The way we are treated at US airports

Word of advice for Washington – in your efforts to win the battle against the terrorists, don’t humiliate your friends, says Bilal Qureshi

After spending about a year in Pakistan, I arrived back home, that is back in the States last night. Well, as I was at the last stop before exiting the immigration area at Dulles Airport, I was asked to come to a separate area without giving me any reason for it.

I went to the separate area and there were dozens and dozens of people from Pakistan, India , Bangladesh , and couple of families from Africa.

First, I was confused as I had been traveling for about 24 hours (without any sleep) and because I was tired and fatigued, it took me a while to grasp that all of us in that room were dark colored Asian, and most probably all of us were Muslims (perhaps with one or two exceptions) and this made me very upset.

I kept asking the big bulky guys in uniform about the reason for pulling me out, but no answer was given. This is not the way to treat Americans, even if they have Muslim names.

I am not bothered by the special measures that the United States government has put in place to prevent the bad guys from entering the country. I am all for it, but the U.S. government should learn to differentiate between law abiding U.S. citizens like myself and those who don’t like America. What bothered me the most was that I was detained for three hours without any reason. My luggage was also opened, but once again, I was not told why my entire luggage was searched. This is not right, and this should not happen in America.

America can do better and America must not lower its standards in this fight.

Before last night’s horrible experience, I was not sure what it meant when people suggest that the United States has not been able to win the hearts and minds of Muslims, at least so far. Now, I can understand this failure. Also, wherever I went in Pakistan , people asked me about the ‘bad’ treatment that Pakistanis (or Muslims) face in America, especially when they travel, but I always told Pakistanis that this notion of Muslims not being treated fairly in America is wrong.

But now after last night, I am not so sure about it.

Couple of years ago, I remember friends talking about an organization that was set up by Muslim lawyers in America to fight back against harassment that Pakistanis and Muslims encounter at American airports, but I paid no attention to that effort at the time. Today, I understand why Muslims, especially Pakistanis have been complaining about the way they feel they are treated in America. I too was upset last night to see that even non-US. Citizens were exiting the airport without any problem, and the U.S citizens like me were subjected to additional questioning and luggage search without any reason.

As a friend of progressive forces, and as an American who is proud to be an American, I urge the United States government to re-consider this policy of secondary searches and questioning when someone tries to enter America. This is not the right way to make friends with people who are needed to on our side in this fight to defeat the terrorists.



Filed under Pakistan, USA

138 responses to “The way we are treated at US airports

  1. Mustafa Shaban

    I completely sympathize with you Bilal….It happens a lot in western countries. This needs to stop and it gets a lot worse than you think. But remember one thing, this is all propoganda against Islam. They want people to believe that muslims are terrorists and want people to believe they are. This ofcourse allows them to achieve thier imperial ambitions abroad. Thing is Al Qaeda is a orginization created by CIA, once the soviets fell the US needed to create a new ”enemy” to fight so that they can boost thier military might and achieve thier imperial ambitions. 9/11 was an inside job…..dunt beleieve me??

    Then watch this: (good documentaries listed here, watch the ones below first and then go to this site for some more info)

    Loose Change (must watch):

    Who killed John O Neill? (jus for some info…interesting incident
    Read the articles, you can search
    specifically for certain topics on the left hand bar. Also read Stephen Lendmens articles concerning innocent imprisonment of muslims. Bonobashi if this site is not credible and scholarly then I dont know what is. Hope you find it interesting and see it with an open mind. By the way you have to narrow the search on the site to find articles relating to certain topics.

  2. Mustafa Shaban

    World reknown expert scientists, professors, architects, physicists and experts of all fields are beginning to believe all this and are coming to realize the truth, some of them knew it from the beginning and are the ones who brought stuff to us in the first place. These are no ordinary people but experts in thier field so there is no denying the info.

  3. Mustafa Shaban

    By the way while my comment is being moderated please make sure the links are there as they are important

  4. LOL Maybe if you were strip searched and anal probed you might not be so “proud to be american”

    You are very naive if you think that the americans have any desire to be our “friends” They are only interested in the welfare of their own people. Muslims are no more than animals to them.

  5. I’d like to add that, ironically, I have to use an american proxy site to be able to access this website. Looks like worldcall has blocked again!

  6. Hossp

    I travel regularly within the US and internationally. I was in Pakistan just three weeks ago for a week long trip. So far I have never been pulled over for any extensive questioning or search. But it can happen and when it does, I will take it in stride.

    Most of the People get pulled over because they lie when answering questions. If you have a US passport, just remember that the Immigration officer has all the info about you right in front of him/her. If you are not candid in answering questions and the officer sees a hint of untruth or attempt to twist something, he/she will pull you over.

    Recently, Indian actor Shahrukh Khan was pulled over and that surprised me as he is a frequent visitor to the US. My personal opinion was that he tried to be a smart ass with the officer, just to put up a show for Pakistani and Indians fellow travelers and that did not sit well with the immigration officer. Officers are not trained to exercise their judgment in a situation. They have many people waiting in line and they send people for further questioning by some other designated persons.
    Rule of thumb: Don’t lie even for something you think insignificant.

  7. Luqmaan

    Any number of reasons are given to justify these searches, including “….and there have been no other attacks after September 11…”

    Two wrongs don’t make one right. And the fools don’t realise that really *trained* terrorists (whom they are trying so hard to catch) will answer all their questions perfectly to their satisfaction and simply walk out of the airport.

    Its the jack ass SRK who makes a fool of himself trying to be pompous. Terrorists are smarter.

    That there have been no significant attacks on the US is because the terrorists have not tried. What they wanted to achieve -they have (fear/terror).

    Its all in the minds. The recent Mumbai attacks in which a hundred (or two hundred or whatever) when seen against the billion odd population of India (where I belong), are – but less than a pin prick. They do absolutely no damage to India other than grab news headlines.

    Coming back to the topic, the way to show them how it feels, every airport in every muslim country can copy the security arrangements of the US airports and return the favors in equal measure.

    That’s how you can educate these morons. Will our governments (our president was frisked) have the guts to do it (to them)?


    Note: I don’t in any way support terrorism.

  8. Luqmaan

    Our sub-serviant attitude towards the white man has brought this upon us. Over the centuries our self deprecating mental makeup has allowed us to be treated like third class humans.

    To be accepting billions of $s of aid for our survival even today….. how can we blame anyone if he treats us like animals.


  9. I absolutely agree with you Bilal. There are better ways to catch terrorists than by humiliating law-abiding US citizens such as you and I. So far, I have never been taken aside or asked uncomfortable questions, perhaps because I usually travel to and from Pakistan with my parents. But I can understand how humiliating it can be. My younger brother, who is a freewheeling artistic type, was asked if he had trained at a madrassah and other such stupid questions. He shrugged it off, but it can be very painful to keep being singled out as representing something that you don’t agree with at all.

  10. Gorki

    “As a friend of progressive forces and as an American who is proud to be an American……”

    First of all let me say this upfront; as a fellow American I too am outraged at how Bilal Qureshi Sahib was treated when he arrived home in the USA. I understand his indignation, which he said was less at the way he was treated but more so at its obvious arbitrary and discriminatory nature.

    Having said that I was amused to read the above article from Mr. Qureshi since the same ‘proud American’ was arguing the following on the PTH only a few days ago:

    “Put an end to American Raj in Pakistan.
    Whereas, there is an alternative system that would not only eradicate corruption, solve the economic miseries ……..
    This solution is not designed by the mind of any human, in fact this is a solution provided to us from our Creator. And our Lord has chosen Khilafah as the only governing system for us that addresses all the problems encountered today.
    For centuries this system of Khilafah has been tested and the Muslims were the leading nation of the world when they ruled according to Shara’h.
    It is high time for the Muslims of Pakistan to rise up and reclaim the right to live according to the Book of Allah.”

    The irony of the reasons for his sudden change of heart is difficult to miss.

    Funny how the shoe feels when it is on the other foot for one has only to flip to his earlier article (Don’t let the Devil dazzle you) in which he was highly critical of everything American; he could barely suppress his glee at America’s recent missteps and misfortunes from the recent economic troubles to its absence of good diplomatic alternatives in dealing with regimes in North Korea and Russia.

    It is interesting to speculate the kind of reception that would have awaited Qureshi Sahib if he had first written a similar article about comrade Kim (calling him a ‘devil’) and then flying into Pyongyang as a ‘progressive friend of North Korea’. 😉

    Yet I am not writing this post to gloat over the less than hospitable treatment meted out to him. I truly am distressed at it because this is what the GWOT had done to us in the US. I am therefore writing the remainder of the post to point out what is at stake.

    Americans are a fiercely independent bunch and consider it a patriotic duty to call their government to accountability if and when they feel it is out of line. Unfortunately because of the paranoia that gripped the nation after 9/11, all kinds of human rights abuses and injustices were perpetuated upon law abiding citizens in our country. From minor inconveniences like asking certain people to not board a plane to major ones like unlawful arrests have come to light. In several shameful incidences citizens were even kidnapped and flown abroad to suffer rendition by foreign governments on a mere suspicion. In such a climate of fear and xenophobia, small liberal voices continued to warn that if we were not careful, we too would become like ‘them’ in effect saying that if we changed our own values as a nation due to 9/11, then this war would not even be worth fighting for. In those gloomy times it was such voices that made me most proud to be an American since to me such voices makes the idea of America worth fighting for.

    I want to believe that things are now changing for the better; they are still not perfect but America is again in most part a common home for all of us who came from all the corners of the world to enrich it. Qureshi Sahib may have suffered a few hours delay and a bruised ego but at the end of the day he was treated fairly by his nation.
    If he is still not satisfied with writing about it above he has the option to can call his local state senator’s office and in all likelihood he will receive a reply acknowledging his stated position.
    If he is an activist and wants to take it further, he can organize a citizens group to highlight this particular intrusion of his rights.
    If all else fails he has the right to file a civil suit against the state and confront the insensitive officers.

    While none of the above may be ideal, I write it to highlight one fact; that out of all the forms of government known to man on this planet; this one in the United States comes the closest to meet the most cherished aspiration of ALL its citizens; to be treated as equals; regardless of their race, beliefs ethnicity or religious backgrounds.

