The System of Training in Madrasas: Some Aspects in Need of Reform

By Dr. Muhammad Amin (Senior Editor, Dairat ul-Maarif al-Islamiya, University of Punjab, Lahore)*

(Abridged and Translated by Yoginder Sikand)

Today, advocates of madrasa reforms can be divided into broadly two groups. Firstly, external elements and forces and their local agents. Secondly, some people within the madrasa system who genuinely want to improve it and, accordingly, suggest certain measures for reform. The positions of these two groups need to be clearly distinguished from each other. External forces call for changes in the madrasa system in accordance with their anti-religious agenda, while we who call for change in the system do so to make it better serve its religious purposes. Thus, if critics like us may not agree with some aspects of the present madrasa system it is certainly not because we want to harm or undermine it. Rather, the intention is to make the madrasa system more effective in meeting its goals and also so that madrasas can produce ulema who can play a more effective religious role in society.

The Meaning and Importance of Tarbiyat (Training)

What is termed ‘training’ in educational terminology can be equated with the shariah term tazkiya. In Arabic, the root of the term tazkiya has two meanings: firstly, to purify something, and, secondly, to burnish something and make it prosper or develop. The aim of education must be to purify one’s self (nafs) of all impure beliefs, deeds and blemishes of character, and to develop those good qualities that the shariah upholds. In the Quran God says that He has sent all His prophets for precisely this purpose of tazkiya of human beings. Education is not simply the acquisition of knowledge, because that cannot be an end in itself. Rather, the aim of education is righteous actions based on knowledge. This means that education aims at purification of the self. Thus, God says in the Quran, ‘Truly, he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it’  (Surah Ash-Shams, 9-10).  In other words, our welfare depends on tazkiya. The concept of welfare in Islam is a comprehensive one. It includes both religious as well as worldly success. By this is meant gaining felicity in the Hereafter and also leading one’s life in this world in obedience to God. Thus, tazkiya denotes the training of one’s self in such a manner that one obeys God easily and willingly and abides by His laws.

God has sent the Quran as a means for the tazkiya of human beings, and it also serves as a source of knowledge. The human personality that the Quran desires can be developed if one’s knowledge and moral training are based on the Quran and if this is done with wisdom. It is the path to the attainment of excellence (ahsan) by abiding, in the best way, by God’s laws.

The question thus arises that if this moral training is so important, why is it ignored in our educational institutions and not given practical importance? There are several reasons for this. Firstly, many parents are not even aware of the importance of  proper training of their children. They think that their responsibility is limited to providing them good food and clothes and sending them to schools, colleges and or madrasas, and they have no more concern for their moral development. It is as if they have no other duty than to provide them with external and physical necessities. However, most important from the point of the needs of children is that parents should be concerned about their character development and do what they can to ensure that this happens in the right manner. These days children go to school in the mornings, come back home in the evenings, then go for private tuitions and, after that, sit glued to the television along with their parents. Many parents do not give more time than this to their children. The reason is that parents do not even realise that the proper training of their children is their responsibility.

Another reason is that teachers have also become negligent of the need for the proper training of their students, although this, rather than simply providing information to their students, should be their actual work. And this responsibility of teachers becomes even more crucial today, when television and other such things are playing havoc with morality. There is a pressing need for teachers to give greater stress to the students’ appropriate training in our educational institutions today, particularly in madrasas.

The Types of Tarbiyat

Tarbiyat can be further classified into different types: religious training, intellectual training, administrative training, physical training, and so on.

Religious Training

Islam provides guidance and laws for four broad spheres: beliefs (aqaid), worship (ibadat), morals and manners (ilhlaq-o-adab) and social affairs (muamilat). Beliefs, obviously, provide the foundation; worship is about the relation between the slave and God, the Sustainer; while morals, manners, laws and principles guiding social affairs have to do with relations between and among people. Proper religious training requires that all four of these spheres must be paid attention to, so that students can seek to progress in all of them. Among our religious circles there is considerable misunderstanding in matters concerning religious training. For instance, the institution of Sufism, which emerged for the purpose of tazkiya and tarbiyat, now gives particular stress to recitation of litanies (zikr) and to ritual worship (ibadat), and relatively little attention to morals. I do not belittle the importance of these things, but there is need for a balanced form of religious training. Worship surely is important, but is properly observing the rules and principles related to social affairs unimportant? Is lying unimportant, or going against one’s word or being cruel to one’s wife and children? These are also important issues, about which God and the Prophet have provided rules and laws. So, in the name of religious training to give importance to some things and not to others is an unbalanced approach from the religious point of view.

When discussing religious training, the proper manner of conducting one’s day-to-day affairs also needs to be stressed. For instance, the issue of punctuality. I have noted that this is not respected in religious functions, whereas this is the first thing that we learn about our daily worship. As soon as it is time for congregational prayers, people look at their watches. Praise be to God, this shows that we are punctual at least as far as prayers are concerned.  But the question is:  Why does this not become our habit in other matters as well? If punctuality is commanded by the shariah in matters of prayer, why not in other matters also? In the congregational prayers, worshippers should pray in straight lines. This means that God wants us to inculcate in ourselves a sense of unity, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with each other. Why, then, is this virtue that the shariah wants to promote through prayer ignored in other spheres of life?

Intellectual Training

Intellectual training includes several things, such as freedom of thought, developing oratory and writing skills, use of library facilities, exposure through educational tours and so on. Take the question of the freedom of thought first. This is also a basic religious foundation. This is evident from several episodes of the life of the Prophet, who is a model for us all. He himself encouraged his companions to think for themselves. Thus, for instance, during the battle of Badr, Hazrat Habab bin Manzar, a companion of the Prophet, asked him if he had decided that his army should halt at a particular place on the basis of Divine revelation. The Prophet replied in the negative. The companion then suggested that the place was not appropriate. A similar incident took place during the battle of Ahzab. The Prophet thought that the matter could be solved by entering into some sort of give-and-take with the Jews. When the leaders of the Ansars of Medina heard of this, they said to him that if this was a commandment based on Divine revelation they would willingly accept it, but that if this was just a proposal on the part of the Prophet they did not agree with it. The Prophet accepted then their suggestion. Take the case of the woman Hazrat Burairah, whose husband Mughith used to roam around like a mad man. He followed her, crying profusely, desiring that their marriage should remain intact because since Hazrat Burairah had been freed from slavery her marriage had been dissolved. When the companions of the Prophet approached the Prophet about this, he called Hazrat Burairah and advised her to maintain her marriage with Mughith. She asked the Prophet if this was command, to which he answered that it was not an order but a request. In response, Hazrat Burairah asked for forgiveness, but said that she did not want to remain married to the man.

So, undoubtedly the shariah envisages the highest form of obedience. But this does not contradict freedom of thought, and this the Prophet explained to his companions on different occasions. The companions rendered unconditional obedience to the Prophet and, in that, present a model for us to seek to emulate. At the same time, our religion stands for the freedom of thought. This does not go against the unconditional obedience of God and the Prophet. We should obey [God and the Prophet] without any reservations and with full zeal, but Islam does not teach us to close tightly shut the doors of our hearts and minds and to stop thinking.

In relating this question of freedom of thought to the system of madrasa education, three issues are of particular concern and need to be urgently addressed. The first relates to the aim of madrasa education, the second to the madrasa curriculum and the third to the status of sect or school of thought in Islam.

The Aim of Madrasa Education

Today, most people associated with madrasas think that the aim of these institutions is simply to produce maulvis to staff mosques and madrasas. I think this is a limited approach. The classical Islamic tradition of learning did not know any dualism, any strict division between the ‘religious’ and the ‘worldly’. The distinction between the two, with madrasas coming to specialise only in the former, was a product of the changes bought about by the British conquest. Before that, the dars-i nizami curriculum, which is today used in most madrasas, provided the basis of the educational system that also produced government officials, such as administrators and judges, as well as doctors. When the British captured power and put an end to Muslim rule, the madrasa system was badly hit. Many ulema who opposed the British were brutally killed and the endowed properties through which the madrasas used to finance themselves were confiscated. English replaced Persian as the official language, and so those who had been trained in Persian and Arabic through the madrasas were rendered unemployed. This explains the popular saying that emerged at this time: ‘Study Persian and you will be good only for selling oil’.

