Our regular contributor Yasser Latif Hamdani has written this letter addressed to all Indians and it is worth a read for its directness and sincerity. We hope that our Indian readers would take note of this and reconsider their jingoistic tunes that have been drummed up by an irresponsible media and the collective, shared menace of domestic misgovernance. Raza Rumi (editor)
Dear Indian,
I write to you as a Pakistani who has always wished for peace and prosperity of the entire subcontinent. We might not see eye to eye on history, but I have always maintained that violence between Pakistan and India negates the raison d’être of Pakistan. This is why it is in our interest to have peace with India and get down to the task of building a prosperous and peaceful Pakistan at peace within and without.
Horrified by the violence in Bombay (the city was renamed Mumbai by right wing Hindu fanatics in your country I know but I reject such name-change be they in Pakistan or India- for me Faisalabad is Lyallpur, Sahiwal is Montgommery, Kolkatta is Calcutta and Mumbai is Bombay), I began writing an article which spoke of Bombay’s common heritage for both India and Pakistan, of Jinnah’s long connection to it (he famously told the Indian High Commissioner in 1947 “Oh I love Bombay and long to be there”), of Bombay’s status as the premier Asian city embodying the values of secularism and multi-ethnic cultural ethos and so on. I quoted Pakistan’s current President who said “there is a little Indian in every Pakistani and a little a Pakistani in every Indian”. I seconded Adil Najam’s “Today I am a Mumbaikar too” sentiment (except that I amended to “Bombaywallah”) but just before I finished the article, I happened to turn on the news. After two minutes of the news, I deleted the article and I am glad I did.
Look I am not going to apologize to anyone for being a Pakistani. Get it out of your head. You cannot take the internal contradictions of your polity and blame it on us. The fact is that just like not everything that happens in Pakistan is your fault, not everything that happens in India is ours. The events of Samjhauta Express – in which your media similarly went crazy blaming Pakistan but which turned out to be the doing of right wing Hindu fundamentalist group – should be an eye opener for you. I have been watching your news channels- what they are doing is sick and disgusting. They are accusing Pakistan without any real evidence or proof. One of the militants supposedly “confessed” to being from “Faridkot” in Pakistan. Perhaps you would like to show me where Faridkot is on the Pakistani map because till I heard it on Indian media I was not aware of this great factory of Jehadi terrorists in the land of the pure and despite several attempts I haven’t been able to locate it on the map of Pakistan.
Next your media spoke of RAW’s intelligence intercept of November 17, 2008 which showed a mysterious Pakistani ship heading for Bombay. Interestingly this remarkable stealth enabled Pakistani ship managed to penetrate through an on-going naval exercise which had mobilized a large section of the proud Indian Navy. This exercise – the “Defence of Gujurat” – was aimed at stopping “Al Qaeda and Pakistani ships” and yet at the height of this exercise the “Pakistani ship” snuck through and caused havoc by sending ashore ten militants and their deadly cargo. Of course these ten militants- who had according to Bombay police never visited the city before- then holed themselves up at strategic points in the city and held a city like Bombay hostage for 60+ hours. If this is true, perhaps you should first shoot your naval chief. But this is unbelievable to say the least.
For years I have fought against those of my fellow Pakistanis who blame any and all insurgencies within Pakistan on you guys. I have taken to task those Muslims who quite outrageously accuse the Jews of creating 9/11 themselves. The fact of the matter is that Muslims have been involved in terror activities all around the world and there is no denying that- no reasonable person would dare deny this and sadly there are not many reasonable people in the Muslim world. This points to our lack of introspection. However what about your lack of introspection? Samjhauta Express incident – which is now pending inquiry at your own courts which I respect greatly and which (the fiercely independent courts of law) are the Indian nation state’s crowning achievement- shows the grim determination of the right wing extreme Hindu Nationalism. One friend from India suggested that the Hindu Nationalists didn’t have “balls” to execute something like Bombay. I would not be so callous as to underestimate the determined followers of a great ancient creed which continues to be the life force of close to a billion people. The Samjhauta Express incident also showed that there is an ultra-nationalist section in the Indian Army which is in cahoots with the Hindu Nationalist forces. The new self confidence that Indian people have found in themselves has showed itself in almost everything from sports to business. In many ways, the new Indian reality is very similar to lead character in American History X. Imagined group victimization at the hands of an “evil” and “unpatriotic” minority group- in this case Muslims- has historically given majorities a lot more than a few sack full of cajones my friend.
