strategic military alliance with the USA, and enhanced ‘cooperation’ with Iranian Mullahs are building blocks of a new ‘Indian Empire’ of the 21st. century. Pakistan and its military structure happen to be an inconvenient road block in the way of the Indian march. How would this new Indian Empire fair in Afghanistan? Interesting times are ahead of us.

  10. mohammad

    Both india and pakistan can not afford perpetual hostilities, as army expenditures conventional or otherwise are just negative equity. With that there seem to be a world order where ‘might is right’ is the reality. We asians are some how playing the game of catching up with most sophisticated and civilised nations in terms of development of lethal weapons, thankfully we are not using them to satisfy our insatiable hunger for natural resources. For the good of humanity every body including the most advanced countries have to change priorities, it is sad that even in 21st century we fail to appreciate peace and dialogue and resort to violence to achieve our objectives. In current atmosphere Pakistan certainly needs rapid reaction force with superior fire and operational capability with effective intelligence apparatus for it’s internal security, unfortunately we have no other choice .

  11. Milind Kher

    @PMA,

    India will never involve itself militarily in Pakistan. As far as Iran is concerned, although relations are fairly good, they are not uniformly and consistently so. Iran is not happy with the Indian vote against it in the IAEA.

    Understand that the economic and political clout that India has is one that has been earned by dint of sheer hard work. And India will not fritter it away for the sake of a misadventure in Afghanistan.

  12. Mustafa Shaban

    @BC: My point was that to point out the error the articlke made when comparing India and Pakistans nuclear and conventional capability.

    @Milind Kher: In my opinion things with India are kind of tense now especially since aggressive comments came from the Indian Army Cheif threatning short nuclear war and stuff like that. Bellegirent comments from Indian Army and establishment has got Pakistan Army on high alert. So they are pressurized from the east and west at the same time.

  13. Suv

    @PMA
    I don’t understand your reference to Ashokan grandeur. Ashoka had great army and resources at his command, perhaps even greater than Alexander or Darius, but he did not venture out of subcontinent and gave up fighting. In 5000 year of Indian history perhaps the only army to go out of India to conquer was Chola empire. I really doubt if India is doing anything other than securing its commercial interests. If it does it will be a major break from history.

  14. Hayyer

    I’ve no doubt that India would have loved an invite to be in Afghanistan along with NATO, and despite indications that it was thought of, it never came about, which must have been because of Pakistan.
    No one need take fright over the idea that India will replace the US when it quits Afghanistan. Despite its regional ambitions India is unlikely to get stuck with the white man’s burden all by itself.
    It is an excellent idea to invite the Chinese to do battle with the Taliban instead. The proposed Sino-American coordination in South Asia would have a fine start this way. It is time the Chinese empire had its day in Afghanistan.

  15. Suv

    @Hayyer
    India did get an invite and was in fact pressurized to send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq but it felt wiser to provide humanitarian aid instead which will create goodwill instead of army which will make India a subject of hate.

    In fact India has even refused request to train Afghan army even when it is training civil servants, police officers and doctors because it does not want to be seen in any way a part of occupying force.
    http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/dec/04/obamas-strategy-is-more-about-us-than-afghanistan.htm

    If China joins in Afghanistan it will be latest grave for an upcoming empire. It will also spell trouble for China in East Turkestan so I doubt if China will ever get involved in Afghanistan

  16. Vijay Goel

    @PMA I agree with all other Indians that we have our hands full with Major Works to do in India.Education Health Drinking Water Roads etc. etc.You name it and we have a problem to solve.And as pointed out (One pakistani soldier equal to 10 Indian soldiers).It might have been said rhetorically but mentally I am sure Indians have no ambition to venture outside though we believe when it comes to sacrifice our Army or citizenry are second to none.

  17. Hossp

    “Generations of young officers at the military academy at Kakul have been taught that India is the eternal enemy; and that civilians are a necessary evil who have to be endured, but never trusted.”

    That is how the armies the world over are trained. Pakistan army did not invent the military training manuals nor did they come up with the word civvies or enemy. So is the Indian army trains w/o a perceived enemy?

    There is nothing new in the article Irfan Hussain must have written this article fifty times already.

    Let us be realistic, we need to deal with the current situation and the future. By now everyone who can read a paper in Pakistan knows this history, how long people like Irafan Hussain would just continue to write and rewrite the same BS?
    The current situation is that the army that created the jihadi groups is now forced to deal with them too. And that is just the beginning. There is no pious role playing going on in Afghanistan and India is a player there. Pakistan has to
    deal with that too.
    To learn about the role the Pak army is playing people need to read Pentagon’s history too.
    People like Irfan Husain have to write a column three times a week and the guy simply is bereft of ideas on how to deal with the current situation.

  18. Milind Kher

    @Mustafa Shaban,

    Whatever the Chief of Army Staff says, (and his statement “limited war with a nuclear overhang is vague) without the PM and President taking action, nothing will move. That is the beauty of a civilian administration.

    I would still imagine that energies would be utilized correctly in taking the terrorists head on. Somehow the Pakistan administration and the Pakistan army does not seem to have felt that tackling the Punjab terrorists is important too.

  19. PMA

    Hossp (December 13, 2009 at 8:13 pm):

    “There is no pious role playing going on in Afghanistan and India is a player there. Pakistan has to deal with that too.”

    Any predictions Hossp Sahab? I mean July 2011 is only eighteen months away; not too long before the mid-term American elections. Mr. Obama does not wish to be another Jimmy Carter. Do Indians have stomach for overseas adventures?

  20. Luq

    >this article is totally biased against the Army,also
    >Pakistan Army is competing with Indian Army
    >both conventially and in nuclear field as well and

    political? that the word you are looking for?

    Hey, Mustafa, you are being modest.

    They form military juntas every few years and you don’t even need to print an invitation.

    Something which the IA never had the guts to try.

    What do you say?

    They also run a lot of things which the civilian govt should be running.

    Luq.

  21. Punjabi

    Its really surprising how certain Indians and pakistanis are about each other.

    I met a prominent Pakistani english language columnist over dinner a week ago. He is patriotic, nationalistic. He thinks pakistan is acting suicidally but hates it if others say it, he is no fan of the military or the mullahs but is a believer and a patriot. He scorns any indian expressions of regret over partition, has travelled in India, writes for Indian papers and appears to bear India no ill will at all other than a general resentment for the hostility India exhibits and its constant defamation of pakistan on the world stage.

    So far so good. but what really surprised me was how certain he was of what was in the hearts of Indians, what their perspectives were, and how much his positions on India were based on that. Except that to me his perspective was such a cliche-esque caricature, spottily correct, but so incomplete and so imbalanced.

    I begin to think that Indians’ view of pakistanis is probably just as just as incomplete and imbalanced, but I do still believe that India looms much larger in the pakistani national discourse than vice versa. But as I write this, I begin to have doubts.

    Still, let me push on this business of misperceptions and deepak kapoor. THe pakistani press went nuts, the Pakistani PM reacted, the blogosphere lit up. but I gave it no thought, not even when the columnist mentioned it. After I read Mustafa Shaban mention it here, I decided to look it up and sent an IM to an Indian journalist friend, quoted below:

    Me: Do you have a link to the statement by deepak kapoor that has so upset the Pakistanis?
    Him: Who is deepak kapoor?
    Me: Indian COAS
    Him: oh thats right. Let me check

    Indians, apart from the 11 juvenile hypernationalists on the internet, don’t care who deepak kapoor is. they don’t care what he says. He is just a sarkari naukar. He does not make or communicate policy. No politician, citizen or media person gives a damn about what he thinks or wants. The government does not speak through him. And what did he say? that there is a risk of limited nuclear war. He may be right in which case we should be worried, or he may be right in which case he should be castigated for being wrong. But look at the reaction from pakistan.

    This indicated that India was preparing for nuclear war?! That this was a deliberate threat to Pakistan?! The Pakistani PM is giving responses to the statemements of an Indian army officer?! WTF?!

    But looking at it from the pakistani perspective, it makes some sort of sense of if you consider the historical status of the Pakistani COAS, the distrust towards India, the insecurities, conviction about India’s belligerent towards pakistan. It seems people are primed to get hysterical.

    Both my encounter with the pakistani columnist and this deepak kapoor business got me thinking how much misperception, inclination to draw negative conclusions, and hysteria define the indo-pak relationship. OF course, I am inclined to think that the hysteria and disconnect from reality is all on the other side, and no doubt the pakistanis, like me transfer responsibility for the situation onto the Indians.

    For my part, I am going to try and question everything that I think I know about pakistan and pakistanis. like this business of how pakistanis are indoctrinated to hate hindus in school. I don’t know that they are. I don’t know that they do. I don’t see that I should presume that what I know is correct and fair.

    I am not about to stop thinking that pakistan is on the wrong track or that pakistanis and indians are a common people or that pakistan has an unhealthy and suicidal obsession with India and kashmir, or that pakistan took a disastrously wrong turn when it opened itself up to islamism and the use of private islamist militias, or that kashmiris are lucky that India didn’t do in kashmir what pakistan did in bengal. For me these are such essential truths that I can no more choose to stop believing them than I can stop believing that night will come in a few hours. But I realize that this not a complete or balanced view of pakistan because there is endless nuance and variation, and there is a whole pakistan in addition to the snippets that I observe and think about.

    No doubt there are seeds, or even forests, of truth in what we believe about the other but we are wrong in believing what we see to be an adequately whole and balanced perspecetive. We really owe it to ourselves to recognize that we each drive the diseased indo-pak dynamic atleast as much as the other does. To be certain about our perspective while also being wrong is extremely toxic.

    We, all of us, need to start giving each other the benefit of the doubt, and doubting our own perspective and convictions a bit while we’re at it.

  22. Kiran

    As an indian citizen let me say that New delhi cannot be trusted with any excess power other than the bare minimum it needs to defend its borders. Especially the Indian national congress …one of the most vily political organizations in the world. BJP is not vily but dangerously stupid.

    Excess power to India means the world having to suffer the decisions of the delusional policy makers there.

  23. vajra

    @Punjabi

    You are probably correct in your five principles (what is that, a kneejerk Indian mental habit?); as for the rest, welcome to the club.

    It’s been – what? – about a month or so since I’ve noticed you writing in? It took some of us other Indians regularly contributing to PTH comments considerably longer to come to much the same conclusions (honorable exception of Luq, who ‘got it’ much quicker).

    My personal take: the older generation has locked itself in with its slightly ill-conceived response to the existential question that their nation faced in its infancy. Instead of going on and living their free and natural lives as a nation, falling into a habit of democracy by holding more or less free elections every now and then, more or less on schedule, suffering the corruptions and depredations of politicians and learning slowly how to handle them and how much to trust them, they nearly killed themselves and their nation with their conspiracy theories.

    Fortunately, there is a significant section of the younger citizens who have figured out for themselves that their wise ‘uncles’ are the silly clots who created this mess in the first place, with their posturing and their fatuous strategic armchair analysis. One of them is worried about this Indian rush of blood to the head, which has led us to Tajikistan, the Arabian Sea and the Far East, that is, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Apparently, although anticipating international mapmakers a little, he agrees with Indonesia that this archipelago belongs to that country. And so on.

    The only hope is to filter out “the 11 juvenile hypernationalists” on the Indian side, the ‘uncles’ on the Pakistani side and ensure that we are ourselves, as individuals as well as a nation, in a position to help when sensible Pakistani elements get a sudden break. Their numbers are visibly growing, although still a minuscule minority – like every leadership elite.

  24. Akash

    PMA,
    May God make your prognosis come true!🙂 Btw I didn’t know we had military presence in Afghanistan. We have barely enough to keep the country together. Sounds like shades of Muhammad Tughlaq, if this is true. I know for sure that there are hardly any Indian soldiers in Afghanistan. That is purely the result of this hypothesis where 1 Muslim soldier is equal to 10 Hindu soldiers. So, we need all of them at the border with Pakistan. Well, one day there may be more Muslims soldiers in our Army then we can think about Afghanistan.
    Akash

  25. Gorki

    I once heard a story rather long time ago (it remains unconfirmed) that the only time a military coup was a concern in India was when General Chaudhuri, an especially outspoken officer was the COAS.
    It was brought to Nehru’s attention that the general had a cabinet in his office that always remained locked and not even his senior aides had ever viewed its contents.
    Nehru decided to approach this issue headon and confronted the General saying “It is rumored that you keep a locked secret cabinet in your office. What do hide there, secret plans for a coup?

    “No Sir, I do not keep coup plans locked in my secret cabinet, it is a bottle of my favorite whiskey”
    The general is supposed to have replied.

    Punjabi:
    Loved your well thought out and equally well written post, especially the following:

    “Indians, apart from the 11 juvenile hypernationalists on the internet, don’t care who deepak kapoor is. they don’t care what he says. He is just a sarkari naukar. He does not make or communicate policy. No politician, citizen or media person gives a damn about what he thinks or wants”
    As long as the Indian COAS remains this uninteresting, we will remain OK as a nation.😉

    Regards.

    Regards.

  26. Luq

    brilliant Mr Punjabi dair aaye par durst aaye.
    kapoor cant even throw a cigar butt across the border without permission or orders from the civilian govt.
    Also just to clarify – deepak kapoor’s remark meant the we can continue fighting some sort of limited war like kargil even with nukes in our pocket and without reaching into our pockets.
    Luq

  27. Hayyer

    Well put Punjabi.

  28. Punjabi

    @Gorki,

    Thanks!🙂

    @Vajra and Luq,

    Thank you but I don’t know that you ought to commend me for anything. If I am understanding the dysfunction a tiny bit more clearly, that isn’t making me feel tender about the dysfunction or about the religious or political jingoism that are at the heart of it.

    No doubt I am quite guilty myself. but I want to believe that I try to find out within myself attitudes and perspectives that are inconsistent with what I claim to advocate and expunge them. Its probably just a self serving conceit but then all of us need to believe that we are right, just and righteous.

    cheers.

  29. Hayyer

    Re this India in Afghanistan business and Pakistani fears of encirclement-Shouldn’t India have been equally fearful of Pakistani encirclement from Nepal and Bangladesh, which Pakistan has used for decades to run missions into India. Curiously, or perhaps of its long duration India’s response is one of a bored languor. India is relatively speaking only a recent user of similar strategy, and only after Pakistan’s Baloch troubles and its use of the Afghan anti Russian model for Kashmir.
    Of course soldiers must be taught to fight the enemy. India has two of them, but soldiers are not taught in their recruitment centres to hate Muslims and Buddhists. Some time ago NATO and American soldiers must have indoctrinated to fight Russians and East Europeans but who are they are trained to fight now? Who were Indian soldiers trained to hate before 1947-Germans and Japanese and Turks and Italians and who else? Surely they weren’t taught to hate anyone, just to fight.
    Belief in the 10:1 formula should have given Pakistan repose because its army would then outnumber India’s 5:1. That doesn’t seem to have happened.
    Indian soldiers cannot be taught to hate Muslims. Some Indian regiments are mixed Hindu Muslim Sikh Christian. A military pedagogy based on religious phobias would not take off. Does the training establishment believe that arousing religious fervour make Pakistani soldiers better fighters?

  30. Mustafa Shaban

    @Milind Kher: How do you propose the Pak Army should tackle terrorism in Punjab. Do you think we should have a military operation there? What about using intellegence and police operations? How significant is the threat from Punjab? I have only heard little of Punjab Taliban actually. I think we should have military operation as a last resort. Hopefully there are alternative ways to deal with it becuase you cant keep having the Army operate all over Pakistan as it would raise lots of problems. I am not sure of Punjab Taliban but definitely some of the shouting from the US concerning OBL and Mullah Omer networks in Quetta and other areas of Pakistan is total bullshit and Army action in these different places will overstretch the Army.

  31. Mustafa Shaban

    @Milind: Also , the civilian administration in India is very hawkish and aggressive. They are not crazy like the Army Chief, but sometimes hawkish politicians can depart from logic or rational thinking at times.

  32. Majumdar

    PMA sb,

    Recently gained economic and political clout has given Indian military and political class reasons to ‘think big’ and venture beyond its own borders. Ashokan symbols of grandeur remain part of Indian psyche. Indian military bases in Tajikistan in Central Asia, expansion of its naval presence in the Arabian sea, and extensive command-and-control centers in Andamans in the Far East are few of the examples of her recent new international ambitions.

    You are not the only commentator who has written about this. One of my favourite analysts Moin ansari saheb has widely written about India’s imperial ambitions in “rupeenews”. He has drawn attention of the Caste Hindoo imperialists dream of reviving the “Mahabharat” Empire stretching from A’stan in the West to “Rajkalhani” in the East

    (Rajkalhani apparently is an island East of Bali maybe resident historians of this Forum like Babu Vajrangi and Yasser Pai will shed some light on this island)

    How would this new Indian Empire fair in Afghanistan? Interesting times are ahead of us.

    Personally I think this Indian Empire will fare not very fair if it steps into A’stan. Personally of course I wud prefer that India keep away from A’stan and let Pakistan acquire A’stan. The “interesting times” shud be reserved for our Pakistani friends (as the Chinese wud recommend).

    Regards

  33. Bloody Civilian

    Hayyer

    A military pedagogy based on religious phobias would not take off

    do you really think what a brigadier said (the 6:1 ratio) under a bygone dictatorship has made it into the pedagogy at PMA?? the dictator at the time was a racist…. and he was a dictator.

    general jingosim is something else. just like there is a difference between a little bit of jingoism and a col purohit in the indian army.

  34. rex minor

    The Indians have always trusted others (including those who have a history of colonising Nations) but its direct neighbours, whereas, Pakistan have always mistrusted India and its allies. but somehow remained friendly to the anglosaxons who have even broken the written and non-written agreements with Pakistan. The Pushtoons do not trust anyone but themselves!

  35. Hayyer

    BC:
    I was referring to the information given in the main article that the 10:1 ratio is preached in the PMA.
    I was also responding to Hossp’s point that it is only natural that Pakistani soldiers should be trained to view Hindus as the enemy.
    This article is about Pakistan’s security concerns, and these were till quite recently exclusively India centric-now of course, the US imposes itself on the scene. Pakistan security concerns are a jumble up of memories of 1971, and an unrelenting aggressiveness about Kashmir.
    With nuclear weapons on both sides and a conventional war standoff Pakistan’s options are confined to non state actors, but NSAs can provoke an unwanted war, which is the source of the anxiety about security. India’s imperial ambitions or lack thereof are probably a red herring used by your army to defend its role inside Pakistan.
    It is convenient to view India as an imperial hegemon. The real imperialist in our neighbourhood is China, whom Pakistan does not fear. Logically speaking if it were not for the Indian bogey Pakistan should have every reason to be fearful of China. If J&K had acceded to Pakistan its adversary would have been China because of Ladakh. And it is possible to imagine Pakistan allied with the US, not just against godless communism as in the fifties and early sixties, but also to defend its territory. If the soldiery can be can be provoked to wrath against idolaters how much more can they against godless atheists? The point I was trying to make, and I am not being provocative, was that Pakistan’s security, vis a vis India, is a self created nightmare. It is possible to wake up from it in an eastern dawn.
    India’s imperial ambitions may exist as in the wet dreams of adolescent RSS types, but not beyond. The most that RSS types talk of is undoing partition. Do Indians dream of extending their reach from Afghanistan to Bali? I haven’t ever met anyone who does.
    Too much is made of Col Purohit. He went free lancing as a serving officer and paid the price when he was found out. I don’t say there are no fundamentalist types in the Indian army but such sentiments have to be concealed.
    Religious hostility is pretty well embedded in sub-continental society, but public expression of it in India is politically incorrect and certainly frowned upon if expressed openly. It does manifest in such matters as Muslims finding it hard to rent premises, but I would not have known of it unless I read about it in the press.

  36. Punjabi

    As an Indian, I am horrified at the prospect of an Indian military presence in afghanistan for combat.

    I can just imagine that every one of those hordes of mujahideen of LeT et al who aren’t interested in fighting americans or helping the afghans would show up en mass in afghanistan for the opportunity to kill indian soldiers.

    Afghanistan isn’t obama’s vietnam, but it would surely be India’s.

    As far as Indian imperialism, I see no evidence of it. If India is so imperialistic and so determined to undo partition, it would have just kept east Bengal in 1971 under the guise of reintegrating the bengali homeland.

    If the burmese, the nepalese, the sri lankans, the bangladeshis do not fret about Indian imperialism but pakistanis do, its because Pakistanis are insecure about it. Everybody grumbles about the Indian hegemony (the perpetual state of relations between local giants and minnows), but they don’t fear for their sovereignty and security from India.

    Only pakistan does.

  37. Bloody Civilian

    Hayyer

    I’m afraid the last sentence of my post was open to being misunderstood. What I meant was that just because there was a col purohit does not mean that the quite normal, slight jingoism of young indian officers can be thought of having anything remotely in common with him.

    the 6:1 statement comes from an individual brigadier from 1965. ayub’s prejudices were that of an individual… who, nevertheless, happened to be the dictator.

    the whisky drinking officers of the PA had no reason to bring idolatory or religion into it. the ‘soviets are more non-muslim than americans’ stupidity was part and parcel of zia-ism. gen akbar obviously saw no issues in alighing himself with the godless communists as far as his planned coup was concerned.

    if kashmir had been part of pakistan, we might have had the ladakh issue with china, but india would still have had the eastern areas of dispute. the pakistani dictatorship would have not had to lie (even for the sake of appearances) to the americans about the true purpose of mililtary aid. whether the PLA would have been as reckless (uncharacteristic of the Chinese) as it was in 1962 would have depended, in part, on the state of indo-pak relations.

    returning to the real world, 1962 was no blessing for pakistan. 1965 made it worse. the less said about 1971, the better. but that is the problem with dictatorship; it cannot deal with the complexities of looking reasonably far ahead… nor take anything other than a very narrow view.