At this critical juncture, some ulema decided to set up a chain of madrasas in order to save whatever they could of the Islamic tradition of learning, and to enable people to follow the rules of Islam at least in their private sphere. But the British are no longer here, and so there is no reason why madrasas should not expand beyond simply producing ulema for mosques and madrasas, although, of course, that is also necessary.

The Madrasa Curriculum

Once the aims of madrasa education expand, the madrasa curriculum will broaden on its own. In colleges and universities, before every semester, professors meet and discuss and then decide what they will be teaching. This is left to them, and they are not forced to teach anything against their will. The curriculum is not, or at least should not be, something static. At the time of the Prophet, the course of learning was only the Quran. After his demise, Hadith also began being taught. After that, fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) was added, and, a century later, the teaching of the principles of fiqh (usul al-fiqh) was introduced. In the face of the challenge of Greek philosophy, logic later came to be added to the curriculum. So, in other words, the curriculum is no holy cow. It always changes in accordance with the needs of the times and of society. Some parts of the madrasa curriculum, such as the Quran and Hadith, will obviously never change, as also the Arabic language since our religious scriptures are in that language. But Persian, which continues to be taught in the madrasas, does not have any sanctity. It was important at one time, when it was the official or court language and a key to employment. But today Persian is not the medium of communication in the country. So, there are some things in the curriculum which must be seen from this angle. To repeat, by itself the curriculum does not have sanctity. The only aim of the curriculum is to produce such learned and effective ulema who can serve the religious needs of society and mould peoples’ character and life in accordance with the demands of the faith.

If one looks at the madrasa curriculum with all these issues in mind, a number of drawbacks or limitations are evident. Leave aside the agenda of the West when it talks of madrasa reforms. Is it not necessary for us to understand this world? Imam Ghazali felt compelled to study Greek philosophy so as to rebut it. Then, why don’t we understand that today we should study Western philosophy in order to combat it? If you do not understand the philosophy of the West, how can you rebut it? That is why we ourselves need to study other prevailing philosophies. Just as in the medieval ages, Greek philosophy posed itself as a major challenge, today the challenge and the source of strife is Western philosophy. How, then, can the ulema say that it is useless to study English? If you do not study English, how will you know what your opponent thinks and how that thought should be combated?

Another drawback of the present madrasa curriculum is that the Quran does not have the central place in it that it should enjoy. Madrasas offer specialisation in Hadith, but why not in the Quran? Is the Quran less important than Hadith? And then, madrasas generally teach the Quran and Hadith from a jurisprudential angle, and give very little importance to the message and philosophy of the Quran and Hadith. Even in the teaching of fiqh a wrong or tendentious approach is adopted, simply in order to defend a particular school of jurisprudence. Further, most madrasa students do not know how to write and read Arabic properly. All these aspects of the curriculum are in urgent need of reform.

The Status of Sect or School of Thought

Unfortunately, many of us equate one’s school of thought (maslak) with religion (din) itself. I am not advocating that people should stop adhering to a particular school of thought. In matters of jurisprudence and theology, everyone follows some school or the other. This is not something strange. But a school of thought is not religion itself; it is simply something based on ijtihad or human reflection on the primary sources of religion. Its status is that of an opinion. Divisions based on school of thought have become unnecessarily acute in our society, and, in some circles, have even become the excuse for bloodshed. Scores of people have been killed as a result of this, although the real cause might be something else. In this regard, the ulema need to adopt a more mature approach.

Research

Madrasas need to engage in research, including specialised research, in matters of religion. It is pointless simply repeating what has been written before. Once, a young friend of mine who teaches in a madrasa in Lahore told me that he had starting doing some writing and research.  He asked me to pray for his success. I told him that this was good news, and asked him what he was writing about. He replied that he was preparing a book of supplications. I asked him what he planned to do after that. His answer was that he would later work on a book about prayer. I don’t say that this is not a form of service of the faith, but the question is: Is it an appropriate use of one’s capacities and time to repeatedly write about the same sorts of issues?

In this regard, let me cite a personal experience. I once wrote to a professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, telling him that I wanted to work on a doctoral thesis. He asked me to send him a list of topics on which I wanted to research. I said that I wanted to work on a comparative study of ijtihad in Islam and law-making in the West. The professor wanted to know what new aspect of ijtihad I could work on because, he said, already much work had been done on the subject. When I insisted that I wanted to work on precisely this issue, he replied asking me what I knew about Western law. He also requested me to send him a four-page note on the scope of ijtihad. I worked on this note and sent it to him. He responded by saying that my knowledge of Western law was not deep enough for me to do a Ph.D. on the subject, and that my elaboration of the scope of ijtihad did not appeal to him. What new thing, he asked me, could I do or bring out with my proposed research on the subject?

So, what I mean to say is that we are simply reproducing things. Take any of our literature and see. It contains nothing new. It does not discuss new issues. So, until madrasas change their approach to research and come up with new things, the lacunae in the field of Islamic scholarly research cannot be addressed.

Proper library facilities are indispensible for proper research, but most madrasas lack libraries. In those few madrasas that do have libraries, students generally do not use their facilities. Few madrasas subscribe to learned journals and even newspapers. This has to change. Madrasas must have a compulsory library period for all students. In addition, so that they may learn more about their environment, they should be taken on educational tours. We have to widen their intellectual horizons. It is an essential condition for a mufti and a mujtahid, people well-versed in Islamic law, to be aware of contemporary developments in the world so that they can relate Islam and the shariah to them. After all, it is not possible for anyone who does not know about the conditions around him and in the world at large to engage in ijtihad.

Oratory and Writing Skills

Promoting the oratory and writing skills of students is necessary for them to be able to invite people to the faith and provide them proper guidance. Unfortunately, almost nothing is done in the madrasas to encourage the students’ writing skills. Many madrasa students stop reading books after they graduate. Our students must be encouraged to write for newspapers so that they can get their views across to a wide readership.

At a meeting of ulema I once made a point which everyone agreed with. I said that I had heard Friday sermons in mosques in various localities in Lahore and found that 90 per cent of the people enter the mosque after the second call to prayer (azan), that is after the sermon is delivered. This is to say that they come only to pray, not to hear the sermons. Why is it that people do not want to listen to the sermons of the ulema? The truth is that it is the duty of the ulema to guide society along the lines of religion, and if they do not do so they have failed. To be effective, it cannot be that the ulema and ‘modern’ educated people operate on different wave-lengths and think in entirely different ways.

Administrative Affairs

Madrasas should restructure their administrative affairs in such a way as to encourage students to develop leadership qualities. For this they should entrust students with certain administrative tasks. This will help them become more self-reliant, confident, disciplined and capable. Madrasas should also provide facilities for the physical development of their students in the form of games and sports.

Practical Framework for Training

For the sort of wide-ranging reforms that I have suggested above, the managers and teachers of the madrasas have a crucial role to play. In turn, for this the managers and teachers themselves have to be suitably trained. They should realise that they are not just teachers but also guides for the students and that they have the duty to provide proper training to them and develop their character. Students look upon their teachers as models to emulate, and they follow their teachers’ example. They think as their teachers’ do. Hence, there is an urgent need for training the teachers, both in teaching methods as well as in terms of their thinking so that they themselves follow religion in the right way and inspire their students to do so, too. They must be inspired by sincerity and concern for the welfare of their students. The students must feel that the teachers relate to them with love and concern. No one can be taught through the force of a stick. Nor can force inspire students to develop those capacities that can be nurtured through love and care. Unfortunately, however, students are routinely punished in some madrasas, particularly in the classes devoted to the memorisation of the Quran. This is a wrong method. Teachers must relate to the students through softness, care and love so that they are inspired to learn, and that they do so not because they are commanded to but, rather, because they themselves want to.

Another distressing issue is that no specified time is apportioned in the madrasas for the proper moral training of their students. Madrasas should have separate periods for this, and it should be taught as a separate, compulsory subject for the students. Madrasas need to develop a separate curriculum for the subject. Some Sufi texts are already included in the madrasa curriculum, and this can be supplemented with selections from the writings of Sufi scholars like Imam Ghazali and Shah Waliullah. Some popular Sufi writings contain certain errors, and so more appropriate Sufi texts can be chosen.

