The Burden Of The Liberal “Extremist”

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

The subject is a little outdated so bear with me. Pakistaniat or All Things Pakistan marked a great revolution in Pakistan’s blogging history. It was a progressive and fresh look for Pakistan when the esteemed academic Dr. Adil Najam started it and alas it seemed like that Pakistanis will getting up and speaking up for Pakistan- more specifically the inclusive, democratic and tolerant Pakistan envisaged by Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah. And what a revolution it brought about – even PakTeaHouse is to some extent influenced by it and the going ons of that website. Indeed much of our readership is common and we often have similar points of view on issues of national importance. It was therefore this that as someone who has passionately written for Pakistaniat website and contributed to discussions there , I was very disappointed to see a plagiarized obituary of Mian Tufail Muhammad, the second amir of an anti-Pakistan subversive and largely secretive group called Jamaat-e-Islami. It was written by some illiterate and uneducated youth, who claims to be a national kalmnist for some third rate Urdu paper in Karachi which doubles as the official Jamaat-e-Islami newsletter.

 Mian Tufail Muhammad was – as is the case with Jamaat-e-Islami in general- actively working to curtail religious freedom in Pakistan and closely associated with General Zia who was by far the worst military adventurer to come to power in Pakistan. So much for Jamaat-e-Islami’s self righteous claims about democracy and constitution recently. In the obituary the author, who tops the list when it comes to lying in print, shamelessly claims that Tufail sided with the dictator for “higher goals”. Well so did Chaudhry Shujaat, Chaudhry Pervez Elahi, MQM and everyone else who sided with Musharraf. Doesn’t mean we forgive them for their role does it? And Musharraf certainly was no Zia by any stretch of imagination.

Of course Tufail mian and his organization never believed in electoral politics. The reason why they were ready to accept General Zia’s demolition of Pakistan’s constitution was because in Zia they finally saw the ameer-ul-momineen they were looking for. It was not even political opportunism for even that would have given the Jamaat-e-Islami’s irrational politics respectability, it was apolitical- it was an attempt to impose upon the people a version of Islam that they have rejected repeatedly and have rejected repeatedly. Then of course Zia’s total and complete subservience to the US (including the little known fact that Zia waived an estimated US 1 billion a year to CIA which the US knew it would owe to the Pakistan for facilitation in Afghan War) did not matter to Jamaat-e-Islami and its apologists. Even the Martial Law regime realized that Jamaat-e-Islami’s prospects of gaining mass support in Pakistan was next to impossible and after the disastrous party-less elections of 1985 saw the emergence of a new Pakistan Muslim League under Prime Minister Junejo within the National Assembly. This effectively brought Tufail’s political career to an end.

Jamaat-e-Islami – since its founding- has been a subversive group acting through back-channel and underground means. Other such groups like Khaksars or the Majlis-e-Ahrar died a natural death in Pakistan a long time ago but the Jamaat survived some how or the other.  Unlike Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt ,  it has shown itself incapable of reinventing itself into a democratic body by any stretch of imagination. It’s role against the creation of Pakistan and its opposition to Pakistan Movement is well known. And yet somehow a website like Pakistaniat found it necessary to post the obituary of Mian Tufail who is – without a doubt- the very antithesis of any reasonable definition of Pakistaniat.

So why were the editorial board of Pakistaniat compelled to post the obituary? Apparently the whole thing started when the founding editor of the said website, bowing to public pressure, wrote a moving tribute to the late and great Michael Jackson who died the same day as Mian Tufail Muhammad. This prompted a response from the said author to be abusing the Pakistaniat management for being callous in ignoring the death of a “great man” like Mian Tufail and promoting a “singer” and “dancer” like Michael Jackson. He went on to describe this as intolerance of the “left” (apparently all points of view that are not Jamaat-e-Islami compliant are automatically “left”) It was in this context that Pakistaniat editorial board posted a plagiarized and highly controversial obituary.

 Far too many times, Pakistanis tend to bow down to the pressure of this vocal group of religious extremists. Far too many times, Pakistanis are forced to give space to foaming and rabid commenters who accuse the “left” and “liberal” crowds of being extremist. Even our very own Raza Rumi – who is in my view the most right thinking patriot I know- posted a rather third rate piece by some crank to this effect. All of their claims are nonsensical. Blasphemy laws, anti-ahmadi discrimination, religious extremism, Taliban and the persecution of religious minorities in Pakistan shows a completely different picture. There are no liberal extremists in Pakistan. Forget liberal extremists, Pakistan’s history has been marked by the inaction in face of religious extremists. As early as 1954, Pakistan’s courts handed down a death sentence for Maulana Maududi for his role in inciting sectarian hatred against Ahmadis. And yet Maududi was let go under pressure of his band of religious extremists. Had the state made a horrible example of him then, perhaps we would not be discussing this issue today. When has the state even carried out the most reasonable steps to stop religious extremists in this country? If the state was an honest and impartial arbiter between the “liberals” and the “religious kind”, most of the Mullahs of this country would be in jail under Section 295 and 295 A of the Pakistan Penal Code. But state itself violates these sections of the PPC. So where are the frikkin’ “liberal extremists” that these dishonest crooks keep talking about? There are no liberal extremists in Pakistan. There are only cowardly liberals, liberals in taqqiya, liberals without a backbone.

With this background it is very unfortunate that sites like Pakistaniat have now begun to give space to the same crooks day in and day out in the name of fairness. Fairness is not isolated concept. When well meaning liberal websites like Pakteahouse or Pakistaniat give space to religious extremists and anti-Pakistan elements without seeking quid pro quo, they become tools of the overall unfairness that is rampant both inside and against Pakistan. Don’t complain then when Gojras happen all over Pakistan. You are party to it! Don’t whine when Pakistan gets abused by Paki-bashers all around the world. You are party to it.

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262 responses to “The Burden Of The Liberal “Extremist”

  1. Pingback: Blogging – Posts about Blogging as of August 9, 2009 | MelaniedeJonge.com

  2. Pingback: The Burden Of The Liberal “Extremist” | Michael Jackson Died | RIP MJ 1958-2009

  3. Anwar

    Well said. But you also outlined the reasons why ATP succumbed to the “pressure.” I personally do not care much about Moududi et. al. but to bring about change without polarizing the readership it was an OK move on part of ATP.
    I think a large number of educated people know that JI was involved in war crimes in Bangladesh and other anti-state acts (Operation Wheel Jams etc.) and that it is basically a well organized anarchist party.
    Being in PK, perhaps you can help me with some statistics such as the number of copies (of books) printed by JI press for each edition…

  4. stumblingmystic

    “So where are the frikkin’ “liberal extremists” that these dishonest crooks keep talking about? There are no liberal extremists in Pakistan. There are only cowardly liberals, liberals in taqqiya, liberals without a backbone.”

    Hahahaha. Nicely put!

  5. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    It was the most outrageous article which tried to turn an Islamofascist into a hero. A friend told me that the author was in fact Yasser Latif Hamdani writing under a psedonym. I think people like Adil have gone mad: an sane person will NEVER allow his web site for the cannonization of a fascist like Tufail

  6. yasserlatifhamdani

    “A friend told me that the author was in fact Yasser Latif Hamdani writing under a psedonym.”

    Are you f-ing kidding me? The author of that piece is an *****le from Karachi who writes for ummat and who has been baying for my blood for over three years now. How ironic that some third rate loser is now accusing me of “ghost-writing” the exact anti-thesis of my political ideas.

    Your friend must have been one of those types who desperately want to put me into some sort of “right wing” bracket because I don’t agree with them on ANP and other such intellectually dishonest fallacies.

  7. Gorki

    “Are you f-ing kidding me? The author of that piece is an a-hole from Karachi who writes for ummat and who has been baying for my blood for over three years now. How ironic that some third rate loser is now accusing me of “ghost-writing” the exact anti-thesis of my political ideas”.

    Dear Yasser;

    Don’t hold back your feelings; will ya, just let us know how you really feel. 😉

    Seriously, no matter what people accuse YLH of; No one can accuse him of two things:

    Cowardice or hypocrisy.

    In years to come if Pakistan ever become the kind of nation that Jinnah had hoped on that August day; it will be in a large part due to YLH like individuals who are uncompromising in their beliefs and fight on using their pen in the face of unsurmountable odds. What a son Pakistan has produced. It should be proud.

    Regards.

  8. Hassan1657

    one thing which was missing in both the obituaries was maulana `s role in paving ZAB s road to the gallows. He pressurized one particular indvidual to change his statement.
    Not to forget the very first fight on chairmanship of Maulana Maududi in JI, the reason given by the other ameer was , Maulana is living well beyond his means and his wife does not observe pardah classically…..

  9. Ron

    “”Seriously, no matter what people accuse YLH of; No one can accuse him of two things:

    Cowardice or hypocrisy. “”

    Right Gorki saab!!!

    YLH is a great guy!!!………i am consistently impressed by him.

  10. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    I did not name the “friend” because I did not think it was important. But raving against the likes of Sherryx reeks of total jealousy. Sherryx has left many people behind. He has never hit anyone below the belt just like YLH has.

  11. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ha ha. So it was him. What a little hypocrite and loser. He is just jealous that mullahs like Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui don’t even consider him important enough to attack him.

    To leave anyone behind he would have to be in the same league first mian kapeesh?

    “Never hit below the belt”

    His entire campaign of lies, villification, abuse against me, Raza Rumi and PakTeaHouse is below the belt. Infact that is all he is: below the belt. Atleast no one here lies about anyone.

    Now be off.

  12. kashifiat

    I know, it will be filter & block but Mr. YLH you & your clad of Fashist Liberal Extremists, can’t stop us in saying truth nothing more than truth.

  13. dr jawwad khan

    kashif hafeez is the brightest addition in journalist community of pakistan.
    do you know any thing except bashing the pure souls?
    these smear campaigns are ridiculously dead before the start.
    BTW what make you angry?
    did he say some thing about q——-t? you know what i am talking about……
    guys you people are permanantly alienated by a democratic leader shaheed zulifiqar ali bhutto.who was not the religious person at all. you are constitutionally casted away by elected assembly.
    you should express your anger against zulifiqar ali bhutto and PPP rather miyan tufail mohammed, zia ul haq and a gentlemen like kashif hafeez siddiqi.
    sweet dreams

  14. Aziz Ahmad

    Dear YLH,

    EDITED

    Thanks

    Aziz

  15. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    It’s a shame calling names to a person like Sherryx who speaks the truth what may!!!!!!

  16. Ummi


    The author of that piece is an ******le from Karachi

    that foul language tells everything about you and your upbringing. I do not who is that guy but it seems that guy has really hit your nerve and have given you sleepless nights.

  17. Ummi

    @Gorki: if I get to know that my son is using abusive terms like “a-hole” then I would prefer to disown him and throw him out of my home rather than embracing him.

  18. dr jawwad khan

    “And Musharraf certainly was no Zia by any stretch of imagination”

    why is that?
    didn’t he violate the constitution and his oath?
    didn’t he sack a sitting cheif jsutice of supreme court?
    didn’t he drag pakistan at the brink of chaos?
    didn’t he sell innocent pakistanis?
    did he do some thing better for the country?
    ohhhhhhh
    yeh….he promoted you. he make you happy by destroying pakistan.
    he damaged the ideological identity of pakistan.
    he is your saviour…..right?
    but no more..a FIR is going to register against him and the days are coming when we see him pleading for mercy and you will be pleading for mercy in hereafter….
    no matter what you do. you have been casted away…and nothing can reverse that…face it

  19. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ali Hillaj,

    Come come now… How can sherryx tell the truth come what may when he lied as usual with the god awful rumor he spread that you mentioned.

  20. yasserlatifhamdani

    “sleepless nights”

    Every loser from far left to far right thinks he has given me sleepless nights… so what is new?

  21. Ron-one question??

    @@”Ummi”

    What do u call someone who is an “******le”??

    i call him “*****le”.

    You???

    Stem of a rose perhaps!!

  22. Yasir hamdani is what Hamid Mir calls liberal facist. we all know that Adil Najam has nothing to do with the ideology of Jama’at still he give space of his webpage to obituary of a Jamaat’s leader. Thats mean he belive in diversity of opinion and is not facist like you.

  23. yasserlatifhamdani

    Promoting those who have worked against religious freedom and tolerance in Pakistan is not allowing for diversity of views.

    Btw what is a “facist”? Somebody who discriminates on the basis of faces? Nice.

  24. “Promoting those who have worked against religious freedom and tolerance in Pakistan is not allowing for diversity of views”

    These are your views and may not necessarily correct. and why didn’t you write your decanting note there in comments under that post? I am sorry to say but you’re the narrow minded so called liberal who just want to impose his views on other. There is not difference between you and Taliban except that you’re at the left extreme of the spectrum and they on the right extreme and in between we moderate Pakistanis who had nothing to do with the views of those who want to impose their way of life on others.

  25. YLH

    I often wonder where people like you come from.

    How do you know I am “left extreme”. Some leftists seem to think I am a right winger. Why don’t you leave the classifications to others who know a bit about this game.

    You people persecute minorities, burn christians alive, violate every promise that was made to the citizens of this country, declare Muslims non-Muslim and side with dictators like Zia and I am “narrowminded”?

    Get a life man. I was far too restrained in my description of Mian Tufail Muhammad. I consider Tufail an enemy of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan. It is because of third rate people like him that we are in the pits today.

    Don’t call yourself moderate. There is nothing moderate about people who tolerate intolerance who tolerate religious bigotry and those Pakistanis who oppose Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan as an inclusive democratic state for all regardless of religious caste or creed.

  26. Reality Check

    Yasir, You are turning Pakteahouse into “Ahmadiyyat chanting” portal. Come out of your narrow vision, stop attacking people who have different views than yours.

    Pak Tea House is a little corner in the blogosphere that will endeavour to revive the culture of debate, pluralism and tolerance. It has no pretensions nor illusions but the motivation of a few people who want to see Pakistan a better place – where ideas need to counter the forces of commercialism, adverse effects of globalisation and extremism. And, ideas must translate into action that leads us to an equitable, just and healthy society.

    Seriously, Pakteahouse meant to be much more than a platform where a guy named “YLH” is settling his personal sectarian grudges against everyone who was part in declaring Ahmadis “Non Muslims” … there are many people including myself who are against calling Ahmadis or any other sect “non Muslim”, i condemn that part of history too, but stop making it the only issue of Pakistan and of humanity.

    Kindly come out of your ahmadi mindset and start thinking and talking like a Human (without religious division or affiliation) for a change, start respecting other opinions and let people express whatever they want to, debate with them if you are not agree, but stop asking or advocating banning anyone on any portal simply because his/her views are different than yours. Because if you will do this, you will provide an excuse for many people who will present exact same reason like you are providing in favor of why Ahmadis were declared Non muslims.

    Its sad to see how religion is ruining some bright minds.

  27. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    Despite his tirade, I support YLH if he stands for religious freedom of a group of Muslims called the Ahmedis. The Ahmedis are Muslims like the rest of us. We must not become evil Maudoodi’s instrument by suggesting that the Ahmedis are non-Muslim. Reality Check has no shame: he is an Islamofascist like Mian Tufail, Aanjhani Zia, and Maudoodi.

  28. YLH

    Ali Dashti,

    What tirade man? And what do you mean if? I am the only person in the blogosphere who has consistently spoken out for Ahmadis as well as other hapless victims of this Maududian crap not those guys who you protect for lying about me.

  29. YLH

    Reality check,

    Saying that there should be religious freedom is NOT a sectarian idea. Only in your world of warped realities can the two be similar.

    Have some shame at long last. Are you guys without all sense of fairplay?

    I pity you for what you’ve written. Shows me just how disgusting some people can be. I’ll let your post stay as evidence for people like Dr. Najam and others to see what happens when you capitulate to the enemies of Pakistan.

  30. Ahmed Chowdhry

    Liberal extremist is used often by Hamid Mir, the Taloo sympathizer quite often on Capital Talk at Geo and nobody has taken him to task for it.

  31. hamarapakistan1947

    EDITED.

  32. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear HamaraPakistan (which is clearly not Jinnah’s Pakistan),

    I doubt that you have a clue about anything you write.

    And my religion (whatever it is) is my PERSONAL faith … just as MR. JINNAH SAID.

  33. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    YLH
    I mean your tirade against Sherryx. But when it comes to the Ahmedi Muslims, I am with you and I commend you for standing up for them and against the Maudooodi, the rightful son of Mephistopheles.

  34. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ali Hillaj,

    Thanks for standing for me… but I don’t do it for applause from anyone – especially someone who is unable to distinguish between right and wrong.

  35. Are you afraid of exposing yourself, when I asked you what you think about Allama Iqbal.

    Now all of a sudden you flushed your democratic values into the toilet. Whats up with Freedom of Speech and expression. Why you are afraid of my comments han.

    If you are right then give me the answers, or you are afraid since you know you are nothing!

  36. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dr. Jawwad Khan,

    While you Mullahs were helping pass the 17th amendment… people like me were fighting for democracy against Musharraf.

    But liars, crooks, cranks, madmen and freaks like you have no honor, dignity, sense of fairness, shame when you guys jump up and down… while supporting dictators like Zia.

    You, your friend Zaid Hamid, Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui and other assorted freaks are the filth that has polluted Pakistan.

  37. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear “Hamara (not Jinnah ka) Pakistan”,

    I don’t need to answer any questions of liars and crooks like you. Get it? No I dont’. People like you are the enemies of Jinnah’s Pakistan.

    And no… I am not “afraid” of your comments. But no one likes faecal matter lying around.

  38. yasserlatifhamdani

    Anyone who has read my articles knows that I have read all of Mr. Jinnah speeches in depth and have expounded his ideas. As for Iqbal… my various articles on the man are there for everyone to read.

    I don’t think you’ve read a single speech of the Quaid beyond the nonsense that is distorted and presented in Pakstudies course books.

  39. yasserlatifhamdani

    I like your website. It is brilliant… though I am not sure what it has to do with Pakistan.

  40. Actually I have read Quaid-e-Azam speeches as Governor General. My blog is not that old as a matter of fact. When I finished his speeches, I decided right there that I have an obligation to my country. Then when I started reading Madr-e-Millat. I stopped. It was too much for me to see that we have humiliated our leaders like this.

    So I know what I am talking about here, EDITED

  41. yasserlatifhamdani

    The text of Jinnah’s most important speech is there in clear, crystal words. If you read Adil Najam’s article – he links to my article on Jinnah’s day… I’ll quote it here for your education…

    The Madar-e-Millat would have no truck with losers like you.

    Guest Post by Yasser Latif Hamdani

    Today being 11th August Day has a great significance in Pakistan’s history.

    60 years ago, Mr. Jinnah, Pakistan’s undisputed Quaid-e-Azam, Governor General and elected President of the Constituent Assembly elaborated his vision for the future of Pakistan.

    Jinnah’s vision is unambiguous.

    1. The state would be completely impartial to religion of the individual.
    2. The state where every citizen would be equal and there would be no distinction between citizen on the basis of faith or caste or creed.

    A lot of controverey has emerged about this speech. Any student of political science would tell you that is the classic exposition of a modern secular democratic state. However, the issue of whether this constitutes a “secular” state or an “Islamic” state is besides the point. A rose by any name is after all a rose.