  38. Hayyer

    Well said, BC. However, speaking hypothetically only, and purely for argument’s sake India’s eastern problem was actually a give away by China. That is what Zhou enLai offered Nehru in April 1960 on a visit to Delhi, in exchange for India accepting the Ladakh division line. Nehru said no, but without the Ladakh problem in the west he would have had no reason to refuse. If Ladakh were part of Pakistan the Dalai Lama may well have sought refuge in Kashmir with Pakistan.
    China wanted to ensure ownership of the Aksai Chin area because its the road connecting Tibet with Xinjiang ran through Ladakh.
    Now imagine all those Uighur nationalists directly connected to Pakistan through Ladakh and Kashmir-How would the Chinese have behaved with Pakistan? There were no Taliban then of course.
    Remember, in 1959-60 Pakistan was well embedded in SEATO and CENTO, i.e. totally hostile to China. India on the other hand was just emerging from the Hindi Chini bhai bhai hangover, which it need never have, but for Ladakh. India first got into problems with China in October of 1958 in Hot Springs, Ladakh,-then, both sides temporarily covered up. The Dalai Lama crossed over in 1959. But for a quirk of history would India and China still be swearing undying friendship in 2009 while US/Pak looked on nervously?
    Just food for thought of course.

  39. PMA

    Hayyer (December 14, 2009 at 6:49 pm):

    Do you really think that I would believe in such nonsense. Once a retired Indian Army colonel told me that everything else being equal, an average Pakistani soldier was a better fighter than his Indian counterpart. His reasoning was that Pakistani soldier fights for his God and for his Country whereas Indian soldier is only following the orders of his superiors. I don’t know how true it is but I know Sikhs are good fighters.

  40. PMA

    Hayyer (December 14, 2009 at 10:53 pm):

    India-China border dispute was in the news again. What is your take on that.

  41. vajra

    @Hayyer

    I was referring to the information given in the main article that the 10:1 ratio is preached in the PMA.


    Do you really think that I would believe in such nonsense. Once a retired Indian Army colonel told me that everything else being equal, an average Pakistani soldier was a better fighter than his Indian counterpart. His reasoning was that Pakistani soldier fights for his God and for his Country whereas Indian soldier is only following the orders of his superiors. I don’t know how true it is but I know Sikhs are good fighters.

    I really feel sorry for you; you are up against an ego of heroic proportions.

    As far as the rest is concerned, it is of a piece with the martial races myths with which a certain ageing class of doctrinaires solace themselves in the face of the evidence. You might like to drop a hint or two about the composition of the British Indian Army that conquered the Punjab.

  42. Hayyer

    PMA:
    I have believed for some time that a propensity to battle is not a good benchmark for judging humans. Given enough cause anyone will fight. It is a cultural thing in some communities, but I wonder if a fighting gene exists?
    Beverly Nichols asked in his ‘Verdict on India’ “How do you teach a bunch of non violent Madrassis the elements of tank warfare?” The martial Sikhs found out when they went to Sri Lanka as part of the peace keeping mission. And Walter Lawrence records that the martial races of the Punjab did not do so well in Europe in WWI as other Indian troops did.
    Look at Israel. Did anyone believe that Jews could fight like they did in ’56, or even that there could be Jewish terrorism?
    And the great Romans; what about them? Are present day Italians of the same stock or just culturally more advanced?
    India’s relations with China are more complex today than they were then. Back in the 50’s and 60’s both were backward newly emergent countries; but even then China had fought off the US in Korea and the Peoples Army had fought the KMT and the Japanese for nearly 20 years; beaten one and fought off the other. India apart from its common soldiers was inexperienced in conducting even small wars.
    Today China wants to intimidate India, and we, while apprehensive would rather fight than bend and bow. Despite Chinese growling I don’t think real conflict is likely.

  43. vajra

    @Majumdar

    Sometimes in recent times one senses in your writings a sense of seeking, a desire for attention. Are you reduced to quoting admiringly from Moin Ansari now? Would you not like to join our student from Dubai in sitting at the lotus feet of the even greater sensei of military strategy on TV?

    Regarding your specific doubts, your namesake, Professor R. C. Majumdar, like you, rightist as they come, wrote extensively about the Indian expansion into South East Asia.

    Unlike you, he had done a considerable amount of reading in the subject, somewhat more than your current guru, and therefore was aware that the vast bulk of this expansion was cultural and mercantile, not military. Except for the Cholas, in spite of the wishful thinking of many, nobody else had the logistics capability or the organisation to support overseas adventures.

    This is not surprising because most Indian states of the past had neither desire nor inclination to conquer overseas realms. Considering your self-avowed rightist inclination, it seems strange that you have moved away from a classic rightist plank, that India uniformly demonstrated that Indian states were not invasive – outside India, that is.

    That must be the learned Master Ansari’s contribution to your mental upliftment. We shall await further gems of purest ray serene, either from this new toy or from some other as yet undiscovered scholar of undetected brilliance.

    One is forcibly reminded of rather similar sayings in two different languages:

    “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
    Drink deep or drink not of the Peirian spring.”

    Also,

    অল্প বিদ্যা ভয়ংকরী
    😀

  44. Hayyer

    Vajra:
    Thanks for the reminder that it was the despised Purbiyas who comprised the bulk of the Company’s Bengal Army.
    The martial races theory is pretty well exploded by now, even in Pakistan I think. It is evident now that the pussies all live in countries that comprise NATO. Just imagine! The vaunted Germanic tribes have not the stomach to fight Pakhtuns!

  45. Gorki

    “Today China wants to intimidate India, and we, while apprehensive would rather fight than bend and bow. Despite Chinese growling I don’t think real conflict is likely”

    IMHO The border argument is nothing but diplomatic Kabuki. China is making some angry noises to keep the Tibetan issue in check.

    If anything, the fall of the Soviet Union taught the world that the idea of holding ’empires’ based on military might were gone forever. The moral of the story is that it is the ‘economy stupid’ in more ways than one.
    China, which is closely watched by the US with some trepidation, seems to have learnt that lesson well. It has firmly set its course on a ‘peaceful rise’ at least in the near term future.
    It wants to continue its rapid economic growth and the modernization of the PLA without causing undue alarm. For this it needs to avoid any distractions and more importantly wants to avoid an arms race with the US at this juncture .

    Right now all it wants is to quietly lock up large parts of the world resources especially in Africa and South America into its sphere by using soft power; diplomacy, economic aid and corporate contracts.

    India too seems to have read the tea leaves right for once. All the silly talk of Indian ’empire’ or the Ashokan grandeur (what grandeur anyway?) notwithstanding, it too understands that its standing in the world (complete with frills like the seat at the security council) can only come out of its economic strength and economic strength alone.
    All the talk of it building up military might is hogwash since an aggressive India will not go unnoticed by others, the Indonesians, Australians, the Iranians to name a few non-US non-Chinese parties. It does not need to do any such thing anyway but is now certainly trying to play catch up with the Chinese in the projection of soft power out of compulsion and economic competition for resources and perhaps later day markets.

    The recent Singh-Hu meeting conveyed all the right signals and the body language in this regard. President Hu even verbalized it by saying words to the effect that he like what ‘his old friend Singh’ had to say that is ‘the world was big enough for both India and China to grow up together in’.

    Moreover, the border issue is peripheral for both India and China and is not central in their scheme of things. Chinese diplomacy and foreign policy is more focused on Tiawan and Japan and India’s on Kashmir and Pakistan respectively.

    One last thing; Moin Ansari types may go on fantasizing about China attacking India to help the militarists in Pakistan, but China with its own Muslims in its backyard will never support any Jihadist fantasies purely out of its own fears and compulsions.

    Regards.

  46. Bloody Civilian

    hayyer

    some more food for thought then…

    zhou enlai might not have made the offer had there been no ladakh to offset it against. only if pakistan were a democracy, and then depending on the state of indo-pak relations, pak might have made a unilateral offer/gift of territory to china.. like it has done now, subject to a final settlement between india and pak.

    without the labs in a’stan/FATA, the handful of misguided uighur youth would have been on their own, if they wished to remain misguided at all.

    the PLA might have spoiled hindi-chini bhai bhai, but it did india no great harm. not only did it gave india a rather friendly wake up call, now india has the nuclear deal as well as the bases in tajikistan. with the PLA being able to commit such self-harming adventurism, one is forced to consider china to be an experiment (to borrow from maulana azad), no matter how settled and under control it might seem now (thanks to an individual or two, not any system; now there is the economic factor but that is not a real substitute to a more durable system).

    P.S. Hossp, unlike Irfan Hussain, did say ‘Indian’, not ‘Hindu’.

  47. rex minor

    It is fascinating to watch this debate. I do not notice any difference in substance between the Indians and the Pakistanis. The religion has unfortunately made the two nations out of one people!!
    Incidently, the superiority of one soldier over another can only be determined on the basis of ones training and the familiarity with the equipment they carry. Equally it is right to say that a soldier of today’s modern army after training no longer conforms fully to the bahaviour of a human specie. And after soldiering is of very limited use to the Nation. It is also a myth to classify Sikhs or other ethnic groups as good fighters, a trick used by the colonialist to encourage and make use of simple minded Indians to fight others who were not even their enemies. Mr Manmohan Singh and many others like him have made their namés in Sciences. We are well advised to watch the coming Super Powers in the world not with their professional armies such as the Americans and the British, but those who have symbolic national armies but a reservoir of the youth with vast and still unexploited technical and scientific finesse. By the way, the German army is made up of conscripts who do 18 months army service starting at the age of eighteen. Unlike the Americans, the Brits and the Canadians the Germans went into Afghanistan as part of the ISAF to support the construction projects and not to engage Pashtoons in fighting. They have no stomach to enter at night into the houses of civilians for search and to frighten the old, women and children. Almost three fourth of the German public are against their army fighting in the Hindukush! The Alcapone 2 and his rag tag marines should be watched on the cable network France 24, how a single Pushtoon sniper(unseen on camera) is giving a colypso dance lessons to a platoon of marines for several hours before the arrival of a helicopter. The marine platoon commander accepts that the Talabans (one sniper) had the upper hand!!

  48. vajra

    @rex minor

    Fascinating, too, to watch your reactions😀

    Just curiousity: what do you see different between yourself and the Indians and Pakistanis on this forum, other than the ‘fact’ that Pathans are taking over South Asia is a secret for everybody but you?

    There’s a reasonably large volume you have written on this forum; it is largely that Afghanistan cannot be conquered, the people of Afghanistan are freedom-loving people who will fight for their freedom even against the greatest powers of their times, the Pathan people, even among the Afghans, are the finest of the world, one Pathan sniper is equal to an American platoon……..yeah, right! Any sniper in a covered and unflankable position can pin down any unit, and the Pathan and American nationalities have very little to do with it.

    Just to correct your mistaken ethnic and irrational racism, here’s what a genuine military authority has to say about the matter:
    Incidently, the superiority of one soldier over another can only be determined on the basis of ones training and the familiarity with the equipment they carry.

    That is correct, and not the following:
    how a single Pushtoon sniper(unseen on camera) is giving a colypso dance lessons to a platoon of marines for several hours before the arrival of a helicopter. The marine platoon commander accepts that the Talabans (one sniper) had the upper hand!!

    What was the point that the second citation sought to establish?

  49. rex minor

    @Vagra, very simple sir,
    The Pushtoon sniper is not a professionaly trained soldier nor is a part of the regular army, but the famous marines are! The sniper was at a distance of more than a kilometer, and the brave marines were standing behind a wall taking a cover but trying to advance towards the village but could not because of the sniper. The marines were following the instructions they had learnt during their training and since the Pushtoons are not subject to conscription in the Afghan army , I take it that the Sniper was more or less using his own imagination rather than following some military rule! Do you now follow me? Now how many military people you have come across who use their own imagination in such situations? I have known some and none would go out of the marked strategic lines that they have learnt in the staff college. I shall give you another example, how is it possible that the Pakistan Army travels a long distance to their eastern sector, spreads over the whole of the terrain and then surrenders as soon as the Indian General with his troops drops in the Capital for a cup of tea. Do you see the difference, all professional armies which are not of national nature would follow the standard method of advance, conquer, withdraw or surrender. It is very strange for me to note that most do not accept that they suffered a defeat in east Pakistan and will state all sorts of reasoning. Do the British accept that they were defeated by Pushtoons or the Americans that they suffered a defeat in Vietnam. No sir, history will record it in some form or other come what may. The Pushtoons do not know these tactics. I do not claim that they are the finest in the world. They are no different than others, most simple and ordinary people, but they are no terrorists nor fundamantilist nor insurgents nor radical muslims. They are living in their homes, are hard working like those in most villages of the world and go about doing their own business causing no harm to any one. I am interested in these people to understand their secret of maintaining there culture of friendship and protection they provide for their guests. Why do’nt you travel to Peshawar and meet these wariors at lunch time in kebab restaurants and talk to them. They are very cool and are still able to travel back in the afternoon and confront the American marines in Afghanistan. It is a real pity to see the use of names for Pushtoons and all others, who have different philosaphies of life or opinions, similar to those which were used during the British rule from 1839 to 1947. I am looking at Arthur swinson’s book on North-West Frontier. Most Indians travel to anglosaxon countries in pursuit of knowledge, perhaps due to convenience with english language and therefore in my view are indoctrinated with out of date theories and knowledge. I must admit that I found several of your comments and that of Mr Milland kher and Mr Hayyer very lucid and promising and I had the feeling of seeing a ray of hope that the De Je Vous will sooner than later is going to end in Indian sub-continent.

  50. Gorki

    All readers, please note the following correction before I get slammed yet again by the double trouble tag team of Vajra-Hayyer: 😉

    recent Singh-Hu meeting = recent Singh-Jiabao meeting…
    (I know, I know, it was the recent Obama-Hu Jintao meeting and the recent Singh-Jiabao meeting; never any recent Singh-Hu meeting. Almighty God; the woes of dual citizenship😉 )

    Regards.

  51. Hayyer

    BC:
    In the world of imagine anything is possible. The stans came out of the break up of the Russian empire and militant Islam of recent times came out of what? The US, Israel, Iraq, Iran Saudi Arabia,- who knows what all. One can build up all sorts of theories, but where would time’s arrow have taken China and Pakistan? Pakistani Chini bhai bhai is subsequent to, exploitative of and contingent upon the breakup of the earlier brotherhood.
    Back in 1960 with a firm US-Pak alliance against China and Russia, and India non aligned the chances of war between the two countries would have been pretty low. Hindi Chini bhai bhai may have continued indefinitely as part of the Bandung spirit.
    Pakistan would not, in this scenario have conceded even the small bit of the Mir of Hunza’s former territory that it did in 1963 or thereabouts, let alone Ladakh.
    The main article was about Pakistan’s security and the Indian angle. Pakistan has risked far more for America than the present generation of thinkers care to talk about. Remember Khrushchev actually threatened to annihilate Pakistan in 1960 over the Gary Powers U2 flight. Pakistan had lent itself for use as a possible war zone with China and Russia, and risked annihilation, while India watched safely from its non aligned sideline. America’s interest in those days was to use Kashmir as a central base for intimidating China and Russia. Little chance of a Ladakh concession then. What risks Pakistan ran for the chimera of security against India. Both the threat and the security were chimerical.

    Suv:
    India was invited to contribute troops for Iraq, and Advani in a moment of weakness almost agreed but better sense prevailed.
    I don’t think India has received an invite to either send troops to Afghanistan or train soldiers. The Americans would be glad for a 100k or so Indians but Pakistan would never allow it.
    It is unlikely as I have said before that India will be so stupid as to get stuck all by itself in Afghanistan after the Americans and Nato leave.

  52. Majumdar

    Hayyer mian,

    India was invited to contribute troops for Iraq, and Advani in a moment of weakness almost agreed but better sense prevailed.

    It is alleged that the GOI deliberately leaked it out that it was planning to send troops to Iraq so that the resulting public outcry wud force the Govt to back down and use that as a justification to GoUS which it was otherwise desperately trying to woo.

    Regards

  53. vajra

    @rex minor

    Your restrained answer and polite language has forcefully reminded me that my response to you was less than civil.

    Please accept my apologies.

  54. Bloody Civilian

    Hayyer

    for the imaginary ladakh concession, democracy would have been a prerequisite. a military dictatorship would have little interest in a permanent peace.

    badaber, where gary powers flew from, was worse, in terms of stupidity, than hafizullah amin inviting the soviets into his country. amir abdur rehman had been much wiser, in contrast, over panjdeh. he had saved his country from annihilation.

    of course the corps commanders did not feel that badaber was any threat to pakistani sovereignty the way they unanimously think the Kerry-Lugar Bill is. taking orders from washington is fine as long as it is not for rawalpindi to take orders from islamabad.

  55. Majumdar

    Civvie mian,

    The opposite is also true. Had there been no Kashmir problem maybe there never wud have been a military rule in Pakistan in the first place. (Although, the peculiar geography and demography didn’t help either.)

    Regards

  56. Suv

    @Hayyer
    The rediff link I posted seems to suggest that a request to train soldiers was made but was turned down by India

  57. G.Vishvas

    Everyone says the afghans are a proud people who tolerate no external imperialism.

    I will believe this only after the afghans get rid of the islamic-arabic chauvinism, obscurantism and imperialism under which they are living (and suffering and remaining backward-tribal) since 1200 years. The same is true also of the supposedly proud iranians and pakistani panjabis.

    Muslim history-writing is keeping muslims, especially non-arab muslims, as minions, underdogs and serfs of arabs. Muslim history-writing serves the purpose of glorifying islam and arabs and their imperialism and denigrating and insulting non-arabs and non-muslims.

  58. rex minor

    @G Vishwas
    The pride of people is a motherhood, most of us are proud of something, the Pushtoons are proud of their friendliness towards guests and they even give them protection and asylum. The imperialism has caused sufferings and even permanent damage in many countries and some have not much left in their country except their own pride. They include South Americans, American Indians and ofcourse the Afghans. There are others who are struggling to regain their past glory such as Mexicans and Iranians. People of these countries do not need your endorsement. How can an imperfect make a judgement about a perfect or less perfect? It is also not correct to glorify or disparage religions on the basis of people who claim to practice them. My reading of the history is that the analogue leaders of the western alliance today are no different than the Colonialists of the past. We hear deceitful words from many including the current Prime Minister of the UK about the purpose of the British troops intrusion into the Pushtoon territory.During their adventure in the 19th century the UK Prime Minister was less than candid and was misleading the Parlimentarians. One thing is sure the dignity of the human being has survived against all brutal forces. Those who claim superiority over others have a complex and my advice to you is simply to please ignore them and forgive them if you can. wasmuslim armies invaded othersion into foreign land was ThroughI have Most people relate Islam, Christianity, Hinduism with muslims chri The dignity of a human being has remained unblemished regardless of the time shumanity has remained unblemished even after centuries of tyranny. survivesHumanity

  59. G.Vishvas

    There is nothing to be proud of nor is it necessary. Driving up emotions is a dangerous game. Islam and muslims are the big drivers of emotions and hence also its biggest sufferer-victims and consequently also a nuisance to all.

    Let us learn to have respect for others who are living today – than be proud of any past or any ancestors or their outdated religions.

  60. Luq

    >Driving up emotions is a dangerous game.
    >Islam and muslims are the big drivers of
    >emotions and hence also its biggest
    >sufferer-victims
    >and consequently also a nuisance to all.

    But perfectly allright when the right wing hindu groups / sangh parivar does it.

    >Let us learn to have respect for others who
    >are living today – than be proud of any
    >past or any ancestors or their outdated religions.

    Applies only to rahim or ram as well?

    Luq

  61. Luq

    Huzoor apne girehbaan mein bhi jhaankiye to sahee.
    Is mazhab ke hamaam mein sab ke sab nagn hain.

    Luq

  62. rex minor

    Mr Vishvas,
    I will readily agree with you and ask you to keep always cool about Islam and muslims etc., though there are many others who wo’nt. But this would not solve the major issues facing the world namely poverty, inhuman aggression against the weak and illegitimate exploitation of the world natural resources.Now please do not tell us that we should hope for the arrival of Gandhi 2. We are living in difficult times, even Gandhi 1 arrived too late after two hundred years of colonisation and did not receive a Nobel Price, and people do not have a strong stomach to wait for another two hundred years. You tell the demonstrators in India, Italy and Denmark to suppress their emotions!

  63. Sameet

    @G Vishvas,

    What do you want to do?Remodel the Islamic world per your POV? We have to take the religion as it is and deal with it. Which means build a fence right across the western border of India and build/beef up our internal security apparatus.

    @Luq,
    “But perfectly allright when the right wing hindu groups / sangh parivar does it.”

    how does this retort help you get out of the rotten state of affairs that is Pakistan and Mullahiat? Last time I knew, it was killing a lot more of you than the RSS guys were killing Indians?

  64. Gorki

    “Last time I knew, it was killing a lot more of you than the RSS guys were killing Indians?”