Madrasas should set up committees whose concern should be the moral training of their students. These should be headed by madrasa rectors or senior teachers and should also include some students as well as teachers. The committee can develop appropriate programmes and events for the entire academic year to encourage the proper moral training of students. Students who excel in terms of moral behaviour can be given prizes or given extra marks.

*

In conclusion, I wish to state that religion does not lie simply in books. It takes the form of a living fact in society. With God’s grace, Islamic society has retained its continuity over fourteen hundred years and more.  To maintain and strengthen this continuity society must continue to be linked to the faith. The ulema have an important task to play in this regard. Thus, they must have a harmonious relationship with the wider society. For this, they should understand the intellectual, physical and material demands of society.

·       This is an abridged translation of Dr. Muhammad Amin’s paper titled Madaris Ka Nizam-e Tarbiyat: Chand Islah Talab Pahlu, in Shabbir Ahmad Khan Mewati (ed.) Dini Madaris Aur Asr-e Hazir (al-Shariah Academy, Gujranwala, 2007), pp.77-98.

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99 Comments

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99 responses to “The System of Training in Madrasas: Some Aspects in Need of Reform

  1. Sa'ad Abbasi

    An exhaustive essay on madrassa reforms.
    But the question that was not really answered in this paper why is it the madrassa that needs to be reformed. Is madrassa the only problem whose correction will bring forth a bliss?
    Today’s madrassa is a product of 15 centuries of tradition. Starting from the ashab-e-sufa to Nizam ul mulk Tusi to Deoband.Out of these 15 centuries 13 relate to a liberal espuosal of knowledge and learning and 2 to a crtain reactionary attitude which was product of British oppression, Deoband essentially is product of these reactionary years.
    This reactionary strand was further exploited by interested parties, firstly to check the spread of iranian revolution and latter to check communism. Couple this reactionary attitude and exploitation with bad economics and the end result is today’s madrassa.
    Those who profess madrassa reform must also look at the external factors shaping the madrassa and try to correct those wrongs as well. Without a comprehensive approach any reform or attempted reform of the madrassa will only confound the problem and most likely will give birth to another much more reactionary strain of madrassa.

  2. YLH

    The problem with madrassahs today is that they’ve been confined rote memorization of Quran, Hadith a few books on religion.

    Correct me if I am wrong but at one time the real Madrassahs taught rhetoric, greek philosophy and even mathematics in addition to the Islamic knowledge.

    Madrassahs were thus the equivalent of Church sponsored universities and colleges, like Trinity, like Christchurch.

    So what happened? Why have they become centers of ignorance now? Why are they giving Islam a bad name? Should we even allow them to continue as they are because they’ve done irreparable damage to Islam as well as Pakistan by spreading extremism.
    Madrassah reform is key… Perhaps the whole issue of Madrassahs should be taken away from mullah hands and given to such scholars as Dr. Syed Noman-ul-Haq and Allama Javed Ahmed Ghamidi.

  3. there is a Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH) that the act of virtue is the one that satisfies your soul.
    But the condition for getting such verification from your soul is to purify it and be connected to it. do not let it die and it will lead you to the right path.

  4. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH : Again you and your impressions!
    Today’s madrassa curriculum includes subjects like Goegrapghy, grammer, rhetoric, logic, poetry , prose in Urdu, Persian and Arabic and Quran and Hadith and fiqh. The specialised courses offered by the madarriss include Journalism , Economics, Modern Geography, Astronomy, Jurisprudence, Law and Legal System.
    Some of the poetry taught in these madrassas can easily be labeled scandalous by conservative standards. The ancient arabic poet Imra-ul-Qais is an integral part of madrassa curriculum whose poetry is esentially about lustfull love. His poem “Hamasa” which is the first taught poem in the subject opens with the verse
    “Oh my stead stop for we have reached the spot where i last spent a blissful night with my love. Stop so that I can reminence and weep for the pleasures lost”
    This is Arabic poetry, and those who are not familiar with the language or the madrassa readily assume that since its Arabic it must be the Quran.
    The ills that are being associated with the madrassa are not a product of the madrassa but are the product of a skewed social,economic and political structures of the country.

  5. YLH

    Yawn.

    Saad I am not interested in discussing anything with you …you are an apologist for Islamist bigotry and backwardness.

    I have on good authority what they teach over there at Haqqania … Or the myriad of other madrassahs in the region and it aint what you wish to portray …

    A pig with lipstick still isn’t pretty.

  6. zak

    this article is interesting and http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2008/newsbeataug.htm

    so is Tariq Rahmans research on the rapid growth in madrassahs post 1980, the difference between madrassahs in india and other countries and Pakistan is also telling. Unfortunately the opportunity to launch a masive reform post septem 11 was wasted as Musharraf and his allies decided to continue the 80’s policy of preferring right wingers over progressive forces and wanting to keep some assets ready for afghanistan again..

  7. Vandana

    YLH and Saad.Most probably you both are right.There exist all types of madrasas .There are the ones that provide religious education,those that provide education+ religious instruction and those that teach only bigotry via a narrow version of Islam that can not accomodate debate and free thought.Taliban come to mind when thinking of the last type.


  8. The problem with madrassahs today is that they’ve been confined rote memorization of Quran, Hadith a few books on religion.

    Such ignorance emerge from those who never visited any Madrassah. Yasser, no you don’t know about Madrassahs just like you don’t know about Jinnah.

    Why don’t anti-Madrassah cult publish the syllabus of Madrassah to put some weight in their statements?

    No yasser, Yawning can’t make you run away or help to cover your ignorance on various matters.


  9. …you are an apologist for Islamist bigotry and backwardness.

    A person who uses such tone yet die to label himself modern,progressive and educated should not be engaged in any forum for any sort of discussion.

    Yasser your tone itself shows your belonging , yo still belong to age of Jahiliya rather part of 21st Century. Try t0 be an ideal than curse others. It would help you to build image among your opponents.

  10. PMA

    “Today’s madrassa curriculum includes subjects like Geography, grammar, rhetoric, logic, poetry , prose in Urdu, Persian and Arabic and Quran and Hadith and fiqh. The specialised courses offered by the madarriss include Journalism , Economics, Modern Geography, Astronomy, Jurisprudence, Law and Legal System.”

    Mr. Sa’ad Abbasi: Why Islamic madrassa education system leaves out subjects like Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Mathematics, History, Social Studies and English at the primary, middle and secondary education levels. Is it possible to understand Astronomy without Physics & Economics without Mathematics. By “Law and Legal System” you must have meant only Islamic Law and Legal System. How well-equipped is a Madrassa Graduate to cope with the demands of the modern-day life. Could Islamic Madrassa Education System be held responsible for the Scientific and Technical backwardness of our Pakistani people. Please shine some light on these issues if you can. Thanks.

  11. PMA

    “Persian, which continues to be taught in the madrasas, does not have any sanctity. It was important at one time, when it was the official or court language and a key to employment. But today Persian is not the medium of communication in the country.”

    There is a wealth of knowledge in all subjects that exists in Persian language. Our original historic manuscripts worth eight hundred years are in Persian language. Persian is closely related to Pashto, Balochi and Urdu languages spoken in Pakistan. It is surprising that author sees no use of Persian language in Pakistani education systems.

  12. YLH

    Adnan siddiqui,

    You’ve been shamed so many times on the net and yet you keep crawling back like the “black knight” of the monty python fame.

    You are shameless and I can’t help you. Your jahalat is self evident.

  13. aliarqam

    Samiul Haq proudly was announcing that TAALIBAN are the products of his Madressas…
    One can Laugh for Abbasi’s Claim…
    “Today’s madrassa curriculum includes subjects like Goegrapghy, grammer, rhetoric, logic, poetry , prose in Urdu, Persian and Arabic and Quran and Hadith and fiqh. The specialised courses offered by the madarriss include Journalism , Economics, Modern Geography, Astronomy, Jurisprudence, Law and Legal System.”
    I humbly request to show us some names in the field of Goegrapghy, grammer, rhetoric, logic, poetry , prose in Urdu, Persian literature and Arabic literature,Journalism , Economics, Modern Geography, Astronomy, Jurisprudence, Law and Legal System…who have been taught in these Madressas…
    Pioneer of struggle against British Imperialism
    Shiekhul Hind Mehmoodul Hasan has once confessed that
    “Aaj Mujhe apney Dard K Ghamkhaar Madaaris o Makaatib mey kam owr Colleges and Universities mey Ziada Nazar arahey hein…”

  14. YLH, LOL!

    You are whinining like a chicken now. I don’t get where I was “shamed”? All I see you start crying if someone shows you mirror. Why don’t you give proof or you are just willing to troll jut like you troll about Jinnah on forums or in papers like “the news” ?;).

