“It will cut off Muslims’ heads- Jai Shri Ram”: Nehru’s grandson

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

If Nehru could see this, he would probably not be as blind to the religion and caste-based ugliness of his constituents as he was when he refused to recognize that there was some logic to Muslim grievances.  If the scion of the supposedly secular Nehru-Gandhi family could use such language what should one say of others?  

Varun Gandhi reminds one of our own Mr. Aamir Liaqat Hussain.  One suspects that both had sheltered upbringing as is obvious from the copious amounts of baby fat on their faces and one also suspects that there might be greater issues pyschologically, mentally and indeed self image that are at play.

Here is an excerpt from a  brilliant article by Javed Naqvi in Dawn :

Varun Gandhi is Rahul Gandhi’s younger first cousin, both being grandsons of Indira Gandhi, and great grandsons of Jawaharlal Nehru himself. Indian newspapers found it particularly scandalous that the scion of the house of Nehru, the erudite, liberal and secular founder leader of Indian democracy could indulge in dirty street slang. For a knockout blow he even abused Mahatma Gandhi, who though unrelated to India’s ruling Gandhi clan, has served as an ageless mascot for a host of parties.

It would make sense to berate a young first-time candidate in the fray for straying from the line. But that is putting it mildly. What the Indian media will not discuss is that the young Gandhi is a product of decades of the communalisation that has given India many a popular government both at the centre and in the states. Their coyness is nothing but a sleight of hand, for it fortifies the very tendencies that the media and indeed a section of the middle classes appear to want to reject.

For months if not years Varun Gandhi has been spewing communal venom in his columns through the rightwing journal, Organiser. Every significant Hindu leader has patronised the journal, which is treated with reverence reserved for a party mouthpiece.

Of course, that is where the sleight of hand comes in. The question that will not be asked is whether and why Atal Behari Vajpayee, before India’s opinion makers anointed him as a moderate leader and before he began to compare himself with Nehru, gave exactly the same speech as his younger party colleague did the other day.

When did Vajpayee, whose Enoch Powell-like “rivers of blood” speech in Assam led to the infamous Nellie massacre of Muslim women and children by enraged Hindus in 1983, become a moderate leader?

Indira Gandhi had to personally throw out copies of the India Today magazine from the Delhi’s Vigyan Bhavan where the Non Aligned Movement was holding a summit conference. She was naturally embarrassed that the world would see the cover, which showed piles of dead bodies of Nellie victims. That was the contribution of Vajpayee to his heir Varun Gandhi’s upbringing. The supposedly moderate Vajpayee made another contribution to India’s communal cauldron. He revived in one stroke the foundation of Muslim zealots in Assam. Today, they have gained worrying electoral clout in the sensitive state.

Again that may have been the precise purpose of the rightwing BJP and it could partly explain the vested interest that exists in creating the communal Muslim genie. It is hardly a coincidence that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, rightwing Hinduism’s ideological fountainhead, issued an appeal the other day — even as Varun Gandhi was laying into the Muslims in his constituency in the Himalayan foothills — to increase the salaries of the muezzins of thousands of Indian mosques. The Muslim clergy is both a necessary counterpoint and a potential ally of majority communalism in India.

How true!  And this started in 1919 with “Mahatma” Gandhi’s encouragement of the the Mullahs and Moplahs in the Khilafat Movement. Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat:

 It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ‘HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

Now both of Gandhi’s allies – the Hindu revivalists and the Islamic fundamentalists are calling for their pound of flesh from both India and Pakistan- the successor states of British India.

81 Comments

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81 responses to ““It will cut off Muslims’ heads- Jai Shri Ram”: Nehru’s grandson

  1. yasserlatifhamdani

    The real question is why does Baby Gandhi get scared of Muslims at night… and most importantly are these Muslims from NWFP?

  2. Amber

    Why is this article on PTH is beyond comprehension. It has got nothing to do with Pakistan and gives more media coverage to a politician who is just about average. Congress must be sitting smug in their office after planting this story in the media and now Muslims will again vote like herded sheeps. Good job YLH for you service to Indian Muslims. Now we know why they want to trade their passports for Pakistani ones.

  3. YLH

    Yeah Amber…you don’t have anything to do with Pakistan either but you are on PakTeaHouse as well.

    Since you indians forgetting your auqaat, I thought I’d give you a reality check about your own country.

  4. YLH

    “Just about average”

    That is not the point. Varun Gandhi is the scion of India’s most “secular” and “liberal” family.

  5. Amber

    Thanks for the reality check, but I guess it was the Indian media that exposed this story and you just lifted it. So much for Pak Tea House.

    You are writing a blog in public domain and it is open source of information. Don’t expect everyone to agree with you. You throw tantrums worse than a 3 year old kid.

  6. Amber

    “Varun Gandhi is the scion of India’s most ‘secular’ and ‘liberal’ family.”

    LOL oh yes. The same family whose party was behind the 84 sikh riots and dozens of others before BJP even existed. Political parties are not communal or secular, parties are only opportunists. It’s the votes that count. Everyone is wearing a mask, only difference is that some wear it openly like the Modi mask and some wear it inside their house.