    Sameet: And that is supposed to provide comfort for the Indians who happens to become a victim of the RSS??

    I doubt Ehsan Jaffery’s family would look at it that way.

    Regards.

  65. Sameet

    Gorki,

    I may have been insensitive in saying it that way and I apologize. I was trying to point out that Islamic fundamentalism poses a more immediate threat to Pakistan as a nation state than Hindu funda does India, and hence the normal reaction of a pakistani to point out corresponding “Hindu fundamentalists” in India is disingenuous. Further, India’s body politic has the capacity to eradicate/accomodate/dilute/mitigate these tendencies whereas Islamic funda is consuming the Pakistani body politic (irrespective of Islami parties getting less than 2% of votes or whatever while BJP was in power in India).

  66. G.Vishvas

    respected commenters

    When I criticize islam then it does not mean that I overlook the misdeeds of the fundo hindus or vhp etc. When islam is criticized then the muslims must take this criticism seriously and not try to point out to what some other guys are doing bad or wrong. It is not a forum for a polemic writing I suppose. Islam’s ill deeds do not bcome good or white-washed by pointing out to any misdeeds by others. In fact in view of the big claims which islam makes, we have to judge islam more stringently than other religions.

    Hindu funadamentalism is affecting India only – it has no international intentions. Islamic fundamentalism has become a world-wide aggressive problem of a far greater violence.

    When Luq writes: “But perfectly allright when the right wing hindu groups / sangh parivar does it.” This is a nonsense. I have never defended or condoned any hindu violence anywhere. One should avoid being polemic.

    Fact is: islam is far more aggressive, expansionist, fascistic, totalitarian and arab-imperialist than hindus religions (note the plural). It is a matter of relative proportions and urgency.

    Islamic parties get less votes in Pakistan than hindu parties in India. This is because the mainstream parties (esp. PML(N)) in Pakistan are islamic, even islamo-fascistic to a very large extent and the Pak army is doing a lot to enforce islamic fascism across the board all over (even before Zia ul Hak took over).

  67. vajra

    @Sameet

    Frankly, I do not agree that


    … Islamic fundamentalism poses a more immediate threat to Pakistan as a nation state than Hindu funda does India

    If you look carefully, Pakistan was more vulnerable to religious fundamentalism because of reasons connected to the ideology of the freedom struggle. This is not the place for a review of the entire proceedings of weeks of discussion, but suffice it to say that the Indian ‘national myth’, ‘myth’ used here in a positive sense, was more coherent and consistent, and also was promoted by a succession of democratically elected leaders with similarly aligned views. As a result, religion as an identifier was not greatly encouraged; on the contrary, it was discouraged officially, but was widely prevalent socially.

    At the risk of appearing to gloss over the real discrimination on account of religion and on account of caste and tribal origin, it needs to be observed that other criteria have become important. In the absence of other identifiers, language was used to re-constitute the states comprising the Indian Union. Over the last few years, language has visibly yielded place to economic development as an identifier. People want to be grouped into groupings which will allow them and their families greater opportunity to education, water, housing and shelter, food and employment opportunities.

    We have the hopeful situation of being in a post-religious, post-linguistic, post-ethnic state of development, but have not yet clearly resolved these earlier, primordial issues and tokens of identity. As we move forward, we have to manage these tokens, religion, language and ethnicity, while still managing the calculus of growth.

    So we are not as fortunately placed compared to Pakistan as it might appear. Rather, religious communities are working out their interfaces, with a great deal of unhelpful intervention by political parties.

    If citizens sensitive to these issues such as you maintain constant vigil on ensuring that these three identities are articulated and find full expression, and no longer hold us apart, we can move on; otherwise, we will go through what our neighbours are going through, with a lag of some years.

    PS: How did you deduce that Luq is a Pakistani? Isn’t that a dangerous conclusion based on superficial and misleading evidence? Aren’t you guilty of using stereotypes? Verbum sapienti, or verb. sap., if you prefer.

  68. rex minor

    Mr Vishvas,
    Nescio, since the english language has limitations and a shorter vocabulary, I would understasnd your thoughts more clearly If you were to write in French, German or even latin language. Islam is a religion of the creator, one God who was also merciful to the mankind by sending his commandments through numerous Prophets and they took the form of books namely, Tora, Bible and Quran. One of the commandment is that “though shall not kill”. Now look around in the world and tell us who is abiding with this straightforward rule. I consider every Govt. in the world regardless of their faith, a fascists if they violate human rights and are involved in killings. None of the three Ibrahim religions are fascists but the people of these faith could fall in this category. Now let us talk calmly and with sensitivity about the wrongs of the politicians and their parties including the Clergy if you will. Sorry, it is not a fact that Muslims(not Islam) are aggressive and expansionists etc. etc. My reading of the history is that the muslim armies did not travel long distances into Asia and Europe with imperial intentions or to expand their rule in foreign territories. There intrusion was aimed simply to destroy the inhuman practices of the societies and their respective rulers at that time. The students of History should never ignore the prevailing conditions of the respective societities at any time. I have a great respect for the Hindu religion , but their practice.( now I have to be very careful, of burning the second half of the man alive with the dead is very foreign to me). Similarly, the wrath of muslim armies against the Romans does not need any elaboration nor of the practice by the franco Spanish rulers violation of human dignity in their land. We are glad that ths task has now been allocated to the UNO. The muslim rulers stayed on in the Indian sub-content for reasons no other than that of experiencing the deep philosophical and spirtual stregnths of the Hindu religion. Hence India had more non- violent Sufi muslims than in any other part of the world including the middle east and inter marriages was a norm under the moghul rule. It is not surprising that there are more muslims living in India than that in Pakistan. Your assessment is right more people in the world are converting to Islam than any other religion, and this is not due to aggressiveness or Imperial muslim nations. Please look around and tell us your opinion about the aggressors in today’s world;
    .US and Nato Armies( Repeat of 19th century adventure by the colonialist in Pushtoon land- details are in Arthur Swinson ‘s North-West Frontier 1839-1947)
    .Indian Army (half a million suppressing their own citizens, similar to that what they did during the colonial times )
    .Pakistan Army(suppression of their own citizens at the behest of the US and similar to that what they did during colonial times)
    . Iranian Army ( testing their long range rockets for their nuclier weapons, which they probably possess, but both the media and the State department deny it.)
    .Israel Army(A sizeable force in the Middle East with Nuclier Weaponary, occupation and killings of old, women and children palastinians in Gaza) with the unrelented support of the US.
    . African Armies (súppression of their own citizens
    . Turkish Army( suppression of their own cuitizens but defending the Americans and the European citizens)
    Now with this scenario, somewhat similar to that in ancient times is it difficult to forecast that sooner or later the muslim armies are going to roll out of their bunkers and spread across the world destroying everything they find in their way. I have not the slightest doubt about this happening in the 21st century. The mighty Indians, the great Romans nor the Franco spaniards were able to stop their previous invasion. Both US and Nato are too weak and on their last journey.Die dulci fruimini.

  69. Hayyer

    rex minor:
    Do you see armies of the Pakistan and Turkey rolling out along with others too in that great destruction. They cannot be both suppressors of their own people and destroyers of other people. What is your position on Iran and Iraq?

  70. G.Vishvas

    The god-comcept of the three abrahamic religions is fascistic, expansionistic and imperialistic. So too are the followers of the ideologies emanating from them.

    Monotheism is a power-play for those who wish to set up totalitarian states and societies. Fascism follows because of the punishments threatened upon those who disobey or disagree. This fascism is not only on the earth but even after death!

    The basic requirement is to have an IDEOLOGY THAT EMPHASIZES SECULARISM, HONESTY AND NON-VIOLENCE. Islam does not and cannot bring forth such an ideology. About hindu religions (the plural is crucial) the chances seem to be better. But hindu religions are not finalized like islam in 7th century. They too are not free from problems. Islam is fossilized in its Mohammad-centered and kuran-centered fascism. That is the reason why even the sufis (and similar sects etc.) were not and are not able to divert the development away from fascism. The non-fascist elements in islam are very weak (no matter how many they are) and will always remain so.

  71. Sameet

    @Vajra,
    You have described a very complex ethno-sociological issue in a wonderfully lucid manner and I can only admire. I was attracted to this site precisely due to the perspicacity of selves like you and others; I can only get enriched by these.

    I do agree with what you say, and my contention was that the Indian society has the wherewithal, going by past history, to deal with the challenges that you so eloquently lay out. Why? Because as you have pointed out, Idea of India is a coherent narrative, it has stood the test of time, overwhelming majority of the people believe in it and it is giving them tangible economic benefits. And that Idea of India isn’t a Hindu India. That is the reason what was once a very emotive issue (Babri Masjid) has been relegated to the background. BJP ruled for a significant amount of time, had the courage to go nuclear against world opinion but didnt have the capacity to make a temple at that site. Why? Because the plurality of the society didnt allow it to. I am saying that plurality will always be there in Indian society. The Hindu fundas are a danger, the saffron loonies will seek violence, but it will never be systematic. The rabid right wing is there in every polity and that is how it should be, if only to moderate the excesses of the center and left.

    @Luq,
    Sorry, agree am guilty of labeling you as a Pakistani stereotype. My apologies. However, I still maintain, blaming Hindu fundas aint gonna solve what is a big, big, big headache for the Pakistani polity.

  72. Luq

    @Sameet
    Just read the following lines a few times.

    >G.Vishwas :
    > Driving up emotions is a dangerous game.
    > Islam and muslims are the big drivers of
    >emotions and hence also its biggest sufferer-
    >victims and consequently also a nuisance to all.

    Now replace the “Islam and muslims” with other religions and the sentence continues to make sense. So, everyone is guilty of the same thing.

    That was the point being made.

    Lemme help….
    Driving up emotions is a dangerous game.
    Right wing hindus of the sangh pariwar are the big drivers of emotions and hence also its biggest sufferer-victims and consequently also a nuisance to all.

    Instantly helps form the picture of India?

    Luq

  73. Sameet

    @Luq,

    Driving up emotions is a dangerous game (Agreed);
    Right wing hindus of the sangh pariwar are the big drivers of emotions ( Partially Agree-Jihadis are bigger drivers of emotions);
    hence also its biggest sufferer-victims(Do not agree-jihadis make us suffer more than right wing hindus)
    consequently also a nuisance to all(Again, agreed).

  74. Luq

    >hence also its biggest sufferer-victims
    >(Do not agree-jihadis make us suffer more than
    >right wing hindus)

    If you carefully miss the point, here it is again…

    >Gorki December 17, 2009 at 4:54 am
    >>“Last time I knew, it was killing a lot more of
    >>you than the RSS guys were killing Indians?”
    >Sameet: And that is supposed to provide comfort
    > for the Indians who happens to become a victim
    >of the RSS??

    >(Do not agree-jihadis make us suffer more than
    >right wing hindus)

    The islamists are running free in lawless lands.

    The hindutvavadis are doing this systematically, inside a democratic setup, within the rule of law and spreading cancer in an otherwise peaceful society.

    The sanghis are classically fascists and pose a danger far greater than all the taliban put togather.
    Playing with one billion plus is a phenomenal scale.

    Luq

  75. Sameet

    @Luq,

    Islamists are running a nuclear armed nation of 180 million. That is what is phenomenal about it. Islamists are being sent to my cities to kill wantonly. Islamists are using other islamists to provide strategic space so they can have the comfort to use their nuclear cover to send more Islamists to my cities to kill more wantonly. The world aint worried about the hindutvavadis, they cant do much other than calisthenics with their khaki pants, the world is worried about beards taking 40 others with his suicide vests to screw 72 virgins in heaven.

  76. Sameet

    @Luq,

    “The sanghis are classically fascists and pose a danger far greater than all the taliban put togather”

    pray, please tell how, am very interested to know!

  77. Gorki

    “BJP ruled for a significant amount of time, had the courage to go nuclear against world opinion but didnt have the capacity to make a temple at that site. Why? Because the plurality of the society didnt allow it to.”

    @Sumeet: I like the above concept.
    Thanks.
    Perhaps will use it myself; with due credit of course😉
    It resonates with my faith that the idea of Indian plurality (Nehruvian?) is far bigger (and established) than anything that the fundamentalist can come up with.

    @Rex: Isn’t English language the one with the most words? Agree with your patient reasoning style even though your arguments take liberty with historical facts.😉

    Regards.

  78. Bloody Civilian

    ) than anything that the fundamentalist can come up with.

    like destroying a mosque, but not being able to build anything more than an informal temple.

  79. Sameet

    Gorki,

    Thanks. I agree with you that the plurality is long established in the Indian psyche.

    One of the funny things about Pakistanis that I have observed that they will bristle with indignation if anybody says Indians and Pakistanis are the same people, but yet when pointed out the flaws of their polity, they will immediately point out flaws in India (meaning if something ails them, so what, it ails India too). But they forget that since we are NOT like them, what kills them WONT necessarily kill us.

  80. Gorki

    BC:
    You have a point.
    The battle is not yet over; it is like two steps forward and one step back.
    However, I think for our geneartion, the Ayodhya rath Yatra was the Hindutva’s high point (or India’s low point) since then, secularism has slowly inched forwards at each step.
    But thanks for the warning that there will be bumps ahead. We will keep our seats belts on for the time being.😉
    Regards.

  81. vajra

    @Sameet

    It is true, I am the bee’s knees.

    I take it that you have read Shakespeare, specifically, Julius Caesar?

    When I tell him he hates flatterers, He says he does, being then most flattered

    But more anon: why are we debating Indian topics on PTH?

  82. vajra

    @Sameet

    To return to a Pakistani theme, the Idea of Pakistan, as it is being evolved slowly by thoughtful Pakistanis, even though they seem to be in a microscopic minority today.

    You need to go to older posts and much older arguments to get the concept that emerged slowly: that the Idea of Pakistan was in fact precisely the Idea of India, but implemented for the benefit of a population carefully selected to be a Muslim majority.

    It isn’t what you think: if you get this startling fact on board, whole swathes of polemic fall by the wayside.

  83. Sameet

    @Vajra,

    ” the Idea of Pakistan was in fact precisely the Idea of India, but implemented for the benefit of a population carefully selected to be a Muslim majority.”

    Isn’t that what Jinnah’s oft quoted speech boils down to? I, and a majority of Indians, would love to live alongside a Pakistan such as that. Oh dear, what a pleasant day that one would be! But wait, Pakistan ka matlab kya, la illah illallah! Oh so back to square one …raise the border fence again please!!

  84. rex minor

    @G. Vishwas, Sorry but your position is hopeless. You have sorrounded yourself with Fascism and the like words and do not even try to jump out of this belief.When I read the word Fascism, it reminds me of the 30 odd millions dead during the world war 2.
    @ Hayyer
    One cannot have large nuclear armed military suppressing their own citizens for long. This is precisely the signs that supports my prognosis of their involvement in the next world war 3. If you have a moment, please have a look at the map showing the so called military campaigns of the Islamic countries under http://www.csa.com/discovery guides/medieval/images/islam.jpgby
    Both Iran and Iraq would by then be fully nuclear armed and nothing would prevent their participation in the campaign. It is also not an illusion to imagine the Indian military force supporting this campaign. The muslim armies in ancient times always included non-muslim professional soldiers and were even in the forefront of the Austrian and Hungarian campaigns. The impotence of the clergy and the steady fall of morals in the society such as marriages among the same gender as well as disrespect for religious values and ever increase of greed for material values coupled with the absence of a dialogue among people would trigger off a military confrontation. There are some very important personalaties who are forecasting a clash of the civilisations in 21st century, but I do not envisage anything civil in this campaign.

  85. vajra

    @Sameet

    This is why several of us old habitues been urging on the PTH management that they should make available some of the old debates to new entrants. Maybe in PDF format; anything that allows search and enquiry.

    The slogan that you have quoted has a Jinnah story attached to it. It was proposed by a gentleman at a Muslim League conference.”Sit down, sit down,” shouted Jinnah.”Neither I nor any other member of the Muslim League committee has suggested this slogan. You may have used it to catch a few votes.”

    Bad example.

  86. Gorki

    “But wait, Pakistan ka matlab kya, la illah illallah! Oh so back to square one …raise the border fence again please”

    Dear Sameet:
    Sigh! I wish the world was that simple.
    As a fellow Indian who has interacted with (and learnt a thing or two) from many Pakistanis over the last several months, I can assure you that things are a little more complicated than that.

    About a year ago I came to the PTH looking for the Kasab wannabes and was humbled to find men more open minded, more thoughtful, better informed (and better debaters😉 ) than I.
    You sound like a fairly well educated, open minded and perhaps a liberal person in your outlook. If so, it may come as a pleasant surprise to you that there are many similar individuals on the other side of the fence that you want to erect.

    Then how can one explain the above slogans and the murders who sent Kasab, you may wonder.
    If so and you really want to know in earnest, my advice is; hang around a bit. You may be surprised.

    Hint: If you have a wife beater and an alcoholic living next door to you, don’t assume that his kids don’t hate it as much as you; only they too may be helpless to stop it.
    They too may even be looking for ways to stop it. 🙂

    Regards.

    Regards.

  87. Sameet

    Gorki,

    I know there are wonderful people on the other side of the fence, I for once havent doubted that. Pakistan isnt a monolith. The slogan, Pakistan ka matlab kya, was quoted to signify what many numerous Pakistani believe the meaning of their country to be. Again, I do not have a problem with that, its their country, they may do what they like with it. If I have a wife beater as my neighbor, I really am not bothered. But I dont want him to barge into my house and beat my wife! Pakistan is doing just that. Strong fences a better neighbor make. Otherwise I am all for exchanging cookies with each other ( or halwa, though I personally would prefer Mutton Biryani :))

  88. Luq

    @Sameet
    There is only a small difference in our POV where you are looking only at Pakistan, and me looking *only* at the dangers posed to India from within.
    The fascists in India are more dangerous IMHO as they seek to mine the system from within.

    The other point was that bigots are common to all religious groups.

    You have a sane head on your shoulders.

    mail me
    luqmaan.blr@gmail.com

  89. Luq

    @Sameet
    There is only a small difference in our POV where you are looking only at Pakistan, and me looking *only* at the dangers posed to India from within.
    The fascists in India are more dangerous IMHO as they seek to mine the system from within.

    The other point was that bigots are common to all religious groups.

    You have a sane head on your shoulders.

    mail me
    luqmaan.blr at gmail.com

  90. rex minor

    It is petty, disgraceful and even blasphemic to associate the name of a country with a Quranic verse! Those who did this should be held accountable for the misery and sufferings the country is now facing. More is going to follow. The zionist people are now the guest visitors in the capital of the country!

    @Gorki,
    I am sure all of you on this panel are educated, but knowledge needs more than education. A germanic language English cannot have a wider vocabulary than that of the German language. Though words are being continually added to the English language in original from other languages.
    Or may be I am misreading it? In any case I can use several german words to express myself than in english.

  91. G.Vishvas

    Luq writes
    “The fascists in India are more dangerous IMHO as they seek to mine the system from within.”

    In India we have both muslim and hindu fascists – the former are older, more trained, more religiously supported, more ready to die-or-kill. Hindu fascism in India is a recent reaction to the world-wide successes of muslim fascism since 1400 years.

    In Pakistan however there are only sunni-fascists and they are right in the armed forces, police and courts of law, right at the top there – the only “functioning” institutions – since >60 years.

    The arabic language lacks anti-fascist vocabulary due to its association with and slavery under islam.

    Do not forget that Jinnah was a thorough opportunist – he said contradictory things and hence the islamo-fascists in Pakistan too can quote him for their own benefit. If he was really for democracy, secularism, full human rights for non-muslims and federal de-centralization then islam was the worst instrument for this idea. It is like crying “house on fire” and then throwing petrol instead of water on it. Neither Mohammad nor Mohammad Ali Jinnah will save Pakistan. Both are too contradictory and passe.

  92. Milind Kher

    Quoting Pakistan as signifying La ilah il Allah is actually very secular.

    Only the nafy is being quoted here and not the ithbat (Muhammadan Rasul Allah), which would then have completed the Kalima and excluded non Muslims.

    La Ilah Il Allah is something all monotheists believe in, irrespective of the faith they profess.

  93. G.Vishvas

    @Milind

    Milind wrote: “Quoting Pakistan as signifying La ilah il Allah is actually very secular.”

    So you think polytheists and atheists etc. being excluded or persecuted in Pakistan is secular?

    Is there any proof that there is one and only one god or that this wished-for mono-god is the arabic-kuranic allah?

    ,La ilah il allah, is a statement of a faith or belief – since it is neither proved (provable) nor disproved (disprovable). It certainly leads to an exclusion of atheists, polytheists and also of those who do not believe in or obey or worship this 7th century arabic-kuranic god-concept.

    Is Milind Kher the pseudonym of a muslim trying to fool us into thinking here is a hindu who has found great love for and truth in islam and will fight to protect/defend islam even more than what the muslims would do? Is some muslim trying to do a hindu-fake on us?

    How did and will islam treat atheists, polytheists, ex-muslims and those who reject the arabic-kuranic god-concept as unworthy of being called a god?

    This allah (supposedly) split the moon in order to convince some simple-minded persons to become muslims (=mental slaves of allah) but did nothing to pulverize/vaporize the bullets and bombs that killed indians at the hands of allah-glorifying pakistani muslims on the 26.11.2008 in Mumbai. So how can we call this allah an obedience-worthy-and-worship-deserving god? Why did this allah fail to split the boats that brought these 10 muslim pakistani killers to Mumbai?