    @PMA: Can you provide syllabus of Fedral Madaris organization that could put some weight in your statement? What Mr.saad said is 100% True. Here in Karachi Darul Uloom of Taqi Usmani sb has computer labs along with library of all subjects. No madrassah just teach Islam only. Unlike so called private schools, they teach logic,philosophy and many other subjects. Try to seek truth please!

    As far as asking why don’t they teach physics ec. I ask why private schools never taught me Fiqh,Hadiths rather polluted me with “Islamiat” which had nothing worthy enough to understand Islam.

    I ask why medical colleges don’t teach about Engineering subjects? I can then call all medical colleges “radical” just because they don’t teach Engineering? eh.

    Now before some champ give me example of some madarasash in village, he must come have courage to refute that there are “NO” ghost schools in various villages of Pakistan. Why is like that there are no O/A level schools in villages? why do I see branches of City schools in big cities only?

    Instead of accusing others, you should blame the administration of so called “modern” schools management who are more busy in sucking money than providing education. Try to raise voice for those graduates who are committing suicide due to non-availability of jobs.

    Accusing something without providing any proof sounds sweet among kids but not reality otherwise people would not never take you guys seriously no matter some “YLH” _sacrifice_ his life to impose lies.

  15. YLH

    Thank god for Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and the Aligarh movement for bringing Muslims out of the madrassah.

  16. YLH

    Adnan mian,

    No wonder You are a joke everywhere you interact.

    Proof is what is generally acceptable and not what you think is proof in your whacko sense of reality.


  17. TAALIBAN are the products of his Madressas…

    Just like Liberals are product of US ideology and continue to preach it here and there. How’s that?

    Ali Arqam, Ironically your “US” friends are willing to shake hand with Talibans. They are not whining about “This is our war” because they know how to run foreign policy by using puppets in form of liberals who appear as “Shah se zyda shah k Wafdar” on every platform. Where will you guys go and what will you do if US finally sign some treaty with Talibans and let them “officially” rule over Afghanistan? Will you guys hide in some bin or bravely condemn US decisions WITHIN US by protesting on roads?

    I remind the mohwara for you guys:

    “Teen mey rahay na Tera mey” 😉


  18. Proof is what is generally acceptable and not what you think is proof in your whacko sense of reality.

    ehhe acha chalo you are right. Happy now? now wipe your nosy and sit quite and read what your elders discussing here.

  19. YLH

    And ofcourse I don’t know as much about Jinnah and his ideas as much as you …

    After all you base your knowledge on such authentic sources as muasharti uloom, mutalay-e-pakistan and nazaria pakistan foundation.

    How could sources like Transfer of Power Papers, Jinnah papers, Jinnah’s own correspondence, scholars like Ayesha Jalal, Seervai, Ajeet Javed, Eqbal Ahmad, Ian Bryant Wells and Hamza Alavi that I quote even compare to nauvin aur dasween ki Mutalay-e-Pakistan?

    How silly of me.

  20. YLH

    Learn to spell quiet first my friend.

    And I find it strange that you are accusing Arqam of being pro-US.

    You are waqai whacko.

  21. Aliarqam

    @YLH
    These so called anti US….who are happy that US is agree to a dialogue to them…and they will be happy when under the flag of so called Khilafat…Transnational Corporation will have been given the opportunity to get the huge oil and gas reserves…and give some Khairat o Sadaqaat to them…for runing their Khilafat and meassure the beards of local drivers by the glass of lantern…approximately 4 or 5 inches long…standard size…
    Who is pro-US….???

    Taqi Usmani….the man who is serving the Banks with the Label…
    ISLAAMI….what a joke…??
    U neem Mullahss are more dangerous than others…..
    Go and ask other fellows Molvis about Taqi Usmani….


  22. These so called anti US….who are happy that US is agree to a dialogue to

    No, it gives me laugh how liberals play in hands of right wing Americans back in DC. I am neither happy nor sad. I am just enjoying the whole situation.

    And Arqam Mian, How servinv banks(without Interest) irks you? I don;t understand you guys, If some molvi spends life in a Masjid, you guys get irked, if some molvi tries to implement Islam in financial sector, still you people whine. Heck, do you guys ever feel peace in your life? lol

    You guys seriously need to see this video. may it help you to seek some truth:

    http://tinyurl.com/53jfut

  23. Aliarqam

    @Barkhurdar Adnan

    If someone is used as a tout for the arab shiekhs….by trying to give legitimacy to the institutions of banks by Islamization….it’s the same hypocricy as amirul maumineen Zia’s attempts to Islamize the system by using the terms as Majlis e Shuraa etc…
    If U have a little knowledge of Islam and Its Economic principles…then study Molana Taseen,Zarwali khan,Mufti Habibullah and Even Wifaqul Madaris opinion about Taqi Usmani’s efforts of Islamizing the banks…. Then come and tell me….
    U Neem Mullah’s know nothing except blaming and accusing….
    Advocating the Madressas…who are built on Arab’s investments….as recruiting centres for the holy cause of American War….
    And Man….if U wanma know How real Madressas work….then judge these buildings named as Madressas…by the Eight Principles known as Usool e Hasht Gaana described by The great Molana Qasim Nanotvi…
    If U couldnt find it with your guru molvis then ask me I will tell U….
    U can blame YLH…for little knowledge abt Madressas but not me…
    And as YLH Said…little knowledge is the problem with peoples like U….

  24. Nadia

    Obviously, as Vandana said, there are a variety of madares. Just as there are a variety of maulvis and owners, not to mention their financiers.
    But it shoud not be so. All madrassas should be brought under the strictist guidelines of the Mininstry of Education.
    ‘Worldly’ subjects must be given the highest priority. Motives of financiers must be scrutinized.
    At the same time, all effort has to be made to make at least primary education offered by government available to all. And, where we can afford it, with free lunch. If we do this with primary education, very few would venture into madrassas later on. We have to do this for the sake of our future, if not for the sake of doing good.

  25. azhar aslam

    guys

    aren’t any shades of greys between the black and white of ” liberal” and ”islamists” muslims ?

  26. azhar aslam

    guys

    aren’t there any shades of greys between the black and white of ” liberal” and ”islamists” muslims ?

  27. Nadia

    Azhar Aslam,
    About ‘liberal’ vs. ‘islamist’, you’re right; there are nuances and shades from one person to the next. I want to share with all what an Iranian lady told me. She said she was very sad that all through the demonstrations against the Shah, she never once stopped to ask the person next to her what his idea of ‘the islamic republic’ was. She said the day when she was harrassed by the guards for not covering her hair, is when she realized she had been actually demonstrating against herself.
    Why should we trust children to the unknown when it is the job of the state to provide for education, or, private schools who keep high standards?


  28. legitimacy to the institutions of banks by Islamization

    Atleast you consider Banking(Interest) is Haram in Islam. It means there was still hope for improvement.

    But then you said:


    U Neem Mullah’s

    here you lost the track. Now I am a molvi, tomorrow you will call me a taliban and terrorist. Great going son. you are not sounding right wing religious zealots who don’t hesitate to call Kafir to every one who disagrees with them.

    As I always say that Pakistan needs to getrid of fascists from leftist secularists/liberals group and right wing zealots. Both are pain in neck for Pakistani society and both trying to impose their own version of Islam. Thankfully this residue doesn’t exist among masses otherwise Pakistan could be in great trouble.

  29. s/sounding right wing /sounding different than right wing

  30. YLH

    Pray tell… what secular liberals pro-US or anti-US ever carried out terror attacks in Pakistan?