I was shocked initially at the immediate reaction by the Indian government and their belligerent tone. But as I thought about it, I understood the difficult position Prime Minister Singh is in. With elections looming on the horizon, this incident presented a clear and present danger to Congress’ chances. Unfortunately for the Congress Party and its coalition which includes amongst others the Indian Union Muslim League – the only surviving heir of the pre-1947 Muslim League - is never going to be able to outdo the shrill voice of BJP and its right wing coalition when it comes to “Desh-Bhagti”. The only real way out for it was to try and expose the real elements behind Bombay violence which would strengthen their hand. Instead they’ve chosen to blame Muslims in general and Pakistan in particular only to weaken themselves greatly on count of incompetence. An inside job – that this Bombay topi drama really was- would have given the Congress some face saving and would have served to discredit the fascist right wing amongst Hindu Nationalists. It would have strengthened Indian secularism and set a good example for the region.
We in Pakistan have our own problems and by no means are we a strong state. We’ve been victims of terrorism even more so than India. However, rest assured that a war with us – while completely disastrous for Pakistan- will leave you in ruin. All the great dreams and aspirations you have of India as a world power will stand shattered and broken. If Pakistan dies, the ghost of Pakistan will continue to haunt you for centuries to come. In fact, Pakistanis would tell you that this a good year for us to go to war. Hit by a slowing economy and a growing discontent, a war would unite the disparate groups in this country against you. You would probably have to use Nuclear weapons, but not before our Military would have taken out 50 to 100 million of your own citizens. In terms of economic losses, you would lose as much more as Bombay’s stock exchange has market capitalization when compared to the Karachi Stock Exchange. This would be MAD- MAD – MAD i.e. Mutually Assured Destruction. All because some parties wanted to win elections by making Pakistan a scapegoat. This – you might say- would be the first and only case of destruction by democracy.
Let us choose the path of cooperation and acceptance. Let us fight the lesser terrorism caused by violence and the greater terrorism i.e. of poverty together. Let us as Indians and Pakistanis join hands in making South Asia truly prosperous. And let us for once- learn to tell the truth.
Yours sincerely,
A Pakistani
91 Comments
December 2, 2008 at 8:00 am
As a Pakistani myself, I regret to say that your write-up is more reactionary than factual and it lacks depth. Whether LeT was involved in Mumbai attacks or not,there is no denying that they are blossoming in our country and have their training camps.They could be as much a threat to us as to others.Pakistan can use this incident to their advantage by cleaning out such groups with or without help from outside.Thus we can not only clear our name but can also provide an example for others in the Islamic world to weed out radicals who are trying to hijack our great religion and are increasingly isolating us from the rest of the world.
December 2, 2008 at 9:40 am
“Let us fight the lesser terrorism caused by violence and the greater terrorism i.e. of poverty together. Let us as Indians and Pakistanis join hands in making South Asia truly prosperous. And let us for once- learn to tell the truth.”
Well Said…
December 2, 2008 at 9:41 am
Yaar Yasser,
Cool it. And no, India and Pakistan are not going to war. For just the reasons that you have mentioned.
Anyway coming back to who dunnit:
I dont think it is the Hindoo rightwingers ‘cos it is beyond their capability. (And perhaps also becuase they wouldn’t want to). Samjhota Express and Malegaon were acts of simple cowardice, place a bomb and run. The amount of military training, practise and indoctrination that this kind of atrocity needs is beyond their capability- as of now. And remember Abhinav Bharat has been exposed by the same police and investigative forces which are often accused of being anti-Muslim.
My hunch is that it is basically rouge elements in ISI (not the PPP Govt or even Gen Kayani) backed by Talib-AQ-LET axis to discredit the AAZ govt and divert Pakistan’s attention from WOT to let TTP off the hook. Precisely what the attack on Parliament had acheived in 2002. And if the Indian contention is correct that the attackers came from Karachi, Pak had better be careful.
An inside job – that this Bombay topi drama really was- would have given the Congress some face saving and would have served to discredit the fascist right wing amongst Hindu Nationalists. It would have strengthened Indian secularism and set a good example for the region.
Bhaijan, this is no drama nor inside job and “secularism isnt going to be strengthened” by manufacturing facts.
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 9:45 am
YLH: Nicely put.
