Tragedy in Lahore

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

The Sri Lankan Cricket Team was attacked by unknown gun men earlier today.  According to reports,  up to 8 Sri Lankan cricketers are injured.   One is seriously injured and might not make it. Several of the policemen guarding the cricket team have also been martyred.

Whoever it is is killing off Pakistan slowly but surely.  For all of our bold claims that “cricketers and sportsmen have nothing to fear”,   from today onwards no cricket team or any other sports team will ever visit this country.

Sri Lankans won the World Cup in Gaddafi stadium in 1996.  That was a different era.  Lahore and Pakistan in general was a safe place to be.   Lahore was buzzing with foreigners and no one thought for a minute that they could be attacked.    Now even Pakistanis are scared of going out. Is there any turning back?   Is Pakistan going to unravel in face of forces of extremism, terrorism and fascism?

We don’t know who did it.  We don’t know and don’t care which “foreign” hand was behind it.  What we know is that no one can manipulate a people who are not ready to be manipulated. We must take stock of this situation, before we lose our homeland for ever.

Today we stand yet again with our heads bowed down.  We apologize to Sri Lanka and its cricketers who came to Pakistan when no one else dared to.    We apologize for being a nation of cowards and freaks who haven’t been able to put our house in order.

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200 Comments

Filed under Terrorism, violence

200 responses to “Tragedy in Lahore

  1. pakistani

    I am ashamed today

  2. slowly but surely Pakistan is being demaged and the worst thing is that ‘leaders’ let it be

  3. Dhruva

    YLH

    For gods sake, do not take cover behind “forgein hand” again.
    Don’t you think this convenient excuse has been used time in and again, to disastrous results of self-delusion.

  4. ram

    YLF,

    my prayers are with the policemen who had to lay down their lives in face of mindless violence and with the pakistani public. No justification of any kind can explain targeting of sportsmen.

    However i find it ironic when a “foreign hand” is brought into play immediately. perhaps it is more comforting to apportion blame elsewhere than find time to clean one’s own house. responses should be measured and should not be reactionary.

  5. this is shameful for the whole country.

  6. YLH

    Dhruva, Ram,

    Thanks for your comments. There are two things here:

    I am pre-empting the “foreign hand” theorists… by saying that it is Pakistanis who are ultimately involved in this. If you guys would read things with an open mind instead of having India up your rear orifice all the time, you would read things in its proper context.

  7. YLH

    Most normal people will take quotation marks to be a sign of derision… not so with our Dhruvas and Rams from across the board.

    For them I’ve clarified the post even further by putting the operative part in bold.

  8. Dhruva

    Hi YLH,

    Language please YLH!?

    I never mentioned India in the first place….reading pakistani newspapers for some time, I know far too well that when “forgien power” is mentioned, it is not always India that tops the list
    BTW, can you explan if I read the post with an open mind, what would “forgien hand” mean?

  9. ram

    YLH,

    thanks for the “courtesy” extended to the few folks from the other side of the border who do want to hear your version of the story.

  10. YLH

    Can you tell me what “foreign” in quotation marks means?

    It means – in common English language- that I don’t agree with it. Are you familiar with the language of our erstwhile colonial masteR?

    Can you Indians for once get out of your arse and see that everything is not about you….

  11. YLH

    Ram,

    I don’t care if you want to hear my “version” of the story…

    I don’t have a version. I am just surprised that while I was criticizing my government and people who were speculating about a foreign hand, you Indians had the audacity to imply that I was introducing the concept myself.

    If the “few folk” can’t learn to take things in proper context and automatically assume the worse, I should be inclined to use much harsher language.

    The sun does not rise and set in the Indian arse ok? This is my country under attack… stop making everything about you.

  12. ram

    YLH, that comment that i made about measured responses does not apply to you alone. It also applies to Indians. It is disheartening to note that within 10 minutes of a bomb attack somewhere the first thing ppl in India do is issue sound bytes with pakistan in it. Things are so bad everywhere that you are forced to pre-emptively anticipate the “foreign hand” blame game.

    But forgive me if i did indeed misunderstand the comment for i truly thought it was you who were implying a foreign hand at this. But such language is uncalled for in a forum such as this. I don’t see what such belligerence is supposed to achieve though.

    For that matter Indian and Pakistani arses were like Siamese twins until not too long ago and i am sure both stink the same way.!!!

  13. YLH

    I wonder why you thought what you did? Because it was quite clear (except that it wasn’t in bold) what I meant.

    Is it always… we Indians know better than you pakistanis?

  14. ram

    YLH,

    if i were a pakistani and had misconstrued that comment, would your response been the same. tinged with that much irrational anger and venom. i am sure there are folks there who would have understood it the way Dhruv or I did.

  15. stuka

    This could be India sponsored. Salman Taseer is saying that this was like the Mumbai attack, but this was nothing like it..only a superficial similarity. In Mumbai, attackers were fedayeen. These guys fired a few shots and ran away. Could be a commercial operation as well.

    If Indian pov is that Mumbai was done by LeT (which I do believe) then it makes sense that LeT will not attack a cricket team which was invited by the GoP.

    Somehow, I highly doubt that Al Qaeda or even Taliban is interested in attacking Sri Lankan cricketers. Maybe it was an LTTE attack for teaching Pakistanis a lesson about helping SL Army??

  16. YLH

    It would have been worse.

    But that is not the point. And I am not interested in discussing how or why it was a case of “genuine misconstruction” on your part… for it is there in very plain and clear English language.

    No one in their right mind can misconstrue what is written, unless ofcourse their language skills are weak… which I doubt is the case with you and Dhruva fellow.

  17. Majumdar

    Yasser mian,

    It is a dreadful tragedy and I hope the animals who perpetrated this are hunted down.

    We apologize for being a nation of cowards

    No. Pakistanis are not a nation of cowards. Certainly not the policemen, who if I understand, prevented a much bigger tragedy. It is common men like these who will resurrect Pakistan.

    Regards

  18. YLH

    Stuka… please do us a favor and point out that you are not a Pakistani… lest I get blamed for “foreign hand” again.

  19. stuka

    I am Indian.

  20. stuka

    I think everyone will blame Taliban / Al Qaeda because it’s the easiest story to believe. Human beings like easy answers. And who knows, maybe it is..but I think it’s too pat an explanation.

  21. yasserlatifhamdani

    The extraordinary courage shown by our policemen- Pakistani Hemant Karkares is indeed the only high point in this terrible tragedy.

    They gave their lives for Pakistan’s honor… I agree that they will resurrect Pakistan…

  22. stuka

    “Pakistani Hemant Karkares is indeed the only high point in this terrible tragedy.”

    haha. Hemant Karkare and the two other thullas were all killed while sitting in one jeep. Idiots had not even worn their bullet proof jacket. There was no bravery, just incompetence that killed Karkare and the other two. In fact, that Salaskar cop was an “encounter specialist” who used to carry out extra-judicial killings. He met divine justice.

  23. nikita

    Hemant Karkare and the two other thullas were all killed while sitting in one jeep. Idiots had not even worn their bullet proof jacket. There was no bravery, just incompetence that killed Karkare and the other two.
    pretty nice and mature way of talking about people who bothered to do more than just simply watch t.v. and comment on blogs when Mumbai was under attack and who were gunned down by terrorists, way to go.
    i genuinely want Lahore to remain the epitome of culture, vibrancy and warmth that it is rather than succumbing to such callous terror attacks. i feel that rather than confining ourselves to the cage of nationality we must unanimously condemn these awful attacks and instead of coming up with original theories on who all are responsible for the attack it will do us good to just keep in mind that terrorism is a global phenomenon that can not be defeated by the ideology of jingoism, rather than drowning itself in political bickering, the gov. of pakistan should concentrate its energy on curbing the menace of terrorism.

  24. Milind Kher

    It is indeed a tragedy. A nation that loves cricket so much must have cried from within to see this happen on their soil.

    It is not the time for finger pointing. It is a time for all of us in the region, Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans and others to put up a united front against terror.

    A heart attack does not just damage the heart. The whole body suffers

  25. Milind Kher

    I am sure that if at this point of time the authorities need public support to crack down on terrorists, they will have it.

    Nobody ever forgives or tolerates an attack on innocent sportsmen. Now is the time to get a grip on the situation.

  26. Pingback: Global Voices Online » Pakistan: Attack Against Sri Lankan Cricket Team In Lahore

  27. Pingback: Another black day for Pakistan at Blogbharti

  28. gautam kapur

    HUM PE YEH KISNE HARA RANG DALA ,,,KHUSHI KO HAMARI MAAR DAALA…… madhuri dixit in DEVDAS
    one day pakistan had to reap what it HAS BEEN sowING since 1989.
    you pakistan have been misusing your religion since long– in training your soldiers,in governance,not realizing that you were toxifying your religion
    i cried 8 times in 48 hours during mumbai attacks , your jihadi group attacked my lovely city bombay and we were not able to do anything , why—— because the sher bahadurs have the nukes ,,we cannot attack them . Seems like god takes HIS own revenge apne aap
    i pray that this attack would have been sponsored by R&AW because we indians (even left wing walas)are thirsting for revenge. RAW should conduct more and more such attacks in karachi faisalabad ,on march 12 ,everywherE.INDIA SHOULD PUNISH YOU LIKE NEVER BEFORE. and yaseer latih, even i have read the collected works of gandhi and the speeches of jinnah(and for that matter of jefferson et al). I dont boast about it as you do and dont badmouth other religions(as you badmouth hindus and pandits in your posts).JAATE JAATE ,may pakistan become the new afghanistan and may march 12 be your dooms day. laugh aloud….

  29. My name is Claudia and I work for a radio discussion programme on the BBC World Service called World Have Your Say (www.worldhaveyoursay.com). Our programme today is about what has happened in Lahore. I’d be interested in speaking to you, especially but not exclusively Yasser Latif Hamdani. Please contact me on claudia.bradshaw@bbc.co.uk
    Thank you

  30. Danial Burki

    This is a shocking attack.

    First, I must express my pride in the bravery shown by the policemen that died today. They may not have been properly prepared for such an attack, but the blame for that goes to their superiors. But the manner in which they sacrificed their lives to protect our guests is commendable. Like the Mall bombing last year, I strongly advocate putting up a memorial on Liberty roundabout with the names of these brave policemen.

    Second, on behalf of Pakistan, my sincerest apologies to the Sri Lankan cricketers, who ignored all calls by other countries and security agencies to not tour Pakistan. They were here as our guests, showing solidarity with us when the rest of the international cricketing community abandoned us. They did not deserve this. What goes even more in their credit is their response: they all said they do not regret coming to Pakistan despite this shocking attack.

    Lunatics like Hameed Gul and Qazi Hussain Ahmad and other politicians (with the notable, surprising and noble exception of Altaf Hussain) are doing the rounds on TV, constantly pointing to the “khufia hath”. There is mounting evidence that these attacks were perpetrated by locals, and were clearly intended to humiliate the Pakistani government and terrorise the population. These idiots first said that India orchestrated the attack in Mumbai, and now they are saying that India did this as ‘revenge’. Why the hell would India want revenge for something it did itself? That there is not a single anchor sharp or educated enough to point out these gaping holes in their shameless jingoistic ‘logic’ is disappointing, to be mild.

    I live five minute away from where this happened, and like other Lahoris, I am shaken. But we must persevere, we must honour the sacrifice of our brave policemen, and we must defeat the menace of terrorism.

  31. If it’s any help, can I say (from the UK) that most people that I have spoken to this morning about the attacks recognise that the vast majority Pakistani people will be as, and more horrified, at the attacks as everyone is here.

    Most people here recognise that the extremists who carried out the atrocity are just that – extremists who cannot now be defined by whether they are ‘foreign hands’ or ‘born and bred’ in Pakistan, because their misguided loyalties lie beyond the notion of a nation state.

    I hope to follow cricket in Pakistan, from afar, in the not-too-distant future.

  32. stuka

    “pretty nice and mature way of talking about people who bothered to do more than just simply watch t.v. and comment on blogs when Mumbai was under attack and who were gunned down by terrorists, way to go.”

    Madamji, the average Punjab Police constable who fought terrorism was more of a hero than Karkare. I know that Karkare has become the hero of Pakistan and the “secularist” Indians for investigating the hindu inspired blasts in Maegaon. The connection of Col. Purohit to Samjhauta Express was a media leak, not done by Karakre, but someone from CBI. None of that takes away from the incompetence of three senior police guys sitting in a jeep without any protection during an encounter.

    Oh yeah, this was a “real” encounter, unlike the ones Salaskar was a champion of – taking a suspect to an isolated area and killing him. Salaskar the butcher is now considered a hero.

  33. simply61

    YLH,the police guys who lost their lives today are the clearest proof that its not the ordinary Pakistani who is behind the chaos engulfing the country.They did what they were supposed to do and that combined with the driver’s presence of mind to keep the bus going and head straight for the stadium is probably what saved the Sri Lankan team…..
    But now the future does indeed look bleak for Pakistani sports and society in general.The instability is for real regardless of who it is that is hurtling Pakistan towards to brink.

  34. Pingback: Video and More Coverage of the Attack in Lahore - The Lede Blog - NYTimes.com

  35. Hamid Khawaja

    What happened in Lahore today is most tragic and regrettable. I live here and thus am more sensitive about it.

    The sad part is that the terrorists have succeeded; they got in without being intercepted, they shot at their targets, none of them was hit and none of them has yet to be caught. It does not matter how many Sri Lankans got hit – the aim of spreading terror has been achieved.

    Suprisingly, our well trained “Elite Force” was not able to hit anyone of them in a 15 to 25 minute gun battle. The Sri Lankan team had to be rescued by helicopter; the administration could not ensure their security by road.

    Whoever, had done it has proved that the security of Lahore was lacking. This is what needs to be tackled before anything else. If it is not, we are inviting more such attacks.

  36. Salman A. Hussain

    YLH,

    “Can you Indians for once get out of your arse and see that everything is not about you….”
    ” If you guys would read things with an open mind instead of having India up your rear orifice all the time”

    Does this kind of language suit a writer who has a decent amount of readership at a forum that is getting increasingly popular? I have been reading your posts for some time, and it is your comments that spiral down to almost unbriddled disrespect, offense, and scorn towards those that don’t agree with your point of view and those who voice opinions that are held in India.

    Your offensive remarks are disgraceful and push people away from you and your viewpoint. This is not how an intellectual should behave.

    My readership of your posts has dropped over time because I don’t visit this forum to vicariously enjoy the ugly slur-ladden verbal spats that you indulge in the comments section but rather for the information and the perspective the writer puts out in the post to generate a civil discussion among its readers.

    In short, you have one less reader. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter. But that’s my loss for having one less credible source of information i.e your posts, and a loss for you to have one less serious reader interested in your perspective.

    I would urge you to mind your language and favor the high road so that you may win the war of ideas even if that means not engaging in or loosing the petty battles in the comments section.

    Again you have many choices. Write a confrontational response to my comment, ignore it, not ignore but not reply, realize the merit of using the right kind of language and a civil tone.
    Hopefully you’ll take my comment into consideration and this feedback will be helpful to you.

  37. hari

    Are those pathans we used to hear about as being very loving people in movies not the same set of people who form the Taliban? Maybe I am wrong. But frankly its amazing how the world can screw up to this level. I hope one day the world will one day be where no person, leader, institution, religion, government can beleive that they can own any one person or communities body, mind and soul. And we can all be free individuals. I know this will kill many cultures we all romanticise and love. But frankly that is the only way left forward.

  38. Milind Kher

    I honestly don’t think there is a need for this to become an India Pakistan issue. What is needed is not jingoistic discussion or saber rattling, but appreciation of the fact that both nations are perpetually in danger from terrorists.

    There is a need to realize that we are all sailing in the same boat and need to do something about the terrorists.

  39. YLH

    Dear Mr. Hussain,

    Thank you for your kind words as well as your friendly advice. I am not going to point out that Dhruva and Ram made that comment with a malafide intent. That is obvious from the comments above.

    But you will no doubt appreciate that it is my prerogative to heed or ignore your advice and I choose not to heed.