    Also… Ali Arqam is the follower and devotee of Obaidullah Sindhi… read a bit about him. It will open your eyes…

  31. Vandana

    Nadia your comment made me think about how people always seem to get swept up in the heat of the moment and give little thought to what they are being led into.There is a saying “be careful of what you wish for.”
    Regarding madrasas,Pakistan would do well by looking to its south asian identity instead of trying to link up with the Arabs.The Arabs ‘unearned oil wealth”has done more damage to the Muslim world than is generally acknowledged.

  32. Sa'ad Abbasi

    PMA: The reduction of sciences from the madrassa curriculum has to do with the history of the islamic world in last two centuries. One must not forget that it were these madrassas which helped perfecting of the gregorian calendar and it was in the courtyard of such madrassas that theories of Relativity and origins of Species were propounded discussed and recorded much before Einstien nd Darwin.
    In the modern world one has to consider “what exactly is the ultimate objective of madrassa? The objective is to produce, mullahs, muazzins khatibs, mufassareens and scholars in theology and Islamic History.
    When people suggest that the madrassa should teach sciences they should also ask the Medical colleges to teach painting and sculpture and Music!
    YLH: There is no point in discussing anything with you, I reached that conclusion long ago because
    you have limited brain and that too is closed and you show no desire to learn or improve.
    But I have to check and expose the lies that you spread through your writings.

  33. Sa'ad Abbasi

    Ali Arqam :I didnt get your question what do you humbly request?

  34. YLH

    Fine technique you’ve got. You can’t disprove anything I write … so you claim that they are lies.
    My friend… you need to prove your allegations… not merely allege.

  35. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH; Allegation serves a purpose, it makes an unsuspecting youth reading you think of the probability of another side of the story and for the moment that serves the purpose. Your article on understanding gandhi is a point in case. It was ooutrightly absurd, it superficially connected unconnectable dots. It showed how ignorent you are of humman psycology and history. Being ignorent is not a problem we all have our limitations. But atleast some of us think about what we read before jumping to conclusions.
    You have shown a similar attitude on madrassas, do you know how madrassas came about? did you ever gave a serious thought to the social and communal requirements that the madrassa in its present form is serving? Have you even considered the consequences of tinkering with the madrassa and the mosque? I dont think so.
    You could have told yourself “yes there is something i dont know about and it will serve me to learn about it before taking a position” but you didnt do that, you just jumped into the fray shouting Oh i know all because i went to rutgurs and can write passable English and have read some books on Jinnah.
    Grow up boy and open your mind.

  36. YLH

    Sa’ad mian

    Are you hiding behind Gandhi because you think that the liberals here will support you because of what I wrote against him (which is all based on his own collected works)? Is this a diversion from the fact that you’ve failed to prove a single point you made about the Madrassahs above…

    Allegation serves a purpose, it makes an unsuspecting youth reading you think of the probability of another side of the story and for the moment that serves the purpose.

    So in other words you can’t prove me wrong but you will attack my credibility without any reason.
    The youth of today are not idiots… they will not buy your crap.

    Thanks for admitting that you are nothing but hot air.

  37. YLH

    And before you comment on the credentials of others, one hopes you would acquaint yourself with the use of a spellchecker.

  38. YLH

    And missed this gem:

    Have you even considered the consequences of tinkering with the madrassa and the mosque? I dont think so.

    Is this a threat?


  39. devotee of Obaidullah Sindhi

    So does it make him “sacred” eh?

  40. Saad Abbasi sahab, the time you give some some substances to these so called champs, they start abusing and targetting you as ignorant,Mullah or what not. Don’t give up and don’t take these guys seriously. They are soldiers on Internet only, in reality nobody listen them.

  41. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH; That comment about the spell check:)
    I REST MY CASE.

  42. YLH

    Dear Saad,

    You ought to have rested your case a long time ago as you had no case. Now I am not going to let you rest your case.

    I await substantiation of your allegations against me. This time… hold the threats. The personal nature of your comments… the accusations of ignorance (or “ignorent” as you said), “limited brain”… pale in comparison to my very factual and timely advice to you i.e. use a spell check.

    Adnan mian,

    Repeating yourself like a broken record amounts to nothing if you are unable to substantiate even an iota of your claims.

  43. YLH

    Mr. Abbassi further writes:

    it was in the courtyard of such madrassas that theories of Relativity and origins of Species were propounded discussed and recorded much before Einstien nd Darwin

    One would like to believe this… could you substantiate this with some piece of work or source i.e. Muslims had discovered both evolution and theory of relativity at Madrassahs a full two centuries before the west.

  44. Majumdar

    Yasser mian/Abbassi sahib,

    We Hindoos had discovered all this and more long before even you Momins had!!! You can get all the details in places like sulekha and HVK.org.

    Regards

  45. YLH

    We await with baited breath the “records” of theory of relativity and evolution as studied in Madrassahs for centuries….

  46. Aliarqam

    Azhar Aslam…
    Am talking of shades b/w black and white…If U have read my comments written here…I have quoted Qasim Nanotvi…and Shiekhul Hind(rmah) but I dont know who these islamists are following….there is a lot of ambiguity about them…are they followers of Wahabis…or following Deobandi school of thought…who claim to be the followers of Waliullah Dehlvi….who is best interpreted by Ubaidullah Sindhi…

  47. Aliarqam

    Madressas are fulfilling the requirements of Paish Imams and Khatib for the Mosques…but If they raise tall Claims of Dunya ki Imaamat…as Iqbal Said…they are not able to construct…as it is not part of their syllabus….

  48. PMA

    Mr. Sa’ad Abbasi: Let us agree for a moment about the achievements of the Madrassa Education in the historic past that you have alluded to. Now mind you we are speaking of primary, middle and secondary level education so let us not bring in irrelevant argument of ‘medical’ and ‘engineering’ educations.

    Your answer is and I quote: “The objective is to produce, mullahs, muazzins, khatibs, mufassareens and scholars in theology and Islamic History.” How many ‘mullahs, muazzans and khatibs’ does Pakistan need? Should a Mullah be ignorent of the basic education that all children need?

    The unfortunate part is that a Madrassa graduate is a product of a ‘closed system’ with a narrow myopic view of the world. The poor student is ill equipped to cope with the realities and demands of the modern world. The best that person can do is to perpetuate the same system that he or she itself is victim of.

    Pakistan’s ills are many; too many to list here. Education system, or lack of it, is the biggest crisis facing the nation. But the financiers of madrassa system have their own ulterior motives. They are interested in ‘Arbization’ & ‘Islimization’ of our nation. Today Muslims are the most backward people of the world and Arabs as a group are at the top of the heap.

    Mr. Sa’ad Abbasi, you say and I quote: “The reduction of sciences from the madrassa curriculum has to do with the history of the Islamic world in last two centuries”. You are damn right. The Madrassa Education System has failed our nation. The ‘System’ is not helping us. In fact in the light of daily bomb blasts through out the nation it is hurting us. It is time to regulate mosques and bring Madrassas under government control. Enough is enough.

  49. Qandeel

    Well considering the infantile verbal combat that frequently goes on between some commenters here, it would be wrong to blame just the madrassas for “bad education.”

    Leading to the crucial point I’ve tried making before: madrassas make up 1% of enrolled students, publics schools make up 70%. Some researchers have found comparable levels of stupidity and jingoism between the madrassa and public school students. So, shouldn’t we be more concerned with reforming public schools?

    Also, isn’t this article treating madrassas very generically? There are some in rural areas that are just acting as shelters or orphanages, others are huge sprawling complexes with state of the art technology, and apparently there are some in FATA with guns and suicide jackets for training mujahideen. (I think madrassas run by Jamaat ud Dawa are known to be very modern, teaching all the mainstream subjects taught at public schools, thus blurring the line between the two.) Not to mention the sectarian tilt and political standing of each individual madrassa.

  50. YLH

    Ali,

    To the best of my knowledge, Deobandis are not the followers of Shah Waliullah… Shah Waliullah was steeped in what we associate with the Barelvi tradition.

    Are you perhaps saying this because Syed Ahmed’s right hand man Shah Abdul Aziz was Shah Waliullah’s relation.


  51. Samiul Haq proudly was announcing that TAALIBAN are the products of his Madressas…

    So what if they are product of some Madrassah?
    How old were you when Talibans were ruling(officially) on Afghanistan and they did quite well despite of few mistakes which even done by secular govts in Pakistan and Afghanistan as well.