    This is more than one can say about the Khilafat that Mr. Qureshi was arguing for, not to long ago. As Mr. Qureshi correctly pointed out, he was piqued not so much at being subjected to a search but to being treated DIFFERENTLY.

    As an American he (correctly) expected to be treated as an equal to all others, as a matter of state principle. My problem is that his stated position (in favor of a Khilafat) is that it is an exact contradiction to this principle because such a government discriminates between believers and non believers; also as a matter of a state principal.

    That it is fair or not is immaterial. The principle of ‘separate but equal’ does not have the same ring of honesty as that of simple ‘equality for all’.

    Similarly there are those who (again rightly) call for the end to the GWOT and suggest dialogue and understanding to resolve outstanding differences between nations and peoples of the wider world. Yet they too like Mr. Qureshi, hold a different standard when discussing conflicts and differences dividing the people ‘back home’.

    Thus I think this is a moment of truth for Mr. Qureshi (and all those like him) who selectively espouse liberal ideas\peaceful coexistence in one setting yet continue to argue for the establishment of an archaic form of governing systems (or continued conflicts) for others ‘back home’.

    Such people must realize that if they enjoy the benefits that come with peace and citizenship in the liberal Western democracies themselves then it is dishonest for them to argue for something different for others in the home countries. These people can not continue to ride two horses forever.

    They must take a good look at themselves and decide who they are deep down and then have the courage to stand up for that they truly believe in.


  11. Just a clarification: Mohammad Bilal Qureshi of the Khalifah argument is not this writer who is just Bilal Qureshi.
    They just happen to have similar names.

  12. Hayyer

    Thanks for the clarification. I had wondered myself whether it was the same person writing both kinds of articles.

  13. Gorki

    Dear Raza:

    Thanks for pointing out that there are two different gentlemen named Bilal Qureshi who contribute to the PTH.

    In my eagerness to write a rejoinder to the above article I failed to inquire first whether I was indeed writing about the same person. Goes on to show how easily we pick up the bad habits from our adopted nation for in this instance I too was guilty of that all too American bad habit of shooting off my mouth first and stopping to ask any questions later.

    Obviously I made a fool of myself and for this I have no one else to blame but myself.

    My apologies to the PTH and Mr. Qureshi. I hope he will be kind enough to forgive this additional transgression against him by yet another fellow American.


  14. Anoop

    Come on. They were just doing a check up to save lives. Dont be so sensitive. Dont paint an image that america is non-secular. Look at countries like Saudi Arabia. No religion is even allowed to be practiced there. If you say something against the king, you are dead. Look at any muslim country and compare it with america. You will find all the reasons that you abandoned your countries and left for that distant land. I as an Indian am proud to give the example of India as having similar value system as america- Democracy,secularism,free press,etc.

  15. Pingback: Global Voices Online » Pakistan: The way we are treated at US airports

  16. Hayyer

    We have those principles not those practices. Ours are much worse.

  17. Puzzled

    I do not have anything ‘sensational’ to add to the comments by other contributors except that nations are free to choose their ways. When we embrace a country and call it home, we must abide by its rules and respect them too. At least in countries such as America, one can strive to change the laws if the change is required by the masses.


  18. mel

    Dear Anoop
    i think you are forgetting there is no such cast system like the one you have in India. The (achoots/shooders)lower class ones are not even allowed to sit in same level as the upper class ones. Same went in public and private schools. They are not allowed to some religious temples.(how pathetic)
    Your country is is secular by name , not in reality. We all know how well you treat your Sikhs, Christians and Muslims.
    And you guys cry foul when Indians are targeted in Australia on bases of their race.( they r known for being the soft targets in Aus) lol.
    Being targeted on the bases of your race is totally unacceptable in any way , shape or form. We should all stand united and oppose such acts.

  19. Luqmaan


    …my 2 cents worth….
    Yours is a fallacious argument.
    Two wrongs don’t make one right…..

    This fallacy involves the attempt to justify a wrong action by pointing to another wrong action. Often, the other wrong action is of the same type or committed by the accuser, in which case it is the subfallacy Tu Quoque. Attempting to justify committing a wrong on the grounds that someone else is guilty of another wrong is clearly a Red Herring, because if this form of argument were cogent, one could justify anything―always assuming that there is another wrong to point to, which is a very safe assumption.


  20. Luqmaan

    >>Anoop September 28, 2009 at 9:35 pm
    >>Come on. They were just doing a check up to save lives. Dont be so sensitive. Dont paint an image that america is non-secular. Look at countries like Saudi Arabia. No religion is even allowed to be practiced there. *****end of quote****

    1. Two wrongs don’t make one right (as above)
    2. How does one save lives by this?
    3. If one has bad intentions, would he not be prepared for the questions they are anyway going to ask? Would he not simple walk out of the airport while the irritated next guy will get detained because he said something silly?


  21. Anoop

    My constitution is secular. That is all that matters. No one is supposed to discriminate on the basis of caste. If they do they will be jailed. Murder is also prohibited here but they do happen. As in any other country in the world. Does Pakistan have a secular constitution? NO. Its called Democratic Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The name itself is contradictory. How can democracy and Islam go hand in hand?
    Australians hate us because of our skin and the fact that we are stealing their jobs. Understandable. We are being competitive and asking companies to shift their business to India and hence generating money. We are not having a begging bowl and asking for aid. If anyone from outside discriminates its out duty to stand together and protest. We dont sell our people to outside powers in return for money like Musharaff has done with hundreds of Pakistanis believed to have contact with militant groups.
    We are doing something about our problems. What are you doing? I think you also forgot that our prime minister is a Sikh,who got the position rejected by a Catholic(Sonia Gandhi) and was sworn in by a Muslim President(Abdul Kalam) in a nation of 80% Hindu. Can anything that remotely resembles this can happen in Pakistan or any other country? Even in the US this cant happen.

    the very fact that terrorists have not been able to get inside the US since 9/11 indicates that their method is working. If few hours of discomfort saves a life or hundreds of lives,as in 9/11, then that shouldn’t matter.

  22. Luqmaan

    Uh oh! another fallacious argument.

    There could be other reasons for terrorists not attacking the US, let alone “…. not been able to get inside………..”

    The point is that these methods don’t deter trained people.


  23. ralam420

    What about the way we’re treated at mosques, hotels and airports in our own country? It’s not just the Americans, I fear.

  24. Anoop

    Dont you think Al qeada had tried to get inside the US? Aren’t they trained?? I think their measure are working. A little discomfort wont really hurt anyone. People’s lives are at stake here. I am from India and live in India. I can understand how much 9/11 has hurt them and they have every right to protect their country in any means they choose. Let paksitan harass americans to get back. Who cares! They are not doing it to show off or showcase their anger. They are doing it to protect lives.

  25. Mustafa Shaban

    But who said that these terrorists are so large in number??? I am sure there are a few, and am damn sure that a security worth billions of dollars can keep them off USA. This is all a drama to implement a police state like the Nazis did in Germany! Hitler blamed the reichstag fire on the jews, next day they were persecuted and fear about hem was spread, and then people gave up thier civil liberties. Stalin said that the Soviet Union has capitalist ”sleeper” cells waiting to attack the people and in the end he took away thier liberties and it was a police surveillance state. Wait a second ”sleeper” cells? Havent I heard that term a few times in the last 8 years??? The only terrorists that successfully attack the US like on 9/11, are CIA and Mossad! I intellectualy challenge all PTH people on this claim. The same thing that happened in Germany and Russia is happening in the US in exactly the same way! Naomi Wolf proves this in her lectures and stuff!

  26. Mustafa Shaban

    Also do you people not notice that this abuse in US is not limited to muslims?? Sure muslims get checked the most, but a lot of normal christian and jewish americans are getting checked and under surviellance 2!

  27. Mustafa Shaban

    The things I talk about are proven, they are not ”conspiracy theories” or ”crazy nutty theories” they are scientifically proven factul theories.

  28. Luqmaan

    >Dont you think Al qeada had tried to get
    >inside the US? Aren’t they trained??

    If they have tried, then they are already inside.

    >I think their measure are working.

    It probably is just a co-incidence that no further attacks have been planned.

    The aim of any terrorist organisation is to spread terror and just that (fear). In mumbai a few hundred dead is nothing compared to a population of a billion. Its all theatrics. Its less than a pin prick. Its more politics than anything else.

    >A little discomfort wont really hurt anyone.
    >People’s lives are at stake here.

    The point being made (ad nauseum) is that the measures employed at the airports will not deter the people it is supposed to deter. Only harass some innocent people.

    >I am from India and live in India. I can >understand how much 9/11 has hurt them and

    I am from the same place. Lets be pragmatic. It doesn’t matter on which side of the border you come from. You can’t be more sensitive or insensitive one way or the other.

    >they have every right to protect their country in
    >any means they choose.

    By some sensible means, not this.


  29. i amyself am a US citizen,yet i am also pulled on the side travelling on domestic airlines; i understand and accept this, as i am from a country which is subservient to the empire, and lives on breadcrumbs thrown by the white people, they are not begging us to come to their country. we went there on our own accord; why should they respect us as equals, when we are not. i was there on the day of 9/11.and i saw america s attitude changed in one day. i have written a book on this particular feeling titled . SITAMGAR SITAMBAR,, my children still live in that country, and are able to lead a normal life there, so its ok, i am more apalled at the unfriendly unwelcoming attitude of arab people on arab airports, our muslim brethren.koi batlaao hum batlaayen kya?

  30. Gorki

    “i amyself am a US citizen…..”
    “why should they respect us as equals, when we are not…..”


    Basheer Sahib:

    In light of your first statement, I beg to disagree with your second one.

    What makes you feel that you are not equal?
    If you are a US citizen, then there is no they; you are one of us!

    This right (to be considered an equal, regardless of color creed race, sex or sexual preferences) was a hard won right; paid for by blood and sweat on the battlefields of Saratoga and Gettysberg; and on the school campuses of Little Rock and bus routes of Montgomery.