December 2, 2008 at 9:51 am
Maujamdar: Rouge elements in ISI? How about rouge elements in RAW, how about RSS, Bajrangdal?
You say they dont have the capability? Bahijan RSS has a militaristic history reaching far back than India or Pakistan’s age. They have been involved in every anti-muslim pogrom in India. they have the organisation, the cadres, the ideaology and the will. So dont dismiss them casually. If alqaeda can hit the twin towers, RSS can not pull something like Mumbai? think again!
December 2, 2008 at 9:52 am
Hi Pakistani,
I agree that india and pakistan both are facing the horrific Mariat hotel in pak and Taj in India. The only concern that bothers me that Pak government does not seem to have solid and real plan to kill the terrorist of LeT and others. I think we as public need to be more closure to each other from india and Pak and let politicians of our countries kill the terrorists hard. we can not keep quite while seeing mariat and taj ( To tell you truth we as indian love taj who is symbol of same hostory ) and we are still unsure why LeT terrorist attempted to destory the heritage which is so pure islamic heritage as we indian take pride in that and a positive contribution of Mughal dynasty to world.
It is time for civilian government to crush terror in pak and give all safety to it’s people in pak as well as to Indian.
December 2, 2008 at 9:54 am
Abbasi sb,
Of course the Bajrang Dal. This organisation’s modus operandi consists of launching communal riots in the safety net of numbers against outnumbered minorities sadly often with the connivance of the police. This kind of operation is beyond them.
As far as the RAW is concerned, it is a joke.
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 10:06 am
Kuku,
Pakistan should stamp out extremism regardless… I have always opposed LET and I second your sentiment.
However this article has to do with the actual events of Bombay which are crystal clear for all to see.
December 2, 2008 at 10:16 am
Maujamdar: Why is it a joke? If Oliver North can happen in the CIA and scores of others who went over and beyond their respective call to duties. Where number of events in history has been attributed to black operations of the secret services, why then RAW be considered to be different?
December 2, 2008 at 10:20 am
Saad Abbasi sb,
Indian intelligence is a contradiction in terms.
And I dont think Ollie North went beyond call of duty, possibly he was authorised but later made a fall guy.
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 10:21 am
Majumdar dada,
This was addressed to you:
“I would not be so callous as to underestimate the determined followers of a great ancient creed which continues to be the life force of close to a billion people. The Samjhauta Express incident also showed that there is an ultra-nationalist section in the Indian Army which is in cahoots with the Hindu Nationalist forces. The new self confidence that Indian people have found in themselves has showed itself in almost everything from sports to business. In many ways, the new Indian reality is very similar to lead character in American History X. Imagined group victimization at the hands of an “evil” and “unpatriotic” minority group- in this case Muslims- has historically given majorities a lot more than a few sack full of cajones my friend.”
December 2, 2008 at 10:29 am
Yasser mian,
I am not convinced. But still assuming ur hypothesis is correct what do you think was the perpetrators objective.
1. To make the INC govt lose next election. But that would have happened anyway. This govt was a dead duck anyway.
2. To provoke a war with Pak which would destroy both nations.
Neither seems to be too convincing.
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 10:43 am
Have you heard Captain Bharat Verma of Indian Defence Review speak?
I can assure you that Zahid Zaman Hamid included there is no one as crazy as Bharat Verma in Pakistan.
Far too many people in India have become overconfident about India’s military prowess and think that a war with Pakistan would be the summer campaign of good old Rome.
December 2, 2008 at 10:43 am
Maujamdar Sb: What contracdictions? RAW is a world class Intel agency its reportedly playing havoc on our western borders some even suggest that most talibans are being funded by the RAW.
What makes you think that RAW is not capable of finding its scapegoats if matters come to that point?
By the way Col. North these days is also in Afghanistan, I think he is a journalist now:)
December 2, 2008 at 11:12 am
Yasser mian,
I dont hang out on right wing websites (inspite of being rather right of center myself) ‘cos most of these people are idiots.
Look, Indian policy is made by politicians, not army men not bharat rakshak guys at least that is something that INC has to be given credit for. Whatever Capt Verma (whoever he is) thinks of a Indo-Pak war, the polis know better and remember both INC and BJP are heavily funded by business interests who will never permit a war to be fought so casually.