    Here is what Mr. Jinnah said on that fateful day. It is worth reading in the full:

    I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of every one of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling the exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than has been done. A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgment there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record its verdict in favour of it. And what is more it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that that was the only solution of India’s constitutional problem. Any idea of a United India could never have worked and in my judgment it would have led us to terrific disaster. May be that view is correct ; may be it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that every one of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

    I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities the Hindu community and the Muslim community-because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabies, Shias, Sunnis and so on and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnvas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis, and so on-will vanish. Indeed if you ask me this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free peoples long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection ; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time but for this. Therefore we must learn a lesson from this. You are free ; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed-that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England conditions some time ago were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some State in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the Government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today you might say with justice that Roman Catholic and Protestants do not exists ; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen, of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

    Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

    Many have alleged that this was the only time he expressed such a vision. Unfortunately, these people are not very well versed with the life and work of Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah, who was after all a staunch secular Indian nationalist for most of his life and had turned to the Pakistan idea only after exhausting all the options for a United India.
    Here are some of his other statements regarding what kind of Pakistan he wanted:

    25th October 1947. Interview with Reuters’ Duncan Hooper note: not to be confused with his interview with Reuters’ Doon Campbell which has been quoted in detail else where.

    Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent Assembley, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan ‘if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?’

    30th October 1947. To a Mass Rally at University Stadium Lahore.

    The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.

    Same Day. On Radio Pakistan.

    Protection of Minorities is a sacred undertaking. (On Partition Massacres) Humanity cries out loud against this shameful conduct and deeds. The civilized world is looking upon these doings and happenings with horror and the fair name of the communities concerned stands blackened. Put an end to this ruthlessly and with an Iron hand.

    9th January 1948. Tour of Riot affected areas of Karachi.

    Muslims! Protect your Hindu Neighbours. Cooperate with the Government and the officials in protecting your Hindu Neighbours against these lawless elements, fifth columnists and cliques. Pakistan must be governed through the properly constituted Government and not by cliques or fifth columnists or Mobs.

    25th January. Address to the Karachi Bar association on the occasion of Eid Milad un Nabi.

    I would like to tell those who are misled by propaganda that not only the Muslims but Non Muslims have nothing to fear. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. Islam has taught Equality, Justice and fairplay to everybody. What reason is there for anyone to fear. Democracy, equality, freedom on the highest sense of integrity and on the basis of fairplay and justice for everyone. Let us make the constitution of Pakistan. We will make it and we will show it to the world.

    3rd February 1948. Address to the Parsi Community of Sindh.

    I assure you Pakistan means to stand by its oft repeated promises of according equal rights to all its nationals irrespective of their caste or creed. Pakistan which symbolizes the aspirations of a nation that found it self to be a minority in the Indian subcontinent cannot be UNMINDFUL of minorities within its own borders. It is a pity that the fairname of Karachi was sullied by the sudden outburst of communal frenzy last month and I can’t find words strong enough to condemn the action of those who are responsible.

    21st March 1948. Mass Rally at Dacca.

    Let me take this opportunity of repeating what I have already said: We shall treat the minorities in Pakistan fairly and justly. We shall maintain peace, law and order and protect and safeguard every citizen of Pakistan without any distinction of caste, creed or community.

    22nd March 1948. Meeting with Hindu Legislators.

    We guarantee equal rights to all citizens of Pakistan. Hindus should in spirit and action wholeheartedly co-operate with the Government and its various branches as Pakistanis.

    23rd March 1948. Meeting with the ‘Scheduled Caste Federation’.

    We stand by our declarations that members of every community will be treated as citizens of Pakistan with equal rights and privileges and obligations and that Minorities will be safeguarded and protected.

    13 June 1948. Speaking to Quetta Parsis.

    Although you have not struck the note of your needs and requirements as a community but it is the policy of my Government and myself that every member of every community irrespective of caste color, creed or race shall be fully protected with regard to his life, property and honor. I reiterate to you that you like all minorities will be treated as equal citizens with your rights and obligations provided you are loyal to Pakistan.

    Jinnah’s address to the people of the US in Feb 1948.

    In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.

    So what did Jinnah stand for?

    He stood for justice and fair play for every one regardless of religion caste or creed. Let us make a solemn promise to ourselves on this 11th August Day (or the day I like to call Jinnah’s Pakistan Day) that we shall honor this vision of Pakistan as a pluralist, inclusive and progressive democratic state.

    So you are the liar buddy.

  42. hamarapakistan1947

    “I wish on this auspicious day a very happy Eid to all Muslims wherever they may be throughout the world—an Eid that will usher in, I hope, a new era of prosperity and will mark the onward march of renaissance of Islamic culture and ideals. I fervently pray to God Almighty make us all worthy of our past and hoary history and give us strength to make Paksitan truly a great nation amongst all the nations of the world.” –The First Eid in Pakistan, Eid message to the Nation on 18h August, 1947.

  43. hamarapakistan1947

    EDITED

  44. hamarapakistan1947

    The Tasks Ahead: Speech at a Mammoth Rally at the University Stadium, Lahore on 30th October, 1947:

    We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight the forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Qura’n, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours…

    this is crystal clear

  45. hamarapakistan1947

    What Quaid-e-Azam said about Minorities is all in accordance to Islamic Law. Pity he knew but you know not, yet you are claiming to know what he know perfectly well.

  46. yasserlatifhamdani

    Gentlemen,

    None of the speeches you’ve quoted contradict what I have written.

    How ridiculous of you to suggest that simply because Jinnah asked his followers to seek inspiration from the Holy Quran in face of trials and tribulations, he wanted to make Pakistan a theocracy?

    What kind of ridiculous logic is that?

  47. hamarapakistan1947

    You post an arm lenght of quotes about “minority rights” (Which was not a topic of discussion) yet you ignore this one

    The Tasks Ahead: Speech at a Mammoth Rally at the University Stadium, Lahore on 30th October, 1947:
    “Remember that the scrupulous maintenance and enforcement of law and order are the prerequisites of all progress. The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Mussalman to give protection to his neighbors and to the minorities regardless of caste and creed. Despite the treatment which is being meted out to the Muslim minorities in India, we must make it a matter of our prestige and honor to safeguard the lives of the minority communities and to create a sense of security among them. I would like to impress upon every Mussalman, who has at heart the welfare and the prosperity of Pakistan, to avoid retaliation and to exercise restraint, because retaliation and violation of law and order will ultimately result in weakening the very foundation of the edifice you have cherished all these years to erect.

  48. hamarapakistan1947

    Excuse me sir, Quaid-e-Azam DID NOT say in the times of trials and tribulations. Do you not know the art of Paraphrasing???

  49. dr jawwad khan

    EDITED.

  50. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai, HMP 47

    Both of you are unanimous that Pak’s minorities need to be protected. So why are you guys fighting?

    Regards

  51. yasserlatifhamdani

    Mian…

    The speech that you refer to was made in Lahore in urdu. I have heard the whole thing in recording.

    You dont even undersand the context… Jinnah did not have the narrowminded view of “Islam” and he thought a modern democratic state was in complete conformity with Islamic principles.

    In his Pakistan… the LAW minister was a Hindu- J0gindranath Mandal (and NO he didn’t know anything about Islamic Law). In his Pakistan … Ahmadis WERE Muslims… get it?

    No you don’t. Because you are a shameless crook. Now I have wasted enough time with a loser like you.

  52. hamarapakistan1947

    I never argued about “Minority rights”
    Those who understand and have studied Islam fully recognize the rights of all Humans.

    The author Yassir Hamdani is arguing it.

  53. dr jawwad khan

    EDITED

  54. Tell me where Jinnah said that Qadianis were Muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  55. yasserlatifhamdani

    “Tell me where Jinnah said that Qadianis were Muslims”

    5th MAY 1944…. Srinagar!

    Who was Pakistan’s Lawyer before Boundary commission by the way? And who appointed him?

  56. hamarapakistan1947

    who was appointed is not the question.
    If you know him, you would not have said that!

    I asked where and when he said that they are Muslims!!!!!!!!!!!

    These are two different things.
    Just mere appointing someone doesn’t mean that you think that person is Muslim. His many good close friends were Hindus (Reformist Hindus)

  57. yasserlatifhamdani

    On 5th May, 1944, a correspondent asked Mr. Jinnah why he didn’t expel Ahmadis out of the Muslim League.

    He replied “Anyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim and I am no one to call him anything else. ”

    Why did Pakistan argue that Qadian was a Muslim holy place before the Boundary commission btw?

    BTW… why did Jinnah make a Hindu the Law Minister of Pakistan? Wasn’t law supposed to be “Islamic”.

  58. hamarapakistan1947

    For the same reason that he would ask his Hindu friend to write the first Pakistani National Enthem.

    Pakistan also wanted Delhi as part of Pakistan. Pakistan wanted many things, got not even half of it, but Alhamdolilah for what was given.

    Right he would even have help of Christians and others races to help in the creation of Pakistan so why would he cast some one group out!!!!

    And he spoke the truth the he was no one to call someone else not Muslim, when the Qadianis were not exposed to the public, yet!

  59. hamarapakistan1947

    i wrote a comment and got lost what!!!

  60. hamarapakistan1947

    you have banned me!!!!!!

  61. yasserlatifhamdani

    There are no contradictions in the references to Islam … and Jinnah’s vision for a secular state.

    These fools take his speeches out of context (the Eid message for example) but forget that when it came to law-making and constitution making Jinnah was firmly against allowing religion to creep into the constitution. And all of his speeches in the constituent assembly bear witness to the fact that Jinnah wanted a separation of church and state and stood for equal rights for all without any bars of any kind.

    To him Islam was more concerned with substance than superfluities… his Islam was of an egalitarian modern and liberal variety. He didn’t understand the Mullah and his version and made every possible to keep it out.

    As a politician he spoke to the people in their language and spoke of Islamic principles of equality, fraternity and justice… which are in no way a contradiction to secularism and democracy.

  62. hamarapakistan1947

    Why my comments are not able to get posted

  63. Ahmed Abdullah

    @ YLH

    Hello! nice to see your youthful venture with the ‘Kolumnist’. As far as I remember, you were doing the same thing almost 4 years ago at a website where your good self and your ilk were trying to modify Islam, to adjust the rights of gays and lesbians into it, and I think you were trying to declare Qadyani’s as Muslims, against the law of Pakistan(reminds me of you being a lawyer)…… you and the owner of that website (I think your wife) have always been liberal… Quite consistant!

    Your ability to write nested articles is amazing, where did you learn that????

    @ Hamara Pakistan

    Why do you get this much edited…… speaking against YLH, I guess!

    @PakTea house Admin

    Good to see that you people take sides….. I am really pleased…. After all, Allah Rabbul Alameen also takes sides, he is with the righteous people!

  64. talkhaaba

    why are you people wasting your time here? They Guy is scraping out your views in the name of editing? didn’t you people noticed it?

  65. dr jawwad khan

    @talkhaba

    yes we have noticed that and it tell me the hopeless and pathetic approach.
    the irony is that those who chants too much about tolerance and freedom are intolerant against any irrifutable comments.

  66. yasserlatifhamdani

    It is not “kolumnist” … it is Kalmnist. Get your facts right.

    As for your suggestion… yes! And I have been doing it in the intervening years as well… though I don’t think it is called modification… more like liberation from the clutches of crooks cranks and mad men.

  67. Kareem

    @Talkhaba:
    “Yasir hamdani is what Hamid Mir calls liberal facist.”

    Talkhaba, you believe that Ahmadis can be killed merely for considering themselves Muslim. You are a REAL fascist!

  68. Kareem

    @Reality Check:

    “Yasir, You are turning Pakteahouse into “Ahmadiyyat chanting” portal. ”

    Reality Check, that’s your prejudice not so disguised. Beat them up for sixty year that’s fine, mention them once and PTH becomes an Ahmadiyya portal. Shame on your bigotry.

    People like you consider themselves liberal just to feel better compared to Mullahs without any understanding of what liberalism entails. Get out of your narrowness. Show some balance.

  69. Kareem

    @dr jawwad khan:

    “kashif hafeez is the brightest addition in journalist community of pakistan.”

    Yeah if blaming everything on Qadianis can be called journalism. Even his fans are slowly starting to complain about it as their eyes are opened to the fact that kashif is trying to pull wool over reader’s eyes.. Here is one comment on his site;

    “Name : MUNIB
    Subject : Not a good post in a sense
    Comments : Sorry to say KASHIF but this one was not of your standard. We know outsider tries to hijack our issues and we know why they do it but its good to see things in their TRUE LIGHT. The fact that you cant provide any substantial material to justify the word QADIYANI in your title is not something we are used to. I mean come on, its a fashion to drag ISRAELI,INDIAN,QADIYAN etc. into just about everything to divert the real attention which is that a minority was attacked for reasons given in papers in detail. The post itself is good but forcefully dragging it to poor undefined (well it depends upon which angle you look at them) Qadianiz without substance. A minority was attacked by some idiots with the help of a local IMAM of a mosque , thats it. Now anyone can go around play here and there.”

    kahif hafeez, Talkhaba, Dr Jawwad are the typical islamofascist bigots who are scared shitless as their dream of the fascist system based on maududism is fast fading away. They are using age old techniques of lies and conspiracy theories to hold on to whatever they got for as long as they can. Every time they are challenged to prove allegations, they run away. They are cowards and bigots. Dr Jawaad has been humiliated on PTH for his claims of Ahmadi-Israeli links which proved nothing but conspiracy theories, not that he has any shame to admit his defeat.

  70. Reality Check

    @ Kareem

    Take it easy man, first i don\’t have any problem with Ahmadi people. I think calling or declaring a sect \”Non muslim\” is stupid and i fully condemn this part of history.

    The problem i have is with relating each and everything with Ahmadiyyat here on Pakteahouse by YLH. If you people think you guys are on righteous path, why you people need Pakistani Parliament or Government to issue you certificate of being muslim? Just trust your God (if he exists) that he will reward you in next world (if there is any). We Pakistanis are already divided on many issues … what the use of highlighting (most of times) another divide within Pakistani society?

    Pakteahouse is a great platform that can be used for generating good ideas for betterment of this nation, but its stupid to use it only or mostly for crying out loud about Ahmadis and their status as muslim or non muslim in Pakistan. Pakteahouse was not used to be like this, and i just want this blog to act like how it planned to act when it started.

    Mr. YLH, is making fool out of himself when he criticize other blogs or editing comments here just because he is not agreeing with other people point of view. I too, at times feel irritated while talking to some mullah minded or dictator fanboys, but i do listen to their point of view, because its important to listen to them to be able to present my point of view to them and settle down somewhere in discussion. Mr. Yassir though seems sensible but completely failed to realize that he is doing exactly what Pakistan Government did when they declared Ahmadis as Non Muslims … Its like they were doing it on large scale (Pakistan) and Yasir is doing it in here, editing, banning people\’s views who got different point of view.

  71. Kareem

    @Reality Check:

    You are being irrational not to mention grossly unfair comparing the horrible situation of Ahmadis in real life to what just one person’s is doing here in your opinion. Come off your pseudo-liberalism.

  72. dr jawwad khan

    “Dr Jawaad has been humiliated on PTH for his claims of Ahmadi-Israeli links which proved nothing but conspiracy theories, not that he has any shame to admit his defeat.”

    laugh out loud babe.
    you call it humiliation?where the moderator started threatening me…..why ….
    because i started to producing the refrences from the book of your holy prophet?
    no dear!
    its you people who were humiliated by my post.
    and i don’t have to produce any evidance because presence of qadiyani town in the strategic location of israel is the evidence itself….
    may be not convincing for you guys but it is enough for any muslim.

    and what is your biggest argument against kashif hafeez siddiqi……that some one post against him on his blog…… laugh out loud again?don’t mind if i say that you are more pathetic than YLH

  73. yasserlatifhamdani

    reality check,

    Please point out how many of your posts have been “banned” or “deleted”. If not then you don’t have any locus standi. The people who were deleted or edited were deleted or edited for other reasons…

    For example Ron wrote a post supporting me but I had to edit him because he was using excessive bad language against Dr. Jawaad Khan. Dr. Jawaad Khan was edited for abusing the entire Ahmaddiya community thereby attracting Section 295 and 295 A of PPC which states that incitement of hatred against a community is criminal and we as a website are liable.

  74. yasserlatifhamdani

    PS:

    Reality Check is a liar of the worst kind for suggesting that I am associating everything with Ahmadis. Neither this article nor most of my other articles had any thing to do with Ahmadis or their religion.

    My preoccupation mostly has been an analysis of pre-partition Muslim politics and Jinnah’s career as a politician. Anyone who is honest and not shameless bigot like Reality check can see it.

    So this lie that this person keeps repeating just shows how jaundiced and severely compromised his sense of fairness and integrity really is.

    I challenge him to pick up the last 100 articles I have written and tell us how many of those have been about the Ahmaddiya issue. But yes I will keep speaking about the injustice against Ahmadis – not because I am one (I am not!) but because I believe in Jinnah’s Pakistan.

  75. dr jawwad khan

    “Dr Jawaad has been humiliated on PTH for his claims of Ahmadi-Israeli links which proved nothing but conspiracy theories, not that he has any shame to admit his defeat”

    humiliation?……..laugh out loud babe.
    kindly keep the record staight.it was moderators who were humiliated…..that is why they started threatening me…..can any one believe that?
    always complaining ,whining and editing the posts…
    my argument was quite clear and simple. the location of qadiyani village in strategic location is convincing for any muslim….just tell any muslim and ask.
    secondly i gave the refrence from the book ‘Israel: A Profile’ by I.T Naomi. in which he talked about “600 soldiers from pakistan”
    and what is your argument against kashif hafeez siddiqi???
    that one of you just posted on the blog???
    do not mind if i say that you are more pathetic than the YLH.
    and i shall not surprize if some one tell me that you are posting in teetmaestro with the name of danial burki.

  76. D_a_n

    @YLH

    have seen you manfully try and get Reality check/’Dr’ Jawwad/Hamarapakistan to actually read what you are saying….

    but just a word of advice…..no matter how hard you try and shoo them away….commode flies never really go away…

  77. D_a_n

    (seem to have lost my post, so excuse me if this appears as a repeat)..

    @YLH..

    have seen you manfully try and get Reality Check/’Dr’ Jawwad/HamaraPakistan to actually read what Jinnah and by extension what you are saying…

    but just a word of advice…no matter how hard you try to shoo them away..Commode Flies keep coming back..

  78. @YLH
    “Reality Check is a liar of the worst kind for suggesting that I am associating everything with Ahmadis. Neither this article nor most of my other articles had any thing to do with Ahmadis or their
    religion.”

    There is no doubt that you are Qadiani so why should be you apologatic when you write “Their Religion” you are ahmedi and we have evidances and we respect you as long as you call yourselve Ahmedi and not Muslim for which the belief in Khatam-e-Nabuwwat is necessary. I hope you get the point. that point is that being ahmedi you are a respected citizen of Pakistan but you can’t call yourself a Muslim that is what our consititution says. and hope you dont edit this comment as i haven’t abused Qadiani.

  79. YLH

    1. I am not. If I was, I would proudly proclaim it.

    2. Anyone who claims to be a Muslim is a Muslim. Pakistani law and the 2nd amendment is ultra vires the fundamental rights chapter and is a bad law.

  80. YLH

    1. I am not. If I was, I would proudly proclaim it. It is utterly presumptuous of geedars like you to assume I am scared of you.

    2. Anyone who claims to be a Muslim is a Muslim. Pakistani law and the 2nd amendment is ultra vires the fundamental rights chapter and is a bad law.