    Those heroes whose inheritors we all Americans are, fought their battles not only for themselves but on the behalf of all of us who take the sacred oath under the Stars and Stripes to the constitution of the United States of America.

    For their sacrifices those heroes deserve our utmost respect and there is no better way to show it than by claiming the rights and the duties of our citizenship in its entirety.

    Let it be known to everyone around that you too are a free citizen of a free land; that you too hold your head high and are beholden to no man but only to the constitution of the United States which was conceived amidst the following unforgetable words: “All men are created equal…”


  31. Luqmaan


    >as i am from a country which is
    >subservient to the empire,
    >and lives on breadcrumbs thrown by the
    >white people, they are not begging us to come to
    >their country. we went there on our own accord;
    >why should they respect us as equals,
    >when we are not

    Self deprecatory to the utmost degree.

    Do you actually believe that? No self respecting Pakistani or Indian would, IMHO.

    >they are not begging us to come to
    >their country.

    Without all the man power and brain power the Americans take from all over the world…..

    Someone on this list will phrase a better response surely…..


  32. Puzzled

    Just an observation – is Pakistan’s or India’s citizenship open for other nationalities?

    I feel that it is not fair to compare apples with oranges. Lets give citizenships to other colours, religions, and races, then whine about their treatment towards us.

    Pakistanis and Indians are working in NASA, Defence, Finance, Foreign Affairs, and every other sensitive agency in the Western coutries. Just imagine Americans, British, Germans or Australians working in such agencies either in India or Pakistan! Is that possible even in next 100 years?

    I guess we can be thankless at times!

  33. Bloody Civilian

    Let it be known to everyone around that you too are a free citizen of a free land; that you too hold your head high and are beholden to no man but only to the constitution of the United States which was conceived amidst the following unforgetable words: “All men are created equal…”

    reminds me of Anoop saying earlier: “My constitution is secular. That is all that matters.” interesting to note his position vis a vis, say, luqmaan’s on bilal qureshi’s predicament.

    many americans are quick to blame ‘the blacks’ for a ‘a victim mentality’ a mere 45 years after they got their legal (which does not mean political and social) rights. yet it took the noble words of the american constitution and the founding founders 200 years to translate in to civil rights for black americans.

    there is an black president today. it’s a most welcome development even if it would be juvenile to expect that to have any effect, in the short term, upon, say, the lobsided proportion of black americans at the wrong wide of the criminal justice system (from stop-and-search all the to death row.)

    mr basheer is a US citizen. both his views and experiences are no more or less than that of a US citizen. why should they be considered any less honest? or patriotic? is he a a cynic or a victim? if the latter, then is the former not understandable?

  34. Bloody Civilian

    my apolgies for the numerous typos.

  35. Bloody Civilian

    apologies. i give up!

  36. Bloody Civilian

    well… i’ve got to correct the more glaring typos:

    founding fathers

    from stop-and-search all the wayto death row.

  37. Anoop

    @neelum ahmad basheer,
    you dont need to feel inferior to anyone. But, what I am saying is dont get offended. These steps have good intentions. Whites are themselves not from America. They came from Europe. No difference between you and them. Dont let your kids feel inferior to anyone. Nobody is inferior or superior to anyone,anywhere.

    Let me remind you the Lady who rules the Biggest party in India is a Roman Catholic and Italian. She came from a far away land to become the most powerful woman in Asia. Do not equate Pakistan and India in any aspect. Please.
    The reason western employees dont work here is that India can satisfy the skill demands generated by the industry with its own population.

  38. D_a_n

    @ Anoop….

    scintillating stuff and all that…

    ‘Do not equate Pakistan and India in any aspect. Please.’

    If PTH management can somehow promise you that, will you then please leave us alone?

  39. Anoop

    Last time I checked this was a free country where we can view any website we choose to. If the administrators want to ban/delete my comments they can choose to. If my comments hurt then,well, I guess it has made an impact. 🙂
    Why develop a blog knowing anyone can access it? Start a private publication or a website where only Pakistanis can access. I am guessing its a pseudo name you are using. If I am right and if you are from the place I think you are,then you might not understand the meaning of free speech and thought and especially freedom of press. Forget about tolerance.
    You might have replied in such a manner to snub me but the message I am getting is different. Thank you for that.

  40. Bloody Civilian

    @’neelum ahmad basheer’

    i’m afraid i had read the name as ‘nadeem ahmad basheer’. i just noted that it is ‘neelum ahmad basheer’. so if neelum, my presumption about your gender is wrong… kindly accept my apologies.


    you dont need to feel inferior to anyone[….] No difference between you and them[….] Dont let your kids feel inferior to anyone[…..] Nobody is inferior or superior to anyone,anywhere[…..] Do not equate Pakistan and India in any aspect.

    in so far as consistency in itself is a virture… very admirable, indeed, sir. now if only bilawal would marry, say, an italian… if only to provide an occassion to further affirm your consistency.

    btw, i was curious to find out: why did sonia never wish to be PM?

  41. Anoop

    @Bloody Civilian,
    You gotta ask her that bro. Or sis. I am happy for the fact that she has given the job to the most qualified economist in India. I think she thought Dr.Manmohan Singh deserved the job more than her. Or that she was not qualified to be PM. She is the political head and PM takes care of the country. He has done a fabulous job. US nuke deal, RTI act,pushing the reservation of women in parliament,reserving 50% seats in panchayats for women, electing able individuals to lead important portfolios are the achievements. I’ve missed many I am sure. He is the most qualified head of a state in the world. Check out his profile. Amazing.

  42. D_a_n


    oh anoop!!! I have seen the folly of my ways..woe is me ..poor old repressed me!

    I am prostrate at the alter of your sagacity my liege…!

    To quote Henry II
    ‘ will no one rid us of the meddlesome newbies???’

    hark!!! Do I hear archeao ride again?? 🙂

  43. BC,

    Sonia Gandhi didn’t wish to be PM because her political opponents (the BJP) were using her foreign birth and Roman Catholicism against her, by saying that she was not “Indian”. So she did the politically smart thing by giving Dr. Manmohan Singh the office of PM. She is able to lead Congress without getting mired in attacks for not being “Indian” enough.

  44. Bloody Civilian


    indeed.. i should ask her. even if i would neither be the first nor the last…. nor the most important or relevant person to do so… and the least likely to get even a response. but the point is that it is not what sushma swaraj and her friends say that matters. it’s what the people of rae bareli and the supreme court of india say.

    her party claims it a political ‘renunciation’ in the religious (catholic?) and/or gandhian sense. she renunciated being the PM in favour of being the PM’s boss.

    Dr.Manmohan Singh deserved the job more than her. Or that she was not qualified to be PM

    i thought, in a democracy, winning an election was a qualification more important than a phd.

    She is the political head and PM takes care of the country.

    so, in that case, who is answerable to parliament…. on a day-to-day basis? the ‘political head’ or the head of govt? who has to face the music when and if things go wrong?

    pushing the reservation of women in parliament,reserving 50% seats in panchayats for women

    btw, in pakistan, there is a 20% minimum reservation for women in each house – lower and upper – and 33% at the tehsil, union council and district levels. i wonder what that says about pakistan applying, strictly, your own “That is all that matters” rule.

  45. Bloody Civilian


    re. my post of 5.05pm

    “many americans are quick to blame ‘the blacks’ for a ‘a victim mentality’”…. is meant to implicitly include, or should have explicitly included, most, if not all, of: ‘self-deprecation’, ‘low self-esteem’, ‘lack of ambition’, ‘laziness’, ‘being thick’ etc.

    i thought i should clarify.

  46. Archaeo

    Soon, D_a_n, soon. Anoop smells promising.

  47. Gorki

    @ BC:

    Your point is well taken, for all the rhetoric aside, a constitution and a country’s laws are only as good as people willing to back it up.
    Thus indeed India may have a great constitution, but a lot more needs to be done. People still get murdered for marrying the wrong person there.

    Even the US; where civil rights laws are applied aggressively, it would be foolish to take things for granted.

    Fortunately the South Asians immigrants in US often come with major skills and college level education; (often highly subsidized; thank you India 😉 )and so find it easy to move up the ladder quickly but as you pointed out, the black experience has still not been as happy as it could be.

    I remember that years ago in my training we had a very cheerful matronly african american secretary who would spoil us all like a mother hen, day in and day out.
    She often got invited to our semi formal working lunches for a sandwich and soda.

    Once when someone from India remarked what a great country the USA was, she took a deep sigh and remarked :
    ” I guess you are right, but make sure that in the USA you don’t be black, you don’t be a women and you don’t be poor”.

    That was only one of the few times I saw Michelle say something without a smile on her face; but she said it all in that brief sentence.


  48. i think i wrote something,based n reality and not fantacy.yes i have self respect and am proud f my pakistani origin but lets face it.we depend on america or rather the west for everything, from internet, cell phones to drones , mineral water to black water, who are we kidding? we cant even sight the eid moon properly, we are totally dependant on alms thrown to us by america,unless we become self sufficient in aata cheeni bijli pani education etc, we are nt their equal ,instead of getting romantic and emotional abt us against them, why not strive to make this pakistan so good that we never have t leave it and take residence in ther countries f the world.

  49. Luqmaan

    Puzzled wrote…….
    >Pakistanis and Indians are working in NASA,
    >Defence, Finance, Foreign Affairs, and every other
    > sensitive agency in the Western coutries.

    And finally they come back and become directors of research institutes back home. Teach the skills they learnt there to their juniors here, and the world goes round.

    >Just imagine Americans, British, Germans or
    > Australians working in such agencies either in
    >India or Pakistan! Is that possible even in next
    >100 years?

    Where on earth are you living Puzzled?

    There are all these and more nationalities working in our defense organizations helping us design everything from Fighter airplanes to vaccines.


  50. karun


    i am more apalled at the unfriendly unwelcoming attitude of arab people on arab airports, our muslim brethren

    this is what the U.S may be afraid, to what extent you would go to fulfill your notion of brotherhood and belogingness.
    Haven’t you answered the riddle yourself

  51. Bloody Civilian


    this is what the U.S may be afraid, to what extent you would go to fulfill your notion of brotherhood and belogingness

    and what exactly is that ‘extent’.. would you care to elaborate, kindly? what is the maximum that a non-arab/arab/muslim has to do in order to ‘belong’ or be part of the arab/muslim ‘brotherhood’…. that you think the US may be afraid of? ….that the ‘fear’ is of it is justified since the it even ‘answers the riddle’, according to you.