Saad abbasi sb,
I am sure there are some militant ouftits which are being supported by RAW but most of TTP is not, they are being backed by Afghan drug money and possibly Gulf interests.
Btw, I am quite curious why u r so anti-Talib, your views seem to be rather Talibanish.
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 11:36 am
Maujamdar Sb: My views appear to you talibainsh beuase you paint every Muslim with the same brush. And one reason may also be the fact that your understanding of Islam and Muslims is also limited.
Another thing which is often forgotton conveniently is that it was the Taliban who for the first time in the history of Afghanistan totally curbed drug trade and poppy cultivation from the parts that they controlled in Afghanistan. The only areas that produed drugs in those days were those controlled by the Northern Alliance. And I was shocked when Tony Blair in a press conference related to support of his decision to attack Afghaistan listed as drug trade being patronised by the Taliban. And since then the lie has been repeated over and over again.
December 2, 2008 at 11:43 am
Abbasi sb,
I have met many Muslims in real life, I have at least one good friend among them, whom I am trying to recruit for my firm. And I have made at least one good friend among Muslims I have met on net (YLH) and my political ideal is a Muslim (MAJ)- although these two gentlemen wouldnt be described by you as Muslims in the first place. Believe me I dont typecast all Muslims as Taliban. The only reason I suspect you of being one is your contention that apostasy shud be punishable by death. Apart from that, I have no reason to suspect u of being one.
Btw, wud u clarify whether u r Talib or anti-Talib?
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 11:56 am
Sa’ad,
Majumdar is free of religious bias I can assure you of that. He is one of the most balanced people I have come across anywhere…
December 2, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Yasser,
Thanks. That means a lot.
Regards
December 2, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Everything written in this letter is so correct but one thing that we have to accept that our government has failed once again on the diplomatic front. Indian government and Indian media has taken the lead from unabashedly showing the non-factual but very con in their stuff reports and videos, to even terrorizing the very people of Pakistan by alerting their armed forces.
We as people (bloggers) have to carry the duties which our government had to do. Thanks God NOW, there seems some consensus over the policy of Pakistan on this matter and all the politicians have gathered to fight back the lashings of Indian government.
God bless Pakistan.
http://muddleheadedsblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/we-condemn-war.html
December 2, 2008 at 5:26 pm
I am all for partisan discussions but the guernica-ish picture you painted in this letter is disheartening. While the Indian govt has again proved itself to be an incompetent and apathetic lot I’m convinced they don’t want a nuclear face-off. After all, all the security in the world couldnt save the politicians and their kin if the shit really hit the fan and while there isn’t a lot to say about most Indian politicians we can rest assured that they wouldn’t invite such horrors on themselves. There is a lesson to be learnt in this and I’ve seen it in people around me. We have to vote right. I have a colleague who is blinded by fury but mostly with herself because she was one of the few who voted this govt into power. What we need to do is stand-up to our brown-nose leaders and make them accountable for their blatant ennui (if anyone’s been following reports on the callous comments of RR Patil and the like)
I agree that there probably are hundreds of sleeper cells and separatist movements in India itself, ones that we need to target… but Pakistan, and by this i am not pointing at its people but its govt, which granted is in its nascency, needs to as well. Its “it wasn’t me” partyline has chafed us too long. The Pakistani govt’s seeming amnesty of terrorists needs to be put to an end. They have offered us their cooperation and they need to follow through with it, even if the Indian govt refuses it. Its a movement that needs to be galvanized from within. Just as Indians need to make a conscious effort to cull Hindu fundamentalism.
And the problem is that it is not a physical monster we are battling but an intangible, ideological one. What we need now are moderates at both ends of the communal spectrum. It is a challenge defending islam and pakistan in india but we do it, maybe not all of us but people i know. And it has been endearing to see that we have people stick-up for Indians and Hindus across the border.
While im not religious I have always taken an interest in studying religious texts b/c of the sway they have over people. I think any discerning human being would agree that all muslims dont commit or condone the acts of terrorism that they are indiscriminately accused of, just as all hindus don’t commit or condone acts of violence against India’s marginalized communities.
I have lost friends in the attack on Mumbai and despite the neurosis of fear and the blame game, there are a significant number of us who aren’t jumping to conclusions. I can only hope someone reading this is thinking “likewise”. Because here’s the thing and theres really no way of getting around it… while the press is saying so many israelis have died and so many americans have lost their lives, the worst casualties were obviously innocent indians and there is only thing that overrides this and it is that this distinction is irrelevant. The point is HUMAN BEINGS lost their lives irrespective of their religious beliefs, their sex or the colour of their skin.