    Thanking you once again.

    YLH

  40. Salma T

    It is a crying shame this has happened and I just to express my sorrow to the people of SL for having a team brave enough (many will say stupid in hindsight) and the people of Pakistan for having to endure this lunacy.

    Yes the old foreign hands theory always crops up but Pakistanis need to wake up and take their country back from the extremists and rid themselves of the “so called” leaders.

    Pakistan sad to say is at the point where it can either breakdown totally or rise against the current system.

    I just hope something positive comes out of this tragedy.

  41. hayyer48

    This is not about cricket anyway. How many countries in the future to visit Pakistan to play the game is besides the point.
    YLH put foreign within quotes. It should have been clear that his comment was directed at his own countrymen. Rather obutse of you if you did not see that.
    Indians, this is not the time to shed crocodile tears, or say ‘I told you so’.

  42. aliarqam

    We felt Embarrsed…
    Where the advocates of Taliban have gone???
    Who continously were assuring the Cricket teams to come
    TALIBAN…their respectable?? Clients have nothing to do with Players….

  43. aliarqam

    NO INDIANS INVOLVED
    Mujhe Mere Doston Se Bachao….
    Dushmano Se Mey Khud Nipat Lun Gaaa…..

  44. Milind Kher

    Hayyer48,

    Shedding crocodile tears or saying “I told you so” are neither approaches that a mature, right thinking person would take.

    Terrorism is a concern for people on both sides of the border. It would be wrong to indulge in mutual recrimination or one upmanship when the danger faced is so common to both countries.

    There is a need to transcend national boundaries and be concerned about the human community that resides therein.

  45. Hari

    Things cannot get better. Because we have already created the perfect religions of the world. The perfect cultures. The perfect morality. The best countries. The most honourable leaders. All we need to do is to fight for or die for either of them.

  46. stuka

    BREAKING NEWS:

    Our Yasser Pai has been quoted in NYTIMES

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/more-video-of-the-attack-in-lahore/

    Balley Balley Shera..Nice one, dude!

  47. Jake

    Not all Indians (nor all Pakistanis) are hate-filled. That said, the prognosis is not good. Things will have to become much more desperate before well meaning people on both sides exert themselves so that reason and compassion will prevail. But that will be too late. There is a very real danger that extreme extremism will be the end of both our societies.

  48. stuka

    “YLH put foreign within quotes. It should have been clear that his comment was directed at his own countrymen. Rather obutse of you if you did not see that.”

    I agree. OTOH, Yasser is being a bit harsh in assuming that everyone’s level of knowledge of the english language is the same as his own. People have varying degrees of exposure to the language and should not be condemned for their lack of knowledge of english. I guess I am giving benefit of doubt..I don’t interact here often so am unaware of any legacy of spats between the specific interactors.

  49. Malik

    Just a sad day for Cricket and shameful day for Pakistan.

    Sovereignty of Pakistan is slowly dwindling away, the so called leaders/politicians are ready to take fights on streets to get themselves elected. And yet, no one cares about what they have made of Pakistan.

    – We elect the President who spent most of his time in Jail for corruption
    – We support a leader who is ready to bring his personal fights to streets of the country for so called Democracy
    – We think religion itself is more important than the morals and human values (that we have forgotten) that very religion supports

    Only a revolution can change Pakistan – just like the one Turkey had.

    (Sorry its off-cricket-topic but this is how we got where we are today)

  50. Hamid Khawaja

    This is turning out to be a battle between the moderates and the extremists. What is required is an understanding of moderates from both sides so that they can unite and fight the extremists from both sides.

  51. Vengat Ramanan

    YLH,

    Pakistan’s dfence minister has rejected RAW involvement (Stuka attention pls)…so lets not worry too much about that…the problem is that its very tough to anticipate a terror attack…

    terrorists can choose a bazaar, a VIP or an asset…its practically not possible to be alert all the time and you neednt be ashamed of the attack…you should be ashamed if this group happens to be armed by Pakistan’s institutions and have gone out of control…

    and please dont be too harsh…there are many first generation Indian graduates, educated in rural areas, try to interact over the net…unlike your pedigree…their language skills need not necessarily be at par with you…leaders, esp aspiring ;), needs patience…

    take care…

  52. alok

    your frankestein will gobble you up….seriously a few days back people were deliberating about an article whether ‘pakistan will disintegrate or not and many people argued its a scenario too fantastic..i had cautioned all those who were in a mood of denial….

    I will agree with YLH that perhaps that people did not see the sarcasm behind his words but dude do not unload your anger and frustration on these poor guys – they are not the cause of your misfortune …..( not that i think you are an intellectual 😉

    majumdarda stop being so senti and posting such absurd sentimental messages…..those policemen were killed in cold blood…its tragedy camouflaged as bravery to suit the situation…..how sad!!!

    Today in an interview haroon lograt said something significant. He said after the regime change of Musharraf the consultants had strogly advised against the security situation in pakistan….guess probably he was true…musharaff did give us people across the border some semblance of control and sanity….i dont know if democracy is good for pakistan all i know is that marriott, mumbai and lahore are not good for anyone.

  53. Salman A. Hussain

    “Dhruva and Ram made that comment with a malafide intent. That is obvious from the comments above. ”

    Even if I agree with you, their intent is not the point. They are readers, and frankly they have little to no influence over me/reader in comparison with the writer. So I really don’t care that much about Ram or Dhurva’s views and intent. I am interested in your views and your responses.

    The reason I criticized you and not the two readers you mentioned is not because I think that they are right and you are wrong. The reason is that intellectuals are leaders, especially when they become public intellectuals, and hence are/should be held to higher standards.

    If the teacher in the class room kept getting into brawls with his students instead of remaining above the fray, he may win the affection and sympathy of some but looses his influence over the majority that sits on the fence on most issue looking to be persuaded by the better argument.
    Just because two guys stooped low, doesn’t mean that you have to do so as well. And you may certainly choose to stoop down to their level, but then you relinquish your influence over those who look to you for non-partisan information, analysis, and perspective.

    What India needs to do is respect Pakistan’s history, values, ideology, culture, and views. But then how can we Pakistanis expect respect from India, if we cannot/do not return the favor and respect India’s culture, values, and perspectives.

    Anyway, you are right. I do appreciate the fact that it is your decision whether to heed or ignore my advice. You have decided not to heed, but haven’t indicated that you have decided to ignore my suggestion. So thanks for not ignoring a reader’s feedback and not blasting me for criticizing you. That would just mean that you are completely intolerant of criticism and dissent. It is good to know that you take criticism on the chin as long as it is worded at least somewhat respectfully and intened as a suggestion to improve and influence the quality of your posts.
    And that’s my argument. .. If you word your arguments respectfully and eloquently (and you are eloquent indeed) instead of trying to malign/attack your interlocutor, you will win greater respect from your audience and win greater number of people over to your argument.

  54. alok

    Posted by Kamran Abbasi at 7:29 AM in Ethics and morality

    This is the end

    Today’s attack on Sri Lanka’s cricketers is a despicable act, a coward’s agenda. Nobody should lose their life over a game of cricket, and no sportsman, official, or spectator should be injured in pursuit of the game they love.

    The sole purpose of this barbaric act is a craving for the oxygen of publicity. There can be little political or strategic mileage to be gained by an attack on sportsmen. Indeed, we can only hope that such mindless violence will deeply damage the cause of the perpetrators, and precipitate their rapid downfall.

    Brave Sri Lanka did not deserve this insult, and all sympathies are with their players and the officials who have been injured. Questions will inevitably be asked about the security arrangements, despite the regrettable deaths of several policemen. How could such a high profile tour have been allowed to have been ruined in this way? What do Pakistani security guarantees count for?

    The least of the consequences of this disaster is that those who have advocated the continuation of international cricket in Pakistan – including me – have been proved wrong. No international team will now visit Pakistan, and the Pakistan Cricket Board should voluntarily arrange all future tours at neutral venues for the next year, may be longer.

    This the darkest day in the history of Pakistan cricket and it occurred in a pleasant suburb of Lahore, a once great city of gardens and tranquility, not far from my own family home in Pakistan.

    This is the end.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The comments section is interesting:

    http://blogs.cricinfo.com/pakspin/archives/2009/03/this_is_the_end.php#comments

  55. stuka

    yaar, why was my comment about Yasser being quoted in NYTimes not published? It is a true post..I posted the URL also.

  56. aliarqam

    It is just an opinion by an Indian May be wrong…While it is too early to assess as to who might have been responsible for the attack and why, one has to recall past instances of contacts of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) with the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM—known before 1997 as the Harkat-ul-Ansar), a member of the International Islamic Front (IIF) of Al Qaeda and the role played by the commercial ships of the LTTE in the 1990s in facilitating heroin smugglimg from the Afghanistan-Pakistan region.
    Mujahideen), the terrorist organisation of Pakistan run by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in smuggling at least two shiploads of arms and ammunition from Karachi for the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) of the Southern Philippines. In return for the LTTE’s assistance in safely carrying these items to the Southern Philippines, the HUM and the ISI gave to it an undetermined quantity of anti-aircraft guns with ammunition and surface-to-air shoulder-fired missiles. The LTTE brought these weapons into use for the first time in April 1995 when it downed two aircraft of the Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF) at Palali. Subsequently, it continued to use its anti-aircraft capability acquired from the HUM and the ISI against the SLAF effectively. It was also reported to have received replenishments of this capability in return for assisting the HUM in shipping to a port in Turkey consignments of arms and ammunition meant for the Islamic terrorists in Chechnya.
    (The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. E-mail: seventyone2@gmail.com)
    http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers31/paper3081.html

  57. aliarqam

    @Salman A. Hussain
    I absolutely agree to U

  58. Anwar

    It is a tragic event…
    And Salman, thanks for the words of wisdom…

  59. alok

    This is a fire that threatens everyone
    Let us be clear: Gaddafi Stadium is not the only place where an attack on cricket will grab headlines

    What we had all feared has finally happened. A visiting cricket team has been attacked in Pakistan. A large cricket-watching audience that was anticipating the third day’s play in the Test at Lahore has been left shocked and aghast. Everyone is hoping and praying that the players’ injuries will heal quickly.

    This is a challenging time to be invoking hope and prayer. Pakistan has been burning and suffering for a long time now. Hope in these parts was already in short supply. At a time like this, it seems non-existent.

    You can already hear all cricket boards around the world say “we told you so.” They kept saying Pakistan is not a safe country. They refused to visit. They have been proved right. The Pakistani authorities have been proved wrong. The raging fire that has consumed so much else of Pakistan’s national fabric has now singed cricket, too. No cricket lover thought the worst-case scenario would ever come to pass. But it has.

    For quite a while now, opinion leaders in Pakistan cricket have argued that terrorists do not and will not target cricket. Well, so much for that. Cricket in this part of the world has now become a victim of its own success. Whatever evil mind planned this understood that attacking cricket would be the surest way not merely to grab the headlines but also to hang on to them for several news cycles.

    In the days and weeks to follow, the usual hand-wringing and the predictably endless hemming and hawing about the perpetrators of this attack will take place. A foreign hand will be blamed. Intelligence and security failures will be condemned. Official statements will be proffered. Almost certainly we, the cricket-following public, will be left more and more confused with each passing day.

    So where do we go from here?
    An important next step is for Pakistan’s cricket authorities to accept that they are up against powerful elements well beyond the boundary and well beyond their control. Restoring Pakistan’s credibility as a cricketing host now requires some clear major development in the national political landscape and a sustained period of countrywide peace and stability. In the current circumstances, which find Pakistan politically adrift on a tense geo-political faultline, that is a very tall order. But it is not impossible.

    The other, equally critical move is for the world cricketing fraternity to stand with Pakistan against the terrorists. Let us be clear: Gaddafi Stadium is not the only place where an attack on cricket will grab headlines. This is a fire that threatens everyone, and everyone has to come together to understand it and fight it.

    Pakistan cricket has suffered other body blows before, but none has come so close to its jugular. In the immediate aftermath there are too many questions that need to be addressed but, sooner or later, the most difficult one will have to be confronted. We have to take a long and honest look at the forces and events that have led to a beloved pastime becoming transformed into a horrific platform for the perpetration of evil. We have to confront whatever ugly reality lies beneath these events and we have to conquer it.

    This is not a challenge Pakistan can deal with alone. All cricketing nations, in particular those in Pakistan’s immediate neighbourhood, need to join forces and present a united front to the terrorism that has spared no one in South Asia. Abandoning Pakistan at this moment will be the easy way out. Let us not forget that in any difficult situation the easy way out is never the right answer.

    Saad Shafqat is a writer based in Karachi

  60. aliarqam

    SRI LANKA-Sri Lankan soldiers of Army 58 Division have made a startling discovery exposing an abominable conspiracy against Sri Lankan citizens. The soldiers have found several recent photographs and video footage in a building earlier occupied by the LTTE terrorists showing certain South Indian politicians in LTTE camps in Wanni.
    According to defence sources in Puthukkudiyiruppu, these photographs and videos were discovered by the infantrymen of 6 Gemunu Watch (6GW) last afternoon (1 Mar), while engaged in clearing operations at the captured LTTE satellite communication center, in Puthukkudiyiruppu West.
    Defence.lk special correspondent in Puthukkudiyiruppu said that there were a number of photographs showing some of the South Indian politicians championing tribalism, actively participating in terrorist activities in Wanni.
    Leader of MDMK party in Tamil Nadu , Mr. Vaiko had been photographed in LTTE uniform, firing pistols with LTTE leader V. Prabhakaran, delivering brain-washing lectures to the LTTE terrorists, and having discussions with Prabhakaran.
    “There were photographs of several other South Indian politicians involved in LTTE activities including Mr. Nadumaran”, he said.
    Meanwhile an analyst speaking to defence.lk, expressed his surprise at the shameless relationship, these South Indian politicians have with the convicted murderer of former Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Ghandhi.
    ” Prabhakaran has called Mr.Vaiko as the person who would link Tamil Eelam to Tamil Nadu one day…these photographs reveal that the plans for a greater Tamil Eeelam had been already on the way” , the analyst said.
    The analyst further said that Mr. Vaiko’s ceaseless attempt to save the LTTE from a military defeat might have reasons other than his so-called interest in the Sri Lankan Tamils.
    “Perhaps, he is afraid of the dark truths that would surface with the end of the LTTE”, he added.
    Meanwhile, an LTTE attempt to launch a national TV station for its utopian state of Tamil Eelam has been exposed by a video tape found at the captured satellite communication centre.
    According to our correspondent, the video tape contains a trailer created for the “National Television of Tamil Eelam” with news segments produced in Tamil, Sinhala and English languages. The news segments had been produced similar to the news telecast of Sri Lanka Rupavahini Corporation.
    “When watching the news segments produced by the LTTE, it is clear that their intention was to reduce public support in the South to counter the terrorist move”
    ” They had been copying the news segments produced by embedded media teams of government and private TV channels and tried to counter them with false news segments produced by the LTTE propagandists”, defence.lk correspondent said.
    “There were many leading news items based on comments made by treacherous politicians in the South to belittle the commitment of the war heroes, aimed at character assassination of the President, Secretary Defence and the chiefs of the Armed Force, etc…it seems that the LTTE leadership like some politicians in the South, has been desperate over the public support enjoyed by the government”
    Meanwhile, a senior member of an embedded media team inspected the captured satellite equipment and said that the LTTE was planning to transmit its programs via satellites. He said that the items were donated by Norway to the LTTE during the UNP government in 2002. According to him, the satellite station that the LTTE had here was similar to the national earth stations at Piduruthalagala and Padukka.defence.lk

  61. yasmeen

    Gautam Kapur

    HUM PE YEH KISNE HARA RANG DALA ,,,KHUSHI KO HAMARI MAAR DAALA…… madhuri dixit in DEVDAS
    one day pakistan had to reap what it HAS BEEN sowING since 1989.
    you pakistan have been misusing your religion since long– in training your soldiers,in governance,not realizing that you were toxifying your religion
    i cried 8 times in 48 hours during mumbai attacks , your jihadi group attacked my lovely city bombay and we were not able to do anything , why—— because the sher bahadurs have the nukes ,,we cannot attack them . Seems like god takes HIS own revenge apne aap
    i pray that this attack would have been sponsored by R&AW because we indians (even left wing walas)are thirsting for revenge. RAW should conduct more and more such attacks in karachi faisalabad ,on march 12 ,everywherE.INDIA SHOULD PUNISH YOU LIKE NEVER BEFORE. and yaseer latih, even i have read the collected works of gandhi and the speeches of jinnah(and for that matter of jefferson et al). I dont boast about it as you do and dont badmouth other religions(as you badmouth hindus and pandits in your posts).JAATE JAATE ,may pakistan become the new afghanistan and may march 12 be your dooms day. laugh aloud….

    its a very ruthless and hurting way to comment on such a tragic event when all pakistani nation is lamenting on it.

