The Dishonest Crooks of Our Urdu Press

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

Ladies and gentlemen I have long harped on about the paucity of honesty, integrity, intellect and just common sense that is common place in our Urdu Press.   Needless to say the googlies of people like Hamid Mir,  Oria Jaan Maqbool,  Javed Chaudhry etc can make anyone’s headspin.   A Lahore based English weekly has a special section dedicated to  the bloopers of the Urdu press which is comment enough on such matters.

However,  this website and this author has also gotten some attention from a newspaper from Karachi that specializes in spreading false religious frenzy. One such hilarious misrepresentation is how this particular author spun my short blog on Obama’s Nobel Prize win.    Here is the original blog post for all to see:  https://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/congratulations-us-president-obama/

In this “article” (more like a two-liner) after congratulating President Obama for his Nobel Prize Win (which I think even Obama realizes is unjustified)  I reminded the readers of President Obama’s election pledge vis a vis Kashmir.   It is no secret that peace in Pakistan has deteriorated greatly in the last year or so and so I put peace in Pakistan on my wish list for Nobel Prize Winner.  Those on my Facebook friends list know that my status all day was “Congratulations Mr. President on Nobel Speech Prize”.   Only a fool could miss the heavy sarcastic undertone.  

Now let us see how our genius from the Urdu Press spun it shamelessly:

letetr-to-obama

 

And to think that this crook has signed off as a “Pakistani Muslim”.   Is this what a Pakistani Muslim is about?  Lying, control freakery?   Now I was not aware of the fact that I am a Qadiani…  may be Quaidiani (i.e. follower of Quaid-e-Azam)  but not a Qadiani…  but I frankly have no sectarian affiliations in faith (and to me personally there is no difference between Mirza Qadiani or Maulana Maududi… though the latter’s fitna has hurt Pakistan infinitely more than the former’s).    But if this is what a “Pakistani Muslim” is like,   I’d rather be something else – anything else.   Atleast a Non-Muslim doesn’t make a mockery of Islam like the author of this piece.  Shame on you Mr. Siddiqui!   Indeed shame on Pakistan’s Jamaat-e-Fitna e Maududiat and its McCarthy-ism.

 Now frankly it does not matter to me for barking dogs seldom bite.  But what it does prove is that Pakistan’s Urdu press consists of a bunch of liars, crooks, cranks and madmen who will lie like there is no tomorrow and spin like Abdul Qadir.     And it proves that  Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat is still active against Pakistan just like the 1940s when it abused Quaid-e-Azam and Pakistan like no tomorrow.   That puts little ol’ me in distinguished company.

236 Comments

Filed under journalism, Karachi

236 responses to “The Dishonest Crooks of Our Urdu Press

  1. Ahmed Abdullah

    Well well well

    pick your choice from the below if you don’t agree to what YLH has to say

    liars,
    crooks,
    cranks
    madmen

    Yup! and democracy is the second name of YLH; Obama is the Father of Democracy and Peace

    Listen Mister! I am aPakistani Muslim, and I fully agree with KHS.

  2. yasserlatifhamdani

    And what about KHS’ choice “Bandar” “kaway” etc? Or is it alright for him to use such language but I can’t call a spade a spade?

    And what is it that you are agreeing with? Did I celebrate Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize win? Because I clearly didn’t.

    And if you still can’t see the kind of liar and crook KHS is then tumhara khuda hee hafiz hai.

  3. Ahmed Abdullah

    Allah ‘is’ my protector, and he will be yours if you walk the right path…. only you can testify if you really are walking the right path🙂

    Bandar and Kawway is much better than what you wrote earlier about KHS in your write-ups, but yes, it is not right for anyone to use derogatory languague against anyone, specially in public writings.

    I’m agreeing with the statements Kashif has made here about Obama and America! People not on your freind’s list on facebook, can not know that you were being sarcastic about it.

    KHS called you a ‘Qadiyani supporter’, so you are!
    Rest of the article is about Obama and his insolence! what are you yelling about? Being called what you are not! but writing an article about it…. don’t you think its too much?

    I don’t blame you for bursting up on Kashif, but writing an article to redicule a write-up means you are derogating the writing actually, with the writer.

    So I stand with KHS for his words against Obama, America, Blackwater and Anti-Pakistan elements!

    @ everyone

    It would be better for all of us, including myself, KHS and YLH if we stop pulling the legs of the people with whom we don’t agree, I am sure that none of us would accept the blame of starting this, so without formally appologizing, let us call a truce on this matter, and just quit doing it! Please!!!

  4. D_A_N

    ‘A Lahore based English weekly has a special section dedicated to the bloopers of the Urdu press which is comment enough on such matters.’

    Yes, The Friday Times has a great section called ‘Nuggets from the urdu Press’ …

    A fine example of the utter pit of absurdity that has become the hall mark of the Urdu Press. A must read for all an instant chuckle followed by an immediate bout of depression.

    This KHS guy also goes into nutter territory by sayinig that Yasir Arafat and Elbaradei were awarded the peace prizes for forwarding the Zionist agenda.

    My own issues with Arafat’s Olso dealings aside (ala Edward Said)…but apparently even if you spent your entire life fighting the zionists or your position as head of the IAEA was spent trying to stop an illegal war on Iran, your peace prize will still mean that you are in the Zionists pocket. You just cant win with KHS!

    What an a$$****.

  5. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ahmed Abdullah,

    I have linked my original article. Only a fool will claim what KHS did… a fool or a liar or a crook.

  6. Ex Muslim

    A friend emailed me this article(in urdu) from Jamaat Islami website.
    My question,why are the fundamentalist so fascinated by Obama and his old grandma’s choice of religion?
    http://www.jamaat.org/new/urdu/article_detail/16

  7. Hayyer

    The reference to YLH and PTH is certainly gratuitous. It was quite unnecessary to the thrust of the article.
    Generally the writer extols the Taliban and reiterates Pakistani grievances, some specifically right wing Muslim, others specific to Pakistan.
    While Obama did not deserve the prize he cannot be excoriated for all the grievances of the Muslim world. He did not campaign on them and he is not answerable to non-Americans. On Guantanamo, or Iraq he has shown some movement though not as much as promised. He is trying to find a way out of the Afghan mess. While there is a Nobel prize to be earned for anyone who helps solve the Kashmir issue it was not something Obama promised his voters.
    The attack on other Muslim Nobel Prize winners at the end of the piece as American and Israeli stooges is unwarranted and completely undermines the author’s arguments, revealing himself as a bigot, and shows up the article for what it is, mere rhetoric. Abdus Salaam was an uncommon genius. His Nobel Prize shared with two others was awarded for his contribution to some of the most basic question of particle physics
    Reading the article was a waste of time.

  8. YLH

    How could Dr. Salam’s Nobel Prize be genuine?
    A genuine Nobel Prize would have been awarded to the Jamaat e Fitna e Maududiat’s leading scientist who figured out how to harness the power of the Djinn for electricity production.

  9. hamud ur Rehman

    I believe in what you written.
    The list of such people is even longer and need mentioning.

    Why you are concerned for his writing at end “a Pakistani Musilman”.
    Quite obvious, this is the mindset, thought that made us distinct and marginalized in the rest of the world.
    Try to do your best in future and keep it up.
    Hamud

  10. Israr

    YLH, sounds you are really angry on being called Qadiani (or Qadiani supporter)….lol. This is the price to pay if you speak your mind in this country. You reminded me the news I read in Express Urdu (Yes I do read Urdu news when I cant find comic books), quoting some ‘Maulana’ that Kerry Luggar bill is a work of Qadiani agents. If tomorrow Sen. Kerry is also accused of being Qadiani, I will not be surprised.

  11. AZW

    This Urdu article was a sad exercise in combining rambling thoughts, conspiracies, grievances, mixed in with author’s unfamiliarity with mild sarcasm and a deep antipathy towards YLH.

    Hard to find one sentence that shows the pettiness of the author, but I think this one takes the cake:

    “We all know that Nobel awards are awarded based on US-Jewish interests, even when they include Muslim names like Saadat, Arafat or Ebadi (?). Even if the name happens to be Dr. Abdul Salam, it is all part of Jewish interests”.

    Despite the multitude of towering work in particle physics, and more than a dozen leading scientific awards in addition to Nobel Prize, here this towering personality is being questioned for his achievements by this petty little pen, just because the sect that Dr. Salaam belonged to.

    Shameful, and painful to see so many of these displays every day in the press written by our so called Guardians of Faith and Pakistan.

  12. Rashid

    Kashif Hafeez Saddiqui (KHS)
    Knows old English adage, that he uses lavishly:

    Call him a Qadiani [original word: dog] and hang him!!

    KHS wrote a complete blog article in reply to one of my comment on his blog. He made all kinds of allegations and misrepresented facts. Gave numerous misquotes and references of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from SECONDARY SOURCES. None of his reference was MGA. He spread ABSOLUTE DISINFORMATION.
    He did NOT stop there. When I pointed out his ABSOLUTE LIES, and provided CORRECT quotes and links available on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) websites, KHS kept DELETING my comments. Anyone can verify, as I posted copies of my comments on KHS blog, on LAM blog. Finally he blocked my comments in that and other threads were I pointed LAM replies.
    KHS even deleted my comments where I quoted Holy Quran ordering Muslims to be fair and just especially when they are given responsibilities to make judgments and give testimonies, even if t is against their own selves and their loved ones!!!
    Knowing KHS attitude, I concluded this guy does NOT care for Allah SWT; why to expect he will care for some fellow human, especially when he has declared him/her Qadiani.
    YLH: Hopefully my above comment will help you understand mind of KHS and likes of him.

  13. Shiv Shanker

    Would it be possible to have an English translation (or even a summarised interpretation) of the Urdu article please?
    Thanks
    Shiv

  14. Gorki

    “KHS called you a ‘Qadiyani supporter’, so you are!”

    Supporting a persecuted minority is a mark of courage.
    The Danes proudly recount a story about Christian X, their King during WWII, who planned to start wearing the Star of David on his sleeve (as a mark of solidarity) if the occupying Nazis insisted that Denmark’s Jews wear it.

    So I must say that calling YLH a Qadiyani supporter’ is the best compliment his detractors have paid him in a while.
    Goes on to show that there is at least on ‘Mard’ alive and well there (I am pretty certain there must be more like him.)

    NOTE TO YLH: If you noticed the similarities between the attacks on you from the right wingers and on JLN even so recently from one of our frustrated right-winger, you are not alone in making that connection.

    Just a gentle reminder that you are in good company. 😉

    Regards.

  15. karun1

    @YLH

    look at the brighter side…you are getting publicity…use it to your advantage

  16. dr jawwad khan

    very balanced and well written article by great kashif hafeez siddiqi,reflecting the sentiments of true pakistani muslim.
    look at the selection of words, sharp but gentle criticism,clear mindedness and eloquence. top of all without any exaggeration….
    wonderful article kashif bhai!!!!
    keep it up!!!

  17. D_a_n

    @dr jawwad

    do you need any knee pads while you are down there?

  18. Natasha

    The author was actually ‘inspired’ by you to right.You should actually feel good about that😛 .

    ‘Urdu press’ was unnecessary IMO.

  19. bonobashi

    So Dr. Jawwad Khan is back. Our cup is full to overflowing.

    And he is back for the purpose of certifying a registered and licensed bigot. Oh, good. Takes one to know one.

    Yasser, I hope you know the wry quip, “A man is known by the enemies he keeps.”

  20. Rambler

    Pakistani mullah learnt about Nobel prize only after dr. Abdus Salam was awarded a Nobel prize in 1979. So the have to associate Nobel prize with qadianis no matter what. Just another proof of their obsession with qadianis and oh well ignorance. They still don’t know the difference between Nobel peace prize and Nobel prize for reasearch….This can be verified with kWh

  21. D_a_n

    @ bonobashi

    janab rejoice for more fun is round the corner… Our cup is about to runneth over further, i.e , ummi and talkhaba cannot be far behind.

    Dingos always attack in packs….

  22. Bilal Qureshi

    One reason Pakistan is out of control and in deep trouble is Urdu press in Pakistan. The freaks who work and write for Pakistan’s Urdu press really live in a world that only exists in their empty and delusional heads. These nut jobs are scary, misguided and pathetic and they don’t’ know this, but they have destroyed Pakistan and Pakistan’s future.

  23. dr jawwad khan

    @DAN!!

    i thought my entry could bring some heat in the debate :)….believe me i love to talk to you guys.it make me feel good😉

    @banobashi!
    bigot???….look at the language used by the brother kashif hafeez siddiqi and look at you.
    big difference ….isn’t it?
    he is one of top columnist of urdu press.
    appericiating some one like him requires a critical thinking…which unfortunately you guys do not have…🙂

    @natasha!
    where is the objectivity?
    ridiculing some one is the easiest job in the world. try to refute kashif hafeez with logic and facts.
    after all speaking and writing in english is not enough…right? writing is a first step to communicate with others.
    where is the objectivity guys?

  24. AZW

    @ Shiv:

    It is painful to read this jumbled collection of words that KHS is trying to pass off as journalism. And you are asking for a translating it. That is modern version of Chinese torture I think.

    I will take a stab at translating it tonight. Let me go and buy some painkillers in advance.

    Adnan

  25. dr jawwad khan

    @rambler!!!

    ((🙂 )) now almost all of pakistanis
    can understand, the “services” on which these “noble prize” is use to be awarded.

  26. dr jawwad khan

    @AZW!

    do not take pain killers! ask any one to read it for you..

  27. Gorki

    Natasha:

    No need to write any corrections; right was right (and very appropriate) before😉

    Regards

  28. dr jawwad khan

    @natasha!
    its ok…every one makes mistakes…no problem

  29. Gorki

    dr. jawwad khan:

    You wrote:
    “.look at the language used by the brother kashif hafeez siddiqi and look at you.
    big difference ….isn’t it?”

    and you also wrote:

    “bigest of all bastards is the one who loves Qadiyanis and Qadiyaniat. that is for sure…i swear :)”

    ( Comment by dr jawwad khan on September 14, 2009 @ 7:59 pm on Teeth Maestro)

    My question to you is: what kind of a doctor are you and where did they teach you to hate (and curse) like this?

    Regards.

  30. dr jawwad khan

    ooooohh!
    this time you guys came with full preparation.

    well! the word “bastard” was used as a return like you return the service in tennis. when @unnaiza baji used that word against CJ of pakistan justice iftikhar chohadry.i returned the word for Altaf kala.
    as far as qadiyani is concerned, i do like them in a certain ways… 😉

  31. Bloody Civilian

    “bigest of all bastards is the one who loves Qadiyanis and Qadiyaniat”

    “as far as qadiyani is concerned, i do like them in a certain ways”

    so what does that make you, as per your own statements? a self-contradicting bigot! why, what did you think it made you?

  32. dr jawwad khan

    🙂
    come on bloody!
    we both know who we are. isn’t that right?

  33. Bloody Civilian

    with the kind of contradictions on display above, and your dreams of waking up as someone else… you obviously don’t know who you are. just because you can’t see what you really are does not mean that others can’t either.

  34. Gorki

    dr. jawwad khan:

    I understand you don’t want to answer my question but that is fine.
    I see that this ‘dr’ too derives pleasure in cursing and abusing people of another sect and considers it some kind of a sport.

    Unfortunately others such ‘doctors’ have done it before.
    Drs. Gobbels and Mengele come to mind; look them up, you will be pleased.

    Regards.

  35. AZW

    God, this was painful to translate. Some one owes me a coffee here (or a nice cup of tea, since we are at a Tea House here).

    Buckle up and enjoy the fly by tour of the world politics, the Jewish conspiracies, and the honourable mention of Mr. Yasser Latif Hamdani.

    Adnan

    For American President Obama:

    Barack Obama Sahib: Congratulations on winning the Nobel Peace Prize. It was rather a surprise for us to hear of your Nobel Peace Prize win. Not only us, everyone else either went stunned, or laughed or just gave this event a sarcastic smile. Even you were probably not as happy to win the prize as the Pak Tea House’s Qadiani supporter Mr. Yasser Latif Hamdani. This gentleman declares himself as the spokesman for the liberal thought. He congratulated you and wished you the very best. He did declare his hope that you will give much attention towards the Kashmir issue and will look to get it satisfactorily resolved. Well, nothing changes when monkeys jump around or crows caw, therefore we shall let them do what they want to do.

    Respected Mr. President: you are the fourth American President who has won the peace award. It is quite interesting that when you were nominated (February 1), your presidency was barely two weeks old. Apart from your first oath taking speech, we do not see any notable words from you. But we are being told that you have been given this prize for some peace initiatives. Right now we are only hearing words from you but not seeing any action. We request you to stop weaving words and start taking practical steps now.

    Mr. President: You had declared to shut down the torture chambers of Guantanamo Bay, where prisoners are 100% Muslims. Everyone knows that these prisoners are subjected to inhuman torture. These prisoners are subjected to innovative torture techniques. Right after you took oath to the office, you signed this declaration. Yet we see no signs that this prison will be closed any time soon.

    Respected Mr. President: You had vowed in your election campaign that you will withdraw the US forces from Iraq. But it seems like your forces are stuck in a quicksand there and it is no longer possible for them to honourably withdraw from Iraq. Fallujah and Najaf are rocked by bomb blasts and mass murder; Muslim blood flows cheaply but your silence is akin to semi-acceptance of this situation.

    Mr. Obama: You had declared your seriousness in solving the Palestine issue, yet every word in your speeches is to the glee of Israel. In reality, your Middle East Special Envoy Mr. George Mitchell has been to the Middle East quite a few times. But he has been able to achieve nothing due to the obstinate behaviour of Israel and American Jewish lobby. We cannot forget Mr. President that when Israeli inhuman soldiers attack besieged Palestinians, their women and children like hungry dogs, you utter not a single word to condemn the act. Maybe you are afraid of those American Jews who had financed your presidential campaign.

    Mr. President: Muslims across the world notice that you collect sold goods in Sharm-Assheikh (????) and then try to achieve results to Israeli liking; exactly against the Palestinian wishes. Please tell us how can peace be achieved under these conditions.

    Respected President: We are noticing the increased activity of US in Afghanistan and Pakistan. You have sent 21,000 more troops in Afghanistan. Your army chiefs are calling for 40,000 further troops. Your army chiefs openly admit that 70% of Afghanistan is now controlled by Taliban. The same Taliban who have no modern weapons, tanks, jet planes, guns, armoured vehicles, night vision technology, radars or computers. Taliban just possess the drive based upon their faith, which you do not have. Your homosexual army can do nothing to them. You declare “Pakistan first”; the US Embassy in Islamabad incurs the most expenditure among all the American embassies around the world. 1000 US marines are present and now you are sending Blackwater here as well. The Afghan elections that were held under the management of your army were so pathetic that even United Nations had to call them a fraud. Your drone planes fly around and distribute death across Pakistan. These drones kill people who are terrorists according to you and common people or Madrassah students according to our knowledge. Pakistani masses are well aware of your special representative Richard Holbrooke and how he interferes in our affairs like a Viceroy and look for people to represent US interests in Pakistan. Our honourable masses have rejected the Kerry-Luger Bill. Since you have come to power, we have only seen hatred against you and America among Pakistani masses. We are the front line state in your war against terrorism; yet our army jawans are martyred in this war. We are facing suicide bombs on a daily basis, yet you and your administration never fail to yell “Do More” at us. Now Southern Punjab and Baluchistan seem to be getting in your crosshairs of your drone attacks, just like Waziristan. People fail to understand what kind of peace is that. People in this area think the peace award is rather a practical joke. But since you have now received it, we hope you will at least try to do something about it to respect the peace award.

    Mr. Obama: Everyone considers it an important event when American missiles are removed from the Eastern Europe. But everyone keeps ignoring the real reasons behind your step; you are trying to please Russia so that it won’t provide or help Iran the nuclear technology. People wonder whether you want Israeli nuclear program to end as badly as you want Iranian nuclear program to end. Please inspect the Israeli nuclear facilities. This is your two faced policy, and still you wonder why Muslims are unhappy.

    Your two faced policy becomes clearer with your pro-India policy as well. You keep signing treaties to further Indian nuclear program, while put sanctions on Pakistani nuclear program. We all see made up allegations about Dr. Abdul Qadeer nuclear network. Don’t you think people will not react negatively? Also, do tell what to make of your complete silence on the Kashmir issue.

    Respected President: Your speeches are quite famous, which is the reason why Nobel Committee gave this award to you by declaring that you have brought the US/Europe closer to the Muslim World. But observers of your words know that you simply weave the words very well. (A couplet from Munir Niazi is then given).

    Mr. President: In one of your recent speeches, you threatened to destroy the opponents of US interests in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Algeria and Yemen. Janaab, we must analyze why US interests are in danger in these areas, and also what will be the effect of your open threats?

    Mr. President: After winning this Nobel Peace Prize, that you never should have won, your responsibilities have increased manifold. But we know it quite well that all Nobel prizes are centered around the US and Jewish interests, even if they are given to Muslim names like Anwar Sadaat, Yasir Arafat or Al-Baradei. Or even if it is the Nobel prize for Dr. Abul Salaam. They are all part of Jewish interests. There are only very few exceptions like Mother Teresa, otherwise all prizes are means to fulfill American objectives. Even the Literature prize is given to the rebels of the anti-US governments; for example Russians, or Tibetan Dalai Lama or Iranian woman journalist. If you are serious about peace in your nation and the nations of the world, then withdraw your troops from the invaded nations. It is in your nation’s interest so that you see less and less of body bags. Otherwise, be prepared for history to make fun of you.