  81. Hassan1657

    everybody Vs YLH,
    so this is it, this is the enlightenment, peaceful coexistance, tolerance we all ve learnt so far that you ask people about their religion….
    BTW on being asked that who is committing the greater sin when blaming somebody of Kufr, Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) said, the one who is accusing the other of Kufr….Please realize the circumstances under which the legislation was passed for anti-ahmediyya, you have no problem with jews, christians or for that matter, people from other beliefs but you have trouble with one group of people who is relatively closer than your belief, and those who hurled the legislation were the likes of people who were actually Muatazallis and the perpetrators of Hurra incident(burning / razing of Kaaba and mass rapes in Mecca and Madina in the first century of Islam )

  82. jak

    (its me dr jawwad ahmed khan-jak)
    ” Dr Jawaad has been humiliated on PTH for his claims of Ahmadi-Israeli links which proved nothing but conspiracy theories, not that he has any shame to admit his defeat”

    this is big joke. laugh out loud babe
    it wasn’t me it was your moderators who were humiliated when i started to give the refrences from the books like “roohani khazain”
    and what they did?…they started to threatening me..can any one believe that?
    about zion-qad nexus i have already gave the refrence of qadiyani town in strategic location of israel. it may be not convincing for you but it is a enough evidance for any muslim.
    also i gave the refrence of the book”israel: a profile” by IT NAOMI (a jewish professor,mentionaing about 600 qad soldiers in israeli army…..what else you needed a secrect documents???
    and what is your argument against kashif hafeez siddiqi….that some of your kind posted on his blog??? laugh lout again??
    do not mind if i say that you are more pathetic than YLH.

  83. jak

    sorry for post using duplicate id.
    but you guys are height of hoplessness

  84. kashifiat

    Hassan1967 said “Please realize the circumstances under which the legislation was passed for anti-ahmediyya, you have no problem with jews, christians or for that matter, people from other beliefs but you have trouble with one group of people who is relatively closer than your belief”

    The circumstances were that Ahamadies attcaked on a group of students who chanted slogans in favor of khatm-e-nabuwwat at Rabwa station & beat them with extreme bruitatlity. On the reaction whole nation was united & demand to declare them Non Muslims.

    It was more tha two months debate in national assembly where Ahmadies appeared in a closed seesion & presented their views direcly to NA.

    Sorry sir, Ahmadies can’t be close to Muslims, as they (Ahmadies) believes that all Muslims are basically non-muslims 🙂

  85. kashifiat

    Presence of Muneeb post where he is disagreeing with me on my website (www.kashifhafeez.com) is an open exemple of Open mindness & our enlightment. We didn’t edited / blocked it.

    But one should also quote other comments too.

  86. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    YLH
    If you send me your email, I might send you something you would like.

  87. YLH

    Kashifiat…

    You are actually comparing your website with this- in tolerance, enlightenment and freedom of expression? Look above- the comments that have been deleted or edited have been deleted and edited for bad language. Otherwise there are many more comments here – absolute filth and crap by illiterate and idiotic losers like yourself, Dr.Jawaad and others, that have been allowed posting. What kind of a crook and a liar are you? I suppose you are a typical member of that third rate subversive and comical organization Jamaat e Islami.

    are more comments by you on this website than there are dissenting comments on yours. You delete my comments all the time.

    All of your posts have been published on this board.

    However I will edit your post later to take the link out because we can’t have a shameless dishonest crook like yourself promoting his hatemongering third rate website on PakTeaHouse. So in the future if you try and put up a link to yourwebsite I’ll replace it with a link to the choicest porn site out there. If you don’t want that, stop promoting your crapsite here. I consider your website to be a blasphemy against Pakistan, Jinnah, Islam and humanity.

    You see it is not that we don’t allow freedom of speech but as I said above, giving crooks, cranks, madmen and fools like yourself space contributes to the overall unfairness as intolerant buggers like yourself

    Your claim that the ahmadiyya amendment was passed after two months of debate which you repeat again and again -even if we accept this, a fool like you would NEVER know that the National Assembly of Pakistan under the original constitutional scheme HAD NO constitutional authority to declare anyone kaafir or Muslims. Such a step would be ultra vires both the fundamental rights chapter and Islamic provisions. Pakistan’s national assembly’s sovereignty is limited by the fundamental rights chapter. So the damned law that real ENEMIES of Pakistaniat and Insaniyat – like yourself- got passed is void ab initio and at a future date Jinnah’s Pakistan will smash your ilk and throw out all such discriminatory bakwas once and for all.

    It is war to the knife. You do your worst- I’ll do my best and we shall see where we go with this. We shall Maududism and its cultish followers out of Pakistan INSHALLAH.

  88. Muhammad Hassan Miraj

    @kashifiat..
    so what about Justice M R Kiani s report

  89. yasserlatifhamdani

    “closed session”

    Only in Pakistan under that Bhutto fella and other crooks like Maududi can there be a “closed session” to make such an important open decision.

    God save Pakistan from closed sessions and other claims.

    As for Ahmadis considering other Muslims “non-Muslim” this is something I know personally to be a lie, despite all the propaganda.

    Mullahs like you spread this rumor after Zafrula refused to stand behind Maulana Usmani who considered Ahmadis Kafir. This was the public funeral of the Quaid.

    Zafrula attended the private funeral (shia) for the Quaid arranged by Fatima Jinnah however but this little fact of history is often overlooked.

    How ironic that those *****as and ***as who opposed Mr. Jinnah and called him “kafireazam” use and twist this incident to malign Jinnah’s greatest supporters.

    Shame! Shame on you Kashif and Jamaat e Islami. You are crooks and liars. Dishonest crooks and liars. Till yesterday you were giving the US ******* in Afghanistan. Now you are getting ********* by Chinese communist party. You guys deserve to be treated as the ************ that you are. And before you abuse me for bad language let me remind you that your Maulana Maududi used worst language against Jinnah and Pakistan.

  90. kashifiat

    Its the difference of moral ethics & upbringing background of Mr. YLH & his Ahmadi clad. YLH has no ethics of debates & not more than a lier. No. of times his lies has exposed.

    Here we want to clear one thing, we don’t want to engagement with freak like YLH. Our aim is just want to bring the real facts of other side to the readers.

    He is liberal Ahmadi extrimist & pseudo intellectual& nothing more & have worthless ideotic ideas.

    One can easily evaluate his depressed mental status & can do the psycho analysis of personality flaws of YLH by reading above YLH post.

    He is again telling lie people like Hamara Pakistan or Dr. Jawwad or Aziz Khan can’t use any abusive language. This is the history of YLH Clad not by the people who are ideoligically sound & aware with the manners of debate.

    Fact is that YLH can’t leave his habit of telling false statements, the fact is that he just visited one time on Kashfiat & we welcome him their because we have huge difference of tolerance level .

    It was the pressure of contributors due to which YLH forced to publish these commnets after almost a dozen editting & blockage which is his usual habit & practice.

    YLH, we will not allow you to do spread lies to the cyber audience, we will expose you every where & haan !!! you should expect some more sleepless & restless nights.

    Its over here from myside 🙂

  91. kashifiat

    “so what about Justice M R Kiani s report”

    Everybody knows the history of our judiciary is not so bright & used to to give decsions under Govt. pressures. Munir commission report is an evident example of this black history. I will say just one thing this report is worst of its kind & nothing more than a black spot of our history.

  92. kashifiat

    YLH,

    My parents training don’t allow me to use the same language which you – a liberal / Ahmadi facist is using about me.

    For your record

    1) Mr. Fazal Ahmad (from first wife)the son of Mr. Ghulam Ahmad was died in his life. Mr. Ghulam Ahmad didn’t offered his funeral as he was Muslim.

    2) According to Pakistan Times – dated 24 June 1964, Justise Munir who was the member of boundry commission stated that “I am surprised why Ahmadies submitted separate petition to commission to consider themselves (with 2% population) different from Musims, which changed the situation where Muslims were supposed to be 51% & Hindus to be 49% but after their petition the situation went in the favor of Hindues & then they become 51%. Due to this conspiracy Pakistan lost Gawaduspur & then Kashmir”

    3) In 1902 (might be I forget year) census Ahamdies registered themselves as seperate nation other than Muslims

    So consider Ahmadies as seperate religious identity is Ahmadies historical demand which was entertained by a democratic house unanimously.

  93. Majumdar

    Kashif mian,

    First of all it is an utter lie that Mirzaees registered themselves as non-Muslims and that is what cost Pakistan G’pur. In fact G’pur was a majority Muslim distt becuase Mirzaees who were a large chunk of the Muslim pop declared themselves as Muslims. Mirza Zafarullah Khan did his utmost to defend Pakistan’s cause in the Boundary Commission especially as his revered place Qadian sharif was in G’pur. But Sikhs who feared that this wud make Amritsar sorrounded by Pak on three sides bullied Radcliffe and Mountbottom into handing over Gpur to India much over MZK’s protests. The Sikhs later cleaned the Mirzaees out of G’pur and Qadian.

    Second, you seem to have come to the conclusion that the Mirzaees were not Muslims right from the time of MGAQ. In that case G’pur shudnt have been Muslim majority territory at all. So why call what happened in G’pur a conspiracy?

    Regards

  94. dr jawwad khan

    EDITED.

  95. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Dr.Jawaad,

    Why don’t you attempt to answer the questions raised instead of personal attacks that you’ve been launching from the first post?

    You guys seriously need to be sorted out.

  96. dr jawwad khan

    “Dear Dr.Jawaad”

    hahahhah that is the good one.

  97. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ok sorry…

    Dear Quack Jawwad

    Is it better now?

  98. yasserlatifhamdani

    Hamara (not Jinnah ka) Pakistan wrote:

    ” when the Qadianis were not exposed to the public, yet!”

    But according to Kashifiat they had been exposed again and again … even in 1902.

    Atleast get your stories straight.

  99. Ummi

    Jinnah? why only Jinnah? The nation calls him Quaid-e-Azam and will always remember him as Quaid-e-Azam.

  100. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ah… the last refuge of a crook. Those who called him “Kafir-e-Azam” object to my calling him Mr. Jinnah.

    Jinnah was not just a Quaid-e-Azam (the great leader) … he was Quaid-e-Azeem-tareen (the Greatest Leader) for me.

    However he himself said “I’d rather be referred to as Plain Mr. Jinnah”.

  101. kashifiat

    Majumdar

    The formula is very simple

    If Munir commission report is correct then his 1964 statement is also correct

    If 1964 statement is inaccurate then Munir commission report (darkest side of our history) is also in correct.

    The double role played by Mr. Zafarullah in boundary commission, where he gave the opportunity to Ahmadies that they present themselves as separate religious identity before commission. And ironically he provided this opportunity to Ahmadies in between the time allocated for ML. QA trusted him as a lawyer but he always betrayed him.

    YLH,

    For your (basically for readers records) information Maulana Maududi RA & JI never called QA as Kafir-e-azam, infact in the life of QA, Maulana delivered various speeches from Radio Pakistan

    Second your language about elders exposing that what you learn from your parents teaching & what I learn.

    Appointment of ZAK as FM is one of the big mistake which leads Pakistan in USA camp & also first martial law of 1951

  102. D_a_n

    @kashifiat..

    so martial law was ZAK’s fault?? and was according to his grand design? 🙂 nice! .. you have me enthralled with that story so please do expand on that little nugget…

    PS: Yes, MAR-doodi and JUH did call him Kaafir e Azam….which is why it is easier for JI and JUI people to shit square bricks rather than take MAJ’s name…and there is no exaggeration in that. I cannot actually recall anytime I have even heard them take his name…other than low level Mullah types abusing him…

  103. D_a_n

    @YLH…

    ‘Shame! Shame on you Kashif and Jamaat e Islami. You are crooks and liars. Dishonest crooks and liars. Till yesterday you were giving the US ******s in Afghanistan. Now you are getting *******d by Chinese communist party. You guys deserve to be treated as the ********s that you are. And before you abuse me for bad language let me remind you that your Maulana Maududi used worst language against Jinnah and Pakistan.’

    BRAVO man BRAVO!!!!! i didnt think such outbursts were kosher here otherwise I’d have tried one myself….but boy did it feel good to read that…
    I was wondering where you hid the Sargodhian in you! 🙂 good to see you let him out for some air…

  104. Ahmed Abdullah

    @Hamara (Muslims ka) Pakistan

    🙂

    @YLH

    “August 12, 2009 at 7:19 pm
    1. I am not. If I was, I would proudly proclaim it.

    2. Anyone who claims to be a Muslim is a Muslim. Pakistani law and the 2nd amendment is ultra vires the fundamental rights chapter and is a bad law.”

    Forget Pakistani law, talk about Islamic Law; you are saying actually, that Muhammad Sallallahu Elaihe Wasallam was wrong in proclaiming those who denied him, as Kafirs, and Musleema and other kazzabs were righteous in calling themselves as Muslims! Get Eeman man

    By any defination, a Muslim is a Person who declares that There is no God except Allah, and Muhammad Sallallahu Elaihe Wasallam is his messenger: which automatically includes his being the last prophet……. anywhere in the world accept for may be Rabwah

    Study Islam Mister, its better for you, here and hereafter…. I sincerely hope you become a Muslim

  105. dr jawwad khan

    see kashif bhai!
    they can’t even talk like gentlmen.
    what a lowlives!

  106. yasserlatifhamdani

    Kashifiat…

    Your Maududi called the idea of Pakistan an “oxymoronic Chaste Prostitute”.

    I can see how you want to say that Maududi was allowed to give a lecture on Islam in Radio Pakistan… I doubt that the order to allow this came from the GG-House… but your description of Jinnah’s appointment of Sir Zafrula Khan as being a mistake shows just how jaundiced the Jamaat-e-Islami mind is. I am not even going to respond to your lies about the boundary commission… suffice to say Pakistan laid a claim on Qadian as Muslim holy place. So this logic doesn’t work.

    As for American sphere of influence… the greatest minds in the Islamic world… called Zafrulla Khan (not Maududi) the champion of Arab and Muslim causes. President Nasser famously said that if he is a non-Muslim I would be proud to be one. Zafrulla was finest advocate of Arab causes.

    Meanwhile what was Maududi doing? After opposing Pakistan’s struggle in Kashmir , he got his “Ishtarakiat and Islam” published by the CIA.
    Deny this?

    Answer the questions …

    1. Why did Maududi oppose the Pakistan Movement? Don’t you dare deny it because you will only end up making life difficult for yourself. There is so much crap that Maududi wrote against Jinnah and Pakistan that it could take articles on its own.

    2. Why did Maududi oppose Pakistan’s Kashmir cause?

    3. Why did Maududi sell his soul and get his books published by the Americans?

    Answers to each of these questions form sine qua non to further argument.

    Maududi was an ideological prostitute. Maududi’s followers are ideological Sluts. Your Fitna Jamaat-e-fitna-e-Maududiat is a Bordello. So long as Maududiat Fitna is allowed to call themselves Muslims… there is no rationale for any other community being refrained from being called that. Fitna-e-Maududiat pur laanat!

    Abdullah mian,

    “Hamara (Muslims ka) Pakistan”

    Mr. Jinnah said clearly that Pakistan was not for Muslims alone. He is our founding father. Who are you?

  107. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Quack Jawwad

    “see kashif bhai!
    they can’t even talk like gentlmen.
    what a lowlives!”

    In order for you to qualify for treatment as a gentleman you would have to learn to spell it.

  108. Majumdar

    Yasser Pai,

    Why dont you write an article, quoting Mahatma Murdoodi’s writings in his own words much as you did once with Mahatma Gandhi on chowk?

    Why don’t you publicly make a murga out of Murdoodi like you did with Gandhi?

    Regards

  109. Ahmed Chowdhry

    I am a Muslim who follows the teachings of Mr. Gulam Ahmad – what you would label as Ahamdis. Nothing in this discussion surprises me – the personal attacks, the sheer hypocrisy, ignorance and intolerance on display is mind boggling but than it is not surprising considering the fact that we are society which relishes on what the civilized world, calls ‘hate speech.’ We hate and abuse and kill with holy glee anyone who does not conform to our twisted views be it religious or political. This hate that we have preached has made our society sick and it would eventually annihilate us from within if we don’t take measures to eliminate it from within our minds.

    Ahamdis have been at the forefront of the creation of Pakistan and later some of its best defenders, whether it is the political (Ch. Zafrullah Khan) or military field (Gen. Akhtar Hussein Malik) yet we have receive nothing in return but absolute prejudice and victimization. Still, unlike most other groups we remain totally loyal to the idea and nation of Pakistan. We believe that things will change and a more tolerant Pakistan will rise out of this mess.

    YLH – I want to thank you for being logical and factual in your arguments.

  110. yasserlatifhamdani

    No need to thank me yaar. Pakistan stands to lose most from doing what it is doing to Ahmadis. If we don’t stand for Ahmadis now, we will be condemned to the wrong side of history foreverm

  111. baigsaab

    A person who comments on his own blog so much can’t be reading useful stuff… get a life man!

    dude, i’d rather end up on the wrong side of history instead of being on the wrong side in the hereafter…. the choice is yours, the result isn’t…

    “YLH – I want to thank you for being logical and factual in your arguments.”
    And i want to spank you for being an irrational-14-year-old-crybaby-who-laughs-at-typos!!!

    Good guys, i think no reason we should be giving much attention here… this place stinks, just like someone died in the toilet…

  112. yasserlatifhamdani

    “dude, i’d rather end up on the wrong side of history instead of being on the wrong side in the hereafter…. the choice is yours, the result isn’t… ”

    Ah! Yes. Well let me put it this way… either there is no God and hereafter or if there is … it is a merciful – not a vengeful- god . Either way dude freaks like you are completely screwed.

    Happy Independence Day.

    Pakistan Zindabad.

  113. Ahmed Chowdhry

    @baigsaab – And you are stinking in your utter defeat!!

    On a serious note, you would be hard pressed to find a better Pakistani blog especially when it comes to the quality of content so your last line has no merit in it!

    Also, no need to give ideas about ‘getting a life’ to ppl. Falls flat on its face especially if coming from the school of thought which places a premium on hereafter than this life!!

  114. Ummi

    Mullahs might have called him Kafir or would be supported of United India. That was past. What one witnesses today that non-Mullahs are more busy in licking India’s toe than Molvis. Ironically liberal mullahs of today are following their forefathers. If Mullahs wanted to stay in India then modern fanatic liberals are dying confederation and even embrace Indian culture proudly. You guys will never learn. Anyways. I am enjoying your show. It’s more hilarious than any flopped and stupid punjabi movie. ;). Please continue to entertain us for few more days. 😛

  115. baigsaab

    hahahah… response in 15 minutes… see what i meant you don’t read anything else… you guys must be doped… definitely need counseling… 🙂

    @AC: The hereafter IS the real thing, trade that for this life? no way! never inshaALLAH 🙂

  116. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ha ha… so you can’t argue on facts and you resort to making up your own lies?

    Only a disgusting liar and a crook of the worst kind will either accuse me of “licking” India’s toe … or wanting a confederation with India. On the contrary, my entire body of work is for all to see… I have always stood up for an independent and sovereign Pakistan… never a confederation.

    But then again Fitna-e-Maududiat is nothing but lies and crooked analysis.

  117. baigsaab

    From babycenter.com


    Eleven reasons babies cry:
    1. Hunger
    2. A dirty diaper
    3. Needs sleep
    4. Wants to be held
    5. Tummy troubles (gas, colic, and more)
    6. Needs to burp
    7. Too cold or too hot
    8. Something small
    9. Teething
    10. Feeling overwhelmed
    11. Not feeling well

    Guys, what’s up with the lil crybaby here? 🙂

  118. baigsaab

    “Deer” (Na)Pakteahouse,

    My short encounter with you has been both enlightening and disgusting. Enlightening to see that you’re selling slugs in the name of liberalism.