  94. Hayyer

    “Idea of India is a coherent narrative, it has stood the test of time, overwhelming majority of the people believe in it and it is giving them tangible economic benefits. And that Idea of India isn’t a Hindu India.”
    I suggest that needs some exegesis. If not Hindu, not Muslim then what? Not that fudge of eternal India surely?

    “That is the reason what was once a very emotive issue (Babri Masjid) has been relegated to the background. BJP ruled for a significant amount of time, had the courage to go nuclear against world opinion but didnt have the capacity to make a temple at that site. Why? Because the plurality of the society didnt allow it to. I am saying that plurality will always be there in Indian society.”

    What military advantage did that courage bring to India? And what was achieved by breaking down the mosque, even if it was the site of a former temple?
    May I quote to you the views of a very perceptive Hindu?
    ‘…..for India to continue in the military path in the atomic age was senseless folly; for us not even a rational preoccupation with conventional war was permissible. All of it was pointless……..(for my countrymen and fellow Hindus) ignorance of military matters remained as complete as ever but their bellicosity grew. A modern Hindu is nothing if he is not ready to sacrifice all substantial interests to satisfy his passions, which are never strong enough to conquer anything but always too strong for reason and self restraint…..When I was young I read that to men in general the satisfaction of a pride was infinitely more alluring than the satisfaction of an interest. I do not think that any group of human beings has proved the truth of that observation more decisively than modern day Hindus.’

    “The Hindu fundas are a danger, the saffron loonies will seek violence, but it will never be systematic. The rabid right wing is there in every polity and that is how it should be, if only to moderate the excesses of the center and left.”
    Pray what exactly are the excesses of the centre, any centre? If the centre exceeds then by your definition the Hindu right is the centre is it not?

  95. Hayyer

    G. Vishwas
    In addition to the above questions addressed to you may I suggest that to buttress your view that the centre exceeds you also enlighten us with some examples of the moderation of the Hindu right?

  96. Sameet

    @Hayyer,

    “If not Hindu, not Muslim then what? Not that fudge of eternal India surely?”– Yes it is, and that fudge is tasty. What do you suggest–make it Hindu India, and thus expel/murder/subjugate 200 million muslims, or should we make it Muslim India, so JeM can furl its green flag on the red fort?

    “What military advantage did that courage bring to India? And what was achieved by breaking down the mosque, even if it was the site of a former temple?”—-Am not a military man, but it is common knowledge that going overtly nuclear has been net positive to India. Bringing down the mosque was unfortunate and I do not defend it.

    “Pray what exactly are the excesses of the centre, any centre? If the centre exceeds then by your definition the Hindu right is the centre is it not?”—You got me there. You are right, I concur. Wrong choice of words. I meant to say, extremes are needed so policy is moderated around the center. Otherwise there is a danger of getting carried away to la la land, be it Ram Rajya, worker’s paradise or the wonderful, wonderful world of the Khalifa.

  97. G.Vishvas

    Hayyer is asking me a question that he should be directing at sameer. I wonder why this confusion.

    My own posting has been ignored.

    I had asked:

    Quote : “This allah (supposedly) split the moon in order to convince some simple-minded persons to become muslims (=mental slaves of allah) but did nothing to pulverize/vaporize the bullets and bombs that killed indians at the hands of allah-glorifying pakistani muslims on the 26.11.2008 in Mumbai. So how can we call this allah an obedience-worthy-and-worship-deserving god? Why did this allah fail to split the boats that brought these 10 muslim pakistani killers to Mumbai?”

    Anyone of you (esp. Milind) can answer this?

    Zoroastrianism postulates two gods. Ahura Mazda (the good spirit) and Angra Mainyu (the destructive spirit). I have to classify this arabic-kuranic-islamic-pakistani (akip) god(-concept) as a destructive god(-concept) in view of what happened in Mumbai on the 26.11.2008 (just to give one example among many).

    As far as the hindu right is concerned – I do not sympathize with them or support them, hence I have no reason to talk in their favor. The only thing that I may say in their “favor” is that hindu religions (note the plural) being polytheistic and non-finalized are by nature non-totalitarian whereas islam (being monotheistic and finalized) is by nature totalitarian, hence hindu fascism is unnatural (rather an imitation of islam and its fascistic successes) whereas islamic fascism is the unavoidable result of islam itself, it is inherent to islam.

    Mohammad Iqbal clearly stated (quite angrily) that sufism is incompatible with the kuran. He later retracted his views for reasons of political expediency, but could not and did not refute them. No wonder so much islamic fascism is coming forth from areas/societies made susceptible to islamic temptations by the sufis who always failed to realize the fascism-potential of islam.

  98. Hayyer

    Sameet and Vishvas:
    Sorry for the mix up. It was late and I had just returned from a long journey.
    Sameet:
    What is that eternal India? The fudge serves to prevent serious analysis. Eternal India is the hope of the future, it does not exist in the past.
    I am still waiting to hear how the nuclear explosions benefited India. So far as I can see they benefited Pakistan; they enable it to play a game of dare with India. Does India expect to get into a nuclear standoff with China?. What is India going to do if China makes another sally into Indian territory? Nuke China? The net positive eludes my understanding.

    G Vishvas:
    I can’t oblige you with a theological discussion. There may be others here who have the interest.

  99. Gorki

    G.Vishvas

    My dear fellow; frankly this discussion is getting a little irritating.
    Others have pointed out; with a great deal of patience I must add, that religion; all religion can and has been used and abused by mankind to rationalize its selfish and horrible urges.
    What you keep repeating is not rocket science, nor is it anything new yet you keep on writing, shriller and more vehemently each time thinking that perhaps people didn’t get it the first time.
    Look around you on the PTH.
    Read post after post by people like YLH, BC, AZW, Luqmaan, Hossp, Kher, Vajra, Hayyer and others. Read also the venom showered on them by bigots like Ummi and others who show up from time to time.
    The Wahabi-Salafist ideology that you seem to equate with all Islam is roundly criticized on this forum by these men, most of whom are Muslims themselves.
    These are serious people, they are trying to rescue their country. Their country is at war and they are coming out of a long nightmare during which their founder’s vision was distorted beyond recognition by one dictator after another. Yet they refuse to give in; they write and fight day in and day out; living in plain view in Pakistan today, writing articles under their own names. They live and work in places that are well known; they have been warned that they may be putting their families at risk in a land that is attacked daily battles with suicide bombers. They go on because they have a strong sense of duty and the courage of their convictions. And guess what do they believe in!
    Surprise, Surprise; In spite of their ‘fascist religion’ they fight for things like secularism, human rights, social justice. The rule of law!!
    However in your own self absorbed way you refuse to see this. You seem to love the sound of your own words and are so smitten with your own eloquence that none of this evidence around you seems to get in your way.
    To you, Islam and only Islam is the enemy; all other religions are epitomes of virtue.
    Yet what you write is a recycled hash of old rubbish. Any half educated idiot can take things out context of any religious scripture and depict it as absurd.
    Do you honestly believe that educated liberal yet deeply religious Muslims like Dr. Abdus Salaam did not understand that the concept of fountains of paradise and pleasures such as the 72 virgins etc. was only a metaphor?
    In an earlier post you equated Christianity with peace and ‘turn the other cheek’ universal understanding. That same religion follows the Bible that also confidently commands its followers that ‘Thou shall not suffer a Witch to live’. There was a time when this was the direct reason for the gruesome burnings of millions of innocent women over the years. It was because then its Christian zealots were as ignorant as Bin Laden is in our time.
    Islam and only Islam is fascist you think. I think you should read more, someday.
    When you have read some more, ask your self where did the Inquisition and the Crusades spring from? Why did The thirty years war wiped out one third of Germany’s population when there was no Islam was in sight. Also ponder why Joan of Arc was burned at a Cross in the name of the religion of peace. Why the Spaniard priests and missionaries reduced entire native Indian nations to slavery and vanquished the majority of them in their zeal to ‘serve the Lord’ or how come even in the early 19th century people in the Southern United States were quoting the Bible to justify slavery? You may be surprised what you will learn.
    In your view, Hinduism comes in only a Vanilla flavor since it has no formalized text s or rules. Think again and think hard. If you still draw a blank then ask a certain well versed gentleman who likes to call himself Vajra and I am sure he can enlighten you on a thing or two.
    May be he could even enlighten you on the exact punishment prescribed by the ancient Hindu texts for a ‘Sudra’ who murders a Brahmin or who hurts a cow.
    May be once you have learnt the exact methods of detoxifying a Brahmin upon whom a Chamaar happens to cast his unfortunate shadow you could lead a workshop for the a Neo Nazi skinhead group looking to upgrade their skills.
    You use the word fascist again and again but you are so enamored with your own views of Hinduism that you miss the irony that is hitting you in the face. For all their racial theories and their practice of apartheid the fascist of Nazi Germany were but amateurs in front of the Hindu priest class that truly ran their version of the Reich a thousand years!

    I give you these examples not to condemn the faith of any god fearing Hindu or a Christian but only to make a point that prescribed social-religious practices and religious texts are ancient relics. They are sacred metaphors for many but are historical documents; a legacy of all mankind. For long periods of human history these texts were used and much abused to met out all kinds of misery on fellow human beings.
    Yet they are also philosophical documents, inspiring thoughts, read as metaphors for human conditions and still used as sources of strength by many millions around the world. Any failing you see is that of its followers, and all have failed at one time or another; no one faith is immune.
    If you were to attack those who take a literal interpretation of these texts to suit their own goals, I would understand, but by insisting on attacking the literal version of another person’s religious text you come out no different than the ignorant Mullah whom you are trying to vilify.
    Both of you are piteously ignorant.

    Regards.

  100. Sameet

    @Hayyer,

    You sure are a demolition man. You deconstruct whatever others say but do not seem to propound a theory of your own. So pray tell me, what is your view of where India is headed? If eternal India is the hope of the future, surely it is a future to aspire to?

    Re: India’s nuclearization, am not a military man, and we armchair experts would be wasting our time discussing the pros and cons of it. Visit worldaffairsboard.com, let’s just say you will get a good education over there.

  101. Gorki

    Dear Hayyer Sahib:

    “What is that eternal India? The fudge serves to prevent serious analysis. Eternal India is the hope of the future, it does not exist in the past”

    Perhaps.
    But then again, all nationalism carries with it a similar fudge factor.
    De Gaulle once said “There is one reality; that there is always France” never mind that that reality started out almost accidently as an inheritance of a medieval Frankish chieftain a few centuries ago.
    An English poet wrote eloquently in a fit of nationalistic fervor:
    “If I should die think only this of me; that there is a corner of a foreign land that is forever England.”

    The second is a statement makes even less sense than the first. We all know that an Englishman’s grave notwithstanding, a Greek Island is still a Greek Island.
    Yet it is universally accepted that England and France are as eternal as nations get. However this fudge factor allowed the residents of these countries to forge a cohesive identity that came in handy while building a consensus for equitable, rule based and democratic societies on one hand and when facing challenges from oppressive ideologies such as Fascism and Communism on the other.
    I believe it is for this purpose many secular Indian use such evocative imagery of Indian nationalism. Indeed it is more a hope of the future but a hope of a better India than today and yet one that is inspired by everything that is worth claiming as a legacy from the past.

    I do agree with you that nuclear weapons being the great equalizers, the nuclear tests made India less powerful compared to Pakistan. By the same token it made India slightly stronger compared to China.
    Incidentally Charles De Gaulle also said “No country can be truly independent unless it has the atom bomb.” I think, in hindsight, Saddam Hussein would have agreed.😉
    Regards

  102. Hayyer

    Sameet:
    I have no idea where India is headed. It would take a brave man or an optimist to make such an forecast. I am all for economic growth but it does not cover the moral rot. Do I have to have a theory? Isn’t scepticism not theory enough.
    Gorki:
    France evolved from those few chieftains to what it is today in well over a 1000 years, but eternal India is claimed to exist for much longer than that is it not?
    As a new nation we should certainly look forward to the future, but then we are only a little older than Pakistan-by a 100 years or so!
    As for Rupert Brooke being forever part of England I think I can understand why the British have the War Graves Commission and why they tend to their graves abroad with such loving scruplousness. You must be aware their graves figured in the talks leading to independence.
    But Wilfred Owen is by far the better sentiment. Romanticizing graves is better done by the War Graves Commission.

  103. G.Vishvas

    To Gorki et al

    Thanks for the long riposte. But therein you accuse me of things which I did not commit. So I don’t have to answer them. Somehow you think that I am trying to sell some hinduism of 2000 years ago. But actually I have kept my attention on things happening in the Indian Subcontinent (ISC) in the past few years (last 2 to 40 years). Did you read anything else in my postings?
    I had sent 9 objective criteria of fascism and written very correctly and in block letters that they are to be applied to ALL religions and ideologies. Then I had written that islam is PRESENTLY the most fascist and aggressive ideology that we have to deal with (in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, USA, Europe, Arab lands, Iran, Turkey, Malaysia etc. etc.). Why don’t you read carefully? My contention is that islam is and will continue to be fascistic for the following reasons (which I think I must repeat here). If any ideology or religion regards/enforces anything (e.g. a book) or anyone as uncriticizable then this ideology or religion becomes a fascism centered around this something or someone. This is an objective statement and must be applied to ALL religions and ideologies. Thus islam is or has irreversibly become a fascism centered around kuran and Mohammad. When I write in a Pakistani forum then it is only natural that I will be primarily pointing out the defects, deficiencies and evils in islam since islam is the official ideology of Pakistan and 97% of the population and all the leaders are muslims. What sense does it make to write about the defects and evils in hindu religions in a pakistani forum? In Pakistan hindus and hindu religions have no role to play. They have been de facto exterminated since 62 years. What is the point in examining in a man the illnesses of the ovaries or the uterus? Do you comprehend this?
    PTH is a pakistani forum and Pakistan is in bad state because of islam and islam only. Since muslims are taught never to criticize islam hence they compulsively accuse outside non-muslims of having caused all the troubles in Pakistan (and in all other muslim lands). This is a compulsive neurosis generated by Islamic self-glorification that tolerates no critical honest look at islam’s real effects.

    Jinnah was a SMOT (=Scoundrel, Megalomaniac, Opportunist, Turncoat). No amount of glorification of Jinnah (even by a Stanley Wolpert) will change this fact. Dalrymple would agree to this evaluation. (“your” Wolpert against “my” Dalrymple!!!)

    You remember the Stalin time joke. An American and a Russian meet and the ami says US are the free-est land on the earth, I can stand in front of the White House and say the president of the USA is the biggest rascal on the earth. The Russian quips back – we have that SAME freedom in SU too. I too can stand in front of the Kremlin and say the president of the USA is the biggest rascal on the earth.
    That is to say – freedom of expression makes sense only if you can safely criticize the ruling ideology and rulers. What point (or courage) is it criticizing hindu religions in the PTH or Islamabad or Lahore? Islam is already 1400 years old and has had huge resources at its disposal. It is time to concentrate on the arrogance and deceits and self-deceits of islam and its agents and quislings. Pakistan is a land of, by and for the quislings of islam, Pakistan is a land of, by and for muslim smots. That is proved over 62 years. Whatever defects and evils in hindu religions be – they are of no relevance to Pakistan. But since 16% population of India consists of quislings and mental slaves of islam and these 16% are much appeased by the ruling pseudo-secular nominally-hindu ruling elites hence the evils and defects in islam are of much concern to India.

    This analysis should help bring the discussion away from polemics. If we can have one more forum with the name India Tea House (ITH) then therein we can let loose our criticisms of hindus and hindu religions to our hearts’ fill.

  104. rex minor

    Mr Gorki has well written! A very impressive summary. I would recommend the book “A History of God” by Karen Armstrong for Mr G vishvas to read. Unlike christians and Jews the muslims do not need a Pope or a Bishop to listen to their sins or act as a go between with the Creator. All human beings are supreme and were blessed with the brain(intelligence) to find answers. This is what the Prophet of Islam said to his followers in a sermon. I would also refer to the 16th century French theologist philosapher Descartes rule 2, that only those objects should engage our attention, to the sure and indubitable knowledge of which our mental powers seem to be adequate. I do not know much about Mr Bin Laden or other self proclaimed leaders and interpretters of the religion but would say to the enlightened ones that you do not need to follow or curse them, for you cannot blame people for having different views and still proclaim democracy and rule of law. Those who function outside the law could be easily dealt with the law enforcement outfits. This is the basic democracy. I do not need any lectures from Barrack Hussain who I believe is an imposter. No different than the previous Chiefs of the corrupt American system.

  105. G.Vishvas

    Respected PTH bloggers

    You say that my insight about islam is extremely elemental. Do you mean that as a compliment or criticism? It could be this or that. We are all misguided because of the mistakes made by god (whoever he or she or they is or are, or is or are supposed to be in each faith). The only well-guided ones are the cruise missiles with a striking accuracy of a few meters. If only this god could have been half as good at guiding people! Research has its limitations, especially in socio-political-religious matters where lies and lying have become the tone-setters. Or is there (somewhere) a system or country that rewards honesty? Do they give visas to everyone or only to the select few?

    If you want to know about hindu religions ask the enemies of the hindus and if you want to know about islam then ask the enemies of islam. That is my very scientific approach.

    Islam is one totalitarian system that allows no freedoms of choice. Once you are in it then you are a mental slave of this tribal arabic allah and of whomever who claims to know this allah’s will (supposedly to be found in an arabic book) and has the fire-power to execute it. It is like in a labor camp or concentration camp (with loud-speakers on towers and barbed wire and barracks and a paradise room etc.). Hinduism is like a supermarket where you can take what you want and buzz off (sometimes even without paying for the stuff!).
    In the coming years there will be a struggle between the fascist way of life and the non-fascist way of life. Islam will participate on the fascist side – and win and take over. Time is ripe for Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-four (the two novels written by George Orwell – they are a must-read). Unable to be reborn in such a 1984-type brave new world I will be entering nirvana – may be a bit reluctantly. Nirvana is supposed to be the most boring (and safe and harmless) thing that can happen to you – but may be better than life under a victorious Islamic fascism. Can this allah catch guys out of nirvana and accuse them of rebellion and throw them into his hell (just for fun)? See how misguided we ALL (including this allah) are?

    The next prophet will get rid of all remaining clarities. That will make all remaining humans extremely naïve, gullible, timid, childlike and obedient. That is the definition of paradise. If you show this analysis to a muslim mullah/alim then outwardly he will manifest pious anger but inside him he will be totally satisfied. The WAR religions (WAR = West Asiatic Revelation-based) and EAR religions (EAR = East Asiatic (Self-)Realization-based) differ so much in this.

    Is Karen Armstrong islam’s first female prophet? She is being recommended by all and sundry for all and sundry. Is she garanteed honest and trustworthy?

  106. vajra

    @rex minor

    And I thought, Sir, that you were an intelligent man! I am truly disappointed; can you not see that we are dealing with a disordered personality, who, having made up his mind, does not wish to be distracted by facts?

    – He has ignored all texts and primers on politics and defined fascism according to the dictates of his own ‘brain’, and now the world must fall in step, otherwise justice is not being done to his argument!

    – He is sure that a discussion on religion can be conducted on the same basis as a discussion on iruli-kalang, and you are urging him to read Karen Armstrong!

    – He apes every tenet of the RSS/BJP combine, and is obviously one of the roving pack of raving maniacs roaming the Internet seeking adventure and their daily titillation by saying incredibly insane things and watching everybody cope with it, and we are trying to reason with him, giving him precisely the results he wants.

    G. Vishvas : 3
    PTH : 0

    I say, good for him. The inmates are now managing the institution, wherever he is, and he must be one of the leading lights. Let us await his effusions and give thanks for the blessings that are showered on us.

  107. Bloody Civilian

    Hayyer sb

    I am still waiting to hear how the nuclear explosions benefited India. So far as I can see they benefited Pakistan

    who or what in pakistan?

    they enable it to play a game of dare with India

    and how is that a benefit?? not unlike you vis a vis the indian explosions, many of us in pakistan are waiting to be told how pak’s nuclear explosions benefit pakistan.

  108. Hayyer

    BC:
    The argument is thus. In a conventional war, India has more of everything, men guns planes etc. So it can be presumed to be stronger ( I am discounting the 1o:1 fighting skills in this argument). The argument further presumes that elements in the PA covertly arrange or back attacks such as that on 26/11 Mumbai or 2001 Parliament.
    Without the threat of mutual nuclear catastrophe India might retaliate as it threatened in 2001 after the attack on its Parliament when the army was mobilized. But now it is clear that India has no alternative but to make as best of the situation as it can.
    Nuclear capability therefore enables these elements in Pakistan to back these stormtroopers relatively risk free. It also enables Pakistani leaders to openly advise that unless Kashmir is solved the situation will remain perilous. I am paraphrasing here. The exact words used would have to read up in various statements over the years.
    India has lost the option of a conventional war. Pakistan need not fear a conventional war now. Pakistan follows against India NATO’s doctrine against the former Soviet Union. It hadn’t the conventional forces so its nuclear deterrent served to inhibit the Russians. And that is why Pakistan’s nuclear capability is so important to it. Your generals have said as much on occasion. When India offered a no first use agreement Pakistan declined.