    Regards,

    A Pakistani Muslim

  36. kashifiat

    Dear Adnan ! Thanks for English translation.

    Kashifiat

  37. Gorki

    Kashifiat Sahib:

    You wrote well, it eloquently and clearly stated your POV.

    Nations act in self interest and clearly US is no exception. It has made mistakes and hurt others. However by over stating your case against it you may be weakening it.

    For the record please note that the US led war in Iraq was and still remains very unpopular in the United States while the war came to Afghanistan on the heels of OBL who still enjoys the Taliban hospitality.

    Also note that the Nobel Prize is like all such awards is open to politics but is not a US award nor is under the control of Israel or the Jews. Anti US agitators of the day like MLK too have been its recipients. It is not a UN award and is given out by a private foundation and its prestige is certainly not enhanced by controversial winners; thus you and all others are free to ignore its importance.
    Yet all of the above issues are minor issues. My question to you is this:

    How can you talk so well about freedom and justice, fairness and brotherhood and yet continue to rail against a sect of Muslims the Quadianis?

    How do you empathize with the pain of palestinians and yet justify discrimination against the Quadianis? Don’t you notice that while you change the labels, you too advocate exactly the same thing that you accuse the Zionists to be doing ?

  38. yasserlatifhamdani

    Well said Adnan🙂

    here this towering personality is being questioned for his achievements by this petty little pen, just because the sect that Dr. Salaam belonged to.

    What a resounding and stinging slap on Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui’s face.

  39. Rashid

    On KHS blog poster by name ‘Jay’ commented on Dr. Jawwad Khan. He accurately analyzed him. Here are few of his comments:

    ========================
    I feel sorry for your faith and the family values that raised you. You have to curse to sustain your faith. May God have mercy on you.

    The parallel to your line of argument is that to prove one to be a non-terrorist, one should curse Deoband, Jamat Islami, Liaquat Balouch etc. etc. Such an approach is totally against the spirit of Islam.

    Regardings Qadianis, call them to fight you over. You are barking up the wrong tree.

    Dude – you are already burning in the flame of hate and curses. Probably you are already in Hell. Pray for yourself. God is most beneficent.

    Physical idols of Lat & Manat are easy to break. Anyone with a hammer can do it. It is the idols of bigotry, hate, anger, arrogance, ego that are embedded in human mind and psyche that are very difficult to break. And that was the fundamental success of Muhammad PBUH when he changed the mind of the world around him.

    Discover your inner false gods and idols of anger, hate, ignorance and prejudices that you are nurturing and feeding to. Take your Islam to next level. Make your mind and actions as mercy to all like “Rehmat ul Alamin”. Go beyond lip-service. Put Islam to practice. Do not act as an attack dog. Rise to a human level and intelligence and intellectual discourse.

    Muhammad PBUH did disagree with his opponents, but never hated them.

    Follow your Quran. Follow your prophet. So that you may be rightfully and peacefully guided.

  40. dr jawwad khan

    @rashid!

    “pohnchi waheen pay khak jahan ka khameer tha”

  41. D_A_N

    LPC Dr. Jawwad….LPC…

    (my apologies if this offends anyone but there is only so much of hate and sick bigotry that we should be asked to stomach…it is just too much)

  42. Shiv Shanker

    Dear AZW,

    Greatly obliged to you, for the translation. I will brew you a nice cuppa, should you pass through my neck of the woods!!
    Shiv

  43. dr jawwad khan

    GKB …@DAN ..GKB

    and guess what no one is offended by it.😉

  44. yasserlatifhamdani

    “NOTE TO YLH: If you noticed the similarities between the attacks on you from the right wingers and on JLN even so recently from one of our frustrated right-winger, you are not alone in making that connection.”

    Thanks for the compliment.

    That is a connection that connects me to JLN, MAJ, MKG… this is the problem… why doesn’t RG realize that at the end of the day it is not about India v. Pakistan, or JLN V. MAJ … but India + Pakistan v. uncivilization … JLN+ MAJ + MKG + little fish like YLH Versus Mullahism, chauvinism, religious fascism.

  45. yasserlatifhamdani

    “even so recently from one of our frustrated right-winger”

    I hope this was some other right winger and not Shri Jaswant Singh… because Jaswant Singh has only respect and admiration for JLN even as he criticizes him for certain big mistakes… that we all must take account of.

  46. Rashid

    @dr jawwad khan:
    “pohnchi waheen pay khak jahan ka khameer tha”

    Dr sahib,
    If you allow those who disagree with you on KHS blog, i would give there all the replies and then leave it up to the readers to decide. Who makes sense.
    Latest example: You again OUT OF CONTEXT and MISQUOTED Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. I posted my reply and blog filter says:
    Rashid, on October 20th, 2009 at 8:01 am Said: Your comment is awaiting

    ‘mein kiray paasay jawan mein munji kithay dawaan’

  47. bonobashi

    @YLH

    I hope so too, that Gorki is not alluding to Jaswant Singh, because I thought JS handled his text with some grace (leaving aside my serious reservations about his language and orthography).

    I rather suspect Gorki is referring to some dreadful specimens that have crawled on board recently, and refuse to return to whichever foul pit they emerged from. These are Indian specimens, as his reference shows; we will happily leave the others to you.

    Your formulation at the end of your first post was excellent. Indeed, that is the order of battle, if you substitute ‘secular democrat of principle, willing to stand up and be counted’ instead of the unhappily worded ‘little fish like YLH’.

    The trolls will continue to play an auxiliary role. It is not clear whether submitting to their tortured logic and non-existent facts (or opinions playing a walk-on role as facts) is worse, or engaging them in attempted discussion, Gorki-style, is worse.

  48. Jay

    The following is a re-post from:
    http://kashifiat.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/an-open-letter-to-obama-urdu/#comment-712

    —————————–

    @ Yasser:
    Very well said – “Also thanks for informing me that I am a Qadiani. I was blissfully ignorant of my own faith”

    These guys know it all. They can read human mind and its faith. This kind of phenomenon in mental health is called “Ideas of Reference” which is a classical sign of Schizophrenia and reflects a “formal thought disorder”.

    I still do not get this Qadiani phobia. Every personal and institutional failure is blamed on some Qadiani thing. Every opponent is smeared as Qadiani. This takes us into another realm of Schizophrenia which is by definition “loss of reality”.

    Through out this site, one sooner or later stumbles on some Qadiani delusions. Delusion is by definition “false fixed belief” which is not amenable to discussion and is also a characteristic of Schizophrenia.

    When more than one person living in close proximity share same psychosis, such a psychosis is called “folie a deux”

    Either it is all mass-hysteria or shared psychosis. Lord know better.

    Am I missing something?

  49. dr jawwad khan

    @rashid!

    you can post your response here!
    and allow me to produce the tons of refrences from “your” books.

  50. The problem with right wing blogs is that they will censor anything that can not be answered by them. So many of my comments have been held at their blogs that I don’t visit them anymore.

    Yasser sahib, although I know that you mean well and I agree with many of your views and sentiments, but in an attempt to distance yourself from Ahmadiyya community, you have compared Maudoodi and the founder of the Ahmadiyya community as being the same. Without going into the details of their teachings, may I ask you to review your stance here. Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib gave rise to a community which has done nothing but serve Pakistan. A tiny minority has given this country an outstanding statesman who reigned over the diplomatic world for decades, a Nobel laureate, who is almost worshiped by the scientific community world-wide, a civil servant and economist who gave this country its first and only surplus budget, atleast three Generals in the army who practically saved Pakistan, the best poet after Faiz to name a few. How can this community be compared to a bunch of thugs and rascals who have desroyed Pakistan. It is my belief that Pakistan still stands, despite the intrigues of these mullahs because of the prayers and good works done by the Ahmadiyya community. You may disagree with this, but kindly note that I deeply resent your comparison.

  51. D_A_N

    @YLH…

    ‘but India + Pakistan v. uncivilization … JLN+ MAJ + MKG + little fish like YLH Versus Mullahism, chauvinism, religious fascism.’

    the ORBAT could not have been laid out more clearly…Extremely well put sir.

  52. Rashid

    @dr jawwad khan:
    “you can post your response here!”

    I can very easily reply you here, but this is not the forum. YLH and RR won’t allow it. And i don’t blame them. They are not blogging what you and likes of you KHS blog.
    Please let me post on Kashafiat. Thanks.

  53. Rashid

    @Lutf:

    You Qadiani Jamaat members can NOT take credit for producing scientist, international affairs expert, economist and military generals. Because Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani sahib did NOT teach Theoretical Physics, International Relations, Economics and Military Warfare. Otherwise Jews, Christians, and Hindus have won more Nobel prizes and have produced more experts in international affairs, economics and military tacticians.

    [EDITED for being off-topic, purely ecclesiastical claims and counter-claims in a SECTARIAN/RELIGIOUS FEUD. Take it to a blog that is into such competitive proselytizing. – PTH]

  54. [EDITED.. for exactly the same reason as above]

  55. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Lutf,

    I meant purely in terms of my neutrality towards religious views…

    There is no question that Jamaat Ahmaddiya has always served Pakistan with distinction… and there is no question that Jamaat-e-Islami has always stabbed Pakistan in the back.

  56. yasserlatifhamdani

    Huge Blast in Islamic International University … horrible carnage.

    I hope the eloquent young woman from that University who spoke in favor of the Taliban and won the declamation contest in UET Taxila I was judge at survived.

  57. Majumdar

    Yasser/Gorki/Bono et al,

    What is the status of a Hindoo rightwinger who abuses JLN/MKG day in and day out but loves our beloved Qaid (pbuh) and stands for strict separation of Church and State and equality of all citizens in front of law? Is he reckoned to be pro-civilisation or anti-civilisation.

    Anxiously waiting for your answer.

    Regards

  58. bonobashi

    @Majumdar

    Speaking entirely for myself – I am not an authority, nor wish to be – such a person is a highly civilised Indian not in line with the standard Indian line. I may not agree with such a person, but will relish his inputs provided he is using facts or logic.

    Who is this pro-civilisation paragon you have discovered? Can you get him to write?😉

  59. Hayyer

    Majumdar:
    I think there is a five letter word starting with f and ending in k.

  60. bonobashi

    @Majumdar

    Dada:

    I hasten to avert doom and destruction, and to clarify: there is no other word that dear Hayyer Sir could have meant, other than ‘frank’.

    Please do not speculate unnecessarily, therefore, and cause distress to all of us admirers who are so mightily influenced by your fr**k views. Without them, the Sun would pale in the sky, the Moon would lose her glow, the Stars themselves would stop writing for PTH, as they have started to do.

  61. PMA

    Gorki (October 20, 2009 at 9:54 am):

    “How can you talk so well about freedom and justice, fairness and brotherhood and yet continue to rail against a sect of Muslims the Quadianis?”

    Dear Gorki: Since you are neither a Muslim nor a Pakistani, allow me to explain the Qadiani question in Pakistani and Muslim context. Within Pakistani society, in general, there is no Qadiani vs. non-Qadiani problem. I will go to the extent that in every day life there is no Muslim vs. non-Muslim problem in Pakistan. In their every day lives there is not much difference between various sects of Muslims of Pakistan. The problem lies within the clerics of various sects. Since Ahmadiyya clerics and non-Ahmadiyya clerics are both competing over the same turf, the problem is between the clerics. Particularly upset are the non-Ahmadiyya clerics since Ahmadiyya clerics bite into and chip away from the non-Ahmadiyya flock. It is the turf war among clerics. Unfortunately some followers carry the message of their preachers too far and that is where the two groups confront. Ahmadiyyans consider themselves as Muslims. Most Muslims don’t care about that one way or the other. Non-Ahmadiyya clerics and their close followers consider Ahmadiyyans non-Muslims. That is when the fight starts.

  62. Hayyer

    Bonobashi:
    Well, fr**k and/or fr**k, certainly unique. Anything that declines to fit categories must be so. Let us say maverick instead.
    Majumdar:
    Just kidding as they say. I should have appended a smiley. Thats what the damn things are for.

  63. Hayyer

    Gorki:
    If I may interject, and into matters over which I have little expertise.
    As PMA said it is a turf war. Ahmadiyya does not translate into secular liberal, and the Qadianias are themselves divided into two categories.
    Ahmadiyya preachers have their own proselytising movement. It was, till the 70s the fastest growing branch of Muslims (or non Muslims if you prefer). I remember reading that the larger body of converts to Islam (or non Islam) especially in Africa, but also elsewhere in Europe and the US were at one stage, to the Ahmadiyya sect. They were also trying to convert conventional Sunnis to the Ahmadiyya belief. That would be intolerable to a Sunni cleric.
    You must be aware of the Dera politics in Indian Punjab and the violent reaction of the Akalis to them. The Dera Heads are trying to create their own flocks and they necessarily poach upon an existing body of faithful. The Ahmadiyyas were doing something similar.

  64. Bloody Civilian

    majumdar

    you’ve done quite well praticing your freedom at letting no one but yourself describe you. afaik, you’ve done unto others.. the same. this sudden and rather uncharacteristic need for others to describe you or label you is a bit curious.

    for what it’s worth, for the kind of ‘civilisation’ you and the rest of us are talking about, is any of it even relevant except that you stand for strict separation of Church and State and equality of all citizens in front of law?

  65. PMA

    Hayyer (October 20, 2009 at 7:45 pm):

    Many here at PTH often talk about ‘mullah’. And I often wonder which mullah they are talking about! Sunni? Shia? Ahmadiyya? Which one? And then there are sub-sects and sub-sub-sects within each sect. I have seen ‘wars’ even among mullahs of a given sect. I tell you, it is jungle out there!

  66. Gorki

    Majumdar Da:

    The lawyers on the forum can perhaps explain this concept in better words but I remember my late father, (a law graduate himself, explaining to me in a sort of a self serving way😉 ) the need for lawyers by saying that all that stands between civilization and anarchy is the rule of law.

    As long as rule of law is respected and observed, (and an inclusive constitution is in place) the left and the right of the political spectrum are both essential for a free society.

    I admire Nehru in large part because the visionary in him understood this fact well (although the human in him sometimes got in the way😉 )

    You Sir, with your keen analytic skills and a sharp pen are an asset to any forum or group you belong to. I may not sometimes agree with you but always respect your opinion.

    Regards.

  67. Hayyer

    BC:
    “this sudden and rather uncharacteristic need for others to describe you or label you is a bit curious.”
    Not at all. Majumdar was asking for it. Leading with his chin as they say in the US, and it would have been a shame to let the opportunity pass.

  68. kashifiat

    English Translation of letter.
    Thank You very much Adnan for your nice effort

    For American President Obama:

    Barack Obama Sahib: Congratulations on winning the Nobel Peace Prize. It was rather a surprise for us to hear of your Nobel Peace Prize win. Not only us, everyone else either went stunned, or laughed or just gave this event a sarcastic smile. Even you were probably not as happy to win the prize as the Pak Tea House’s Qadiani supporter Mr. Yasser Latif Hamdani. This gentleman declares himself as the spokesman for the liberal thought. He congratulated you and wished you the very best. He did declare his hope that you will give much attention towards the Kashmir issue and will look to get it satisfactorily resolved. Well, nothing changes when monkeys jump around or crows caw, therefore we shall let them do what they want to do.

    Respected Mr. President: you are the fourth American President who has won the peace award. It is quite interesting that when you were nominated (February 1), your presidency was barely two weeks old. Apart from your first oath taking speech, we do not see any notable words from you. But we are being told that you have been given this prize for some peace initiatives. Right now we are only hearing words from you but not seeing any action. We request you to stop weaving words and start taking practical steps now.

    Mr. President: You had declared to shut down the torture chambers of Guantanamo Bay, where prisoners are 100% Muslims. Everyone knows that these prisoners are subjected to inhuman torture. These prisoners are subjected to innovative torture techniques. Right after you took oath to the office, you signed this declaration. Yet we see no signs that this prison will be closed any time soon.

    Respected Mr. President: You had vowed in your election campaign that you will withdraw the US forces from Iraq. But it seems like your forces are stuck in a quicksand there and it is no longer possible for them to honourably withdraw from Iraq. Fallujah and Najaf are rocked by bomb blasts and mass murder; Muslim blood flows cheaply but your silence is akin to semi-acceptance of this situation.

    Mr. Obama: You had declared your seriousness in solving the Palestine issue, yet every word in your speeches is to the glee of Israel. In reality, your Middle East Special Envoy Mr. George Mitchell has been to the Middle East quite a few times. But he has been able to achieve nothing due to the obstinate behaviour of Israel and American Jewish lobby. We cannot forget Mr. President that when Israeli inhuman soldiers attack besieged Palestinians, their women and children like hungry dogs, you utter not a single word to condemn the act. Maybe you are afraid of those American Jews who had financed your presidential campaign.

    Mr. President: Muslims across the world notice that you collect sold goods in Sharm-Assheikh (????) and then try to achieve results to Israeli liking; exactly against the Palestinian wishes. Please tell us how can peace be achieved under these conditions.

    Respected President: We are noticing the increased activity of US in Afghanistan and Pakistan. You have sent 21,000 more troops in Afghanistan. Your army chiefs are calling for 40,000 further troops. Your army chiefs openly admit that 70% of Afghanistan is now controlled by Taliban. The same Taliban who have no modern weapons, tanks, jet planes, guns, armoured vehicles, night vision technology, radars or computers. Taliban just possess the drive based upon their faith, which you do not have. Your homosexual army can do nothing to them. You declare “Pakistan first”; the US Embassy in Islamabad incurs the most expenditure among all the American embassies around the world. 1000 US marines are present and now you are sending Blackwater here as well. The Afghan elections that were held under the management of your army were so pathetic that even United Nations had to call them a fraud. Your drone planes fly around and distribute death across Pakistan. These drones kill people who are terrorists according to you and common people or Madrassah students according to our knowledge. Pakistani masses are well aware of your special representative Richard Holbrooke and how he interferes in our affairs like a Viceroy and look for people to represent US interests in Pakistan. Our honourable masses have rejected the Kerry-Luger Bill. Since you have come to power, we have only seen hatred against you and America among Pakistani masses. We are the front line state in your war against terrorism; yet our army jawans are martyred in this war. We are facing suicide bombs on a daily basis, yet you and your administration never fail to yell “Do More” at us. Now Southern Punjab and Baluchistan seem to be getting in your crosshairs of your drone attacks, just like Waziristan. People fail to understand what kind of peace is that. People in this area think the peace award is rather a practical joke. But since you have now received it, we hope you will at least try to do something about it to respect the peace award.

    Mr. Obama: Everyone considers it an important event when American missiles are removed from the Eastern Europe. But everyone keeps ignoring the real reasons behind your step; you are trying to please Russia so that it won’t provide or help Iran the nuclear technology. People wonder whether you want Israeli nuclear program to end as badly as you want Iranian nuclear program to end. Please inspect the Israeli nuclear facilities. This is your two faced policy, and still you wonder why Muslims are unhappy.

    Your two faced policy becomes clearer with your pro-India policy as well. You keep signing treaties to further Indian nuclear program, while put sanctions on Pakistani nuclear program. We all see made up allegations about Dr. Abdul Qadeer nuclear network. Don’t you think people will not react negatively? Also, do tell what to make of your complete silence on the Kashmir issue.

    Respected President: Your speeches are quite famous, which is the reason why Nobel Committee gave this award to you by declaring that you have brought the US/Europe closer to the Muslim World. But observers of your words know that you simply weave the words very well. (A couplet from Munir Niazi is then given).

    Mr. President: In one of your recent speeches, you threatened to destroy the opponents of US interests in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Algeria and Yemen. Janaab, we must analyze why US interests are in danger in these areas, and also what will be the effect of your open threats?

    Mr. President: After winning this Nobel Peace Prize, that you never should have won, your responsibilities have increased manifold. But we know it quite well that all Nobel prizes are centered around the US and Jewish interests, even if they are given to Muslim names like Anwar Sadaat, Yasir Arafat or Al-Baradei. Or even if it is the Nobel prize for Dr. Abul Salaam. They are all part of Jewish interests. There are only very few exceptions like Mother Teresa, otherwise all prizes are means to fulfill American objectives. Even the Literature prize is given to the rebels of the anti-US governments; for example Russians, or Tibetan Dalai Lama or Iranian woman journalist. If you are serious about peace in your nation and the nations of the world, then withdraw your troops from the invaded nations. It is in your nation’s interest so that you see less and less of body bags. Otherwise, be prepared for history to make fun of you.

    Regards,

    A Pakistani Muslim

  69. Rashid

    @Lutf:

    [EDITED for descending into a sectarian conflict]

    Very funny when you say “And again your superstitious minds will lead you to the conclusion that they are a part of a zionist conspiracy to control Pakistan.”
    Still you think YOUR THINKING IS DIFFERENT THAN KHS???
    Mullas are ALL THE SAME, whether in Jamaat-I-Islami or Qadiani Jamaat.

  70. kashifiat

    Sorry its wrongly posted here, AWZ pls delete it & this comment also

    Thanks in advance

  71. Archaeo

    @Kashifiat

    There is nothing in your piece in which anyone can take exception to, save only your reference to Yasser Latif Hamdani and PakTeaHouse. It was clear from his passage that he sought to be ironic, more than that, sarcastic. However it looked to you, the intention clearly was quite biting in its criticism, and had no element of praise in it, except mocking praise.

    To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I regret very much to have to point out to your respected self that your effort at nailing Hamdani merely led to some self-inflicted injuries.