  62. alok

    Posted by Kamran Abbasi

    Today’s attack on Sri Lanka’s cricketers is a despicable act, a coward’s agenda. Nobody should lose their life over a game of cricket, and no sportsman, official, or spectator should be injured in pursuit of the game they love.

    The sole purpose of this barbaric act is a craving for the oxygen of publicity. There can be little political or strategic mileage to be gained by an attack on sportsmen. Indeed, we can only hope that such mindless violence will deeply damage the cause of the perpetrators, and precipitate their rapid downfall.

    Brave Sri Lanka did not deserve this insult, and all sympathies are with their players and the officials who have been injured. Questions will inevitably be asked about the security arrangements, despite the regrettable deaths of several policemen. How could such a high profile tour have been allowed to have been ruined in this way? What do Pakistani security guarantees count for?

    The least of the consequences of this disaster is that those who have advocated the continuation of international cricket in Pakistan – including me – have been proved wrong. No international team will now visit Pakistan, and the Pakistan Cricket Board should voluntarily arrange all future tours at neutral venues for the next year, may be longer.

    This the darkest day in the history of Pakistan cricket and it occurred in a pleasant suburb of Lahore, a once great city of gardens and tranquility, not far from my own family home in Pakistan.

    This is the end.

  63. aliarqam

    LTTE can be linked to Both India And Pakistani Mujahideen Also….

  64. simply61

    I agree with Yasmeen that Gautam’s comment is insensitive and unnecessary at a time like this.

  65. Indian

    Don’t lose hope Pakis..

    You can soon have the Jihadi Triangular at home, with the Taliban XI, ISI XI and LeT XI. But then there is always the problem of match fixing..

  66. Salman A. Hussain

    @ Indian.

    The winner of the Pakistani triangular cup can then play the winner of the militant cup of India. May be RSS would win, may be Nexalites, or may be one of the other dozens of insurgent teams that you have in your country some of whom are just plain old fascists while others are the result of your brutal and oppressive state apparatus. Each and every minority in your country has one or many insurgencies of their own. Why? because of how the state and some segments of the society treat the “other” with utmost disrespect and brute force. Gujrat’s Muslims, Orissa’s Christians, Punjab’s Sikhs, Bangali immigrants, Assam’s peasants, and the 140 M untouchables.

    “See the Log in Your Own Eye Before Seeing the Speck in Your Neighbor’s Eye”

  67. Indian

    @ Salman A. Hussain

    The thing is, most of the minor and major Indian insurgencies despise each other. Try to get the Naxalites to play with the RSS for instance. On the other hand, the jihadi triangular will be an exciting contest between old friends. It will be more fun to watch.

    Don’t give me this rubbish about brutal indian state apparatus alright ? now why don’t you get back to watching Zaid Hamid.

  68. Indian

    and Salman,

    while it is true that religious minorities are discriminated against in certain pockets of the country, India is still a largely tolerant and cohesive society. We do not behead infidels, or cede large portions of our country to people who do.

    You can continue to cry foul about the ‘rampant’ religious persecution in India – if muslim presidents, actors, businessmen, oscar winners, cricket captains and poets can’t convince you, then boo hoo.

  69. Salman A. Hussain

    Zaid Hamid is a joke.
    Insurgencies in India and heavy-handed approach of Indian state apparatus is a fact documented by well-respected international sources. I don’t think that you should feel that India is an exceptionally brutal state. Pakistan has taken brutal actions against its own population as well (Balochistan, Bangal, Waziristan etc.) As far as the unlikeliness of a coalition between RSS and Nexalites is concerned, well that is based on real-politik. When real-politik dictates, strange alliances co-operations have emerged. But I guess I can concede the point to you that terrorism inside India is a lot more diverse than in Pakistan. I am not sure it is something to boast about though.

  70. Salman A. Hussain

    I agree that by and large India is a tolerant society. I am not generalizing about Indian society. Critique of state apparatus is something I have common with Indian left. Pakistanis need to scrutinize their leaders intensely as the Indian left scrutinizes Indian leaders and state. You might be surprised to hear that not every Pakistani wants to slaughter infidels. But I guess that’s what the RSS propaganda instills in you.

  71. Krishnan

    Hope this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back and the Pakistani people rise up against these fundamentalists who are out to destroy their nation. My condolences to the families of the security personnel killed in this cowardly act and hope that peace wins out in the end. At this time i think the world or atleast the cricket playing portion of the world can support the Pakistani people by holding a 1 day match between a World XI and Pakistan XI in Lahore. Maybe foolishly to hope for such a match but we cannot let these cowards dictate how to live our lives.

  72. Indian

    More diversification = less risk

    At times like this, a nation needs to look inward – not across the border to find solace in the delusion that their neighbour has internal security problems too. They don’t.

    I am trying hard to feel sorry for you guys, but your total refusal to take responsibility for your own problems is making it impossible.

  73. Indian

    @ Salman

    Yes, I know most pakistanis don’t want to behead infidels. The RSS doesn’t really tell us that, no – it is too busy upholding ‘indian culture’ to do that stuff. You seem to give the RSS/VHP too much credit. They are still just a small outfit (compared to the size of the country), which are exceptionally loud and occasionally/often violent. And every indian is not a urine drinking dark ugly hindu, but i guess thats what the ISI ideology instills in you.

    It is interesting to see your opinion of the Indian left. With the exception of providing the country with some remarkable individual politicians, it has done very little for the country. More recently, they have turned into a highly ideological, america and capitalism hating, china loving circus.

  74. Salman A. Hussain

    More diversification = less risk is true when diversification is on the same turf and around the same issue.
    I don’t think the best approach to remove crime is to diversify the manifestations of the crime. So if one wanted to stop smuggling, it would make it very difficult if one had to fight twelve different kinds of smuggling businesses, each kind of smuggling with dozens of different smuggling outfits.
    “At times like this, a nation needs to look inward – not across the border ”
    Thanks. I agree whole-heartedly. This is the same advice I would offer you. This is the same advice India’s leftist intellectuals gave their countrymen but I guess you must not like writers like Arundhati Roy. Pakistan needs to do the same and be self-critical. “Left” is usually right or at least right in being critical of its own society and state.

  75. Indian

    Why was I expecting to hear about Arundhati Roy? She is an extremely articulate and eloquent waste of time.

  76. Salman A. Hussain

    Good to know that you think that most Pakistanis don’t want to behead infidels 🙂
    You’d be glad to know that I don’t think most Indians drink their Urine. Roughly 15% of Pakistanis are descendents of Indian immigrants and I am one of them.

    You see, common ground can be found if we aren’t scornful to one another. Overseas Pakistanis and Indians live peacefully with each other. Media proliferation is putting many Pakistanis and Indians in touch with each other. A war between the two countries will wipe out most of the South Asia. At that point it doesn’t matter who won and who lost. It would be much better if we stop looking at each other as the manifestation and representation of a State or a government (Indian or Pakistani). Our states are our representations (albeit bad representations) and not the other way around. The key is RESPECT, if we were to co-exist with each other. Your initial comments were at minimum insensitive. Not the right thing to do.

  77. Indian

    I have no issues with Pakistanis. My first boss was a Pakistani (who was responsible for my getting an excellent bonus, before it all went wrong).

    Of course I don’t want war, but this constant, low intensity proxy war that India has been the target of, is extremely infuriating. I hope that the Pakistani state will come to terms with its own history of working with these lunatic groups, and now try to find the best solution going foward

    good night

  78. Milind

    This is a sad day for every person who loves cricket and loves peace. These assholes have attacked everything that is dear to a decent south Asian.

    Now what can we do to them? Unless Pakistani establishment declares an all out war ,this is not going to stop. You need war to achieve peace. Deals like the one in SWAT, will only make these animals more blood thirsty. The message to them should be loud and clear. Any half hearted attempt will be useless. And India should support Pakistan in there moment of crisis.Let us decide that we want to live together and succeed together.
    We are brothers and should behave like one.
    And lets keep the stupid human rights activists away from this war.
    This is just wishful thinking on my side and I know that nothing like this will happen.

  79. stuka

    “I have no issues with Pakistanis. My first boss was a Pakistani (who was responsible for my getting an excellent bonus, before it all went wrong).”

    Dude, if you work on Wall St and Salman is let’s say..an engineer, then at this point I despise you more than I do a Pakistani Salman, though you might be a fellow Indian. (And I despise your Pakistani boss as well)

  80. Shahzad Nazir Khan

    YLH, First of all, I want to salute to your courage as you write truth in a country that never allows you to read, write and even speak truth. How misfortune we are that still after getting independence as a country, we dont have a nation in it. I also want to say an appreciation word as u wrote against all these inhuman and insane acts of “Janoon Group”…. Please civil society (The actual one, (not that is being paid by someone as we saw their pictures in newspapers) to get themselves out from their homes and rather then starting a Long March frm Lahore to Islamabad, start it from Lahore to Mangora, Sawat… Why every step of Punjab ( Not mean in sense of ordinary Punjabi, talking about Punjabi beauracracy and civil/military establishment) goes towards Islamabad ? Why always Punjab thought to get power? Why always Punjab not think like an elder brother? I think now it’s time to re-think, re-unite and re-arrange about our values and norms. Every sensitive and sensible Pakistani is so much stressed, so much concerened about whats going on in Pakistan… Please be togather to save our country from becoming it a Mulla State…

    ” YEAH DAGH DAGH UJALA
    YEH SHAB-GUZEEDA SAHAR
    WOH INTEZAR THA JISKA
    YEAH WOH SAHAR TU NAHIN…..”

  81. Indian

    @stuka – not on wallstreet, but in the Square Mile in London. Taxpayer Schmaxpayer….

  82. Milind Kher

    Milind,

    You share my name apparently, but your philosophy is different.

    The Pakistani Government declaring all out war on the terrorists and Taliban is easier said than done. For the government to be strong, the democratic process also needs to be strong. That cannot happen if things like excluding the Sharifs from election happen.

    Yes, I am all for India and Pakistan cooperating against the terrorists. But for that, the whole Indian nation also has to think as one without different forces pulling in different directions.

  83. i’m a sri lankan. i’m so sad about my cricket team.there is a great friend ship between pakistan and sri lanka. so i want to say ‘it’s okay’ to pakistan people. vr the friends 2 the end

  84. aliarqam

    My Mom Said….When someone dies,most of the visiting People share the sorrow with them.Visiting women cry with the relatives…..what make them Cry…they remember their own loved ones and feel the pain they would have,If such incident had happened to them…
    I think these illiterate women are more wiser than people here sharing their own set of philosophies and prejudices…..

  85. simply61

    I think the Indians (especially the type that crow about Pakistani state’s failures/problems) need to stop visiting such blogs or atleast stop commenting.Even an elementary understanding of psychology should tell you that telling someone”I told you so”,is the best way to ensure that they react by defending or arguing along old, hackneyed lines.
    YLH’s small but very honest post(although his comments make me flinch) has again ended up with Indian and Pakistani readers exchanging old cliches about “RSS,Taliban,Army,Hindu-Muslim,urine drinking,beheading infidels”.Even a very sane voice like Salman has ended up answering “Indian”‘s comments.
    Does anyone remember what YLH’s post was about?? Let voices like his be heard and not drowned out by immature drivel from both sides.

  86. i think you are right

  87. i’m happy to say that we have great friends

  88. Milind Kher

    Simply 61,

    As I have said before, this is the time for bonding and not mutual recrimination. Yes, YLH has most certainly put up a very sober post.

    I would like to put on record that I appreciate the attitude that the Pakistani bloggers at PTH show. We like to participate because we are all part of a larger South Asian (as Milind and Ali Arqam say) picture.

    So, let us work in that spirit.

  89. hayyer48

    Indian: Yes, India is by and large a tolerant society that does not behead unbelievers; except when it burns Christian priests alive as in Orissa, or Sikhs in Delhi, or Muslims in Gujarat, or condones the numerous acts of violence by the police or other agencies against minorities.

  90. Siddistani

    I am Indian.

    I believe in times of conflict, more than a “nation” in danger, it is a section of society across national lines that’s endangered. Moderates in Israel and Palestine lost their voices after the 22-day blitzkreig, and moderates in India were scorned after Mumbai. I was in Colaba when the attacks happened, was in front of Leo’s when they shot the place up, and people find it impossible to believe I suggested we help Pakistan as the best way forward. Not because I love Pakistan, but simply because I believe that in an embattled state, which Pakistan is, the sensible voices shall be stifled more and more with every shock. Even as a pragmatist, I feel we need to pool our resources, and fight a common threat: radicalization in both our nations. While Hindu terrorists are still something of a joke, it may not be so forever. We Indians have our own dangerous radicals, let’s not sneer at our Pakistani counterparts, we might need their help soon.

  91. simply61

    Milind Kher,that very spirit is what gets threatened when unnecessary posturing is done by either side…..
    As Indian visitors to this blog I think we carry the larger responsibilty of maintaining that spirit.

  92. Siddistani

    hayyer48, this is a common exchange. While India is hardly secular in application, we have a lot to mess up before we deteriorate into NWFP status. And you shouldn’t need to come from a brilliant democracy with shiny credentials to criticize the state of affairs somewhere. The “set your house in order, then talk to us” argument is pathetic. I will condemn Modi, and I will also call the Taliban mullahs fanatic freaks. Criticism should not be dimmed by the failings of the deliverer, but judged in its own light.

  93. Pingback: Pakistan:the road ahead « Simply61’s Blog

  94. Milind Kher

    Simply 61,

    I appreciate what you are saying. Yes, we surely need to work in a very positive mode so that there is a meeting of minds.

  95. hayyer48

    This is after all a Pakistani blog. Indians should not dominate the discussion on what is after all Pakistani tragedy. Our concerns about our problems are ours. For the moment let us leave Pakistanis to theirs.

  96. Hisbuff

    This is my first time on this blog; I saw it on the New york Times and decided to look see.

    My sympathies go to the people of Lahore and the families of the slain policemen.

    I am afraid that for an intelligent person, Mr. Hamdani (YLH) behaved boorishly towards some of the Indian readers. He could just have said that they misunderstood him. But he went out of his way to use insulting language. It diminished only him.

  97. aloks

    milind kher stop producing so much bonhomie…its sucks!!!

  98. Indian

    @ aloks – hear hear

  99. Milind Kher

    Alok,

    I believe in saying what I feel like.

    Truly don’t believe in others regulating me.

    Of course, I respect your right to say the bonhomie sucks 🙂

    Chill.

  100. aloks

    Milind i cannot regulate you, even if i wish 2 😉

    couple of points:
    1. do not underscore the hostility of the general public towards each other: Indian middle class/intelligentsia feels extreme anger and hatred towards pakistan and pakistanis in general especially after the mumbai attack( i do not know about the reciprocity across the border, i can only speak fr India)

    2. pakistan’s action of fomenting terrorism for alst 2 decades as a proxy war was really not a rosy situation and the onus of that ‘cardinal sin’ lies squarely and entirely on pakistan.And after the backstabbing that vajpayee got after the lahore visist in terms of Kargil, your bonhomies seems impractical and unpragmatic

    3. India may have lot of internal troubles but they do not affect pakistan, the reverse sadly is not true. why its more urgent for pakistan to swallow its pride and get its house in order is bcos situatiuon like mumbai/lahore then can be avoided

    4. To tell you the harsh truth, Indian interests in pakistan is more out of worry about the nuclear weapons than anything. Indian psyche has long been de-hyphenated from pakistan. You may have your own reasons (religion, birth place, nostalgia) but it will be wrong on your part to assume veryone(common people in India) aspire for such friendhip and bonhomie and i think rightly so.