    Disgusting to find out that your website didn’t deserve my comments. You guys disgust us, are irrelevant to us, not important at all!

    Talking to you will only make you visible, I’d like to set my sights high instead of seeking filth!

    Thanks but no thanks,
    A slave of RasooluLLAH (saw)

  119. yasserlatifhamdani

    If I was to take a I’d say you have a dirty diaper. Which is why you are in need of moral cleansing. guess

  120. yasserlatifhamdani

    Aww poor baby. Are you running away?

  121. kashifiat

    YLH

    Jawab-e- hahilan, basad khamosshi

  122. AZW

    @ Majumdar:

    “Why don’t you publicly make a murga out of Murdoodi like you did with Gandhi”

    I can’t say that anything has made me laugh out loud as this sentence. Priceless. Love the word “murga” here.

    On a side note, Yasser I agree with Majumdar. Nothing like a compilation of Moudoudi’s speeches against the idea of Pakistan and Jinnah would be an excellent write up at PTH. The ideological guardians of Pakistan have a nasty habit of being on the wrong side of every major historical event in Pakistani history: 1954 riots, 1971 dismemberment, 1974 decision to excommunicate the Ahmedis, 1979 Bhutto’s judicial murder, supporting the Mard-e-Momin Zia-ul-Haq, supporting the Taliban and their ilk.

    How one party can consistently remain so wrong for so long is a true testament to the grabage that it has always been.

    @BaigSaab:

    Well, it was short trip, but thanks for coming by. I see you have been trying to make your presence and your quick departure known to all and sundry for the last few posts. Please make sure you don’t hit your head on your way out.

    Regards,

    Adnann

  123. AZW

    Yasser:

    Another suggestion regaring deleted posts:

    I agree that foul language should not be welcomed here. From Dr. Jawwad’s previous efforts, I realize that he can sink to new lows quite effortlessly.

    However, it is my view that his comments not be deleted for 48 to 72 hours, so that people can at least see their foul language. Insert a comment that these comments will be deleted later but have been left here for people to see the true colours of these participants.

    I know it is more work for you, however I think it is an important step in shining some light on the dark matter that graces PTH these days.

    Adnann

  124. bonobashi

    @AZW

    Regarding your last post to Baig Saab (sic).

    It was gratifying to note your concern for the doorpost. On this subcontinent we do not maintain our buildings and structures after having built them and seemingly exhausted them. Your note hit just the right civic chord. Thank you.

  125. bonobashi

    @AZW

    Sorry. That should have read,”…and seemingly exhausted ourselves in doing so.”

  126. karun

    @ Majumdar:

    “Why don’t you publicly make a murga out of Murdoodi like you did with Gandhi”

    how unbecoming of you to make such comments, bono you like to know what incites my anger, its cheap comments like this, imagine if i say something like this against your beloved jinnah…

    lets not descsend to such lows….shame on you majumdar….by the way i have read the post by YLH…it is factually absurd and derogatory…pick up gandhis complete works..you will find the retort yourself

  127. dr jawwad khan

    @karun!

    i think these lowlives are inspired by the language of their holy prophet.
    did you read the “roohani khazain”?
    i am sure that even a qadiyani can not read it in front of his family member?

  128. kabir

    YLH,

    Though I disagree with you on certain issues, I have to admire the way you consistently engage with these bigots and continue to argue for Jinnah’s vision of a secular, and liberal Pakistan– a “muslim homeland” but not an “Islamic state”.

    Also, thank you for keeping up the good fight against declaring Ahmedis non-Muslim. I totally agree with you that the state has no business deciding who is Muslim or not. Even the scripture says that if someone declares himself (or herself) a Muslim, then it is only for God to judge.

    Sincerely,

    “Bhagat” Kabir

  129. bonobashi

    @Karun

    I found a remark addressed to me placed rather subtly in your post to Majumdar-dada (may his tribe increase). As you can see, as I am not allowed as a kaffir to dabble with concepts relating to religious honorifics, it seems like a good idea to coin my own or import neutral ones.

    There are several points worth picking up from your remarks.

    1. In these discussions, do we owe courtesy and deference to each other’s idols?
    2. For that matter, do we owe courtesy and deference to each other?
    3. If our idols or revered leaders are attacked, how should we react in turn?
    4. What is appropriate evidence for or against an historical position?

    May I try to comment on these from an entirely personal point of view? This is because you have raised the matter, and I request your patient attention.

    In general, if there is no difference in our evaluation of different historical positions, there is not much purpose in putting out this blog/ web-site/ electronic magazine, whatever you wish to call it. It is to be hoped that there will be direct connections to the history, including the pre-history of Pakistan, and, if not, that there will be an effort to relate whatever we write to the present state and development of Pakistan.

    We are sometimes frivolous, and you will have noticed cross talk and chatter of a light and humorous nature. This levity at a serious forum may kindly be forgiven; as Robert Morley put it on screen, “A little laughter is good for the digestion.” And he should have known. AZW’s send-off to Baig Saab is a sparkling example of this.

    So be sure that most posts that draw comment have the seeds of controversy within them. If you are worked up about a posting, you will reply; unless you are paid by number of lines submitted to the blog, you will not bother otherwise. Controversy, therefore, is built into the structure.

    §4: What is appropriate evidence? A set of instances and statements from diverse, preferably opposing sources. Citing one authority to the exclusion of all others obviously does not convince; even more, citing an authority in his or her own defence is useful only while keeping in mind the obvious tendency of human beings to aggrandise themselves, usually in an untruthful way.

    Using Gandhi in defence of Gandhi, or Jinnah in defence of Jinnah, is inappropriate, except for matters of fact,” Did Gandhi go to Noakhali? Yes, he did.” Did he think that untouchability was wrong? Yes, he did.

    What were his feelings towards Jinnah and Nehru and Patel? Can’t say; we must examine a spectrum of writing, preferably by contemporaries, apply judgement to their accuracy and to the degree of personal bias of their respective authors.

    §3. If we accept that differences of opinion will be present, have to be present at each blog, what then is our reaction to the criticism of a position spilling over to criticism of a personality, or personalities identified with that position?

    Unfortunately, on several matters, we are faced with a stark choice: one or the other leader must be wrong. We can support Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah, or we can support Maulana Maududi; we cannot reasonably support both! So we may from time to time have to consider the personalities and doings of individuals.

    In doing so, I believe that we may profitably exclude the personal aspects of such lives and personalities. As far as I know, this has been followed carefully, not due to fiat, but due to the common sense of posters. A wonderful demonstration of good manners.

    I am glad to say, from an equalising point of view, that there are dreadful exceptions and that they come from all quarters of the compass, from Indian, from Pakistani, from arch-Sanghi, from secularists, from Islamists – from everywhere.

    What clearer evidence of the central position of this site can there be but this example of the cross-section of objecting message writers?

    My personal understanding is that one assumes goodwill, and proceeds with the thought that human beings are error-prone, and that they may at times be selfish, vain, mendacious (yes, truly, even politicians!!), jealous and spiteful. These may or may not have a bearing on their contributions to society and to history. We have to take these into account when we discuss their roles.

    At this point, I would like to introduce to you an outstanding and in some ways an unusual characteristic of this web-site. A surprising number of Indians who have been contributing on a regular basis are ‘sceptics’ and ‘unorthodox’ Indians. We have been disabused, either ab initio, for various political and social reasons, or have become disillusioned about the conventional wisdom prevailing both about the leadership and the path to independence of either country. That is, some of us no longer feel that what was said about India’s road to freedom in Indian circles and popular lore, and consequentially about India’s leaders, is wholly accurate; this has gradually led to a corollary, that the narrative of Pakistan’s achieving partition and independence (please note my careful wording) is also distorted, as we have heard it.

    Unfortunately, among those whose critical faculties are muscular rather than cerebral, this has led to accusations of having ‘sold out’ to the Pakistani school of thought regarding these issues. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of the four or five who are regular posters, each of us has a distinctly different stand with regard to these historical events. With regard to the ongoing progress of Pakistan, our opinions converge somewhat, and there are perhaps two schools, the hopeful and the positive.

    So if you came to this web site expecting a regurgitation of the standard idea that prevails in Indian circles, even broad-minded Indian circles that is unrealistic. It is also extremely useful to consider the extensive debate that has already taken place on this forum on other occasions. I believe that much of what is seemingly abrasive and jarring during your recent exchanges may be explained satisfactorily through a study of these exchanges.

    Of the four who contribute in the most sustained manner, two are Punjabis and two are Bengalis. There has long been a suspicion in Bengal about the roles of better-known Indian leaders, stemming from the blunt refusal of Gandhi during the Tripura Congress to accept the democratic election result putting in Subhash Bose as the Congress President. It was a harsh demonstration of his iron rule that the election was overset and his nominee placed.

    There was therefore a predilection, an inbuilt disposition in some parts of India to look at Gandhi with some suspicion. His favourite son, Nehru, was certainly not Bengal’s favourite son. This may help you to understand that although in general Bengal thought highly of Gandhi, to understate the matter, it was not unalloyed adulation. So too about Nehru; and regarding Patel’s brilliant work in unifying the Indian states, a state that had been divided twice in fifty years was in no mood to acclaim that other grand campaign of unification.

    Under these circumstances, when the roles of different leaders are examined, what appears apparent to us few sceptics is the less than godly impartiality, the less than apparent understanding of the other point of view, the less than magnanimous acceptance of the fears, some unfounded, some real, of the minorities, of whom many came forward, but only one prevailed.

    This does not mean that we see other leaders, including Pakistani, with rose-tinted spectacles; it is just that there is a time and a place to point out the feet of clay of others’ leaders. We are frankly here to learn what the possible alternative points of view are, not to get into a mud-slinging match, where final victory depends on how much we have denigrated somebody else’s venerated leaders. That is for them to understand and state.

    §1 Do we owe courtesy and deference to each other’s idols? And firmly held beliefs and credo? (Please note that I am placing this before §2, in the interests of logic).

    Yes, indeed. And this is emphatically not a reciprocal matter. I believe personally that we each must stand by what we think is appropriate and seemly, and not be triggered into action by what others do. If you believe that someone has spoken harshly about Gandhi, Nehru, Patel or any other Indian leader, I can only suggest to you my own course of action – to examine that leader’s actions in the light of the criticism made and come to my own conclusions. These might or might not be reflected in my postings; unlike a legal contract, silence does not mean consent. Again, continuing, it does not behove us to denigrate their great leaders; let them take up that burden themselves, it is not our burden. If they choose to take positions that we disagree with, it is possible to point this out, with courtesy and deference to their feelings, and if there is no reasonable response, we are free to draw our conclusions on the available evidence.

    Speaking entirely for myself, I come to these discussions to learn, not to teach. My final conclusions are not reported here. My final provisional conclusions about the Idea of Pakistan have been hinted at; however, I am firmly of the belief that this last needs to be the special field of study of Pakistanis themselves. (D_a_n, we may disagree on this on a point of philosophy, I trust).

    §2 Do we then owe courtesy and deference to each other? Oh, I certainly believe so.

    In this connection, I have two incidents to narrate. In the first, the earlier, I was grossly misrepresented by an elder and a better, which truly hurt my feelings. On a clear explanation, however, I received what was an effective response, the charges were not pressed. Since then, I have received a hearing, not always a consenting hearing, but a hearing. Considering the awesome profile of the personality involved, that is sufficient. That is with regard to criticism faced.

    On the other hand, what nearly destroyed my peace of mind for an extended period was a horrible mistake, in taking a light and mischievous frolic as the real thing, and reacting to that. I have still not completely forgiven myself.

    Does one always turn the other cheek? Not necessarily; on rare occasions, it may be required to smite the enemy hip and thigh. If it is possible, look up a character called ‘Archaeo’; it will reassure you that all is not pap and porridge.

    I hope that I have been able to convey to you that it is possible to use this forum for pleasure and profit without losing peace of mind or self-respect. If you disagree, I will be happy to discuss your thoughts further, again, preferably off list.

  130. dr jawwad khan

    this is the problem.
    You are not ready to accept the fact that pakistan is an ideological islamic state. islam is in its genesis.
    Constitution says that “qarardad e maqasid” has solved this issue a long ago.
    No matter how ridiculously you try to prove, the fact is you can not have an anti Islamic law in pakistan. People of Pakistan are happy with that. World community doesn’t have a problem with that. International laws don’t say any thing against it. Real minorities are happy with that. Only the bunch of liberal fascists and the Qadiyanis are unhappy and can’t see what is written on the wall.
    You liberal fascists are still living in a dream world.
    Well dear!
    This dream is going to turn into nightmare. i hope soon your glorious pervez musharraf will be bagging for mercy.

    (it seems that there is some problem in your dictionary. Look again.
    You are the perfect example of bigot not us)

  131. bonobashi

    @Dr. Jawwad Khan

    Whom were you addressing with your last post? It is not clear.

  132. dr jawwad khan

    @bonobashi.

    all liberal fascists and qadiyanis.

  133. D_a_n

    @ Dr. Jawwad

    you spake:

    ‘…pervez musharraf will be bagging for mercy’ …

    How does one ‘bag’ for mercy?? Is it take-away mercy?

  134. dr jawwad khan

    @D-O-N!

  135. dr jawwad khan

    @D-O-N!
    sorry! my fault.
    its “begging for mercy” seems like “slip of fingers” 😉

  136. kabir

    @dr jawwad,

    Pakistan is not an ideological Islamic state. The father of the nation, Jinnah sahib was very clear about that (See the August 11 speech).

    I admit there is some confusion about the idea of Pakistan. Post Zia, there are some elements in the nation who perhaps want Pakistan to be “Islamic”, but there are many people who want a secular, liberal homeland for South Asia’s muslims.

    Who are you to judge whether someone is Muslim or not? Only Allah has that right.

    All I can do is repeat Faiz sahab’s words about where we are as a nation today: “Yeh dagh dagh ujhala, yeh shab-guzidaa sehr….”

  137. kabir

    Also, the people of Pakistan don’t elect Islamic parties into power, despite all of Musharraf’s support to the MMA (and vice versa).

    We have elected the PPP, a party which has pledged to support democracy and liberal principles in Pakistan.

  138. dr jawwad khan

    ohhhhh i did it again.
    sorry “d-a-n”. but what i do? actually your id sounds more freaky than your thoughts.
    also i am fed up of “slip of a finger”. especially my “middle finger” is problematic. may i give it you(my middle finger)?

  139. karun

    If you believe that someone has spoken harshly about Gandhi, Nehru, Patel or any other Indian leader, I can only suggest to you my own course of action – to examine that leader’s actions in the light of the criticism made and come to my own conclusions. These might or might not be reflected in my postings; unlike a legal contract, silence does not mean consent. Again, continuing, it does not behove us to denigrate their great leaders; let them take up that burden themselves, it is not our burden. If they choose to take positions that we disagree with, it is possible to point this out, with courtesy and deference to their feelings, and if there is no reasonable response, we are free to draw our conclusions on the available evidence.

    “quite gandhian in the approach i must say”

  140. bonobashi

    @karun

    If labelling is required, I have no objection to being covered by that label, so long as you understand that no idolatry on my side is involved, nor is there any intention to subscribe wholesale to whatever Gandhi proposed. He had an extensive programme, and if this response of mine seems Gandhian to you, I feel gratified, but the rest of his programme, his thinking about the response of caste Hinduism to Harijans/Dalits, his definition of secularism, his placing certain political tactics above the law of the land, his resorting to moral blackmail to overturning democratic results, all these are not morally acceptable to me.

    Does the rest of my post seem reasonable to you?

  141. D_a_n

    @dr. Jawwad…

    no need to get cute…the only time the words bag, mercy and people like you come to mind in one sentence is that someone should put us out of our misery and put people like you in a bag preferably in a hole somewhere….
    for that is the only place Fitna belongs.. buried deep deep underneath…

    and as for you giving me you shriveled scrawny middle finger…..you may proceed I guess but best be careful, i have teeth in all sorts of places so you might not get it back…..

  142. karun

    There has long been a suspicion in Bengal about the roles of better-known Indian leaders,

    I know bengalis have issues with gandhi, that explains a lot, but you dont flog your father in the public and that too someone whose stature is undentable (because he was unfraid, he chose to be open, he laid bare his life to be scrutinised and commented and abused as in this case).

    at the same time you would notice bengalis (not one of them) speak agaisnt ‘netaji’ even though we went and allied himself with Nazi hitler. Hero worship certainly…without a degree of moral remorse

    Given these apparent idiosyncracies how can i assume that you people are liberal and do not believe first and expound next.

    YLH has his set views – he justifies
    Majumdar is a right winger(rajaji patel)-he justifies

    Gorki is the most gentlemanly amongst you fr sure

    civil dialouge still is possible even if you have already laid bare your positions and sympathies. but personality bashing is not justified and i repeat that majumdars conduct was shameful.

    i wonder despite all your differences you people seem to agree on jinnah and thats the tacit understanding between you people and YLH and thats why it doesnot become acrimonious. perhaps you do not choose to speak your mind about jinnah keeping in mind the civility of discussion which of course is flouted openly in case of gandhi.
    this is unacceptable and shameful

  143. dr jawwad khan

    @kabir!
    then what about the recorded history? Quaid’s other speeches from which I have quoted a few.
    Should we discard it all? …because you people do not like it.
    Its not the matter of speech for God sake….this is the history. Pakistan movement is a recorded history. no matter how much you dislike it. It will remain a history.
    Or you are trying to say that Quaid made these speeches to attract the masses like a cheat, opportunist and corrupt politician?
    BTW the 11 august speech was in complete accordance of Islam, reflecting the rights of minorities in islam. Do not try to misinterpret it.

    Here I would like to give one more reference from his last speech at the inauguration ceremony of state bank of Pakistan on 1st July, 1948:
    “The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”

  144. dr jawwad khan

    “i have teeth in all sorts of places so you might not get it back…..”

    FREAKO

  145. hayyer 48

    @Karun
    If by father you meant Gandhi include us out.Nor is he father of any nation.There is no law that I know which requires Indians to treat him as such against their inclination. you canlove your countrywithout loving Gandhi.

  146. YLH

    Dr.jawwad khan,

    If the 11th August is in accordance with Islam what is your problem in implementing it?

    1. Making religion personal matter.

    2. Eradicating distinctions between Muslims and Non-Muslims.

    3. Removing all bars against every citizen of Pakistan?

    4. Guaranteeing that there would be no discrimination against any citizen?

    And you speak of the state bank speech. Surely you don’t think we have any problem with Islamic Economic ideals of justice and fair play and equality. To me that speech is complete conformity with Jinnah’s vision for a secular state.

    The problem with you people is that you hide behind the few and far between references to Islam…when it is clear that Jinnah stood for equality of all citizens deny it if you can.

    How can you then justify the treatment of minorities in Pakistan?

    The truth is that you people know that you are a bunch of crooks.

  147. YLH

    As we approach that critical 00:00 hrs I wish Pakistanis and Indians a Happy Independence Day for this is the exact time of the birth of both states as per Indian independence of India Act 1947.