  7. Upadhyaya

    First things first. This one-liner (cutting off thing) is showcased in isolation. There’s a background. There’s Muslim communalism in UP albeit propped up by a OBC party like Samajwadi Party is a mafia gang in the badlands of UP. Secondly there’re instances of temple demolitions and raping of Hindu girls. There seem to be no action on part of the administration. Now this election time and people go overboard to get votes (mind you this is not a public meeting where Varun made this hate speech, so the language is a bit unpalatable).

    Secondly there’s always a tendency in India to dub any Hindu assertiveness as communalism but Muslim assertive as secularism. I am not amused by what you write because you pick up what you want to showcase against.

    You don’t know Islamists are eating away the nation of India from within (If you know what’s happening in NWFP and FATA then you’d understand what I am saying).

    As for Assam killings, it’s the other way round now. Last year hundreds of murders happened against Hindus by Bangladeshi immigrants and thousands were rendered homeless because those areas once anti-immigrant groups (Hindus) wreaked violence are changed in demography in favour of illegal Muslim Banglaeshi immigrants who rendered the native Assami Hindus minority now. You deliberately chose to ignore the key point that’s these illegal immigrants now take control of everything there. So, you expect us to surrender our land to these illegal immigrants?

    Muslims are a kind of holy cows and Hindus are immoral whores? That’s what you want to paint here?

    You suffer from Islamist Pakistanisis. Your phobia can’t be cured.

  8. YLH

    Dear Amber,

    You are the one throwing a tantrum yaar.

    No need to get abusive. We are not investigative journalists to break stories here.

    Mine is a comment pure and simple about the hypocrisy of Indians like you lecturing us on anything.

    Pakteahouse cannot be an escape for scoundrels my friend- be they of any nationality. The very fact that you are upset about this post here is itself an example of this.

    As for your other comments…majoritarian assertiveness is fascist…minoritarian assertiveness is always affirmative action.

    But in so far as Islamic fundamentalists are concerned- it seems that they are egged on by all majoritarian parties in India.

  9. Amber

    get real. Have you ever heard someone breaking story on a blog, unless it is about the litter of puppies they have just had.

  10. Dastagir

    OPEN WEAKNESS : There is A reply to Varun… but who will utter the lines ? Who will bell the cat ? AT THIS VERY MOMENT, RIOTS/ POGROMS /GENOCIDE against Muslims are being planned at RSS Headquarters in Nagpur. At this very moment !

    Ah.. wish someone stand up and say : IF Anyone endengers The lives and honour of Indians, I will cut his **** and throw it to the dogs…

    This is the way to tackle RSS… from a position of strength. But where is that strength ? Secularism is NOT protecting Muslims from Hindu Mobs shouting Jai Shri Ram ! Secularism is protecting Hinduism from the terrorist ideology of Hindutva.

    Inciting People to Commit Mob Violence is Terrorism Too. Varun Gandhi must be declared a terrorist… (atleast within the confines of one’s own heart). Muslims have no power… cannot do anything.. cannot hold the hand of a terrorist like Varun, who moves around with 25 armed goons… Kam se kam.. dil mein isko buraa maano… ke yeh imaan kaa… kamzor-tareen…

  11. Milind Kher

    Dastagir,

    You are absolutely right. Inciting people to violence is also terrorism.

    The shameful incident of the Babri Masjid demolition is the worst terrorist activity that took place in Modern India.

    Those who orchestrated it, as well as the riots thereafter, still roam scot free.

    Hinduism has a wonderfully tolerant ethos, which is what has enabled to many rich civilizations to thrive in India. India has imparted a delightfully Indian flavor to Islam too without detracting from it in any way. Very different from Hindutva.

    Hindutvavadis are not Hindus, just like terrorists are not Muslims

  12. Shahzad

    The Indian election commission is making a lot of noises about the Varun Gandhi episode, yet I can safely say nothing much will come of it………..so much for India’s rule of law……………

    I have no doubts that he’ll contest the elections and win, the cases against him will go through the courts and eventually die a slow death.

  13. Amber

    @Shahzad

    Well! We do have similar systems don’t we.

  14. Milind Kher

    Shahzad,

    It is almost like telepathy – I had the same thoughts. What more can we do than create awareness and urge that something be done?

    Let us hope that the Government takes a tough stand.

  15. YLH

    Yes Amber we do. Except we know it and you guys gloss over it.

    As a wise man once said- some people know their shit stinks. Others eat it like halwa.

  16. Milind Kher

    YLH,

    Was that wise man someone we know on PTH?

    I get this feeling it was you..:-)

  17. Dastagir

    Point 1 : Re: MOB VIOLENCE – HATE SPEECH – INCITEMENT to commit group-crimes (mob-v): In normal times / during elections. What is the position of the Indian Penal Code ? That is the academic question.

    1.a : Is the Indian Constitution honoured on Indian Soil ?