  109. Bloody Civilian

    thanks hayyer, for expanding the argument, presumptions and all. but, as a pakistani, my question remains: how does it benefit pakistan?

    also, my presumption is that india is not and was never the primary concern of those who decided to have the nuclear explosions. they simply analysed the opportunity cost of having to be in a conventional fight, regardless of who wins or loses. imagine all the more useful things you could be doing with your time if you don’t have to be at the border, eyeball to eyeball.

  110. rex minor

    I once had the honour to have a couple sitting next to me in an Air France flight from Paris . At the sunrise the gentleman beside me covered himself with a blanket and I heard him whispering subdued words. After a while he removed the blanket from his torso and greeted me with good morning. He was of a Hindu faith and saying his morning prayers, he hastened to explain while the breakfast was being served to all of us. The couple were both university Professors and living in New York. They were on their way to India for vacation. This experience left a lasting impression on me to see someone with a Hindu faith saying his prayers first thing in the morning and I really felt myself blessed for being on this flight sitting next to him.

  111. Gorki

    I think BC makes an excellent point; and those in the PA who compare theirs to the NATO’s strategy have it all wrong.
    First the NATO. Theirs was a defensive strategy in military terms. The West scruplously avoided provoking the Russians militarily. Even when opportunities arose in 1956 or in 1968.
    Later on, once the West had set its own house in order and confident of its economic prowress, it went on a political offensive.
    One can call it a combined military-political defensive-offensive strategy.
    More the West could engage such a strategy since even in purely military terms, it relied heavily on the US second strike capabilites.
    Pakistani army got it wrong when it employed the nuclear umbrella in its doctrine for a limited offene. Nuclear weapons, especially a parity with a competing power are at the best a deterrent, thus only useful as a defensive weapon, with little use for offensive tactics.
    Even if one assumes a stalemate in military terms, in an all out war, PA’s assumption that India will never respond to pinprick with a little offensive action of its own cannot be taken for guaranteed and therein lies the risk of escalation into a nightmare scenario that everyone including the bystander West worries about.

    More importantly, this seemingly unrestrained reliance on the unconventional forces\Jihadist under a nuclear umbrella to inflict punishment on India is self defeating, when one sits back and adds up the cost.
    Sure the Jihadist can tie up the Indian army in Kashmir, but they have no control over whether India continues to mature politically and economically or not.
    OTOH, in order to indoctrinate, train and maintain a large pool of willing Jihadist martyrs from amongst its own population and on its own soil, the PA paradoxically ensures that the political and economic maturity will be stunted for its own countrymen.
    Thus the PA runs the risk that the enemy it so badly wants to destroy will continue to outstrip it both economic and politically and in the international arena. Thus the cost benefit ratio of this strategy of a thousand cuts or whatever too is heavily wieghted against Pakistan.
    It is for those reasons I believe that even in the military-political terms, the ‘bumb’ has been a curse for Pakistan.
    Regards.

  112. rex minor

    @Vajra,
    Sir, according to the 16th century French theologist Philosopher I am most probably blessed by the creator with a normal intelligence and I have never complained about those who have a higher IQ and have made names in several avenues of science. I am of the opinion that the respected PTH blogger G Vishvas does not genuinely mean what he says and has sorrounded himself by contradictions. He is not able to get out of the ring he himself has created. His views would not hurt others nor would they provide comfort for his soul.

  113. Gorki

    G Viswas:
    Oh Dear; you use such big words and seem to have read so many books…. and yet have learned so little.

    I don’t know where to begin. You wrote:
    “Somehow you think that I am trying to sell some hinduism of 2000 years ago. But actually I have kept my attention on things happening in the Indian Subcontinent (ISC) in the past few years (last 2 to 40 years). Did you read anything else in my postings?” (G.Vishvas December 19, 2009 at 3:11 pm)

    You then made a long argument elsewhere stating the following:
    “hindu fascism is unnatural….” (G.Vishvas December 19, 2009 at 6:26 am)

    But then you also said:
    “Hindu fascism in India is a recent reaction to the world-wide successes of muslim fascism since 1400 years.” (G.Vishvas December 18, 2009 at 7:28 pm)

    So then let us try to make some sense. You say let us not talk about the Hinduism of the past, let us stick with here and now.
    OK, that’s fine with me.
    Then you say fascism is unnatural to Hinduism. Here you lost me. Which one? The Hinduism of 2000 years ago, or that of here and now?
    For the one that is here and now you, you admit that that Hinduism is responding to fascism of others with a dose of fascism of its own. But then you still insist that Hindu Fascism is unnatural!!
    Whatever.

    Then you try a comedy routine and you tell a joke about Stalinist Soviet Union.
    I guess you are trying to point out that like Stalin’s Russia the Pakistani Muslims don’t tolerate any criticism.
    But wait. Notice where you make this profound observation about Pakistani intolerance.

    Where else but on that Pakistani forum the PTH!

    You write further:
    “When I write in a Pakistani forum then it is only natural that I will be primarily pointing out the defects, deficiencies and evils in islam” Not quite satisfied with that you go one to slander their founder with a senseless, juvenile name calling:
    “Jinnah was a SMOT (=Scoundrel, Megalomaniac, Opportunist, Turncoat)….”

    Now you are on the roll.
    Somehow even the above diatribe does not feel very satisfying so now, what the heck; you go off on the fellow Indians as well with the following observations:
    “But since 16% population of India consists of quislings and mental slaves of islam and these 16% are much appeased by the ruling pseudo-secular nominally-hindu ruling elites hence the evils and defects in islam are of much concern to India.”

    Reading all your posts, I notice that you can not string together a sentence without mentioning Islam and Fascism in the same breath yet after reading someone describe 16% of his own countrymen in the above mentioned terms, one wonders who or what is a Fascist.

    Regards.

  114. Bloody Civilian

    Gorki

    when one sits back and adds up the cost

    it is quite possible that one has already sat up and added the cost. quite probable, in fact.

    i’ve not seen any arguments or facts, yet, refuting such a probability that cannot and do not have a reasonable, rational and unalarming explanation.

  115. vajra

    @rex minor

    My first paragraph addressed to you was obviously sarcastic, and none of it represents reality; only a parody of reality intended to highlight the utter worthlessness of the contribution in question that we were both referring to . The slighting terms used cannot be reflective, indeed, are not reflective of my opinion of you.

    I am of the opinion that the respected PTH blogger G Vishvas does not genuinely mean what he says and has sorrounded himself by contradictions. He is not able to get out of the ring he himself has created. His views would not hurt others nor would they provide comfort for his soul.

    That is a wise summation, but does not cover the whole case. He will certainly not succeed in annoying or irritating any Muslims, because his arguments are so clearly absurd. An adult cannot be insulted by the screams, yells and capering about of a child obviously out to create mischief.

    On the other hand,

    – with his ignorance of the definition of Fascism in the political context,
    – with seemingly an absolute ignorance of the tenets and hallmarks which define Fascism,
    – with no regard to the distinction between the rationalist analysis to which ideology and politics can be subjected, and the transcendental analysis and completely different sets of tools and methods needed to analyse theology,

    he has gone ahead to define criteria by which religions can be ordered in terms of their fascistic tendencies.

    This complete lack of intellectual framework is what irritates me.

    It is clear that you are correct in saying that he does not genuinely mean what he says, because logically his statements are untenable, and that he has surrounded himself with contradictions, and as a result is unable to get out of the ring that he has created. However, in the interval, all he is doing is trudging around and around in a narrow channel, like a blindfolded ox at a Persian wheel, saying the same things again and again in a dreary sequence, only adding some laughable kindergarten abuse to titillate himself.

    Watching a human being do this to himself irritates me.

  116. G.Vishvas

    Muslims proudly say that islam is a complete system encompassing everything and everyone (which is a pseudo-clever way of saying it is actually a totalitarian system) and politics cannot be separated from it.

    So why cringe when political criteria like those of fascism are (and need to be) applied to it?

    Since hindu religions divide society on caste basis hence there is no fascism which needs unity. Fascism and totalitarianism are however inherent in religions that emphasize (at least outwardly) unity, uniformity and equality. George Orwell’s novels Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four are the starting points for a discussion.

    About pakistani-muslim intolerance : crucial question is whether PTH is read by many in Pakistan AND openly discussed? That my islam-criticizing viewpoint is published in PTH proves nothing. Is it being discussed in the pakistani society at large without leading to any threats or acts of violence? So don’t be self-congratulatory.

    Freedom of expression makes sense if the ruling ideology can be criticized openly and safely. In Pakistan this ruling ideology is islam – especially sunni fascism and its related islam-glorifying history-writing. Try questioning that in public and you will know whether Pakistan has developed and will develop well or not.

    Collectively denigrating me (as person or blogger) is not going to help you come further.

    If Jinnah had been really a good, wise and good-natured human being and leader then he would have left behind a will published in all newspapers that the hindus should be brought back to Pakistan and given full human rights (25% of the population of Pakistan was hindu before 14. August 1947. Now it is less than 2%). He would have deserved his qaid-e-azam title and set Pakistan on a different course if he had done that. So I am fully justified in calling him a smot.

    I give Jinnah high marks for opposing Gandhi’s religious foolishnesses and Nehru’s centralism – but to turn to islam and Muslim League as the solution to this problem was like running to get petrol (instead of water) to dowse a fire. Islam is far more anti-secular and religiously foolish-backward and centralist-totalitarian to be the right solution (as is now painfully proved in the islamic paradise of Pakistan).

  117. Gorki

    “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future”. -Yogi Berra

    Respected Hayyer Sahib, You wrote:
    “I have no idea where India is headed. It would take a brave man or an optimist to make such an forecast. I am all for economic growth but it does not cover the moral rot. Do I have to have a theory? Isn’t skepticism not theory enough.”

    I have a deep respect for your views and am fully aware of the fact that the exuberance often displayed by many Indian commentators on the PTH and elsewhere is rather misplaced, we are still mired in great difficulties as a nation. We have crushing poverty, deplorable corruption, deep economic divisions and the much discussed economic growth is still a projection for the future. Much can still go wrong. A serious student of history can not but be skeptical under such circumstances. I can thus understand when you inject an air of reality into boastful post from crass Indians of which there are many. Yet I must say that I wince a little inwardly when you administer a gentle snub to anyone; even those evenhanded individuals like Sameet who seem to taking a just pride in Indian nationalism. The reason I say this is not that I am oblivious to our short comings as a nation but perhaps because I am afraid that since we have those shortcomings, we need the narrative of idealistic nationalism if we have to pull our people out of their current state.

    Let me explain. I understand that on one plane, nationalism itself is a myth. People living in modern nations such as the United States, India or even the present day Russia, are not, can not be similar because they are composed of people whose intra group differences have a greater standard deviation than inter group differences between them and peoples of other countries. Yet they have used the idea of a shared nationhood to forge societies that overcame major challenges.

    For example, the Russians fought one of the bloodiest combat of all times, losing tens of millions and yet triumphed in the end. It is all the more amazing that they were led by a brutal dictator who was hated by many but who nevertheless gave their all in the name of ‘mother Russia’.

    Neither does it matter that the nation be necessarily old and established. A century before that; on another continent, other another country fought its bloodiest and longest war in the name of nationhood. It was an uncertain nation then, and in the words of its president, they were only ‘four score and seven years old’ (not much older than the Indian nation today.) That war famously pitted ‘brother against brother and countryman against countryman’ and brought the young nation to a brink of a breakup. Yet some how, that nation survived intact because its charismatic leader challenged it to fight on for nothing more than an idea; ‘That all men are created equal.’ He laid out the struggle as a proof of their nationhood, which in his own words was “testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.”

    Obviously Lincoln could not have known the future then but his inspiring words not only led to his nation to succeed then but also strengthened its spirit of nationhood. That spirit helped America to bind its wounds, overcome the bitterness of a civil war and to go on subsequently in the next century to shape a large part of the world in its own image.

    The point is that it is not important for the ideal of a nationhood to be based on homogeneity or for it to be rooted in history. As long as the idea of nationhood is based on a noble principle, one that resonates with its inhabitants, it can inspire people to overcome difficulties and make that idea a reality.

    I believe that the idea of modern India, a secular, equitable society that is guaranteed by the constitution of the Republic, is one such idea. It is riddled by difficulties and many unscrupulous men continue to exploit its weaknesses, yet many noble men and women (dare I say even you yourself in your own way) have contributed to make it what it is today. That nation is far from complete but its blue print is there. That blueprint needs to be nurtured and encouraged, especially among our younger generations.

    I end my long post with another quote attributed to Yogi Berra: If you don’t know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else.😉

    Regards.

  118. vajra

    To all members of PTH:

    This is a low-grade conversation. The only justification for entering into it is to ensure that one’s case does not go by default simply because its simpler, elementary aspects are never mentioned. Sometimes, we have to talk about these basics and about first principles, but the discussion will be elementary and boring.

    Be warned.

    Muslims proudly say that islam is a complete system encompassing everything and everyone (which is a pseudo-clever way of saying it is actually a totalitarian system) and politics cannot be separated from it.

    So why cringe when political criteria like those of fascism are (and need to be) applied to it?

    Try the answer, precisely because many on PTH do not agree with this characterisation. Precisely because many on PTH are of the opinion that the way forward for Pakistan is a secular democracy, where Islam remains a personal matter, a matter of individual faith.

    In your anxiety to find a pulpit, you have found the wrong one.

    Where did your holiness’ third eye detect cringing, by the way?

    Since hindu religions divide society on caste basis hence there is no fascism which needs unity.

    On the contrary, caste is a religious and social division, not a political division. Its existence is supportive of Fascism, not opposed to it.

    To quote widely available resources on the ‘Net,
    Fascism, as a political ideology, seeks to combine a radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system.

    Further

    Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state, with the belief that the majority is unsuited to govern itself through democracy and by reaffirming the benefits of inequality.

    This brings the inequality of other religions into sharp contrast with the rigorous application of individual equality of your targeted religion.

    Areas and cultural zones that have not shaken off the shackles of the caste system are thus more prone, more vulnerable to the suggestions of a political system that advocates inequality.

    The reverse does not hold true; it has been demonstrated historically that cultural acceptance of individual equality does not bring with it a political acceptance of individual equality, before you bring in any footling objection.

    To quote further

    Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalism and liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept. Fascism fashioned itself as the “complete opposite of Marxian socialism” by rejecting the economic and material conception of history, the fundamental belief of fascism being that human beings are motivated by glory and heroism rather than economic motives, in contrast to the worldview of capitalism and socialism.

    If any thinking apparatus is not on crutches, it can easily work out for itself which religious and cultural systems are closer to Fascism and which are not.

    Next, we have thundering mistakes in interpretation of literary text. We are told

    Fascism and totalitarianism are however inherent in religions that emphasize (at least outwardly) unity, uniformity and equality.

    Thus, all religions other than in our charming and quaint categorisation, ‘hindu’ religions (sic), that is no doubt an extrapolation of the six major philosophical systems recognised by ancient and mediaeval Indian scholars as religious systems, or possibly a categorisation following the alternative philosophical taxonomy initiated by Shankaracharya, but ultimately based on Vedanta.

    This is a bald statement, with no further logic or evidence adduced, so refuting it requires assumptions regarding the proponents thinking on detail, assumptions that can be conveniently cast aside by the proponent in question if they prove too disparaging to his argument, with the wounded remark that words are being put in (the proponent’s) mouth. So this might as well remain sidelined for some time, until more murk emerges; we are regrettably reduced to dealing with murk, in the absence of rational and logical alternatives.

    How do we deal with his howler, the misrepresentation of one of those texts of our own Bihar-born IP officer that seem to be the only political works that our sage has consumed?

    Animal Farm was a parody of the Communist Revolution in Russia, and its placement as a corroborative narrative in a polemic on Fascism speaks volumes for the clarity of thinking of the placer. This was the howler. Unless of course, our subject is of the school that believes that, stretched far enough, all political discourse is in the shape of a circle, and left and right meet in some dim and half-perceived intellectual murk. We return to the subject of murk, or the murk of our subject, much the same thing.

    Nineteen Eighty-Four looked at the other side of the political spectrum, at Fascism, as it was practised in Italy, then in Germany, then in Spain. What lessons are we to draw from it that are relevant to the present discussion? Those were accounts of a European society, that rejected its ideals of secularism, democracy and the rule of law. For that matter, why confine ourselves to this one text? The point is not very clear, because its applicability to either Pakistan or to India, or to Bangladesh, or to Sri Lanka, or to any other part of South Asia is not clear; it is not there, in point of fact.

    Coming now to a disconnected question, Gorki had mentioned that Vishvas was being published and read (after all, several fools have replied him, in spite of their own wiser judgement) in PTH, and he, Vishvas, believes that that is a fribble, an argument not worth serious consideration. After all, it is a limited forum, with limited circulation, and it is not at all clear that its contents are hotly debated over breakfast by households in Karachi and Lahore and Faisalabad and Islamabad and Rawalpindi and so on and so forth.

    Terrible error, isn’t it, choosing a forum with such a slender readership for bringing out this important message to the world? Those at the back applauding and cat-calling, sit down immediately, or you will be expelled to Chowk, never to return.

    Collectively denigrating me (as person or blogger) is not going to help you come further.

    Several points: I fail to see a collective denigration. Has anyone seen a round-robin letter? Or a jointly-signed one? Do several individual statements of opposition indicate that the collective is taking revenge on a lone individual?

    The fact is that a totally ridiculous point of view is getting its just deserts from a number of directions. Only the bankruptcy and idiocy of the thoughts and ideas of the originator is in question, and nothing else. This bankruptcy has been noticed by several people together. Given this forum’s long history of encountering lunatics, it is a safe assumption that every Tathagata Mukherjee is followed by a G. Vishvas, that every Surrender is followed by a Tathagata Mukherjee, that every Karun is followed by a Surrender, and so on in a series of turtles each standing on the other in an infinite series.

    Further, for myself, I like denigrating people like G. Vishvas, for their ramshackle methods of logical construction and argument. It is nothing personal; it is just that your thought processes are defective and require euthanasia.

    I shall leave the argument at this stage, since the balance was taken up by Jinnah, and there are far greater, better defendants of Jinnah than I. Also my own objectives, of segregating secular political matter from cultural and religious matters are met, and I have little motivation to continue beyond this point with this low-grade conversation.

  119. Gorki

    Vajra as usual your post makes great reading and I enjoy your reasoning, and rich language employed to convey it.
    Yet I can bet you my last cent that the object of your well written post is going to remain as ignorant and as unmoved as ever.
    For he has read Animal Farm and also Ninteen Eighty Four; he has heard the Word Facism used over and over again alongside Islam and needs to look no further.
    Somehow, this great body of wisdom must be connected, it has to be connected even if we don’t quite understand how.
    Since it must be so, then By Gawd minor things like logic are not going to come in the way of our letting the world know how much we know (even if we understand very little)😉 .

    Regards.

  120. G.Vishvas

    Bringing together islam and fascism is not my work. I have merely exposed something which exists as such since long.

    Being accused of illogic and lack of intelligence is silly denigration – what else is it? Are you sure your responses really refute what I have stated? May be the forum needs an independent jury and those who are already committed to the idea that islam is blameless cannot be the judges in this debate.

    As I said earlier I have my information about islam and its results mainly by reading pakistani newspapers. It is muslims proving enthusiastically that a good human society cannot be created or maintained on the basis of islam. I have emails from pakistanis who confirm this conclusion. Since they live in Pakistan they dare not say so openly, but encourge me to write it out.

    Islam was created in Makkah and Madinah and hence in the indian subcontinent (ISC) it is an alien arab imperialist ideology. The hindu religions are (largely) indigenous and absorb also alien ideas, but continue to evolve, they are not finalized. Islam was finalized and fossilized in Makkah the day Mohammad died (khaatmaa e nabuvvat – a fascist thesis for which many were killed, e.g. the ahmadiyya). Islam destroyed many non-arab identities, cultures and even languages in its imperialist course. Of those who call themselves arabs today only a fraction has arab ancestors. The palestinians were not arabs or muslims till arabic islamic armies invaded Palestine. The old iranian script was eradicated and replaced through the inadequate arabic script and thus the iranians lost their earlier identity and self-respect. So on it went in North Africa, Mesopotamia, Sindh, Gandhara/Bactria/Afghanistan, Anatolia etc.

    It is difficult for a muslim to be honest about the fact that islam is an instrument of arab imperialism, hegemony and racism and that islam is the major cause of his backwardness and sufferings. The way arab princes and lords are treated in Pakistan proves this. A muslim cannot be an anti-imperialist because he himself is an agent or quisling of islamic-arbic imperialism. This explains why Kemal Pasha Ataturk hated arabs and islam and threw out the arabic script from Turkey. Introducing/enforcing the arabic script was one of the biggest social crimes in the ISC. It partitioned the people of ISC into two incompatible masses.

    We don’t need an arab god and his religion in the ISC. The god-concept of islam is fascistic. The treament which this god threatens upon ex-muslims proves this. No one who converted to islam knew what fascism is and how it functions and how to recognize it and hence they were fooled into entering a fascist ideology from which there was no escape.

    Fascism is a method, it is way of doing things. It can occur in a religion, in communism, in bolshevism, in maoism, in atheism, in monotheism, in a caste, inbetween castes, in political parties and so on.