    This is your Western media report that how Taliban Banned drugs in entire country that even opponents had to admit it. talibans are infamous due to their policies against Afghani women but then in post Taliban era I also read such horrible news:


    Zakia, 35, works as a prostitute. “Now I am free to do my work. Under the Taliban, I would never have been able to do this. The only difference now is that I can work as a prostitute, so I guess I am free to do my work. I’m not happy with this job, but I have to do this because I have no choice,” she says quietly.
    . More here

    Yes I remember Western media published a photo of someone in Burqa in a footbal ground who was being punished, this was horrible but then I saw our secular ,liberal and non-Madrassah graduate Musahrraf abused women of our country not once but many times. Also how can we forgot the secular dictator acted like a pimp by selling Aafia Siddiqui to US but noone dared to condemn all acts by dictator since it was done by their own “elders”.

    It’s pretty known fact that Talibans had signed a deal with Argentia which was not liked by US becuase in this way it could prosper Afghanistan in future along with past states of USSR. there was no such thing like war on terror etc. It was all about giving punishment since Taliban opted Argenita which was already not in good book of US.
    Come on! even your guys in ruling party know this tactic by US and they shiver that US will crush them one day.

    I know you won’t grasp it at all because you can’t!! Learn to seek truth, it won’t harm you at all otherwise keep crying as it doesn’t hurt anyone either.


  52. Today Muslims are the most backward people of the world and Arabs as a group are at the top of the heap.

    Parvaiz Munir Alvi, in which world have you been living? In Alice’s wonder land. The fact of the matter is that today Arabs are more advanced in field of Information technology than non-Arab Muslims in Pakistan,Bangladesh and Indonesia etc. Arab Eyes is the largest group which have been working in open source IT world. Most of trainers of IBM,Oracle and Microsoft who train Pakistanis within Pakistan are Arabs rather Americans.

    Kindly brush up your knowledge about the matters you want to discuss. It sounds boring when you people repeat same old boring stuff on every forum.

    as far as blaming Madrassah, as usaul you had no proof to prove your point. You have no answer that why your non-Madrassah school administration didn’t pay attention to establish private schools in villages? Forget FATA, visit interior of Sind and Punjab, you hardly find a good school overthere. Why don;t you curse to city school and beacon house Management to open their branches over there? If molvis paneterated successfully then it’s failure of so called educated class who did nothin for villagers.

    Don’t compain like losers, act like winners and do something for poors in rural areas so that you could proudly discuss things here and make your opponents ashamed.

  53. PMA

    “…….today Arabs are more advanced in field of Information technology than non-Arab Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia etc.”

    Mr. Adnan Siddiqi: Arabs more advanced than Pakistanis and Bangladeshis! It does not say much about Arabs, does it? Oh yes the world is littered with the technical & scientific contributions and advancements made by the Arabs and their blind followers. Forgive me for not realizing that IBM, Oracle and Microsoft are Arab and not American companies.

    But you are right. Pakistani governments…..civilian and military…..and citizens like you and me are guilty of ignoring the educational needs of our children. We all are guilty of leaving the field open to the ‘Moulvi’ and allowing Him to poison young minds with hatred and religious bigotry.


  54. Mr. Adnan Siddiqi: Arabs more advanced than Pakistanis and Bangladeshis!

    Let me add,t they are even equivalent on various IT technologies to Americans. You were comparing Arabs vs non-Arabs so I just mentioned other Muslim countries. No , you don’t need to accept my words, a little search on Google would help you to enlighten about many things. Arab has always been better in field of science and technology, be it modern world or ancient “Golden” era.


    Forgive me for not realizing that IBM, Oracle and Microsoft are Arab and not American companies

    I was not expecting such premature statement by person who is not a teen. Do I need to remind you most of Indian revenue is dependent on outsourcing? Or you want to say that there are NO offices of IBM,Oracle ,Google etc in Bangalore and Hyderabad?

    Answer my question, Pakistan has been ruled by non-Molvis and non-Madrassah people for last 61 years. Just for sake of argument I consider Zia’s 11 years dictatorship as an Islamic era. So what after that? I see nothing was done by non-Madrassah guys who make funny faces when speak in English. I see none of the scientific achivements done by them. So where all non-Molvi scholars and researchers have been hibernating? Who’s stopping them to do research? Molvis? No! govt policies? Yes? their own desire to enjoy luxuries in Europe,Americas and other Western regions? Yes!

    Let’s not act like losers and blame for our own weaknesses. When would you and other Pakistanis learn to admit the mistakes done by ourselves? It’s pretty “chicken” to blame others. So far people of you generation and even current lot too has not been able to come out of this phobia. For me it’s quite boring now. I mean, come on bring some creativity. After spending 3 years among you guys on online forums, I have actually memorized the stuff you people put forward to bring some weight in statements. Things like:

    1)Zia did all crap.
    2)Madrassahs are evil
    3)Ijtehad
    4)Jihad is big No no!
    5)Sufism is the best thing(with Dance Masti and Biryani party with pinch of cocaine!)
    6)Bearded and Practised Muslims are backwards
    7)We do need Mullahs(while we have America?)

    Lets agree Zia,Molvis,Madraasah,Bearded Muslims,Deobandi ,Falan Bandi ,Salafis etc all are bad so what you guys brought as alternative which could make you guys proud? All I saw Musharraf ,Zardari and Altaf from left wing who screwed Pakistan more than any Taliban or Molvi.Qazi Hussain just kept himself busy in Dharna Party while left wing guys didn’t leave any chance to screw Pakistan while they were in power. If your guys would have built schools in villages, if non-Molvis had made efforts to gain trust of FATA people and had done investment in those areas as well then no one could turn towards Madrassahs. Madrassahs are successfull and always be successfull due to 1)religious teaching 2)their sound network. Unlike private schools they never made any discrimination between poor and rich. Try to bring some poor guy in City School and I see how do you get admission unless you give a handsome amount. today I read more graduates committing suicides due to inflation than anyone else. Why didn;t you non-Molvis couldn’t even establish a sound system in 61 years? Let me tell you why, because you guys wasted all your efforts to pull others legs,and did nothing.

    SO next time bring some case study which was done for betterment of Pakistan rather kissing up West so that others do take you guys seriously. Frankly it’s quite boring that you guys keep repeating same “Rona” everywhere otherwise as always you are free to rant on various forums to throw up your frustration and helplessness but this is not going to help Pakistanis. This is not going to help you either. Atleast mature guys like you should not copy what young lot has been doing on blogsphere. Try to teach them rather copy them and become a joke.

    Thanks

  55. What's in a Name

    Irrespective of all this bickering that is going on about this article, irrespective of the differences in methods, curriculum and ideological foundations of different madrasas – I think that the suggestions of reform offered by this article are commendable – especially coming from a religious person they might carry more weight for the administrators of madrasas. The suggestion about original research and critical thinking in particular needs attention – the cure for extremism has to come from within and intellectual pursuits might be able to find a solution to extremism – just my personal opinion – extremism is a product of ignorance and suppression of mind, body and soul; removing these hurdles might actually help the society in general and the madrasa students in particular.
    And why not, we might do well by applying these suggestions to public schools and the educational system in general.
    I do not agree with everything said in this article. I cannot, I don’t understand the role of religion and divine guidance for every day life – but that is just my perspective and many many people in the world think otherwise – but I do think that the suggestions in terms of reforming the educational system are worth considering.

  56. PMA

    Mr. Adnan Siddiqi: You are right. Again. You made me laugh when you said: “….non-Madrassah guys who make funny faces when speak in English.”

  57. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH: here are two books that may broaden your horizon and will provide you with all the referrence you need in the matter.
    1) The Lost History by Micheal Hamilton.
    2) Khutbat-e-Bahawalpur by Dr. Hameedullah, this one is in Urdu(can you read urdu?)
    PMA: We need as many Mullahs and Muezzins as there are the mosques in the country, not only that we need hufaz who can teach our children the reading of the Quran and their prayers. Having said that I agree that they are far too many even for that purpose but then is that the fault of the madrassa or the state which is unable to provide free education to all that seek it? problem is not with the madrassa its with other institution of the society and their respective machination which are geared to serve a particular group only. Correct these anomalies and the madrassa will probably disappear completly.
    Adnan Siddiqui: aye to that very apt and detailed comment.