    Muslims derive logic/protection (sheild) for their argument from the Constitution of India. The RSS has made consistent effort to influence to the Average Hindu (1952-to date) that the Constitution as enacted (and as it stands on the books today – inspite of 95+ amendments) is detrimental to the interests of Hindus… and is more beneficial to Muslims. That LOGIC has finally embedded in the minds of the common Hindus.

    Hindutva will eventually destroy eclectic Hinduism., but these so-called “Protectors of Hindu Girls from Muslim Goons” dont give a damn to the ideology. Politics today is a Bn $ business.

    An average Indian Politician starts his politicial career with a SUPER-HIT Speech against Indian Muslims… we will chop your hands / slash your necks / abduct your daughters / burn your homes / send you to Pakistan /drown you in the Arabian Sea / etc. 50 YRS back AB Vajpayee started with such a speech… Advani.. and the list is so long … it would need pages. So, ideally a new entrant gives his first HIT speech targetting Muslims… I have personally heard Mrs. Indira Gandhi saying the same thing as what Varun said… but in a sleazy manner… quoted with diplomacy and finesse. But the end result was the same…”Hatred for Muslims”. While taking the names of Muslims., her face used to go tedha-medha. While pronouncing Muslim names., i could see hatred in her eyes.

    I heard Sanjay say the same thing… Bring Your Quran… Muslims are breeding fast.. i will kill your young men… and abduct your daughters… etc.. etc.. Turkman Gate… Meerut.. etc. etc.

    The Indian Muslims have neither SOFT power nor HARD power. Naturally, this tempts RSS to cross all borderlines of decency. Who is there to hold the hand of RSS ? EH … It can do whatever it wishes… all under the safforn banner of Hindutva.

    In other words, Hindutva is a philosophy of turning peace-loving Hindus into criminals of humanity. Thats why i say., Hindutva and Humanism are incompatible. Hindus are a smart people… they have refused to fall into BJP’s trap… but the RSS is working 24×7 for the past 80 years… and with the weakened Congress (Pvt Co… which has fallen to accept Soft Hindutva)… RSS time has now come. It is setting the agenda of India’s Polity.

    Main goal is to : annul the constitution as it stands today., and declare Muslims 2nd class citizens (which they already are… but do it legally… dhadalle se)… so that the paper-shield of the constitution that the Muslims have.. even that protection is removed from them…. and they are TOTALLY exposed.

    RSS is the world’s largest terrorist organisation. Varun moves around with 25 armed goons.. armed with AK47s. Who will be able to lay hands on him. I wish someone strip him naked… and images of him.. running naked.. .are shown throughout India. Dont harm him.. just strip him. This is the way to deal with RSS. You have to stoop to their levels. Ugly Levels… cuz these people will NOT … and do NOT listen to decency.

  18. Milind Kher

    Dastagir,

    Even today, there are a lot of Hindus like Harsh Mander, Mallika Sarabhai etc who are working hard to maintain Muslims as equal citizens of India. Unfortunately, these are dubbed as “pseudo secularists.”

    These are now not matters that can be resolved at the subcontinental level, they have to be raised in international fora.

    Unfortunately, Pakistan has its own challenges in terms of Taliban and terrorists, so the sane millions in either country are never heard.

    Only the Baitullah Mehsuds and Varun Gandhis of this world make good copy.

  19. Shahzad

    YLH, I am cracking up here, the halwa thing is just hysterical….

    Milind, nice to know you feel the same way.

    Amber you’ve got to decide what you stand for, you just realized we have similar systems and yet you were upholding India’s constitutional superiority.

  20. Amber

    YLH,

    Stop wallowing in your shit as you have confessed that it smelled bad.

    My point was that this has been in news for more than a week in every Indian tv channel and then you post the same stuff in your blog. This is not even breaking news material. Varun Gandhi is a political non entity in terms of mass support so why make him a hero. If it makes you feel happy sneering at India, so be it, make yourself happy.

  21. Shahzad

    And YSL buys yours to put it in their perfumes, be sensible yarr.

    And as much as you’d like to repeat it, Varun Gandhi is not a non entity. In our parts of the world unfortunately familial ties still mean a lot. The BJP has picked him up to counter Rahul Gandhi in the long run and Varun has just paid his dues with that speech to prove his allegiance to his masters.

  22. Topgun

    I second Amber on this.

    Media has a big part in popularizing these non-entities by their sensational coverage. That amplifies their non-agendas and gives it a seriousness when they should have been ignored in the first place.

    Varun Gandhi, even though he is scion of Nehru family, is an absolute political non-entity. Ditto Raj Thackeray. Yet these guys have more than their share of media coverage than a half-decent guy can even think of – just by sounding more atrocious.

    Communalism is on the wane in India. Every single assembly election that was held in India recently, was won or lost on the development plank. If that was not the case, Congress would not have won Delhi overwhelmingly. Even the states of Gujrat (Narendra Modi) and Madhya Pradesh were won on the basis of development plank. Mayawati, the dalit leader, has more Brahmins flocking to her than BJP in UP.
    India is a democracy – and the dynamics that shape it has confounded even Poll analysts (psephologists). They got themselves spectacularly wrong when they predicted a big win for NDA in the last Lok Sabha elections. It will be oversimplification to give Indian general elections a communal v/s secular flavour. Their are other priorities of electorate that count more than Ram and Rahim.