  148. Ali Hillaj Dashti

    YLH
    In Lahore’s credible intellectual circles a rumor is doing rounds about one Yousaf Alamgirian whose writes for Zaid Hamid’s web site. It is rumored that it is you posing as Alamgiran. My own investigation tells me that it is a Karachi-based Jamaat-e-Islami fascist who does that. Before this rumor finds a mention on some of the respected web sites (I don’t want to name them), you better come out with a clarification.
    Regards

  149. bonobashi

    @YLH

    Thank you for your good wishes. May I join you in extending good wishes to the people of both countries, and also of Bangladesh, who all gained Independence around eight hours ago this day in 1947.

    I hope for the progress and prosperity of all people of the sub-continent, especially the people of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.

  150. bonobashi

    @karun

    I understand that you are angry and think someone ought to apologise.

    Unfortunately, there is a thing called a pitcher going too often to the well; you are always angry, so people don’t find anything unusual or uncommon in your behaviour, and most fail to take note of it, either of the lack of content or the personal attacks which it seems are seen to be a perfectly adequate substitute for logic.

    It is depressing to write patiently and at length in order to explain things to a person who apparently doesn’t bother to read it. I thought you may need an insight into matters which was not available to you. To find thereafter that he has absorbed not a bit of it, and persists in his old debating style of jumping up and down in place and flinging pieces of poo (his own, one hopes) towards his opponents. Did none of what I wrote make sense to you?

    There has long been a suspicion in Bengal about the roles of better-known Indian leaders,

    It is a matter of some surprise how sweeping generalisations like this can be made with a straight face. What, precisely, is the basis of your remark? Could you point me in the direction of any analysis and finding to this effect? How long is long? Since the ferocity of Shashank of Gaur around the 9th century? Since the propagation of the Puranas in proto-historic times, which proclaimed that caste boundaries stopped at Gaya? Was it later, during 1905, during the First Partition of Bengal? Was it during Gandhi’s manipulation of the Tripura Congress? Was it when Nehru appointed Mehr Chand Khanna Minister for Relief and Rehabilitation and over 90% of funds were used to ameliorate the wounds, shock and horror of refugees from the Punjab, Sindh and other parts of what was later West Pakistan?

    I know bengalis have issues with gandhi, that explains a lot, but you dont flog your father in the public and that too someone whose stature is undentable (because he was unfraid, he chose to be open, he laid bare his life to be scrutinised and commented and abused as in this case).

    Your response gets more controversial still as we move along.

    “Bengalis have issues with Gandhi”: I don’t think so. Individual Bengalis have views about individual leaders. A very large number of Bengalis still admire Gandhi. Another large number do not.

    Generalisation of the sort that you have used is tendentious in the extreme.

    Leaving these sweeping statements aside, I take strong exception to attempts at emotional blackmail.

    Gandhi was not my father, is not my father and will never be my father. He was a consummate and very effective politician, who captured the imagination of a very large part of Indian society, including, for a section of time, Muslims in India, with his mobilisation methods. Until the incorrigibly Hindu elements in his political beliefs became clear and put off several sections of society, notably the minorities, he was a very popular leader, more popular, more listened to, more ‘revered’ even, than any other. Unfortunately his religious and his social views turned off many, both to his left and to his right. Criticising his actions, his ideology and his philosophy is legitimate, not least of all because if one sets out to make an open book of one’s life and even its intimate elements, one must expect people to read it.

    Is it your inevitable practice when faced by facts that you cannot refute to resort to invective of a particularly racist and fascist variety? A criticism of Gandhi by a Bengali, as might appear by his name, invites a scurrilous attack by you on an entire race, unsupported either by logic or fact? For a vaunted patriot, always to be seen on your metaphoric white steed with the oriflamme in your hands, you have a peculiar sense of loyalty to your fellow citizens. Or are Bengalis some variety of untermensch, for whom you have your Final Solution?

    Where have you come from and what and whom do you represent? Are you truly Indian?

    at the same time you would notice bengalis (not one of them) speak agaisnt ‘netaji’ even though we went and allied himself with Nazi hitler. Hero worship certainly…without a degree of moral remorse

    Rubbish.

    I can prove you wrong on this immediately. I have spoken and written passionately against Subhash Bose, whom some sycophants and rabid followers call ‘Netaji’; where were you on those occasions? And how can you make yet another sweeping statement?

    If you have been reading the papers lately, West Bengal has elected the CPM led Front to power for the last 30 years. Instead of making an ass of all Indians on a foreign forum, why don’t you look up the left’s characterisation of Netaji before you jump into action? Is a 30-year leadership party sufficiently majoritarian for you? Or would you rather stick to your ‘feel’ for the situation?

    Given these apparent idiosyncracies how can i assume that you people are liberal and do not believe first and expound next.

    Before I forget, an excursus into grammar and orthography.

    I have been a sometime student of political science, my minor subject at Presidency forty years ago, so my political science is a little rusty. Painstaking effort got me to understand that there were several varieties of rule: autocracy, aristocracy, democracy, and perhaps one or two more. Nowhere did ‘idiosyncracy’ occur. Is this coinage as idiosyncratic as your politics and your analysis?

    However, you will complain that this is a digression. That is quite true. Let us continue to put the bright light of reason on your iniquities. You ask, in an amazing flight of arrogance, how you can assume that ‘we people’ are liberal. I do beg your pardon! Did it seem to you that we were grovelling before you asking for a certificate?

    You mention the possibility that we believe first and expound next.

    I have come to the conclusions expressed in these columns after more than forty years of study. This may, or may not indicate deliberation before decision.

    May one ask about your antecedents? May I ask that you prove that you are not an immature, ill-read fan-boy venting the spleen of your unhappy daily life in these poisonous ways?

    Finally, the most breathtaking effrontery: you have not gone through even a little bit of the archived discussions and deliberations, where step by step, point by point, Hayyer48, Majumdar, Gorki and I were given evidence, chapter and verse, all in academically correct text, of a set of conclusions about partition. We have not all of us accepted all of the exposition. But it exists, in meticulous format, well-annotated by the tightly argued statements on both sides.

    And you have the flipping cheek to parachute in and declare yourself the arbiter of our liberalism and politics? Have you absolutely no shame? Or is it the enabling anonymity of the Internet that is on display?

    YLH has his set views – he justifies
    Majumdar is a right winger(rajaji patel)-he justifies
    Gorki is the most gentlemanly amongst you fr sure

    What a shameful thing to be sure! Imagine: he holds a view and justifies it! Amazing. What will these perverts come up with next?

    I understand that your next set of difficulties is with YLH and Majumdar: they have set views (YLH) or are right wing in sympathy (Majumdar) and they both ‘justify’. Unless you are making an arcane reference to the word-processing manoeuvre, I am frankly mystified. What do you expect somebody to do to uphold his views? Run them down? And what has that to do with anything? What is your point?

    You might have noticed that everyone – every single person, including yourself – has a point of view and ‘justifies’. What are you trying to convey with that cryptic observation?

    The difficulty is that you don’t really have a point of view. Somebody has taught you – I hope and wish it is a case of auto-pedagogy – that the way to debate is to attack relentlessly from the outset, and preferably the person and not the argument. If you examine your own effusions, that is all that you have done.

    My question to you is: do you have a point of view in all this? Or are you here on a war-fighting mission? If the latter, why don’t you remove yourself to Chowk, where you will get the peers, the language and the reasoning that you deserve?

    civil dialouge still is possible even if you have already laid bare your positions and sympathies. but personality bashing is not justified and i repeat that majumdars conduct was shameful.

    I am sorry. I disagree. Laying bare your positions and sympathies is called ‘transparency’. It has nothing to do with the possibility of a civil dialogue. A civil dialogue is possible when the two or more contending sides have cogent, coherent points of view, which can be defended by reasoning and argument, and not by strident and violent language alone, nor by ad hominem attacks. If you deplore them in Majumdar, you should refrain from them yourself.

    You may wonder about Majumdar and his views, and the reactions to them. You called them shameful. Majumdar’s views are shameful, but not the ones that came to your juvenile notice. His remarks about Gandhi were immature and in a spirit of schoolboy humour; that may of course be a reason for your great indignation, as being something to which it is easy to relate.

    In one of the two intelligent things that you said, you said that personality bashing was not justified. I agree. Do you yourself really think so? Is it reflected in your posts?

    May I recommend that you dig up a copy of the Bible and look up the passage Luke 4:23? It may be useful.

    i wonder despite all your differences you people seem to agree on jinnah and thats the tacit understanding between you people and YLH and thats why it doesnot become acrimonious. perhaps you do not choose to speak your mind about jinnah keeping in mind the civility of discussion which of course is flouted openly in case of gandhi.
    this is unacceptable and shameful

    On Jinnah, my views have been presented specifically to you patiently and at length. What caused you to ignore that, the long and difficult words, or the length of the passage? You do not seem to have a single meaningful thing to say about that, except to bang on about our tacit understanding with YLH not to attack him. Why don’t you read first what is the basis for some of us entering this discussion with YLH in the first place? Can’t we expect you to spend that little time to understand before shooting your mouth off?

    The fact is that we are discussing these issues because (in my personal case, at least) I wish to confirm certain hypotheses that had been generated by a sense of disquiet about some actions of Gandhi. Here I have found the answers, and as usual, in historical matters, the truth lies somewhere between what YLH passionately and effectively advocates, and the two-dimensional opposition from great authorities like Dominique Lapierre.

    The fact is that I am not here to attack Jinnah or to defend Gandhi. If you believe, yourself, that Gandhi needs defending, what stops you? Why don’t you oppose argument with argument, put forth the correct historical interpretation, state what you have read up about the intentions of the political leadership headed by Gandhi? Why instead do you choose to fly off the handle, hurl shuriken at everyone in sight and some not in sight, and plunge off the closest edge into a sheer drop with a manic laugh? You are making a bad parody of the whole thing, and your continued bad temper and worse manners is getting quite tiresome.

    You should know that ill-mannered Indians – apparently YLH thinks you are an Indian, having overlooked the possibility that you are a Pakistani out to give all Indians a reputation for being ill-mannered idiots without the brains to maintain an argument for even a single paragraph, a sort of Jawwad Khan draped tastefully in a tricolour – are never deleted on PTH. YLH has inherited a sinister streak of cruelty from some long-forgotten ancestor, and allows these excrescences to remain on display for the amusement of all.

    Let me finish, on this happy day, on a bright note, almost, if you will, a coruscating note.

    Your comment about Gentleman Jim Gorki, he of the bejewelled scalpel, a diamond in his front tooth and two tone shoes with gaiters, is one of two things in your post that I can agree with.

  151. Gorki

    Karun:

    I can understand how you are upset at Majumdar’s remark about Gandhiji but I do agree one hundred percent with Bonobashi that any broad generalizations that you tend to make in your own posts about any group; be it the Bengalis of India or for that matter about the Pakistanis, are not only unfair (besides being absurd) they also tends to diminish the wieght of your arguments.

    Moreover such general condemnation negates the very spirit of the man for whom you seem to be speaking out.

    I do not condone calling anyone names; least of all a man revered by millions but I also feel that the biggest tribute one can pay to this fine son of India would be to ask one self a question:

    What would Gandhiji do in such situations?

    The answer that you (or I) will hear inside our heads may not be one and the same, since it will depend upon what Gandhiji means to you or to me respectively. Only I doubt it will be to respond in kind by hurling abuse either at Majumdar Da (or an icon that he may hold dear.)

    The biggest tribute that you and I (or any other Indian for that matter) can pay to our heroes; Gandhiji or Nehru (who I am on record on the PTH as calling one of the all time greatest sons of India) is to make sure we stand up for the rights of all, including Majumdar Da and Hayyer Saab to be able to speak up their minds, to criticize any one including them, without fear and still be proudly called fellow Indians.

    An unrelated fact is that Majumdar Da and I disagree on many issues and debate often. On one occasion when I was defending Netaji as a national unifier he called him ‘an idiot’. So there goes your theory about Bengalis since this one Bengali Babu is an equal opportunity flame thrower. ;-).

    Over time I have learnt a thing or two about Majumdar Da; one of them is that he takes a preverse pleasure in unsettling his opponent by such silly name calling. It is nothing more than a debate tactic designed to distract his opponent and get under his skin. ;-).
    Learn to ignore it; it will make you a better debater. ;-).

    Have a happy Independence Day.
    Regards.

  152. Pingback: The liberal image of ‘Pak Tea House” is at stake. « Kashifiat’s Blog

  153. bonobashi

    @Gorki

    Please enrol my name among those who think Subhash Bose was an idiot.

  154. Ummi

    “who writes for ummat”

    Umm.. Ummat might not be so popular like Jang or Dawn but the fact is that :

    1)It has more readership than this blog
    2)Due to Urdu content, Ummat authors can penetrate in Pakistani awam more easily than you.

    Therefore your tired-less and “girl like” Whining is not going to be heard anyway. You guys remind me a group of kids who were busy in playing playstation of XBox in a room and started fighting due to some reason. Nobody listen what’s happening in the room despite of they make noise alot.

    Raza Rumi, I think the reputation of your blog is at stake. It has completely been hijacked by a teenager who is willing to impose his views. The kid who whines a lot and does nothing.

    p.s: I know YLH would delete the comment by declaring it “Blasphemous”

  155. kabir

    Happy Independence Day, India and Pakistan. I hope the following year brings us closer and not further apart

  156. YLH

    Ali Dashti,

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

    I have nothing to do with whoever Mr.Alamgirian is. Furthermore whatever opinions have right or wrong are always under my own name. As a lawyer of some standing and the amount of time I spend here, I don’t have the time or patience to also pose as another person especially with diametrically opposing views.

    My guess from the name that he is an alumnus of Military College Jehlum. If I would have chosen a name it would be Sargodhian.

  157. Ummi

    Kashifiat seems to expose you further. This time by this post.

    kashifiat.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/the-liberal-image-of-%E2%80%98pak-tea-house%E2%80%9D-is-at-stake/

    🙂

  158. YLH

    Ummi,

    If third rate ****** like him – crooks who follow fitna maududiat – can expose me somehow I will simply give up. And go.

    So nice try but kashif siddiui is a crook. And his newspaper is a joke.

  159. YLH

    Honest people should definitely read his article and see what kind of liars and crooks the followers of fitna e maududiat are!

    Thanks for the publicity.

  160. AZW

    Yasser:

    If you wish to delete other comments for foul language, please make sure that the same rules apply to you as well.

    This is not the question of who is right or wrong. You are using language that is totally unbecoming for PTH. As much as I disagree and dislike Kashif’s writings, I strongly condemn your language and the words against him. This language is best used on street corner, or on a third rate website, but I expect a lot better at PTH.

    I hope you would not let your personal feelings get the better of you.

    Adnann

  161. dr jawwad khan

    a sordid response from a liberal jackass.
    seems that gentle,graceful and intellectual response of kashif hafeez siddiqi humiliated YLH.

  162. dr jawwad khan

    seriously YLH!

    you can do whatever you want. you can choose your destiny.you are free to follow any ideology no matter how disgusting it feel.
    but you can not and should not loose the dignity and honor of a human being.
    dignity,honor and selfrespect are the most precious gift a man gives to himself.
    be a man rather than an abusing,yelling and whining biped.

  163. D_a_n

    @jawwad…

    If I ‘bag’ for mercy… Will you just leave this forum …???

  164. Wikki

    I read Kashifiat’s blog in which, he has exposed YLH the follower of Ahmediat very well.

  165. dr jawwad khan

    @wikki

    exactly and kashif bhai is right about hijacking of pak tea house by the liberal fascists.
    owner should review his policy of giving the moderatorship to the person like YLH.
    one may be right and one may be wrong, it doesn’t matter but if you have zero tolerance for any argument against your ideology, you loose the moral advantage. the advantage which any one can have and which is above & beyond the debates of the right and the wrong.

  166. Wikki

    @dr jawwad khan

    I totally agree with you. The language, used by YLH is a threat to the PTH so called liberal image.

  167. bonobashi

    @dr jawwad khan
    @Wikki

    It is clear that you are both in total unanimity about the essential rightness and beauty of each other’s views. One exchange should have been enough for that. We are now faced with the prospect of an infinite series of these mutual compliments.

    Is it possible to exchange these love-notes through private e-mail? I am sure that both of you possess private e-mail ids, and have the means to exchange them. That would relieve the rest of us the tedium of sitting through the opening debates, the peroration and the president’s summary of this mutual admiration society.

  168. dr jawwad khan

    @bonobashi!

    laugh out loud lads!
    one after other.

  169. Samina Shah

    Good work by Kashif Sb. The real extremists should be exposed and as for as publicity is concerned you deserve more publicity that you’re Qadiani. We will start a blog requesting the news to not publish articles of mentally retarded like YLH

  170. Wikki

    Wow…..
    We have to exchange our thought through private e-mail and you people have the freedom to exchange your false note hare. hahah

    kashifiat’s new blogpost = more painful nights for YLH 🙂

  171. dr jawwad khan

    LOLZzzz
    that is right wikki but you did not mention the site of pain.
    is he suffering from the pain on that part of the body which he can not be display in public??? :))))

  172. bonobashi

    @dr jawwad khan

    but you can not and should not loose the dignity and honor of a human being.
    dignity,honor and selfrespect are the most precious gift a man gives to himself.
    be a man rather than an abusing,yelling and whining biped.

    Do you recognise that quotation? And the next one?

    that is right wikki but you did not mention the site of pain.
    is he suffering from the pain on that part of the body which he can not be display in public???

    In your own opinion, are they consistent with each other?

  173. dr jawwad khan

    @bonobashi!

    you are a genius….who taught you such things:)

  174. D_a_n

    @ wikki/ jawwad jee

    further to the excellent suggestion from bonobashi… I would like to suggest you two get a room… That way you can whisper your hate filled sweet nothings into each others ears and filatiate each other as equivalents of high fives ..
    Any chance u gents are from either mardan or bannu? It would explain quite a bit…

    Samina.. When they do get a room.. Please feel free to join on the fun.. Spare us please!

  175. Wikki

    OK bonobashi, you are right. Dr. jawwad, we have not to mention any specific part…… 😉 but the thing is that, after Kashifiat’s effort to expose truth about YLH, he may try to expose himself more to manage some new debates using more slang words like urdu zarb-ul-misal کھسیانی بلی کھمبا نوچے

  176. Wikki

    @D_a_n

    I am from Karachi, the city of Quaid-e-Azam and I do respect the people of Mardan and Bannu.

    I don’t think that we need any separate room but it is necessary to get a room for the people like you and YLH to protect the cyber Muslim community from your falls IDEAS and thought.

  177. bonobashi

    Oh dear! This is going to be one of those difficult occasions.

    @dr jawwad khan
    @Wikki

    Dr. Khan, I am not trying to prove that I am superior in any way, only to remind you that if I seek to get you to behave in a certain way, I should demonstrate that I can do that too. So if you on your part don’t want to encourage abusive and personal comments, I believe that you should not yourself indulge in abusive and personal comments yourself. Is that reasonable or unreasonable? Please consider the question.

    Before you answer, please remember this: you have accused others of saying unacceptable things and then shutting down discussion by avoiding the topic and getting personal. Therefore their views should be judged by their behaviour.

    While this is convoluted logic, I presume that you will accept that it applies to you. If your answer bears that in mind, that your views will be judged by the expressions and the language and the manner of your putting them forward for others to consider.

    Wikki, please consider my views and not my person. My request to you and to others from kashifiat.com who have obviously come here on a specific mission is that if you could put up your views and invite a debate, instead of bandying insults about others and their bodily parts, we might all, myself included, end up with some self-respect and dignity. Otherwise we will land up looking like monkeys in a zoo, fighting with each other with cries, motions and gestures, and finally with missiles both organic and inorganic. Please consider that by engaging you in discussion, I am taking the risk of being insulted and jeered at, which process has already started, in case you haven’t noticed, and respond to the respect I have shown you by saying sensible things.