  58. YLH

    Oh ye of broad horizons… could you quote the page numbers on which it is stated that “theory of relativity” and “evolution” were propounded in Islamic madrassahs…

    Waisay I am quite familiar with Dr. Hameedullah’s Khutbat-e-Bahawalpur. Thanks for assuming that I don’t know Urdu … those poor sods who gave me an A for commenting on and memorizing endless poetry of Mirza Ghalib in A Levels must be idiots …

  59. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH: good then, i wonder why you asked for a referrence about origin of species if you are familiar with khutabat-e-bahawalpur?
    Regarding page numbers: do you own reading man stop repeating hearsay. I have shown you the way As salam o alikum.
    PMA: You said madrassa system has failed the nation. i am afraid that is not true, here are few thoughts for your consideration.
    1) Preservation of Urdu language and script.80% of the modern urdu litrature is on Islam with no mean contribution from the madrassah.
    2) Preservation of faith and its tenets. It is because of the madrassa that we are not another Philipines.
    3) All those who are products of madrassa are literate, that means they can both read and write and in most case do that in three languages Urdu, Persian and Arabic.
    So think again have they really failed the nation?

  60. YLH

    What do you expect me to say…

    “Stop You had me at Assalamualaikum

    In other words you have no proof to back up your claim.

    Now if you could kindly tell me the page number of Khutbat-e-Bahawalpur where it says that Madrassahs in the Islamic world had written the original origin of species before Darwin … we can all be on our way.

  61. YLH

    It is because of the madrassa that we are not another Philipines.

    Precisely…. that country has a 7.4 percent average growth rate and is considered an industrialized rising economic powerhouse of Asia… We are at the brink of civil war … and our economy has gone down the gutter… I am glad you agree that it is all because of the Madrassahs.

  62. YLH

    It is because of the madrassa that we are not another Philipines.

    Precisely…. that country has a 7.4 percent average growth rate and is considered an industrialized rising economic powerhouse of Asia… We are at the brink of civil war … and our economy has gone down the gutter… I am glad you agree that it is all because of the Madrassahs.

  63. Majumdar

    Saad Abbasi sahib,

    It is because of the madrassa that we are not another Philipines.

    Correct.

    Maybe that is why Philippines is at Rank #90 on HDI as against 136 for Pak (128 for India), has an adult literacy rate of 92% against 50% for Pak (61% for India) and per capita income PPP of USD 5137 against USD 2370 for Pak.

    http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

    Regards

  64. Majumdar

    Yasser mian,

    He, he, he….

    Some more stuff for Abbasi sahib.

    http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

    Philipines is at 90 on HDI index as against 136 for Pak (128 for India), its adult literacy rate is 92% against 50% for Pak (61% for India), its per capita income is almost twice India or Pak’s. Something certainly they are doing right.

    Regards

  65. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH: yes i want you to say that, and had you been a thinking man you would have said that!
    There are two reasons for not giving you the page numbers
    1) by now you must have guessed that im not particularly fond of you therefore there is no inclination to do the extra effort for you.
    2) I am also convinced that the desire to have the referrnce and page number stems from the Abu Jehl attitude(I get the argument but wont accept it because that would hurt my ego) of yours and not from a genuine desire to learn. Anybody remotely familiar with researching would have no problem finding the referred points specially when the sources have been identified.
    So Assalamoalikum once again.
    Philipines: Stop talking about things you dont know!

  66. YLH

    Okay so I have found a reference Ekwhan-el-sefa and their theory… fascinating… but that is like quoting Mutazilla to prove that orthodox muslims had it right.

    What next… are you going to quote Allama Pervez to prove Madrassahs are providing rationalists?

  67. YLH

    by now you must have guessed that im not particularly fond of you therefore there is no inclination to do the extra effort for you.

    So this is the reason for your failure to produce evidence for your claims… and not the fact that you lied out of your teeth? What a cop out. So in a debate you would not prove your assertions because you are not particularly fond of someone else?

    The truth is that there is nothing in Khutbat-e-Bahawalpur that even remotely proves any of your claims.

  68. aliarqam

    I have read Khutbaat e Bahawalpur…..
    It is a very good book…but if I will quote him these neem mullahs will say…he is not sacred

    @YLH
    It is interesting that Dr. Hamidullah said while answering a question that
    1-Gotum Budh was prophet of God..
    2-Music is not absolutely Haraam in Islam
    3-Having your head covered is not much necessory…

  69. YLH

    And yet another gem from Mr. Abbassi:

    I am also convinced that the desire to have the referrnce and page number stems from the Abu Jehl attitude

    So in other words you drop a name thinking I would not be able to access it… and when I ask you for the exact reference in the book which is easily available in Islamabad … you start calling me Abu Jehl …

  70. YLH

    Ali …

    Indeed… Dr. Hameedullah was one of the greatest scholars of Islam in the 20th century… his progressive and rational interpretation of Islam stands out … along side Allama Parwez’s … Interestingly Hameedullah was also an appointee of Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan to the board of scholars advising the constituent assembly on the constitution of Pakistan. The shelved constitution of 1954 (not 1956) had his significant contribution.

    It is tragic that some people here are trying to use him to justify backwardness of Madrassahs.

  71. aliarqam

    For those who are interested in the issue
    plz visit
    madrasareforms.blogspot.com

  72. aliarqam

    “The Pakistani state has intervened in the educational process in two fundamental ways. First, it has encouraged students to be uncritical, submissive to authority and treat education as a process simply of memorising certain ‘facts’. At the same time, it encourages teachers to adopt the authoritarian attitude required for establishing the finality of their word and those in textbooks. Second, it has enforced the distortion of historical facts in textbooks, encouraged religious chauvinism and glorified militarism. It has also deprived students of role models who could have inspired and motivated them towards creativity and to address the conflicts of their society in a humanistic, compassionate and intelligent manner.”
    (Pakistan’s Crises of State and Society’, edited by Zia Mian and Iftikhar Ahmad.)
    http://www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=81&category=7&issue=8

  73. PMA

    Mr. Sa’ad Abbasi: Yes Madrassa makes one literate. But what else? Let us look closely at the student body and the products of a Madrassa. What is their contribution towards advancement of the society. Why is that majority of the Madrassa students come from the poorer sections of the society and from the most backward parts of the country. If Madrassas are such a wonderful place then why middle and effluent classes do not rush to enroll their children into one. Other than producing an other narrow minded Mullah with warped perspective of the world what is the utility of a Madrassa. One reason Muslims are the most backward people in the world today is the lack of modern education among Muslims. Yes state and the society has also failed us by not providing universal quality education for our children. But Madrassa is not the answer. In order to compete with the rest of the world we need modern education. We need to open more real schools and shut down these hate factories. The world has left us behind in the dust. When are we going to wake up.

  74. Saad Abbasi Sahab, a friendly advise:

    “Deaf,Dumb and blind and they will not return”(Quran 2:18)”

    so follow it and move on.

    Also, I would forward you the link of the book,”Madrassah’s Life-A student’s day at Nadwatul Ulema”. From the link :


    The notion that all modern madrasahs are terrorist factories is a falsehood based on ignorance. This book reveals the daily routine of one well-known madrasah in India and so lifts the veil on that ignorance. It is an account that academics, journalists, pundits and all those concerned with current events and issues should read. It demonstrates that students in a traditional madrasah are given grounding in religious life without any weakening of intellectual breadth and refinement. Above all, the students learn to tolerate and accept different arguments and points of view and to appreciate different human temperament.

    Read it and refer it to others(if you like).

    Have a nice day

  75. YLH

    Adnan,

    Could you please ask your friend to give me some reference because I am unable to find anything to prove his claim.

    And a question- would you put your son and daughter in madrassah? Answer honestly now…Allah is watching.


  76. And a question- would you put your son and daughter in madrassah?

    I would have said NO if I was asked this question before 2003’a Iraq war or 9/11 because I was also anti-religion like many liberals and had not even read Quran with translation in my life but now I can safely say that I would sure admit my son/daughter in some good madrasssah of Karachi like Darul Uloom or others because these days we need more Islamic students/scholars and then student of so called enlightened and private schools. Offcourse I am not saying that I would admit them in madrassah in some village. And later definitely they will be free to get wordly education like others.