    While Ratan Tata/Ambani may be celebrating with Modi, it is definitely not on communal/secular flavour. In business, you should, as a rule, be apolitical. Ratan Tata was as comfortable with CPI of West Bengal (“Secular”) as he was with Modi in Gujrat (“Communal”). That was because he wanted to set up the Tata Nano Plant. Ambani’s largest refinery is located in Gujrat. There is no benefit in reading further to their bonhomie with Modi.

    As for Varun Gandhi incident, BJP has distanced itself from it. Varun Ganhi himself has said that his tape was doctored. Atlest that shows some fear of law. There are far better things happening in India, and of course, Pakistan. It is a question of seeing glass half full or half empty.

  23. Shahzad

    Topgun,

    Any country’s media doesn’t exist in a vacuum, so you can’t say that their is a lot of hype. There is demand for this bigotry…..in the words of the great Pablo Escobar he wouldn’t be supplying his wares if there was no demand for it 🙂

    As for the BJP now distancing itself and Varun saying the tape’s doctored(which I think is hogwash), they know the masses have short term memories.

    The glass being hall full or half empty, well that is just wishful thinking. You can’t mask the underlying realities, it was the same case with all the folks who conveniently forgot everything else to support Musshi chacha.

  24. shaistapth

    Pakistan On his own part killed Quaid e Azam(PBUH) Grandson in a dummy police Encounter…..

  25. shaistapth

    link : http://www.karachipage.com/news/feb98/020498.txt
    Quaid-i-Azam’s relative dies in police custody

    KARACHI, Feb 3: A young man who was dubbed by the police as a dacoit and killed in custody last month was the
    grand-nephew of the father of the nation, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

    Sikandar Ali, 18, the only son of his parents, was caught by the Jamshed Quarters Police on Jan 9, along with
    his cousin Ghulam Sarwar, 18, when the youths were on their way to purchase eatables for Sehri. Sikandar was,
    however, found dead after some hours.

    “When the family of Mohammad Ali Jinnah is not safe and is killed by the corrupt police officials, how can
    anyone expect justice and feel proud of the country our elders have created,” said Khurshid Begum, mother of
    the deceased, while talking to newsmen at her dwellings in Dad Mohammad Village, Baloch Para, Jehangir Road.

    She urged the government to conduct a judicial probe into the incident and award exemplary punishment to the
    three police officials involved in the crime.

    The newsmen were shocked to see that the relatives of the Father of the Nation had been living in a small
    house in a pathetic condition in a locality where even basic amenities are not available.

    Sikandar’s father Mohammad Ali is the only breadwinner of the family who earns livelihood by making and
    selling polythene bags.

    Speaking about the incident in her 12×12 feet room in which the family lives, Khursheed Begum showed
    photographs of the family and the invitation card which the prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, had sent to Sikander
    Ali to attend the flag-hoisting ceremony at Quaid’s mausoleum on Aug 14.

    Sikandar was the grandson of Nathoo Poonja, brother of Jinnah Poonja, father of the Quaid. Khurshid Begum is
    the daughter of Shireen Bai, granddaughter of Nathoo Poonja.

    Khurshid Begum and her brother Mohammad Aslam and Mehrunnisa, mother of Sarwar, who is in judicial custody
    told reporters that the boys had left the house at sehri time to buy parathaswhen they saw two groups fighting
    among themselves.

    One of the boys tried to pacify them, but they instead started beating him up. Sikander intervened to save
    his cousin, but he, too, was severely beaten up and injured, they said.

    In the meantime, the police appeared and caught hold of them and booked them on the charge of dacoity, and
    allegedly recovered looted property, a rifle and a dagger from the suspects.

    The family identified the police officials as Tariq, Sahabbir alias Shabbira and Chaudhari Hameed of the
    Special Branch at the Jamshed Quarter Police Station.

    When the uncle of the deceased contacted the police, he was told that residents of the locality had handed
    over dacoits to the police.

    Police had claimed that the two were caught red-handed while they were trying to flee with the booty after
    allegedly looting a house where they had opened fire, injuring one of the inmates.

    The family, however, rejected the police claim. “They can recover even a tank from anyone who does not toe
    their line,” said Khurshid Begum.

    Random interviews in the neighbourhood conducted by this scribe also belied the police claims. Many of them
    said the boy had no criminal record.

    Khursheed Begum said that Chaudhry Hameed and his accomplices had demanded Rs two lakhs for their release,
    failing which they would receive the dead body.

    When the father and the uncle of the deceased went to the police station in the afternoon, they were told that
    Sikander had died of injuries suffered due to severe beating by the people who had caught them red-handed.

    The family was told that the body could be received from Civil Hospital.