    Please take my comments in a correct perspective, its not meant to give personal affront to anyone.

  101. Milind Kher

    aloks,

    The Mumbai terrorist attacks were thoroughly condemnable. No punishment given to the surviving terrorist can be too severe. HOWEVER, this does not mean that Pakistanis on the whole have supported or even approved this.

    Fomenting terror has been done by some self serving politicians. Here, the Pakistani public will need to ensure that politicians are more accountable.

    If you see on this blog, many people have honestly admitted that they need to get their house in order. THAT is where the “bonhomie” comes in- showing them that we believe in them.

    Nobody in India needs to aspire for friendship if they believe that it is not needed.But we at least need to defuse the tension, so that both sides breathe easier.

  102. YLH

    Milind Kher buddy hold that thought…because I have a personal story to tell on this issue of bonhomie and friendship but I have some work I am caught up in.

    The irony is that we as individuals feel compelled to think as a mob…which is why I atleast have decided to foresaken nationalism in the negative sense …

  103. YLH

    Foresake not foresaken.

  104. aloks

    milind,

    answer the fundamental question?

    the average pakistani citizen was aware about the jihadi and terrorist strategy that the state was following( bleed through thousand cuts)

    they were not only ok through this but people have heavily contributed to the cause of jihad through donations, jihad slogans were everywhere in cmapuses, their donation boxes could be found evrywhere and anywhere before musharraf clamped down under international pressure.

    Its only now when it starts to haunt them that they are raising hue and cry, otherwise they would always be aggreable to ‘utilize any means’ to get kashmir and affect india.

  105. Milind Kher

    aloks,

    India too has very vociferous Hindutva groups from which many Pakistanis draw a conclusion on Hindus as a whole. However, we know that it is inaccurate

    This applies to the way “jihadis” are seen in India.
    This is my take on it. You may believe differently

  106. aloks

    no there is a difference between hindutva groups and Jihad. pls be very clear neither the RSS nor VHP/bajrang etc. foment terrorism cross border. i do not think the Indian state allows them that folly.

    Their threat is merely rhetorical (except the samjhauta express again which belongs to afringe groupvery much like SIMI, Indian mujaheedin which anyway are doing things in India whether against majority or minority)

    Abhinav bharat,SIMI,Indian Mujahideen operate as fringe groups WITHOUT govt. support or public sympathy…..not in case of LET,JEM , Taliban etc….

  107. Indian

    One is reminded by that simple sanskrit proverb

    ” yatha karma tatha phalam”

    as you sow, sow shall you reap

  108. Indian

    One is reminded of that simple sanskrit proverb

    ” yatha karma tatha phalam”

    as you sow, sow shall you reap

  109. Indian

    apologies for the double post

  110. I was shocked to notice attack was on sportsmen (especially cricketers) and on lankans (not indians/westerners..). and another surprise it was in lahore, which i was told one of most liberal, poetic and beautiful cities.

    terrorism in pakistan has now moved to far more dangerous levels. its testing times for countries thinking-tank, govt, army,..

  111. sall0

    Faliure of Security:

    I feel very sad for the poor police men and their families who lost their lives. I hope government should suspend CCPO, PCB Chairman and IG Punjab Police. Don’t understand there is more security for a normal MNA / MPA and even for IG police but only few ordinary police men without enough automatic weapons for the guest teams. It is Punjab Government responsible for unable to protect our guests. Despite all the stories told here, I would call it a success, failure of terrorist operation, same time as the amount of weapons recovered shows the potential huge damage could have been inflicted.

    Two birds in one shot? Excellent work!!!

    It is going to be very hard to repair the damage for Pakistan but congratulations to Indian Government, who get the most out of it, on their Diplomatic success in cricket as well. Good timing for the attack, just few weeks from the elections poll as well as response to SL Government for their successful operations against Tamil Tigers? How India’s ruling party going to cure this damage, Tamils Tigers defeat by SL Army, and keep over 80 millions Tamils calm and count on their vote bank, in the south, in upcoming elections? Do you still think its Islamic Militants? How about India fighting its War with Sri Lanka in Pakistan?

    The MAZE:

    Please help yourself and look at the bigger picture and don’t FORGET why in the whole Mumbai Specifically only ATS head ‘Hemant Kurkure’, prime investigator for the Samjhauta Express, which killed dozens, got killed in Mumbai Attack? Is it still Islamic Militants? Now don’t tell it was not done by Active Indian Army Colonel.

    I can see small number of positive reviews from the open minded Indians who do respect and believe in mutual progress(thanks), but same time there are larger number of bloggers who are still unable to accept the existence of Pakistan and dream about “AKHAND BHARAT”.

  112. Indian

    @ Sallo , and the other half-wit conspiracy theorists.

    A few clarifications

    1. Please don’t flatter yourselves by thinking that Pakistan is a major election issue in India. Like you, the BJP thought it was, and tried hard to milk 26/11 at the polls. We all saw what happened.

    2. It’s Hemant Karkare, and the active army colonel you talk about is in jail. Are you accusing him or his masters of plotting 26/11? Just spell it out if you want to. It will only make you look like a proper idiot.

    3. Read about India’s relationship with the Sri Lankan Tamils and the Lankan Govt, and then come back to have a mature conversation.

  113. Salman A. Hussain

    @simply 61

    “Salman has ended up answering “Indian”’s comments.”

    I know I slipped. After lecturing YLH about the virtues of self-restraint and ignoring ignorant, apathetic, and confrontational comments, I fell in the same trap and allowed myself to be agitated and aggravated. Self-restraint is an art that needs constant attention and training. Point taken.

    Thanks.

  114. simply61

    @Salman A. Hussain

    Salman this happens all the time on this site.No matter how hard one tries one ends up getting sucked into replying to comments and then the comment section takes on a life of its own,entirely unrelated to the post. 🙂
    But still this site is engaging and worth exercising self restraint for.Look fwd to reading more of your comments.

  115. sall0

    @Indian,

    who looks proper idiot by giving clarifictions?
    put few more please!

  116. Indian

    @sallo

    never mind..why dont you get back to watching bollywood movies on pirated dvds?

  117. Milind Kher

    Aloks,

    The VHP/Bajrang Dal/RSS etc are simply not in a position to foment cross border terrorism.

    The combined might of these organizations in Mumbai could not produce even 1 person who could think of taking on the 10 terrorists who attacked Mumbai.

    They are better at attacking unarmed priests after vastly outnumbering them.

  118. lal

    Sallo
    can u give me one reason now any Indian wants an ‘akhand bharath’.Atleast when i used to hear this idea in the 90s,i will think of a cricket team with sachin,azhar,wasim and waqar.If anybody in India even remotely thinks now of having an akhand bharath he shud be put in a mental hospital.

  119. Surfer

    Salman A. Hussain, excellent posts. Just one disagreement: You are not immigrants. Two weeks before or two weeks after partition, you moved from one area to another which used to be within the same country; you did not arrive from Ukraine.

    nayani, many thanks.

  120. Indian

    Yeah, ‘khand’ bharat is good enough for us. At least Pakistan serves as a good buffer state against the bigger nutjobs on the western front.

  121. Salman A. Hussain

    Good point Surfer. Here are my thoughts on your point:

    Before 1947 India, Sudan, East Asia, and most of Middle East were parts of the same Empire. Since these colonies were administered by the same administration ruled by the Anglo-Saxon law, moving from Khartoum to Bangalore shouldn’t be considered immigration according to your definition?

    Most of migration (including my family) occurred post 14th August 1947, hence it was immigration from one nation state to another or one country to another (according to your definition).

    I agree that through periods of history Hindustan has been one country (thrice to be exact). Bharat (State of India) is a day younger than Pakistan. Hindustan is the common historic entity that you refer to which existed as a unified entity once some two millennia ago, and then under Mughals for over a century, and it ceased to be after the collapse of Mughals and became British India.

    Mughal Empire had started to decline in 18th century which resulted in many smaller power centers within “Al-Hind” aka Hindustan aka Asian Subcontinent. During that period migrating from one area controlled by one regional power to another was by definition “immigration”. Same logic applies to the collapse of British Empire when the emergence of two regional Hindustani powers was imminent.

    Immigration is a concept associated with moving from one nation state to another. Nation state is the definition of country. The lack of a state for the Palestinian nation is the reason that Palestine is not a country.

    By the way, by making this argument I am not shunning aside the fact that Pakistanis, Indians, and Bangladeshis have historic, cultural, and social linkages (Indic peoples/ Peoples of the Indus Civilization). This is me addressing either your underlying denial of Pakistani national and cultural identity or your ahistorical lumping of all South Asians in one bucket (“they all look the same” argument). Pakistanis and Indians, in my opinion, can come to terms only if we build on our commonalities without suppressing our differences. Muslims don’t have to stop being Muslims to co-exist with Hindus or their genealogically senior sibling faith Christianity, and Pakistanis don’t have to stop being Pakistanis to break bread with Indians and vice versa.

  122. yasserlatifhamdani

    Mardi Gras on PakTeaHouse: Indians gone wild Part XXXIV

  123. Sciend04

    Like many Indians, I do feel sorry for the tragedy that unfolded in Lahore this week.

    Equally tragic is the fact that a well meaning blog of introspection by a well meaning Pakistani has been hijacked by untimely comments of some unwelcome Indians. We Indians must remember that if we want a safer neighborhood, then we must build the bridges to meet these very same “well meaning Pakistanis”. They are all that you get to work with. So wake up and smell some coffee and stop being stupid.

    It is also important for people like YLH to raise / discuss these issues so that the Pakistanis can debate amongst themselves and come to logical conclusions. It is rather sad to see these reasonable Pakistani voices being drowned either by extremism in their own country, or by these intrusive Indian voices as seen on this site.

    None of the above is meant in anyway to take away the impact of the tragedies inflicted on India or the stupidity shown by other Pakistani readers in this site. “stupid is stupid” regardless of whether one is Indian or Pakistani. We must focus on resolving issues and not perpetuate historical errors that have occurred in our relationship – neither add fuel to the fire, nor be insensitive in this hour of tragedy.

    Indeed, we must also have the wisdom, and be aware, that Lahore is not just a Pakistani tragedy. It is a tragedy for the game and for the sub-continent. So when you pay your taxes in India, you also have to pay that incremental tax for the security required at the IPL games – because you cannot be sure that (for example) the 12 who escaped this week, will not come knocking at Chepauk or FSK stadiums. If you feel smug now, you may rue later. Your sense of glee now, will be as spent as sex in that scenario. This is an exchange that needs to stop. This is an opportunity to build that bridge with the likes of YLH.

    To the Pakistani readers: I am sorry to have added to the “Indian” noise on this board.

    To YLH – Salman is right. Ignore the noise, please and it will go away. Remember: you have larger things to accomplish.

    Sciend’04

  124. Salman A. Hussain

    Admin,
    Dissent = “Awaiting moderation” ?
    What’s the moderation policy?

  125. Salman A. Hussain

    My comments in the “RAW” story are awaiting moderation. Is moderation story-based/Individual-based or comment-based?

  126. aloks

    Milind your lack of understanding and jingoism in getting bonhomie with pakistan is really stupid at best.

    we all know what VHP/bajrang and RSS do; looks like you conveniently forget SIMI and Indian Mujahideen(perhaps they are not terrorist?-freedom fighters-eh?). oh perhaps they were fighting alongside indian commandos in taj. forgot that!!!

    Since you have so much grievances why dont you call upon your pakistani friends(LET,JEM,Taliban) to deal with them.

  127. Milind Kher

    aloks,

    Sorry to disappoint you. I can’t stand the LeT, JeM or the Taliban. I do not at all like either their methods or ideology.

    Do you really think one has to be either with the Bajrang Dal or Taliban?

    There are 99 numbers between 0 and 100!!

  128. aloks

    yes one should be neither bajrang dal nor taliban

    yet one should not do the folly to equate them either!!!

  129. Milind Kher

    aloks,

    Leave the bonhomie bit out. Look at it practically. If Pakistan and India forged a good bond, and could jointly act against the terrorists, would that not achieve a lot?

    I am not asking you to love the Pakistanis, just learn to live with them. It’s really not a big deal.
    You know it too 🙂

  130. Indian

    Milind dude,

    Firstly apologies to the Pakistanis on this blog for hijacking it, but my comments are from the heart. PLEASE HEED…esp the Kashmir / development bits!

    Back to Milind,

    ‘Learn to live with Pakistan’???…..HOW I WISH

    i am SURE I speak for the VAST majority of Indians… i DO NOT CARE about Pakistan…AT ALL…. how i wish they would LEAVE US IN PEACE…. I do not mind them gazing at our actresses’ skin or dancing to our music….I am vaguely aware that staring at burqas is not pleasing and I will not grudge them this joy… I loved watching Wasim/Waqar as much as a Hadlee or a Donald…. i cheered their team against the aussies…. but THAT’S ABOUT IT

    We have tech companies and space programs to get on with, partying and kamasutra to tend to along with the special grass that grows all over… we are shy enough socially with our girls that it takes us longer than the western average to get into their pants…..I have to hang out of the mumbai local train, have nehari with my muslim best friend and spend Christmas with his wife’s catholic family, whilst cheering zaheer, ishanth and bhajji destroy other batting line-ups…. I have to despair at our rapist / murderer politicians and at the corruption that causes so much grief to so many poor…. we Indians don’t need Pakistan to kill each other over religion, water, festivals, women in pubs, money, property, business, etc. etc….. we are doing that fine on our own…. its our problem, no one else’s

    therefore, WHO on earth (or in india anyway) is interested in ANYTHING to distract us from our hectic schedules? And Pakistan as a distraction is laughable. Pk just does NOT FIGURE.

    India has HUGE problems, but my Pakistani friends, they are OUR problems. Let us deal with them.

    UNFORTUNATELY, Pakistan does not leave us alone. My dad has been in the vicinity of the Mumbai troubles each of the last 3 attacks. Yet you Pakis took weeks to admit that the attackers MAY be from Pakistan. Tiger Menon and Dawood live with IMPUNITY in Karachi, are the ‘concerned’ Pakistanis on this blog bothered? Even your ‘hero’ bus driver who ‘saved’ the SL cricket team said on live TV that he thought this was an Indian attack in Lahore!!…AND that his brother had been killed as a kashmiri mujahidin…. My dear Pakistani friends, you are NOT moderate, you ARE the problem….India’s problem alas… If ANY ONE of you agrees with the rest of this blog, then I will admit that you are indeed moderate, but probably no such luck.

    RIGHT, the biggest 2 problems, inter-linked of course are KASHMIR and the PAKISTANI ARMY.

    The Pakistani moderates here might realize that the biggest problem in pakistan is the strength of the army and that it is a law unto itself. It controls the economy, controls land, and uses the threat of India to perpetuate its presence and hegemony over power. Because it is too weak to attack India outright, it has ACTIVELY encouraged and financed its jihadist proxies in Kashmir/Afghan, turned the ISI into a monster and tried for 2 decades to inflict the death by thousand cuts’ treatment. It has STIFLED democracy and civil society in pakistan for its own military and financial benefit….the generals ran the cricket board for pete’s sake!!!!

    That some of these jihadi elements are now attacking the hand that feeds them is a mere sideshow that will be resolved over time. The real intentions remains the enimity with India and the omnipotence of the Pakistani Army….The Taliban have publicly stated their intention to fight India alongside the Pak army shoudl the need arise, so lets be clear who are friends and who are not.

    KASHMIR – how many ‘moderates’ here are willing to give up the Pak position on Kashmir and re-draw the LOC as the new peaceful boundary? India is not asking for Gilgil/Baltistan back. We are pragmatic enough to concede them to you given the course of history. But Pak’s obsession with Kashmir IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM. This obsession created the jihadists when 3 wars/defeats did not work….agreed?