    Does islam practise fascism – yes it does. There are sentences in the kuran which drive this. All muslim societies, sub-societies and areas manifest this method to varying degree. That is the reason why liberal muslims (their liberalism is not a result of islam but of their contacts with non-muslims) stand no chance of taking over and developing muslim societies towards secularism, democracy and liberal values. All the good help which non-muslims gave to the liberal muslims was thus lost and fell into the hands of the islamofascists. Pakistan itself is an example of this perverse tragedy. Facts have their own logic and it cannot be thrown out because you denigrate me or dislike my statements.

    vajras objective of separating religion, culture and politics from one another will not be met under islam’s hegemony. Why fool each other with impossibilities? When will muslims overcome self-deceit (often camouflaged as faith)?

  121. Hayyer

    BC:
    Sorry for the delay in replying.
    You are absolutely right. It does not help Pakistan just as it does not help India. I meant it in a certain context.

  122. rex minor

    Let us slightly upgrade the conversation, and for a moment do not mention specific forms of beliefs. G vishvas admits that his knowledge of Islam is based on the information appearing in several news papers and his conclusions has the confirmation of Pakistanis who dare not say it openly. Now, how should one agree or disagree with this honest statement. He also refers to numerous historical events most probably also obtained from the news papers and tells us his opinion. Am I to refute his speculative opinions about the historical events? Certainly not and instead wish him good luck. Mr Vishvas you keep your upinions and the religion and I keep mine. These were the words of Prophet Mohammad for non-believers, I am simply repeating them. I would, however, urge you to read if you please ” Critic der Reiner Vernunft” ( Critic of Pure Reason) by the German metaphysic Philosopher Immanuel Kant. ( in case you have not read it)
    I am also of the opinion that morality requires the belief in the existance of God, Freedom and immortality , because without their existance there can be no morality. I am a guest on this forum and am fully aware of my limitations( I have already been criticised before) and know that this is not the discussion forum for religions.

  123. rex minor

    @Vajra
    @Gorki

    You have put out so much intellect and knowledge in such an excellent form, who should I thank now? You people or G Vishvas?
    My printer is out of order at the moment so I shall need some time reading it and enjoying it.
    regards,

  124. Gorki

    rex minor:

    You are a modest, patient man.
    I believe you are a very thoughtful and perhaps much more tolerant of rude behavior than most, including myself.
    I do feel the need to clarify something though. Although Vajra can speak for himself, I don’t think he was criticizing either your intellect or your views when he wrote:
    “And I thought, Sir, that you were an intelligent man! I am truly disappointed…”

    In fact I believe he was being funny, and paying you a compliment in an underhanded way for trying to reason so patiently with Mr. Vishvas who had till now demonstrated that he is unshakeable in his own fixed views regardless of any argument or evidence presented by others, including yourself.

    Knowing Vajra’s style by now; I can say with confidence that it was his way of highlighting the contrast between yourself; an obviously calm and reasonable votary of the Prophet’s message and Mr. Vishvas who fails to notice this obvious fact and continues to insist that Islam is intolerant and Muslims are incapable of reason.

    You see, Vajra in his childhood days was taught at a fancy shimancy school by some compulsive nuns who drilled into him the entire vocabulary of the English language and then some. Now he likes to play with words like little kids play with puddles on a rainy day.😉
    That same schooling also left him with little patience for idiots who refuse to see reason even when evidence is presented to them on a plate. Unfortunately when he runs into some dolt like obstinacy, he gets mad and once he is mad, he then becomes incapable of conversing in a language which ordinary mortals can understand.

    That Sir, is my simple explanation for the fact that his second post addressed to you, (in which I believe he thought was clarifying his position) was no more easy to comprehend than the first.😉

    In summary, he wants you to give up on Mr. Vishvas as a hopeless case who could not grasp the subtleties of aanalytic or synthetic propositions, no matter how hard you tried.

    Regards.

  125. G.Vishvas

    To rex minor and others

    Don’t declare your own victories (like Bush did in Irak) by accusing me of things which I did not write or intend. Nor by judging me as per your own convenience of logic. You have not read me carefully and only tried to reject a part of what I wrote. Obviously something that I wrote convinced you so that you preferred to remain quiet about it (not wishing to admit that my logic is not all wrong). Why this timidity and unfairness?
    If islam claims to be the final guidance for everything (muslim liberals may not like that boast, but can they reject this idea and propaganda openly?) then we have to judge it as a political ideology too. And then the criteria of fascism become necessary. By calling something religion you can’t avoid this scrutiny. Certainly not in case of islam, even if muslim liberals would like to pretend that islam will become a harmless, non-political, private, introverted idea someday.
    We have to judge islam on the basis of its own grand arrogant absolutist and totalitarian claims and not on the basis of what muslim liberals wish for it. The criteria of fascism communicated by me are neutral and objective and have to be applied to ALL systems (ideologies, religions etc.), not just islam. And it turns out that islam is the most aggressive fascist ideology today (the others are much less so and hence less dangerous and less urgent to deal with). Pakistan is in dire straits because of islam and unless muslims develop the intelligence and courage to say this openly we are going to witness a worsening. All muslim lands are proving this to be so. Islam enforces a dishonest way of life in order to glorify or defend islam. The Arabic-kuranic god concept of the 7th century turns out to be a fascist god-concept which has its precedents in earlier some god-concepts in that area. This truth will have to be acknowledged – sooner the better.
    Gibran Peshimam writes in the jang/news of 21.12.09
    “Now imagine our history without President Gen Ziaul Haq. Where would Pakistan be today?

    Where would we be without the institutionalised radicalisation of the state and the country, which haunts us in the form of religious fascism today? Where would we be had there never have been Article 58(2)(b), which was used to dismiss successive elected governments and continues to be a bone of contention today? Where would we be if we had been under a democracy for the past three decades?”
    Here a muslim too uses the phrase religious fascism. In case of Pakistan it means Islamic fascism. So we have muslims admitting that there is fascism in islam too. In fact it is the core spirit of islam (=submission) leading to a certain mental slavery (under a primitive Arabic god-concept) in which fascism flourishes well. Muslims know that democracy is incompatible with islam. Yet some muslims keep fooling themselves and others that it is or could be made to be. Democracy has its own problems but may be it can actually reduce religious fascism-totalitarianism. And that is what islam cannot allow or survive.
    Muslims have learnt to hide behind the words of the kuran or Mohammad. That is no good sign. Become independent thinkers. Don’t be bogged down in the 7th century. It is an insult to mankind of today to postulate that wisdom and knowledge ceased to progress after the 7th century and we have to only parrot what some persons said in the 7th or some other earlier century. Come and live as an independent self-respecting person in the 21st century – at least try to do so. Be a good exemplary for the less intelligent and knowledgeable. Don’t exhibit parroting tendencies. Not everything that Mohammad did or kuran said makes good sense today. Don’t be quislings of Arabic imperialism or chauvinism anymore. The Sindhu river basin and its people have their own good respectable history apart from the defeats and insults which they suffered at the hands of the marauding muslims (arabs, turks, Iranians, afghans etc.). The whole complex of history writing and narration in the muslim world is under the sword of islam-glorification and Islamic-arabic fascism-imperialism. Many Pakistanis are sick and sickened of this falsified pro-islamic history-narration. When will that be changed if not now? Are you waiting for the blue moon to appear?
    Denigrating me will not help you (I do not claim perfection) – rather better if you take me seriously and not try to score silly polemic points by mocking at me. The real friend is the one who criticizes and not the one who flatters. Islam (an import from tribal Arabia) ruins Pakistan and hence islam has to be exposed as the evil. Hindus and hindu religions play no role in Pakistan and hence need not be criticized in the PTH. Mocking those who expose islam’s fascism is an attempt to reserve a seat in allah’s heaven – but that opportunism will ruin human lives in Pakistan territory (which is originally hindu land snatched by islam through typical islamic aggression, violence and deceit).

  126. vajra

    @Gorki

    My day will come. Blood will flow ankle-deep in the gutters.

    @rex minor

    Gorki has written this at either noon or midnight and has suffered the traditional penalty that his faith has been condemned to.

    Vajra in his childhood days was taught at a fancy shimancy school by some compulsive nuns who drilled into him the entire vocabulary of the English language and then some.

    The list:
    1955 – 1956 (2 years): Mr. Pires’ Primary School Calcutta (English medium)
    1957 – 1960 (4 years): Jalpaiguri Zila High School (Bengali medium)
    1961 – 1963 (3 years): Barrackpore Government High School (Bengali medium)
    1964 – 1965 (2 years) : Sainik School, Purulia (English medium)
    1966 – 1967 (2 years): La Martiniere Calcutta (English medium)

    Please note: not a nun in the picture. Please also note: 6 years in English, 7 years in Bengali.

    Please ignore his slanders.

  127. vajra

    @rex minor

    I am glad you enjoyed the ‘deconstruction’. With autodidacts like G. Vishvas, being self-taught, they are entirely unconvinced of any criticism of their positions, until and unless these positions are ‘deconstructed’ word by word, sentence by sentence. It is not much fun, but it is like a concert pianist practising his scales at least once a day: the practice keeps fingers supple, in this case, the logical thought process supple.

    To my joy, there are two other garbage bags to rifle through, one created on December 20, the other on December 21. Unfortunately, they seem to be boring people, not holding their interest, because nobody replies, and only you and Gorki have noticed my painstaking responses. If it were not for that, I would have deconstructed these too individually, since by then, all he has to say is the same thing with a few variations of phrase.

    @Moderators

    The swine flu has spread to other threads as well. You have been warned.🙂

  128. G.Vishvas

    To vajra
    I am saying the same things because you are not replying to what I write but to what you think I write or to what you think I must be meaning.

    Regarding deconstruction – I do not see any word by word deconstruction as claimed by you. What you do not like or cannot refute you subsume under some word like “deconstruct” and think that you have dealt with it “victoriously”.

    The real question that I am repeating is : does real-existing islam satisfy certain criteria of fascism or not and whether this fascism is inherent in islam or not. This question is being avoided assiduously. Instead my person or intelligence has been denigrated or mocked at. Is that a logical way to discuss?

    We need an impartial jury and not persons who declare their own (debating) victories like Bush did in Irak (and Obama may have to do in Afghanistan).

    So I repeat (while I must) the 9 criteria of fascism:

    The following 9 criteria (and there are more of them) help us determine the fascism-content of an ideology or religion:
    1.2.3.) Treatment given to ex-members, women and non-members
    4.5.6.) Control over education, media, entertainment
    7.8.9.) Control over history-writing, faith, judiciary
    (Treatment of women includes the sub-criteria about control over sex, sexuality, marriage, reproduction and ownership and indoctrination of children.)

    Islam is clearly the most aggressively fascist ideology/religion today, both in theory and in practice.

    Let us see you debate this and publish it in Pakistan so that a larger section also comes to know about it. Avoiding this discussion is actually another proof that this fascism is really holding you down.

  129. vajra

    @G. Vishvas

    It is no longer an intellectual matter for me, but has only entertainment value.😀

    I cannot reply to what you think you have written, but only to what you have in fact written, in black and white.

    Your fundamental premises are wrong, when you stateThe following 9 criteria (and there are more of them) help us determine the fascism-content of an ideology or religion: for the simple reason that an ideology can be called fascist, technically, by the definitions of political science, the only definitions that apply, but a religion cannot be called fascist.

    Since you have no fundamental understanding, and this is not a gibe, just a clinical appreciation of the situation, you have not yet understood that a religion cannot be equated to an ideology.

    Please clear up your confusion on this basic issue, before you propose your nine self-evolved, newspaper-generated criteria determining fascism in religion. You will find that as you clear your confusion, your mistaken analysis will itself dissolve and vanish.

    I hope that you find your way out of the labyrinth that you have unnecessarily built around yourself.

  130. vajra

    @G. Vishvas

    The other thing that you need to know, although it has been conveyed enough times in various forms, that I am neither Muslim nor Pakistani. My objection to your deranged formulations is based on the unwillingness to allow such garbled expressions into the public domain.

    So I neither can nor wish to publish your drivel in Pakistan. I neither can nor wish to debate this and publish it in Pakistan so that a larger section also comes to know about it.

    Avoiding this discussion is actually another proof that this fascism is really holding you down.

    Some additional examples of your clouded logic. How can avoiding this discussion prove or disprove anything for an agnostic Hindu?

  131. Hayyer

    G Vishvas:
    “(I do not claim perfection)
    No, surely not 100% perfection, but getting close dont you believe?

  132. Karaya

    Vajra,

    Unfortunately, they seem to be boring people, not holding their interest, because nobody replies, and only you and Gorki have noticed my painstaking responses.

    Not to worry, sir; your labour and constancy is noticed by a few more still.

    Would you please care to drop me a mail at: karaya[.]karaya[@]gmail.com (remove brackets)

  133. HelloHello

    During cold war against Russians 60000 US soldiers died in Vietnam and not a single US soldier died in Afghanistan making US victorious. How come…. Did God sent help to US?…………or it was Pakistan army……….Hmmmm

  134. HelloHello

    Bringing peace in Pakistan is also a responsiblity of USA where people are moderate and friendly if just a few people who are bad does not mean that the west leave Pakistan again to deal with the current crisis

  135. HelloHello

    Dear G.Vishvas

    Sorry for the defeats by the muslims Viahvas. You sound unbised and talking things without knowledge. Speaking of democracy, Islam taught democracy when after Mohammad, people refused to choose his blood relative Ali as the new Caliph and voted for a non family person.
    May be its the right time and right place for you to say all this about Islam but why your grand grand parents didnot say all this a few centuries ago

    Oh and did I mention that during cold war against Russians 60000 US soldiers died in Vietnam and not a single US soldier died in Afghanistan making US victorious. How come…. Did God sent help to US?…………or it was Pakistan army. Don’t they owe something to Pakistan. Has Pakistan demandes anything in return or its just a small slave country and small enough to be ignored. Bringing peace in Pakistan is also a responsiblity of USA where people are moderate and friendly if just a few people who are bad does not mean that the west leave Pakistan again to deal with the current crisis. Time comes and time goes but what people will remember is how honestly the west tried to workout the things.

  136. G.Vishvas

    To vajra

    Islam claims to be a political system – hence political criteria have to be applied to it. These criteria prove that islam has a large, unavoidable, unreformable fascism content. This is proved in practise in Pakistan and many other islam-based societies. It is not my fanatsy here.

    Relgion cannot be excluded from criticism. In fact your attempt to exculde religions from public or private criticism is a fascism-encouraging act.

    Whether what I express is drivel or not cannot be decided by you (=vajra) alone. Let me know if more people call it drivel. I have the right to know the comments of many others too. And even if 99% call it drivel, it still may not be drivel. What makes you think that the larger section need not know about what I write?

  137. hoss

    G.Vishvas
    ” Let me know if more people call it drivel.”

    Me too.

    I know you need a bigger audience. PTH is a small site. So I would recommend you start page on Face book or visit http://www.Chowk.com there are plenty of people there who write exactly what you write here. I would say join them, the more the merrier.
    Really no kidding. Just try that site more people, more Pakistani to listen to you.

  138. vajra

    @ G. Vishvas

    It is tempting to recall the late, great Adorno-Brunswick and in homage to his memory, address you as F. Vishvas, but I shall forego a temptation that will never explain itself to you.

    Even if sections of Muslims insist that their religious beliefs are an all-inclusive philosophy that covers the entire gamut of human existence, it is for the discriminating observer – you, for instance, if you do not find yourself repelled at the possibility of being cast as such – to, shall we say, discriminate? Unless you wish to adopt the entirety of what they say, rather than picking and choosing the sections that suit your views of politics, society and religion.

    Religion need not be excluded from criticism. I have not ever sought exclusion of religion from criticism. The mistake that you are making – again, with a complete blindness that is a lesson in itself – is in confusing criticism of religion using tools and methods native to a study of comparative religions with criticism of religion using tools and methods which lend themselves only to criticism of comparative politics, comparable political systems, in other words.

    Further, if you have spent time, any time, on the criteria that define fascism, rather than depending on Readers’ Digest definitions, you would have found that there is a reasonably exact set of criteria that determine a fascist state or a fascist ideology or fascistic ways of thought. The reference to Adorno-Brunswick may prove useful, except that to the best of my knowledge, the good professor has not featured in the news or views sections of Pakistani newspapers of late years, and you may therefore have missed any references to him. It is to be hoped that your academic research is to be taken as incomplete.

    Regarding my mild characterisation of your output so far, unless you have some shocks up your sleeves, I should imagine that it is a fair characterisation from my point of view. As you have correctly pointed out, it is for others to agree or to disagree; there is hardly anything I can do about it. You surely do not expect me to lead a popular movement in a neighbouring country to have submissions by a commenter on one of their better blog-sites characterised as ‘drivel’.

    I regret greatly that I am unable to carry out your instructions and let you know if more people call it drivel. It should have been obvious what the answer could be if you had glanced through the responses that you have generated among others. But as an alternative, you could subscribe to a cutting service.

    That would be a more appropriate method to ascertain the views of others rather than commissioning me to do the garbage collection for you.

    I can only look at what you have written, subject your logic to a close scrutiny and come to a very personal conclusion; my conclusion is that you have generated drivel, and it seems are incapable of generating anything but drivel, since in all this exchange, you have apparently not learnt a single new thing.

    This is the hallmark of a closed mind.

    Now, sadly, far from the intellectual roots of this discussion, we have your assertion that even if 99% call it (presumably you are referring to your views on the universe) drivel, it still may not be drivel.

    Please do not be surprised or alarmed at the following statement. I assure you that everybody on this blog will agree with this assertion of yours. Even if it is your view alone that your views are not drivel, you will be right in asserting that the possibility exists. This is a fiercely libertarian forum. Your continued presence is a proof and a triumphant celebration of its libertarian character.

    Finally, the culmination of your peroration: What makes you think that the larger section need not know about what I write? Oh, dearie, dearie me, nothing, nothing at all. Since your mental system is closed permanently to all inputs but your own, I suppose that it is pointless to refer you to my last despairing attempt to convince you that, not being the Martial Law Administrator of our adjoining country, I am singularly ill-equipped to compel people to read, ah, your lucubrations, since the word drivel seems to draw your particular hostility. As a futile, despairing reminder issued at the foot of my intellectual grave, to which I am being hounded, may I add a fragment for your delectation?

    I am neither Muslim nor Pakistani. My objection to your deranged formulations is based on the unwillingness to allow such garbled expressions into the public domain.

    So I neither can nor wish to publish your drivel in Pakistan. I neither can nor wish to debate this and publish it in Pakistan so that a larger section also comes to know about it.

    Now, with one foot in the grave, may I point out that it is entirely for you to popularise your views? An excellent method would be to learn Urdu, and to propagate your views on the steps of a few, carefully-selected institutions in that great country; unfortunately, your dilatory ways have already deprived you of an exuberant and enthusiastic audience at the Red Mosque. Undoubtedly, substitutes and supplements can be found.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and all on PTH.

  139. Gorki

    Vishvas Bhai, in the interest of my friend Vajra’s blood pressure and his general health, I am going to make one sincere effort to have you understand what he has been trying to have you understand without much luck in the past few days.
    Your posts may or may not be drivel but you demonstrate a huge bias based on a very shallow knowledge of history.
    For starters, you assume that the incursion of faith in the political arena is unique to Islam and do not seem to understand the almost every human civilization has at one time or another based its political authority on the divine nexus between man and God and political theology is as old as mankind itself.
    Thus secularism, is a relatively modern western concept which emerged out of several broad trends; the rise of rise of nationalism and modern nation-states, the evolution of modern capitalism, the scientific revolution and, most importantly, the Protestant Reformation and the Wars of Religion during the 16th and 17th centuries. It is this latter development that led to a rise of political secularism. Before that there was gross intolerance in Christian Europe, most denominations were interested in enforcing religious uniformity on their societies, each of them claiming exclusive knowledge of God’s will on earth and warning of the dangers of social disorder if religious toleration was allowed to flourish. Sounds familiar?

    It was only after Europe had literally bled itself to near death that it saw the emergence of tolerance between the Catholics and Protestants as well as the various Protestant sects. In short, the idea of a separation between church and state originated as a political solution out of an existential dilemma. The age of enlightenment further lent weight to this concept when an influential modern thinker; John Locke in his A Letter Concerning Toleration, argued, that we can “distinguish exactly the business of civil government from that of religion and … settle the just bounds that lie between the one and the other.” In other words; he called for a secular state. Muslim societies and empires historically did not face the same kind of all-consuming wars of religion and debates over religious toleration.

    Your problem is that you assume that Islam is incapable of evolving and that all Islam is political. It is not.
    There is the religion of Islam, that as alluded to by Vajra needs to be discussed in a comparative religious model and is a personal faith of about one billion people.

    There is also political Islam but your other problem is that you assume that all political Islam is monolithic, transnational and independent of a social, political and national context; that Islamists are all single-minded fanatics, obsessed with Sharia.

    Again it is not.
    There are two countries, Saudi Arabia and Iran who call themselves Islamic states and have a grossly different form of government. Then there are a wide spectrum of Islamic movements ranging from the political JI in Pakistan and the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt to the more extremist (and universally reviled) Taliban and the Al Qaeda. Somewhere between these are the Hamas the Hezbollah. Each one of them is motivated by different reasons and has different ideas as to what kind of Islam they would like to see.