    Mohammad Aslam, uncle of the deceased, said the body had visible signs of torture. The arms joints were
    dislocated with swollen feet as he was apparently hanged during captivity and beaten up with a hard object,
    he said.

    Federal minister for Cabinet Division Mahmood Ali who knows the family, expressed deep anguish over the
    incident, and said had Mohammad Aslam, uncle of Sikandar, contacted him, he would have done something for the
    family.

    The family said Mohtarama Shireen Jinnah, sister of the Quaid, had attended the marriages of Khurshid Begum
    and her brother Mohammad Aslam, solemised on the same day.

  26. Shahzad

    Stop spreading crap Shaistapth, the person you are referring to was a distant relative. Jinnah does not have any grandkids in Pakistan.

  27. YLH

    Jinnah’s grandson Mr. Nusli Wadia is alive and well in India and owns Bombay Dyeing.

  28. lal

    What makes it even worse is that Pilbhit is a constituency held by maneka for about 20 years and varuns victory was almost assured…so he didnt make those comments for electoral gains as a canny politician(not that it wud ve made any difference)…he looks more like an idiot that believes all that bullshit…a very dangerous breed ,after all he is the son of sanjay gandhi….probably coming from the nehru family he had to go the extra mile and imitate mody to prove his loyalty to the new masters

  29. simply61

    YLH’
    1) What Varun said was and is unacceptable by any standards.One expected better from someone who carries the Gandhi(Indira Gnadhi’s and not Mahatama Gandhi’s) surname…..and aspires to be a politician

    2)Varun Gandhi is definitely not a/the ‘scion’of the Gandhi family.That ‘honor’ belongs to Rahul Gandhi.Mom Maneka’s confrontation with Indira ensured ‘outcast’ status for her and her only son.Rajiv’s widow has ensured by any means at her disposal that Varun remains in political wilderness.The reason he is with the BJP and not the Congress is this family feud and not ideological convictions.By the point 2 is not made to justify Varun’s speech.That remains condemnable.

    3) For all your erudite writings and lawyerly arguments,YLH, you do tend to fall into the same old pattern of hatred and blame game.Your posting the news was fine but then back you got to Gandhi-Khilafat-blah blah.Isn’t it time that things were left behind and fresher starts made.If I look back at your responses to most of the comments that disagree with you or simply give another point of view,you tend to attack with a viciousness one doesn’t expect to see from someone with your credentials(as told by you via your writings).and no matter how much scholarly material you produce there will remain in this world people who do not buy your point of view vis a vis Jinnah,Gandhi,who was responsible for the partition and how ‘despicable’ a nation India is and how we eat ‘shit’like halwa. So how about just giving your point of view and letting us readers decide what we make of it…..

    I await your response with ‘helmet’ and ‘flakjacket’on. 🙂

  30. Shahzad

    Simply61,

    As much as you would like to turn a blind eye to what happened with Varun, I’ll tell you why we can’t:

    -Incidents like this have happened in the past and anytime they do, I can tell you being a Pakistani the first thing that comes to mind is that partition was probably necessary. I am not saying that that is a rational response but being human that’s the first thing that happens.

    -If this were coming from some crackpot who only had a small following, it wouldn’t be a big deal. It is worrying though that it comes from a mainstream party which has held power previously and can do so again.

    -India’s minorities are not exactly thrilled upon hearing something like that and it doesn’t bode well for democracy.

    -At worst it is cheap populism when there seems to be no need for it.

    -Political parties with populist rhetoric and militant leanings have been in power previously and the results haven’t been exactly, let’s say desirable. I am sure everyone knows what happened to the Weimar Republic.

  31. YLH

    Simply,

    Whether people agree with my point of view or not is none of my concern. What is important is that what I have written is the fact.

    The Gandhi-khilafat nexus was an afterthought after reading Mr. Naqvi’s article …where he points out that RSS is supporting Islamic fundamentalists. I think Patwardhan quote above shows the facts.

    I don’t attack anyone with viciousness except those who attack me with viciousness. More often than not people like Alok and their attacks get censored because they are way too abusive -whereas mine stay because despite their “viciousness” don’t contravene the comments policy.

  32. simply61

    Shahzad, where did I say anything that suggests “As much as you would like to turn a blind eye to what happened with Varun”?
    The word I used was”unacceptable by any standard”.I think in English that would mean that NOTHING could justify or codone that kind of a speech.
    Whatever you have said about the worries of minorities is correct and a cause for concern to us in the majority community also because we do not want our country going the communal way.That would destroy our way of living….

    Our country is a huge one.If some media reports tells you that 100 million Hindus endorse the BJP ideology what you should understand from it is that about 700 million do not endorse the same.Some perspective is required here.

    Some months ago I wrote in a comment here that Indian elections are coming ahead and our already dirty politics will get dirtier still.This is the show I was anticipating.

    The condemnation of this speech has been across the board in India.Infact BJP’s already sinking boat has just sprung another hole because of this very speech.