  52. Bloody Civilian

    …”has to do”… or could do

  53. Neelum ji
    Thanks for your impassioned and frank comments. The spirit of late Ahmad Basheer, your father is evident in the way you are exposing the bitter realities of our existence. The way Manto saheb would have written if he were live.

    We need a BIG reality check before anything else

    Great debate, I must say and thank God that no personal comments are being made of late. Something to cheer about!

  54. Luqmaan


    This latest post is much better than the previous one.

    Lets imagine that America stops all aid tonight. Will the countries involved – roll over and die?

    Quite the opposite.

    Who does this aid reach anyway ?

    BTW we pay for the cellphones, (not)the drones, the jets, web space, F16s, cars, SUVs, etc etc ***all out of out own pockets*** and at exorbitant prices.

    Its purely business.

    ****the following is not an india vs pak but just that I live in India and this is what I see & i cant see what the situation is in pakistan***

    We dont see too many imported cars here. Most of the toyotas and the fiats etc etc we see here are manufactured in factories in india
    We have our own space satellites and launchers.

    In fact we are even launching some western made satellites for them.

    We import fighter jets but with the understanding that the next batches are manufactured here.

    Many American and other companies from all over the world have back offices in india.

    We have surplus food stock for our billion plus people. The recent recession did hardly anything to us.

    I think if we plan carefully, we need not be dependent on the west at all.

    As a consequence of the sanctions imposed on us, the technology developed was so good that the sanctions were becoming embarrassments to the people who imposed them in the first place.

    I humbly request you all not to take this as an ind vs pak comparison.


  55. karun


    look at the statement: it has revulsion (these arabs are unfriendly and unwelcoming)
    at the same time(yearning) how much i would like them to welcome me because after all they are my brothers.

    Do you want preferential treatment because you belong to a specific brotherhood. Can’t i hear the viciousness of racism just beneath the veneer of sweet brotherhood.

    To treat and wish to be treated equally without any bias should be the hallmark of any civilized society.
    That applies to US also and i feel it successfully fulfills it (sans the airport perhaps) to a very large extent

  56. Bloody Civilian


    what is so wrong with the particular ‘yearning’, to use your word? disappointment becomes “revulsion”? ‘sweet brotherhood’, ‘vicious racism’??? what are you on about?

    you didn’t say what is the most that would justify causing the US to ‘fear’ it. “sans the airport”??? what is this discussion about then? the racist who is a wonderful guy ‘sans the hate’?

  57. Anoop

    @Bloody Civilian,
    you said,”i thought, in a democracy, winning an election was a qualification more important than a phd.”
    We are practicing a parliamentary democracy. The party can nominate anyone it chooses. Are you suggesting that Manmohan Singh is not a good PM? Who cares how he got the job. He is the right man for it. India is lucky to have some wonderful PMs. Vajpayee was one. This is the result of 62 years of democracy. In 60 years you may understand the feeling of having a non-corrupt PM. Just maybe.
    When I said she is the political head I meant that she takes care of all the politics related stuff. Dr.Manmohan has a free hand to do his job and not worry about the things that are not important. Atleast in India Sonia Gandhi didnt opt to become a President and lowering the prestige of the Chair as Asif Ali Zardair has done.
    Pakistan has 20% or whatever % reservation. Good for Pakistan. What is the use with all its reservations for women when army is gonna step in and remove the democratically elected Govt? A “democratically elected” president of Pakistan had said “In pakistan the best way to get to a foreign country or get a citizenship is to get raped”. I dont remember the exact quote. But, you must remember.
    I’ve said this before. The affair of the country is run by the PM. He is solely responsible. I’ve hoped this answers one of your questions.

    I am with Luqmaan on this one. India is fixing itself and fast.

  58. Bloody Civilian


    The affair of the country is run by the PM. He is solely responsible

    the buck stops with him. so if anyone has to resign… it’s him not the party head.

    the tradition in ‘parliamentary democracies’ is for the party head of the majority party to head the govt. the same would apply to the majority party within a coalition, unless the PM was chosen from a smaller party (which would pose the same issues of accountability… to parliament).

    In 60 years you may understand the feeling of having a non-corrupt PM. Just maybe

    indeed. reading about it must be sheer ignorance compared with living it. except… i’ve little intention of living that long, regardless. but thanks.

    I’ve hoped this answers one of your questions

    it answers all of them. all the best.

  59. Gorki


    I am busy today and can not write a long note.
    Just want to write a quick warning.
    Like you I am an Indian and proud of our democracy and the current leadership.
    I still worry a lot about India.

    Take it from me, it is still not a time to gloat; and will not be for a very long time.
    Many things are still wrong there and many more can still go wrong. The BRIC predictions notwithstanding; right now, nothing can be taken for granted and only time will tell.
    Of course if a million things go right in the next 60 years, then perhaps our grand children may just be able to do that (gloat.)

    In the meantime the least we can do is to respect the courage with which the decent and well meaning folks across the border are trying to build a civil society in the face of immense odds.
    To indulge in this childish comparision is cheap and and certainly does not make us look good.
    Have some class; be a good guest at the PTH.
    If you have a nice thing to say, share it with all if not, then listen carefully, you may be surprised how much you will learn. 😉


  60. Mustafa Shaban

    I just want to say that what is happening in the US is itself against US law and against the constitution. In the name of security people are giving up thier rights given to them by the constitution. This is important to note.

  61. Luqmaan

    >I am happy for the fact that she has given the job
    > to the most qualified economist in India.

    If she wouldn’t have done that, she would have handed the BJP a big stick to beat the hell out of the congress.

    >I think she thought Dr.Manmohan Singh
    >deserved the job more than her.
    >Or that she was not qualified to be PM.

    On the other hand at his age, he will be in retirement if its a govt job.

    I don’t agree with you there. There should be an age limit for politicians.

    >She is the political head and PM takes
    >care of the country.

    There are some who feel he is the rubber stamp and the real PM is Sonia Gandhi, operating MMS with a remote control. Not far from the truth, I’d say.

    >He has done a fabulous job.
    >US nuke deal, RTI act,pushing the

    Could this have happened without the system being there? IMHO putting in place the system is more important than anything else.

    >reservation of women in parliament,
    >reserving 50% seats in panchayats
    >for women, electing

    Why do these women need these reservations?
    Food for thought. Eagerly waiting for your response.

    Please post after re-editing your replies. Or we tend to think, you are still wet behind the ears.
    (no offense meant)


  62. karun


    you didn’t say what is the most that would justify causing the US to ‘fear’ it.


    well are you so naive?

    Lets take a parallel: what motivated the 10 young men from pakistan on going about a massacre in Mumbai????

    Should the U.S wait for that?

    if you can sympathize with the regime in saudi arabia who do not respect human rights and are barbaric, only in the name of muslim brotherhood,
    then your ‘yearning’ is misplaced and U.S concerns about ‘Islamic terrorism’ is justified.

  63. karun

    what is so wrong with the particular ‘yearning’, to use your word?


    bcos in many cases the ‘yearning’ metamorphosises into ‘terrorism’

  64. Luqmaan

    >Lets take a parallel:
    >what motivated the 10 young men from
    >pakistan on going about a massacre in Mumbai????



  65. karun



    Islam in danger, dar ul islam, universal brotherhood

  66. Luqmaan

    karun as in karunanidhi? or……


  67. karun


    well on this forum many call me the twin of varun(guess which one)

    i am also a brother to Kabir (some ppl hold all the K-dudes insane here)

    and yes one distinguished gentlemen known for his oratorial and linguistic prowess has bestowed a very beautiful epithet:
    Thersites, from Timon of Athens

    take your pick, or better add a new one 😛

  68. Bloody Civilian


    since when did the saudi regime or any sympathies for it come in to it?? how is that a part of whatever expectation of some kind of inter-muslim affinity or disappointment at the lack of it was expressed?

    what was expressed… how is it different from a jewish american/european/indian/etc spending time in, say, an israeli kibbutz? or the jewish quarter in cordoba? or is a card-carrying member of an int’l jewish organisation? or expressing disappointment at less than reasonable treatment at ben gurion int’l airport…. unless she insists on non-jews being treated unreasonably at an israeli airport? or an indian hindu visiting bali… or feeling an affinity to the temples there? or hindu californians objecting to the depiction of hinduism and indian history in the state school curriculum? or making donations for the proposed hindu holocaust museum in poona? or, say, a british catholic visiting bethlehem? or visiting a convent in rwanda? or donating to christian children in pakistan?

    how does that metamorphise in to terrorism? if it did, wouldn’t we have hundreds of millions of them?

    in your response, i see nothing more than a self-certification…. which has long been redundant, as you yourself have proudly pointed out.

  69. Luqmaan


    send test e-mail to


  70. Luqmaan

    send test e-mail to

  71. karun


    😛 no access to gmail at office. will mail you from home.

  72. karun

    i mean personal mail

  73. karun


    I am still stuck in the labrynth ofyour words, but erudition aside:

    your position is an idealistic one (like a terrorist is a terrorist, not islamic/hindu/jew etc.)

    Ultimately one has to take responsibilty for the greater identity that one takes on,even if you may not agree with it. I may not agree with the Gujrat Violence in India but at the same time i have to bear certain responsibilty(shame) for it however far-fetched.

    Similarly the idea of muslim brotherhood is not a bad concept on its own but then it (and all its adherents)have to take responsibilty for all that happens in the name of Islam whether destructive or noble.

    You cannot say i choose a certain identity yet i am aloof of its responsibilty.

    Perhaps in an ideal theoretical condition its true but not practically.

    Hence every muslim pays the price(or to put it better: bears the responsibilty) of his identity(which is so dear to him) by enduring some ordeal at U.S airports.

    Nothing wrong in that!