    Do please reconsider your position.

  72. Gorki

    PMA Sahib:

    “Within Pakistani society, in general, there is no Qadiani vs. non-Qadiani problem”

    Thanks for the post. I had kind of guessed as much. What does not fail to amaze me how much humanity lies amongst ordinary men and women of all nations of the World yet how capable of remorseless cruelty the so called elite can be once they convince themselves that they are on a mission.

    Thus I think the Dr. Jawwad Khans of today truely believe they are doing God’s work by inciting people against an another sect, just like the inquisitors; and the Nazi Dr. Goebbels believed, in another era.

    Regards.

  73. dr jawwad khan

    What does not fail to amaze me how much humanity lies amongst ordinary men and women of all nations of the World yet how capable of remorseless cruelty the so called elite can be once they convince themselves that they are on a mission.
    ___________________________

    humanity?
    ordinary man?
    all nationans?
    sounds beutiful words but within these words there is hidden some extremely disgusting, sick and cruel master plan. A plan for global dominance,wars ,corruption, deviation from the own principals and endless conspiracies.i wish things could be that simple.
    line has been drawn and battle has been begun.
    the question is on which side of the line you are.
    from the other side of the line i see the beautiful words like sanctity of human life,freedom,justice and democrcy and equally uglier hypocricy and sick mentality.
    this strange mindset i couldn’t understand.
    -talk about islamic terrorism but do not talk about the war and injustice which gave birth to this terrorism.
    -talk about those who killed few hundred but do not talk about those who killed millions of people.
    -talk about hatred but do not talk about hypocricy and injustice.
    -talk about reaction but do not talk about the action.

  74. kashifiat

    Dr Sb. Zabardast🙂 Well composed thoughts

  75. Zia Ahmad

    Maybe we need more than one pair of kneecaps here and some privacy if possible.

  76. YLH

    I frankly can’t understand how someone can be as dishonest, crooked and undignified as Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui.

    I can’t believe that he is now trying to prove that Dr. Salam was an average scientist. Meanwhile CERN has created the LHC which will in large part test the GUT …and also other things. No wonder Dr. Salam has been honored there as one of the main figures of Physics and they’ve named a boulevard leading to the CERN after him.

    It is also forgotten that Dr. Salam is the father of Pakistan’s nuclear programme (though hardly a meritorious distinction for a man committed to using science for betterment of humanity)… But I only mention it because we celebrate smugglar like AQ Khan who had no real contribution to Pakistan’s nuclear programme… And who is a wanna be… But our foolish little freak from jamaat e Islami is questioning the brilliance of the man who always put Pakistan first.

    What next? They are probably not getting a chance but they would try and prove that Maududi founded Pakistan not Jinnah…

  77. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    A word of advice for you. You shud not take the Net (and what is posted on it) to heart. For one, I don’t take what is posted on it (incl by myself) very seriously at all.

    Regards

  78. YLH

    Majumdar,

    How can you say that? This crook misleads the illiterate and uneducated youth by creating this frenzy in what he claims is the second largest Urdu newspaper in Karachi.

    We are in midst of war and these are the fifth columnists. I tell you – untill and unless Mansoorah is not closed down, Pakistan will lose.

  79. take a break and enjoy🙂

  80. Mohsin Ansari, MD, FAAP

    MR. YLH

    Being an academic and a teacher of future doctors, I make my wits on the basis of concrete evidence, logic, rationality and research. What ever I saw in your writings are sheer emotions, negativity, venom and unfounded allegations without any evidence and rationality. You try to impress people with usage of phony and difficult English, but what ever you write is no more than rubbish and abhorrence. No wonder why you like Ghamadi and people like him. Who supported “The Zina Ordinanace” in Pakistan’s national assembly and who was a “Paid fatwa maker” for previous regime of MEER MUSHARRAF (The Theological Off spring of MEER SADIQ and MEER JAAFFAR).I do not know why you are writing all this filth and garbage against a renowned Islamic Scholar, may be another unsuccessful effort to “Pay Back’ Maulana Maudodi for writing ‘Khtam E Nabawwat” which lead to the exposure of your Qadyani friends???

    Mohsin Ansari, MD, FAAP.,
    V. Chairman Dept. of Pediatrics PRMC,
    Assisatant Professor
    University of Maryland School of Medicine

  81. Gorki

    humanity? ordinary man? all nationans? sounds beutiful words but within these words there is hidden some extremely disgusting, sick and cruel master plan. A plan for global dominance,wars ,corruption, deviation from the own principals and endless conspiracies.i wish things could be that simple.
    …………………………………………………………
    Dr. Jawwad Khan: Thank you for responding to my post, but your response is not specific enough. I can tell you where I have a problem with your position and you can tell me where you have with mine.

    1. You have mentioned here and earlier that you have problem with ALL Quadianis and their supporters. You have called the B***ds and similar names in the past. My problem is that how can you paint a whole community with a broad brush and then condemn them?

    2. How do you know for sure that there is not a single good man or woman in that community just like there are in yours?

    3. How is your position different than say a Zionist who feels the Palestinians have no right to live in Jerusalem just because they belong to another faith (and calls then dirty B**ds) but another Jew, from say Egypt or Russia has that right because in the Zionist’s reading of his holy book, ‘God wanted it that way’?

    4. Similarly how do you make a connection with my questioning your hatred for a people of another sect or faith, to assuming that I stand for anybody dominating you or your land?

    5. Do you only believe in a zero sum game (where people are always divided into two opposing sides) or do you understand that one can be capable of condemning bigotry among zealots like you and the Zionists at the same time; to oppose illegal wars by say USA and occupations like that of Israel even as I oppose Al Qaeda murderers?

    Regards.

  82. PMA

    Dear Dr. Mohsin Ansari,

    We, here at PTH are used to folks posting their comments under pseudonym, sometimes multiple ones. But I must say that you are the first person that has placed his comments under his full name, credentials and associations. We look for a healthy exchange of thoughts between Mr. Hamadani and yourself.

  83. Rashid

    @Mohsin Ansari:
    “I do not know why you are writing all this filth and garbage against a renowned Islamic Scholar, may be another unsuccessful effort to “Pay Back’ Maulana Maudodi for writing ‘Khtam E Nabawwat” which lead to the exposure of your Qadyani friends???”

    Dr Ansari,
    Being myself a Physician, I do what you appropriately said: “ I make my wits on the basis of concrete evidence, logic, rationality and research”.

    When I looked into matter of Ahmadis here I mean members of LAHORE AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT being declared “Kafir” in Pakistan National Assembly in 1974 where jury and bench (prosecution and judiciary) were ONE PARTY, and defence was NOT allowed to question prosecution. Proceedings of trail were held in secrecy i.e. IN-CAMERA, no media was, nothing was reported. To this day, that record is kept in secrecy. Unlike Justice Hamud Ur Rehman commission report on causes of defeat in 1971 war, which had national security issues has been made public; proceedings of 1974 trial of both Lahori-Ahmadis and Qadiani-Ahmadis is still secret after 35 years.

    But when we see the case of SAME Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement is heard in an IMPARTIAL court by an IMPARTIAL judge, Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members are ALWAYS judged as MUSLIMS. This has happened time and again. Of course these court cases were NOT heard in Pakistan. What does this tells you???
    FYI: Two of the most famous trial in which stalwarts of Jamat-I-Islami and other Pakistani religious scholars were involved, paid by Pakistani Tax Payers money, was even reported in PAKISTAN SUPREME COURT CASES, MARCH 1986.
    Practicing what you preach to Medical Students and Pediatrics Interns/Residents/Fellows look at following links, that also has scan pages of PSC 3/186, and then form your opinion, keeping Allah SWT as your witness to whom you will be sooner or later answerable:

    NOTE:
    I guess because of links provided in my comments to PSC 3/1986, my post is not getting through the blog filter. I will ask you to go to:
    www dot ahmadiyya dot org

    On home page click on:
    Ahmadiyya Movement
    And then click on:
    See Full Contents
    Under Section 5:
    Ahmadis are Muslims
    There you will be able to see at least 3 court cases.

  84. dr jawwad khan

    dr mohsin ansari sahib.
    double thumbs up!

  85. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Dr. Ansari,

    Could you kindly explain to me what part of shrill and abusive email may be regarded as rational or logical or unemotional?

    To keep the long story short you resorted to this abusive attack because you had no answer to the email I sent to Jamaat e Islami’s second in crook Meraj-ul-Huda Siddiqui.
    Frankly sir I would be very uncomfortable being treated by or operated on by any of the doctors trained by you. Besides Gorki sb or Rashid sb can correct me, but my own experience with my Brother in Law who heads up a very prestigious Medical programme on the East Coast not far from you and my first cousin who is part of another such programme – both graduates of Aga Khan University (yes the jewish-funded zionist Ismaili university in Karachi formed to corrupt us holy Pakistanis) is that real doctors don’t go about dropping their credentials at the drop of a hat to “appeal to authority”.

    Frankly an emotionally unstable and illogical Maududist like yourself should have a perpetual restraining order from coming into 500 feet of a hospital or a medical facility- you never know if that is a beer belly or something else.

    Good day to you.

  86. kashifiat

    Bhai PMA, it was your wish that

    ” We look for a healthy exchange of thoughts between Mr. Hamadani and yourself”

    But how a soft spoken educated person can exchange & expect any “healthy debate” with the mentali retarted, Maududi phobic, pseudo intellectual, shizophereanic person like YLH.

  87. Rashid

    @YLH:
    “Frankly sir I would be very uncomfortable being treated by or operated on by any of the doctors trained by you.”

    Don’t worry. You won’t need Dr. Ansari help. He is a Kidie Doc (Pediatrician). You have already crossed 18 years boundary.

    On the other hand i can help many on this forum who think everything is Qadiani conspiracy. I can help them with their delusions and help them recognize their ideas of reference. I am a Shrink (Psychiatrist).

  88. yasserlatifhamdani

    Kashifiat,

    One cannot have an honest discussion with Maududists.

    Perhaps you can ask the good doctor to stop sending me abusive emails first.

    Also have you decided to own up to the fact that you lied shamelessly in your article?

    Rashid sb,

    That he is in paeds is even more worrying.

    Maybe you can help out Kashifiat who seems to have taken all the slaps to heart.

  89. kashifiat

    Honesty & YLH

    Entierly two different things. There is no match.

    Shameless are those who can’t involve (because of lack of ability) in sophisticated & logical discussion with educated & humble persons like Dr. Ansari

    But Rashid basically YLH needs the tratment of OCD – Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

    Kindly help him

  90. AZW

    Kashif:

    I have only read you at your blog and your Urdu write ups that you publish across the Urdu press. I find you and your supporters a lot shallower, vindictive and outright hateful not just against Yasser, but with pretty much anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

    I translated your letter to show the pettiness that you showed against Dr. Abdul Salam, just because he was a Qadiani. In fact, the hatred that burns inside you and the JI sympathizers is quite disturbing, and shows quite clearly in the fires that burn in the country that has the misfortune of having citizens like yourself. The whole letter to President Obama was a rambling exercise in empty rhetoric, victim mentality yelling and curses for your opponents. Why you would mention Yasser in that letter to Mr. Obama is beyond me. I think it was either your deep antipathy to Yasser, or your lack of focus when writing an op-ed (shows the quality of the newspaper that publishes these kind of opinions) or both.

    Regarding Yasser, I have a good deal of respect for his intellect. He however has anger problems and his outright cursing and yelling at you, despite having good reasons, was not warranted. And his foul language was noted and condemned by many of us here. In my view, when he curses, he just goes down to the level shown by you and your group like the good doctor and the two more gentlemen named Talkhaba and Ummi. I am sure he will be a lot more effective and even more of a problem for you if he keeps the moral high ground.

    Any ways, to each his own. Have a good one.

    Adnan

  91. Gorki

    “…..exposure of your Qadyani friends???”

    Dr. Ansari:

    You certainly have impressive credentials and are an academic in a reputed University.
    I assume that you have been in the US for a while.

    Having lived there and enjoyed the benefits of a society which believes in the equality of all men(kind) how can you justify such contempt at another community?

    What would you tell a student of your who may say something like “exposure of your Black\Arabic\Asian\Latino friends…” ?

    Regards.

  92. dr jawwad khan

    how a soft spoken educated person can exchange & expect any “healthy debate” with the mentally retarted, Maududi phobic, pseudo intellectual, shizophereanic person like YLH?
    ________________________
    good question!

  93. dr jawwad khan

    where is my comments in response of AZW.

  94. Gorki

    Dear Dr. Ansari:

    I called the University of Maryland Medical Center and it seems they could not find you in the hospital faculty list.
    The operator told me that there was a pediatric physician by the same name in Salisbury Maryland and I found another one listed as a clinical instructor.
    Are you a full time faculty member in UMMC?
    If so perhaps you could ask the university to update their directory and include you in it?😉

    Regards.

    Regards.

  95. AZW

    Clinical instructor?

    Now that seems like an interesting development. Paging Dr. Ansari, please report back to Pak Tea House.

  96. Gorki

    In the US medical graduate training programs clinical instructorship is designation for trainee doctors who are not full faculty.
    (Sometimes nurses also are designated as such in university hospitals but it is less usual.)

    Thus almost all US trained doctors in practice (especially those who have completed a fellowship have by definition were instructors at some point so it does not hold any special importance.)
    I tried to do a quick literature search to look for some publications under this name (vice chairs usually have more than a hundred publications) and could not come out nothing much in pediatrics.

    Salisbury, Maryland, is a small town more than two hours drives away from Baltimore where the University of Maryland hospital is located.
    It is possible that Dr. Ansari, the pediatrician from Salisbury holds an honorary assistant professorship in the UMMC (which is available to most physicians in the communities) but is not a regular position and is a designation given to allow the doctor to do some voluntary instruction (typically one afternoon a month) in bigger hospitals.
    Since his practice is listed in Salisbury it is much more likely that he has regular privileges at the local community hospital which I believe does not have a resident doctor training program.

    Of course I can not rule out the possibility that there could be two Dr. Ansaris in the world, both practicing pediatrics, and both living in the vicinity of the UMMC.
    Also since I only spent about fifteen to twenty on research, I may have missed some stuff.

    Thus I am waiting anxiously for Dr. Ansari’s response to clear the mystery.😉

    Regards.

  97. Mohsin Ansari

    My single post generated a lot of discussion and questions and answers. Let me explain them one by one:
    I ended up to this list bz I was part of an e mail list where Mr. YLH wrote a very indecent e mail regarding Maulana Maudodi. I thought it was an uncalled attack on Maulana hence responded rather emotionally. Mr. YLH retorted even more irrationally and suggested to read his article on this site of “Pak tea House”. Here I a saw more of his lopsided and unbalanced posts. Hence I voiced my opinion here also!
    PMA wrote:

    We, here at PTH are used to folks posting their comments under pseudonym, sometimes multiple ones. But I must say that you are the first person that has placed his comments under his full name, credentials and associations.

    You can probably tell by my post that I am not a professional or regular blog or e mail list writer, hence was not aware of the guidelines of ur list. If I made a mistake in giving my name and credentials. (which I will prove later) than I am sorry for not following the guidelines of this list.

    Gorki wrote

    I assume that you have been in the US for a while. Having lived there and enjoyed the benefits of a society which believes in the equality of all men (kind) how can you justify such contempt at another community? What would you tell a student of your who may say something like “exposure of your Black\Arabic\Asian\Latino friends…”
    My post was a response to an embellished, irrational, hard worded and abusive e mail. There are tens and thousands of people all around the world including professors @ John Hopkins, Yale and Harvard who respect Syed Maudodi as an academic, honest human being and a true leader. Many of them consider him as respected as their own father. If you use the language which MR. YLH used against somebody’s father, it ought to generate an emotional response, which may be poignant and forceful too. Hence saying that JI people or followers of Syed maudodi do not have tolerance does not sound right. If somebody starts bashing your ideals, you will respond and will respond forcefully.

    Gorki wrote :

    Salisbury, Maryland, is a small town more than two hours drives away from Baltimore where the University of Maryland hospital is located.
    It is possible that Dr. Ansari, the pediatrician from Salisbury holds an honorary assistant professorship in the UMMC (which is available to most physicians in the communities) but is not a regular position and is a designation given to allow the doctor to do some voluntary instruction (typically one afternoon a month) in bigger hospitals.

    First of all I want to commend you for your inquisitive approach and also for being capable to use all the resources. You are right in many conclusions but are not aware of others. First of all I am not only a Board certified Pediatrician rather a Neonatologist also. I was trained in one of the ten best pediatrics programs in the country. I not only did my residency and fellow ship rather was also the ”Chief Resident” of that program. Yes I am in Salisbury Maryland, it is a beautiful town in Ocean City area which is one of the biggest resorts on Eastern Shore of Maryland’s and attracts more than 3 million tourists every year.

    I am faculty and teacher for medical students of University of Maryland. It is called AHEC program where community pediatricians help the University for training their residents and medical students. Yes I do have several publications under my name you can either Google it put it under Pub Med and will get all my publications.

    I must say one thing that I do not have either the time and aptitude to be part of listings like this, hence I might not write any more on this list. But nevertheless it was good to see some talented individuals, and any if one you coming this way, I will be more than happy to be your host in this resort town. But would suggest that posts which are indecent , irrational, and baseless and foul worded should be discouraged rather than being

  98. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Dr. Ansari,

    There was nothing irrational or indecent about my email to Merajul Huda Siddiqui.

    Now that you have lied about our correspondence I’ll reproduce our correspondence in full to let people decide.

    Yours sincerely,

    YLH

  99. Gorki

    Dear Dr. Ansari:

    Thanks for the response and for clearing up several issues. Your response was gracious; especially the open invitiation to all to visit your lovely town.
    I am sure you are an excellent physician and the effort you make in volunteering to teach medical students (in spite of being in practice) is appreciated by your community.

    When we come from far off lands to make America home, we all come as ambassadors of our countries and our cultures and you therefore make Pakistanis (and other South Asians) proud of you.

    However the converse it true too. Thus when we interact with our own people back home, then we become ambassadors of American values as well. If there is one value that America teaches, it is tolerence and that hatred of any community is shear bigotry, borne out of ignorance and narrowmindedness.

    You may have had a problem with YLH’s views or his language but attacking an entire community (the Quadianis) does not reflect the values of your adopted homeland.

    You seem like a reasonable gentleman (most pediatricians I know are likeable people.)
    I hope you can pass of some of the values of you profession and your land (such as tolerance of another’s faith) to Dr. Jawwad Khan and Kashiafat.

    With best wishes.

  100. yasserlatifhamdani

    (This was in response to an email sent out by Dr. Meraj-ul-Huda Siddiqui which was an intemperate and abusive attack on our Ambassador in Washington the embattled Hussain Haqqani for doing his job… in which he accused Hussain Haqqani of being a US Stooge… now without going into the merits of that statement, suffice to say Jamaat-e-Islami- which was funded by the US – has no locus standi making such claims)

    Dear Mr. Siddiqui,

    With all due respect I think you and your party – Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat- are a bunch of crooks, cranks and madmen. One may remind you of your party’s nefarious role against Quaid-e-Azam and the Muslim League or the role you played against the Kashmiri freedom struggle in 1948 but that is irrelevant at the moment (except that Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat now wants to destroy Pakistan – just like it perpetuated the worse kind of attrocities in East Pakistan under the name “Al Badr”)

    Not only that but you are quislings responsible for Pakistan’s current turmoil. May I remind you that you have also been United States’ tool. CIA had a Jamaat-e-Islami desk from 1944 onwards which controlled and funded your activities during the Cold War. This frankly is an historical truth no one in Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat can ever deny.

    Your party also gave complete support to General Zia and the Americans in 1980s on terms far worse than the Kerry Lugar Bill. The truth is that you prefer dictators of your own choice and support the US when the US supports you. It is time to repent. Disband the Jamaat-e-Islami. And stop backstabbing Pakistan and Islam the way you in the Fitna-e-Maududiat have been doing for over 80 years now.

    Therefore I humbly request that you kindly take me off your list because I do not wish to be associated with crooks, cranks, terrorists and madmen like yourself.

    Yours sincerely,

    YLH

    In response to this Dr. Ansari sent me this email countless times:

    Mr.Yasir Latif Hamdani,

    Shallow thinking, narrow mindedness or just phony and offensive usage of vocabulary, this summarizes you and your email. Yes, you ought to be removed from this list. What ever you said about Maulana Maudodi and his organization does not worth anything. People like you are found in many societies where they live and thrive to defame and criticize historical giants like Syed Maudodi. But you represent a mere minority. Your insensible and narrow mindedness will not change the truth. Which stands that Syed Maudodi is the writer of the translation of Quran, read and quoted more than any other Translation of Quran of current times. Syed Maudidi is the hero and role model who changed the life of not thousands rather millions of youth of Islamic world. Living in USA I witness it day and night that where ever and whenever there is an effort for the betterment of Islamic community, there is always somebody inspired by Syed Maudodi behind the scene running the show. I would request Mr. Meraj to kick you out of this email list, so this can become a list free of uncouth, free of ignorance, free of narrow mindedness and free of crooks!!!

    To which I responded:

    Dear Mr. Ansari,

    No. In my view Maulana Maududi was a terrorist and an enemy of Pakistan.

    Thank you for your email.

    Yours sincerely,

    Yasser Latif Hamdani

    In response another Maududist jumped in with:

    Dear Dr. Mohsin Ansari
    AoA
    Attached is an article by Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui published on 19-10-2009 in a daily newspaper of Karachi. Please read the first paragraph in which Kahif Hafeez is giving an introduction of this man “Yassir Hamdani”.