    Most of us in India love our easy,accepting and multi faith culture and we know that dogma by any name (or religion) is dogma still and once given space, comes back to bite EVERYONE…our simple survival instincts steer most of us in the majority community from jumping into the BJP boat.
    The Congress boat is also not very palatable to us because of their despicable record on very same minority issues but we have few choices so till a REAL third front emerges we will have to choose wisely bewteen these two main parties.

    Have a good day.

  33. snapkold

    About that shit smelling remark. Wasn’t that how politics was described in The Wire. Awesome show.

  34. YLH

    Snapkold,

    I came up on my own 🙂 thanks.

    I am personally really getting sick of everyone making this accusation. Look let us assume that I am being “vicious”…butso many people disagree with me and how many do I attack.

    It is just not true. And I ask people here to be reasonable and stop repeating perceptions that are not rooted in reality.

  35. YLH

    PS Making this accusation as in “I get vicious” etc.

    If I haven’t gotten vicious with you, you have no right to make that claim.

  36. simply61

    YLH, you are right and I am wrong……..I say this because it is just easier and less taxing to agree with you………LOL

  37. Shahzad

    Simply,

    Can we stop with the teaching each other English bit, there’s really no need for that.

    I was commenting on how you portray the incident as if it’s not really important at all and is just something which happens on the sidelines of India’s civil society. But the thing is it is happening in the mainstream. If someone were to say BJP is not part of the mainstream then they have lost touch with reality.

  38. YLH

    No simply tell me when have I been “vicious” with you when you’ve disagreed with me?

    It is not like you haven’t disagreed with me have you.

    I’d like to see an example and if you can’t produce one from our interaction, then I’d like you to retract your statement openheartedly instead of this what you’ve written above.

  39. lal

    well ylh,
    i for one think past week was really boring with u not fighting with anybody…the one with freethinker did not reach the expected heights..u avoide provocation by me and ‘dear’ shistapth…want salman back in this forum though personally…i though he was writing very well

  40. simply61

    YLH,this is not a personal issue but about a very public forum.I am not saying this because you ‘attacked’ me.I think earlier Salman tried to make the same point as I have done now.

    And this is not a court, nor are we fighting a case….so I am not going back to look for evidence etc.
    Maybe it is just me who expects more from a forum of this calibre in terms of not just content but the ensuing debates…..

  41. YLH

    I’ve no idea why salman is not writing. He also kept saying I was being vicious though he admitted I hadn’t been vicious with him.

    Then he suddenly turned on little vicious old me and used the choicest abuses against me, though I completley restrained myself.

    And then there was some zia fellow who wanted to do “empirical reasoning” and when I proved him wrong empirically- he just threw a tantrum.

    No I have a lot of respect for Simply61 /Vandana and I would like to see where I have been vicious with him or her.

    And you Lal I have been vicious with I admit.

  42. simply61

    YLH,can’t you get the simple fact that when you write the way you do(in ur articles) then some of us end up expecting a similar standard from your comments ka style also………?

  43. YLH

    Simply,

    You are being unfair. And good you’ve brought up Salman …where was I vicious with him?

    And for all his “advice” he turned out to be bipolar or something the way he started abusing me for pointing out that some Stacy’s white convert credentials were irrelevant to the discussion.

    By feeding this perception you are doing me a great disservice.

  44. Shahzad

    Folks, if I may that’s the kinda thing that turns away new readers……..

  45. simply61

    Shahzad I don’t remember indicating anywhere that Varun’s thing was on sidelines…….
    but since you have made up ur mind anyway about a billion plus country,there is precious little that I can say to you about seeing things in perspective.

  46. YLH

    Dear Simply61,

    All I am asking you is to point a single instance where I was vicious with you for disagreeing with me?

    I ask only so that I can learn from my mistakes and move forward.

    Else…

    Please don’t feed perceptions which are not based in reality.

  47. lal

    ylh,
    dont remember the exact sentance ,but i think u said something to salman like ‘no body is requesting you to continue posting in this forum’ …i think he was starting to comeup with his own perspective on this blog..that is wat u want in this forum lyk…different perspectives on pakistan

  48. simply61

    YLH, kya ho gaya aaj? I never said you were ‘vicious’ to Salman.I said Salman tried to explain the same stuff to you that at this moment I am trying to get across…..we just do not expect the stuff you write in comment section from you because you first raise the bar by writing well (in your articles).

  49. simply61

    You were not ‘vicious’ to me or Salman…..it is about the nature of the responses to others……Infact had you been ‘vicious’to me I could have just gone away from the forum or read and not interact……….its not about me …..

  50. Shahzad

    Simply,

    Forget it….maybe I am day dreaming, could you give me some perspective on what really happened when Advani’s gang marched on Ayodyah……

  51. YLH

    Dear Simply,

    I’d like you to realize that since I have not been vicious to you despite our disagreements of a fundamental nature, this blanket accusation that I am vicious with anyone who disagrees with me is just absolutely wrong but enough people have repeated this unfortunately inaccurate accusation that people have taken it to be true.