  74. luqmaan

    @ karun gandhi
    Ok, and am off on a vacation. Luq

  75. karun

    have a gr8 time! tata!

  76. bonobashi


    Oratorial? What’s that? Did you mean oratorical? And when did people start speaking on this forum? In English, or Hinglish or whatever?

  77. karun


    well i closed my minds eyes and saw ‘demosthenes’, radiant, glorious ,wielding the sword of his tongue on lesser human beings.

  78. bonobashi

    One of those, was he?

  79. Bloody Civilian


    perhaps this would be a more productive use of our time if you didn’t keep bringing in new things where did i say muslim/hindu/christian/jewish/etc brotherhood was a good or a bad thing or idea?

    terrorism is the problem. it needs a solution. everybody needs to work towards it. your entirely subjective reduction of the muslim identity and all that it goes with it (history, sociology, politics etc) is little more useful than the reduction practiced by religous extremists and dogmatists. not differentiating amongst a billion people is as bad if not worse than the billion people not taking some responsibility, by association, of a few amongst them.

    how that responsibility is taken, and what are the different ideas for solutions is another matter. for some it means rejecting and ejecting the few…. yet some do it as a result of being in ‘denial’. there are all kinds of struggle within the billion people, and have been on for a milenium or more (when they were not a billion of them… of course). but mainly they’ve been living human lives as part of human history and that part of history is islam. so shall we now define islam? which part?

    how does ‘taking responsibility’ include giving up rights?? taking responsibility to solve a problem that you consider to be most important to you, how does that include pleading guilty to what you are not, what is not you, and, more importantly what you have not done, and be denied your rights? equally importantly, how does that justify the behaviour of those who are denying you rights? whether you’re muslim, gujrati or german…. and please remember rule no.3 of the 4 rules of orderly debate: treat examples as examples.. only one or a limited number of characteristics may be shared.. hence the example… and keep in mind both differences in context and scale. you being as tall as a tree does not mean that you are covered in leaves.

    the above is separate from a debate about whether there is room for irrational spirituality in this rational world of ours. or is ours an entirely rational species? or religion v spirituality. or even religion v religion. you’re claiming the latter… and that is a futile debate at best. an endless one in case of religions that have had millions upon millionsof followers over centuries and millenia. you’re claiming, ahistorically, topical events and symptoms, lets ignore statistics, as some kind of evidence. you are free to carry on doing that… but why not start making connections as part of your argument… between the ‘symptoms’ and what you claim are the ‘disease’ behind it. and how you think the link is strong and direct enough and the ‘disease’ vicious and evil enough (amounting to “vicious racism” to use your words… and “metamorphosising in to terrorism”) to justify a giving up of rights.

    rationality itself is amoral. and not everybody claiming to be rational is necessarily so. but all vested interest is rational at some level. not all dogma used to keep rationality and free will hostage is of a religious nature. it has largely been in the last 10k years, but there are and have been very significant exceptions, especially in recent times. what will things be like in the next 10k years?

    so what is it that you trying to say: religion is bad? dogma is bad? islam is bad? guilt by association extends to sharing religious identity? such guilt by association justifies a loss of rights? you’ve failed to even identify what it is that you’re claiming, let alone argue it.

  80. Anoop

    you said,”If she wouldn’t have done that, she would have handed the BJP a big stick to beat the hell out of the congress.”
    —-That might have been true if it was 2004 election. Not so in the previous election. People voted for the combo of Sonia and Manmohan.

    You said,”There are some who feel he is the rubber stamp and the real PM is Sonia Gandhi, operating MMS with a remote control. Not far from the truth, I’d say.”
    —- That was precisely what I thought in 2004. But, after seeing our PM handling the US nuke deal issue I was convinced that Sonia has given a free hand. And, PM will decide on all the things important to the nation. Its actually a very good combination. Especially on the economic front we have a good team of specialists in Dr.Manmohan Singh,Chidambaram and Montek Singh Ahuliwalia. Economy according to me is the most important issue. If that is in shape everything else will fall into place.

    You said,”Could this have happened without the system being there? IMHO putting in place the system is more important than anything else. ”
    — I agree.

    You said,”Why do these women need these reservations?
    Food for thought. Eagerly waiting for your response.”
    —- I generally dont agree with the concept of reservation but we desperately need the point of view of women in our democratic process. A democracy where women are under represented is an inefficient one. Urban women are generally very empowered in India but rural ones are not. Especially in non-southern states of India.

    You said,”Or we tend to think, you are still wet behind the ears.”
    —I change my opinions based on sound arguments, Luqmaan.

  81. karun


    yaar ek to tumhe ‘demosthenes’ bola, phir bhi bacche ki jaan loge kya?

  82. Luqmaan

    >after seeing our PM handling the US
    >nuke deal issue I was convinced that Sonia has given

    What was so good in the deal or in the way it was handled that conclusively proves that MMS was acting all on his own ?

    >need the point of view of women in our
    >democratic process

    What women need is education and some personality development.

    This obsession with reservations which is a short-cut method has gone too far.


  83. bonobashi


    Keep finding myself typing your name the old way – drat!
    About reservations, I vehemently disagree, not on ideological grounds, no, not that, but on empirical grounds – the damn’ thing works!

    Of the Big Four at the time of South Asian dominion status, Ambedkar had the weakest hand, the least power. He stooped to conquer, and in the process of settling his own people, from my point of view a laudable objective, he didn’t hesitate to switch horses; he compromised with the INC even though MAJ had promised him support, and had, in solidarity, stayed away from the INC. In doing all this, it was the subtle weapon of quotas that Ambedkar used, not just in his lifetime, but as a spirit brooding over the political battlefield, winning numberless posthumous battles. Without his farsighted engineering of it, the Dalit situation would have approached nowhere the present possibility, visible to all, of a freely-elected Dalit Prime Minister of India, within our lives.

    And it was all done with the quota weapon, with his encyclopaedic knowledge of the law and its derivative the Constitution.

    No, I don’t think quotas are a bad idea.

  84. Anoop

    you said,”What was so good in the deal”
    —Luqmaan, Nuke deal is one of a kind and unique. India is a recognized nuclear power now. The nuclear aparthied has effectively ended for India. This is a stepping stone for bigger things to come. NSG has given a waiver which will never be,probably,repeated ever with respect to any other country. Now, India can access world class tech from anywhere and with less cost. Now, the weapons program can go on without worrying about the civilian program. We are saving tons of money which would we have had to pour into the civilian program. In future, we can also master the tech and sell it to other countries for a profit. India is not that blessed with oil and we desperately need this to secure our energy needs.
    But, this is only a start. We can expect bigger things in other fields.

    you said,”the way it was handled that conclusively proves that MMS was acting all on his own ?”
    — Luqmaan, have you forgotten how Dr.MMS risked his govt to get the deal through parliament? Remember the pro-china left parties trying to sabotage the nuke deal? Our PM risked his office and put his neck on the line for this deal. This conclusively proved that he will do anything to ensure that his vision for India will be fulfilled. The whole world supported the nuke deal except Pakisan (obvious why) and China (Dont want to see India challenging its influence).

  85. bonobashi

    Is it just me, or is a discussion of Indo-US relations a weird subject for this blog?

  86. dude40000

    If anyone (Muslims, non-Muslims, American citizens, non-citizens) has problem with interrogation at any US airport they should:

    1) Stop travelling to US if they are non-US citizens. If they can’t stop travelling to US, stop complaining.

    2) Stop travelling out of US if they are US citizens. If they can’t stop travelling outside US, stop complaining.

  87. D_a_n


    it’s just you 😉

  88. Anoop

    No Pakistani topic is alien in Indian blog and vice versa.

  89. bonobashi


    And who told you that? Or are you making it up as you go along?

    Actually I found that exchange pretty boring and irrelevant.

  90. Luqmaan


    Forget it maan, you are beginning to sound like the propaganda spewing type, which i am sure you are not.

    What has your entire explanation got to do with what you are trying to disprove that sonia is the defacto PM (then and now)?

    Lets start an India-centric blog for just that and do it ok?


  91. karun


    how does ‘taking responsibility’ include giving up rights??


    of course this was coming next, logically speaking.

    but pls dont exaggerate.

    which of your fundamental right is violated at the airport?

  92. karun

    not differentiating amongst a billion people is as bad if not worse than the billion people not taking some responsibility, by association, of a few amongst them.

    sorry you got me wrong, i am not generalising a billion plus population but pls let me know how do you get to know those ‘few’ when they stand infront of the customs guy??

    red eyeballs?? or horns on heads???

  93. Anoop

    I not spewing venom or propaganda. I am just happy that we have a good process in place and our current govt is very good. Since, you are an Indian citizen I thought it would be an apt conversation with you.
    You sounded pessimistic about an aspect of India that I consider as sacred. I hate people who are like that try to change their opinion. I cannot force you to change your opinions so was trying to post good arguments.

  94. Archaeo


    You not spewing, you making good good noises like spewing. You taking good process, good government – no, no, mistake making, very good government – sacred aspect, good arguments, apt conversation (you knowing spelling apt, good thing, you not knowing meaning) to good place. This no good place for good guys like youse. Go. Not spewing, **** movings. Homework: learn meaning ‘public nuisance’.

  95. Bumblebee

    I sympathize with the author.It is a bad time for Muslims and Pakistanis.Why did this have to happen in any case?The world could have been fine without security checks and discrimination.Are we wiser today or worse for wear?

  96. lets make this world a better place to live and leave for our children,i feel sad about the pathetic situation prevailing in the whole planet earth today,Usa, india pakistan,iraq,afghanistan,,,,,,,we all need to breathe and exist. please people stop the hate,lets all think like one big family of human beings,. otherwise—–we all know it can all end in a blast, in A split second..