    Regards

    To this I responded:

    Dear All,

    Corrupt regimes? Mr. Maududi himself pimped his little experiment in control freakery to the highest bidder. Mr. Maududi is the father of Corruption- moral, mental, educational and social- in Pakistan.

    I have a lot of respect for Mr. Khalid Zaheer who is a very well intentioned gentleman and I tend to agree with 99 percent of what he has to say in terms of religion. Indeed if there is any redeeming grace for Pakistan’s religious class, it is gentlemen like Mr. Khalid Zaheer and Mr. Javed Ahmed Ghamidi.

    I am also aware of the fact that the Islahi faction emerged out of the Jamaat-e-Islami but I am afraid I don’t see any redeeming qualities in Maulana Maududi who has brought nothing but disgrace to Pakistan. The egg that Maududi laid has hatched and the result is for all to see in Islamic International University.

    In the process we have all but destroyed Jinnah’s Pakistan and condemned Pakistan to the wrong side of history.

    So I ask you all to cry halt and bring this nonsense to an end now.

    Yours sincerely,

    YLH
    PS: Someone mentioned Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui’s little article. Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui is a Maududist and therefore confirmed liar. I responded to this article here: https://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/the-dishonest-crooks-of-our-urdu-press

    My blogpost about President Obama’s Nobel Speech Prize win was incredibly sarcastic which either someone completely foolish or a confirmed liar could miss. In case of the members of Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat, I’d say it is certainly the latter.

    Dr. Ansari responded with:

    Being an academic and a teacher of future doctors, I make my wits on the basis of concrete evidence, logic, rationality and research. What ever I saw in your writings are sheer emotions, negativity, venom and unfounded allegations without any evidence and rationality. You try to impress people with usage of phony and difficult English, but what ever you write is no more than rubbish and abhorrence. No wonder why you like Ghamadi and people like him. Who supported “The Zina Ordinanace” in Pakistan’s national assembly and who was a “Paid fatwa maker” for previous regime of MEER MUSHARRAF (The Theological Off spring of MEER SADIQ and MEER JAAFFAR).I do not know why you are writing all this filth and garbage against a renowned Islamic Scholar, may be another unsuccessful effort to “Pay Back’ Maulana Maudodi for writing ‘Khtam E Nabawwat” which lead to the exposure of your Qadyani friends???

    Mohsin Ansari, MD, FAAP.,
    V. Chairman Dept. of Pediatrics PRMC,
    Assisatant Professor
    University of Maryland School of Medicine

    I then responded with:

    Dear Sir,

    You have the right to your own views as I do mine. I am not sure why you are resorting to personal attacks or trying impress upon me that you are a doctor. Does that have any particular significance in this debate ?

    Frankly what you’ve written is completely irrational, illogical and nonsensical. Had you any counter-argument you would not have resorted
    to personal attacks. I would certainly be very uncomfortable in any ER or medical consultancy where a doctor trained by you is to be found
    given that you are mentally and emotionally unstable.

    And I apologize if you find plain English language hard to digest.

    I have made some assertions which are in my view facts of history. If you can disprove them logically I am willing to listen but frankly your typical mullah-style illogical ranting (quite possibly the result of your unnatural fascination with Mr. Maududi).

    May I suggest that if you can’t argue like a civilized human being – a tough ask for any Maududist- then you kindly refrain from shooting
    another such intemperate response.

    Yours sincerely,

    Y.L. Hamdani

  101. Rashid

    @ Mohsin Ansari
    I question Dr. Mohsin Ansari Judgment

    Mohsin writes:
    “There are tens and thousands of people all around the world including professors @ John Hopkins, Yale and Harvard who respect Syed Maudodi as an academic, honest human being and a true leader.”

    Mohsin, you probably know Maudodi wrote Qadiani Masla (Qadiani Problem). This book tries to “prove” Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (MGA) sahib was NOT a Muslim. To support his points he quotes and provides references. Here comes out in open ACADEMIC DISHONESTY, PERSONAL DISHONESTY, LIES AND CUNNINGNESS of Maudodi. NONE of quotes Maudodi gave are by MGA. Maudodi quoted OTHERS to prove MGA “wrong” and “false”. All quotes that Maudodi provides are from SECONDARY SOURCES. Maudodi has OBVIOUSLY NOT read MGA, and he had audacity to write book against him. Mohsin thinks such person is “academic” “honest” human being and “true” leader. I question Mohsin’s judgment.

    Of course Mohsin very conveniently ignored commenting on my earlier post where I asked him a direct question. Here I repeat again:
    “But when we see the case of SAME Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement is heard in an IMPARTIAL court by an IMPARTIAL judge, Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members are ALWAYS judged as MUSLIMS. This has happened time and again. Of course these court cases were NOT heard in Pakistan. What does this tells you???”

    I look forward to Mohsin reply.

  102. Pingback: دیانت ‘ بدیانتی « تلخابہ

  103. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear all,

    Kindly refrain from making this a sectarian issue.

    The proposition is that Maulana Maududi was and his followers are crooks, cranks, madmen, terrorists, traitors and enemies of Pakistan.

    Please speak for and against…

  104. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Bad-diyanat bhai,

    Humein shikayat bad diyanati say hai… woh app nay maan li kay app bay shak hain.

  105. Majumdar

    Err one question about J-e-I and 1971. My impression was that JI and its then leader Mufti Mehmood (along with NAP) had opposed the army action. Maybe I have the wrong Mufti’s name and the wrong Jamaat faction. Can someone put facts right?

    Regards

  106. yasserlatifhamdani

    Different Mullah group…

    Mufti Mahmood was from Jamiat-e-Ulema Hind and a strident opponent of the Pakistan Movement like Jamaat-e-Islami. He joined the Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam in 1949 and drove out the Usmani/Thanvi faction by 1956.

    His Jamiat e Ulema Islam also got divided in 1980s… into Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam Sami ul Haq and Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam Fazlurahman (Mufti’s son)

    Mufti, unlike Maududi, atleast was consistent with his pre-1947 role. On East Pakistan’s loss, he declared about Pakistan “thank god we were not part of the sin of making it”.

  107. Majumdar

    Yasser,

    Thanks. These Jamaat factions are as confusing as the Janata Party factions.

    Regards

  108. Jay

    Maudoudi Sahib – intellectual sampler:
    ————————————————–
    A very senior civil law expert (now deceased) quoted me an incidence. In early days of Zia ul Haq, when he was trying to create a theological state and introduce so called Islamic Justice System, Mr. Maudoudi addressed the Supreme Court Bar Association and lectured them on Islamic Justice. (In those days, Supreme Court used to be temporarily housed in East Pakistan House, Rawalpindi Saddar)

    This lawyer, posed Mr. Maudoudi a theoretical scenario:

    Suppose a case is reported to police that Mr. X killed Mr. Y and drowned his dead body in river. There are A, B, C eye witnesses to the whole scene. How will Islamic Justice handle such a situation?

    Mr. Maudoudi replied: Simply take the statements of A, B and C under oath. If proven, hang X. This reduces court time and cost and dispenses with early community based justice.

    Then this lawyer extended the scenario: Three months later, the victim Y, just walk into community life. Now you have already hanged Mr. X, while Y is still living.

    Mr Moudoudi had no answer, but only embarrassment.

    The said lawyer then explained to Mr. Moudoudi that any honest and fair system is Islamic System. Under British Torts, a murder case cannot be registered, unless dead body is found first.

    This narrative goes a long way to explain the intellectual level of Mr. Moudoudi and his self claimed authority on different matters. Such kind of superficiality and backwardness is also reflected in his translation of the Quran.

    I declare under oath, that the above story as narrated to me is true to best of my recall.

  109. yasserlatifhamdani

    The said lawyer then explained to Mr. Moudoudi that any honest and fair system is Islamic System. Under British Torts, a murder case cannot be registered, unless dead body is found first.

    Precisely. This is something Mr. Jinnah also tried to explain to Maududi and his kind… but without much luck.

  110. dr jawwad khan

    A very senior civil law expert (now deceased) quoted me an incidence. In early days of Zia ul Haq, when he was trying to create a theological state and introduce so called Islamic Justice System, Mr. Maudoudi addressed the Supreme Court Bar Association and lectured them on Islamic Justice. (In those days, Supreme Court used to be temporarily housed in East Pakistan House, Rawalpindi Saddar)
    ___________________________

    this is the most ridiculous story i have ever heard against molana syed abul aala modudi…
    kindly present some documented evidence or refrences from the book,like we have tons of evidence against mirza ghulam ahmed qadiyani.

  111. dr jawwad khan

    I declare under oath, that the above story as narrated to me is true to best of my recall.
    _____________________________

    1) once a guy asked molana modudi about his credentials and the name of school(madrisa) from which he(molana modudi) got his education.
    molana modudi said, ” my work is not secret rather printed.any one can read and analyse what i have read and how much i aborbed”
    great answer from the great person.

    2) an oath without evidence has no value.especially if it is related to the personality like Molana syed abul aala modudi.

    3) we need a body to justify the murder.remeber🙂

  112. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Quack Jawwad,

    2) an oath without evidence has no value.

    Really? Then what of the Hudood Laws that Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat advised on and had their favorite dictator impose on Pakistan?

    You guys keep changing goal posts… shame on you for being such a dishonest crook.

  113. Jay

    Actually it would be very interesting for all if fans of Mr. Maudoudi can give actual samples of his intellectual prowess and just not tall claims or blind fellowship.

    Please refrain from building your life and ideology on curses and insults. It is good for you, your faith and your society. Worship God, not humans.

  114. Jay

    The kind of thought that Mr. Maudoudi nurtured is reflected in quality of his followers.

    He was the first and the last who attempted to translate the Quran. Hardly anyone following his footstep rose to any significant intellectual or scientific significance. Most of them delved into polemic nit picking of theology, which is now transformed into more of a Greek mythology and have pushed Islam of Razi, Khwarzimi, Ibn-Nafees, Jabir Bin Hayyan, Abu-Rehaan Alberuni etc. into pre-Islamic Jeyhalla.

    The type of fruit reflects its source tree. See the contemporary contractors of religion in the Land of the Pure for yourselves. It shows. Please hold your noses.

  115. dr jawwad khan

    “Worship God, not humans”

    that is what we are asking….:)
    have a courage and come into the circle of islam.
    _______________________

    “Then what of the Hudood Laws that Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat advised on and had their favorite dictator impose on Pakistan?”

    do not ask me. Ask Allah(swt). it is written in Quran and no body can change it.
    ask Allah(swt) why He did not order for having a multi pixel digital cameras and handycam?
    what a brainless puppet “they” got.

  116. dr jawwad khan

    Hardly anyone following his footstep rose to any significant intellectual or scientific significance. Most of them delved into polemic nit picking of theology, which is now transformed into more of a Greek mythology and have pushed Islam of Razi, Khwarzimi, Ibn-Nafees, Jabir Bin Hayyan, Abu-Rehaan Alberuni etc. into pre-Islamic Jeyhalla.
    _____________________________🙂 hahahhahaaahha!
    bura na maniyay jay…par andar say aap bhi “bhai logon” ki tarah ganday hen.

  117. Jay

    “Worship God, not humans.” Be vociferous critics and just not blind followers. Be original thinkers. Do not be “yes men” to any ideology unless proven by reason.

    One of the basis of downfall of Muslims is that it became part of their culture to be “obedient” students and not to question their teacher. Thus they never progressed beyond their teacher. Jammat Islami is classical example. No one of any significance rose beyond Mr. Maudoudi, whose intellectual significance is questionable to begin with.

  118. dr jawwad khan

    No one of any significance rose beyond Mr. Maudoudi, whose intellectual significance is questionable to begin with.
    ____________________________
    now you started disoppointing me.
    just put the name of molana syed abul aala modudi.
    just tell me how many books of moulana modudi did you read?
    your views about molana modudi as a scholar tells me that you know nothing about him.

  119. Jay

    Another sample of Mr. Moudoudi’s intellect:
    ——————————————————–
    Child Molestation: It is not only permissible to give in marriage the girls who have not had their menstrual periods yet. Rather, it is also permissible for the husbands to have sexual intercourse with them. Now it is obvious that something that has been allowed by the Quran, no Muslim has the right to declare it forbidden. (Mullah Maududi, Tafhimul Quran 5:571).

    Did he marry ‘off’ his daughters or nieces at age 6 or 9?

  120. Jay

    THE MULLAH-IN-CHIEF OF THE 20TH CENTURY: MAUDUDI

    We will have to be brief about Maududi since he has written volumes upon volumes of nonsense. But a few glimpses should sufficiently demonstrate how the Mullah is playing god to his fans even after his death.

    His Name: Before presenting some glimpses of the famous Mullah Maududi’s wisdom and knowledge, let us reflect on his full name and title, Maulana Syed Abul A’la Maududi. The name translates as: “Our Master, Owner, the Father of the Most Glorious, Maududi”. It is strange that the man claiming to be a great Islamic scholar lived 76 odd years with this name. Does it need much insight to see that the very name is shrieking outright divinity and Shirk? According to the Quran, Maulana (our Master) is none but Allah (9:51). And, obviously, Al-A’la (the Most Glorious) can be none but God.

  121. dr jawwad khan

    is that all?🙂

  122. Jay

    The Captive Women: The summary and conclusion of his discussion on war captives:

    Even today, the government must distribute the women war captives among Muslim soldiers and the soldiers should “use” them. This rule will apply to women regardless of whether they belong to the People of the Book, or any other religion. [Vol 1 pg 340, Tafhimul Quran (Urdu), by Idara Tarjumanul Quran, Lahore, November, 1982.]

    How would the Mullahs feel if Muslims, getting thrashed all around the world today, had their women treated by the ‘infidels’ in this abominable fashion?

    ———–
    The purpose of such sampler posts is not to be-little or trample Maududi as a person, but only to critique his thought and school of thought that he nurtured.

  123. dr jawwad khan

    @jay!
    i was expecting more “evidences” against molana syed abul aala modudi…..
    come on man its easy….internet is full of these craps…just copy and paste here.

    ______________________________

    @ex muslim!
    i believe that this is some thing belongs to our genes. like some flies take nourishment only from flowers and some take it from the shit and all sort of filth.

  124. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dr. Jawwad Khan to Ex-Muslim:

    “i believe that this is some thing belongs to our genes. like some flies take nourishment only from flowers and some take it from the shit and all sort of filth.

    A rare moment of truth and self analysis.

  125. dr jawwad khan

    “A rare moment of truth and self analysis”

    No!!! its a persistant effort to show you the mirror.🙂

  126. Rashid

    Maudodi writes:
    “Even today, the government must distribute the women war captives among Muslim soldiers and the soldiers should “use” them. This rule will apply to women regardless of whether they belong to the People of the Book, or any other religion. [Vol 1 pg 340, Tafhimul Quran (Urdu), by Idara Tarjumanul Quran, Lahore, November, 1982.]”

    Thank God, US and UK occupation forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have not read Maudodi.

  127. Mohsin Ansari, MD, FAAP

    My Gosh! this thing is addictive, I decided not to write any more since it ruins my schedule in the office. But few observations:
    • Some how many Quadyanis and their supporters are regular writers in this list
    I personally feel that Quadyanis should get all the rights of a citizen in Pakistan. But the conflict starts when they try to portray themselves as Muslims and have shown intent to destroy the Islamic Identity of this country, of course and 100 times of course they cannot be regarded as Muslims.
    • Many writers on this list try to criticize, Syed Mauddodi, I have no problem any person at variance or criticizing Syed Maudodi, in essence Maulana himself in his books and lectures directed to his followers that it is absolutely “kosher” to differ and criticize him, as he was a human being and can mistakes.
    • The problem is that there are few people for whom the old saying hold so much true that “little knowledge is a dangerous thing”. All the postings written in this list criticizing Maulana are like jokes and so superficial that , they do not even worth mentioning(Like critisizing his name as Maulana, uproarious is isn’t it? There are at least one million or so Maulana’s and with that conclusion all of them are doing “Shirk”)
    • If you really want to criticize Syed Maudodi read some of his learned critiques and use their scholarly arguments instead of using this nonsense.
    I was such a big a fan of Syedi in Pakistan and I pray for his soul every day here in USA more than ever. And the reasons are numerous but few most imp ones:1) His translation of Quran one of the most read translation(Tafseer) of Quran in Islamic history is giving a chance to millions of Muslims to stay attached and understand our deen, I hardly see any Muslim household including Arabs without Tafheem Ul Quran, 2) As you all know Islam is the fastest growing religion in this part of the world, The few books which have been in fore front in achieving this vary accomplishment include “towards Understanding Islam by Syed Maudodi.
    In last I know I cannot change minds of many Qadyanis since there inroads towards creating a secular Pakistan was halted by Syed Maudodi, but just a message do not spit towards the moon it will………

  128. Archaeo

    1. It is not clear how an Ahmediya is found out by his or her English. Have you read King Solomon’s Mines? Just for the record, ‘smelling’ out witches is no longer accepted as good scientific practice; it has been superseded by a hot tawa.
    2. As an amateur of putting people to the Question, it is my observation that only one individual has defended himself and his confession. There have been many who have observed that they should be offered the same freedom to practice their faith as any other. I understand that for you and those of your way of thinking, this is a preposterous proposition. Life is hard.
    3. You may observe, on closer inspection, that one branch of the criticism of Maudoodi is largely on account of his dysfunctional views on the nature of Pakistan, a political matter, not a religious matter.
    4. Another branch is on account of the virulent and unprovoked hatred that his followers have displayed towards Qadianis. It is incorrect, but regrettably all too tempting, for those enraged by this kind of poisonous, envenomed attack to retaliate by a similar attack of the leader of the other cult. May I point out that staying out of this will add to the consequence of your arguments?

    For the record, I am not a Qadiani.

  129. Ameer e Jamaat Mr Munawwar Hasan has today in
    Samaa TV Programme “Qaum K Samne” declared that suicide Attacks are “Halal”

    Deen Dushman
    Watan Dushman
    as Well
    100 Yahudi
    1 Maududi….

  130. Gorki

    Dr. Ansari, MD:

    Is the following true?

    “It is not only permissible to give in marriage the girls who have not had their menstrual periods yet. Rather, it is also permissible for the husbands to have sexual intercourse with them. Now it is obvious that something that has been allowed by the Quran, no Muslim has the right to declare it forbidden. (Mullah Maududi, Tafhimul Quran 5:571).”

    1. If so how would you deal with a patient of yours if her family wanted to follow the literal interpretation of the above text?

    2. Also, I take you on your word when you wrote that you make your judgement from reason rather than faith or emotions (or words to that effect);
    OK good. Then do you condemn the campaign of hatred, intimidation and murder against them as a community? Specifically do you condemn the words on this forum that condemn all Quadianis as B**ds?

    3. ‘How many Quadianis on this forum…’
    Like Archaeo, I don’t know much about the sect itself but if it is a law abiding and peaceful sect, I don’t mind if you want to label me as one; I proudly stand by them.

    Regards.

  131. Zia Ahmad

    Suicide attacks in Pakistan are Halal?
    The other day when Lahore was attacked, Maududi’s deputy was urging to negotiate with the attackers as if Swat never happened. Almost makes you want to get them in line with Taliban.
    Surely, Jawwad Khan will dismiss this as another trivial attempt to sully the mighty JI’s name. Much energy has been spent on this “doctor” and that roznama ummat fella who have knack for irritating finer sensibilties with painfully superficial rhetoric. The good doctor from Maryland poses a worthy challenge.

  132. Bloody Civilian

    that’s the difference between sufi muhammad and dr munawar hassan. the latter considers both suicide bombing and democracy to be halal in pakistan. and dictatorship too, provided the dictator displays the requisite level of religiosity. they are all for education provided it is as proscribed and prescribed by them, b0th materials and personnel.

    they were all for fighting and dying for america when they were being paid in dollars for it. they were against pakistan till they could see themselves controlling it through whatever illegal and immoral backdoor.

    The good doctor from Maryland ..

    you forgot to add the “uproarious” FAAP. perhaps the good doctor was just being a good businessman, that’s why he waved about his professional qualifications, in case there were any potential customers reading this. or did he think everybody else on this forum is a high school drop out?

  133. Rashid

    @Mohsin Ansari, MD, FAAP
    October 22, 2009 at 8:09 pm
    Your: Some how many Quadyanis and their supporters are regular writers in this list
    I personally feel that Quadyanis should get all the rights of a citizen in Pakistan. But the conflict starts when they try to portray themselves as Muslims and have shown intent to destroy the Islamic Identity of this country, of course and 100 times of course they cannot be regarded as Muslims.

    Mohsin:
    1-Have you cared what Holy Quran says. If a person calls himself a Muslim, or even uses Muslim salutation ‘salam’; no Muslim has right to declare him a Kafir (non-Muslim).
    2-Have you ever pondered, Pakistani Muslims like of you, use Holy Quran and Sunna to declare some one a Muslim, but then they use POLITICS i.e. 2nd constitutional amendment in 1974 to declare some one Kafir. How come HQ and Sunna is NOT used in this regard???
    Where is your: “ I make my wits on the basis of concrete evidence, logic, rationality and research”??? You are NOT even showing the basic HONESTY!!!
    What is important for you Holy Quran or Politicians in 1974 national assembly, MANY OF WHOM DID NOT QUALIFY to even become members of that parliament according to 1973 constitution (as they were practicing vices according to Islam. Ref: Article 62 of 1973 constitution)??? Those kinds of politicians decided who is Muslim and who is Kafir!!! Where is your sense of rationality???