    Lal,

    While I might have said that in a general way (I don’t remember), Salman left after the tracy /stacy incident. And boy he was the only one being vicious …

    My request is that people please stop making this statement if they haven’t personally experienced my viciousness.

    Most people who have experienced my viciousness know why they got it in the first place. Which is why they don’t post longish posts critiquing my behavior.

    Anyway let’s just let it rest.

  52. lal

    shahzad ,
    i am still confused whether ayodhya was a religious movement or a political movement…may be it was bit of both…for the bjp and advani, it was political and for other elements in sangh parivar it was religious…but from my point of view though wholly depiscable,ayodhya was not a as big a crime as gujarath..after all if some people want a temple in ayodhya which they believe is the birth place of rama it is understandable,that they want it at the same place where a mosque atands now is objectionable,and they want it after destroying the mosque there is condemnable…but that is nothing compared gujarath…murdering 1200 people,cutting open the stomach of pregnant lady and then boasting about it 2-3 years after without any sign of remorse,and repetedly electing the same people to power…even living here in india i have never really understood an average gujarathi psyche

  53. Shahzad

    Lal,

    I don’t think there’s any merit in debating if it was a political or religious movement. Are the Taliban acting for political or religious power ?

    I am not sure about the Gujrati psyche either, have many friends from India, all over the place infact save Gujrat…..there’s some deep seated hatred there for muslims which I can’t understand.

  54. lal

    there is a blog by rajdeep sardasai in ibnlive.com about varun gandhi echoing similar view as javed naqvi..let not ‘bjp ka gandhi’ get away

  55. lal

    I have often heard people using ayodhya and gujarath in the same sentance…but from what i see ayodhya brought BJP into power…from a party of 2 seats they became a party that ruled india…and gujarath lost india for bjp…they might repeatedly get elected in gujarath,but till the scars of gujarath remain in public memory bjp will never be voted back in the centre…well that is what i think, but psephology in india is a risky business

  56. YLH

    Dear Shaistapth,

    That is mere sensationalization.

    Jinnah’s grandson would be his own daughter’s son and no one else.

    Is tarah to I know some 50 of Jinnah’s relatives- some really successful like the Ebrahims of Bombay or Merchants of Karachi …others not so.

    So frankly I don’t see what is your point?

  57. shaistapth

    Nehru’s grandson,It has no importance who someone belongs to…..He is a BJP leader,It is expected from him,

  58. Milind Kher

    Shahzad,

    When Advani’s gang marched on Ayodhya, unprecedented communal frenzy was created.

    The Babri Masjid was destroyed. After that, large scale rioting took place in which Muslims were massacred.

  59. Shahzad

    Milind,

    Thanks for clarifying, maybe Simply understands now what I was saying.

  60. kp

    Please do not fight over the thing here… this article is written by javed Naqvi… Please give him the credit … he is there at Dawn news…
    thank you…

  61. yasserlatifhamdani

    kp,

    Jawed Naqvi was given credit for the excerpt that appears in grey and which is the only part that was taken from Naqvi’s article.

    Please read carefuly before making comments or allegations.

  62. Majumdar

    Yasser mian,

    Varun Gandhi is the scion of India’s most “secular” and “liberal” family.

    Right. He behaved just like the scions of Pakistan’s “most secular and liberal family”.

    Declaring Ahmedis non-Muslims.
    Banning booze.
    Creating the Taliban.

    Regards

  63. yasserlatifhamdani

    ha ha …Nehru-Gandhis and Bhuttos…
    they might as well be cousins.

  64. Dastagir

    Majmudar : Dont try to be patronising using the word “Mian” so liberally. OKAY. We can smell the sense with which you are using it. Dont try those artificial fake laughters. Otherwise i would be forced to come down to your level of humor (fake) and write Majmudar Maharaj, or Majmudar Bania or Majmudar Boooowndhu… stressing the vowels… that change the whole context… and add a totally different smell to the noun.

    Jai Ho.

  65. Majumdar

    Dastagir babu,

    Otherwise i would be forced to come down to your level of humor (fake) and write Majmudar Maharaj, or Majmudar Bania or Majmudar Boooowndhu… stressing the vowels… that change the whole context… and add a totally different smell to the noun.

    Pls feel free to do so.