    I have many friends who admitted their kids in madrassah and after that t hey are back to plain old retarded private school system and mind you they are not backward then those who have been in this system since beginning, infact they are doing much better.


    Allah is watching.

    Allah is not dedicated to me. He’s watching you and others as well and he’s well aware what people think rather what they say.


    ould you please ask your friend to give me some referenc

    YLH, I don’t dictate others, Abbasi is free to express his views. All I know that if someone gets rude with me like little kids then I certainly ignore such people. Abbasi seems have lots of energy that he’s still dealing with you people.

  77. YLH

    Good to know that you would put your kid in a madrassah. We’ll check back to confirm.

    As for Abbasi, he made a claim. He failed to prove it. When I asked him for page numbes, he called me abu jehl. I think we can safely say that it is I who has the energy dealing with you people and not vice versa.

  78. Sa'ad Abbasi

    PMA: I agree with you as far as reform of the education system is concerned, but till then what ever we have must not be destroyed. If we abolish Madrassah what will happen to those young people who want to learn but cant afford it? Every year the Madrassas produce 12,000 graduates every year, in other words all 12,000 can read and write and all find employment in one form or the other. If we we some how succeed in destroying the system without rectifying the ills of the public school system these 12,000/year will be illiterate unemployed and probably add into the criminal elements of the society.
    The whole argument is rectification of public education system, by focusing on madrassah alone we are confounding the problem.
    aliarqm: Buddh may be a Prophet of God, we dont have conclusive evidence and Dr. Sahib said the same.
    Music is not haram.
    Rules of Hijab can be interpreted within a band of acceptability.
    Dr. Hammedullah is not sacred but a great mind and a great scholar.
    YLH: So you are not going to read the books? I also made a claim about Theory of relativity what will you do about that?

  79. aliarqam

    @saad
    Am repeating the words
    Could U explain plz…..
    Shiekhul Hind Mehmoodul Hasan,when returned from Malta has expressed his disappointment from Madressas…
    “Aaj Mujhe apney Dard K Ghamkhaar(wo dard aur gham jis mey meri haddian ghali ja rahi hain) Madaaris o Makaatib mey kam owr Colleges and Universities mey Ziada Nazar arahey hein…”

  80. aliarqam

    @Adnan
    Plz put some necessory measures for the protection of your son from sexual harrasement from the elder students and Qaaris…

  81. PMA

    Mr. Sa’ad Abbasi:

    Good healthy debate with civilized decorum—an element often missing in this annanimous medium called Internet. I often wonder how would we react in real life if we ran into the person we exchange insults on the Internet.

    Thanks.

  82. heeh YLH, Shoq say check karna *grin*

    Arqam mian, don’t lose your life for me and my kids, its better you worry about your kids who would be studying or will study in foriegn schools one day. make sure they are safe from such things

    *grin*

  83. toh3r

    Speaking of terrorism by suicide attacks, there is an interesting article by Rober Pape with title “The logic of Suicide Terrorism”. It was interesting to know that Suicide attacks are rather _invention_ of secularist back in 80s:


    This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.


    This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.

    Wow, seculars never even knew how creative they are! The self proclaimed Marxist NFP never bothered to smell about gems which were under his nose and he kept crying for Zia.

  84. YLH

    Sa’a’a’d mian,

    All we know is that you made a claim … And then you dropped a name ie Dr. Hameedullah.

    It turned out that you were lying.

    Dr.Hameedullah is an excellent scholar of Islam …primarily because of his education in France.

  85. YLH

    It is a tragedy that he lived in exile in France and died in Florida…

    I am guessing he must have found the environment in “islami duniya” quite stifling.

  86. Sa'ad Abbasi

    Aliarqam: To me that sounds like a referrence to rising Islamic nationalism within the Colleges and universities found later by the Muslims in India such as the Jamia Millia and also later years (after sir syed)Aligarh. And is also perhaps a reference to the stiffling of Madrassa envoirnment. This is my guess of course those who know the matter better may infer differently.
    PMA: Oh I know how Ill get into a debate face to face and Im sure it won’t be different:)
    YLH: Or it could have been a woman who kept our dear doctor in France? or it could be the general lack of resources that prevade Islamic world? or it could be the presence of original sources and books on Islam in France and Europe which made the doctor decide to stay in the West? or perhaps the Doctor wanted to propagate Islam in Europe. There can be an endless list of the reasons. But the foremost of them remains that he became homeless after your ideal India and its secularism illegaly and through use of blatant force occupied and annexed his homeland hyderabad deccan and when he protested to that effect in UN Indian govt forfeited his pass port turning him into a stateless person. Yes the stifling envoirnment could be one of the reason that could be added to the long list!

  87. Sa'ad Abbasi

    @ Aliarqm: Homosexuality(forced and voluntary) is again not a strictly madrassah issue, it prevades all men and women boarding institutions. So to lable it on the madrassa is a bad argument.

  88. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH: So you are sure Im lying? well even then you are not getting any referrence from me, gotta do your own reading:)

  89. Majumdar

    Saad Abbasi,

    India did not annex Hyderabad, rather it liberated it from the Nizams (as it did many other princely states) who were illegally ruling it without the people’s consent.

    Regards

  90. Sa'ad Abbasi

    Mujamdar: You are entiteled to your views. But i still think it that from a strict legal interpretation it was an unlawful annexation.


  91. Dr.Hameedullah is an excellent scholar of Islam …primarily because of his education in France.

    Abbasi Sahab,Yasser might be true and I tend to agree with him. If the mentioned guy was here and tried to study Islam, he would have been labeled as “Talib”-an or extremist Mullah in modern outfit. He would not have been labeled like that in France.


  92. who were illegally ruling it without the people’s consent.

    Majumdar, why don’t you allow Kashmiris to allow same rule for their freedom rather labeling them terrorists while they are actually freedom fighters(for Pakistanis)? As it’s said:

    baghal mey churi moo mey Raam Raam?

  93. YLH

    On hyderabad, the legal position is quite clear … But if the US Civil War taught the world anything …it was that ultimately military victory determines legality.
    Kashmir is ofcourse the reverse where the dubious legality of the document of accession has been torn to shreds by the ultimate legal arbiter: the will of the people.

    Anyway none of this has anything to do with the facts in issue.

    Sa’ad,

    Basically the discussion has ended with you failing to make a valid point and your lie about Dr Hameedullah exposed.

    Dr Hameedullah was a great scholar and product of western scholarship which imbued him with a critical mind. In many ways he was similar to great Syed Ameer Ali who was law lord and sat on the privy council and also wrote the famous “History of Saracens” and the “Spirit of Islam”.

    These gentlemen, belonged to a section of Muslims which was inspired by the enlightened thought of the west, represented rational and palatable interpretations of Islam which was no doubt a noble venture and it was this string that had once produced the muslim modernists and liberals and secularists, Sir Syed, Jinnah, Iqbal, the young Turks, Namik Kemal, Gokalp, Ataturk and people like the harvard professor Fazlurrahman (not to be confused with The Mullah by the same name)…

    More recently a genius by the name of Syed Noman ul Haq teachest at University of Penn. He was once my professor at Rutgers… He is the finest scholar of Islam in the world today.

  94. PMA

    YLH: Rutgers misses you. (Just joking!). Oct. 25 Rutgers Scarlet Knights will be at Pitt Panthers Homecoming Game. Thought you might like to know. Will keep you posted about the out come.

  95. Majumdar

    Adnan sahib,

    Yes. India should not have annexed Kashmir. And incidentally Pak would have had Kashmir but your lust for Hyderabad put paid to that.

    Regards

  96. YLH

    I was planning on being there for the game… but my travel plans have been pushed back by a month or so.

  97. YLH

    wait I was planning for Rutgers’ home game… which has already passed… hasn’t it?

  98. YLH

    Saad mian,

    It has been so many days now… still…

    In addition to the evidence that you failed to produce on Bhutto, clergy board… could you also produce the page numbers from Khutba-e-Allahabad for your claims above?

    Did you think I won’t catch your little lie…

  99. Sa'ad Abbasi

    YLH: You arn’t that smart:) Had you been any good you would have caught the lie had it been a lie, so im counting on your laziness, ignorance and shallow understanding of things.
    So are you ever going to read the khutbat?