    The ending of this obsession will end the fight with India, enable business and commercial ties to flourish and END THE NEED FOR THE PAK ARMY TO SWALLOW THE ENTIRE BUDGET. If the civilian economy in Pak improves, jobs will be available and Pak can modernize. The frustrations that feed the jihadis can be reduced. Agreed?

    ON THE KASHMIR ISSUE ITSELF, what gives you dudes the impression that you will get the valley or are ‘entitled’ to it?
    Is it how you have dealt with SWAT?
    Or is it religion that is the basis, a la Bangladesh? Pakistan today is a joke, less a state. I would wonder how many Kashmiris would want to accede to you?? hmmm…bombs/burqas/no music/movies/no tourists/floggings….by golly, can’t wait to join up…where do i sign??

    Think about it. Try hanging on to Fata and Baloch first.
    Dudes, Nehru was a Kashmiri.
    So since religion is not the dividing line, what is?
    Lastly, how many of you are still deluded that you will wrest territory away from a neighbour 10 times your size and 20 times your economy? In 20 years, we will be 40 times your economy….(all approximations..apologies)….. WHAT GIVES?

    Its like India insisting on ‘the right of self-determination’ of the Tibetans and trying to set off bombs in Chinese cities. We would never win. EVER…..even if the Chinese are stupid enough never to attack us because we have THE BOMB…..Can you understand and accept this?

    Much like the Drones bombing you at will…..you can’t afford/manufacture binoculars to watch them overhead…..some perspective PLEASE

    LET’S END KASHMIR AND DIVIDE ALONG LOC. Then let’s normalize relations. The Pak army will lose its relevance. Pak will get more money into its civilian economy and create jobs and prosperity for its people. THAT IS WHAT NATIONS ARE FOR.
    Since 1990 when the Kashmir trouble began, 19 years have seen Pak broke and at the IMF’s door trying to bleed India….give it up guys

    If we get past Kashmir, it’s THE END of our troubles … you deal with your problems and leave us to our IT companies, riots, NRI doctors, potholed roads, cow urine, prawns chettinad and sikh prime minister IN PEACE…..we DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU but you force us through Kashmir and related incidents like Mumbai….

    we may make jokes about burqas, but we have MORE MUSLIMS THAN YOU….we also make jokes about cow urine and divine conception…. we genuinely absolutely DO NOT CARE ABOUT PAKISTAN’S MUSLIMS…. we only care about shahrukh and zaheer and rahman and abdul kalam… same as hritik, ishanth and manmohan singh….NO DIFFERENCE……ALL INDIANS..!!!!!…. and add the bozos as well, laloo, thackeray, modi and veerappan….OUR PROBLEMS…..

    PLEASE PLEASE, GET PAST KASHMIR AND LEAVE US BE…… we really REALLY do not care about Pakistan

    as you can see, Pakistanis are not my favourite ppl… its not that i dislike them…..neither do i like them….i just DON’T CARE … but this blog run by supposed ‘moderates’ was just TOO MUCH…let me find ONE person who agrees with my suggested way forward, and I will admit that you are indded that novelty…a Pakistani ‘moderate’

  131. Salman A. Hussain


    ‘Learn to live with Pakistan’???…..HOW I WISH

    i am SURE I speak for the VAST majority of Indians… i DO NOT CARE about Pakistan…AT ALL”

    I hope you don’t speak for the vast majority of Indians. How does one get to hate a whole people that much? I hope I never find myself doing that. That apathy/anger/hatred/prejudice would make my own life hell.

    A Pakistani doesn’t have to prove that he is a “moderate” or not. Your judgement of a Pakistani is more of a representation of you as a person rather than a representation of the “object” you try to “analyze” in your angry rant.

  132. Milind Kher

    Salman,

    The essence of life lies in accepting people for what they are.

    No, Pakistanis are under no pressure to “prove” themselves. We now need to evolve and mature in our way of viewing one another.

  133. ASP

    Dear Salman,
    Apologies for the way it might come across. I have been moderated off thrice already.

    I do not hate a whole people. They are simply irrelevant to my daily life an I suspect millions of indians like me who just want to get on with life. I have no feelings towards you, good or bad. Ok?

    Why don’t you address the issue that I have brought up? If we can get past Kashmir, we simply do not have to interact any more. Today we are forced to interact with hostility due to Kashmir. Let’s get past it and move on with our respective lives. I know the Indians would gladly accept this.

    And, without being pompous, I genuinely believe that Pakistan will be better off with a drastically shrunken army. Do you not agree?

    Lastly, please appreciate that I am hardly an extremist and i loathe the shiv sena and the bajrang dal as much as the taliban. However, it is the avg pakistani that can change this situation through a democratically elected government and a weaker army/ISI. And until your fundamental obsession with Kashmir GOES AWAY FOR GODD, nothing will change.

    You will also appreciate that I am sick and tired of my ppl being blown up and shot in their cities. If i had said i have outright hatred, would u be surprised? My wife was one train away from the London bombs, all Pakistanis. I challenge you to show me ONE country…just ONE….which is happy with its pakistani community or who is happy about pakistan’s existence..what is your contribution to the world? Nuclear proliferation to lovelies like North Korea, the creation of the taliban in afghanistan, sharia law, which is it??….

    Therefore if some ppl show outright hatred, tell me Sir, are you surprised?..it is YOU, the moderate pakistani who has failed…..extremists are in all societies…in india, find me a weird cause and i will find you a weirdo that supports it….but YOU Sir are the problem, for secretly and at SOME level condoning the violence / kashmir policy

  134. Indian

    still being blocked?

  135. Indian

    Right, I noticed that my previous few comments were blocked/deleted. I see that YLH is continuing to spout his venom. Fair enough, its his ‘Tea House’ after all. At least partly.

  136. Salman A. Hussain

    In case you haven’t figured out if 170+Million Pakistanis wanted to take up militancy for Kashmir, it would be a whole different world. You know what only 10 or so terrorists can do, imagine the potential impact if only 1% of the 170M were what you think they are. Anyway, I don’t intend to get into a debate with myopic ultranationalists especially about as sensitive a topic as Kashmir.

    “I challenge you to show me ONE country…just ONE….which is happy with its pakistani community or who is happy about pakistan’s existence..what is your contribution to the world? Nuclear proliferation to lovelies like North Korea, the creation of the taliban in afghanistan, sharia law, which is it??….”

    As far as I know, India is the only country that has a problem with Pakistan’s coming into being, because you see it as a theft of the Hindu motherland on the part of descendents of the “invaders”. And you claim that you are not influenced by RSS/VHP propaganda

    I would advise you to stay clear of a discussion of Sharia as a theological body of knowledge on and around which 1400 years of Muslim life was built. It is the same body of laws that was used by pluralists of the yester years to protect minorities and also subjects of the empire that could have been wiped out by the supreme armies of the day. Because you understand it just as much as your extremist counterparts – the religious extremists in Pakistan do. I know you are/may consider yourself secular, which only an example of the existence of secular extremism.

    We Pakistanis and Muslims in general have been co-existing with other civilization as the rulers as well as the subject for centuries, and are the most widespread AND diverse group of peoples. I am glad that members of Hindu civilization have and continue to increase their participation in the global community, and thus beginning to establish themselves as a global civilization. We have a 1400 year old head start as one of the oldest, if not the first, truly global civilization. This privilege also comes with the enormous baggage of history and number of conflicts in widely diverse places of the world. To the world it matters less that a Pakistani is a Pakistani, we Pakistanis are judged by what happens in Palestine, Darfur, Chechnya, and Bosnia. People in the West know a lot less about Kashmir than they do about these other places that I mentioned. And I don’t suggest that Pakistanis should start feeling sorry that the judgement is made on issues that are irrelevant to them as Pakistanis (which they are to a great extent), but I guess that’s what connects us to the rest of the global Muslim communities, to other minorities (in the countries that allegedly detest us). That’s why this global civilization attracts more members than any other. Neither does being a member of this community means that you can not hold multiple civilizational memberships.

    To explain a Pakistani’s part in a bombing as a natural outcome of the Pakistani being a Pakistani, or a Muslim being a Muslim is what essentialists like you used to subjugate, enslave, and colonize people. Biological racism justified slavery and white supremacy. Cultural racism justified colonization of “backward” and “superstitious” blackies like you and I. Keep following essentialist logics that lead to dehumanize Pakistanis. In the end this dialectic has the same effect on de-humanizer and the dehumanized. Both loose their humanity, and the demonizer more than dehumanized.
    I feel sorry for you.

  137. Salman A. Hussain

    YLH,
    If you are, and I don’t know if you are or aren’t, please don’t moderate this bigot’s hate-filled rants. Please allow him to make an a$$ of himself.

  138. Indian

    Salman, a few clarifications

    A lot of people had problems with Pakistan coming into being, for several reasons. To club them all as hindutva/right wingers is pretty naive. Gandhi, for instance, tried hard to prevent Partition. He was murdered by someone who belonged to a group that still thinks that Partition shouldn’t have happened.

    So the difference between the Hindutva fundie and most Indians today is that the latter have accepted that Pakistan was created and is now a seperate country.

    India does not have a problem with Pakistan coming into being. The earliest Indian leaders did, but they quickly moved on as nation building became a bigger priority.

  139. Salman A. Hussain

    By the way as far as contribution goes. Pakistanis make a significant chunk of the 7 million Muslim Americans. The only group that is more prosperous that Muslim Americans are Jewish Americans. There is no group in America that has more diversity and more gender equality in terms of incomes earned, than Muslim Americans.
    Look up Gallup’s latest report released this March 2/3, 2009

  140. Salman A. Hussain

    So, have you answered your own question then?

    If India has accepted Pakistan’s existence, then India is one country doesn’t object to or have come to terms with pakistan’s existence. I doubt it but that’s what I would like very much to believe. You can’t be both unhappy with Pakistan’s existence and be Ok that it came into being. If you have achieved the daunting intellectual and moral feat of being unhappy with Pakistan’s existance and also about being OK with its existence, it should also tell you one of the reasons Pakistanis suspect that Indians want Pakistan to cease being. If you aren’t happy at the existence of something, you would probably want it to just go away. It’s a paradoxical position to take my friend.

  141. ASP / Indian

    Salman,

    AGAIN,

    please respond to my single simple proposal. Let us get past Kashmir on pragmatic terms and then ignore each other. Fair? Please do not meddle in India’s affairs, and you can be SURE that we will NOT bother with you. Enjoy your life.

  142. Indian

    Ok firstly, it was not my position – apparently there are multiple Indians on the comments section (no pun intended).

    People unhappy with Pakistan’s existence – VHP/Hindutva/Bajrang Dal etc.

    People unhappy with the Pakistan state’s inability/unwillingness to deal with cross border terrorism – me, most indians

    So I will reiterate. I personally don’t know any Indian (except nutjobs on Youtube comments sections) who want Pakistan to cease to exist.
    We are not Iran and you are not Israel.

    The creation of two states was a decision that the leaders of both nations arrived at 60 years ago, and we live by that today .

  143. Salman A. Hussain

    Perhaps you don’t remember that India is what India’s boundries are. This is a disputed border. Which means that Kashmir being meddling, in itself is a disputed notion. What UN, India and Pakistan agreed on was a plabicite to deicide whether Kashmir wants to be part of Pakistan or part of India. I for one think Kashmir should be Kashmir if that’s what Kashmir wants. This would put be at loggerheads with my country’s ultranationalists. But so be it. I think that Pakistani ultranationalists have hurt Kashmiri cause more than it has helped it. They have indulged in masacres of Pundits in Kashmir, which is as appalling as the rapes and murders by Indian Army. If these border-hopping Rambos can’t subject their own interest and vision to the indigenous population’s cause, then they only make matters worse for Kashmiris. Which is another reason why they have hurt Kashmiri cause more than they have helped.

  144. Salman A. Hussain

    Yea, having so many Indians (no pun intended)hurling accusations, insults, slurs at you spins one around.

    “The creation of two states was a decision that the leaders of both nations arrived at 60 years ago, and we live by that today .”
    Glad we agree 🙂

  145. ASP / Indian

    Salman,

    For a moment, I actually thought you were a decent bloke in a failed state, but i am repeating myself and you are NOT FOLLOWING

    1) Indians do NOT care about Pakistan’s existence…you are a non-entity… we do NOT covet any territory you control including ‘Azad’ Kashmir…. read this again s-l-o-w-l-y….i do not understand your comment that we Indians are upset about our motherland being split, etc. etc. …. dude, get a grip… we have several distractions as mentioned earlier
    2) YET AGAIN…please respond to my constructive suggestion of MUTUAL IGNORANCE, after dividing Kashmir along LOC

    Point taken on Sharia law….that was a flippant comment….i take it back….north korea and taliban still stand…Is it not true that that damned human being AQ Khan who has made the israelis, arabs, south koreans, japanese, etc. suffer under the prospect of nuclear annihilation… isn’t he a HERO in pakistan??…

    i’ll tell you what i humbly believe your problem is…you THINK you are the average moderate pakistani….you are not

  146. Salman A. Hussain

    “your problem is…you THINK you are the average moderate pakistani….you are not”

    Well, thanks for judging me. I don’t think of myself in terms of average-above/below average, or moderate vs. immoderate. These are judgmental/tactical/political stances that change according to the situation. When I think of my nationality, I think of myself just as Pakistani. No additives like moderate or anything.

    As I commented on the “destabilize Pakistan” post, “Why is a particular person popular? — That is an important question. Is Churchill held in high esteem because he approved the use of poison gas to suppress the 1920’s Arab revolt? or for his bigotry and racism? or is he held in high esteem for his role in WW?”
    Another example is our common revolutionary war of 1857. Do we hail the rebels as our heroes because they slaughtered the families of British officers. One particular basement had ankle-high blood stream. Women, children, old, and young. All – butchered. What the British did is beyond description but that’s not what I am talking about. AQ Khan is not a hero in Pakistan for his proliferation. He is a hero because the state hailed him as a hero for making Pakistan a nuclear power. I personally think, in proliferation, they made him a scapegoat and I don’t know how big, if any, his contribution was to Pakistan becoming a Nuclear power.

    Speaking of nuclear proliferation, Are the French and the Americans that proliferated the Nuclear technology to Israel, held accountable for their deeds. And please don’t tell me the usual story about the Jewish David facing the Arab Goliath. I have read at least a dozen books on the century long Arab-Israeli conflict written by respected American, Arab, and Israeli professors. Militarily and diplomatically Israel dwarfs and has dwarfed Arabs since British mandate. But then to you, Israel’s slaughter of 400 children in 22 days is probably amicable and at least justified, because Palestinians don’t exist or are subhuman. This kind of apathy leads to massacres or it leads to people (like some in Indian Media) suggesting that India should “do a Gaza” to Pakistan.

    “decent bloke in a failed state” Thanks for your condescension. I know very well how to use the tone that you used. I choose not to be a hater or a supremacist. We know now – how morally and mentally inferior, the supremacists of yester years were. Go India! India shining and all that. East or West, India is the best (except for those parts that are poorer than Ethiopia). Look up BBC article “Hunger in India states ‘alarming’”, October 14, 2008). 17 Indian States are hungrier than Ethiopia and twice as hungry as Congo. This article will take you to the World Hunger Index. Neither India nor Pakistan have much to celebrate. Pakistan is 61st hungriest country and India is the 66th hungriest country. There is plenty wrong with both countries. So I’ll worry about my “failed” State and you worry about you starving State.

    As far as your asinine proposal of mutual ignorance is concerned, have you forgotten that it is impossible in 21st century. You do remember what century it is, don’t you?
    India’s problem is India’s problem, that’s the extent of my “mutual ignorance”. I don’t mean to be intrusive, but if India needs help and I have some to offer, it is my duty to help my neighbor. And that’s the difference between non-intrusive co-existence and “I don’t give a damn if my neighbor dies” i.e ignorance. I care about what happens to my distant relatives in India. Not that I miss them or love them deeply, but because any catastrophe to befell them, can have a lasting influence on what I think of India and my Indian friends/acquaintances. I understand what you are saying, but what you are asking for is apathetic inhumane indifference. So repeating the same thoughtless and inhumane rant is not going to help.