    It is for you to determine how to appear in public, and I have no doubt that you will make the right choice, if you allow yourself to think about it.

  178. yasserlatifhamdani

    AZW,

    With all due respect the language used against these ******s and *******swill STAY. I am sorry if this offends you and it is regrettable but my mind is made up. These bastards deserve the language I have used against them.

    However these ******* call for death to people who disagree with them… they call them slaves to the west and abuse them and accuse them of everything under the sun. They burn minorities alive on false and trumped up charges… I think calling a spade and spade is not wrong. If anything these guys are the real blasphemers against Islam …

    In my opinion there are NOT enough people abusing these ******s. Look at the third rate argument… PTH’s “liberal’ image is at stake. To hell with our liberal image… we certainly don’t need lectures on our liberal image from a bunch of crooks, cranks and mad men. We don’t need an image. We will call spade a spade.
    ….

    As for that little loser who thinks that the third rate ***** Kashif Hafeez Siddiqui can some how cause sleepless nights… on the contrary…what I have written here has ruffled quite a number of dhotis…

    By the way all the comments here abusing me, my family and PakTeaHouse have come from the same IP address. Just FYI.

  179. dr jawwad khan

    ok dear bonobashi!
    this discussion is getting vulgar as @D-A-N started loosing his patience.
    I think our job is done. At least moderator learned to become more listening and less editing the comments.
    I have a respect in my heart for sincere person irrespective of his ideological affiliation but I can’t respect any person who attacks just because some one is not agreed with him.
    I must leave now but before leaving I wanna share a joke with all of you.

    Once a person enjoyed a lavish meal in a well known restaurant and tried to sneak out with out paying the bill. The man was seen It was found that the man(muft khora) doesn’t have the money. The manager beat up the man and asked him to leave. The man rushed towards the exit. Before he could stepped out, the waiter slapped him . The manager said to waiter,”I have beaten him enough why did you slap him”. The waiter said you received the bill (by beating) why should i have left my tip any way?. LOLZzzzz

    kashif hafeez siddiqi received his bill so I thought by posting here I could also receive my long pending dues…. Laugh out loud for god sake (tumhen mirza ghulam ahmed qadiyani ki qasam) take care and have a nice day ((( 🙂 )))

    @YLH!!!
    free advise!!!
    go and take an appointment of a nice psychiatrist before naughty neighborhood kids run after you chanting “pagal hay…pagal hay…pagal hay…”

  180. Wikki

    Hey bonobashi where are you. Is there any comments of yours for @yasserlatifhamdani…

    by the way it is very clear that who is third rate chu*** who use slang words for their opponents.

  181. Ummi

    EDITED for ABUSE AND PERSONAL ATTACK ON PEOPLE’S FAMILIES.

  182. bonobashi

    @Wikki

    I am right here.

    I do not think violence either in action or in speech is good for discussion. This is regardless of who the source is.

    However, I must confess to you freely that I have some constraints in this matter. If we are to discuss matters directly, I shall retain full responsibility for whatever I say, and for the way that I react to you, whether or not you treat me with courtesy. Since I am a guest on this forum, it is open to me to make a suggestion to other guests, as I did to you and Dr. Jawwad Khan, just as it is open to you to reject that suggestion. It would be ill-mannered to rebuke my host; I am sure you will agree that it violates the norms of hospitality, and violates my status as a guest.

    Please bear witness that I have not addressed anything to you that I would be embarrassed to show my young daughter. Whatever differences we have, I can hold my own in argument without discourtesy to a fellow-guest.

    In a sense, this is a stretched argument. On a Pakistani forum, every lady and gentleman from Pakistan is in a sense my host, and I can only gently propose a discussion. In that sense, both you and Dr. Jawwad are my hosts, and I will not be guilty of lack of respect for either of you.

    Indians are different; if you look up a few posts earlier, you will find that I have no hesitation in rebuking any Indian whose behaviour seems less than courteous or befitting our nation.

    Our culture, yours and ours, is the same on these matters relating to guest and host. I hope you will agree with my respectful stand.

  183. Ummi

    Qadyani prophet also used to whine like you that he was on the right side. The world saw how Allah made him to suffer and he died in such “smelly” way that he became the sign of Ibrat for the rest of the world. So continue entertaining us. The Jinnah’s specialist has really got exposed. Raza must be turning on his bed after reading all of your comments.

    This post should be published on all forums to expose liberal extremists and their silly and girly tactics.

  184. AZW

    Ummi, Dr. Jawwad, Wikki:

    While we are not averse to telling Yasser that he needs to be even handed in moderating as well as participating in discussions on this forum, it is quite clear that all of you have shown yourself to be little pygmies when it comes to common decency. I have seen many of you spout expletives on this forum before, and their deletions was well warranted on a better forum like PTH.

    We have also seen how Mr. Kashif Siddiqui has conquered lowest of the lows when he tries to engage Yasser in debates previously on PTH. Thanks for pointing out the “latest” collection of ramblings by Mr. Siddiqui. I was shocked to see him attacking Yasser as well as his wife in his so called “mazameen”. I can understand if Yasser can lose his temper. Persoanl attacks are upsetting to all of us, and your levels of indecency is frankly at times untolerable.

    None of you have shown yourself to be big enough to be engaged in serious conversations. I have seen how the responses to Yasser’s latest article on Moudoudi has been received by all of you so far. The responses have started with curses, taunts and derogatory comments; devoid of any solid argument, high on personal attacks.

    I think deep down you probably realize that Yasser has contributed immensely to PTH. Most of his arguments are backed by historical facts, actual quotes, and reputable books. I smiled when I saw Mr. Siddiqui complaining that Yasser does not call Jinnah by Quaid-e-Azam (implying that Yasser does not respect Jinnah). I cannot recall any other person who has given Jinnah more respect than Yasser; by pointing out how history has proven right, and by showing how unfairly Jinnah has been targeted by both Hindu as well as Muslim religious leaders. Jinnah worked under extremely difficult circumstances, where the Hindu right wings, as well as your spiritual guide Moudoudi never missed an opportunity to curse him. That he brought about Pakistan on the base of Muslim natioanalism by uniting a diverse body of Indian Muslims was a remarkable achievement. Muslim nationalistic goal is distinct from Islamic State mission espoused by the JI and Majlis-e-Ahrar. Too bad that the religious right in Pakistan has hijacked the idea of Pakistan immediately after 1947, tried their best to convert it to a theocratic model, and in the process wreaked havoc on Pakistan for the past 62 years.

    You can jump around and giggle that you have made Yasser uncomfortable, and “scored” some “points”. Rest be assured that you are recognized well for the uncouth low levels that you have efficiently shown yourselves to be.

    Regards,

    Adnann

  185. D_a_n

    @Ummi…

    since Yasser has already told us that he is receiving personal attacks from the same IP…
    im now not even sure if you..this wikki chap and Dr Jawwad are the same person or not….

    Now…regarding what you said…by taking this to the level of mentioning the ladies of my family and also recommending that my dear mother end her life you have crossed certain lines……..and those lines are well beyong personal attacks…which I personally could do without…but coming from Mullah’s like you…I wear as a badge of honour…
    oh how I used to take pleasure in buggering the likes of you at the academy …happy happy days…

    but what you said…just goes to show how much all this has challenged you and bothered you..that you have worded posts to attack my dear mother..
    it is there for all to see now….

    Now…the good thing about all your nonsense is that it has made Yasser create the entire article of the lies…and intellectual prostitution of Maudoodi and any who hold him in any regard….
    for far too long you have had us by the short and curlies and by God it is going to fucking end….
    and it will not end well for you…it may not happen in my lifetime..probably wont…but we will be rid off you in the decades to come..
    there is far too much outrcy against you…the people willing to challenge you and call you out for the scum that you are is growing..the very weight of history is against you and your fitna worshipping ideology which you try to pimp as Islam…
    by the Grace of Allah I am a practicing Muslim…I have served my country with honour..for as long as I live, it will be my personal Jihaad to expose you….humiliate you and when necessary, shout you down and drown out your message in whichever humble means available to myself…I thank Yasser and Raza Rumi here for making this possible..
    one thing here…I have a couple of Ahmedi coursemates……a christian one and many Muslims…
    and I take personal pleasure in announcing to you that each one of them is …as we speak…is busy either dropping….arming or flying bombs to their Mullah Targets….and the PAF is taking pride that those two Ahmedi Pilots are there to guide ordinance onto the heads of your deobandi friends..
    We are physically after your types now…and mark my words…you people over played your hand in Swat….and I pray that you do so again, and dont be surprised that after you have shed enough blood and clapped for those who do it….you might end up being lynched where you stand..
    it may start out small…one here…two there…but it will happen..and word will spread that you bleed and are can be ripped apart…and Islam is yet alive in well within our hearts…
    and then the flood gates will open and you will be hunted down just the Ahmedi’s you enjoy seeing treated …
    as Bonobashi says…untermensch..that word enough should be enough to fill you will shame beyong measure…but shame is something you have amputated from your soul long ago…

    now go…fuck off…and prepare for the fight of your miserable lives…live by yourselves in your rat infested….incestous forums where bigots gather to sod each other and complete as to who can be more hateful…and in the mornings go to your misreable jobs where you cannot open your mouths truthfully for the stench it will create…and that is the real test….please try and loudly proclaim these very thoughts amongst your colleagues..but you know you cant do that…for it will sicken and repulse the sane amongst them…the truth is that your Takfeeri sickness…your hatred have robbed you of honour…
    thankfully I have no such issues…
    by defending Ahmedi citizens of Pakistans right to live their lives with diginity and honour is a goal physically worth fighting for…
    looking at people like you…I envy the Jawan in the trench facing the Mullah..for he gets to physically stop people like you and for good!..
    wallow you swine…wallow in your hate…and slather yourselves in your own dishonour…
    I am done with you for now….

  186. YLH

    D-A-N

    Thrilled to hear of this. PAF zindabad 🙂

    Keep up the good work. So envious.

    Btw I just want to give shout out to Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi Shaheed who recently passed away defending his country. He must have been a mutual friend of ours.

    Pakistan Zindabad.

  187. D_a_n

    @ YLH…

    yar he was my coursemate and room mate at the academy for the entire first year…
    our first words together to each other while still inside the blankets would be ‘Cigrut nikaal’….along with ‘mashter Medhi’
    followed by Saud slouching along looking for a soap dish for he never had his own…

    I spent a bit of time stationed with him after graduation as well…but very shortly…

    May Allah rest his sould in peace…..

  188. D_a_n

    @YLH…

    no need to be envious…im ex PAF…
    however…being a fourth generation man in Uniform….I have an inherent urge to be part of the fight that matters….
    and for now..this..the ideological fight is the one that will decide all…and Pakistan is lucky to have you in the trenches…
    I’d follow you into battle…

  189. karun

    bonobashi

    There has long been a suspicion in Bengal about the roles of better-known Indian leaders,

    It is a matter of some surprise how sweeping generalisations like this can be made with a straight face.
    *************************************************

    in the heat of the moment you forgot that you quoted the above not i. do i now need to read out your post to yourself? see how biased you are before even i reveal my cards

  190. karun

    Bono your remarks are extremely off the cuff, personal and invective.

    All the queries against gandhi have been refuted quote by quote at this very forum from his complete works. Please refer back to the earlier posts.

    you are very haughty. what do you think that couple of you are the vanguards of history and rest all are fools. Or beacuse you believe in particular historians like ayesha jalal and dominique lapiere, your version is truer.

    far from it…..

    oh may be you are among the ilk who believe that a strong pakistan makes for a stronger subcontinent. you are here lo lend support to your buddy YLH in his crusades against the fundamentalist.(by the way all those who believe against this are fundamentalist and not secular)

    well the fact that YLH and his ilk will never win the war till the hypothesis ad nauseum rests on the fundamentalist called jinnah. i am all for secularism, but the moment you talk of secularism and jinnah in the same tone you commit nothing but sacrilege and blasphemy.

    I for a change believe that like many others a weak, progressively weaker pakistan is in the greater interests of India. I actually hope that both countries go to war sooner.

    sometimes violence is the best path to non violence. just like you have to kill the suicide bombers before they get you. civility in such matters do not matter. Pakistan(a.k.a its military) is incorrigible.

    Yes of course this is a forum for pakistan loving pakistanis and pakistan loving indians, so of course such comments like breaking pakistan into four, absorbing punjab and sindh, does not make sense at least not here.

    I wish you all the best in your sweet romances. Reality unfortunately is not nice and fair just like life and murphy’s law. So keep on your good work. I will leave this forum sooner or later for more important things.

    It is unfortunate that my comments will be construed as hate mongering, but it is not so, my responses are cold and unemotional, of course you need far higher degree of liberalism(perhaps gandhianess) to hold civic dialouge with people who predict that your country may become a failed state and disintegrate, or how its disintegration is better for the world in general.

    perhaps your full stops are only to the narrow confines of nationalism. You are yet to mature to Tagore’s vision.

    Till then and till the next war.

    Love and Peace

  191. D_a_n

    @Karun…

    ‘I will leave this forum sooner or later for more important things.’…

    apparently…sooner never comes soon enough when you need it…

  192. karun

    to put the record straight:

    I am against the abuse and invective against the ahmedis here, but for gods sake do it for the true spirit of secularism which incidentally do not need apostles like fundamentalist jinnah nor they should need to rely on his duplicious word.

    the other significant thing:
    bono you write well, please devote your mastery of english language and your innate talent towards writing delightful books, if you have not already written one or two.

    i will still maintain Gorky is the most gentlemanly in his conduct whether he has a diamond or two in his front teeth or not.

  193. karun

    Dan: i have nothing against you

  194. D_a_n

    @Karun…

    on the contrary…when you spew forth:

    ‘I for a change believe that like many others a weak, progressively weaker pakistan is in the greater interests of India. I actually hope that both countries go to war sooner.’ …

    you do declare that you have much against me..now one thing I fail to grasp is that you and your type know full well that Chowk is where you belong and where such innanities and venting disguised as ‘reality/facts’ are welcome…

    so why not spare us simpletons such masterful scholarship and regale a more receptive audience??

  195. karun

    now one thing I fail to grasp is that you and your type know full well that Chowk is where you belong and where such innanities and venting disguised as ‘reality/facts’ are welcome…
    ##################################

    i have never been to chowk…and i dont know what it is….take my word for it.

    your type…..so you being in PAF do not want war, love my country India, and rejoiced when India drove back pakistan backed insurgents and regular infantry men back from kargil…

    my type…unfortunatel are not very gullible…not since kargil at least…

    by the way, what are your views (army’s view) of your once commander in chief musharraf? i have heard that army controls most of the economy in pakistan and are very priviledged in general. or do you believe in self berating(pak army) time to time to uphold the higher ideals of egailty liberty and fraternity

  196. karun

    just by fighting against mullahs do not make you enlightened, you(read army) has strangled democracy in pakistan step by step, slowly and surely. how proud do you feel about that

  197. D_a_n

    @ Karin

    you have heard wrong is all I’m going to get into …

    I could care two hoots for what you may or may not think..it must be bliss just being part of the herd and not having to think for ones self..
    One thing I’ve always found funny is how eager the civvies are to go war.
    If you wish war upon your country, you are the kind of patriot a country can do without…
    I do not want to engage with you any further as you have already come here with war on your mind and there is no debate possible..
    However I will say this; that jone-sing for nuclear war is a wish best left unfulfilled…

    Arm chair Guderians are so typical…

  198. bonobashi

    @karun

    This is what I said, originally, in full:

    There has long been a suspicion in Bengal about the roles of better-known Indian leaders, stemming from the blunt refusal of Gandhi during the Tripura Congress to accept the democratic election result putting in Subhash Bose as the Congress President.

    This is what you quoted:

    There has long been a suspicion in Bengal about the roles of better-known Indian leaders

    And this is how I protested at the distortion:

    It is a matter of some surprise how sweeping generalisations like this can be made with a straight face. What, precisely, is the basis of your remark? Could you point me in the direction of any analysis and finding to this effect? How long is long? Since the ferocity of Shashank of Gaur around the 9th century? Since the propagation of the Puranas in proto-historic times, which proclaimed that caste boundaries stopped at Gaya? Was it later, during 1905, during the First Partition of Bengal? Was it during Gandhi’s manipulation of the Tripura Congress? Was it when Nehru appointed Mehr Chand Khanna Minister for Relief and Rehabilitation and over 90% of funds were used to ameliorate the wounds, shock and horror of refugees from the Punjab, Sindh and other parts of what was later West Pakistan?

    (emphasis added by ‘bonobashi’ in this post)

    Does the phrase “quoting out of context” ring any bells? And does the refutation I offered fail in its effect because I omitted to underline it, rather than pointing out by example that you had violated the context in which I made it earlier?

  199. karun

    it must be bliss just being part of the herd and not having to think for ones self..

    exactly the opposite, the current herding trend in intelligensia is indo pak bhai bhai, just like hindi chini bhai bhai which led to very disastrous consequences for india.

    i am among the minority instead who believe (two eyes for one, an entire jaw for the tooth)
    #################################
    However I will say this; that jone-sing for nuclear war is a wish best left unfulfilled…

    be assured there will be no nuclear war, it just plain bullshit, all there will be is conventional war, and in case the condition of nuclear war arises uncle sam will singe both sides, most likely your country more than mine. so degeneration into a nuclear warfare is a remote remote possibilty. even if it happens…remember japan is japan despite hiroshima and nagasaki

  200. karun

    @bono

    hmmm…ok

  201. D_a_n

    @ Karin

    didn’t know they let you stay up
    this late in Gujarat 🙂

    ps: you have as much knowledge of nuclear thresholds as I do of neuro surgery which is a separate topic in itself since you are not even a good arm chair warrior,id rather waste time on this with someone who knows what he’d talking about … Are you seriously comparing what we have here with 1962????? In that case, you can have your eyes, contact lenses and the jaw bone ( of an ass) …

  202. kabir

    Karun,

    I am really disturbed to hear you advocating that India and Pakistan go to war again especially on the weekend that both countries celebrate gaining their independence. And I say this as someone who has been scolded by my fellow Pakistanis for loving India too much, wanting to be Indian, etc.

    War is not good for anyone and a peaceful and stable Pakistan is absolutely in India’s interest. Even in a conventional war, the amount of resources that would be wasted fighting the “enemy” could surely be better utilized somewhere else. I believe our leaders (hopefully) are smart enough to resolve all our issues peacefully, including Kashmir. Pakistan needs to stop sponsering cross-border terrorism, that is definately a given, but that said there’s no reason to clamor for war.

    Pakistan Zindabad and Jai Hind. I really don’t understand why these too sentiments have to be mutually exclusive.

  203. Gorki

    Karun:

    As a matter of routine I stop commenting when either the person opposing my POV is already being debated by several others OR if the conversation has already deteriorated to a point beyond which a meaningful conversation can not be held. (For example in the second set of conversation here with Dr. Jawed etc.)

    However in this one instance I want to make an exception (this conversation too appears to be deteriorating fast) because of two reasons; first you mentioned that you wanted to have a decent conversation with people holding oposing views and second you protested Majumdar’s derogatory reference to Gandhi yet your later posts sound very un-Gandhian.

    Thus I want to know what you really believe in; deep down (other than detesting Pakistan that is.)