I was born in 1985, much after India’s partition and I wish that the two countries could forgive each other if nothing more. We were after all one nation once. I cannot understand where this hatred germinates from in our generation which didn’t see the atrocities both nations heaped on each other so long ago.
I believe it was Alice Walker who said that the most common way people give up their power is by thinking they dont have any. There is no doubt that parochial, exclusivist ideologies exist both sides of the border. What is important is that the moderates on both sides make sure their voices are heard. Despite India’s gossamer secularism its democracy is steadfast and I believe Pakistan’s will be too, in due course. What is important to remember is that a democracy cannot nurture itself. It is not something you can just hang your hopes on or believe in. It is something you have to do and something you have to actively participate in. I think Bombay’s ‘chalta hai’ attitude has finally caught up with it. We’re finally participating. I hope you are too.
December 2, 2008 at 5:28 pm
YLH I started reading your post with great enthusiasm but it is sadly totally shallow(unlike ur other posts).I don’t doubt ur sincerity or emotion but ur words have let u down this time.Rest assured our dream in India is not to annihiliate Pakistan……..we just want terror export(by whoever it is within Pakistan who does it) to stop.The same terror that Pakistan has nurtured on its soil is infact eating away at Pakistan itself.Its time to stop saying ther is no such groups training these terrorists on Pakistan soil.
December 2, 2008 at 6:19 pm
An interesting take by Iyesha IjazKhan…
http://www.counterpunch.org/khan12022008.html
December 2, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Simply,
I want Pakistan to stamp down on all terror outfits- really come down hard but that is not because of this incident which I am certain was carried out by the fascist right wing within India.
ISI should be reformed, LeT should be destroyed (by the government of Pakistan) and Dawood Ibrahim should be extradited to India. But let us separate issues here. Bombay killings have nothing to do with it.
December 2, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Frankly, I am disappointed at the tone and arguments in this post. Pak Tea House is normally quite balanced but this post is more than rhetorical. For example, I was easily able to find Faridkot in Pakistan by doing a google search while the author seems to deny its very existence.
At the same time, this is indicative of a broader malaise and a reluctance on both the Indian and Pakistani sides about owning up the 10 youngsters who seem to be just socio- paths. Starting from the left (Tariq Ali in countercurrents) to mainstream Pakistani media, the reaction from Pakistan seems to be to even deny the possibility of one or more of them being from Pakistan. On the Indian side, it’s exactly the opposite view.
For a moment, maybe we need to pause and speculate: as a Pakistani what if some or all of the 10 were Pakistanis? As an Indian: what if some of all of them were Indians? What if it was a “mixed” team?
At this time, it is at best speculative to really know where this “team” came from, but it might be useful to go back and introspect rather than indulge in jingoism on either side.
At least that is the note on which a liberal site like PTH (and Indian/desi sites in general) need to pitch in at this time. We can leave the jingoism to the MSM.
December 2, 2008 at 11:29 pm
yaar, I have been watching Zaid Hamid as well. So, maybe , I should disregard all official statements made by Zardari and focus instead only on Zaid Hamid as the official voice of Pakistan? This article is nothing but a polemic against the Indian media and completly disregards the very responsible process followed by GOI which includes:
1. Not holding GoP responsible
2. Not making any threats of use of force.
3. Not creating red alert / moving troops to the border.
However, if Indian Media is to be taken as the standard, let us compare it to Pakistan media:
1. Zaid Hamid essentially states that this is the beginning of the end of the federation of India.
2. In the same TV show, an elected Pakistani MP states that India is essentially a country with whom Pakistan is at war.
3. The jang.com.pk newspaper has a headline report in which an unnamed Pak Army officer says that Baitullah Mehsud and others are patriots with whom there are just a few misunderstandings.
4. The Pakistani media (various newspapers) have mentioned that Pakistan is ready to move troops to the Indian border on a 72 hour notice. There is no Indian newspaper reporting anything similar.
5. Pak Media makes a big deal of the word “summoning” the Pak Ambassador, without acknowledging that the specific word is normal in diplomatic usage. The word “summon” is put in quotes by Dawn. Yet, the very next day, Dawn reports that Pakistan summons the Indian ambassador without any quotes instead.