  147. ASP / Indian

    I’m obviously touching a nerve here with you. But i’l repeat what i said, you ARE a decent bloke in a failed state.
    Agreed on all counts on Indian poverty, filth, etc. etc…. but you do not find Indians crying over Pakistani poverty or joyless interpretation of islamic law or frankly ANYTHING in pakistan… why don’t you stop thinking about India..

    Its not that i care or don’t care if my neighbour dies…. the evolution o f your society does not permit India to be reasonable in trying to encourage civil society to rise up above your formidable challenges….i am fully aware that islam was once great and the christians were the barbarians….i am also aware that for most of human history india has been the richest country on earth and is now lying 150th on various development indices….that is not the point

    the point is that no Indian wants to interact wth Pakistan on any level….I promise you i am being frank…so thank you for yor help and concern…we do NOT want anything to do with you

    Kashmir – your views on plebiscite just further my point…that Pakistanis still nurse a grudge that the ‘muslim’ valley is in Indian hands….never mind bangladesh, never mind SWAT….a kashmiri plebiscite is still what you are on about…why not plebiscites in fata and baloch….or chechnya, or tibet or texas?

    please get real….and know that you will NEVER be able yo succeed against someone 10 times your size..surely you agree?

    what remains is for the LOC to be a formal border… India has much to repent in Kashmir what with botched elections and an army occupation…. but Indians still cannot buy land in Kashmir and ‘swallow’ it up in the rest of India…like the chinese are doing in tibet…. look at the powers around…the kashmiris’ options are the russians (chechnya) OR the chinese (tibet) or Pak (Taliban/Army/ISI) OR the chance of autonomy with a chastened India….. Let us sort out our mess in the valley….they were never pakistani citizens, so your ‘concern’ is nothing but meddling….meanwhile, you can rule the poor unfortunates of Azad kashmir whichever way u want…..SWAT-like

    fair?

  148. ASP / Indian

    Salman,

    you referred to ‘Muslim Americans’ as being well off, and you are right

    however, i almost fell of my chair laughing given the context…we were talking about communities happy about their pakistani communities or about pakistan generally….and you came up with Uncle Sam..!!

    GSOH you have!

    You need to get out more Salman, no matter how much of a gentleman you are and how well informed you are….line up any 10 citizens of the world and 9 of them will have a worse view of Pakistanis than I do….this is not a debate or my opinion….try it when you travel next

    My views are indeed unfair on people like you…. but you are a bloomin’ ridiculously small MINORITY in your blessed land…. again, not debating.,..you surely agree

  149. azhar aslam

    ASP / Indian

    ”meanwhile, you can rule the poor unfortunates of Azad kashmir whichever way u want”

    aside from the fact that you are rude, uncouth, arrogant (a sure sign of too little knowledge and too much hormones) and vulgar in the way you speak to Salman Hussain

    you seem to inhabit in your own wee world of fantasy…. calling us azad kashmiris poor…. if only you knew…. all your poors would love to be like ‘poor azad kashmiris’

    hehehe … silly boy ( or girl )

    and

    ”the point is that no Indian wants to interact wth Pakistan on any level”

    what are you doing here then ? on pak tea house involved in a spat with a ‘ decent bloke’ ? eh ? come on. show some honour and buzz off. atleast keep your own word and leave us pakistanis alone.

  150. simply61

    Ok, here is my two bit.
    1)’Indian’ why don’t you cross the border back into the Indian blogosphere and stop being the spoksperson for a billion + Indians.For a guy/gal who says we Indians are not obsessed/interested in Pak and its affairs you do have a unbelievable 24×7 presence on this site. 😦

    2) Salman,YLH and other Pakistanis…why don’t you stop replying to the few Indians with whom you get into a slanging match on each post.Surely the 4 or 5 Indians who are the only regular comment writers on PTH (a) do not represent India and are surely not (b) intellectually so stimulating that you can’t ignore them. 🙂

    To be honest the comment section usually is more interesting when Pakistanis with different viewpoints slug it out.

    And YLH woh language ka kuch karo ………maybe the moderator can give a ‘parental supervision required’ type of guidance with each comment. :0

    Oh oh yeh to two bit se jyaada ho gaya.

  151. ASP / Indian

    Point taken…i’m off. This is my first and last time contribuiting on a pakistani blog. I don’t know how many of you have actually seen other pakistani blogs, but they are venom-filled like you won’t believe. This ‘moderate’ blog was irresistible. However, I leave you with a few thoughts:
    1) Ask around, we Indians DO NOT want any relationship with Pakistan
    2) Other than a plebiscite, a 40-year old idea, i have heard no response to the LOC as a formal border. I’m not sure what you mean ‘disputed’ border. If i sit in my living room and decide the texas border is disputed, it does not become so. Why don’t you move east and south from wonderful ‘azad’ kashmir beside your mujahedin friends, and when the Indian army’s bullets cut you to ribbons, you will understand what is a border. It means u cannot go further. Bit similar to traveling north from Punjab into jammu, then staying in the houseboats at srinagar, enjoying the food, scenery, etc…thne moving west to poonch and being stopped by our soldiers (my aunt’s recent experience) because the pak army is waiting on the other side guns drawn….yep, clear enough…reached the BORDER

    be practical please…realities on the ground

    3) It is my sincere hope that ppl like salman succeed in ridding pakistan of its loonies… but it WILL NEVER HAPPEN unless he accepts the ground realities of Kashmir and remains happy with 1/3rd that is ‘azad’ or under pak control or whatever…the day this is accepted, you will have no further need for the jihadis / ISI / Army and you can ditch these parasites and build a nation…
    4) Lastly, you all need to get out more. Even I have been shocked at the outright hatred shown towards Pakistanis by almost every nationality. At restaurants in Italy, I am hesitatingly asked whether I am Indian, then when i confirm it, a beaming smile and a glass of wino follows along with a loud conversation how they are relieved i am not pakistani…these are trips with my muslim friends who incidentally cannot get a visa i they had a pak passport…germany and spain are worse and the US is getting tired of pretending not to want to bomb you out of existence next week…

    your concerns for palestine are both genuine and laughable…. genuine and amazing because islam binds you lot together in a way that others cannot understand….my heart tdoes not bleed for Fiji’s hindus for e.g. or for discrimination in the west indies….i give money to charities for kids, earthquake victims, famine, war, etc. without thinking if the recipients are muslim….but you lot are different….
    laughable because wht can you do about it?…you are impotent in so many ways at home… best let your palestinian concerns lie low

    It sounds bad…it is….get past kashmir and stop wasting your moderate time on moderate blogs witha plebiscite at the back of your mind…. that is just pointless…ther is NOT ONE WAY forward for your moderates to fix your country without removing Kashmir as an issue….the ground realities of the LOC should help

    A good start would be to stop the LeT and LeM and JuD openly operating in Pak recruiting further jihadists for Kashmir….bcos when uncle sam forces you to fight them, they get pissed off and blow up your own cities….you CAN’T have it both ways….agree?

    All the best….i have my hedonistic immoral useless cow-worshipping Indian life to get back to which involves a little money, great food, wine/socializing, bacon, lovely muslim friends (indian), skiing, steak, scuba, spliffs and song…also just back form the alhambra in spain…fascinated by islamic art….marrakech, turkey…fantastic

    but i’m only a hate-filled bigot…and you lot think you are moderate

  152. hayyer48

    If Indian is still around this message is for him.
    1. The Kashmir dispute is not imagined. It is for real. India took the issue to the UN.
    2. The UN resolution remained unimplemented only because the conditions for the holding of a plebiscite were never implemented.
    3. The line separating the two Kashmirs is called the Line of Control; it is not called a Border.
    4. If there is no Kashmir dispute what is India discussing with Pakistan at its meetings or in back channels. More important why is it discussing Kashmir.
    5.There is no dearth of loonies in India either. The ground realities that you mention are only that India is in control and Pakistan cant get us out.
    6.Why is concern for Palestine laughable. It is a continuing tragedy.
    7.A concern for Kashmir or Palestine does not make Pakistani into bigots.

  153. Salman

    Glad to have brought some joy to your sad life, that you fell laughing from your chair. The question was what have Pakistanis contributed to the world and what countries like their Pakistani communities. The answer to the first question was the contribution Pakistani community has made to their host country – to even a country whose politicians are responsible for over a million muslim deaths in a matter of few years. Last time I checked, US was still part of the world. I am yet to meet a Pakistani American who hates Americans in general for what their elected leaders have done. This is a sophisticated mental wedge that you seem to be unable to come up with. A wedge between Foreign policy and domestic policy, State and society, ignorance and intended malice, segments of society and society at large, criminals and ordinary folks.

    If you think that you know better, how Pakistanis/Muslims are treated in Europe and America than Pakistanis/Muslims themselves, then you are laughably wrong and are now saying Muslims/Pakistanis are so dumb that they don’t even know that they are discriminated against. But perhaps you just want to salt Pakistani wounds.

    Traveling to Cordova and Istanbul, having a laugh with Muslims, does not prove that you are not prejudiced. Your assumption that Muslims only do charitable deeds for other Muslims and not for others, is a proof of a sweeping generalization on your part. Essentialism stems from generalization, and bigotry and racism from essentialism. A bigot is a bigot even if he considers just one group inferior or distasteful but is completey egalitarian with all others. As for your suggestion I need to get out more, that’s another assumption on your part (that I don’t step outside). Since you can’t indulge in a civil and a scholarly debate with me based on logic and facts towards a common humanity, you have resorted to the “(Since I am ignorant) You must be a bookworm who esn’t mingle with people and hence doesn’t know the reality” line.

    Whatever hate mongerer Orianna Fallaci loving Italy may be, the society that I live in welcomes me. With every good comes the bad, and hence the Bush administration and his Neo-KKK Bush Republicans. Suspicion of everything Muslim is widespread (some 40% Americans don’t want a Muslim neighbor – not 9 out of 10), but rest assured things in US will never get Gujrat-bad. I won’t have to line them up, there will be more than 9 Americans who’ll fire every single bullet they have before they let their fellow countrymen dismember and burn me to death. Something that both Pakistanis and Indians need to learn from “Uncle Sam”, so that we can protect our minorities better.

    Italy is a different place where Muslim-owned cafe’s and restaurant have started coming under frequent attacks. Some Dutch want Quran banned. Discrimination in the West is now religion based (and also immigration-based). Where Pakistani is the prominent Muslim face, Pakistanis are hated more. In the US, Pakistanis are lumped with Arabs because Arabs are the prominent Muslim immigrant face and thus disliked more. “Paki”-bashing in UK goes back decades, and it doesn’t matter whether the “Paki” (a british racist slur) they are beating up is a Pakistani or a Cuban. Xenophobia is xenophobia.

    As far as, no force winning a battle against a foe 10 times stronger, have you never read your own history? British were enormously stronger than Hindustani -resistance, French more than Algerians, Americans more than Vietnemese, Alexander to America infinitely stronger than Afghans, French-British-Israel stronger than Nasser’s Egypt in the Suez canal invasion, Mongols were the most formidable fighting force of its day but they were defeated eventually. The list goes on and on and on, but I guess it is easy and comforting to be ignorant. Looking at the list of defeated Great powers, I don’t think India comes anywhere close to them. So, buddy boy it is a long way to go. Keep at it. I hope India gets there and at the height of its power has friendly relations with its neighbors, none of whom have pristine relations with it as yet.

    Those that base their views on their actual knowledge of a co-worker from Pakistan or a Pakistani friend are plenty, and so are those that judge their Pakistani co-workers from news. They might not be able to tell a Pakistani from a Moroccan, but that’s only natural. How many of us can pick out a Cambodian from a Chinese?

    I try to base my judgement of Indians on the Indians I have come to know, not on some Pakistani-hater on a Pakistani blog or on the Pakistani state propaganda or on what the Hindu supremicists did in Gujrat. If I wanted to, I could overlook the fact that every single Indian I have met has been nice and friendly. I have read all non-fiction that Arundhati Roy has ever written, I root for Mayawati and CPI, I hail Congress party’s anti-colonial stance, I hail Bhagat Singh as a hero, I plan to study Gandhi even though I am not a pacifist and do think that his “Ram-Raj” language enhanced the divisions between us. How much interest do you have, in anything good about Pakistan? Have you read Faiz, Iqbal, Eqbal Ahmed, Mohsin Hamid etc.? Do you hold any amount of respect for any Pakistani literary or national hero? Do you know that the most respected man in Pakistan is Edhi and not Osama? Can you even name a single Pakistani dissident? (I’m sure you know everything about the bad guys) Have you read about or looked for anything positive in or about Pakistan (past or present)? While we Pakistanis, in YLH’s words, know that our shit stinks and are looking for what we can learn even from countries and societies that allegedly detest us, you think your shit is aromatic.

  154. Milind Kher

    Salman,

    I am glad that you do not judge Indians on the basis of a few -ve experiences, but take a more holistic and mature view.

    There are enough and more of us that understand your problems and in fact realize that we need to work together to defeat the hostile forces that are proving a danger to both our respective countries.

  155. ASP

    OK, i get the message. Pakistanis’ general views on Kashmir are clear. They covet the valley, and India will have to live with that. So my favoured way forward will be difficult i guess. It was practical though.

    Salman,

    What you hear from Indians and Americans in America is the same Indian (me) and the same American who will have a pleasant conversation with you out of politeness. We do not even believe you are an evil guy, and yes it is unfair to label all Pakis terrorists. But when you are not around the conversation does turn to failed states, state support of jihadi groups, the ‘strategic depth’ in afghanistan thru the taliban, etc. etc.
    And please NOTE that these are only issues that affect the outside world. You can slaughter each other in sectarian violence, but it is none of my business or the Americans’. …and we KNOW it

    As for empires, the British were finished by world wars/decline. And anyay India has no empire, but for you who cannot manufacture a thimble to force us out of an adjacent tract of land 1/50th the size of India is a bit rich. It is only our mutual enemy, your jihadist groups that talk about caliphates stretching from spain to indonesia with hindu india and bubbhist thailand the major immoral sticking points. You will agree that these are the most ‘joyful’ 2 places in a stretch of joylessness…..maybe till Bali

    I do not say you or all Pak share their world view. but YOU created it … for Kashmir

    We talked about the American..on Europe, you at least admit the hate as you see it..can you imagine it when you are not around?…fact, not opinion Sir

    Perhaps, just perhaps it is YOU that has a rose tinted view of how ppl perceive Pakistan…how is it different from the British Muslims saying ‘its not us’…… head in the sand….. Don’t like the Iraq/Afghan policy, let’s blow up a few trains….. Pakistan is the nerve center of world terrorism…. i’m glad you feel sorry for me, fr then you must understand how sorry everyone feels for you

    Gujarat – bad??…this just proves your obsession with the outside world…how is it your concerns if Indians slaughter other Indians? Do we bleat about the circus that is your daily life across the border? We are a large ungovernable country with more diversity than Pak will ever understand…races, religions, castes, states, languages, sects, conservatives, intellectuals, left, right, u name it……add to that we are dirt poor…sure we’ll have fights…and your concern exists WHY?

    Your charity to Uncle Sam is amazing… if they had a bomb go off in a different city every month, I doubt they would be too pleased…and why u against bush??…obama plans to send MORE troops to your part of the world….Iraq was about oil, just like the American presence in Saudi….. so what?….they paid for their policy through 9/11…. how does it concern you? It surely isn’t because your chances of being an office worker in the towers is greater than being in a mud hut in fata? Because if that were true you wud support bush/obama and not mindlessly want US disengagement from the islamic world

    please heed words above…Saudi is about OIL….. but US presence in Af-Pak is about terrorism!!!

    This is what most ppl cannot understand…the hypocracy…every time you fill your pork-fortified German made BMW with Saudi oil extracted at gunpoint by the American army, you make a fool of yourself…I have more respect for the jihadis who fight their enemy thatn those who live under its protection, yet support a policy that creates groups that undermines your host country, your neighbours and the world in general….u r parasites…i will gamely accept that a Paki across the border who wants kashmir will fight for it….and the war continues…but YOU….until you publicly renounce your support for the jihadists…..WHICH I AM STILL TO SEE…… there’s plenty here about plebiscites, has anyone said perhaps the era of the jihadist is over??…or will you wait till it consumes you all?