    One can even argue that on a world wide basis, Islamic extremism is a new phenomenon. Historically speaking, Islam has been more tolerant of religious pluralism than Christendom in most of the last millennia. The record of the Moorish and subsequent Catholic rule in Spain is a testament to that fact. Until the mid 20th century, the city of Baghdad had a population that was one third Jewish. In India too, in spite of all the medieval savagery of many Muslim rulers, Hinduism persisted and coexisted as a dominant religion even after several centuries of Islamic rule. Compared to that, Buddhism in India and Islam in Spain are all but extinct after these religions ceased to be the religions of the ruling elite.

    Political Islam that we see today can be fully understood if one is aware of several worldwide evolutionary processes that it underwent and that span a millennia; natural famines and disasters, foreign intervention and invasions starting from the Crusades of the 11th to 13th centuries, the Mongol invasion of 1258 (which sacked the Abbasid caliphate), the Christian reconquest of the Iberian peninsula and the colonial experience in the modern period. Due to this significantly different historical experience with respect to religious toleration Muslim societies evolved differently and did not need to think about secularism in the same way as the West.

    Unfortunately the Muslim world’s experience with secularism has been largely negative and has been felt to be an alien ideology imposed from outside by colonial and imperial invaders. Muslims experience in the post-colonial era was marked by despotism, dictatorship and human rights abuses and many people wrongly associated western secularism with it.
    Yet it is not that the Muslim intelligentsia does not understand the need for reform and secularism. The discussants on the PTH speak for themselves. There are many more who are involved with introducing these concepts into the conservative Islamic societies.
    This is what a noted Pakistani humanist and scholar, Eqbal Ahmed had to say a few years before his death in an answer to a question at Harvard University about how to secularize Islamic societies:
    “One must make an effort to understand the past … with compassion, sympathy and criticism. The reason I am stressing that is that many Arab and Muslim intellectuals know more about the West, more about its modern history, more about the ideas of the Enlightenment than we do about our own [history and culture]. No significant change occurs unless the new form is congruent with the old. It is only when a transplant is congenial to a soil that it works. Therefore, it is very important to know the transplant as well as the native soil.”

    However it will be a slow process and cannot be imposed by us outsiders. The kind of insulting rants that you keep on writing are certainly not going to be helpful. In case you are still believe that it is only Islam that brings religion into the public arena, I leave you with the following quote:
    “Those who thought that religion could be separate from politics understand neither religion nor politics.” M. K. Gandhi😉

    Regards.

  140. G.Vishvas

    To vajra
    The red mosque guys are the real muslims. They represent the future of real islam. The muslim liberals may be more in number (or that is what we like to think) but 1 gram of poison in 99 grams of honey and the resulting mixture has to be labled poison and not honey.

    There is no reason to say religions cannot be or should not be judged by political criteria. We do not wish to spread superstition, religious braggartry, naivete, day-dreaming, emotionalism in the name of god etc. as a way of life. Pakistan has become a squalid bloody mess because of these. Even in India this problem is very much there. Religions ARE political ideologies – like it or not. Islam is especially strong as a power-loving political idea and that too a totalitarian-fascist arab-imperialist one. That is the reason why even those areas/societies which were islamized by the (supposedly apolitical) sufis are producing terrorists/fascists in such huge numbers.

    Hiding your head in (arab) sand is not going to work.

    PTH is a liberal forum of Pakistan – inspite of islam and not because of islam. Islam would ban the PTH by some means or the other. PTH is liberal because many pakistanis are sick of islam. So they have created PTH. Wait till the federal shariat court comes to know about them.

    The number of hacker attacks by muslims on anti-islamic websites far exceeds the otherway round. Pro-islamic websites are not being lamed by anti-islamic attackers, but anti-islamic websites have to face attacks every week. Why this difference? Because islam knows not the concept of free speech or criticism or freedom of expression (except to praise and glorify kuran, Mohammad and islam).

    Non-muslims trying to flatter muslims – that is not only obnoxious but actually damages the muslims. The flatterer is NEVER the true friend. Islam is a mixture of self-flattery and self-deceit by muslims and their leaders since 1400 years.

    Denigrating me will not help the (liberal or quasi-liberal) muslims caught in their misfortune of being muslims.

  141. G.Vishvas

    To Gorki
    Just read your comment after I had sent in the last one.
    In fact since islam (islamic god-concept) is younger than christianity (christian god-concept) hence it had the possibility to learn from the latters mistakes and sins. But in reality islam becomes more jewish (a pakistani muslim wrote to me that islam is 99% judaism), more arrogant, more totalitarian. A younger human being can excuse himself by his age – a younger religion (or god-concept) does not have and cannot be given such a facility. Why did this allah not take measures that mistakes do not get repeated? On the contrary the arabic-kuranic god makes it worse. Are the gods (god-concepts) evolving or degenerating? The kuran contains several sentences which reveal that an intelligent being with knowledge of human history and psychology cannot have written them. The ambiguties, contradictions, inconsistencies, nay, even mistakes and idiocies in the kuran mean that it is an insult to god (whoever he be that we so much idealize and wish to flatter and hope on and hop on) to be associated with such “drivel” being passed off as divine revelation. the kuran contains no accurate defintions of terms it uses – that is a throw-back behind even Socrates who lived a good 1000 years earlier. No wonder muslims are in the big confusion and are their own biggest blood-shedders.

    And if you are trying to say islam will evolve into a nice-neighbourly harmless-relaxed ideology (it definitely won’t) – but when, and have we time left for that? No more patience with islam and its agents and quislings. 1400 years was already too much indulgence to an ideology about which one could have said even in the 7th century that it is going to be a fascist chauvinist-arabic ruthless nuisance to mankind.

    What good could mankind have not achieved without islam? Is there any good that mankind would have missed if islam had not been created and foisted upon us by the arabs? Islam is as superfluous as a cancer tissue. I am not talking about muslims here – but about islam. Muslims are first victims of islam – unfortunately they then become instruments, quislings and agents of islam and try to profit from it. It is like a mugged person joining the muggers and partaking of the booty in later muggings.

  142. vajra

    @Gorki

    Several days ago, I realised that there is a God after all, and She is active and present in the world. She rewards devotees with good things; it is not yet clear, with the limited evidence that I have been able to gather, whether or not She punishes the unbeliever with bad things, but I couldn’t be bothered less with that part of things.

    There is no other explanation, natural or supernatural, for the existence of G. Vishvas. In fact, I suspect, with Paramahamsa, that G. Vishvas is not a human being; ‘he’ is a phantasm, a supernatural phenomenon sent down especially to delight this deserving worshipper (I may have been absent for much of this time, and may have seemed sceptical to outward appearances for the balance, but obviously cosmic understanding has been brought to bear on this situation: as the Good Book says, ‘Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin’, and the balance is in my favour).

    The delight of the psalmist is a mere bagatelle compared to my present feelings of veneration and gratitude.

    Consider the evidence please.

    – He makes the right remarks;
    – He never, ever ceases to make the right remarks;
    – He never varies his remarks;
    – He never panics and never, therefore, as a natural consequence, reaches out to his intelligence, and may be counted on to repeat his rote passages without wearying;
    – He never ceases to repose his faith, and never ceases to take sustenance from standard academic resources, namely, the Pakistani newspapers (without attribution, to my great and boundless pleasure and relief from malefic visions of libel cases) and nameless Pakistani Muslims writing in with revelations that his perceptions are exactly in tune with the truth.

    Under the circumstances, the sports-minded will see him as a bowling machine; the consumer of edgy graphics novels will see him as a gigantic Pillsbury baby striding down main street ready to be knocked down and ready to, erm, rise again (when did you last see Ghostbusters?); and the unspeakable riff-raff who frequent this unreadable blog, where the post, “In Pakistan, a Sex Industry Has Begun to Boom” has never gone out of the top 5, ever, might see him as an inflatable rubber doll, amenable….well, never mind, let us just say, an inflatable rubber doll well equipped to be, aah, amenable!

    I am away on three days leave, to view the mud temples of Bishnupur, and leave with the warm feeling that I am in Her hand, and that when I return, there will always be a G. Vishvas delectation available and waiting.

    I can only think of Satchmo and depart singing loudly,”It’s a wonderful world!” Thank you for this Christmas present.
    😀

  143. Hayyer

    G Vishvas:

    You comment on every post with the same monotonic message. You have said your piece and said it and said it and said it. If that is all you have to say you have said it. Can we now give it surcease?

  144. Milind Kher

    The thread of discussion has meandered away from the post.

    Let us get back on track and talk about the implications of Pakistan as a security state..

  145. rex minor

    It is amazing to see so many brilliant people with intellect and deep knowledge of religions and human Psychology pouring out their explanations why they disagree with G Vishvas. What surprises me ofcourse is that I hear similar views from many people in the West who are regular visitors to the city Beer houses. These people are no illetrates but Teachers, Professors, Business men and political elites. They condemn the entire Asian Nations including Japanese, Chinese, Koreans and ofcourse the entire Indian and Pakistani people, their religions and cultures and of lately the Afghans, talabans, jehadi groups and so on. Not to forget the entire middle eastern nations, their citizens and their primitive attitudes etc. In other words , from their point of you the only people left unblemished are from the white communities, anglo saxons and of caucatian origin. They do not discuss or even justify their opinions.
    I have only one problem with such verdicts, all of these people feel themselves still living in the 16th century. We are now in the 21st century and the perceived cofrontation of religions and the cultures is no longer of any value. My response towards these analogue figures is that if they are unable to add any value or some good for the human race then they should take get off the Pot, buy yourself a piece of bread and butter and enjoy their retirement. We are not going to use nuclear weapons of the 21st century to settle any left over disputes from the ancient times!!

  146. vajra

    @rex minor

    Excuse me, but with the utmost respect, may I point out that you have got it thunderingly wrong?

    Two distinct kinds of people have had disagreements with G. Vishvas so far: those who have weakly expostulated with him for his rabid and fanatic attacks on Islam, and those who have rejected his methodology, without commenting on the contents or the direction that his ideas have taken. My criticism of his ideas belong to the second category: it is his confusion between religion – theology – and politics – ideology – that I find objectionable.

    It is obvious that you will find the same arguments used here as are used by the frequenters of the beer houses which you too apparently patronise often enough to learn the views of frequent patrons😉 ! It is simply because G. Vishvas has been juxtaposing a religion with a western political concept, namely, fascism. Therefore, the weapons and tools to be used against his arguments are necessarily western. There is no political concept of fascism here in the eastern world, AFAIK.

    We are now in the 21st century and the perceived cofrontation of religions and the cultures is no longer of any value.

    So do you then agree that a classification of Islam as a quasi-political entity is equally valueless?

  147. rex minor

    @Vajra,
    It is not my style to discuss Islam or any other religion in an open forum. Religion is a system of Faith which was communicated by God almighty vit the Prophets, whereas politics according to the Oxford dictionary is a system of Govt.defined by humans.I have not researched these entities to establish their relation with each other.
    No sir, I do not patronise the beer houses nor do these people of the Right discuss any of their views with others. They simply gather and throw out their trash and are even prepared to enter into a brawl with the strangers.
    Islam is regarded as a way of life, meaning that the people could regulate their lives taking guidence from the Quraan verses and the way Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) lived his own life. Now, I did not ponder much to write down the aforesaid comments. In practice muslims, the followers of Islam could end up making grave mistakes in their interpretations. G vishvas has two problems, one that he cofuses Islam with muslims, and the other is his fancy oratory and twisted solutions which remind us as to what transpired in the ancent history.
    Ther are several nations who are currently equiped with nuclear weaponary with first strike capability and in my view are fully ready to solve their religion differences. We must therefore do everything plausible to avoid the potential human disaster.

  148. G.Vishvas

    vajra writes:
    “There is no political concept of fascism here in the eastern world, AFAIK”

    One should read ones own posting twice before pressing the send button.

    Here in the eastern world they did not know about the electron either, not even as a concept. Even in the western world they did not about it for long time.

    There is nothing wrong in my method of searching for fascism content in religions. If a religion has less of it then all the better. Why be scared of research? Fascism is a way of life just as religion and religiosity are.

    Some humans feel better or safer or more valuable under fascism. But we have to speak that out and convey to them the harmful side of fascism too.

    Why have islam-based societies fallen into the dire straits in which they are? God’s wrath? Too little islam? Too much islam? Are these questions being declared illegitimate?

    Fascism is not a western political concept. It is universal – even if some white man used the word “fascism” first. Some britsh man coined the word electron, does it make an electron non-existent outside of Britain? Fascism as a political way exists since long before this word was coined. And religions have had fascist content (in varying degree) since the very beginning. Even god-concepts can be fascistic -as is in deed the case with the arabic-kuranic-islamic god-concept allah.

    Islam’s rabidity and fanaticism has caused much pain to mankind (esp. to muslims) and to call my criticism of islam as rabid or fanatic is simply unfair. A harsh religion or ideology can be criticized by using a language that is necessarily also harsh. Why blame me or tarnish me for that? If you are stabbed then your cry is going to be as loud as the pain. Deeper the stab louder the shriek. Does that surprise you? Everyone who praises or defends islam will have contributed to the strengthening of islamic fascism.

  149. Milind Kher

    To hark back to the topic of Pakistan as a security state, security itself is itself not established.

    The Taliban is still blowing up schools, which shows that they are yet to be subdued. The LeT has not yet been tackled at all.

    It was with great joy that I had read about Raahe nijaat, but it seems that it has fizzled out, and things are back to square one.

  150. rex minor

    @Milland Kher
    There is nothing higher than reason, but do not forget the greek, “war is bad ín that it begets more evil than it kills”, said Immanuel Kant, the German Philosopher.
    Pakistan military is a very poor match against those who have defeated the Brits, the Russians and now the Americans and the Nato military. The sooner we admit the easier it would be to find a solution for the conflict,
    @G Vishvas,
    As soon as you are able to trust yourself, you will know how to live with others. To imagine that almost two billion people have a belief in a religion with a fascist agenda is itself a figment of imagination. Please cool it down, there are many wise bloggers who are earnestly debating with you for crarity and understanding. If you are really a 16th century demon, then please go back for we are now in 21st century. And please do us a favour, take with you many other fellow travellers who are currently spread across Europe and the United states.
    Have a nice day and Regards,

  151. Milind Kher

    @Rex Minor,

    Yes, history has shown that the Pashtuns cannot be defeated. Yet, there is a difference. So far, whenever they fought, they had the moral high ground.

    Now, however, they have turned into terrorists and oppressors of women. Injustice and power cannot go hand in hand indefinitely.

  152. rex minor

    @Miland Kher
    If I have the same facts as you have, I would agree with your condemnation!! My suggestion would be to please go over to the wordings contained in your second paragraph and quantify your accusations;
    . Terrorists, terrorising against whom and in whose territory?
    . Oppressors of women, which women, their own mothers, wives, sisters or strangers?
    . Sir, who are we talking about, the individuals, specific groups of people or a specific tribe.
    In reviewing all the material which gets published now a days in papers or shown on the cable network, I do not know who are we talking about. mr KSingh writes in another forum that the Pashtoons have always been used by other powers for their strategic advantage. I do not know what is being talked about. Are we talking about the same people? The Pashtoons have never left their bunkers and simply defended their own homes and that is why they have survived.
    Should’nt we try to give a face to these people?
    Regards,

  153. Milind Kher

    @Rex Minor,

    The suicide attacks carried out in Peshawar are sick acts of terrorism by the Taliban. And yes, by denying education to their own women and by keeping them sequestered, they are oppressing them.

    We are very transparent about who we are talking about. They are lunatic and barbaric murderers who know neither the meaning of jihad nor the practice of Islam.

  154. rex minor

    @Milind Kher
    You started off with the name Pashtoon and now went over to the word Talaban and perhaps would end it later with the word Arab, Tajik or a Foreigner.The Pashtoons do not commit suicides nor do they deny education or oppress and sequester their mothers and sisters. You have formed a picture of a phantom and now justify yourself in throwing abuses at them. You are filled with hatered and therefore certainly not a Pashtoon. The Pashtoon do not create an imaginary enemy and are usually very cool. My suggestion for you would be to erase your hate towards the great Pashtoon wariors and perhaps visit the busy tea houses and the restaurants in Peshawar and asked the people sitting there whether they are Pushtoons from the Pashtoon land or Talabans from the Moon. In the US and Europe they are known as muslims. Islamists, radicals, insurgents, Pakistanis etc. During the past sixty years the people of the sub-continent have never experienced a period of peace and tranquility in any given year. The murder of elected Prime ministers has always been a norm in your part of the world, millions of ordinary citizens such as Kashmiris, Sikhs, Bengalis, Ahmadis, and Afghanis were forced to leave their homes, seeking asylums in foreign lands including the UK, Canada, USA etc. And now the insurgents are being given the title of Talabans. If any one believes that after the areal bombardment of the Pashtoon land and use of heavy artillery against the civilian population causing death of old, women and children, would enhance the security in urban areas, then this is an illusion of some one living in a cuckoo land, certainly not inhabited by Pashtoons. In defeating the invaders in the past the Pashtoon people had no moral high ground, as you stated. It is also a farce to undertake killings of people and claiming a moral high ground. Imannuel Kant, the German Philasopher once said that ;
    “There is nothing higher than reason. But one should not forget the Greek, WAR IS BAD IN THAT IT BEGETS MORE EVIL THAN IT KILLS”
    Take care and happy returns of the New Year 2010.

  155. Milind Kher

    @Rex Minor,

    The term Pashtun and Taliban is not mutually exclusive. Pashtun refers to their ethnicity and Taliban to their ideology. Not all Pashtun are Taliban, though almost all Taliban are Pashtun.

    And if they do not oppress their women, why would they prevent them from getting education, and going out to seek a living?

    The Taliban and Al Qaeda are a liability for the Ummah. When they carry out these activities, people tar all Muslims with the same brush.

  156. HelloHello

    G.Vishvas and Milland Kher,

    Sorry to interrupt, G.Vishvas and Milland Kher are not talking by themselves, there is someone else’s ideology behind their arguments against Islam. By the way I agree to this extent that the Arabs defenetly did not deserve the Kingdom to be given to them in 1920’s. The activities done by the terrorists are like civil rights movement in US. They want US and west to give them their identity and ofcourse atleast one Vito power to an Islamic state. Or at least Saudi Arabia which has a history of loyality to the West.

  157. Milind Kher

    @HelloHello,

    “The Taliban and Al Qaeda are a liability for the Ummah. When they carry out these activities, people tar all Muslims with the same brush.”

    When you read the above quotation, you will understand that I want Islam and Muslims to be DEFENDED against Taliban and Al Qaeda.

    Do indicate what I have said against Islam. Yes, I have certainly condemned the terrorists who misrepresent Islam. If you can come up with cogent arguments, we can debate the matter. Else, we can call it quits. Thank you

  158. HelloHello

    What Taliban are upto may not be the right way since every thing can be achieved by peace and by talk like Martin Luther King and Jinnah. Did these people fight with weapons against US or British. No. Jinnah was a great Lawyer and knew the British law and government system very well.
    If Gandhi had not said that Congress is the Party of Hindu’s only and Gandhi will fight for Hindus only in 1919 chances were that pakistan and India were togather which was fine at that time. But now they are separate and becomming more aggressive against each other as the Major powers use them to be on their side.
    The Kings sitting in Arab countries are non democratic and agreed upon this system by British after the first world war.

  159. Milind Kher

    Partition was inevitable. After 1857, the British singled out the Muslims and denied them employment and opportunity. The Hindus, however, worked in close cooperation with them. This made a lot of Muslims apprehensive about living in the same nation with the Hindus.

    Mr Jinnah realized that the Hindus and Muslims were separate nations and asked for a homeland with a Muslim majority. It is possible that if Mr Jinnah’s worth had been understood and appreciated, he would have worked towards making a United India work.

  160. HelloHello

    We have to see the current problems in Pakistan from a little elevation.
    I agree with you that muslims were not treated well but Jinnah and gandhi were working togather against British untill Gandhi showed his mean behaviour towards Jinnah
    Almost everywhere in the world minorities have to live like this. It was Jinnah who was able to convince British that muslims need a separate identity in the form of Pakistan. Infact Pakistan and Israel were made on same principle. I dont blame British for allowing Jewesh state of Israel since the Arabs had agreed that they will follow what the British will say after the fall of Ottomans. Pakistan is facing all this mess only because it has not recognized Israel where India has recognized Israel in 1992 along with China. Pakistan has not recognized Israel because all Arab countries have not recognized it. As president Musharraf said that Pakistan has no problem with Israel and Pakistan will recognize Israel when Israel will recognize an independent neighboring Palistanian state.
    One important thing that we have to realize is that Jerusalem is more Important for Jews and Christans than for Muslims and now Muslims are not incharge like in the past. Let the things go in the flow peacefully and you will see that everything will be fine.

  161. Milind Kher

    As far as the state of Israel is concerned, I agree that everybody needs a homeland. Therefore, if the Jews wanted their ancient homeland, nothing wrong.

    However, they should have SHARED it with the Palestinians. Also, the use of excessive force in the violence against Palestinians is wrong.

    Yes, if they want to fight well armed armies like Syria, Jordan or Egypt, it is fine. Also, I doubt whether Israel is bothered about whether Pakistan recognizes it or not.

    It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but Pakistan is getting marginalized and becoming unwanted because it is unable to rein in the terrorists. The change in the US policy should be the best indicator of this.