In addition to Pak Media, let us look at GoP reaction:
1. Zardari and others of the elected government make all the right speeches.
2. India acknowledges by carefully parsing it’s statement in order to NOT put any blame on GoP. The blame is essentially on non-state Pakistani actors.
3. Immediately after a meeting with CAS Pak Army, Zardari retracts his statement about sending DG – ISI. He instead says that a director will be sent when appropriate.
4. Ex – Chief of ISI openly criticizes the President of Pakistan for making such an offer to start with.
5. All major Pakistani newspapers (Jang, Nation, Dawn) have editorials stating that there appears to be a split between the elected government and the Army and they need to speak with a common voice.
As far as blaming this on Indians is concerned, fine, let your government come out and say it officially. Let GoP state that their official view is that this was an Indian black flag operation. The onus will then be on India and the rest of the world to investigate and to deal with the situation as it sees fit.
5
December 3, 2008 at 4:16 am
rw,
By doing a google search you may have come to a wiki-entry on a small village in Khanewal which was recently added… congratulations. You’ve cracked the case and proved me a liar. I have owned up whenever I have been convinced that Pakistanis did it… however it is time you guys owned up as well. Mind answering the questions I raised? You can’t answer them so you must attack me and Pakteahouse for publishing me (Pakteahouse is only balanced till the time it doesn’t offend you or show you the mirror I suppose).
Stukay…
Why should Pakistan Government say it? Mumbai does not fall in our territory does it? It is in the interest of the people of India and the Government of India to discover who did it.
Btw… I just found out that a number of Hindu Indian journalists are taking the same line as I am… including Amaresh Mishra.
December 3, 2008 at 4:40 am
Yasser mian,
I just found out that a number of Hindu Indian journalists are taking the same line as I am… including Amaresh Mishra.
So is Zaid Hamid.
Regards
December 3, 2008 at 4:42 am
BTW… Pakistani media has reacted much better and in a reasonable manner… the few instances you’ve shown are merely individual opinions…
We’ve not had programmes starting with stupid and idiotic news anchors with bad Hindi/Urdu abusing Pakistan… with sensational dhum dhum in the background as if the tragedy of Bombay was another soap opera like kyunki saas bhee kabhi bahoo thee…
Your media was shameless. It was worse than FOX NEWS- FOX NEWS would be a breath of fresh air compared to some of your TV Channels…
In comparion Pakistan’s media was serene, restrained, solemn and never accusatory.
December 3, 2008 at 4:44 am
Majumdar dada…
If INC can be right some times… so can Zaid Zaman Hamid… but I haven’t read what he had to say.
December 3, 2008 at 4:58 am
Yasser mian,
If INC can be right some times
Apart from scuppering the CMP-46 I dont remember it doing anything right (i.e. after Maulana Gandhi hijacked it from Jinnah-Gokhale et al)
Zaid Hamid is saying that basically the Hindoo-Zionist axis did it. Amaresh Mishra argues that Mumbai and all other bomb blasts (round the globe) have been carried out by the Mossad-CIA nexus with connivance of local fascists.
Regards
December 3, 2008 at 5:09 am
Well I certainly don’t think Mossad and CIA had anything to do with it.
I think we in South Asia have our fair share of autonomous fascists who can manage on their own.
December 3, 2008 at 5:47 am
YLH,time will tell who was behind the Mumbai attacks but my gut nstinct is that this time Pakistan will find it can not erase the bloody finger prints going all way back to its soil.Right wing Hindu ideology behind this attack?YLH this is beyond their skills and reach.This has the LET signatures all over it.
And no this is not about Pak-bashing.This is about the reality of the scope and depth of terror tentacles in Pakistani soil.Pak will ignore it at its own peril.
December 3, 2008 at 5:52 am
“This has the LET signatures all over it.”
How?
December 3, 2008 at 6:05 am
Study the diffrent LET led attacks and see the pattern emerging.But my intention is not to jump on to Pakistani sensibilties and crow”listen you guys are to blame”.I just hope that Pakistan wakes up to the magnitude of the problems within and the export of some of it to India.