    My dad had 3 lucky escapes…. i only hope you never suffer the pain of losing a loved one leading a sensible life (perhaps in a host country) as a result of the jihadists’ actions whome you COVERTLY SUPPORT…..

    Pak is described as a migraine….charitable i think given diplomatic niceties

  156. YLH

    Salman,

    You don’t have to prove Pakistan’s contribution the world to a scoundrel like Indian here.

    Pakistanis- not expats- have been making their contributions to the world… the Large Hadron Collider for example has several strong Pakistani contribution beginning with GUT and then ofcourse the building and design itself and many of the components were made in NUST Islamabad.

    Ofcourse Indian contribution will always be more to everything …given their size but it is absolute hubris and just plain hate that makes freaks who themselves can’t contribute zit …deny such things.

    You are wasting your time with this fool. He Indian/ASP is a lying twit and a dishonest crook. My posts were similarly deleted two days ago but he kept claiming that my posts were not deleted.

    I am just surprised that hatemongering fascist bigots like this guy have the gall to lecture others on “tolerance” and “moderation”.

    Poor guy though despite his tall claims about us being a migraine and terror central has failed to get his masters the Americans to designate us as such. What a stinging slap that must be.

  157. lal

    Nice post salman,
    didnt understand y u mentioned mayavathi behenji in that list…face of dalith resistance?

  158. Salman A. Hussain

    Lal,
    You may choose to look at it as a destabilizing force, or you may choose to think that my appreciation of Mayawati is because I see her as a Dalit resistance aimed at weakening India. Both perspectives will be incorrect.

    Mayawati – Not a face of Dalit resistance, but a face of Dalit representation. An indication of Dalits stepping into the political fray. I am aware of corruption charges on her, but the point is that Dalits have started to stand up and be counted.

    Indian nationalists can try to take all the credit and say that it is India’s democracy that has allowed that to happen. While some credit goes to India’s political system, but like the Civil Rights movement in US, the credit goes to the leaders of minority even if they aren’t perfect like Malcolm X wasn’t. More Dalit representation can only make your country stronger.

    ASP:
    Thanks for your response. I knew that you will spill your guts more angrily and fully expose how you think and your hatred especially in quoting V.S Naipul’s bigotry of labelling expat Muslims & Minority Muslims (that’s a lot more than 200 Million people) as parasites. Naipul should have stuck to beating his wives, but I guess he had to be a sadist in every facet of his life.

    The two kinds of people that are obsessed with the Caliphate are Osmas and ASPs of the world. You should do India a great service and drop “Indian” from your alias, lest you malign the reputation of your fellow countrymen. Even a child can demolish your argument (I don’t think you have any argument that is worth critiqing though) comprehensively, so I won’t dignify the points raised in your bigotted rant with a response.

  159. Salman A. Hussain

    YLH,

    Expat Pakistanis are still Pakistanis. Their contributions are as both — Pakistanis and (for instance) Westerners, because they are both Pakistani and Western regardless of what Naipul and his bigotted/xenophobic followers may say (parasites, 5th Column etc.). Multiple Identity thing you know.

    I think I have read somewhere you mentioning Identities being imagined constructs (You are spot on). I know that you are a reading man. I would recommend reading Benedict Anderson’s dry but essential read “Imagined Communities”, and to further cement the argument read Rashid Khalidi’s “Palestinian Identity” as a case study on Identity.

  160. lal

    No salman, i dont see her as destabilising force or anything….i was surprised that people outside r taking a serious note of her..this forum is nt for discussing internal politics of india…but i think u r aware that there is a real chance(atleast according to bsp&left perception) of she becoming the prime minister of india…it can be seen in two ways…giving representation and real power to very marginalised section of the society whose voices were suppressed over 100s of years…or power to corrupt,highly highly egotical personality

  161. Milind Kher

    Dalits have been repressed for more than a millennium.

    If they are given genuinely good opportunities and are encouraged by the state, the talent they will bring to the table is enormous.

    The Muslims in India are already moving rapidly towards education, and you find more and more Muslims in the media, IT etc.

  162. Salman A. Hussain

    She is dubbed by some as India’s Obama and possibly the next PM. From what I read she is egotistical and corrupt. But, I think in the bigger picture view, her emergence is a positive development.

    I think I read an article on her reprouced on Daily Times Pakistan “Waiting for India’s Obama” Economic Times of India. 6, Nov 2008

    Another good one: “An Obama Moment for India’s Untouchables” by Shashi Tahoor on Huffington Post and also on Project Syndicate.

  163. Milind Kher

    Salman,

    A lot of politicicians are egoistic and corrupt. What is important is to see what they can do for the country.

    Mayawati has amply demonstrated that she has the power to change things. Whether she can become PM or not is something that would be premature to comment on. However, she will always be a force to reckon with.

  164. Akshata

    It is would be a shameful thing for any country in which a thing like this happens. But the people who do this do not represent the whole population of that country. All we can really expect now is that Pakistan takes up a slightly more aggressive stand against these elements on their land but i also hope that they are supported and encouraged in this by the other countries of the sub continent and the world. Pakistan must indeed get things back in order and that would be the duty of the commoners, I believe.
    My sympathies with your country.

  165. simply61

    Akshata,that is right.Often in the noise of ultra nationalistic jingoism one forgets that nations that are in turmoil are composed of ordinary human beings wanting to lead a life of relative peace and security.
    So when a lot of people(including some very vociferous Indians on this site)don’t tire of telling Pakistanis that they made their own hell,they forget that most of those Pakistanis had nothing to do with how things turned out in their country.

    By raising the temperature on the ‘nationalsitic’ plank what actually happens is that you make the ordinary people join ranks with their ‘leadersip’ that got the things to such a state in the first place.

    I go back to my original stand.This site is free to be read by all of us but it defintely was not set up by Pakistanis for Indians to give them advice on what to do.

    By jumping in some Indians tend to reduce it to a slanging match and then Pakistanis match them and it becomes the old old game of ,”My country is good because yours is so much worse than mine.”

  166. Milind Kher

    Simply61,

    I respect the way you have put things forth. We are guests on this site, and we need to behave as guests.

    At the same time, I must appreciate the restraint and sobriety that the Pakistani contributors on this site have often showed.

  167. simply61

    @ Salman
    Mayawati behen’s social engineering is very very interesting(she has got the Brahmins and Dalits on the same plank) and will have far reaching consequences for Indian politics,one way or the other.
    Right now though she is going through the phase of extreme self adulation,amassing huge amounts of personal wealth and property and erecting huge statues of her self and her mentors at great expense all over U.P.(they actually remind one of Saddam’s statues 😦
    Hopefully when the greed phase is over she will awake to the full potential of what a historic chance she has to bring about phenomenal change and course correct Indian politics for the better.

  168. simply61

    Yes,Milind I think we must go back to the old saying that listening(reading in this case) is a bigger virtue than talking.One can actually learn a lot by not jumping in with unsolicited ‘advice and opinions ‘all the time.

  169. Majumdar

    Simply,

    The rainbow coalition that Maya has built- Brahmins, Dalits and Muslims is a repeat of what INC had built in the early years. But in an interesting twist, now Dalits are the leaders and Brahmins are bandwagoning on them- a complete reversal of the INC formula. This is a sign of how far Indian politics and perhaps society has progressed.

    Regards

  170. Salman A. Hussain

    Her best days may be ahead of her, but she has already done enough by giving Dalits a foot in the door and by setting an example. She may still win the grand slam yet. Even if she couldn’t recover from her statue spree, the next Dalit leaders can prove to be much better.

  171. simply61

    That is right Salman.And she may learn as she goes along.If one travels through the únglamorous ‘parts of India now there is a plapable change in the air…….a kind of buzz.Nothing is going to change overnight but the masses are certainly on their way to challange and change the old order.Interesting times ahead and hopefully a break from the Gandhi scions 🙂

  172. yasserlatifhamdani

    Simply,

    Some of the best advice I have gotten in life is from Indians like you …

    It is not the advice that bothers us… it is the abuse.

  173. Salman A. Hussain

    Some of you might have already read this by Muhammad Hanif (author of ‘A case of Exploding Mangos’)published in Times of India.

    Ten myths about Pakistan

    “Living in Pakistan and reading about it in the Indian press can sometimes be quite a disorienting experience: one wonders what place on earththey’re talking about? I wouldn’t be surprised if an Indian reader going through Pakistani papers has asked the same question in recent days. Here are some common assumptions about Pakistan and its citizens that I have come across in the Indian media…

    Pakistan controls the jihadis: Or Pakistan’s government controls the jihadis. Or Pakistan Army controls the jihadis. Or ISI controls the jihadis. Or some rogue elements from the ISI control the Jihadis. Nobody knows the whole truth but increasingly it’s the tail that wags the dog. We must remember that the ISI-Jihadi alliance was a marriage of convenience, which has broken down irrevocably. Pakistan army has lost more soldiers at the hands of these jihadis than it ever did fighting India.

    Musharraf was in control, Zardari is not: Let’s not forget that General Musharraf seized power after he was fired from his job as the army chief by an elected prime minister. Musharraf first appeased jihadis, then bombed them, and then appeased them again. The country he left behind has become a very dangerous place, above all for its own citizens. There is a latent hankering in sections of the Indian middle class for a strongman. Give Manmohan Singh a military uniform, put all the armed forces under his direct command, make his word the law of the land, and he too will go around thumping his chest saying that it’s his destiny to save India from Indians . Zardari will never have the kind of control that Musharraf had. But Pakistanis do not want another Musharraf.

    Pakistan, which Pakistan? For a small country, Pakistan is very diverse, not only ethnically but politically as well. General Musharraf’s government bombed Pashtuns in the north for being Islamists and close to the Taliban and at the same time it bombed Balochs in the South for NOT being Islamists and for subscribing to some kind of retro-socialist, anti Taliban ethos. You have probably heard the joke about other countries having armies but Pakistan’s army having a country. Nobody in Pakistan finds it funny.

    Pakistan and its loose nukes: Pakistan’s nuclear programme is under a sophisticated command and control system, no more under threat than India or Israel’s nuclear assets are threatened by Hindu or Jewish extremists. For a long time Pakistan’s security establishment’s other strategic asset was jihadi organisations, which in the last couple of years have become its biggest liability.

    Pakistan is a failed state: If it is, then Pakistanis have not noticed. Or they have lived in it for such a long time that they have become used to its dysfunctional aspects. Trains are late but they turn up, there are more VJs, DJs, theatre festivals, melas, and fashion models than a failed state can accommodate. To borrow a phrase from President Zardari, there are lots of non-state actors like Abdul Sattar Edhi who provide emergency health services, orphanages and shelters for sick animals.

    It is a deeply religious country: Every half-decent election in this country has proved otherwise. Religious parties have never won more than a fraction of popular vote. Last year Pakistan witnessed the largest civil rights movements in the history of this region. It was spontaneous, secular and entirely peaceful. But since people weren’t raising anti-India or anti-America slogans, nobody outside Pakistan took much notice.

    All Pakistanis hate India: Three out of four provinces in Pakistan – Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP – have never had any popular anti-India sentiment ever. Punjabis who did impose India as enemy-in-chief on Pakistan are now more interested in selling potatoes to India than destroying it. There is a new breed of al-Qaida inspired jihadis who hate a woman walking on the streets of Karachi as much as they hate a woman driving a car on the streets of Delhi. In fact there is not much that they do not hate: they hate America, Denmark, China CDs, barbers, DVDs , television, even football. Imran Khan recently said that these jihadis will never attack a cricket match but nobody takes him seriously.

    Training camps: There are militant sanctuaries in the tribal areas of Pakistan but definitely not in Muzaffarabad or Muridke, two favourite targets for Indian journalists, probably because those are the cities they have ever been allowed to visit. After all how much training do you need if you are going to shoot at random civilians or blow yourself up in a crowded bazaar? So if anyone thinks a few missiles targeted at Muzaffarabad will teach anyone a lesson, they should switch off their TV and try to locate it on the map.

    RAW would never do what ISI does: Both the agencies have had a brilliant record of creating mayhem in the neighbouring countries. Both have a dismal record when it comes to protecting their own people. There is a simple reason that ISI is a bigger, more notorious brand name: It was CIA’s franchise during the jihad against the Soviets. And now it’s busy doing jihad against those very jihadis.

    Pakistan is poor, India is rich: Pakistanis visiting India till the mid-eighties came back very smug. They told us about India’s slums, and that there was nothing to buy except handicrafts and saris. Then Pakistanis could say with justifiable pride that nobody slept hungry in their country. But now, not only do people sleep hungry in both the countries, they also commit suicide because they see nothing but a lifetime of hunger ahead. A debt-ridden farmer contemplating suicide in Maharashtra and a mother who abandons her children in Karachi because she can’t feed them: this is what we have achieved in our mutual desire to teach each other a lesson. “

  174. simply61

    YLH,as I have suggested before….why don’t you just stop reacting to the nonsense written by a few.In last few posts,it has primarily been just one ‘Indian’ who has caused mayhem(and he has taken on the ID Indian 😦 )
    One has to truncate that chain reaction at some point and only the wiser one can do that,in my opinion.

  175. simply61

    Salman, it is the same for most nations.As an Indian reading about India in papers/media of other nations(not just Pakistani papers,especially urdu)is a surreal experience.We are always about to either implode with ethnic tensions or go to war with you and we generally have no other couture but the saffron that ‘we all don all the time’ to roam the streets and kill anyone from the minority community that we see.
    All nations have multiple realities and no single one of these is representative of the nation in its entirety.While the -ve things do happen they by no means are all we sum up to just as our ‘shining India IT bandwagon’ also does not represent us in totality.
    What other countries media pick upon are the underbellies and that alone……..the many nuances of a nations existence are totally ignored.
    And thus you are ‘a wild bunch of green flag waving bearded blokes with AK 47s’ and we are the ‘saffron clad-trishul’ carrying mobs.Oops our weaponry is outdated compared to yours 🙂

  176. Milind Kher

    Salman,

    The TOI carried this article on Jan 4th 2009. However, changing mindsets is very difficult. Either people do not register what they read if it is in conflict with their opinion, ot they do not want to.

    Unfortunately, these things will have to be played back to them over and over again, and we will also need to reinforce this.

    The Taliban is serious stuff. Needs to be dealt with right away, IMHO

  177. ASP / Indian

    I have indeed vented some anger, but I have been perilously close to losing family members to these atrocities.

    Instead of pussy-footing and pattng each other on the back for being so civilized on this blog, why don’t we discuss the real problem? This is what I have been bringing up. Pakistanis’ views on Kashmir are clear (generalization). Plebiscite, etc. and certianly no LOC=border solution

    What is your solution?

    Is anyone in agreement that the jihadist policy should now be abandoned going forward? I am YET to hear this. Please, YES or NO

    I am unsure what Kashmir means to Pakistan. Please illuminate. Kashmir is integral to the idea that is India, a multi-ethnic multi-religous, multi-everything nation. Given the frustrations of daily life in abject proverty, we do pretty well. Just look at the London bombs or Madrid bombs, or Northern Ireland, or the French estates, or Italy….wealthy countries with tiny minorities erlative to India…..or Iraq or Sri Lanka….a multi-everything society is difficult to govern even in wealthy countries…Nehru was Kashmiri…Sure we messed up with rigged elections….but Indira Gandhi had the emergency nationwide….mirule needs to be rectified…..through the ballot box…it does not mean the whole nation splits up…

    What makes Kashmir more Pakistani than Indian?….it is NOT religion…please….Islam reached the southern and coastal central India well before it reached Pakistan anyway…. Bangladesh didn’t stay with you because you shared the same religion….. we have Muslim majority regions all over the country….they have been upset at various points about various things…. same as casteism, fights over water and other resources, etc that hindus may fight each other about …… Look at our matrimonials…..Indians are the most institutionally racist people in the world…..even with eath other….. doesn’t mean you split things up to solve them

    Re independence, Salman’s thoughts above sum up the position of many countries…What is common between the regions of Pakistan? Tribals, Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, etc….should they therefore all be independent? What about the Pashtuns, Tajiks and Uzbeks in Afghanistan?…split it up? Iraq to between Sunni/Shia/Kurd….Turkey?
    African and South east asian countries are very multi-everything…surely no one suggests they should all be splintered?