    Mohsin you live in USA and you write:
    “I hardly see any Muslim household including Arabs without Tafheem Ul Quran”
    If this is your criterion then you better accept Christianity, as every Christian house hold in world has bible and EVERY HOTEL, MOTEL ROOM at least in USA has The Gideons bible. (An evangelical organization founded over 100 years ago by two traveling salesmen, Gideons International now distributes more than 59 million bibles every year. That’s about one million every week, or 112 per minute.)

    Mohsin, I notice you consistently circumnavigate my questions!!!

  134. zafar iqbal

    خارجہ پالیسی کی تبدیلی؛راہِ نجات ہے!
    سید منورحسن
    امیر جماعت اسلامی پاکستان
    پاکستان کے حالات اس قدر تہہ در تہہ شکل اختیار کرگئے ہیں کہ بسا اوقات ڈور کا سرا تلاش کرنا مشکل ہوجاتاہے۔ قوم ابھی جی ایچ کیو پر حملے کے صدمے سے باہر نہیں نکل سکی تھی کہ لاہور ، پشاوراور کوہاٹ سلسلہ وار حملوں کی زد میں آگئے۔قومی اسمبلی کے جاری اجلاس میں اس صورتحال پر بحث کرنے اور کوئی لائحہ عمل وضع کرنے کے بجائے اجلاس کوغیر معینہ مدت کے لیے ملتوی کردیا گیا۔ کیری لوگر بل کے بارے میں بھی کوئی پتہ نہ چلاکہ وزیر خارجہ کے دورہ واشنگٹن سے اس میںکیا تبدیلی ہوئی۔ سب کچھ ٹھیک ہے کی رٹ لگائے وزیرخارجہ کا کہنا ہے کہ بل غلامی کی دستاویز اور خودمختاری کا سودا نہیں،پاکستانی قوم کے لیے تحفہ ہے۔نائن الیون کی بعد دی گئی امریکی دھمکی کے نتیجے میںبننے والی خارجہ پالیسی کا تسلسل جاری ہے اورخوف اور غلامی کی خو عوامی نمائندگی اورجمہوریت کی دعویدار حکومت کے رگ وپے میں بھی سرایت کرگئی ہے۔اس پالیسی کی بنیاد یہ ہے کہ دوست کو دشمن سمجھو اوردشمن کودوست سمجھ کرگلے لگاؤ، ڈومور کے احکامات کو بجا لاؤاور ہر کہے پر آمنا وصدقنا کہو۔وارآن ٹیرر میں فرنٹ لائن سٹیٹ بن کرپاکستان نے امریکہ کے ساتھ سب سے زیادہ تعاون کیا ہے لیکن اس کا نتیجہ یہ نکلا ہے کہ اس وقت ملک کا کوئی سرا محفوظ نہیں ہے۔
    2
    بزدلی پر مبنی اس خارجہ پالیسی کی وجہ سے روایتی حریف بھارت کی غلامی کو بھی قبول کرلیاگیا ہے۔ امریکی ہدایت یہ ہے کہ بھارت سے خطرہ محسوس نہ کرو،فوج کو مشرقی بارڈر سے ہٹا کر مغربی بارڈر پر لے جاؤاور قبائلی علاقوں میں آپریشن کرو۔اس حکم کی تعمیل کی جارہی ہے لیکن سرحد کو خالی پاکربھارت اپنے تمام مگ طیارے مشرقی سرحد پرلے آیاہے،اور وہاں فوج میں اضافہ کررہاہے۔ تازہ ترین اس کا اعلان یہ ہے کہ پاکستانی فوج میں دہشت گردوں سے نمٹنے کی صلاحیت نہیں ہے، اگر بمبئی جیسا حملہ پھر ہواتوہم خود دہشت گردوں پر قابوپائیں گے۔نوبت باین جا رسید کہ اب بھارت بھی نالائقی کے سرٹیفیکیٹ تھما کر پاکستان میں قدم رنجہ فرمانے اوراپنی فوج بھیج کر دہشت گردوں کا قلع قمع کرنے کی دھمکیاں دے رہاہے۔احتجاج تو پاکستان کو کرنا چاہیے تھاکہ حالات کے بگاڑ میں بھارت کا ہاتھ ہے مگرحکومت سب کچھ جاننے کے باوجود اس کانام لیتے ہوئے شرماتی ہے۔رحمان ملک پارلیمنٹ اور آئی جی ایف سی بلوچستان پریس کانفرنس میں کہہ چکے ہیں کہ بھارتی سازشوں کے شواہد موجود ہیں۔ کمشنر لاہورکے مطابق لاہور پر حملوں میں بھارت ملوث ہے۔ لیکن جو خارجہ پالیسی بنائی گئی ہے، اس میں بھارت کا نام لینے کی گنجائش نہیں ہے۔گاہے یہ کہاجاتاہے کہ امریکہ کو بتا دیاہے کہ بھارت پاکستان کو غیر مستحکم کر نے کے لیے پیسہ اور ٹریننگ فراہم کررہاہے لیکن کھل کر بھارت کا نام لینا، اس سے احتجاج کرنااور عالمی برادری میں اس کے سازشی اورمنفی کردار کو بے نقاب کرناہماری خارجہ پالیسی کا حصہ نہیں ہے۔
    (
    پاکستان میں نظر آنے والا بگاڑ اور انتشاراس غیرمتوازن خارجہ پالیسی کا نتیجہ ہے۔ہمارے معاشرے میں ہر طرح کے لوگ موجودہیں۔ دانا وبینابھی اور ان پڑھ بھی، دینی مزاج کے حامل بھی اور سیکولر سوچ رکھنے والے بھی،جو روایتی طور پر اپنی زندگی میں مگن ہیں اوراپنی سوچ اور فکر کے حوالے سے فیصلے کرتے ہیں۔ لیکن ایک قسم اور بھی ہے جو معاشرے کے اندر بڑی تعداد میں موجود ہے اور جسے اس بات پر جھنجلاہٹ ہوتی ہے کہ ہماری آزادی کیوںسلب کرلی گئی ہے،بھارت کی غلامی کیوںاختیار کر لی گئی ہے ،کیری لوگر بل توہین آمیز شرائط کے ساتھ کیوںمنظور ہواہے۔اس طبقے میں اضطراب کی کیفیت ہے۔ بعض لوگ ہم سے سوال کرتے ہیں کہ جس دلدل میں حکمرانوں نے ہمیں پھنسا دیاہے، تقریریں کرکے اس سے نہیں نکلا جاسکتا،ہمیں کوئی راستہ بتائیں۔ معاشرے میں لاکھوں لوگ کسی اور راستے کی تلاش میں ہیں اور بسا اوقات غلط راستے پر چل پڑتے ہیں، دشمن کے ہتھے چڑھ جاتے ہیںتو کیا آپ ان سب لوگوں کوقتل کریں گے۔ ان پر قابو پانے کے لیے ان کی بات اور دلائل سننااور ان دلائل کاجواب دینا اورواقعات کا رخ تبدیل کرنا ضروری ہے۔کچھ لوگ برا مناتے ہیں کہ آپ ’’دہشت گردوں‘‘ کے خلاف کارروائی پر کیوں بولتے ہیں؟ ہم نے بارہایہ بات کہی ہے کہ اصل دہشت گردی توریاستی دہشت گردی ہے،اورریاست ہی مختلف گروہوں کو منظم کرتی ہے۔ ہماری اطلاعات کے مطابق خود کش بمبار کی صورت میں سامنے آنے والے بے شمار لوگوں کی لاشوں کا جب جائزہ لیا گیا تو وہ مسلمان نہیں تھے۔ حکومت اورفوج کو اس کی تحقیق کرنی چاہیے اور حقیقت قوم کو بتانی چاہیے۔ریاستی دہشت گردی کا نام نہ لیا جائے،اوراپنے لوگوں کوطاقت اور بندوق کے زورپر اور امریکہ کے ڈرون حملوں سے ڈرا کردبانے کی کوشش کی جائے تو یہ پالیسی نتیجہ خیز نہیں ہوسکتی ہے۔ طاقت کا مقابلہ طاقت سے کرنے کی وجہ سے حالات مزید خراب ہوتے ہیں اورتباہی و بربادی کے سواکچھ ہاتھ نہیں آتا۔ بالآخر مذاکرات کی میز سجانی پڑتی ہے کہ اس کے سوا کوئی چارہ کار نہیں ہے۔
    حکومت کی طرف سے بارہا یہ بات کہی گئی ہے کہ ہم نے طالبان کی کمرتوڑ دی ہے، دہشت گردوں کے قلعے مسمار کردیے ہےں، ان کی امید کا آخری سہارا بھی ختم کردیاہے لیکن واقعات تو روز ہورہے ہیں اوربڑھتے جارہے ہےں۔جی ایچ کیو پر قبضہ پوری قوم کے لیے سوہانِ روح اوردل ودماغ کے لیے شدید ترین اذیت کا باعث تھا۔سوچنا ہی محال ہے کہ جی ایچ کیو پربھی کوئی قبضہ کرسکتاہے۔ہر کارروائی کے بعد یہ دعوی کرناکہ ہم نے کامیابی حاصل کرلی اوردہشت گردوں کے اہداف کو پورا نہیں ہونے دیا، قوم کو دھوکے میں رکھنے کے سوا کچھ نہیںہے۔ اصولاًتو حملہ ہونا ہی نہیں چاہیے تھا۔انٹیلی جنس ایجنسیوں کو حملہ آور پہلے ہی گرفتار کرلینے چاہیے تھے۔اگر وہ جی ایچ کیو،ایف آئی اے،پولیس اور ایلیٹ فورس کے ٹریننگ سنٹر تک پہنچے ،قبضہ کیا، وہاں کئی گھنٹے تک مقابلہ کیا، آپ کے کئی آفیسر جان سے ہاتھ دھو بیٹھے۔اگرچہ حملہ آور بھی مارے گئے لیکن وہ تو مرنے کے لیے آئے تھے تو آپ کو کیا کامیابی حاصل ہوئی۔ جو واقعات ہوئے ، ہم نے ان کی شدید مذمت اورمعصوم جانوں کے ضیاع پر افسوس کا اظہار کیاہے۔پاکستان میں انتشار کی کیفیت سے صرف دشمن کا دل ہی خوش ہوسکتاہے۔اس صورتحال سے نکلنے کے لیے لازمی ہے کہ خارجہ پالیسی پر نظرثانی کی جائے ۔ دوست کو دوست اور دشمن کو دشمن سمجھے بغیر ایک قدم بھی آگے نہیں بڑھاجاسکتا۔ اسی لیے ہمارا مطالبہ ہے کہ وزیرستان میں آپریشن نہ کیاجائے اورجہاں جہاں آپریشن ہورہاہے اس کو بند کیا جائے۔ مذکرات کاراستہ اختیار کیا جائے اورحب الوطنی پر مبنی خارجہ پالیسی اپنائی جائے۔امریکہ اور بھارت کبھی پاکستان کے دوست نہیں تھے،ان سے تعلقات پر نظرثانی کی جائے اور اس حوالے سے حدود کا تعین کیاجائے۔ امریکہ نے تو دوستی میں ہی جتنا نقصان پہنچایاہے اتنا کوئی دشمن بھی نہیں پہنچاتا۔ مشرقی پاکستان کو بنگلہ دیش بنے چالیس سال ہونے کوہیں لیکن اس کا بحری بیڑہ ابھی تک راستے میں ہے۔اورابھی پاکستان پر دباؤ ڈالا جارہاتھا کہ وزیرستان میں آپریشن کرو، آپریشن شروع تو امریکہ نے افغان بارڈر سے اپنی فوجی چوکیاں ہٹا لیں’ہوئے تم دوست جس کے دشمن اس کا آسمان کیوں ہو‘۔ کیری لوگر بل میں ریاست پاکستان اورعوام کو جوصلواتیں سنائی گئی ہیں وہ کسی دوستی کا پتہ نہیں دیتی ہیں۔ پاکستانی قوم کے احتجاج کے باوجود امریکہ نے اس میںایک لفظ کی بھی تبدیلی نہیں کی۔جیسا بل تھاویسا ہی منظور ہواہے۔قوم جان چکی ہے اور حکمرانوں کو بھی جان لینا چاہیے کہ امریکہ کی دوستی منافقت پر مبنی ہے، اس نے آج تک کسی دوست اور لے پالک حکمران سے وفا نہیں کی بلکہ دوستی کی آڑ میں نقصان پہنچایاہے۔ اسے صرف اپنے مفادات عزیز ہیںاور بھارت اور اسرائیل ہی اس کے اصل دوست ہیں۔
    جماعت اسلامی نے جمعہ 23اکتوبر کوکیری لوگربل کے حوالے سے ریفرنڈم کا اعلان کیا ہے۔ اس کے لیے 5ہزار باقاعدہ پولنگ بوتھ بنائے جائیں گے، کیمپ لگیں گے اور ریلوے سٹیشن، ائیرپورٹ،بس اسٹینڈ،بارایسوسی ایشنوں،یونیورسٹیوں،سکولوں، کالجوں اور بازاروں میں جماعت اسلامی کے کارکن پولنگ باکس لے کر پہنچیں گے اور عوام کی رائے حاصل کریں گے۔جماعت اسلامی کے نزدیک حالات کو تبدیل کرنے کا واحدطریقہ یہی ہے کہ عوام کو منظم کیاجائے،اور ایک قاعدے ، ضابطے اورقانون کے دائرے کے اندر رہ کر جدوجہد کی جائے ۔ اورہم کسی کمزوری یا ضعف کی وجہ سے قاعدے ضابطے کی بات نہیں کرتے بلکہ یہ شریعت کا تقاضا اورہماری پالیسی کا حصہ ہے کہ معصوم جانوں سے نہ کھیلا جائے، غریب آدمی کا استحصال اور نقصان نہ کیاجائے۔ ہماری یہ سوچی سمجھی رائے ہے کہ تحریکوں کی زندگی اور دوام اور ان کی کامیابی کا دارومداران کے پرامن رہنے اور قانون کی پابندی کرنے میں ہے

  135. Rashid

    Will Dr. Ansari, MD call CPS (Child Protection Services) or risk losing his license to live in a country that defends his right to hold what ever beliefs he wishes and practices what ever religion he wishes, guaranteed by the constitution of USA???

    Is Dr Ansari going to honor writing of Maududi:
    “It is not only permissible to give in marriage the girls who have not had their menstrual periods yet. Rather, it is also permissible for the husbands to have sexual intercourse with them. Now it is obvious that something that has been allowed by the Quran, no Muslim has the right to declare it forbidden. (Mullah Maududi, Tafhimul Quran 5:571).”

    We eagerly look forward to Dr. Ansari reply.

  136. Gorki

    Dr. Ansari was given a hearty thumbs up for his post yesterday by his fans;
    It is only fair that I do the same for Dr. Rashid for his penetrating questions; I am officially joining his fan club.😉 and will eagerly follow this scholarly debate.😉

    Regards.

  137. Rashid

    Dr Gorki:
    “I am officially joining his fan club. and will eagerly follow this scholarly debate.”

    Here is warning for you:
    If you listen to my line of arguments your conscience will NOT let you use FOUR concubines that your right hand possess (belief of Maududi and his followers like Dr. Ansari).😉

  138. Gorki

    Dr. Rashid:

    “FOUR concubines that your right hand possess..”

    I tell ya, life is unfair.

    The psychiatrists get to have all the fun and get away by saying things like the above and yet all of us lesser folks risk a sexual harrassment law suit even if we hinted such a thing around polite company.😉

    Anyway, on a family friendly forum like this one (at least till some foul mouthed Ahmadia haters show up) let us leave it at that for now.😉

    Regards.

  139. Mohsin Ansari, MD, FAAP

    Most you sitting in your study rooms @ 9 PM in Pakistan asking questions and explanations from me , whereas, I am in midst of a flu season trying to see at least 50 little angels a day, I told you I never thought I will be part of this group bz of my time constraints, I cannot respond to Rashid’s scholarly questions until I read what Maulana has actually written, I hope will get a chance to get back to you guys1

  140. Rashid

    Dr Ansari sahib:
    Not for all of my questions you need to read Maududi sahib 6 volume Tafseer.

    Just for a moment think with unbiased, impartial, rational mind and just be HONEST.

  141. Ummi

    “In my view, when he curses, he just goes down to the level shown by you and your group like the good doctor and the two more gentlemen named Talkhaba and Ummi”

    Ok so you are admitting that we guys play a big role to expose the darker side of YLH. Thanks!🙂

  142. kashifiat

    Ali Arqam ! He never say this & don’t quote the things out of context.

    Now ! PTH is the world’s largest mentally ill & retarded people garbage center. Most of them are Islamo & Maududi phobic.

    They are ill-mannered, misguided, Illiterate ( writing in English couldn’t certified any person that he is an educated person), Non knowledgeable, narrow minded, shallow thinker, self praised pseudo intellectual, schizophrenic. absolute stupid, jumping like monkeys & shouting like crow

    So according to Quran

    Qaloo salama ! To all of dozen people who are “active here”

    Wassalam

    & Ali not 100 , alhamdullilah 100 jews & 100’000 their supporters One Abul Ala Maududi is enough🙂

  143. Jay

    Telling Lies May Be Mandatory:

    “Truth is one of the most important principles of Islam and lying is one of the greatest sins. But in real life, needs arise when telling lies is not only allowed, rather it becomes
    mandatory.”(Tarjumanul Quran, May 1958 pg 54)

    An apple does not fall from the tree. The intellectual dishonesty and “True Lies” of Jamaat Islami are for all to see.

  144. yasserlatifhamdani

    kashifiat,

    You wrote:

    They are ill-mannered, misguided, Illiterate ( writing in English couldn’t certified any person that he is an educated person), Non knowledgeable, narrow minded, shallow thinker, self praised pseudo intellectual, schizophrenic. absolute stupid, jumping like monkeys & shouting like crow” (SIC)

    I think people can see who is what for themselves.

  145. Congratulations to All Jamatias
    “Go (to) America Go”
    is successfully continued
    And a milestone in the way to this struggle….
    Qazi’s two sons studied in USA, When he was sending kids of poor to die in Afghanistan, his sons were studding on US scholarships! How much hypocrite?
    Qazi’sdaughter got American citizenship swearing to be faithful to USA….and married an American doctor…giving Qazi a grandson with American blood !
    How it is a milestone…
    Qazi’s grandson aka chota Kazi acc. to US law
    will have the right to Vote and his son aka neo chota kazi will have the right to contest US presidential Elections…..And this will bring JI brand Islamic revolution in US….

  146. G G Hazarwi Once said
    “I bet Maudoodi will die in America”
    And time has proved it…..but in those days
    US was Ehle Kitaab not declared as Enemy of Islam….
    But Now what the Qazi sb will pretend……

  147. Majumdar

    Ali mian,

    ….and married an American doctor…

    Hopefully this American doctor was a Muslim or if he not he did revert to Islam before the marriage.

    Regards

  148. Rashid

    @Aliarqam:
    “G G Hazarwi”

    Do you mean ‘Ghulam Ghous Hazarwi’?

    His prophecy came true. I guess he was a “prophet”!😉

  149. PMA

    Gorki (October 22, 2009 at 11:26 pm):

    “I tell ya, life is unfair. The psychiatrists get to have all the fun……..”

    My Dear ‘Gorki’, you too can have the pleasure of FOUR. All you have to do is to convert to Islam (you could pick a sect of your own choice). But then you have to leave the comfort of the USA and move to some Muslim country. (Could going back to your native India as a newly converted Muslim be an option?). Oh, one more thing. There is a minor operation involved also. But being an American trained doctor I am sure you can arrange that without much problem. Good luck to you Sir.

  150. @Rashid
    Yup…Ghulam Ghous Hazarwi said that…He was against PNA…the alliance against Bhutto and left JUI for his alliance with JI….
    @Majumdar
    The Doctor is Pakistani but US Citizen

  151. Archaeo

    @Gorki

    About your wistful musings and PMA’s prompt parking of tongue in cheek: remind me quickly about what Hayyer-garu said about Majumdar “leading with his chin”?

    The, errm, razor’s edge of intellectual discussion, in a matter of speaking; Majumdar’s chin and the extreme boundaries of speculation that you reached. One can’t help wondering – is it time to, what’s the phrase for this occasion, back up a bit?

  152. Gorki

    PMA Sahib, Archaeo,

    Thanks guys for looking out for me.😉

    However I think PMA Sahib is overreading what I wrote. He too only only focussed on half my remark and missed the point.

    Having been happily married to the woman of my dreams, who still make my heart beat faster whenever she enters the room, I have no use for any concubines (either of the right hand or otherwise.)

    Here is what I had written:

    “The psychiatrists get to have all the fun and get away by saying things like the above and yet all of us lesser folks risk a sexual harrassment law suit even if we hinted such a thing around polite company.”

    Which to me should translate into “You as a psychiatrist may be able to say such things but for the rest of us who have to watch every word, let us not go there, even in jest.”
    Thus it should be obvious that my comment was only limited to the luxury of making such remarks without fear (not musing for anything.)

    (Those who hold senior administrative positions in the US will relate to the context since even remarks like above are taken very seriously these days, and people have been sued for less)

    Regards.