  97. karun

    yes neelum basheer,

    you can do your bit by fighting for moderation and for bringing about urgent reforms in Islam.

    or better fight for education and make religions redundant…

    vasudhaiva Kutumbakam (the world is a family)

  98. bloodycivilian


    which of your fundamental right is violated at the airport?

    where did i take that specific position? which vicious method of deduction did you use for my general position on rights to have been reduced to a position i’ve never stated on a specific case? to debate the particular example would require discussing other and more specific details. it would require, for example, knowledge, amongst much else, of both probability & statistics and the difference between looking for a suspect in relation to a prospective and retrospective crime. on the general point of liberty v security… i have made my thoughts clear on another forum.

    it’s useless to have a debate if all i get is statements, instead of arguments, based on entirely imagined positions that i am assumed to agree with. it’d have been a good idea, in the interest of meanignful debate, to have stopped some posts earlier… but you go ahead and have the last word, if you like. i’ve had mine.

  99. bonobashi happy to celebrate Gandhi Jayanti

    @Bloody Civilian

    He got you to lose your cool. That’s the biggest payoff for these trolls. Did you think they were here for the discussion?

  100. Bloody Civilian

    pls let me know how do you get to know those ‘few’ when they stand infront of the customs guy??

    i see i forgot to answer your question. my apologies. although i’ve very briefly touched upon the general dilemma in the post above, of criminal law v public law, security v liberty… however, the idea was to get to that debate. what ensued was a futile attempt to have any kind of meanigful deabte at all.

    you tried to claim that your assertions were in the ‘sans airport’ context. so i reminded you that this was what this thread was about and that is what we should have been discussing, except, we kept getting derailed by you assuming things that no one had ever claimed. for example, you assuming that those who believe in religous affinity within the muslim brotherhood support the saudi regime; you might assume next that i agree with them (the common identity or the regime in riyadh) somehow; you claimed that this feeling of affinity (somehow) metamorphosises in to terrorism; that giving up rights was part and parcel of taking responsibility (implying that taking responsibility was – somehow – the same as pleading guilty).

    little wonder that the debate had to move towards a discussion of islamophobia then (“what is this discussion about then? the racist who is a wonderful guy ’sans the hate’?”). you never gave any argument, coherent or otherwise, for any of this. the mumbai 10 were supposed to be some kind of example that was supposed to have served as evidence that this subjective feeling of ‘brotherhood’ or ‘common’ (at some level) identity that most of their victims – muslim, hindu, chrisitan, jew, sikh, etc. – shared, “metamorphises” in to terrorism, is “vicious racism”, requires a collective pleading guilty and justifies giving up rights.

    the dilemma (not necessarily a uniform level of inconvenience) faced vis a vis airport security is faced by all users of the airport. it has nothing to do with giving up rights for one particular group due to some assumed feeling of guilt.

    your argument was that this shared identity comes with the price of giving up rights. yet, profiling – even a naive and unwise version of it – includes features and elements that would apply equally to those who do not consciously subscribe to such common or collective identity. except, we never got to that point, given the lack of argument and some absurd idea about what constitutes a debate. if you are stuck in any labyrinth, it is to do more with a lack of logic and moral issues than with “erudition”.

  101. Bloody Civilian


    he did.

    btw, happy gandhi jayanti

  102. Hayyer 48

    How is Gandhi Jayanti celebrated? Spinning thread and observing silence, or failing that, singing his favourite hymns and drinking goat milk?

  103. bonobashi

    @Hayyer 48

    If it’s OK with you, I did the observing silence and drinking goat milk bits, only substituted cow’s milk for goat’s. One has to be adaptable, after all.

  104. karun


    yet, profiling – even a naive and unwise version of it – includes features and elements that would apply equally to those who do not consciously subscribe to such common or collective identity.

    how come? here the common identity is only islam

    how did non islamic (people who do not subscribe to islamic identity) get involved?

    well of-course if you are talking of a guy who has muslim sounding name and say is an atheist, well he should drop his muslim name (because anyway he doesnot subscribe to that identity)

    and if you are a pakistani christian and being a pakistani you get harassed then you are plain unlucky.

    So may be it works in 95% cases. 5% cases will always be statistical error (which is good!!)

  105. Bloody Civilian


    yes. you’re right. you’ve had the last word. thankyou.

  106. Hayyer

    Drinking the milk of cows is unGandhian.

  107. Cosmopak

    This kind of thing also happens not just in the West. On a visit to Turkey two years ago, I was aggressively questioned on the purpose of my trip at the airport. Sometimes, I would notice I am being followed by people. I also would be invited to “tea” by “friendly” turks but who seemed to be extracting all information from me.

  108. bonobashi

    @Bloody Civilian

    Why don’t you get off this argument? You are being needled just so’s somebody gets a perverted kick out of watching you react

    Either that or demolish him – or get someone to demolish him – once and for all.

  109. Luqmaan


    We celebrate gandhi jayanthi by promising to bury his priciples/policies every day of the next year but garland his photograph all the time.

    Just like MAJ


  110. Hayyer

    His principles, in my opinion are best left buried. Garlanding portraits of dead people is an inoffensive habit.

  111. Bloody Civilian


    That is exactly what my last post declared. There can be no argument with such hatemongers. He does not know the difference between Jews, Jewish-ness, Judaism and Semitism. Between Judaism and Judaism. I doubt he realises that islamophobia is anti-Semitism as far as Semitic muslims are concerned. He does not care, in any case.

    The pustule is only interested in broadcasting his vile prejudice. He hates muslims, and esp Pakistani muslims, and believes they deserve to be “harassed” (“if you are a pakistani christian and being a pakistani you get harassed then you are plain unlucky”). He tries to keep his language below the threshold where he would get banned (even taking the most liberal and generous view of the right to freedom of expression). Yet, every now and then, he has not been able to restrain his hate and has been rightly censored as a result. And then, his only regret has been to lose the opportunity to be a troll – the only thing that gives his petty little life any purpose, no matter how worthless.

    I took a leaf out of gorki’s book and tried to give the benefit of the doubt. Only to find out that I lack gorki’s nearly endless patience. This creature is only interested in spraying his faeces around. He doesn’t care if it ends up smearing his own face. Sadly, every country and city has a few of these embarrassing aberrations. There is no point lancing this boil. His pathetic little being is a bottomless pit filled with nothing but pus.

  112. Gorki

    BC: You are wrong; I don’t have as much patience as you think I have; I just go on and on when I know I am right ;-).

    Karun: You too are sadly very wrong.
    You wrote:

    “So may be it works in 95% cases. 5% cases will always be statistical error (which is good!!)”

    It is not good and it is not just a statistical error for three big reasons; moral, constitutional and practical against this line of reasoning.
    Since you have sadly already discounted the moral one, I will discuss only the practical (and maybe the constitutional later on).

    Yesterday I had the honor of attending a black tie dinner and a lecture by a key figure of a think tank to the president of the United States. It was not a political event and the attendance was by invitation only. The lecture was preceded by a short speech by another, a currently serving USAF general; an impressive blond giant of a man; who could have walked right out of Nazi propaganda posters. Yet more than his appearance it was what he said that was impressive.

    He told us how proud he was the serve the ‘best air force’ in the world, which he said was neither democrat nor republican but only existed to serve the Constitution of the United States. He further said that while it was the job of men like him to carry out the orders of the president; the military was but one tool available to his commander in Chief (the others being soft power: namely goodwill, diplomacy etc.) He further went on to state that today’s military was aware of the fact that while it had to fight wars, it had to be done in such a way so as not to ‘degrade’ other such tools (soft power).

    I will not bore you with the rest but the point these otherwise pragmatic men, made was this; in today’s battles, it is not the bombs and the fancy gadgetry alone that is vital but the capacity to separate the terrorists from their potential recruitment base; the one billion you talk about.

    Thus the battle for the hearts and minds is not just a fancy word some bleeding heart liberals thought up after smoking pot; it is a real issue to battle hardened commanders.

    This is a not a clash of civilizations but it is still a global war we are engaged in. In the today’s world with lightening fast communications, anything (good or bad) that happens to only a handful of people is felt instantly by many. An airline may ask one passenger to deplane due to ‘security concerns’ yet is affects many more who listen to is on the evening news. The US political and military leaders realizes that every alienated human being on this planet is a potential warrior for our opponents; conversely every satisfied person; citizen or otherwise, is an ally.

    Thus security is important but security cannot be solely based on surveillance alone but also manpower denial to the enemy.
    The airport authorities may keep the country safe in the short run by humiliating searches in the short run but is a dissatisfied Bilal Qureshi goes home and starts a recruitment drive tomorrow for a global jihad then no amount of searches are going to help in the long run. You can do the math; five percent of a billion is still 50 million people.
    Fifty million people cannot be dismissed as a statistical error.

    There are enough instances from history to believe that people when confronted with issues of multiple competing identities and group loyalties, remain loyal towards the one that they believe is more inclusive and open.
    For example, in the WWII the US government was very apprehensive about the commitment of the Japanese American community to the US. Yet the shameful Japanese concentration camp internments not withstanding; the most highly decorated unit ever, of the US Army was the 442 infantry regiment; made up exclusively of; (you guessed it, the Japanese Americans.)
    Fifteen hundred years before that, ancient Rome was once under relentless attack by the seemingly unstoppable barbarians under Attila the Hun till they were crushed at Chalons by a Roman general named Atieus (Bonobashi may correct my spelling) commanding an army made up mostly of other barbarians who had been treated well and Romanized by the empire!

    If you can see no other reason (and there are plenty more important ones than these) then at least for this alone remember that it is important that the supposed defenders of the United States do not aid the enemy by hateful arguments you have been providing. I have to run now but once you respond to this; I will continue if you wish!


  113. bonobashi

    I’m sick of discussing one dysfunctional personality. Rather discuss them in the aggregate.

  114. Azad

    My wife who is a Britsh Citizen suffered at Dallas Airport the same way as Bilal did.

    She was interogated, humiliated & then detained for a day and then sent back to the UK.

    Her fault was that when asked she got the address of the Hotel where she was staying slightly wrong.

    She won’t be going back

  115. universe,having one upward,one downward.thats are both not change.become as it always.


  117. karun1


    have not been visiting the blog regularly of late…

    are you really capable of the hatred you wrote??i perhaps rated you next to Gorki in gentle manliness…please preserve it…and dont descend to such perverse standards.