Crowing about the newly minted word Hindu Terrorism is not going to wish your problems away……
December 3, 2008 at 6:19 am
simply 61…
I have taken on LeT in pitched forked battles for a long time and taken them on… I even forcibly removed once a “chanda” camp set up by Jamaat-ud-dawa (front end of LeT) because it was advocating violence against India in 2003- this happened in Johar Town locality of Lahore. For this I am considered a sworn enemy by the LeT… and a Hindu agent. Unlike you guys I actually have done a lot more than talk when it comes to Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism.
However… facts are facts- and Bombay terrorism has the signature of Hindu fascists. You guys are going crazy right now… and have ceased to make any sense whatsoever. I don’t see an LeT signature here nor do I see a pattern. There is no reason for LeT to do this at this time either.
On the other hand your Hindu nationalist extremists have been very active over the few years.
December 3, 2008 at 6:20 am
And stop “crowing crowing” … either argue logically as to how this LeT’s signature… or just accept that you really don’t have any reason to believe the crap being churned out in India at the moment.
December 3, 2008 at 6:41 am
i never thought this day would come but i was very dissapointed after reading the above article. inspite of Mr. Hamdani’s claims(ostensible?) of being an advocate of the voice of reason in Indo-Pak relations, the above article reeks of blatant bias and a prejudiced mind. there are right wing hindu pyschopaths in this country and a political party that tacitly supports them. that they have had a long military history and have been involved in terrorist attack against minorities is indisputable. however, the special targeting of foreigners holding american or british passports, the attack on the nariman house are not characterstics of hindu fundamentalism. moreover the recent attcks that were executed by the said fundamentalists were carried out in areas dominated by the muslims, the places chosen as targets in the recent attacks were not such. the amount of ammunition used, the strategy involved clearly proves that it could not have been carried out entirely by indigenous elements.
We’ve not had programmes starting with stupid and idiotic news anchors with bad Hindi/Urdu abusing Pakistan… with sensational dhum dhum in the background as if the tragedy of Bombay was another soap opera like kyunki saas bhee kabhi bahoo thee…
now i would like to know precisely which media channel did it, abusing pakistan????? dude, u sure about what you were watching? those stupid and idiotic journlalists undertook the risk of reporting everything live even amidst gunfire and grenade attacks in the background. and it would have been really nice had you mentioned how much contempt the news channels had for the failure of the governement to stop the attcks, the tone was accusatory but the main target was the indian government, their politicisation of terrorism by politicians, their inability to learn from their past mistakes and their failure to provide basic security to its citizens. newspaper articles and channels have maintained that the gov. cant be complacent and hold pak responsible when there are security lapses in our country and the presence of domestic terrorism, the possiblity of the involvement of the latter in the attacks has not been ruled out at all. the government has raised a finger of suspicion at various elements within pakistan, not at the country or its civilians, we are not mad to wage a war against pakistan as we are perfectly aware about the econmic and social consequences as well as the strength of the army of a nuclear pakistan, it would also distarct the army from pakistan’s western borders that would spell doom for india as well and tarnish the international image of the nation. with an economic crisis and general elections next month,war is the last thing on the minds of indian politicians, policy makers and sane indians.
while the investigation is still going on, its essential to exercise restraint n cooperate and crack down on the terrorist elements. while the investigation procedure is going on, one cant arrive at any final conclusion, to derail the peace process between the two countries at this juncture would end up fulfilling the aims of terrorists and does not make sense, but then neither does yor article.
In comparion Pakistan’s media was serene, restrained, solemn and never accusatory.
loved the sarcasm
December 3, 2008 at 6:57 am
YLH,let us agree to disagree on this one and wait out the results of the investigations.We shall discuss this then.
December 3, 2008 at 7:09 am
YLH
My point is that the media is not relevant. Let’s talk about what government say, because that’s what counts. Your Urdu media is not known for its objectivity either – but that’s not relevant, neither country’s media decides state policy. As far as GoI, is concerned, there is not ONE statement that implicates GoP.
WRT your other point, yes, I agree that Pakistan does not HAVE to say it. My point was, if Pakistan truly believes it, let it officially state it. Other than that, it is for India to have its own suspicions and deal with it as we can. For all practical purposes, India got the official response from Zardari today.
December 3, 2008 at 7:13 am
One more thing – the Samjhauta Express incident and the involvement of the Lt Col – this was not proven by the courts or confessed to by the Army officer. It was an Indian media outlet that reported it based on an unconfirmed source, and it was picked up by other media outlets. The officer has only confessed to Malegaon in his official statements.