  153. Aliarqam

    JI Ex Chief…the Ex geography lecturer..Mr. Qazi has declared Dr. Hoodbhoy as Raw and CIA agent…in Express News Programme while responding Dr. Hoodbhoy revealed that during his US visit Qazi Sb in his speech at brookings Institution started it as ”I feel it like my own country ”

  154. Rashid

    Express News TV propgram Front Line October 23, 2009.

    Jamaat Islami leader Liaquat Baloch:
    17th constitutional ammendment was political decision, it could be WRONG, and it could be REVERSED!!!!

    I wonder what Liaquat Baloch has to say about 2nd constitutional ammendment which was also a political decision, and why it could not be reversed???

  155. dr jawwad khan

    2nd ammendment was not entirely and solely a political decision contrary to the 17th ammendment…which was the will of a dictator.
    that was one of the finest example of wisdom of zulifiqar Ali bhutto and national assembly.
    that was the finest example of “IJMAH” of the nation.the whole nation was behind this amendment
    that was also the finest example of preserving and protecting the islamic ideology of pakistan.
    whole islamic ideology is based upon the finality of the Nabi e Kareem(salallaho alehe wa aalehi wasalim) and that ideology was protected well on time by the muslims of pakistan.
    (Alhamdulillahay rabbil aalameen)

  156. Rashid

    @dr jawwad khan
    Your: “2nd ammendment was not entirely and solely a political decision”

    So, you do accept it was at least partially political decision. You accept how religion was used to meet political aims.

    Your: “that was one of the finest example of wisdom of zulifiqar Ali bhutto and national assembly.”

    So, a person like ZAB did a great service by TRASHING and bringing respect and honor of Kalma-Shahada value to ZERO. Of course ZAB did NOT know how upset and angry Rasul Allah SAWS was when he heard from his Sahabi (companion) who killed an enemy in the battle who recited Kalma-Shahada to save his life.

    Your: “that was the finest example of “IJMAH” of the nation.the whole nation was behind this amendment”

    So, in your opinion “Ijmah” of nation was SUPERIOR to direct injunction of Holy Quran, where Allah SWT has instructed Muslims NOT to even call anyone Kafir who even says “salam” (muslim salutation). And you agree with “ijmah” that took authority and responsibility of Allah SWT to decide who is a Muslim and who is Kafir.

    Your: “that was also the finest example of preserving and protecting the islamic ideology of pakistan.”

    Islamic ideology of Pakistan was/ is a land for people who recite Kalma-Shahada. Does one need to curse 100s of people with whom you disagree to be accepted as a Muslim???
    Does Shia needs to curse Sunnis and its sub-branches to be accepted as Muslim; and Sunni needs to curse Shia and its sub-branches to be accepted as Muslim??? Is Kafir vs Kafir declarations is “Islamic ideology” of Pakistan???

    Your: “whole islamic ideology is based upon the finality of the Nabi e Kareem(salallaho alehe wa aalehi wasalim) and that ideology was protected well on time by the muslims of pakistan.”

    Using your standards EVERY MUSLIM including YOU, EXCEPT Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) members are in VIOLATION of finality of prophethood on Rasul Allah SAWS. People like YOU are DENIERS of finality of the Nabi e Kareem(salallaho alehe wa aalehi wasalim). ONLY LAM members hold REAL AND HONEST BELIEF OF FINALITY OF NABI-E-KAREEM. Where as people like YOU hold belief that Jesus (Isa AS) will DESCEND in Physical form from sky, like some thing dropping from sky. YOU yourself is denier of finality of prophethood on Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and you have audacity to question others!!!

    Read what Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (ZAB) said:
    When Z.A.Bhutto was on trial he was accused of being a “Muslim in name only”. This accusation was levelled by the Lahore High Court Judgment against him of March 1978. Bhutto was very bitter about this, as he has himself stated in his book “If I am assasssinated” which you can download easily from the website:
    www dot bhutto dot org

    I also have the following reference from the time when he appealed against his death sentence to the Supreme Court:
    “He [Bhutto] said that it was an acknowledged principle that the person who recites the Kalima is a Muslim, and no one has the right to call him a non-Muslim. Citing an instance, chairman [of the People’s Party] Bhutto said that Abu Sufyan, a great enemy of the Holy Prophet, was brought to him. He claimed to have recited the Kalima, but the Holy Prophet’s Companions argued that he had not done it with his heart, and they wanted to kill him. But the Holy Prophet said that as he had recited the Kalima, he was now a Muslim, and could not be harmed.”
    (Urdu Daily Masawat, Lahore, Wednesday 20 December 1978, front page, column 1)

    He said this in reply to the accusation that he was “a Muslim in name only”.
    So before the end of his life Bhutto discovered the true definition of a Muslim and himself presented it in court.

    Dr Jawwad Khan, howcome you do NOT accept definition of Muslim presented in court by the same ZAB, who you praise for his wisdom???

    My fellow Pakistani Citizens:
    The EVIL TREE of declaring fellow reciters of Kalma-Shahada as Kafir (non-Muslim) was planted OFFICIALLY by ZAB in 1974. That tree has spread throughout Pakistan and is constantly producing its fruit. And its seeds are getting implanted in every nook and corner of Pakistan. In Pakistan, in reality, Respect of Kalma-Shahada is EQUAL TO ZERO. No one cares when one reciter of Kalma-Shahada is killing another reciter of kalma-shahada. Because this recitation of Kalma-shahada is ONLY verbal and NOT from heart. Unless this evil tree is uprooted and destroyed from its roots i.e. 1973 constitution (2nd amendment) this tree of evil will keep on producing and spreading its seeds in Pakistan. I am afraid Allah SWT may not totally physically disintegrate Pakistan, and with it Pakistan’s 1973 constitution goes into trash. And when there is no Pakistan (God forbid) there will not be any 1973 constitution and there will not be 2nd constitutional amendment of 1974. Will people like Dr. Jawwad Khan be happy than???

    FOR THE RECORD, I AM NOT A QADIANI.

  157. Bloody Civilian

    @Rashid

    ONLY LAM members hold REAL AND HONEST BELIEF OF FINALITY OF NABI-E-KAREEM. Where as people like YOU hold belief that Jesus (Isa AS) will DESCEND in Physical form from sky, like some thing dropping from sky. YOU yourself is denier of finality of prophethood on Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and you have audacity to question others!!!

    and you think this makes you better than your adversary in this argument!? you’re no better. you’re just as narrow-minded, bigotted and intolerant. just more mistaken about your own reality.

    i see you’ve been warned before by the moderators. either desist from using this blog for such name-calling and sectarian point-scoring.. or find another blog.

  158. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian:

    My friend you MISSED THE MOST IMPORTANT SENTENCE in the paragraph. I quote here:
    “Using your [dr. jawwad khan] standards EVERY MUSLIM including YOU,——-are in VIOLATION of finality of prophethood on Rasul Allah SAWS”

    Bloody Civilian, PLEASE do NOT do this.
    By you taking out the most important point, you totally distorted my meaning and message.
    I call it DISHONESTY. This is the attitude of Mulla-Mafia that is KILLING Pakistan and Pakistanis.

    Now if i point out Mulla-Mafia reality on a NEUTRAL FORUM, why are you upset with this fact.
    Are you trying to replicate Pakistani Mulla-Mafia attitude on this forum??? Are you trying to stifle an opinion that you may not like???

  159. Jay

    How to Establish a Solid Islamic State: Maududi shows a brilliant way to establish a solid Islamic state:

    “Send notice to the population that they must announce within one year whether they should be considered Muslims or non-Muslims. After that one year, all children born to Muslims will be considered Muslims. All those who register as Muslims will be forced to observe the worships and rituals of Islam, five prayers a day, Friday prayers, 2.5 percent charity well-documented, fasting in the month of Ramadhan, Pilgrimage to Makkah for the affluent, sacrificing a sheep or goat at least once a year etc. Then whoever falls short of these obligations of Islam, will be beheaded.” (Murtad Ki Saza, Punishment of the Apostate, August 1953, pg 76).

    Please note that many Mullahs considered Maududi a heretic apostate. He might have been the first to be put to sword. If this brilliant concept of Maududi is implemented, all the Muslim population of that ‘solid’ Islamic state will walk around without heads on their shoulders.

  160. Jay

    Jamaat Islami clearly reflects the personal opinions of certain peoples, and not necessarily of Quran. By extension, the Pakistani society and its thought is magnification of such ideas.

    The paucity of logic in such a thought is reflected in its Constitution. Lets not forget that articles of constitution are developed by voting-in the populist ideas. These articles are NOT written by courts where a neutral judge weighs both sides for their logic and evidence.

    Constitution of Pakistan 1974, has a catch-22 in it. It undertakes to declare certain schools of thought as non-Muslim, while it itself lacks the very definition of a Muslim. Such lack of integrity and that too of a Constitution is laughable.

    Yet it is not laughable, because any effort to define a Muslim and that too in its Constitution can potentially result in a blood bath in Pakistan. Now that is ironic yet even more laughable.

    This Constitution by its spirit is in violation of Quran when read in light of the following verse:

    [Hence,] O you who have attained to faith, when you go forth [to war] in God’s cause, use your discernment, and do not – out of a desire for the fleeting gains of this worldly life – say unto anyone who offers you the greeting of peace, “Thou art not a believer” for with God there are gains abundant. You, too, were once in the same condition – but God has been gracious unto you. Use, therefore, your discernment: verily, God is always aware of what you do. {Translator: Muhammad Asad}

    Historically Jamaat Islami has always been at war against the people that said Constitution singles out.

    [above posted from another site]

  161. Bloody Civilian

    @Rashid

    hardly a fig leaf… especially when you went on the way you did tearing even that fig leaf into shreds.

    i really don’t care much for who is what in terms of religion and have no interest in imposing any identity on people other than the one they choose for themselves. i don’t give a damn whether you call me a ‘kafir’, ‘muslim’, ‘mullah’ or whatever. i didn’t care for the kind of exchanges between you and Lutf either. once again, you were both as bad as each other.

    i have little time for a discourse that includes examples like: Because this recitation of Kalma-shahada is ONLY verbal and NOT from heart. [..] I am afraid Allah SWT may not [sic?] totally physically disintegrate Pakistan

    you can read my stand/views in my posts on these threads. but, if you don’t mind, i’d rather ignore the rants where you tell people whether they are true followers of muhammad or mirza ghulam ahemd or not.. and how 170million pakistanis deserve to be destroyed by bolts of lightning according to Prophet Rashid.

  162. Bloody Civilian

    … my stand against 2nd amendment is based on the fact that it is the most despicable breach of a fundamental human right. i do not mind you arguing, if coherently, that it is un-Islamic too. but i do not see why democracy itself has to be attacked. even more importantly, what i care least for is when you think – all prophet-like – that you know that the parliament of ’73 were a bunch of sinners. what are you contributing to the argument there?

    MANY OF WHOM DID NOT QUALIFY to even become members of that parliament according to 1973 constitution (as they were practicing vices according to Islam. Ref: Article 62 of 1973 constitution)??? Those kinds of politicians decided who is Muslim and who is Kafir!!!

    so those not practicing the vices you claim to be a witness to do have the right?? i find your claim that the quran is more important than democracy just as dangerous. that is why i have no time for arguments like “What is important for you Holy Quran or Politicians” that takes sovereignty away from the people and gives power to those who claim that it is their job to interpret the quran, or that their interpretation is better than all others. my remedy for one wrong is not to replace it with another.

  163. Rashid

    Geo TV program, Mere Mutabiq October 24, 2009.

    Dr. Israr Ahmad:
    When Allah punishes nations (Azab-e-Ilahi) He divides them into groups and they kill each other.

    Today in Pakistan Muslims are killing Muslims.
    Value of Kalma-Shahada = Zero.

    Pakistanis need to restore respect of Kalma-Shahada to end this mayhem and killing of Muslims.

    @Bloody Civilian:
    “so those not practicing the vices you claim to be a witness to do have the right??”

    I guess you are not aware of ZAB public speeches in which he said, “yes, i drink alcohol”
    And according to article 62 of 1973 Pakistans Constitution, it is a vice and ZAB did NOT qualify to become member of National that authored/approved the said constitution.

    ” i find your claim that the quran is more important than democracy just as dangerous”

    I NEVER made such STUPID claim. In fact, i am saying 2nd ammendment to 1973 constitution was ULTRA VIRES act of National Assembly.
    Pakistan National Assembly and its members should have NEVER dealt with issue of declaring a Muslim as non-Muslim.

  164. Bloody Civilian

    my question was: does a pious (in your view) membership of the parliament have the right to do what was done? you’re telling me that ZAB was this or that by his own admission. what is the relevance? was ZAB drinking alcohol a criminal act at the time of the 2nd amendment?

    re-read article 62 and tell me if it is at all workable. tell me how, as drafted, it does not apply to both muslim and non-muslim members. who decides what is an ‘Islamic Injunction’ and what is not if not – once again – the dreaded clerics (after all it is not insisting on convictions by a court of law, so is in violation of ‘innocence till proven guitly’)? how can you base a criticism of 2nd amendment as something as insidious as article 62!?

    as for your second claim, i’ve already quoted your own words: “What is important for you Holy Quran or Politicians”

  165. Bloody Civilian

    ” as something as insidious as ” = on something as insidious as

  166. Bloody Civilian

    … about quoting dr israr, the less said the better.

  167. Bloody Civilian

    Today in Pakistan Muslims are killing Muslims.
    Value of Kalma-Shahada = Zero.

    what about value of human life??? what does ‘kalma-shahada’ have to do with value of human life??? what are you trying to say?? those who don’t say ‘kalma-shahada’… their life is of lesser value??

    what kind of stupid argument is this?

  168. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 1:00 am

    “my question was: does a pious (in your view) membership of the parliament have the right to do what was done? you’re telling me that ZAB was this or that by his own admission. what is the relevance? was ZAB drinking alcohol a criminal act at the time of the 2nd amendment?”

    BC, I already said enactment of 2nd amendment by parliament was ULTRA VIRES (Latin word meaning, beyond the power or means (of) : beyond the scope or in excess of legal power or authority). Constitution of former USSR had an article which said, there is NO God. That does NOT mean there is or not God. It was Ultra Vires act of USSR Dumas.
    ZAB’s alcohol drinking at time of 2nd amendment was grounds for his DISQUALIFICATION from parliament membership, so does many other PPP members.
    PPP religious minister Kausar Niazi, nicked name “Maulvi Wisky”.

    “re-read article 62 and tell me if it is at all workable. tell me how, as drafted, it does not apply to both muslim and non-muslim members. who decides what is an ‘Islamic Injunction’ and what is not if not – once again – the dreaded clerics (after all it is not insisting on convictions by a court of law, so is in violation of ‘innocence till proven guitly’)? how can you base a criticism of 2nd amendment as something as insidious as article 62!?”

    Of course neither ZAB nor other members of parliament had conscience and morality to resign from parliament when 1973 constitution with article 62 passed. It is amazing you are asking me why Conscience of parliament members was dead. Why they did not resign or so called religious leaders demanded their resignation. You should be putting these questions to those dead souls. I am making the same point that those morally corrupt members of parliament instead of letting Supreme court/ judge decide, they took upon themselves to act as judge. In fact in their case prosecution, jury/bench and executioner were one and the same party.

    “as for your second claim, i’ve already quoted your own words: “What is important for you Holy Quran or Politicians”

    Holy Quran does NOT allow politicians to decide faith of a Kalma-Shahada reciters. In matters of faith HQ is important, NOT politicians.

  169. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 1:50 am
    … about quoting dr israr, the less said the better.

    Dr. Israr Ahmad quoted Holy Quran verses to support his assessment/ claim.

  170. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 1:57 am

    “what about value of human life???”

    Human life has great value. Unfortunately, In Pakistan it has NO value. It did NOT have value when Kalma-reciters (Ahmadis) were KILLED in 1974 and their dead bodies were lying in streets in different cities of pakistan. For THREE days NO body was allowed to bury them. Dogs were eating them. Their bodies were mutilated. These incidents repeated year after year. Later Christians became victims too. Today, one Muslim is killing another Muslim.

    “what does ‘kalma-shahada’ have to do with value of human life??? “

    If Pakistanis start valuing and keeping Kalma-shahada in high esteem, they will NOT kill a fellow human who recites it. Regardless, how much he differs with him.

    “what are you trying to say??”

    I am saying those who respect Kalma-Shahada from their heart, they do NOT kill another reciter of Kalma-Shahada.

    “ those who don’t say ‘kalma-shahada’… their life is of lesser value??”

    I NEVER said that. Rather I say, reciters of Kalma-Shahada are required to be MUCH MORE TOLERANT, PEACEFUL, LOVING than non-reciters. And true reciter of Kalma-Shahada values life of non-reciters as much he values his own and his reciter Muslim brother’s life. Life of every human being is of GREAT VALUE and EQUAL.

    “what kind of stupid argument is this?”

    If you had read my posts carefully, you would NOT have asked such a STUPID question, expected form an IMBECILE person.

  171. Hayyer

    Rashid:
    I wouldn’t want to interfere in a discussion on the practice of faith, or the discourse of political figures in Pakistan more than three decades ago but your comments implied that key figures of the latter category failed in the former, and for that reason their acts were incompetent; implying thereby that there was an illegitimacy of praxis.
    That is the issue I think that BC is posing to you.

  172. Bloody Civilian

    It was Ultra Vires act of USSR Dumas

    only if it infringed any one’s HUMAN rights. otherwise, it could only at most be a potential wrong against God. you have no locus standi (only God does). whether you choose to see it as ultra vires of God’s law or not, is no more than your personal opinion.

    or so called religious leaders demanded their resignation

    so had the ‘religious leaders’ (whatever that means and whoever they’re) done that, you’d have been happy. putting them above the people and giving them the power to decide who is and is not in breach of article 62 is nothing other than more of the same that you’re protesting against. but you obviously keep missing the point i’m making.

    re. alcohol, it’s a purely technical issue: which came first – 2nd amendment or criminalisation of alcohol? if the latter came second, then does the law, as drafted, have retrospective effect?

    Rather I say, reciters of Kalma-Shahada are required to be MUCH MORE TOLERANT, PEACEFUL, LOVING than non-reciters!!

    so its a comparative standard? what do you think non-muslims do to prevent the killing of fellow humans (i.e. other than reciting or respecting the ‘kalma-shahada’)? i’ve no issues whatsoever with your source of inspiration. i object to the comparisons bordering on prejudice.

  173. Bloody Civilian

    ….Rashid, i’m absolutely posing you the question that Hayyer has kindly formulated for us. you keep saying two apparently conflicting things:

    1. the politicians were not good muslims as per article 62 (and you clearly have implied who decides that – “or so called religious leaders demanded their resignation”.)

    2. for politicians/parliament to delve into religious matters or define what is or isn’t true faith or good religious practice is ultra vires of parliament’s powers, according to you. but nothing you say suggests that you believe that it is so not because it is in breach of a fundamental human right, as accepted by the UN and the world community. since you think it is something only the courts (i.e the Supreme Court) ought to (or could) have decided, one can conclude that you don;t think it was upto the ‘relgious leaders’ to make a final decision on this matter.

    my point is that only the courts, ultimately, can decide about breach of article 62, as well. my objection is to the glaring inconsistency on your part where you’re happy to allow the ‘religious leaders’ to usurp the power of both the people (ie Parliament) and the court (ie rule of law) when it comes to article 62. i put to you that exactly the same rule of law and principles of democracy apply to the insidious article 62 as do to the 2nd amendment. in the name of consistency, if nothing else, you ought to be objecting against either being decided by anyone other than the courts.

  174. Aliarqam

    @BC
    Very enlightening Indeed…

  175. Bloody Civilian

    rashid, i should add two points/clarifications perhaps pre-emptively:

    1. in a system where Parliament is supreme, no act of parliament can be ultra vires; it can only be illegal. in a system with no written constitution, the scope of illegality is reduced even further.

    until 1985, parliament was supreme and sovereign since the Objectives’ Resolution had no legal effect. even since then, sovereignty theoretically/conceptually belongs to God, but Parliament has provided no practical, legal means for God to exercise it. in fact, Parliament considers the people (meaning parliament) to be (absolute) trustees of that sovereignty. parliament has not bound itself in law to the opinions or verdicts of the Islamic Ideology council. it is only legally bound to follow the courts of law (until it chooses to legislate a court decision into impotence). Zia was ‘clever’ enough to not only keep the sharia court subservient to the supreme court but give it no greater power than providing an opinion.

    2. any reasonable court would not take more than 20 seconds in throwing out the kind of subject matter that the 2nd amendment deals with.. hopefully applying a suitable deterrant against any future attempts to waste the court’s time. it is the other extreme of your verdict on the Dumas: a claimant moving the court to declare the moon to be made of cheese.

    as for you calling me an imbecile, i can only hope it is not your professional opinion.

  176. Bloody Civilian

    @Aliarqam

    Thankyou.

    if i could ask to be enlightened myself… what did you exactly mean when you said “100 Yahudi, 1 Maudoodi”?

  177. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian:

    Let’s make it simple.
    Do you consider 2nd constitutional ammnment fair in spirit of justice?
    Please answer Yes or No.
    Thanks

  178. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian:
    One more question for you.

    Qadianis (whose current Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad) lives in UK.
    Hold belief that those who do NOT consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib as messenger of Allah, like all previous messengers from Adam AS to Rasul Allah SAWS are non-Muslim (Kafir). And thus Qadianis are NOT allowed to offer prayers behind any such Muslim Imam, offer funeral prayer of any such Muslim, and marry any such Muslim. Actually, there leaders such as Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad etc have used very STRONG language for such Muslims.