    So why Kashmir then? And why does your heart bleed for them? What does it mean to you? They were never Pakistani, did not want to join Pak at any point…. and yet you insist publicly that you only provide ‘moral support’ to the Kashmiris….firstly, why?… and secondly, who are we kidding?….where do the guns come from? Salman himself suggested above that the esablishment have in the last 2 years lost control of their ‘strategic assets’.

    In most Indian’s views, your real enemy is your bloated army which keeps taking steps to perpetuate itself….keeping Kashmir boiling is in the Army’s interests… and unless they are cut down to size, things will continue the way they are…what is the point of electiosn and Zardari? He has no power as you yourself admit.

    Again, what is your suggested solution on Kashmir?….and please, YES or NO on the Jihadis’ continued activity?

    The resolution of Kashmir s the first step in a long-delayed wind down of the Pakistani army… the real enemy of both peoples’ future prosperity.

  178. hayyer48

    Just a short revert to Mayawati.
    It is an insult to Obama to compare any Indian politician with him. The only thing that he has in common with Mayawati is that both are supposed to be self made. But even that is not strictly true. Mayawati rose to her present position because she was pushed up by the founder of the BSP Kanshi
    Ram. Today Mayawati has all the defects of the Indian political class. Further, she is not even an attractive politician; I dont mean that in the sexist sense. She simply lacks grace.
    Indian politics like most third world politics is about power and money. Ideology became irrelevant decades ago.

  179. Majumdar

    Hayyer mian,

    It is an insult to Obama to compare any Indian politician with him.

    India is a third rate country naturally its politicians are third rate too. USA is a first rate nation, naturally its politicians are (on an average) better too.

    Regards

  180. lal

    salman bhaya an excellent post again,about mayawathi the chances r indeed real as i see it….LDF+PDP will get something in kerala,they have AIDMK in tamilnadu,TDP in andhra,AND jd(s) in karnataks…Of these atleat the 1 st 3 are really strong..in maharashtra both NCP and shivasena can support a 3 rd front all they r indeed part of 1st and 2 nd as of now…bihar again RJD or nithish can turn in,depending on who has more seats along with ljp of paswan.BJD is already in 3 rd front…bengal of cos the left has a presence,pdp from kashmir,north east has some regional parties …nothing from Madhyapradesh,gujarath and rajasthan…so finally it will all come down to how much she can get from Uttarpradesh…if she really makes it through,i can assure u,india will be a much more funny place to live in than pakistan….constructing babel tower will be a cake walk

  181. YLH

    Simply,

    Taking your advice. Ignoring crazy ASP just as I hope you will ignore our crazies ie Ahmad Quraishi, Zaid Hamid etc.

  182. lal

    and i aint heard that army pak joke b4…vl use t next tym 🙂

  183. Salman A. Hussain

    That Pak army joke is also used for Israel and some other countries. Basically it refers to the size of the Military Industrial Complex in a country. Verious levels of Military’s intrusion in State affairs, Economy, and budget exist. I can’t recall exactly but I think Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa came up with seven levels/categories.

  184. Milind Kher

    TLH,

    Zaid Hamid is HILARIOUS. At a time when the indianmuslims blog had got very serious, seeing him and his comments provided comic relief.

    He is a great guy, a natural comedian. He can cheer up the saddest guy!!

  185. Salman A. Hussain

    I think he still serves a purpose though. He helps you brush up on the conspiracy theories 🙂

  186. simply61

    Thank you YLH.Now I look fwd to some serious (not humourless though)exchange of ideas.And I hope you stick to your resolution to not respond to ASP and similar….. 🙂
    BTW, ASP promises to cross back over into the Indian blogosphere and less than 24 hours later he is back at PTH.Maybe the site is addictive 🙂
    Personally,I do not waste time wrangling endlessly over any issue with anyone.I have the freedom to put fwd my thesis and the other side to reject……I just get on with more reading of more interesting posts/articles/news/views….maybe I take the easy way out.

  187. Salman A. Hussain

    13 more comments to double century 🙂
    That’s gotta be some sort of a record. eh?

  188. alok

    coming back to the topic:

    an extremely angry, punch packed article. (read the other sports that the author talks about apart from cricket)

    PAKISTAN
    Goodbye cricket, hello gulli danda

    Tuesday, 10 Mar, 2009 | 08:39 AM PST |

    First off, what did the poor, gentle, Sri Lankans do to deserve the treatment they got in Lahore at our hands?

    I ask this question in the manner I do because right-wing pundits and the authorities can bury their heads in the sand and say that this country and its own people had nothing to do with the atrocity; I believe it was no one but Pakistanis who planned, trained for, and did the dastardly deed.

    They were quite obviously cousins to the beheading brigade who have recently taken over Swat after defeating the much-vaunted Pakistan Army and the craven government of the ANP which did not stand its ground.

    What was the Sri Lankans’ crime, anyway? The fact that their country was the only country in the whole wide world that came to Pakistan’s aid when West Pakistani forces were fighting that ill-fated and cruel battle to prevent East Pakistan’s secession so many tragic years ago? This question is asked specifically because our security establishment, even today, insists that the mindlessly cruel militants who rule almost all of the Frontier today are ‘patriots’ who will come to Pakistan’s aid if there is need to ward off Indian aggression!

    What, more specially, was the Sri Lankan cricket team’s fault? That they were the only cricket team in the whole wide world who were foolish enough to venture into the Land of the Pure, the frightening and horrendous place it has become? Really! We have more than proved the fact that we are a bunch of incompetents who have allowed yahoos to run riot in our country. ‘Yahoo’ is used here in the worst sense, described by Jonathan Swift in Gulliver’s Travels as a race of wild beings who are half beast and half man, and who have none of the finer instincts of (even) beasts.

    And what of the security lapses that are so apparent from the CCTV and TV footage as filmed by a private TV station that overlooks Liberty Chowk, where the attack on our guests took place? Twelve or 14 terrorists, carrying huge backpacks, saunter on to the Liberty roundabout, before the team was to pass along there, and no one finds them before the team’s bus arrives? Governor Taseer talks about SOPs being followed: is physically searching behind cover along a secured route, especially where a vehicle carrying a VVIP target has to slow down, not one of the most important SOPs ever?

    The specifics now: The firing goes on for more than 25 minutes according to every report, yet not one terrorist is killed, not one disabled and captured. The Gulberg police station is located barely one hundred yards from the scene, yet not one policeman bestirs himself to saunter over and see what all the commotion is about, and in the process perhaps apprehend just one of the murderers? And the governor has the gall to say that Shahbaz Sharif himself did not tell him about the warning issued by the Punjab home department re: a possible attack on the Sri Lankans? I ask you!

    It was nothing but a huge failure on the part of the present government, which failure will see Pakistan cricket die a quick and well-deserved death in this country. For look at the arrogant way in which the sport has been/is being run in the country. Just look at the ill-worded attack that the president of the PCB launched on Chris Broad, for God’s sake!

    We are a very unique people; and for reasons best known only to ourselves we think the light shines out of our left ears and right nostrils. We are egotistical and conceited and simply will not face up to reality. Simply spoken, we do not deserve to play that game of gentlemen. It’s gulli danda for us, friends.

    And other such sports that are the rage in the Land of the Pure; the Citadel of Islam; the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Sports such as hanging recently slaughtered corpses from electric poles and learning which is the exact place in the human solar plexus where the notice ordering passers-by not to take down the dead body before such and such a time in the morning can be affixed with a dagger.

    Sports such as dragging women teachers (who insist on teaching girl pupils) from their homes in the dead of night by the hair after putting dancing-girl bells on their ankles (to announce them as nautch girls) to the nearest square and then slaughtering them and hanging their bodies in the manner stated above. Who wants boring old cricket, when we have all of the above?

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Security Czar Rehman Malik tells us Pakistan is in a state of war. Truer words were not spoken, but Malik did not tell us who we were at war with. He did not tell us that we were at war with ourselves, destroying what little is left of our country because of self-service and sheer incompetence. He did not tell us that our failed security establishment is mainly to blame for the extremely dire straits we are in: witness the debacle in Swat and much of Fata where the Taliban now rule supreme.

    On the very day that Czar Malik pronounced that Pakistan was at war, the GOP told us the Mobile Courts Ordinance was issued during the sitting of parliament because neither the president, nor the law minister, nor the parliamentary affairs minister was aware that the National Assembly was in session! I ask you.

    And amidst all of this, the PPP is doing to the PML-N in the Punjab in 2009 what Musharraf did to the PPP in Sindh in 2002: steal its majority in the provincial assembly and form its own government made up of odds and ends, even the ‘Qatil’ League. In an article of a few weeks ago I had asked to what avail had the PPP allowed the loud and in-your-face and adolescent Salman Taseer his shenanigans? For they will only bring grief to the party, and to those that sail in her.

    I end with quoting from Taseer’s promoter, the Commando, who during his present visit to India has said he is quite willing to take over Pakistan’s presidency once more, if he is asked nicely. The man has brass of a very special kind, indeed.

    kshafi1@yahoo.co.uk

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/goodbye-cricket-hello-gulli-danda–szh

  189. alok

    hmmm….is this news of any importance?

    PAKISTAN
    Fata’s 35 Hindus migrate to India

    Monday, 09 Mar, 2009 | 03:32 PM PST |

    AMRITSAR: A group of 35 Hindus, nearly half of them women, from Pakistan have crossed over to India and asked the government to allow them to settle in the country, Indian media reported Monday.

    ‘We were living in Pakistan under extreme fear due to the domination of a strong group of Taliban who are running a parallel government,’ Jagdish Sharma, a resident of tribal area near Peshawar in Pakistan, said according to report.

    Four families comprising 16 men, 16 women and three children crossed over to India during the last few days through the Attari check post and later went to Delhi where they got a one-year visa and permission to stay in Amritsar.

    ‘We strongly urge the government of India to allow us to stay here in India permanently, since we don’t want to move back in that hell where there is no life security,’ said Sharma.

    Hardwari Lal, resident of Orkzai agency said: ‘I was running my grocery shop there which was forcibly taken over by the fundamentalists who also took possession of our entire property.’

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/fatas-35-hindus-migrate-to-india–bi

  190. lal

    YLH in anger can actually come up with sme gr8 comments simply….remember him telling somewhere ‘it is a known fact that indians in west used to pass off as pakistanis to score with the girls’….hope after ur advice we dont lose him n d comment column…mean wyl salman,doing a gr8 job in the imran column…wanted to join but thought it is better to watch frm sidelines…cheers mate

  191. lal

    k 11 more 🙂

  192. YLH

    Lal,

    To be clear …I said “Indian boys tried to pass off as Pakistanis to score with INDIAN girls”.

  193. simply61

    Lal,I know what u mean but don’t worry,YLH is not going to stop altogether. 🙂 Its just this futile wrangling with a few that deprives us all from more meaningful stuff from the contributors of this site.
    That thing is true here in the Gulf too.Indian boys sometiems claim to be Pakistanis to ‘patao’ girls and Pakistanis often claim to be Indians to run profitable ‘Indian’ restuarants 🙂 Yeh hai na asli symbiosis.

  194. simply61

    YLH,aakhir padosi hi padosi ke kaam aatey hain na….LOL

  195. Salman A. Hussain

    Lal, thanks,

    5 more 🙂

  196. Very nice site, and informative article.

  197. lal

    Allies turn the heat on Pakistan

    Hasan Suroor in THE HINDU

    While Pakistan was still trying to make sense of what happened in Lahore, it found itself dragged through the mud and lectured on why instead of sympathy it needed some old-fashioned flogging.

    Increasingly, the story of the West’s complicated love-hate relationship with Pakistan is becoming less and less about love, and its reaction to the Lahore terror attack on Sri Lankan cricketers illustrates how much the post-9/11 honeymoon has gone sour.

    If Islamabad expected a degree of support from its western allies in its moment of grief, it must have been terribly disappointed. It is hard to recall very many occasions — none, in fact, in recent memory — when a country still reeling under the impact of a terror attack has been so rudely treated by its allies as Pakistan after the Lahore tragedy.

    Beyond the mandatory expressions of condemnation, there was little sympathy for it. While the country was still trying to make sense of what had happened, it found itself dragged through the mud and lectured on why instead of sympathy it needed some good old-fashioned flogging. The anger in London and Washington — arguably Pakistan’s closest allies — appeared directed not so much against the terrorists as against the Pakistan government which was effectively accused of bringing it upon itself.

    British Foreign Secretary David Miliband lambasted Pakistan’s feuding political leadership, saying if it did not get its act together the country would face a “mortal threat” from internal militancy. “I think that the degree of political disunity that exists at the moment is only contributing to the problem,” he said and warned that a “grave situation” was getting “worse.” The warning from America was grimmer with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton branding Pakistan the “nerve centre” of international terrorism. Terrorists in Pakistan, she confided, could be plotting another attack even as she was speaking. “We must recognise that one, tiny remote corner of the world — the borders of Pakistan — is the nerve centre for extremists who planned 9/11, the bombings in Madrid and London, the assassination of Benazir Bhutto and the recent carnage in Mumbai … They are planning similar attacks right now,” she told NATO Foreign Ministers in Brussels.

    There can be no quibbling about what has been said about Pakistan’s nexus with extremist groups and its approach to terrorism. But doesn’t all this plainspeaking sound so different from the line we heard after 9/11 when the equally valid criticism of America’s record of flirting with elements like Osama bin Laden was contemptuously dismissed as an attempt to deflect attention from the attacks themselves? The argument then was that raising questions about what caused 9/11 at a time when America was under attack meant playing into the hands of terrorists, if not actually justifying acts of terrorism. The former British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, repeatedly and angrily warned against the danger of what he was fond of calling “moral equivalence” when confronted with terrorism.

    So, what’s changed?

    Again, much has been made of the fact that the Lahore attack happened in the “heart” of the city — a “proof,” it is argued, that the Pakistani state has lost “control.” But, hold on, what about 9/11? That too happened in the heart of New York. And didn’t 7/7 happen bang in the heart of the British capital?

    If anything, given America and Britain’s intelligence and security apparatus vastly superior to Pakistan’s (routinely dubbed a “failed” or “failing” state in the western media), the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks represented a far more serious failure of both intelligence and security than the Lahore attack.

    Meanwhile, the British media have been bubbling with dark conspiracy theories based mostly on bazaar gossip including a suggestion that Pakistan may in fact have “engineered” the attacks to cast itself as a victim of terror.

    A lot of play has been given to speculation why the Pakistan cricket team left its hotel seven minutes after Sri Lanka’s “thus avoiding” the terror attack. The sub-text, clearly, is that it might have been an “inside job” with the Pakistani cricketers being deliberately held back while the terrorists set out to attack the Sri Lankans.

    The Times went to town on it with a two-page spread under the dramatic headline, “Seven-minute delay that kept Pakistan’s players from harm.” The questions being asked, it said, were: did the militants know of the delay? How did they get to know the route that the Sri Lankan team was to take? Did they know that the vehicle they attacked was not the Pakistan bus? And how did they manage to overwhelm the police and escape so easily?

    Conspiracy theories may make interesting reading but must they be reported at such length and so seriously? Similar theories about 9/11 were dispatched (and quite rightly) with withering contempt by the same media that now seem to be hanging on to every word uttered by any nutter. Certainly, not a very nice way to treat an ally.

  198. Pingback: Quo Vadis Pakistan? « बातों बातों में….Chai conversations

  199. It is very unfortunate event for Pakistani cricket. People in Pakistan are unhappy due to growing poverty and terrorism. Cricketers are very rich. On the other hand to rich cricket game, this reaction displays poor segment of our society.

  200. Is this used as a quit smoking aid?