    For on one hand you protest that Gandhiji, is being misrepresented here on PTH and yet on the other you nonchalantly make a public call for a war and destruction of another nation; don’t you see a glaring contradiction here?

    Today being the eve of Independence for our two countries, I reproduce a part of the speech delivered by another great Indian exactly 63 years ago in which he referred to Gandhiji as follows:

    “..The ambition of the greatest man of our generation has been to wipe every tear from every eye. That may be beyond us, but as long as there are tears and suffering, so long our work will not be over.

    And so we have to labour and to work, and work hard, to give reality to our dreams. Those dreams are for India, but they are also for the world, for all the nations and peoples are too closely knit together today for any one of them to imagine that it can live apart Peace has been said to be indivisible; so is freedom, so is prosperity now, and so also is disaster in this One World that can no longer be split into isolated fragments.”

    My question to you is this; how do you resolve the contradiction between your words and those reproduced above, inside your own mind?

    Regards.
    .

  204. Ummi

    @D_a_n: I would prefer to ignore you. A person who passes sexist and pathetic remarks for women does not deserve to be answered. You probably belongs to some pathetic feudal family where women re actually bought to come into relationship rather opting some legtimate procedure. Therefore keep calling names. It’s just showing your family background. So go and play outside.

    @AZW: You might need a pair of specs. Where did I or any other “anti-YLH” person said words like bastards, ch** or Fu* passed comments about other women? As far as your whining about Yasser’s wife so she herself is a writer. Do you expect a “ladies first” attitude for an author who writes in public? Ayesha Sarwari is a public author hence she will be criticized so please don;t beg mercy for a woman who openly abuse others ideology as well.

    Whether kashifat wrote garbage or some piece of wisdom, the fact is that his articles has hit right on the target..maybe “trust is bitter” and Yasser and Co are not being able to swallow so much bitterness?

    @others: quit trolling for “personal attack” this “aurat pana” is just going against you..

    Anyway thanks for this entertainment. I bet Raza would be turning into his… bed.

  205. Ummi

    Yasser et all

    If Kashifiat just wrote crap and it’s all lie then why did you bother to answer him at first place? The way you are getting boiled and suffering from phobia it just proves that “daal mey kuch kaala hay”

    I would further investigate about naseeb networks and the agenda behind it. Such issues should be covered in media as well.I would try to use my resources to dig deep further and expose it.

    Thanks

  206. bonobashi (anxious and worried)

    @karun


    @bono

    hmmm…ok

    What does this mean? Is my explanation accepted? Am I taken back into the community of the right-thinking again? Do I have to do a prayaschit of some kind or is it unconditional return?

    Kindly elucidate.

    Quick, I can’t bear the tension….

    PS: My nickname is ‘bonobashi’, not ‘bono’. As you are free and familiar with the goings-on of that wet and watery race, you will have known that the abbreviation has a somewhat diminishing connotation when you abbreviated it. Quite in line with the dictum that a gentleman does not ever offer an unintentional insult.

    Please consider using my nickname in full, or of assigning me, as your fancy takes you, an alternative name, as other people twice as old as I and around an order of magnitude more learned, people in your class, more or less, have taken to doing on occasion.

  207. YLH

    Karun,

    There are tw kinds of people in either country. Those who want war those who don’t. Make your decision. Do you really want to kill me ?

  208. YLH

    Ummi mian, Kashif Siddiqui writes copious amounts of crap. I don’t respond. I wrote this article because Pakistaniat- a website I care about- published a crappy plagiarized biography of a man who opposed Jinnah’s vision for Pakistan as a tolerant democratic country.

    You are giving too much credit to Kashif here.

    Btw his blogpost needs major copyediting and grammatical correction. I volunteer. I can’t have third rate enemies. They should atleast be able to write legibly.

  209. YLH

    PS to Karun : Now even Jaswant singh has written a book proving that Jinnah was completely secular.

    The more you repeat your lies Karun. The more you prove yourself oto be a crook like Kashifiat who you seem to agree withm

    Pakistan will be a secular state because of Jinnah.it is clear that you don’t understand history or Pakistan very well.

  210. YLH

    Btw those in India who abuse Jinnah forget the very important dsitinction. The tiger of Pakistan was already out. Of the cage long before Jinnah chose to ride it. But when he rode it he tried to ride it back to the Indian jungle. He gave everyone the oppportunity to reconcile the idea of Pakistan with the idea of united India. And when that failed. He tried to put the mane of secularism.

    The only justification for secularism in Pakistan is Jinnah.

    This is what people like Karun don’t understnand. And they strengthen the hand of the habds of the same Mullahs who had caused irreparable danage to communal relations.

    How can Jinnah the best ambassador of hindu muslim unity and secularist par excellence be abused like this …. I wonder.

    Perhaps one should consider Gandhi’s role in Khilafat movement before abusing Jinnah.

  211. D_a_n

    @Ummi…

    since you have unmasked me so well by the following:

    ‘You probably belongs to some pathetic feudal family where women re actually bought to come into relationship rather opting some legtimate procedure.’

    ….how much for your women babu?

  212. YLH

    Dan,

    Wow. Saud was your coursemate. He was entry-mate at PAF College Sargodha.

    We lived in the same Dorm …three beds apart… Dorm III Tempest House.

  213. YLH

    My entry-mate. 26th entry.

  214. Gorki

    YLH:
    1. Now even Jaswant singh has written a book proving that Jinnah was completely secular.

    2. There are two kinds of people in either country. Those who want war those who don’t. Make your decision.
    ………………………………..
    I want to comment about the two statements you made to Karun.

    About the first, I am glad you took notice of, and mentioned Jaswant Singh’s book.
    I have not read it, (only the synopsis) but it would be fascinating to read this. It is very interesting to note that other people, coming from entirely different ideologic back ground seem to share some of our own views (at least partially) expressed here at PTH in the last few months.
    Apparently the book partly echoes two of my own personal belief that
    1. Nehru and MAJ were more alike in their secular impulses than any of the others and that
    2. MAJ, tragically got pushed into a corner when it did not have to happen that way.

    I do await your own comments on the book (and comments from others who have debated this topic earlier) some times in the future.

    Regarding the second statement; you again hit the nail on the head.
    It reminds me of a passage from the book I read 30 years ago called ‘All quiet on the western front’ (by Erich Maria Remarque) in which a German soldier in WWI wonders something like this: why the war had to go on day after day when a better solution could have been to put all the 30-40 of the warmongerers from each side in a ring to fight it out and decide the outcome.
    Sadly I think the human race is beyond learning any worthwhile lessons in this regard; ever.

    Regards.

  215. yasserlatifhamdani

    Gorki sb,

    Jinnah’s statements and speeches as Indian Nationalist before his irreparable break with the Congress in 1929 are identical -word to word- to those of Jawaharlal Nehru. Indeed… what is amazing is that both were part of the Fabian Society and both were ideologically inclined towards the Labour Party (though Labour Party refused to give Jinnah a ticket because he was too well dressed and a bit of a “toff” for labour candidacy). Ofcourse Jinnah’s greatest supporters in British politics from 1940 to 1945 or so were from the Tories and Churchillians, whereas Nehru retained his friendships with the British Left. K K Aziz has done a magnificent study of British left and its relations with the Muslims of the subcontinent which puts things in their proper perspective. Jinnah was the victorian/edwardian petty bourgeoisie version of the Georgian aristocratic left leaning Jawaharlal Nehru. And Jinnah was a minority… it turned out.

    And it must be said that Jinnah’s 11th August speech and his vision for minorities is the same as Jawaharlal Nehru. I think in so far as personal relations are concerned … I think they were soured at a Students Conference in 1937 to which both Jinnah and Nehru were invited and in which Jinnah paid glowing tributes to Jawaharlal Nehru (yes the kind of tributes that you and Bonobashi sahib unnecessarily flower me with :)) and then expressed hope that with Nehru in charge, India would soon come to a fair and just communal settlement. Nehru taking the tributes which Jinnah wholeheartedly meant in his stride, then proceeded to abuse those who were raising the “communal nonsense”.
    I can see how Nehru must have kicked himself later. (I often kick myself for being too impetuous as well with magnanimous and wiser elders)

    But to Nehru’s credit, when he visited Pakistan in the 1950s, he made it a point to have lunch at Fatima Jinnah’s house along with Indira Gandhi. I think this is a very important thing that is often forgotten about Jinnah-Nehru relations.

    In our zeal to prove each other wrong, we Pakistanis and Indians who want Pakistan and India to succeed, we often forget that in the great battle 0f civilization and uncivilization, Jinnah and Nehru are on the same side.

  216. karun

    Now even Jaswant singh has written a book proving that Jinnah was completely secular.

    what do you want him to do. sing peaens to congress and nehru. for gods sake he is from BJP/RSS with akhand Bharat dream. How much do you agree on that?

  217. YLH

    But he did my friend about Nehru.

    Also read H M Seervai for god’s sake. And leave this god forsaken mythology you hold so dear.

  218. YLH

    What people like Karun don’t understand that nation states have interests and e represent those interests.

    And yes we disagree on history. And yes there is competition.

    But this war is beyond. That competition. This is about majoritarian fascist groups which threaten us in our own respective spheres and embroil nation states in conflicts beyond the national interest.

  219. Hayyer 48

    @Karun
    It seems that you visit this site only to throw stones from behind your barricade of anonymity. As an enthusiastic patriot of the youthful variety I suggest that you have much to gain by reading more, and by reflecting more.
    This is not a hate site. So why do you visit here if you hate so relentlessly.
    You want a conventional war? You would like thousands and thousands of young men dead and many more with amputated limbs, ruptured innards, disfigured burnt bodies and hopeless futures so that you can experience an adrenalin rush?
    I am increasingly aware of the acuity of Nirad Chowdhury’s comment on the fascist mind set among a section of Indians which you seem to embody. These unrelenting images of marching men that fill our living room screens as the embodiment of nationhood serve unfortunately to provoke the innate militarism of some of our youth, enabling them to enjoy the thrill of war without risk to life limb or property. Such wet dreams are usually seen in inverse frequency to the distance from the fighting front.
    Real soldiers don’t want war. They fight only if they have to, as opposed to warriors like yourself who like the idea of war as long as they don’t have to do the killing or dying.
    If you think that blogging on Indo Pak matters is an artillery duel, an arms length combat, as in an electronic game, there are plenty of sites on the blogosphere catering to your martial instincts; perhaps even the one run by Kashif Siddiqui. It would be interesting to see how well you do and how long you last among the real nasties.

  220. yasserlatifhamdani

    Hayyer,

    Thank you. And I understand now that I owe you a public apology since my excesses here were public and therefore I apologize.

    Real soldiers don’t want war. They fight only if they have to, as opposed to warriors like yourself who like the idea of war as long as they don’t have to do the killing or dying.
    If you think that blogging on Indo Pak matters is an artillery duel, an arms length combat, as in an electronic game, there are plenty of sites on the blogosphere catering to your martial instincts

    May you tribe live long and prosper. Real patriots don’t want to embroil their lands in unnecessary and bloody conflicts for no reason. Napoleons, Hitlers and Mussolinis were never patriots.

    People like you are… may there be more like you.

  221. karun

    I know the pandora’s box is open now.

    I had been warned and i had given the disclaimer that i am not a hate monger and you need to come out of your conventional shells to discuss something which is para normal under the present circumstances.

    take for example(cliche’) a starting point:

    what if there is an attack on the Indian state of an magnitude equal to mumbai in the recent future, aided or unaided by state machinery, carried by fringe elements who may claim to have nothing with the state?

    How should India respond?

    I pose this question to the Indian and the pak coterie(assumption: India does not have non state actors and the state does not sponsor terrorism across border and if at all, then of a magnitude much smaller than pakistan)

  222. yasserlatifhamdani

    I just know what Pakistan should do unequivocally … and that is bring to justice all perpetrators of Mumbai.

    The rest is upto India. If you want war, we shall give you a befitting response. But let’s not get to that.

  223. Hayyer 48

    YLH
    Thank you for the kind words. I have never doubted your commitment to the liberal principles that you propagate and I am your well wisher in the long and arduous battle that you are fighting.

  224. bonobashi

    @YLH

    In the latest update to the storm in a teacup that Jaswant Singh’s book has caused (due for official release today, August 17, btw), there is a passing mention of the demonisation of Jinnah that took place, and also a regretful acknowledgement of the sources of this anger.

    It was this ‘urban legend’ kind of attitude towards Jinnah that has aroused the suspicions of many Indians and driven them to look a little deeper. Until recent publications, unfortunately, even this was insufficient, and the suspicions mentioned stayed at the level of, well, suspicions. It is only with Ayesha Jalal’s copious recent publications that there has been some academic justification, some foundation on which to base further enquiry. Could I just mention in passing that in trying to go through her book on Jihad, a present from a loved one, I found that in terms of style and presentation, she is almost unreadable.

    If you can’t recognise a hint as broad as this……

  225. Majumdar

    Bono da,

    Inspite of all the demonisation that MAJ (pbuh) has been subjected to in India, still among the well-versed there was a knowledge that the man was one of the most honest incorruptible person of that era and a personally very secular person. And that Nehru’s ambitions were partly responsible for pushing him out.

    Regards

  226. bonobashi

    @Gorki
    August 16, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Regarding your evocation of ‘All Quiet on the Western Front’, when tickets are being sold for Mustafa Shaban vs. Karun, just let me know; I know a friend who will buy me the best tickets in the house.

    Live ammunition, I trust; are Dum Dum bullets allowed in private matters like this one?

  227. bonobashi

    @Majumdar

    Yes, you are perfectly correct, but in a pedantic way, may I take your logic a little further, with examples from these posts?

    …still among the well-versed there was a knowledge that the man was one of the most honest incorruptible person of that era and a personally very secular person. And that Nehru’s ambitions were partly responsible for pushing him out…

    It seems to me that there are four sections of informed and knowledgeable opinion that we can distinguish: 1. Pro-Jinnah and pro-Nehru: a minuscule minority but usually composed of individuals who are ethical and well-intentioned, for instance, Gorki; 2. Pro-Jinnah and anti-Nehru: a larger segment, constituted of sceptical observers of the political developments of the past sixty years in India (less so of the developments in Pakistan), for instance, you and I, you at an elevated level, a ‘pioneer’ level, as has been justly acknowledged by all sections here; 3. anti-Jinnah and pro-Nehru, still representative of opinion in India, represented here by Karun; 4. anti-Jinnah and anti-Nehru, a theoretical position, but one which a communist or a marxist might well take, considering the class character of the two protagonists, and the characterisation of the struggle culminating in independence as the end of the political struggle and the beginning of the economic struggle for freedom, with no visible adherents here.

    I think that the debate on Jinnah is still at its early stages in Indian intellectual circles, and that the debate on Nehru is well-advanced, and has passed its peak of hostility to Nehru. There appears to be a reversal of opinion, to some extent marked by Ramachandra Guha and (in political circles) some of the young Congressmen who are generally seen as Rahul Gandhi’s future great captains.

    As this debate on Jinnah, and on the relative merits and de-merits of the ideology of both of them warms up, it will be interesting to see who takes what position.

    Needless to add, I agree with you on your core analysis.

  228. karun

    In light of Jaswant Singh’s book it becomes incumbent upon me to study ‘H.M .Seervai’ and Ayesha Jalal and to add a little bit of spice i will have to read some dissenters from the above view as well.

    I will leave jinnahs secular credentials for the time being and raise some issues which i have difficulty comprehending:

    1) Secularism need not be an Indian construct or need follow an Indian Model. however the basic definition of ‘no state involvement’ is a must and this in itself guarantees no need for a majority vs minority bias.

    I do agree that the idea of pakistan was there before jinnah, but i do not see any comuplsion from jinnah to take it to its logical end? perhaps it would have failed if jinnah would not have given his support perhaps it would have fizzled out like khalistan?

    why? why even as a bargaining ploy? why even the idea of pakistan within India? why Identity politics?

    Did congress really look as if it will allocate dispropornate power and resources to hindus and discriminate against muslims. There is nothing to show in the character of either nehru, patel or host of other congress leaders that they were communal

    Was jinnah’s fear irrational?

    2) why are the sikhs fiercely Indian. recently i went to leh and ladakh and to my surpise found the majority buddhist pouplation fiercely patriotic. Why did sikh demand for a separate state not culminate as a sucess? why did not divisive identity politics work in this case? and more importantly why is it not justified. If we accept pakistan perhaps we should accept Khalistan?

    3) why did not Jinnah lend a voice to muslim aspirations within India. afterall his friend Dr. Ambedkar chose to strive from within.

    He could have become the voice of indian muslims and perhaps its prime minister at some point of time.

    Look at what we have achieved. If at all the partition would have led to everlasting peace for the next 60 years. No it left us wounded and it still bleeds us from time to time(through non state actors). would bangladesh have eventually separated from pakistan whether earlier or eventually just like pakistan did from India?

    shall we become countries based on highest common factor rather than least common denominator. should ‘padua’,venice,florence, pisa start fighting against each other as they had fought in the past?

  229. karun

    one more question, if pakistani punjab and bengal could not stay together (as if it really was never posible) why shouldn’t indian punjab and bengal go different ways?

    this is a funny question, bcos its addressed to two gentlemen who are punjabi and two gentlemen who are Bengali (from India of course)

  230. karun

    “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed… this has nothing to do with the business of the state.”

    Were nehru and congress in India saying differently? why then to reinvent the wheel? i am miserably clueless.

  231. Gorki

    Dear Karun:

    You have asked some rther incisive questions and I will try to do my best to answer them honestly; however I have a little business of a professional lecture to prepare for and may not be able to answer right away.

    I do however want to leave you with some counter questions in the meantime.
    A few weeks ago I responded to your own (I think) rather belligrent post by stating why I thought a weakened Pakistan was against Indian interests.

    You did not respond directly yet still continue to post similar inflammatory posts.

    So where do you stand?

    Why is not a strong neighbor, focused on its own people, its own economic growth (or even westward looking) not desirable?

    What if war (even non nuclear) with Pakistan does not solve any problems but instead pulls India too into an abyss?

    And what is your own view of Islam and the Muslims in the subcontinent and its history? Is it same as Nehru’s?

    (The last is a rather delicate question and if you choose to not comment on it, you may write no comments; so no pressure there)

    Regards.

  232. Bloody Civilian

    @karun

    1) It was not about secularism. It was about democracy – democratic principle. There was the big issue of not mixing religion with politics. That continues to be an issue despite a secular constitution. But ’37 onwards, esp, it was about democratic principle. Everything else was secondary – a consequent perception (not helped by the mixing of religion and politics since 1920).
    90 million are not a minority. just like they are not homogenous. Or static. They are not after the League of Nations’ guarantees for minorities. Nor secular guarantees. They need democratic guarantees that would allow them to shape the nation, esp in its early years; Perhaps only in the more critical early years.
    It’s not about not being discriminated against in the secular sense. Rather, it’s being able to control one’s destiny with a degree of independence. i.e in a federation rather than a unitary polity. No identity politics on whose terms? Do I give/take up my identity voluntarily or under duress? There is no need for identity politics if you are the safe majority. You can decide to be as magnanimous, equitable and just as you like using your absolute majority. But 90 million people want a degree of independence. Sort out their own many, many problems as best they know how. Confront their own demons. Lay them to rest. And gel in to a nation they have helped shape and vice versa i.e a two-way, indeed, multi-way gelling in taking place.