    Regards

  66. Rex

    I am not a fan of the young Gandhi, and I fail to understand why his remarks should cause a furore. Reasons being
    1. He is not really ‘leader’ material and nor is he gonna get anywhere in the political scene. Scion n stuff is just sensationalism talking.
    2. What he said is that “IF” anyone threatens hindus, he will take them on. (You guys really think hez gonna go out n cut hands, you gotta be joking. The joker is just grandstanding.) Why shud it bother someone who has no plans o fight anyone?
    3. About khilafat, what happened in the guise of revolt, atleast in south india, was mass execution of uppercaste Hindus. You wont find it in history textooks , thanx to Nehru and his ilk, but oldtimers would defenitely remember.
    4. About state of minorities in present day India- I can assure you that from kashmir to kanyakumari, ahmedabad to arunachal, a muezzin can safely announce from top of minarets that Allah is the only God, 5 times a day, in a country where 82% are Hindus. Can you say the same about Pakistan? Why dont you compare the percentage of Hindus in 1947 and 2003 in ur own backyard?
    5. All this was not meant to imply that all is rosy in india. Yes, there is much to be desired in terms of equality of classes n stuff. But criticism from a pakistani source is defenitely “pot calling the kettle black”. At least we have not seceeded, under gunpoint, a part of our country to terrorist rule . EC and the elctorate will definitely take him on. and do remember, we have as much or more Hindus denouncing these statements as Muslims.
    6. As someone said above, parttition was indeed a blessing in disguise. Had it not happened, the whole country would have slowly become an Islamic nation which would have stripped the region of its diversity(jus track the decline of minority population in pakistan from 1947-2003). Also,at least we are not strapped with the fragmented warring tribal NWFP and taliban.

  67. Rex

    Another point I would like to add is that even the Indian media is quite biased when it comes to reporting such stuff. There has been quite a few hate speeches against Hindus in general and upper caste hindus in particular, but none of them were panned as communal. The press more or less ignored them. in fact, the norm, nowadays, seems to be, “you wanna look secular, bash hindus n hindutva”. You can have parties called Muslim league, constituencies where only Muslim candidates will be fielded but you open ur mouth to say Hindutva or anything related to it, you are communal.

  68. YLH

    Mian Rex,

    You really need to research before you accuse.

    There are no constituencies in Pakistan where only Muslims may be fielded and all Muslim Leagues have non-Muslim members elected to the parliament.

  69. SSD

    oh dear — apart from the article, i actually spent 15 mins reading the comment section — and the ping pong of who is vicious and who is not is rather taxing! why can you not exchange email addresses a lengthier remarks on personal and intellectual credentials. I enjoy reading the PTH and have always walked away feeling a sense of connection — but i would kindly request this tug of war between individuals on opinions that stretch on for days to rest up after a while. of course in the realm we are not always going to agree, but i find last few months that the arguments stretch a bit too far, and i do avlue debates, but not when parties turn as warring agents on who is right versus wrong…. i guess one can say, i should not visit the blog, na?
    I have great esteem for Raza Rumi and believe in his views and standards, thus, I am pulled to visit.

    The thought of Varun Gandhi ever coming to power is an abhorrent thought!

  70. Bharat

    yes it a fav pastime of Sekular politicians wanna look pro muslim come bash some hindus. Why don’t they pick up the cudgels for Kashmiri Pundits forced out of their ancenstral lands nah that would not get them votes.

  71. Rex

    mian YLH,
    I was not talking about Pakistan. I was talking about constituencies in india. and I’m not talking about rules, i am talking abt norms and precedents.

    Hindus have never really been an integrated vote bank, mostly coz there hasnt been a central authority.

  72. Rex

    While we are at it, can you expand upon the voting and constituency rights of non-muslims in your country?

  73. yasserlatifhamdani

    Yes why not.

    The mode of representation in Pakistan is universal adult franchise regardless of religion, gender or any other origin.

    There are additional reserved seats for Non-Muslims (10) and women (60) but these are in addition to the general electorate.

    Unfortunately Pakistan is not a perfect country as we’ve admitted on this board many times. The one office that has a constitutional bar is the office of the president (we would like to change that some day).. however the Prime Minister of Pakistan can be any Member of the National Assembly… Muslim or Non-Muslim.

  74. gujju gangsta

    I dont understand the hyocrisy of pakis. You wiped out the minorities(hindus-sikhs) 28% of the population. They still ask for kashmir, (what about 10% hindu minority, and 1500 temples?) And why are you raising a hue and cry about ONE disputed structure(a.k.a. babri mosque) and varun’s spech? India needs more varuns, may their tribe increase. If Pakistan is a PROUDLY islamic state, shouldnt we hindus have an equal right to make India a PROUDLY hindu state? and do to the (muslim) minorities, EXACTLY what happened to hindu minority in pakistan?

  75. bonobashi

    Please, a sincere request.

    Can we have an orderly queue?

    I hate disorderly rows and the indiscipline of people fighting each other to get ahead.

  76. D_a_n

    @ Gujju Gangsta…

    Yawn……!

  77. gujju gangsta

    D_a_n,

    Keep yawning………. you will wake up, when I engineer a GENOCIDE of muslims in India. PLEASE take away kashmir……… see what happens. The largest civilian massacre in the history of mankind. 140 million people, in one go.

  78. D_a_n

    @ Gujju Gangsta…

    for a second there I believe you actually ‘came’ when you wrote that…..tissue?

  79. bonobashi

    @D_a_n

    Now you are being stupid and childish. Since when did a Gujju take on anything fiercer than a pregnant woman?

  80. Hayyer 48

    Gujju Gangsta:
    There is no demand for your viciousness here. And going by the result of the election, hardly any in India. Keep your criminal thoughts to yourself, kindly.

  81. benzene in resonance

    gujju gangsta, yaar, focus on the structure of benzene.Make love.