    If Qadianis had majority in Pakistan, they would have done the same that Pakistan National Assembly members did in 1974 i.e. Qadianis would have declared non-Qadiani reciters of Kalma-Tayyaba that includes all Sunni, Shia and of course members of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement as Kafir (non-Muslim). Do you think such act of Qadianis would have been fair, and not a violation of human rights?

  179. Bloody Civilian

    @Rashid

    if only you yourself had kept it that simple you’d probably have avoided doing the cause the damage that you’ve done.

    i’d give you a ‘clue’ if you promise to stick to your day job: go back and read the opening sentence of my post of October 25, 2009 at 2:11 pm.

    regards

  180. Bloody Civilian

    ……. i don’t need you to tell what they believe. i don’t give a damn about what they believe or what you think about it. i have no time for you trying to tell them (e.g. Lutf) how they are wrong. that makes you just another takfiri-type mullah in my eyes. the only thing i’m interested in is their, your and everyone else’s right to believe what they wish and call themselves whatever they want to.

    i’m even more interested in upholding rule of law and supremacy of law and parliament over everything and anything else (esp over what you call ‘religious leaders’.. of whatever persuation).

  181. Bloody Civilian

    they would have done the same

    unlike you, i don’t believe in ‘guilty until proven innocent’. nor do i believe in ‘pre-emptive strikes’. i resent your bringing religion into public law and putting and over and above parliament ie your whole stand vis a vis article 62. similarly, the wrong of 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with the ‘kalma-shahada’. it’s a most despicable breach of a fundamental human right because of the area or subject it enforces itself upon… not because of the particular conclusion it reached. that is why, i disagree with your stance and see your argument against the 2nd amendment to be no better than the vicious danger that is at the core of and realised by the 2nd amendment itself.

  182. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    “1. the politicians were not good muslims as per article 62 (and you clearly have implied who decides that – “or so called religious leaders demanded their resignation”.)”

    I am no one to say who is good or bad Muslim. All I am saying, according to article 62 they were not qualified to remain parliamant members.
    Article 62 of 1973 constitution:
    62. Qualifications for membership of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament).
    A person shall not be qualified to be elected or chosen as a member of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament) unless :-
    (e) he has adequate knowledge of Islamic teachings and practises obligatory duties prescribed by Islam as well as abstains from major sins ;
    Ref: http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part3.ch2.html

    “2.—-but nothing you say suggests that you believe that it is so not because it is in breach of a fundamental human right, as accepted by the UN and the world community.”

    No, I believe 2nd ammendment was BREACH of a fundamental human right, as accepted by the UN and the world community. If my reply gave opposite impression, I did not mean it.

    “since you think it is something only the courts (i.e the Supreme Court) ought to (or could) have decided,”

    At least if case was tried in an impartial court, as was case in Supreme court Singapore, and Supreme Court, Cape Town, South Africa, defendents get chance to present their point of view/ defend themselves. Just the way Muslims got chance to defend themselves against Makkan (i.e. Kafirs) in court of Ethopian king/ Judge who listened both parties in life of Rasul Allah SAWS (watch movie ‘The Message’). And in an impartial court proceedings are public.

    “one can conclude that you don;t think it was upto the ‘relgious leaders’ to make a final decision on this matter”

    Yes, deciding whether a reciter of Kalma-Shahada i.e. is a Muslim or not, is ONLY up to Allah SWT. Per Holy Quran, when a Muslim converts from Islam to another religion then it is up to Allah SWT to decide and deal with that person. I.e. there is NO punishment of apostacy in Islam. ‘religious leaders’ have no authority. Regardless they are sunni, shia or Qadianis.

    “my point is that only the courts, ultimately, can decide about breach of article 62, as well.my objection is to the glaring inconsistency on your part where you’re happy to allow the ‘religious leaders’ to usurp the power of both the people (ie Parliament) and the court (ie rule of law) when it comes to article 62.”

    No, this is NOT what I mean. Rather I say, NO Muslim and in particular ‘religious leaders’ has the right to decide who is good or bad muslim and who is in breach of article 62.

    “i put to you that exactly the same rule of law and principles of democracy apply to the insidious article 62 as do to the 2nd amendment. in the name of consistency, if nothing else, you ought to be objecting against either being decided by anyone other than the courts.”

    NO one should be deciding faith of anyone. At the very least any such matter should be decided by an IMPARTIAL court. As was the case in court of Ethopian Christian King, Supreme court of Singapore, Supreme court of South Africa etc.

  183. Bloody Civilian

    “putting and over and above parliament” = putting it over and above parliament

  184. Bloody Civilian

    @Rashid

    you repeating your stand vis a vis article 62 would not make me respect it.

    you say “I am no one to say who is good or bad Muslim.” yet you have no shame in hiding behind the controversial article 62. just because it is convenient. you think it is strengthening your argument against 2nd amendment when it is actually weakening it, rather pathetically: “All I am saying, according to article 62 they were not qualified to remain parliamant members.” what happened to due process?? so humble little rashid is “no one to say who is good or bad Muslim” but he is competent authority, doing away with the need for due process, pronouncing guilty verdicts under article 62!

    and yet you go on to yet again contradict yourself: “NO Muslim and in particular ‘religious leaders’ has the right to decide who is good or bad muslim and who is in breach of article 62.” what else have i been saying! pshhh!

  185. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 10:21 pm
    “All I am saying, according to article 62 they were not qualified to remain parliamant members.” what happened to due process?? “
    Yes, they all should get the due process. They all have the right to it.
    I am saying the authors of article 62 should have VOLUNTARILY APPLIED the said article, on themselves. My be I am expecting higher standards of consciences then their electorates. Oh my naivety!

  186. Bloody Civilian

    VOLUNTARILY APPLIED the said article

    how do you know whether they were (potentially) in breach of article 62 or not?? then, how do you know whether they did or did not ‘voluntarily’ apply the said article to themselves?

    as for your characterisation of a 170 million people, i have even less respect for such arrogant generalisations.

    you’ve only given the example of bhutto’s admission about drinking alcohol. i’m asking you the third time: when was alcohol criminalised? was it supposed to have retrospective effect?


    62. Qualifications for membership of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament).
    A person shall not be qualified to be elected or chosen as a member of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament) unless :-
    [..]

    (d) he is of good character and is not commonly known as one who violates Islamic Injunctions;

    if you’re relying on bhutto’s own admission, then it couldn’t have been common knowledge before that. in case of ‘maulana whisky’… what about whether ‘common knowledge’ is correct or based on incorrect hearsay?

    far more importantly, who decides what the Islamic Injunctions are and who interprets them? what about ZAB’s own view and interpretation of these so-called Islamic Injunctions? then, how do you know he did not voluntarily apply article 62 to himself?

    (e) he has adequate knowledge of Islamic teachings and practises obligatory duties prescribed by Islam as well as abstains from major sins ;

    what if a member does not consider drinking to be prohibitted in islam or for it to be a major sin?

    (f) he is sagacious, righteous and non-profligate and honest and ameen;

    admitting that you drink is honest, isn’t it?

    (this has been just to illustrate how your assumptions are just that)

  187. Rashid

    October 26, 2009 at 11:14 pm
    VOLUNTARILY APPLIED the said article
    “how do you know whether they were (potentially) in breach of article 62 or not?? then, how do you know whether they did or did not ‘voluntarily’ apply the said article to themselves?”
    Your above questions are answered in your next 2 questions.
    “you’ve only given the example of bhutto’s admission about drinking alcohol. i’m asking you the third time: when was alcohol criminalised?”
    Holy Quran/ Islam criminalized alcohol almost 1400 years prior to passing of 1973 Pakistan constitution. Government of Pakistan criminalized it in 1977.
    “ was it supposed to have retrospective effect?”

    Read:
    Article 2 of 1973 constitution:
    2. Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan and the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government.
    Ref: http://www.vakilno1.com/saarclaw/pakistan/Consitution/part_1.htm
    Pleas pay attention to: Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law
    Had some body brought it to court of law, and then we would have known it better.
    Your other questions are redundant.
    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 11:46 pm
    Your comment:
    “is that article 62 is, in essence, just as bad as the second amendment. applying it ‘voluntarily’ does not change that fact”
    I 100% AGREE WITH YOU. BOTH article 62 and 2nd ammendment are STUPID.
    Authors and signatories of 2nd ammendment did NOT cared for article 20 either:
    Article 20 of 1973 constitution:
    20. Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.
    Subject to law, public order and morality:-
    (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and
    (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
    Ref: http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part2.ch1.html

  188. Rashid

    PROPOSITION FOR BLOODY CIVILIAN

    From your posts you seem to be an attorney at law. Am I correct?
    If your answer is Yes, and you are practicing in Pakistan, preferably in Islamabad and licensed to appear in Supreme Court of Pakistan. I may hire you.

    I need attorney in Pakistan who can petition to Supreme Court, preferably to Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry to order Government of Pakistan to make Public proceedings of 1974 trial of Ahmadis that resulted in enactment of 2nd Constitutional Amendment. It has been more than 35 years since the amendment passed.

    I think, Pakistan’s official secrecy act expires in 25 years.
    Justice Hamud Ur Rehman commission report on cause of defeat in 1971 war, that contained Pakistan’s national security issues was declassified and made public few years ago.

    Let us work together for justice. Let the truth come out in public. Let’s see what all i.e. Yahya Bakhtiar, politicians, members of national assembly, Qadiani Jamaat representative their Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad, Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement representative Abdul Mannan Omar said and assess if ZAB decision was just or clear example of travesty of justice.

    This proposition is also open to Yasser Latif Hamdani.

  189. Rashid

    · @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 11:14 pm
    VOLUNTARILY APPLIED the said article
    “how do you know whether they were (potentially) in breach of article 62 or not?? then, how do you know whether they did or did not ‘voluntarily’ apply the said article to themselves?”
    Your above questions are answered in your next 2 questions.
    “you’ve only given the example of bhutto’s admission about drinking alcohol. i’m asking you the third time: when was alcohol criminalised?”
    Holy Quran/ Islam criminalized alcohol almost 1400 years prior to passing of 1973 Pakistan constitution. Government of Pakistan criminalized it in 1977.
    “ was it supposed to have retrospective effect?”

    Read:
    Article 2 of 1973 constitution:
    2. Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan and the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government.
    Ref:
    Pleas pay attention to: Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law
    Had some body brought it to court of law, and then we would have known it better.
    Your other questions are redundant.
    @Bloody Civilian
    October 26, 2009 at 11:46 pm
    Your comment:
    “is that article 62 is, in essence, just as bad as the second amendment. applying it ‘voluntarily’ does not change that fact”
    I 100% AGREE WITH YOU. BOTH article 62 and 2nd ammendment are STUPID.
    Authors and signatories of 2nd ammendment did NOT cared for article 20 either:
    Article 20 of 1973 constitution:
    20. Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.
    Subject to law, public order and morality:-
    (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and
    (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
    Ref:

  190. Bloody Civilian

    re. art. 2

    it is no answer to my questions. it’s just another example of the problem. the fact remains that other than the courts and parliament itself – in clear supremacy to the courts and all else – there is no other competent authority to decide or interpret ‘quran and sunnah’ under the constitution and laws of pakistan.

  191. Bloody Civilian

    … important to note that parliament has put itself under no legal obligation to proceed with any such process of interpretation or implementation.

  192. Bloody Civilian

    courts = supreme court, strictly…. it being the constitutional court.

  193. Rashid

    2nd ammendment proceedngs.

    BC,
    How we can force GOP to make public proceeding of 1974 trial of Ahmadis.
    Please my post:
    Rashid
    October 27, 2009 at 1:26 am

  194. Bloody Civilian

    @rashid

    you can go to the court with the contradiction with art. 20 (re. “freedom to profess” as per own choice not blocked or interfered with by the state). even if the court agrees with you that there is a contradiction or conflict, there is no guarantee that either the article or the amendment will be struck down by the court as a result. but it will certainly be a moral victory.

    as for your ‘proposition’… i’m afraid i’m only a student of law, unable to help you.

    regards

  195. Rashid

    QUESTION FOR LAWYERS ON THIS FORUM

    Can 2nd amendment be challenged in Pakistan Supreme Court?
    If yes, how?

    Pakistani political pundits opinion:
    NRO, even if passed by National Assembly, can be easily and successfully challenged and struck down by Pakistan Supreme Court. If this is the case then why not 2nd constitutional amendment.

    I really look forward to reply to this post, especially from YLH and BC.
    Thanks.

    @BC:
    “i’m afraid i’m only a student of law, unable to help you.”

    Dude, were you engaged in some moot court exercise?😉

  196. Bloody Civilian

    @Rashid

    i’m no expert of pakistani law, so you best post that one to YLH. under british law the court cannot force parliament to do anything. what happens inside parliament is nobody else’s business and is for only parliament to regulate or do with as it pleases. so hamood-ur-rehman is no anlaogy at all, since he nor his commission enjoyed the privilege or supremacy that parliament and its members do as to what takes place within parliament.

    whether the court could enquire into the procedural details of the voting process is also extremely doubtful. it is for the speaker to do so, in each house. once the amendment has presidential assent (which is as good as automatic), it;s the law.

    do read art. 239. esp the following sections which correct the wrong impression i had and gave in my previous post:

    (5) No amendment of the Constitution shall be called in question in any court on any ground whatsoever.

    (6) For the removal of doubt, it is hereby declared that there is no limitation whatever on the power of the Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament) to amend any of the provisions of the Constitution

  197. Bloody Civilian

    … you could argue that parliament is wrongly trying to give itself the authority of a constituent assembly under these sections, but whether and how that should persuade the court is beyond the grasp of a mere student like myself.

  198. Bloody Civilian

    re. NRO

    it is not an act of parliament. so does not apply.

  199. Rashid

    @BC,
    Thanks for your legal input.

    “so hamood-ur-rehman is no anlaogy at all, since he nor his commission enjoyed the privilege or supremacy that parliament and its members do as to what takes place within parliament”

    Are you saying that Pakistan Supreme Court can not force GOP to release in-camera (confidential) proceedings of 2nd amendment, even if the usual secrecy act time period (say 25 years or 30 years) has expired?

    Please clarify it to me.
    Thanks.

  200. yasserlatifhamdani

    The National Assembly can act as a constituent assembly.. without changing the basic structure of the constitution of 1973 which means:

    1. Parliamentary

    2. Democratic

    3. Federal

    4. Islamic

    So long as this constitution and the third republic remain in effect, the only challenge to the 2nd Amendment can come from within the parliament. Perhaps one day this would be possible when enough people have realized how utterly embarrassing the 2nd amendment is for Pakistan.

    Frankly I am not too concerned with this ridiculous branding of people so long as fundamental human rights and equality of citizenship of all citizens is protected wholly.

    The real challenge lies against Ordinance XX and other discriminatory nonsense introduced by General Zia… which is ultra vires the constitution.

  201. Majumdar

    without changing the basic structure of the constitution

    Something similar to Seervai and Keshavanand vs State of India.

    Regards

  202. Rashid

    @ YLH:
    “So long as this constitution and the third republic remain in effect, the only challenge to the 2nd Amendment can come from within the parliament”.

    Are you saying someone who is affected by 2nd amendment should give up hope of getting justice, and even hope of getting 1974 proceedings public?

    If you are willing to move Pakistan Supreme Court to get 1974 proceedings public, it will be a great help to effectees of 2nd amendment.

    YLH, if attorneys like you also don’t see any chance of redress, then I guess only some ACT OF GOD will deliver justice by either making proceedings public or making 1973 constitution invalid and with it there won’t be any need left for 2nd amendment.
    When and how it will happen? Only time will tell.

    P.S. YLH, if you think some thing can be done regarding getting 2nd amendment proceedings public, we can talk. Thanks.

  203. yasserlatifhamdani

    Rashid sb,

    God does not help those who don’t help themselves.

    What I said was quite clear… the redress doesn’t lie in a court of law but parliament.

    The course before you and the other sub-sect of Jamaat Ahmaddiya is clear : Contest elections … fight the constitutional battle here. But you don’t even want to do that. Every election year the Qadiyani Jamaat sends out a directive forbidding Ahmadis from voting … well such boycott is not helping anyone.

    What is there to be scared of? If Ahmadis voted as a bloc (you far outnumber the Jamaat-e-Islami wallahs) and collaborated with the Shias and Christians and secular Pakistanis on a purely political basis, things could change… but you are scared that by speaking out and fighting constitutionally and politically you will endanger the community… well then keep sleeping.

    We are all in danger today. The entire Pakistani state faces a grave danger… so why aren’t you ready to make this sacrifice ? Justice must be seized… not begged for.

    As for the proceedings… I don’t see what good those proceedings will do … when the course of action lies elsewhere?

  204. yasserlatifhamdani

    Just to give you an example… the town of Rabwah with 95% Ahmadi population has a a non-Ahmadi MNA who has no reason to seek Ahmadi votes… because well they don’t vote.

  205. Rashid

    @yasserlatifhamdani
    October 27, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Dear let me tell you some reality, Lutf may not like it. Qadiani Jamaat are probably not more than 4-lakhs (400, 000) in whole of Pakistan. Among them, those who can vote are even less than half. Qadianis don’t vote as they don’t accept they their non-Muslims status. Only force that stopped Muslims conversion to Christianity, and subsequent Christian majority, at least in sizeable Muslim population areas, in Indian sub-continent during British Raj was Movement founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib. So, for Christians it is out of question to even consider any alliance with Qadianis. Moreover Qadianis learned a bitter lesson by getting involved in politics on their jamaat level in after math of 1971 elections, when they were stabbed by their savior ZAB in 1974.

    Your: “As for the proceedings… I don’t see what good those proceedings will do … when the course of action lies elsewhere?”

    As why I want proceedings to be made public…. It will tell Pakistanis that Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) is INNOCENT BYSTANDER VICTIM. Unfortunately, because of 2nd amendment, Islamic Literature produced by LAM in last 130 years which is as valid today as it was 100 years ago for defense and propagation of Islam in this onslaught on Holy Quran, Rasul Allah SAWS, and Islam (I mean Islam and NOT Muslims). Issue is not that few thousand LAM aka Lahori-Ahmadis be declared Muslim. LAM members do NOT need some certification of a Muslim from Pakistanis who have no regard for Kalma-Tayyaba and are slaughtering each other. Allah SWT knows who is Muslim and who is not. The POOR VICTIM Islam can get help in this global conflict, if Muslims take advantage of literature on Islam produced by LAM. Unfortunately, because of this 2nd amendment, Pakistanis Muslims in particular and general Muslims of the world deprive themselves of this literature PRODUCED IN THE SERVICE OF ISLAM. And when LAM members with their own efforts take them to non-Muslim perpetrators on VICTIM i.e. Islam, these perpetrators can not refute such presentation of Islam, so they take out old weapon from their arsenal and say, “why should we accept what you guys are saying, when you are not considered Muslim by your own countrymen in Pakistan”. I have witnessed this times and again, especially on hardcore ANTI-ISLAM website run by famous US Jew: http://www.jihadwatch.com

    I am confident if LAM literature spreads in the world, peace will come to the world. This is the time of argument and reason. There is hadith, “Masih will argue with Dajjal”. These Dijjali nations need to be argued and invited to Islam, if Pakistanis and Muslims around the world want to live in peace and occupation free from USA, UK and other European countries.

    YLH sahib, I hope you got my point. Proceedings of 2nd amendment is nor for few Lahori-Ahmadis (LAM) in almost 2 billion Muslims.

  206. Rashid

    @yasserlatifhamdani
    October 27, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Dear let me tell you some reality, Lutf may not like it. Qadiani Jamaat are probably not more than 4-lakhs (400, 000) in whole of Pakistan. Among them, those who can vote are even less than half. Qadianis don’t vote as they don’t accept they their non-Muslims status. Only force that stopped Muslims conversion to Christianity, and subsequent Christian majority, at least in sizeable Muslim population areas, in Indian sub-continent during British Raj was Movement founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib. So, for Christians it is out of question to even consider any alliance with Qadianis. Moreover Qadianis learned a bitter lesson by getting involved in politics on their jamaat level in after math of 1971 elections, when they were stabbed by their savior ZAB in 1974.

    Your: “As for the proceedings… I don’t see what good those proceedings will do … when the course of action lies elsewhere?”

    As why I want proceedings to be made public…. It will tell Pakistanis that Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) is INNOCENT BYSTANDER VICTIM. Unfortunately, because of 2nd amendment, Islamic Literature produced by LAM in last 130 years which is as valid today as it was 100 years ago for defense and propagation of Islam in this onslaught on Holy Quran, Rasul Allah SAWS, and Islam (I mean Islam and NOT Muslims). Issue is not that few thousand LAM aka Lahori-Ahmadis be declared Muslim. LAM members do NOT need some certification of a Muslim from Pakistanis who have no regard for Kalma-Tayyaba and are slaughtering each other. Allah SWT knows who is Muslim and who is not. The POOR VICTIM Islam can get help in this global conflict, if Muslims take advantage of literature on Islam produced by LAM. Unfortunately, because of this 2nd amendment, Pakistanis Muslims in particular and general Muslims of the world deprive themselves of this literature PRODUCED IN THE SERVICE OF ISLAM. And when LAM members with their own efforts take them to non-Muslim perpetrators on VICTIM i.e. Islam, these perpetrators can not refute such presentation of Islam, so they take out old weapon from their arsenal and say, “why should we accept what you guys are saying, when you are not considered Muslim by your own countrymen in Pakistan”. I have witnessed this times and again, especially on hardcore ANTI-ISLAM website run by famous US Jew: www dot jihadwatch dot com

    I am confident if LAM literature spreads in the world, peace will come to the world. This is the time of argument and reason. There is hadith, “Masih will argue with Dajjal”. These Dijjali nations need to be argued and invited to Islam, if Pakistanis and Muslims around the world want to live in peace and occupation free from USA, UK and other European countries.