    2) The muslim equivalent of the religious bhindranwale would have been the JUH, ahrar, JI etc. not the AIML. Certainly not the fiercely indian, congress man jinnah.
    I’m as fiercely patriotic as you are. But we happen to disagree as to what’s best for the country – the whole of it. That’s all.

    3) Albeit a bit late, but ambedkar too came to realise that federalism and not reservation was the way forward. Jinnah had done away with separate electorates as far back as 1934 in the jinnah-rajendra prasad talks. You can read noorani to find out what jinnah thought of separate electorates.
    any ass could have become the PM had the congress’ absolute majority wished so.

    reinvent the wheel … yes, but a mutually balancing, mirror image…. a reflection; not a mere facsimile.

  233. D_a_n

    @ BC

    reinvent the wheel … yes, but a mutually balancing, mirror image…. a reflection; not a mere facsimile’

    absolute gem my friend.. Absolute gem!

  234. bonobashi

    @BC

    reinvent the wheel … yes, but a mutually balancing, mirror image…. a reflection; not a mere facsimile.

    I agree with D_a_n; brilliant line. Wish I’d said it. Wish I’d written the whole post, in fact.

  235. Bloody Civilian

    D_a_n, Bonobashi

    thanks. glad you liked the line. 🙂

  236. Silent Observer

    Hmmm

    1. First, Mr. Hamdani starts the blog to hit Mr. Kashifiat or Kashif Hafeez…… on a topic which was quite irrelevant

    2.Mr. Hamdani infests the blog with Ahmedi propaganda

    2. Kashifiat replies

    3.Mr. Hamdani gets out of control and starts abusing

    4.Supporters from both sides come in

    5.As soon as the real face of Mr. Hamdani starts exposing, some people apparently from india come in and start giving comments, after which a wave of patriotism covers the blog

    6.After some comments, the blog is coming towards Ahmedi propaganda again

    This place, really does stink, like somebody died in the toilet…….

    Na-Pak-tea-house ko chor jana hi behtar hay, yahan Ahmedi patti ki ch…a..yay k ilawa kuch nahin

  237. YLH

    1. Mr.Hamdani did not set up the blog to hit Kashif. Mr Hamdani set up the article to criticize Adil Najam’s policy. Kashif Siddiqui has been writing against me for 5 years. I could care less what barking dogs say.

    2. No. Dr.jawwad, hamara, talkhaba abd kashif behaved like animals.

    3. Mr. Hamdani resorted to using the language that these dogs understand.

    4. Mr. Hamdani did not infest the blog with Ahmadi propaganda. You are a liar for suggesting that.

    5. Your suggestion that Indians came to my rescue is just shameless. I kicked your butts all on my own.

    We stand for Ahmadis and all other minorities of Pakistan fighting against Maududi casteism

  238. karun

    Dear Gorki

    Why is not a strong neighbor, focused on its own people, its own economic growth (or even westward looking) not desirable?

    It is desirable if it stops bothering me and my country. It wants to bleed my country slowly through state sponsored and non-state actors. It believes to match us eye to eye in armed conflict. It designs missiles named Ghauri and Gajnavi, and the latest if not the last its effect was felt on 26/11.

    i wish my country could spend money spent on us rather than siachin but it does not let that happen

    besides the most important thing being it(pak army) is incorrigible.

    What if war (even non nuclear) with Pakistan does not solve any problems but instead pulls India too into an abyss?

    there are a lot of what ifs? japan after world war II could have been a what if also

    And what is your own view of Islam and the Muslims in the subcontinent and its history? Is it same as Nehru’s?

    I will not go on the theological underpinnings, but Islam needs immediate reformist movements similar to hinduism’s 14-15th century or christian renaissance. I have read perhaps at this site that 12th century Islam was very liberal and outward looking before it was subjugated to blinkers of theology.

    If islam is Rumi, Attar and Sinai well then there is nothing in the world which is more fragrant and sublime however if it is deobandi,maududi,taliban osama then probably its better if the religion did not exist.

    subcontinent islam is syncretic islam in its teachings, in its leaders(sufis) and rulers(mughals), in its food and its culture , in its architecture. amalgamation and hybridisation always produces a higher aesthetically evolved thing. hence subcontinet islam is superior to wahabi islam of arabia which is unidimensional.

    the current problem is that muslim world in the sub continent is being forced to confirm to unidimensionalism and hence reform is absolutely must.

    This syncretic form, this amalgamation makes me feel that Hindus muslims sikhs christians can really live together without being at each others throat. someone somewhere will be ultimately a minority. what would you do…keep on dividing till you make every individual the king of his dominion.

    I thorougly believe in vasudhaiva kutumbakam. The world is a family and the individuals ultimate goal is to absolutely lose all his identity(name and form) so that he and the society is at perpetual peace.

  239. karun

    @ bc
    federalism Vs Central authority (then it was again jinnah’s assumption that the congress would not espouse a federal cause?)

    federal w.r.t what, federal only w.r.t north indian muslims, or say federal w.r.t punjab,sindh,bengal,bihar,bombay,gujurat, madras presidency?
    ( i do think the congress and the constituent assembly did prescribe a constitution which provided for a federal setup.
    if i remember correctly> centre list, state list, concurrent list)

    why could this not have been attained if pakistan was within and not separated?

  240. karun

    if i stretch the federal argument:

    well pashtuns and balochs should be justified in their federal demands should’nt they like the bengalis???

  241. Hayyer 48

    @Karun:
    Siachen is not something Pakistan created. It is entirely self invented. If we didn’t want trouble in Siachen we should not have started it.
    I suggested in one of my posts that you should read more. It was not a barb. You should, and not only officially accepted popular accounts by Indian authors.
    The Congress and Muslim League arrived at an agreement in 1916 courtesy of Jinnah. This agreement called the Lucknow Pact assured a federal India. Nehru (the son) was not on the scene yet and Gandhi was only an arriviste, having yet to capture the Congress. By the mid thirties Jinnah had come back from England and the Congress was effectively in the clutches of Gandhi, Patel and Nehru, with only a few Muslim faces.
    It was this new Jinnah that the Congress had to contend with, particularly when it had stopped talking about its federal concession of 1916.
    There were only two players then in the mid thirties, the Congress and the British. The League was not a player. There was no one to speak for the Muslims. The Round Table Conferences showed that. The Congress claimed to speak for all Indians. That it did not do. It did not speak for Bhagat Singh; Jinnah did.
    This Congress myth, that it speaks for all Indians was, and is self delusional. It would not concede space to Muslims even as it sought to capture their vote; a policy unchanged even today.
    Your question was I think why Muslims could not get along in the Congress like other Indians. Actually the other Indians were, nearly all of them Hindus. Also, the Congress not only did not represent all Indians it did not represent all the Hindus, let alone Christians and Sikhs or the Dalits.
    It was a party of majoritarian interests. That continues to be so. The Congress has a two tone communication system. It calls seductively and sweetly but delivery is in the gruff tones of the thanedar. Speak up if you dare to.
    Pakistan has a federal problem too. It is more difficult and more easy in their case because Punjabis are more than half the population and along with the Pakhtuns nearly all the military. In India some particular groups dominate but all don’t get equal opportunity.
    At least three brilliant Muslims did join the Congress. Badruddin Tyabji in the late 19th century urged the Muslims to unite with Hindus (the Congress was a Hindu party then) in the Congress in the national interest. Jinnah himself joined the Congress first and only later took on additional membership of the AIML. Azad too as the leading Muslim on the All India stage joined the self proclaimed national party. Jinnah ofcourse refused to remain an emasculated voice blindly following Gandhis policies when he patently disagreed with them, as he was not afraid to express; others did.
    The Muslims were over a quarter of the population. They had ruled India for hundreds of years. They were looking for assurances that they would not be politically submerged in independent India, as they have today(no matter whose fault). The Congress did not reach out to them or to Jinnah, when he became a Muslim leader. As insensitive then as it is now the Congress failed to accommodate the wide cross section of the national spectrum. It was a difficult task admittedly but the Congress High Command never ever sought to introspect. It assumed that Muslims could make nothing out of the AIML and could be ignored, and that is where it remained stuck till the end.

  242. Hayyer 48

    Last line, second last para. ‘others did not’

  243. Ahmed Chowdhry

    @YLH – Why do you even bother replying to these dumb wits? They are intellectually ignorant with brain washed minds and hateful views. They have no class, hardly any knowledge of world affairs and cannot put in an argument without indulging in obscenities. You are far superior to them in every way.

    My advise – Just ignore the losers because that is what they are at the end of the day. Just a cheap cyber version of JI and their defeated ilks who have attained nothing in their life times and they are just uttering their frustrations as they get ignored and buried in the dustbin of history.

  244. Gorki

    Dear Karun, Hayyer and all others:

    After reading the above discussion between you both I am taking a leap of faith; I am assuming an absence of malice from either side and also assuming that both sides; pro and anti MAJ are arguing their respective stands from a completely secular position which is also ethical and morally justified.

    How can I assume this good faith in the first place and if so then why there is so much mistrust, even anger and paranoia?

    The answer to the first question is easy; because I too have been assailed by similar questions as Karun till lately and also although Hayyer has written a very lucid summary of his position, it is not easy to grasp (and believe) something that is a complete U turn from all your prior beliefs. So all I ask of you good people on both sides of the debate is this: Grant me a wish to not insult each other, and to read what the other side has written and give it a thought before rejecting it. And give me a week or so before you give up on each other.

    OK then. First of all understand that when the two sides argue so vehemently is not only because one is a MAJ or a Nehru partisan due to blind hero worship but also due to the fact that the implied positions of their respective heroes are their own; thus while one can questions Nehru’s action as a person (and I have never had any problem conceding his human failings and honest mistakes) I do not (and I think people like Karun and Akash too)do not want to concede the Idea of a secular syncretic India which is no longer Hindu or a Muslim state but we all hope has evolved in the last 1000 odd years into the syncretic culture of Nehru’s DOI. Similarly on the opposite end of the spectrum YLH understands that when Raza Rumi labels him a ‘Jinnah parast’ he is open to the charge of hero worship, yet he is not only defending his hero, he is also defending MAJ’s secularism for his Pakistan which go hijacked along the way.

    So then a discussion can take place; what has no place here is; abuse, or hateful language. Karun calls for war and if I understand him right it is a defensive war; yet he has to understand that the non state actors are no one’s friends. If MM Singh had gone to war after 26/11, both India and Pakistan would be loser, but there would have been one unambiguous winner; the terrorists. One has to be smart enough to realize that one does not have to love your opposite number to avoid falling into a trap.

    Again due to a lack of time, I cannot go into many details but leave both sides with something to chew on for a while. Please take note of the following and think about it:

    1. The TNT of Nehru partisans is different from the TNT of MAJ

    2. The Nehru we worship (Is the Nehru of the DOI and the years of 1947-1964) and is different from the Nehru that YLH disrespects that of 1935-1947. ( I personally can see both POV)

    3. The MAJ we know in India was a different man because he was a man we rarely mention; that of 1916; and no he did not have a change of heart; he was still the same man.

    4. Nehru saw India as a syncretic India that started taking shape the day Muhhamad Bin Qasim marched into Sind; The ancient Hindu India was gone forever fro that day onwards; also that MBQ and his men too changed forever; the Arabian in them too changed the moment they crossed Indus.

    Some of us believe this.

    Others (RSS and JI) believe that the Hindu India and Muslim India could again be neatly parceled back if only the two sides could be separated.

    I think (and BTW so do YLH and PMA and BC) that it cannot be done as once we make Kheer the milk and rice become mixed into something new, a whole bigger than the sum of its parts.
    Now this Kheer is lying in two different vessels; that is acceptable to me (and I hope to all other Nehruvians) what is not acceptable is to hunt each grain of rice from this kheer in one side to transfer it into the opposing vessel.

    Regards.

  245. kabir

    @Gorki,

    I love the Kheer analogy–so beautiful and apt. Our South Asian composite culture is really an awesome part of our heritage: Sufism, cuisine, language, clothing, architecture, etc. I wish we could appreciate and revive this instead of constantly fighting about what is Indian and what is Pakistani.

    Nehru was basically a good and decent man and so was Jinnah. Neither were prophets or gods. Rather both were politicians who made mistakes.

    Jinnah used Pakistan as a bargining chip and Congress called his bluff. Thus Jinnah ended up with a moth-eaten Pakistan (yeh dagh dagh ujhala…). Then Jinnah died, and subseqent Pakistani leaders did not follow his secular vision and let the political discourse get hijacked by the religious right. This is Pakistan’s tragedy.

    India evolved in a secular and democratic fashion, yet the BJP types remain a strong presence and communalism remains a problem. Both countries have a quite a ways to go to achieve the visions of their leaders. We progressive types should support each other’s endevors rather than let our respective hawks drag us into a shouting match or (god forbid) a war situation.

    Regards.

  246. Bloody Civilian

    karun

    H48 has answered your questions. the INC went back on not only the lucknow pact of 1916, but also the nehru report of 1929. and the alliance and coalition promise of ’37. AIML only won UP and bombay in ’37. congress got even fewer muslim votes than the AIML.

    H48 says “It [INC] assumed that Muslims could make nothing out of the AIML and could be ignored, and that is where it remained stuck till the end.” i’d put it differently. in ’46 AIML got 90% of the muslim vote. INC could not ignore it any longer. nobody could. the INC decided that partition was preferable.

    i’d add that the AIML rejected the 16 june version of the CMP out of hand. it was almost the same as the june 3 plan of 1947. it accepted the 16 may version instead. read it if you haven’t already to find out one version of an answer to your questions about federalism.

    btw, JUH, deoband’s political wing, is and continues to be congress allies. right from its inception. azad was there at its inception and had a lifelong association with the JUH.

  247. Gorki

    Btw, JUH, deoband’s political wing, is and continues to be congress allies. right from its inception. azad was there at its inception and had a lifelong association with the JUH.
    ………………………………………………..
    Thanks BC.

    Karun Sahib:

    The above is quite true; and this is a very important fact.

    It took me a while to understand the importance of this fact since I believed the INC POV, which was that secular Muslim leadership supported the INC while the communal AIML backed MAJ.

    If one takes a hard look though the facts are opposite. The modern looking, progressive middle class Muslim formed the backbone of AIML and the conservative, religious wing of Indian Muslims backed INC.
    Why so?

    The congress under the influence of Gandhiji was a party that professed secularism yet was given to heavy religious symbolism; ‘Bharat Mata’ as a Devi, a call for Ram Rajaya, a return to ancient village republics etc. which made the progressive Muslim mind uneasy.
    Gandhiji (in all fairness he was being earnest) tried to compensate by similar Muslim symbolism to balance the Muslims.
    While this appealed to the conservatives (Mullahs and Maulanas) but infuriated the progressives even more;

    “How come the Muslims are never satisfied even when we are willing to balance their religion and its symbolism among our party?” went the bewildered INC thinking.

    “Who are these Hindu Banias to define what an Indian Muslim is?” Went the equally bewildered AIML thinking.

    As you can see there was a lot of mistrust among the two equally well meaning sides.

    The real tragedy is that if INC had accepted MAJ’s claim of being a spokesperson of the Indian Muslims, (which incidentally was validated by all the middle class Muslims who voted for him in 90%+) MAJ would have lead this group out of the reach of fundamentalist JI types.

    The real tragedy is that if Nehru had understood and had stood up to Gandhiji’s religion balancing act, MAJ would have been his most natural, most modern, most rational and a most secular ally!!

    Karun asked why Khalistan movement was defeated in Punjab.
    The history of Khalistan movement is a lesson in dos and don’ts of a secular society.
    First, Indira Gandhi let Giani Zail Singh try to out Akalis the Akalis by pandering to Bhindranwale. Once it got out of hand the movement started and the fundamentalists ruled the roost while moderate secular types were scared into submission. (So don’t do this)

    It was only finally defeated when a coalition of moderate Sikhs in the Congress, (Beant Singh) the Akali Dal (Badal) and the services (Punjab police, which was 90% Sikh) decided to take on the fundamentalists themselves because they did not want to give up their own liberal lifestyle and worldview. So Sikhs were not wanting the Congress to define what it is to be a Sikh but once let to themselves, they did the defining.
    (So let ‘them’ do this instead)

    Sure Punjab in 2009 is not ruled by the Congress but the Akalis, but it is solidly Indian.

    With vision, understanding and patience, this could have been the AIML story in the North Western priovinces in 1947.
    Regards.

  248. Gorki

    The MAJ we know in India was a different man because he was a man we rarely mention; that of 1916; and no he did not have a change of heart; he was still the same man.

    Read as :

    The MAJ we do not usually know in India was a different man than we have been led to believe; because he was actually a man we rarely mention; that of 1916; and no, he never had a change of heart in 1947; he was still the same man.

  249. Bloody Civilian

    gorki

    good analogy.. the ‘ownership’ part, that is. it is about democracy. a higher level of democracy. not just secularism. joint ownership (of even the ‘composite’ identity; who was INC alone ‘to define what or where at an Indian, Muslim or Indian Muslim is?’ ). mutual respect. not just good will. what the average sikh could understand at close quarters with his/her own life and lifestyle under direct threat, political opportunists or strategists in delhi could not. the sikhs/punjabis took ownership. the badals phase too will pass.

  250. Dude! Be aware this thread has been made to serve two causes; first to preach Ahmediat in the name of discussion and second to ridicule the religious right which is the main hurdle in their ways. I can’t say anything about Rumi but YLH and his wife Ayesha are scraping with different screen names to spread their “message” of Ahmediat. After analyzing so many messages, I received through my email [subscription] I have reached to the conclusion which compel to urge the rightist to not post anymore. Let them do whatever they want to do. Utilize your time somewhere else, in fact by highlighting the issue of American expansionist which deserve more attention. Be in Peace Yasser and Company, do your work and enjoy it.

  251. yasserlatifhamdani

    Dear Talkhaba,

    Have some shame. My wife and I only write under our own names. Unlike you and other shameless cowards and crooks of Fitna-e-Maududiat we don’t hide behind screen names.

    There is absolutely no other names we write under… and you are a disgusting human being. Is this what Islam teaches you? To lie like a piece of $#%*&?
    This could not be the real Islam! This is Maududi’s distortion.
    Grow up.

  252. talkhaaba

    You haven’t changed you and we can’t but at least your language. Hope After this purification course you wouldn’t abuse anyone

  253. talkhaaba

    We couldn’t changed you and we can’t but at least your language has been changed. Hope After this purification course you wouldn’t abuse anyone anymore.

    Best Regards
    Talkh-Aaba

  254. yasserlatifhamdani

    Ha ha…

    I may have toned down my “language” on the personal appeal of AZW, RR and others, but I stick by my view of the liars, crooks, cranks, madmen of the Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat!

  255. talkhaba

    YLH you proved that: Asal Kabhi Nahen Badalti. I could use an Urdu Proverb but by those i would voilate the limits set by my [secular Jiayala but Alhamdulellah not a Qadiani] father for me my brother and sisters. He told us ” Beta don’t use abusive language no matter if the other party is using it. The language you use reflect your personlity” Yasser your proved that Asal Kabhi nahen Badalti.
    @ RUMI and AZW
    don’t waste time on this guy. He will never change, just like a thing that never change. Samjhdar hain Aap Samjh Gae hongay “a thing” kia hai

  256. yasserlatifhamdani

    So you have issues with your father then? See I knew something was very wrong. You are a nutcase. What is this with the moral brigade nonsense and oedipal complex you have?

    And by the way you are far more foul mouthed than I.