    Please do not assume i hate/love whom or what based on your prejudices or sterotypes. Its very short sighted

    Bonobashi if you have some problem with me address directly henceforth….please grow up and stop making personal attacks. I have not attacked you, not even a single time personally. its not my fault that TM goes on to say what he does. yes may be i had a laugh at your expense bcos it was very funny. I am not your enemy. Stop being abusive.

    pothi padh padh jag muan bhaya na pandit koi
    dhai aakhar prem ka jo padhe so pandit hoi

  118. Bloody Civilian


    your own words are there in quotes for all to see. one more time, you said “if you are a pakistani christian and being a pakistani you get harassed then you are plain unlucky.” you made sure you didn’t leave any room for “prejudices or sterotypes” or ‘short-sightedness’.

    as for ‘not getting personal with bonobashi’… see below for just one example:

    October 13, 2009 at 11:03 pm


    two wrongs dont make a right…..[EDITED]

    October 13, 2009 at 11:06 pm


    Please mind your language. Any moderator signed in right now please edit out the use of bad language in Karun’s post

  119. karun1

    heck, that was like….dont bug me! get lost!!

    but what you wrote is a thought out and ruminated vituperative. sentences after sentences……

    even admitting that i said that, if bonobashi could have retorted it was sensible,from you it was like a bolt from the blue..

    anyway…i am not here to justify what you said or i said. but pls be civil to me in this forum..i have never meant you any harm.
    if you are a pakistani christian and being a pakistani you get harassed then you are plain unlucky

    this was just an example to your own point:
    yet, profiling – even a naive and unwise version of it – includes features and elements that would apply equally to those who do not consciously subscribe to such common or collective identity.

    what was so appaling about it. why are u getting touchy about it?

    Did i say anywhere that pakistani muslims should be profiled? how do you read these in my statements.

    please try to understand we differ on the philosophical underpinnings here:

    i have made my case amply clear that any society/nation would have to take a collective responsibilty for the ills that its constituents carry out

    and let me be clear: the responsibilty here is only limited to slight discomfort at airport, i am strongly against any human rites abuse based on profiling.

  120. Bloody Civilian

    your ‘explanation’ of what you said is a mere repetition. once again, i’ve based my censure of what you said and what that said about you entirely on your own words.

    be that as it may, at a definite point, albeit late in the day, in your cheer-leading for TM it seemed you didn’t like all of what you were associating yourself with and decided to put some distance, no matter how small, between you and those aspects of him.

    i’ve no problem in moving ahead, ignoring all your past posts, from that point onwards.

  121. bonobashi


    If you take the trouble of looking through responses to your comments, you may find that there has been universal, unanimous disapproval of whatever you have had to say. On PTH, my observation as a mere, humble participant in their commentaries is that normally nothing is censured, there is a philosophy of free speech which covers very broad limits. The administrators have an elastic and flexible attitude to visitors. It was strained and finally snapped in your case.

    It is not clear why you descend on a Pakistani blog to make trouble; contrary to another ridiculous person’s bizarre thinking, there is no mutual principle of freedom to opine on each other’s countries in any location whatsoever. That is, there is not much point in commenting on Indian matters here. There is also not much in commenting unless you have at least a rudimentary idea of what is being discussed, and, more important, what has been discussed, sometimes, often, in fact, discussed threadbare earlier.


    1. Your comments were incendiary in the extreme; it is not mandatory that such bigoted and selectively twisted views should be given the freedom that is normally extended.
    2. Your knowledge of topics under discussion was rudimentary and made no sense. In other cases, you were raising issues that had been covered in extensive detail elsewhere, without yourself taking the trouble to find out what had been said.
    3. You have shown your inner inclinations, even those not articulated or displayed by you directly, by your support of an even worse troll, over some days past. This makes it clear where your inclinations lie, where they take you.

    I have increasingly opposed your participation for these reasons. It has never been hidden from you, nor was there any concealment of the reasons for the opposition. Too many Indians come here to jeer or to insult and then vanish, leaving a residual legacy of bitterness for us to cope with. If you wish to be a contributor of substance, please take some small trouble, and find out what makes for a reasonable and well-regarded contribution.

    And refrain, in future, from giving me personal advice on how to comport myself. As the Greeks put it sapiently many thousand years ago, ‘Physician, heal thyself.’

    Please do not address me in future, directly or indirectly, without substantial reason. If you do, the consequences are entirely to your account.

  122. bonobashi


    Just to remind you of how deeply you annoyed one contributor, not too long back:

    where did i take that specific position? which vicious method of deduction did you use for my general position on rights to have been reduced to a position i’ve never stated on a specific case? to debate the particular example would require discussing other and more specific details. it would require, for example, knowledge, amongst much else, of both probability & statistics and the difference between looking for a suspect in relation to a prospective and retrospective crime. on the general point of liberty v security… i have made my thoughts clear on another forum.

    it’s useless to have a debate if all i get is statements, instead of arguments, based on entirely imagined positions that i am assumed to agree with. it’d have been a good idea, in the interest of meanignful debate, to have stopped some posts earlier… but you go ahead and have the last word, if you like. i’ve had mine.

  123. imran kadha

    Dont forget how Daniel Pearl was treated in Pakistan. Have you ever heard of a Pakistani journalist beheaded in USA. I have not had a problem entering the states, one time i screamed at the immigration officer, and scared him, he told me welcome home. Another time, i looked straight at a white bitchy Customs Officer and gave her a demeaning, flirtatious look, answered 3 questions and she threw back the passport at me. Never, has my bag been opened. I weight train, i look impressive, and clean cut. Most Pakistanis look like crap, most men my age are fat, ugly and wrinkled with poor physiques. This is not to say that in the future, i wont be a victim to racial profiling. However, so far i have fought back. Pakistan is a wretch of a nation. We are too over populated, polluted, and the way we practice Islam, is too rigid. Did Americans ask you to have so many children per family? Why are you not content with just one child? Please teach your daughters about abortion and tell them not to have children. WE HAVE NO RESPECT IN THIS WORLD.

  124. Anoop

    “Dont forget how Daniel Pearl was treated in Pakistan.”
    Good counter argument. How many Muslims have been beheaded in the US???

  125. hillary cliton is brave laddy.

  126. Mustafa Shaban

    @ Anoop and Imran Kadha: Well no muslims have been beheaded, but thier rights have been violated time and time again. Also the US has killed a million muslims in Iraq based on a pack of lies and also supports Israel which kills muslims, it backs extremist terrorists islamists to kill muslims so that it can get justification for its imperialistic activites, same goes for Europe and Israel as well. It also kills muslims in Afghanistan, it has blown up hundreds of people in Pakistan with drone attacks. This is what these ”civilised democracies” do arounf the world. Also Pakistan is not a wretched nation, and also Pakistani men are not neccessarily ugly and fat, this is steroetyping and racism. Infact many of them are presentable and very good looking. Also Pakistanis are very talented, oone of the most talented people in the world. They broke many records, go to to find out the numeorus wolrd records they have broken. We have the highest average and highest scores in IGCSE scores. We have muhc much more. So I think you get your view from US media and movies which is totally biased. We do have many problems but we hve the chance to turn the tables and rise up. We do not need anybody telling us how to live or how many children we have that is our problem and not thiers.

    @Waheed: Hilary and Bill Clinton are one of the most curropt politicians in US history. They have had numeorus proven financial scandals and murder cases linked to them.

  127. Mustafa Shaban

    The foriegners killed in Pakistan were becuase of extremist groups not supported by the goverment and neither by the people. Also for every foriegner killed on muslim soil, tens or hundreds of thousands have been killed by the west in return. So there is grave injustice being done on thier part.

  128. Anoop

    Why are you concerned who kills Muslims and who doesnt,man?? What,Pakistan has taken the sole,noble responsibility of protecting the Muslims all over the world??? If so then why did YOUR army went on a rampage in East Pakistan,now Bangladesh??? Weren’t they Muslims too?? Why did you kill Muslims if you sooooo concerned about them? This seems to me just opportunism to hate the US,which has given Paksitan more than,I believe,70% of aid during its entire existence..You should be on your hands and knees thanking them..

    Only if you had used the word Paksitanis instead of Muslims in your argument would have carried more weight.. This just shows how shallow you are..

    “This is what these ”civilised democracies” do arounf the world.”
    Which according to you is a Perfect country with perfect system? Believe it or not US is one of the best countries in the world because it will go to any length to take care of its citizens.. Your country can stop drone attacks if it wants to.. You guys can detect a Hi-Tech 4th Generation,supersonic Sukhoi-30 MKI but cannot detect a slow moving,unmanned drone? Face it man.. Your country is complicit in the drone attacks.. You have the blood of your own country men on your hands.. Lets say your country’s defences cannot detect them to shoot it down with a surface-to-air missiles then your govt can atleast protest and say,”we wont let the NATO supplies move thru our territory unless you stop drone attacks”,right?? Is it doing that? That would mean your govt is hand in gloves with NATO on drones..

    “also Pakistani men are not neccessarily ugly and fat, this is steroetyping and racism. Infact many of them are presentable and very good looking. Also Pakistanis are very talented, oone of the most talented people in the world.”

    Good for you.. I guess you are one of those Good-looking-presentable-very talented and not to forget, smart people in Pakistan.. Good for Paksitan,dude.. 🙂

  129. Mustafa Shaban

    Pakistan does not need the aid, we need good rulers who will expoliot our natural resources and people for the benefit of the people then we will be able to solve all our problems and be very wealthy and powerful. Aid made us subservient to the US and they have done a lot of damage to Pakistan. One article also proved that while they gave us aid, the value of support and money that Pakistan gave the US till now is muhc greater. Also other articles and scientific research and studies prove that Pakistan is one of the world ‘s richest in terms of natural solution, the problem being they havent exploited those resources at all and have sold them to foriegn MNC’s and due to curroption they cud not tap into these resources.

    The US does not take care of its citizens:

    1. It flouridates thier water
    2. Makes military use depleted uranium in thier weapons which harms the men and women in the army.
    3. It indoctrinates its own population with trash media
    4. It favors corporations, banker and otehrs interests over its citizens which is fascism.
    5. It allows unlike Europe genetically modified food in the food supply which is extremely dangerous for human beings.
    6. What you see on TV is not real. Go to the poor areas of US and you will find mass poverty and homelessness in the richest country in the world.
    7. they have a terrible health care system and even though they pay the highest money on health care it still cant compare to European or Canadian Healthcare.
    8. They conduct chemical tests o thier own population. Research MK ULTRA, Chem trails etc.