  162. HelloHello

    Living in the US one thing I have learnt Americans are not evil as thought in the religious people in pakistan and afghanistan. Infact American religious people, Christians and Jews follow almost same values as Muslims. so what is the fight about? political hold? which really doesn’t matter if every one follow their own faith honestly.
    Though there are always issues with minorities what so ever.

  163. HelloHello

    FYI Egypt and Jordan have recognized Israel after intense pressure from Israel and according to one of my Egyptian friend, “They had no other Choice”
    Moreover Egypt and Jordan have refused to let the people of Palistine enter their countries in case of amy war.
    Don’t you think that India is wrong in Kashmir, why US doesn’t interfare Indian terrorists.
    US will favour India what so ever because of its relations with Israel and FYI India is world’s sixth nuclear state. You think that all this happened by itself?

  164. HelloHello

    Well Pakistan is trying its best to catch the terrorists and it has always helped US in its fight against terrorists but don’t you think that US should force India to abide by the UN resolutions and leave Kashmir. According to me the attack on Indian parliment in 2001 was a drama, then the train bombs and so on…

  165. Milind Kher

    Egypt and Jordan bowing down to Israel shows that they did not have the will to fight it.

    I have not understood your contention. On the one hand, you say that Israel has a better claim on Jerusalem than the Muslims, and that Pakistan is wrong in not recognizing Israel. On the other, you say that Pakistan is doing its best to fight terrorists. So, is Pakistan in the right or in the wrong?

    Well, Pakistan is fighting terrorists only in NWFP, and not in Punjab, where it is required. As far as Kashmir is concerened, they have opted for autonomy which India is quite OK with.

  166. HelloHello

    Well I am just sharing information and my comments are not strong opinions.
    Egypt and Jordan dont have anything to fight with Israel, if the want to fight with Israel they will end up like Iraq. That’s why they recognized Israel?

    I also now agree that Jerusalam should be shared but in the past muslims did not agree on any kind of sharing. Were they all wrong at that time including Pakistan and India.
    PLO agreed to recognize Israel so as Arabs and Pakistan if Israel moves its forces to 1967 positions and that is what everybody is trying to achieve.
    How come India reconizes Israel unconditionally in 1992? Inexchange of certain favours on the Capital hill.
    This same kind of pressure is on Pakistan now since Israel sees Pakistan as a potential danger which is not good for both countries and the weaker will face the consequences.

  167. Bloody Civilian

    @Milind Kher

    it looks like in trying to help rex minor out of the knots he had tied himslef into, you might have appeared to have taken your eye off the ball briefly. almost 300 girls’ schools were destroyed by the taliban in malakand (ie swat) alone. who were the girls going to those schools if not pashtun?

    i don’t know when was the last time that rex minor visited the nwfp. and if he did visit recently, i wonder which parts did he visit. who he spoke to. and who he chose to listen to. but of course, he is entitled to his views and his clearly implied, self-designated roles of spokesperson for and expert on pashtuns.

  168. Milind Kher

    @BC,

    You are right. The Taliban are oppressing their own people.

    However, I am a little foxed as to what exactly our friend is trying to say. Equating me with G Vishvas had me ROFL🙂

  169. vajra

    @rex minor

    It is not my style to discuss Islam or any other religion in an open forum. Religion is a system of Faith which was communicated by God almighty vit (sic) the Prophets, whereas politics according to the Oxford dictionary is a system of Govt.defined by humans.I have not researched these entities to establish their relation with each other.

    I have in fact nothing to add to these words of yours in the arguments addressed to G. Vishvas. Unfortunately, his fundamental weakness is that he does not perceive, or does not wish to perceive any contradiction or separation between the two. As a result, we have been discussing matters at a fundamental, almost a puerile, level.

    On consideration, your suggestion that he be left to return to the 16th century seems the best. Let us wish him bon voyage.

  170. Bloody Civilian

    @MK

    hakimullah mehsud is the ‘butcher of orakzai’ where he killed hundreds and more of local, pashtun shias.. and many non-shias too. in fact, the unhesitatingly random, non-strategic nature of attacks in nwfp and the punjab in busy markets etc. has been due to this utter lunatic taking over. there are some signs at least that the TTP are a little worried about a complete maniac like him making it to the top… after a bloody tussle for succeeding baitullah.

  171. Milind Kher

    @YLH,

    Jaswant Singh has presented a view of Mr Jinnah in the link posted by you which is refreshingly different from how it has been so far. This is especially heartening coming as it does from someone who was in the BJP when he wrote it. I am following it on another window even as I type this. I just couldn’t wait to tell you how brilliantly this endorses your viewpoint

  172. Milind Kher

    @BC,

    Assuredly, a day will come when people will regret handing over the reins to Hakimullah Mehsud. And surely, he will be the person who will lead TTP to its doom.

  173. rex minor

    @ Milland Kher
    Sorry, I was out of town on christmas eve.
    Your question, And if they do not oppress their women, why would they prevent them from getting education , and going out to seek a living? A very good question, now, why do’nt you research and find an answer?
    The word ‘talaban’ means ‘students’ who tried to end the civil strife after the departure of the Russians in Afghanistan. Today the word ‘talaban’ is used when one wants to abuse some one among Pushtoons or for that matter muslims. This is no different from the word ‘Jew’, ‘zionist’ , ‘gringo’ or like, I am sure you must know many other nick names simply to denegrade, insult and like the people one dislikes and even hates. What is Zenophobia?
    Question, The Talabans and Al Quaeda are a liability for the ummah.
    Answer. Sorry you are on the wrong path, neither Islam nor muslims need any defense particularly against the infidels, the non believers!!

    None of us are at fault -history is following its own course. If one does not understand the language and culture of people , it becomes very difficult to pronounce a verdict on their actions or reactions.
    . The Brits came into India as decent merchants and eventually colonised the country. Why did’nt the Indian Maharajas and Sultans burnt the merchant ships and sent these passengers to the Pushtoon territory? Thy would have given them a real welcome treatment in their own traditions and could have prevented the colonisation of India.
    . The Europeans went into Africa as missionaries with their gospels and colonised the local population. How was it possible?
    . Bill Clinton has done more than any other US President to rescue the Ummah in Jogoslavia from the Serb butchers. But then, he made a grave error, ordering the launch of missiles on the Afghan territory to wipe out Bin Laden. The American received the answer, namely, a fleet of civilian passenger airlines flown by the Egyptian Arabs who were educated in Germany and took their flying lessons in the US! This was not a talaban action!!
    Yes sir, you are right I have not visited the NWFP or any Pashtoon territory for donkey years, but I understand their culture and traditions and the feelings of its residents not far away from my heart beat!! While the army of crusadres remain in the Pushtoon territory I would not encourage any children to visit the schools built by foreigners and where apart from science religion indoctranition is being practiced.
    . G vishwas is not the first ignorent to associate fascism, the 19th century european ideology of totalitarian system which was invented by Mussolini in Italy, with Islam or muslims. George W was the first one.
    . The Saudi royalty response was quick, not a drop of oil for the West’ and this could have plunged the Islamic world into a war with the west which no one wanted? Yes, George W invited King Abdullah to his ranch and apologised for his remarks!!!
    . George W went into Iraq and caused the removal and death of S. Hussain, and after leaving his office was compelled by events in his own country to be replaced by B. Hussain!!

    . The Saudi kingdom should not be compared with any other normal country. They are responsible for protecting the holiest places of Islam. One might criticise them for not allowing their citizens to live like Americans in the USA or Arabs in other middle eastern countries.

    . But they still hold the key to start a peaceful action or the war path for the entire muslims in the world.
    . My prognosis is that in the 21st century the world will see the entire muslim armies rolling out of their bunkers involantrily, when called upon by no one other than the Saudi leaders, to spread out in the adjacent countries, destroying anything that is nor Godly . This has occurred in ancient times and is likely to be repeated again.
    Have a nice day!

  174. rex minor

    @Bloody Civilian,
    I do not disagree with your stories of horror, we read them daily in newspapers. But I do have reservations about your pronouncements and condemnations spaeculating about the identity of the villains. I also consider all those disqualified in their pronouncements if they do not recognise the fact that the entire Pashtoon region is currently occupied by foreign military and do not condemn the barbaric actions of the American, Nato and the Pakistan armies against the civilians.
    Your last paragraph is evident of your miscalculations, I am not an expert on Pashtoons nor have I ever claimed to be a spokesman for some one. I am what I am. The Pashtoons do not fear any one but God, do not accept any authority but their own tribal leaders and definitely have the criminal element among them, similry to any other people or tribes in the world.

  175. Milind Kher

    @Rex Minor,

    They are Taliban, not Talaban. There is a diacritical mark called the zer between the Lam and the Be. Taliban is the plural of Talib, which is a dimunitive of Talibe Ilm which means seeker of knowledge.

    It is they who have chosen to call themselves the Taliban, which is why others call them by that name. As far as your visiting NWFP is concerned, it is not I who referred to it at all. Do check whose post it was.

    As far as the rest of your post is concerned, I have not quite gathered the drift of what you are saying. But enjoy nevertheless!

  176. rex minor

    Gentlemen,
    Sorry, the TALIBAN are known here as TALABAN. We are no longer talking about the students but different groups of people, who are even heard in the cable networks as TALABANs. They have choosen to call themselves Talabans, since the US Govt. and the media continue to tell their audience that the insurgents in Afghanistan are the same Talabans who were once ruling Afghanistan ruthlessly and did not permit girls schooling
    I read Hello Hello commentry with interest and even amusement but sorry I missed the jist of the message. Pakistan is in a very difficult state at present, but Israel is a ‘No State’ at all. Throughout the history the Jews have suffered and despite the fact that today they control most of the world Govts. the Jewish people in Israel are waiting for the next disaster in their life. Their Govt. wanted a homeland for the Jews, but now want a Jewish State but the demogrphics are no longer in favour. They want to play the role of a Super Power without abondaning the role of the Victim. They do not require any ones regnition. The former military ruler of Pakistan was a great pal of the Israleli leaders

  177. Gorki

    @ rex minor:
    “While the army of crusadres remain in the Pushtoon territory I would not encourage any children to visit the schools built by foreigners and where apart from science religion indoctranition is being practiced…”

    A couple of questions:
    1. Why did you get educated in the languages of the ‘crusaders’ ?
    2. And if they are so bad, why are you living among them?

    Just curious.

  178. Gorki

    G. Vishvas:
    “Kashmir problem will be solved if non-kashmiri ideologies like islam (which was created in Arabia and not in Kashmir) are kept out.”

    A majority of ethnic Kashmiris are Muslims so how do we do that?

    A final solution?

    By the same token since a majority of the people in the ‘Sindhu Basin’ are Muslims; do you have a similar solution in mind for Pakistanis when you claim to be writing to ‘help them’?

  179. G.Vishvas

    to gorki

    what do you mean by “final solution”? where do you have that phrase from? why must you jump to that? is there some secret love in your heart for such solutions that you burst out with that one? is it possible to talk of solutions that are determined by dialogue, be it under very difficult conditions resulting from centuries of one-sided indoctrination and falsified and biased history-writing? can human minds change track or do you believe that humans must be physically eliminated? what kind of a fixation do you have? is it a conscious attempt to make vile accusations in order to silence someone? what do you achieve by such juxtapositions? whom are you pleasing (or trying to please) by blurting out such insinuations (you are not the first one to try it)? can you stop being naive or being a tool in the hands of those who wish to suppress honesty? do you believe that is possible and necessary to have an honest dialogue about history and history-writing? is everything that we believe today historically correct and fair? have we examined the history-writers and their various conscious and sub-conscious motivations?

  180. Gorki

    “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” (Hamlet Act3, scene 2)

    G. Vishwas:
    “can human minds change track or do you believe that humans must be physically eliminated?”

    It is amusing and nauseating in equal parts to see you play the victim here. I did not jump to conclusions in a vacuum; your own words: “Non-kashmiri ideologies like Islam ….are kept out” are enough to indict you.
    Your second post implying that you only want the Kashmiris to be forced to change their religion and not physically eliminated is no less offensive.

    What do you mean by being kept out?
    What is allowed to be kept in?
    Who decides what should be kept in and what should be thrown out?

    Last I checked; my country was a sovereign, democratic republic, governed by a constitution that promises in its preamble to all its citizens the ‘LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship’.
    If you don’t understand that legalese, in plain English it means that all its citizens are guaranteed by the law a complete freedom of worship free from interference from any arguments raised by revisionist morons.
    In even simpler words it means that a G. Vishwas may NOT call anyone’s belief system a “one-sided indoctrination and falsified and biased history-writing.”

    Islam is a respected faith of 170 million of my countrymen; and has been present in India for more than millennia. Many times more people converted to it out of conviction than were converted by force. It has given my land such heroes as Emperor Akbar and Sher Shah Suri, scholars such as Ghalib and Kabir, innumerable scientist, sportsmen, entertainers and statesmen. Its followers have shed their blood for this land and enriched its culture.

    Who arrogated to you the right to call their faith indoctrinated and falsified? How do you un-falsify it? Why should anyone have to listen to arguments calling their faith into question? When you decide to call a belief system of a fellow Indian in question, in a need for correction, you Sir, insult my country and its constitution. You also insult the memory of all those who sacrificed their all for this republic.

    In short, people who think like you are not friends of my country.
    Please don’t feign any false hurt; you are the one who is causing the injury with post after each vile post.

    Regards.

  181. Milind Kher

    @Gorki,

    Rest assured, it is thought processes such as your that keep India robust and vibrant.

    If the saffron brigade were to have a free run, India would become PE No 1 in the world. Forget just the Muslim world, burning alive missionaries and raping nuns would not be accepted by any section of society in any part of the world.

    In keeping with their tradition, genuine Hindus themselves reject such monsters. And the polls have demonstrated this again and again.

  182. vajra

    @Gorki

    Thank you for your fine post. I wish I could have written with your mixture of dispassionate logic and pride in our values as a country, values which shine through no matter how many scoundrels and knaves try to sully them.

  183. Silent Indian

    Amazing to see so few Pakistanis are commenting on this. 99% of the comments are from Indians ( perhaps more if you count the words). A bit frustrating as Indians like me are hooked to PTH to get primarily viewpoints of Pakistani liberals. I wish moderators had fixed some quota for Indians to stop them from hijacking bthe discussion.

  184. rex minor

    @Gorki
    Sir, you are getting very inquisitive?
    1) Did I say somewhere that I was educated in crusader’s language? I do have to understand the language of the people where I live?
    2) Your second question is a misread. I am sorry if I have conveyed any message of the sort you mentioned. No I like the people where I live! They are my neighbours, my friends and my relations.
    As a matter of fact I have lived in several continents and found people all over very decent, honest and hardworking, no different from the people living in your part of the world. Ofcourse there are others like G Vishvas with funny ideas but I do not take them seriously. They are harmless and less dangerous than those who lived before us, our ancient ancestors, crusaders, conquerors, sultans and maharajas etc.
    I wish you a happy new year!

  185. rex minor

    @Gvishvas,
    Both of us have landed in this forum without knowing that the intellect level expressed in the commentries is of a very superior level. We should thank YLH for this!! My advice to you would be to take a copy of the posts providing answers to your verbal attack on Islam, particularly the commentries of Mr Gorki and Mr Vajra, I will do the same, and take ample of time in reading it in your spare time simply to try and refresh your soul. With respect, we are all human species on this earth and sometimes our sole gets tired and goes to a deep sleep without us knowing it and that is when we do things that we later regret if we are still alive. Alternatively there are several forum on the Reuters Blog as well as in other channels where you would find many equals. I wish you a happy new year.

  186. G.Vishvas

    I had written a nice response to gorki etc. but I was censored.

    Gist was: Indian constitution does not forbid questioning a religion or faith and its self-aggrandizing declarations and self-glorifying history-writing. So I have done nothing uncostitutional by questioning islam and muslims and their faith and self-glorifying declarations. Every criticism hurts someone’s feelings, faith, honor, sacred ideas, beliefs and sentiments – that is in the nature of things. To not express a criticism because it hurts (or could hurt) someone’s feelings, faith, sentiments etc. is humbug. A criticism that does not hurt feelings is useless.

    Indians write in pakistani forums because of what Pakistan does or can do to India. Pakistan is, by its own proud admission, a dangerous place exporting violence, murderers, sunni fasc., arabic imperialism etc. That is part of their islamic upbringing and legacy.

    Indians (hindus) are cowardly, disunited and weary, fearful and disgustful of Pakistan, but they are not taught to hate Pakistan or do violence to it. In Pakistan however muslims are systematically, officially and religiously taught to hate India, hindus and hindu religions and glorify the arab god allah and arab imperialism by resorting to violence against India, hindus etc. Arabs like, protect, finance and encourage pakistanis who carry out acts of hate and violence against hindus. Some hindus who worked in arab countries told me this. Pakistan is a vassal of the arab (esp. saudi) power game. Pakistan is also a vassal of China and its imperialism. China’s internal and external misdeeds are regarded in Pakistan as heroic and to be adored and emulated.

    Islam came to indian subcontinent uninvited. Islam should remain in Makkah and Madinah and demonstrate its abilities there. If they are good then we can bring some islamic ideas into India. No cross-border or cross-language interference should take place. Interference is different from exchange of ideas. Arabs had/have no right to introduce islam, arabic script and language in Indian subcontinent (ISC). Hindus have not introduced hindu religions etc. into Arabia. Human beings in the Sindhu river basin (i.e. Pakistan) should realize that they are hindus and not arabs or their bootlickers.

  187. vajra

    @Silent Indian

    I think you have made a very valid point, and personally, I will do what little I can to leave the air free for Pakistani posters, by restricting answers to those posts that are compelling, and restricting their length to the minimum.

    Happy New Year to you, and thank you for breaking your silence.

  188. Hayyer

    G.Vishvas:
    You have said what you had to say. If you have nothing new to say please refrain from commentary.
    Thank You.

  189. Luq

    >Islam came to indian subcontinent uninvited.
    >Islam should remain in Makkah and Madinah

    Guys, I told you Indians are way ahead in the use of technology. They have successfully trained parrots to type. But they admit they have failed in certain aspects. They cant get the parrots to stop parroting.

    Luq

  190. Gorki

    G. Vishvas:
    I have already stated my objections to your words and don’t want to waste more bandwidth reiterating it. Simply put, the following are your words:

    “Kashmir problem will be solved if non-kashmiri ideologies like islam (which was created in Arabia and not in Kashmir) are kept out.”

    You seem to imply that Islam is alien to Kashmir and India and thus it SHOULD BE KEPT OUT! I strongly object to this statement since a majority of Kashmiris follow Islam. How can one keep them from their faith? Are they any less Indian than you are?
    Because your limited parochial mindset does not understand the difference between political ideologies and belief systems, between responsible citizenship and hyper-nationalism, between indoctrination and free choice, you continue to parrot some key phrases picked up at Hindutva camps or some similar gathering. You refuse to acknowledge that regardless of its origins, Islam in India is now as Indian as Hinduism, Buddhism Sikhism or Christianity. How can one even think of a faith that is followed by the 170 million Indians as anything Alien? You To publicly call for ‘keeping it out’ you are clearly violating both the letter and the spirit of the constitution of India.
    You keep on harping that people living in the ‘Sindhu Basin’ should repudiate Islam. Last time I checked, that land belongs to a neighbor, a sovereign country; Pakistan. That you go on complaining about others ‘interfering in India’ yet see nothing wrong in telling the people of another country that their faith is alien to them; I find that too very boorish and offensive.
    Here are some random names in no particular order: Muhammad Ashfaq Ullah Khan, Barakatullah, Syed Rahmat Shah, Vakkom Abdul Khadir, Saiffudin Kitchelew, Colonel Shahnawaz Khan.
    Do you see some thing that is common to them? If you guessed that they were all Indian freedom fighters then you guessed right. Then your line of reasoning would seem to imply that they are allowed to shed their blood for India but can not claim it as their land unless they renounce their faith. I find offensive. You claim to love India; learn to love Indians.
    Other than these above objections, I don’t think there is anything to complain about with your posts.

    And BTW, sorry Silent Indian; your point is duly noted.😉

    Regards.

  191. Milind Kher

    @Silent Indian.

    Your point is valid. That is the reason I try to limit most of my posts to a length that is as reasonable as possible. Yes, I do appreciate our hosts at PTH immensely. And I do hope that though my frequency may be high, my bandwidth is not🙂

  192. aaina

    @hayyer and ylh, i may be logging on from an indian ip but should this mean that i am an indian?Do nonindians (inc pakistanis) not inhabit a place in delhi called Shantipath?Boy, i have often observed with pain, lack of logic and coherence in your assertions. Which law school did you pass out from?

  193. Hayyer

    If you are not an Indian and inhabit embassy premises in Chanakyapuri then my earlier post stands.
    Milind, by the way is not a Hindu name. It is the Pali form of Menander the Indo Greek King of the area broadly coterminous with present day Pakistan, Indian Punjab, Himachal and Jammu and North Afghanistan. He became a Buddhist.

  194. Sameet

    I for one have followed Silent Indian’s dictum and kept quiet and followed the rather interesting discourse from afar.

    @G.Vishvas, its getting boring and tediously repetitive and what you suggest is impossible to do, even assuming what you say is even marginally correct. My suggestion, build a mind re-make mechanism and try stuffing 500 million muslims of the Indian Subcontinent into it to refashion them in the way you want them to think. Otherwise, please please stop posting the same old tripe again and again.