    YLH sahib, I hope you got my point. Proceedings of 2nd amendment is nor for few Lahori-Ahmadis (LAM) in almost 2 billion Muslims.

  207. Jay

    Rashid:

    This is where you got it wrong. For some reason, you look to Pakistan as a source and validation of Islam for its spirit and strength. Anyone who can read a few words of Quran from any translation, it does not take long to see the parallels of Judiac nature of the Muslims in Pakistan and the Jews in Chapter – Cow (second chapter) and elsewhere:

    2:61. And [remember] when you said: “O Moses, indeed we cannot endure but one kind of food; pray, then, to thy Sustainer that He bring forth for us aught of what grows from the earth – of its herbs, its cucumbers, its garlic, its lentils, its onions.” Said [Moses]: “Would you take a lesser thing in exchange for what is [so much] better? Go back in shame to Egypt, and then you can have what you are asking for!” And so, ignominy and humiliation overshadowed them, and they earned the burden of God’s condemnation: all this, because they persisted in denying the truth of God’s messages and in slaying the prophets against all right: all this, because they rebelled [against God], and persisted in transgressing the bounds of what is right.

    –by extension, Pakistani society is unique in not following God’s Messages of economics, good governance, civics, science, public health, etc. etc. and quite apt at slaying such messengers [pun intended]

    62:5. THE PARABLE of those who were graced with the burden of the Torah, and thereafter failed to bear this burden, is that of an ass that carries a load of books [but cannot benefit from them]. Calamitous is the parable of people who are bent on giving the lie to God’s messages – for God does not bestow His guidance upon such evildoing folk!

    [Translation: Muhammad Asad]

  208. Jay

    Rashid:

    You apparently believe in divine justice and seem at pain for the injustice of Pakistani society. See for yourself in the verse below. Who comes to mind when the moral law comes to its natural conclusion, i.e. for both the ruled and the ruler?

    27:82. And when the judgment becomes due against them (-the unjust) We shall bring forth for them a (grossly) materialistic person which will rule over them …

  209. Majumdar

    Rashid mian,

    Only force that stopped Muslims conversion to Christianity, and subsequent Christian majority, at least in sizeable Muslim population areas, in Indian sub-continent during British Raj was Movement founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib.

    To the best of my Eastern Bengal too was a Muslim majority area and there was no influence of MGAQ in that region. But there was no conversion to X-tianity in that region. Your point above seems to be invalid.

    Regards

  210. yasserlatifhamdani

    First of all, Qadianis outnumber Lahoris 8 to 1 as far as I know and I am talking about Lahore included.

    Secondly the total population of Qadianis as far as I know ranges from 3 to 4 million in Pakistan.

    Third- if Qadianis and Lahoris are not willing to ally with the Christians to make Pakistan a better place for all people, what is happening to them will continue to happen indefinitely.

    Political alliance does not mean religious concurrence.

  211. Rashid

    @Majumdar sahib:

    If i start providing details, my post will become religious, and will violate blog policy.
    Suffice to say, you may go to official website of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement and see literature produced by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saib and his students, for their discussions, arguments, and publications in defense and superiority of Islam. In India, UK at height of her global power, and other European Christians countries. Check for yourself both Urdu and English collections:
    www dot aaiil dot org

  212. Rashid

    @YLH sahib:
    “Secondly the total population of Qadianis as far as I know ranges from 3 to 4 million in Pakistan.”

    This is just vulgarly exagerated figures, just the way their claim of 200 Million in world. Including 80 million in India. (Wonder howcome another Muslim country for Muslims 160 millions Muslims and 80 million Qadiani-Muslims, has not been carved out of India). If you have time watch their MTA programs or see photos of their annual Jalsah (gathering) in different cities of the world, you will see the same Punjabi faces and hear the same punjabi accent. Simple reason, they all travel from one European country to another for the occasion. Anyways, i won’t say more, else i will be accused of “bashing”.

    “Third- if Qadianis and Lahoris are not willing to ally with the Christians to make Pakistan a better place for all people, what is happening to them will continue to happen indefinitely”

    I already answered why Qadianis won’t ally with Christians…. as far as Lahoris are concerned they are NOT into politics. They use to vote before 1974 on individual basis. Thou they all supported, like every Indian Muslim, politically and otherwise the independence movement.

  213. yasserlatifhamdani

    No Qadiyanis I know have ever claimed that they are 80 million in India or that they are 200 million world over. The largest single population was in Pakistan till mass conversions in Africa… and India has a handful descendants of the 313 left in Qadiyan to protect their holy places in 1947.

    I am not interested in watching MTA etc etc, but I do know that their salana jalsas have a multi-national and multi-cultural feel… and I believe Sierra Leone is has a significantly large Ahmadi population…

  214. yasserlatifhamdani

    Also… if you choose to be non-political don’t complain about 1974.

  215. Rashid

    @YLH sahib:
    “No Qadiyanis I know have ever claimed that they are 80 million in India or that they are 200 million world over.”

    It is obvious to me that you have not read Qadianis yearly conversion/ population figures on their official websites and their newspapers/ publications, every year doubling, during last 10 years of their 4th Khalifa Mirza Tahir Ahmad.

    “Also… if you choose to be non-political don’t complain about 1974.”

    Does it mean VICTIM cannot ask for justice?
    Cannot complain of injustice?
    Does one have to be political to get justice?
    Does it mean movement for restoration of judiciary and CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry was in essence for politics?

    YLH sahib, I am sorry, I am little disappointed by your comment.

  216. Bloody Civilian

    @Rashid

    as YLH has explained, parliament has the legal power to do injustice without any other body having oversight over it nor the power to quash an act of parliament. an injustice done by parliament can only be corrected by parliament itself.

    but what you forget is that the supremacy that parliament enjoys is on behalf of the people of pakistan and because it is the only state institution that is directly elected by the people. this is the essence of democracy.

    you can either join us in the effort to correct the injustice through a political, educational and social struggle… or stick to the two tendencies that i’ve seen evidence of (please go back and re-read your last 12 posts): a) not able to put aside religious and sectarian differences for the common cause of justice, democracy and progress, and b) be so consumed by bitterness and negativity that you name-call and malign 170million people en masse.

    you choose.

  217. Bloody Civilian

    you yourself claim that the 2nd amendment involved fraud, concealment and perhaps misleading of parliament’s true intent. in any case, the voters had nothing to do with it since the issue came out of the blue and had never been put to the people as any part or even a remote suspicion within ppp’s or any mainstream party’s election manifesto. and these were the parties people voted for. so, unless you’re a defeatist pessimist, why would you not work to educate the poor people of a country that you (probably) grew up in.

  218. yasserlatifhamdani

    My dear Rashid sb,

    I have read Qadiyani Jamaat’s literature and I have never come across any such claim from them. However… BBC I believe claimed a figure of 3 million Qadiyani Ahmadis in Pakistan in 2002 elections.

    Now… the problem with the Ahmadis is that they don’t want to fight it out politically … because it requires sacrifice. Organize – join forces with Christians and Shias (the groups that Ahmadis dislike) and then mount a challenge on a purely secular basis.

    There is no point whining… if you don’t have what it takes to put your money where your mouth is.
    You deserve it then.

  219. Rashid

    @BC sahib:
    I want to clarify myself.

    Your: “a) not able to put aside religious and sectarian differences for the common cause of justice, democracy and progress,”

    It is obvious to me that you are NOT aware with Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. LAM presents Islam as NON-sectarian religion. LAM is ONLY bunch of Muslims in ENTIRE Muslim world (which collectively) hold belief that EVERY RECITER of Kalam-Shahada is a MUSLIM, and NO one has right to declare that person as non-Muslim. LAM believes justice, democracy, and progress can ONLY be achieved with rational, tolerant, peaceful, inspiring, non-sectarian understanding of Islam.
    I am unable to figure why you think I encourage religious and sectarian differences.
    It is true some times I do ‘call spade a spade’, just to let reader know what is the real truth.

    Your: “ b) be so consumed by bitterness and negativity that you name-call and malign 170million people en masse”

    I do NOT mean to malign 170 million Pakistanis. I am sure you understand if such expression comes out of a pen (keyboard) of VICTIM of injustice in a society. Probably, you are unable to relate to some one whose daily life is a ‘criminal act’ in the country, founded on lofty principles of Islam. Probably, you are unable to relate to people whose ancestors fought and died along with Syed Ahmad Shaheed and Shah Ismail Shaheed at Balakot, and whose ancestors sacrificed and spent time in jails during independence movement for creation of Pakistan. Even Holy Quran permits victims to complain and express his/ her anger.

    Your: “so, unless you’re a defeatist pessimist, why would you not work to educate the poor people of a country that you (probably) grew up in.”

    Yes, I do want to educate poor people of Pakistan and Muslims in general. This is the reason I am seeking legal help to get proceedings of 2nd amendment get public. Both your, mine and everyone on this forum has the same objective. Only approach is different. As long as goal is same we should support each other. My approach is to bring change in thinking of Pakistanis and Muslims. That change will be lasting and peaceful.

  220. Rashid

    @YLH sahib:
    “I have read Qadiyani Jamaat’s literature and I have never come across any such claim from them.”
    To me it is obvious you have not read what I have read, and I know Qadianis much more than an outsider like you. I leave it here.

    “ However… BBC I believe claimed a figure of 3 million Qadiyani Ahmadis in Pakistan in 2002 elections.”
    Who gave this figure to BBC??? Qadianis!!!

    “Now… the problem with the Ahmadis is that they don’t want to fight it out politically … because it requires sacrifice. Organize – join forces with Christians and Shias (the groups that Ahmadis dislike) and then mount a challenge on a purely secular basis”

    As I said previously, Qadiani group of Ahmadis are still licking wounds of their political activism in 1971.
    Lahori Group of Ahmadis always had a different approach. Their focus is different. Their focus is to produce quality literature on Islam that EMPOWERS Muslims like you and everyone of 2 billion to do JIHAD WITH PEN.
    BTW: for the record: Lahore group of Ahmadis do NOT dislike Christians and Shias. Please correct yourself. Thank you.

    Your: “There is no point whining… if you don’t have what it takes to put your money where your mouth is.”

    I am ready to put MONEY, if you can help me find some Supreme Court attorney who can move PSC to get 2nd amendment proceedings published by GOP.

    Your: “You deserve it then”
    YLH bahi, this is not nice.

  221. Bloody Civilian

    Rashid sb

    i don’t care whether you belong to LAM, MEEM or NOON… let alone your claim that they’re better than everyone else who, themselves, are better than the rest.

    whose daily life is a ‘criminal act’

    lets deal with that first. challenge the laws (relevant sections of the penal code etc) first… leave the constitution till later. isn’t that a rational and practical approach to take

  222. Bloody Civilian

    …. suppose the proceedings were declassified by the GoP. then what? what would be your argument? why is that argument not possible without the transcripts?

    that’s a legitimate first question any attorney would ask you at the outset. so lets have the answer.

  223. Rashid

    @BC sahib:

    “i don’t care whether you belong to LAM,… let alone your claim that they’re better than everyone else who, themselves, are better than the rest.”

    I don’t know how you came to the conclusion LAM is better than rest?
    Personally, I do consider any person who respects other persons a better person.
    And it is a recorded fact that LAM consider all reciters of Kalma-Shahada as Muslim.

    “whose daily life is a ‘criminal act’
    lets deal with that first. challenge the laws (relevant sections of the penal code etc) first… leave the constitution till later. isn’t that a rational and practical approach to take”

    It s true. If any Ahmadi be it a from Lahori or Qadiani group, says Salam Alikum (Muslim salutation) in morning, also used by Hindus, Christians, and Siks in Pakistan, is a Criminal Act. Calling place of their Islamic worship a Mosque is a Crime. If some one hears Ahmadi giving Call for Prayer (Azan) is Crime. If some one sees Ahmadi offering prayer (Namaz/ Salat) is a Crime. For Ahmadi going for Hajj is crime. This in fact is worse than day of Sikh rulers Ranjeet Singh. In his time mosques were uses as stables and Muslims were not allowed to give call for prayer (Azan).
    Unfortunately, all Penal Laws to prosecute these “Criminal Offences” are protected 2nd amendment.

  224. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 28, 2009 at 2:31 am
    “suppose the proceedings were declassified by the GoP. then what? what would be your argument? why is that argument not possible without the transcripts?
    that’s a legitimate first question any attorney would ask you at the outset. so lets have the answer.”

    Brother BC:
    You don’t know what I know. I know what actually happened in Pakistan National Assembly in 1974. LAM representative was my uncle. LAM representative team was staying in my parent’s home at few minutes walk from Old National Assembly Hall, next to Pakistan State Bank Head Quarters, Islamabad. I know even what actually happened inside the Cabinet Meetings of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. ZAB Minister, Malik Jaffar Khan, MNA from Attock, a former Qadiani, who had upto high school education in Qadian, friend of my Uncle, whom I have met in my home, gave daily reports of what was going on in ZAB cabinet meetings, how Mufti Mahmud (father of Fazul Rehman) impressed upon ZAB to also declare LAM a non-Muslim, ZAB was NOT initially willing to do that, but when he came to know LAM members are only few thousand he changed his mind. You may not know decision was already made in ZAB cabinet even when trial had NOT ended. Qadiani’s representative their Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad was still being grilled by Yaya Bakhtiar. LAM representative was the first to testify on first day, and couple of hours on 2nd day. Qadiani representative was grilled for FEW DAYS.
    If 2nd amendment proceedings become public, people can bring it up on media and there is chance to redress at least LAM.

  225. Rashid

    CORRECTION:
    Rashid
    October 28, 2009 at 4:06 am @BC sahib:
    I don’t know how you came to the conclusion LAM is better than rest?

    IT SHOULD BE:
    I don’t know how you came to the conclusion, THAT I CLAIM, LAM is better than the rest?

    Thanks.

  226. Rashid

    WHERE IN THE WORLD ARE Kashif, Dr Jawwad Khan and other dudes of Jamaat-Islami???

    I hope readers have noticed “owners of Islam” like of Kashif and Dr Jawwad Khan sahibans are NOWHERE to be seen to on NEUTRAL FORUM to defend 2nd Constitutional amendment to Pakistan’s 1973 Constitution. Their visible absence supports thesis that they will only speak and give their arguments where they have PHYSICAL MAJORITY and they can INTIMIDATE the opponent. This supports the notion that their arguments are hollow and superficial. I wonder if this is the case then how they will invite the intellectuals in Dajjali Nations.

  227. Jay

    Rashid: “Even Holy Quran permits victims to complain and express his/ her anger.”

    Fatwas and its likes e.g 2nd amendment are most frequently used to spew venom and hate at their victims. There is no room for such attacks in Quran. The target of a fatwa, on the other hand, is protected to speak up against such hate-mongerers:

    4:148. Allâh does not like the public utterance of the hurtful speech, except (it is by) one who has been done injustice to. And Allâh is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

    16:116. And do not say because of the lies which your tongues utter, `This is lawful and that is unlawful,’ lest you should forge a lie against Allâh. Those who forge lies against Allâh will never attain the goal.
    16:117. (Though in forging lies) they may enjoy themselves for a brief spell in this life, yet a grievous punishment awaits them (in the Hereafter).

    Moral laws are omnipresent and shutting eyes to lessons of history is ignorance, even in the name of a secular forum.

    By quoting verses, I am not challenging the secular nature of this post, but only providing evidence from original sources which were used to begin with in formulation of the 2nd amendment.

  228. Bloody Civilian

    Rashid

    there is chance to redress at least LAM

    i believe your forsaking principle for a legal technicality will be disastrous. esp, when the redress is not available through the court (it does not have the power) but must be through parliament.

    you’re not protesting against being a victim of discrimination but one of mistaken identity. your objection is not to discrimination but that the perpetrators were not discriminating enough.

    to me this is a hopeless stand to take, to say the least. it can only serve to strengthen the disease (ie the state interfering in matters of faith) rather than treating it. i’m interested in the latter.

    i can only ignore discriminatory generalizations like: LAM is ONLY bunch of Muslims in ENTIRE Muslim world and reciters of Kalma-Shahada are required to be MUCH MORE TOLERANT, PEACEFUL, LOVING than non-reciters!!

    i don’t know and am not interested in what you mean by “Islamic ideology of Pakistan” or her being a ‘land for kalma reciters’. i know there is an idea of pakistan. and it is strong. but it has nothing to do with ideology… of any kind. the idea is no more or less than 170million pakistanis and their entirely human needs and rights. a good articulation of the idea is jinnah’s speech of 11 august 1947. far too many of your statements and ideas go against that articulation of very simple principles and threaten what it stands for.

  229. Bloody Civilian

    Jay

    but only providing evidence from original sources which were used to begin with in formulation of the 2nd amendment

    and as long as you keep doing that the mullah shall remain empowered and justified in claiming supremacy over all else.

  230. Jay

    That’s exactly the point. Mullah selectively uses the source of his religion to suit its needs and nurture the polemic that it thrives on. And rest of us “dare not” go near the “holy book”. Just that he can recite a foreign language, he creates a moral monopoly for himself and creates a facade of psuedo piety.

    Intellectual arguments against Mullah are both secular and religious. Its just that no one takes them up.

  231. Bloody Civilian

    i’m only concerned with human and fundamental rights. other than that as long as we have democracy and rule of law (ie supremacy of parliament and independence of judiciary), i don’t mind what debates, arguments and conclusions take place. my opinion will just be one of many and i’ll be happy to accept the verdict of the majority subject to the non-negotiables i’ve already mentioned above.

    Mullah selectively uses the source of his religion to suit its needs and nurture the polemic that it thrives on

    if he is – and he obviously is – driven by his own vested interest, then why would he listen to even the most elegant argument? you’re relying on people’s honesty,, whereas i insist on a bare minimum non-negotiable set of rights and freedoms when it comes to public law…. which are (or ought to be) universal. i for one am not prepared to allow these to be struck down by a mere interpretation of a particular text. i’d rather base my argument on the universality of these freedoms and rights. if a domestic majority has moral force behind it to the extent of it being a majority, then a global majority should have even more of the same. and once the rights/issues are no longer about the very core of human nature and instincts… i’d happily give way to the domestic, local, specific and even peculiar (my pov being just another pov).

  232. Rashid

    @Bloody Civilian
    October 28, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    “you’re not protesting against being a victim of discrimination but one of mistaken identity. your objection is not to discrimination but that the perpetrators were not discriminating enough”

    No. I am protesting against both ‘being a victim of discrimination’ AND ‘one of mistaken identity’. It will be great if LAM get relief for both. It is true that like rest of schools of thought (except LAM which in fact is just a movement/ organization with focus on presenting Islam to the Western world), Qadiani Jamaat is GUILTY of discrimination. Unfortunately, LAM is discriminated by Qadiani Jamaat and rest of schools of thought in Pakistan. LAM in first place is discriminated because of reasons and environment created by Qadiani Jamaat. On YouTube there is 3 parts speech of Mufti Mahmud (leader of opposition and religious parties in 1974 Parliament). Right or wrong he provides Qadiani Jamaat beliefs as cause of 2nd amendment. Nowhere he has raised any objection on LAM beliefs. Check youtube: Mufti Mahmud – Declaration of Ahmadis as Non-Muslim (1 of 3)
    BC I think you are also taking discriminatory stand. You don’t want LAM to get redress and justice, unless it supports the Qadiani Jamaat, which discriminated LAM, and because of its practices LAM suffered.

    “to me this is a hopeless stand to take, to say the least. it can only serve to strengthen the disease (ie the state interfering in matters of faith) rather than treating it. i’m interested in the latter”

    May be you are having lofty goals. I am asking for the bare minimum. I don’t think Pakistani Nation has moral strength to deliver what you are asking. At least in the foresee able future.

  233. Bloody Civilian

    Rashid

    You can either take the proper way, or a shortcut.. not both. there is no “AND” about it.

    similarly, either i too am discriminating against you… or i’ve “lofty goals”. can’t be both.

    make up your mind.

  234. AZW

    @ Jay:

    I wanted to remind you that for one moral argument you pick out of Quran or Sunnah, the right wing will read like a parrot their made to order justification of every discrimination they will perpetrate in the name of religion.

    However I believe Bloody Civilian’s pithy rejoinder is quite sufficient here. And this is why I firmly believe that our efforts to find a “right” balance of Islam in Pakistan is going to lead us nowhere.

    However I wanted to appreciate the quotes of Syed Abu-ala-Moudoudi that you have mentioned in your previous replies. They show how parochial and narrow minded the mindset of this ideology has always been. Care to do some more research and convert it into a full write up here on PTH? Trust me, it will be eagerly followed.

    Regards,

    Adnan

  235. Amna

    @ Jay

    Do u have online refrences for your quotes? Could give a link? I have used ur references here

    http://rupeenews.com/2010/07/18/awami-league-bans-maududis-tafsir-ul-quran-removes-religious-books-from-23000-state-libraries/

    I had come across two books Bahisti Zewar and Ghuniyatul Talibeen in young age. It was so disgusting and against human nature that i used to think how can women just be “objects of sexual gratification and mute maids” only. Why they have to go against their own likes\dislikes and comfort.