    Much much more all of which cannot be covered in a single post.

    The Pakistani government does not represent the interests of the people unfortunately and that needs to change.

    Lastly I was only trying to correct a stupid stereotype. There is good and bad in all people, races, and religion. It was pretty stupid to attach tht kind of comment to Pakistanis.

    Also you still fail to prove my point on the west killing more muslims than muslims killing westerners. Also I do not know exactly what took place in East Pakistan, but I know that the army mite have made mistakes and that they do not intend to kill people just for the heck of it but because there was a need to counter indian influence in East Pakistan at the time. Also muslims killing muslims isnt the topic , what we were disucssing is the ratio of muslims killed by the west : westerners killed by so called ”Islamic” militias.

    Ofcourse those who killed innocent people on muslim lands do not represent the muslim people and infact go against islam, also those who kill muslims do not represent the western public who are very nice people.

  130. Anoop

    Mustafa Shaban,
    The point you make saying that Pakistan should not be dependent on Aid is true and advisable. But, there is something called Economics,man.. Without Economics of a country being healthy you cannot achieve anything what you said above.. You have NO idea how dependent Paksitan is on Aid.. You have your army to blame for this as it was in power for most of Paksitan’s life and it didn’t do a thing to improve its condition.. Like it or not Civilian might is way better than Military one for any country..

    “Also I do not know exactly what took place in East Pakistan, but I know that the army mite have made mistakes and that they do not intend to kill people just for the heck of it but because there was a need to counter indian influence in East Pakistan at the time.”
    I am not surprised that you dont know what happened in East Pakistan. I’ll provide you a link of Hamoodar Rehman Commision report. This report was ordered by the paksitani govt,mind you, and it was kept secret from the Pakistani people.. but, like all good things it spread and was leaked..

    Check it out to know YOUR country’s history from the mouth of a Paksitani who was ordered to tell the truth.. Hope you have a nice journey..

    “Also muslims killing muslims isnt the topic , what we were disucssing is the ratio of muslims killed by the west : westerners killed by so called ”Islamic” militias.”
    I donno what the figures are because nobody has done any worthwhile research on this. But, I do know that the West didnt give a hoot about Muslims before 9/11.. Then, why was it attacked? Anyway, dont carry the huge burden of speaking and acting behalf of Muslims all over the world.. Just think and care about your country- Pakistan and all will be well.. Your “ummah” didnt give a dime when compared to the US $,inspite of being filthy rich with Oil money.. Only “western” countries like USA, EU and Japan came to your rescue in your time of need.. Extremism and fanatism is your enemy, not the democratic West..

  131. Mustafa Shaban

    @ Anoop:

    1. I know we are too much dependant on Aid. But we can become independant of aid if we work on ourselves. If you smoke or do anything addictive it is difficult to get off the habit but you can do it. For Pakistan it is not so hard to get off aid and become independant. IT is only due to curropt elites that we are taking aid. Also, you can take aid from time to time, but that should not be the only thing to do. You should develop yourself and get some level of independance. Many countries have done that before. Pakistan has good people, firends and opportunities to do this. You dont have to depend on anything and history preoves this.

    2. I will read the report sometime later. I am curious to see different viewponts on what took place in East Pakistan.

    3. Thing is that Saudi Arabia did help us a bit. At the same time US and the wstern world including IMF and World Bank gives money to third world countries but not to help them but to put them in debt and impose thier version of economics on them which has devastated third world economies. Read John Perkins Confessions of an Economic Hitman to find out how. Infact the third world is trillions f dollars in ”debt” to the westen world due to compund interest. And now you can see in third world countries the implications of neoliberal economics and mass privitisation. Things have gotten worse instead of better.

    4. I am not saying that democracy is our enemy. Imperialism and extremism and fanaticism is our enemy. Extremist ISlamic fundamentalist and Western Imperialist are both our enemies. Notice how they support each other. Remove one and you wont have the other e.g remove bin laden and you wont have or remove bush and you dont have bin laden. Not literally but you know what I mean. Each justifies its existence with the prescence of the other. Bob Avakian who is the leader of the US Commmunist Party highlights this very well so do other scholars like Raymond Lotta and Sunsara Taylor.

    5.Many people have done worthwhile research on this and s available on the net and elsewhere. Also the west has always observed and acted on the world. This attention towards muslims has increased a lot in the media but has always been like this in policy circles. The west has always been observing its interests everywhere. It dusnt make sense to say that they dunt give a hoot about muslims before 9/11. Also nobody knows who attacked the WTC towers, if you look on the FBI site OBL is convicted of different things except 9/11 and people asked why and they siad becuase they didnt have enough evidence.

  132. Anoop

    @Mustafa Shaban,

    You were making couple of sane sounding points and you ruined it by suggesting somebody else attacked the world trade center. America is just not a kind of country which will attack itself and kill thousands to attack a ‘Muslim’ country.. Why would it want to attack Afghanistan,considered to be graveyard for empires?? Iraq i agree it was for the oil but not Afghanistan. It doesnt have any worthwhile natural resource to get attacked..

    Regarding your 1st point,I agree with most of it.

    “Thing is that Saudi Arabia did help us a bit.”

    True. It did help but not the kind of help it had the potential of extending.. Isn’t it considered a country to look up to in Pakistan??? I think you should prioritize your loyalties based on ground realities.. Saudi Arabia can fund the Madrassas that spread its kind of Rigid Islam(Wahhabism i think it is) but not the govt of the Muslim country. Very bad.

    “The west has always been observing its interests everywhere.”

    I think this is a key point. It will do whatever is in its interest.. It doesn’t view countries based on Religion,man. I know the Muslims world thinks of the west as Christian world but,believe me, the west doesnt think of Majority Muslim areas as the Muslim world.. If it did they would not have Saudi Arabia as an ally..
    As some great person had said,” there are no permanent Friends or Enemies but only Permanent interests”.. Just think with your brain,not your heart..

  133. Mustafa Shaban

    @Anoop: I agree with everything you have said including what you said about Saudi Arabia and how the west views us. What I disagree with is that America does not conduct false flag attacks for its own interests and that Afghanistan is not rich in natural resources and is not beneficial ot take over..

    1. Look at the many documentaries and literature showing that the offcial 9/11 story dus not make any scientific sense and violates the basic laws of science. I will give you links on that latr. Also there are many instances whree America has conducted false flag attacks for its own interests. Such as Gulf of Tonkin, Spanish American war etc. There is massive literature on the net about that just google false flag attacks o google and on google video and you will know what I mean. If you want I will provide links for that as well.

    2. Also Afhganistan is very wealthy in natural resources, it has huge reserves but thats not the only thing, it is in a perfect postion geostrategically, bordering China Iran and Pakistan. Also Afhganistan is the gatteway to many competing pipelines, some proposed by China and Russia and others by US. And also there are many other reasons why the US wants to be there. I will provide more links on this f you want as well, there is tons of evidence out there. There is abook The Grand Chessboard by Zbginew Brezenski who is Obama;s main advisor and also a big name in the last 4 decades in policy making. Go to to find out more. If you do some research you will find a lot of stuff that proves my point. Afghanistan is a very important country, just because it isnt developed dusnt men that its not important or strategic.

  134. Anoop

    @Mustafa Shaban,

    may be I am close minded or something but I just cant believe US would attack itself. Would Pakistan or any other country in the ‘Muslim’ world attack itself???
    What if somebody comes and says all the terrorist attacks in Paksitan are the handy work of ISI and army to get military and civilian aid??? They will give the excuse that ISI gave patronage in the past to many of these terror organisations to achieve strategic objectives in Afghanistan and India.. They will ask how can the monster turn on its creator without his blessings!

    US,like it or not, is a place where democracy and secularism flourishes.. Its a land of dreams-many people in both India and Pakistan would die to go and end up in that country.. US is just not the kind of country which would attack itself. If it were a dictatorship or a communist country,ya, you can say there is a possibility of US attacking itself.. But, the country is considered to be the oldest democracy in the world. US is ruled by people’s consensus not on the whim of some blood-thirsty,power hungry and selfish dictator..

    I am also not suggesting US is the bestest country in the whole world.. But,its system is damn near perfect.. If 300 million people in the US go into recession,the whole world follows.. Thats the kind of size and impact the US has on the world..

    There are plenty of problems in South Asia but the starting point in solving those problems is recognizing the fact that it exists and act on it.. The 1st step in progress,according to me, is democracy and a stable govt. I dont trust anybody but the people themselves to rule them.. Pakistan has to take the 1st step and its 60 yrs late to take this step..

  135. Mustafa Shaban

    @Anoop: i know it sounds really wierd and illogical, you are not close minded, you just dont understand the benefits, I am going to show you some links of evidence:

    Amazing documentary, pure evidence and sceince of a cover up

    another amazing doc

    In this website search for article writen by David Ray Griffin

    There are many other great documentaries and websites exposing US/Israel i involvement in 9/11 this should do for now.

    Also on Global Research, try reading the articles about Afghanistan and you will see why the US wants Afhganistan so badly. Hope you approach my links with open mind. Thanks!!

  136. Mustafa Shaban

    Also the US has goods and bads but its nowhere good as the media shows it and its worse than you think! I will post statistics next time.

  137. Anoop

    @Mustafa Shaban,

    I didnt want you to think that I’ve a romantic concept of the US. US’s society is not ideal but the political system IS.. I am not talking about the values and ideals of the US society. I dont care.. I only look at the political structure which is very good indeed.. I am saying we need to emulate the values and ideals of that political structure not its society..

  138. Mustafa Shaban

    @ Anoop: You are right i understand what you are saying, unfortunately my comment and links are under moderration, after 24 hours or something you will be able to view the links I have posted so that you can see the evidence for yourself. I completely understand where you are coming from. I geus you have to wit until my post gets posted by admin