So, you can either take the Indian Media at face value on all it’s statements or be equally suspicious.
December 3, 2008 at 7:16 am
“however, the special targeting of foreigners holding american or british passports, the attack on the nariman house are not characterstics of hindu fundamentalism”
It could ostensibly be argued that if it’s a black flag operation by India, it would make sense to target Americans, Europeans and Jews so as to build a case. These are inanities however. One can build a case about anything.
The point is that the intellgience agencies of multiple countries are involved and there are tangible clues – a gps, ammo, guns, sim cards. There is ample technology to figure out the bigger picture. You don’t need enough evidence to fight a court case. You just need enough to know what happened.
December 3, 2008 at 7:45 am
My open letter was published as an article in The News today. It basically tore through the loop holes in the Indian case against Pakistan.
I’d like to share some emails that I received from our lovely neighbors from across the border:
ftcd2820@hotmail.com>
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 6:49 AM
mailed-byhotmail.com
hide details 6:49 AM (5 hours ago) Reply
Hey paki scum,
is this your open letter an attempt at reconciliation with India. It shows how out of touch with reality mother fuckers like you are. Read the editorials in today’s Daily Times. Najam Sethi has a better grip on reality.
You asshole are basically threatening a nuclear war. In other words you will wage covert war, openly host train and send in terrorists to India and India should take it because you will threaten a nuclear war. Ass hole, that game is over.
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:48 AM
subjectAn open letter to Indians
mailed-byvibc.org
hide details 11:48 AM (22 minutes ago) Reply
What an ugly people Pakistanis are! hard to imagine. I guess almighty has tried to assebmle everything evil at one place and that is Pakistan. Hard to determine now if there quality journalism exist in Pakistan. Sounds like every one is just a terrorist there. God bless Pakistan! I am sure the Muslims of Pakistan are a totally different and seperate breed. Now I have the answer why Muslims from Indian Origin do not trust the Muslims of Pakistan origin in USA/Canada which I experience on a daily basis. I think Pakistan is a curse on itself. As it is well known – Afghanistan attracts drug money.Pakistan attracts terrorism money. There should not be any doubts that to save from becoming a complete failed state – Pakistan uses terrorism to blackmail international community to milk them. 9/11 has brought Billions. When that source was drying up, they are looking for another opportunity. Americans and Indians alke understand these strategies now.
We are truly hoping this time Indian government will scrap all ties with Pakistan. Every single Pakistanis should be kicked out of India and made them clear that never ever come back – including cricketers or diplomate. They have done a great deal of damage to India/Indian people and they will continue to do so as and when they have chance as wolves. Because that is what they are – Evil society. How one can make evil society a noble one! One can not keep a cobra as pet. If one tries then it is just a foolish idea. Pakistanis are cobras. India doesn’t need a friendly relationship with Pakistan. Salute to Indian Islamic Council who refused to let those evil muslim terrorists in their cemetery when police tied to bury them in their Kabristan. Maulana said – they are Pakistani Harami Mussalman and we can not allow their burrial in our kabristan. Well, this aticle will give you a cheap recognition from evil Pakistanis. Shame on you all. Yet to read a compassionate article in any Pakistani Newspaper about all those innocent who lost lives in Bombay. Well, again same thing – What one can expect from an evil establishment
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
ccmhamzahh
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:53 AM
subjectresponse to your letter to indians
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 10:53 AM (1 hour ago) Reply
Hallo,
I have gone through your article today. However I was shocked to notice how Pakistani media is misguiding the awam of Pakistan.
You have raised many questions about renaming of Bombay to Mumbai….only because it is done by Shivsena…..you find muslims invaders have changed the names of cities in thousands…..i Hope you know the history…..so do you expect we to ask you or seek permision of Pakistani to change the name to its original name….strange !!!!!
Then you have referred to Jinha….tell me was he a muslim ? two generations back his parents were converted as usual….he never attended namaz…he and his wife used drink alcohol and were chain smoker also…married a non-muslim girl wihtout knowledge to her father…..backstabed him…..he was not knowing even abcd of islam…..his ego was hurt and he played the card of islam…capitalised it and Pakistan came into existance.
This is your real problem….father of nation founded nation on basis of religion…which he never followed…problem is identity crisis…..you have no history of your own …..except for last 50 yrs…You know better what you have achieved during last 50 years….if possible just go through the letter written by two readers in dawn dated 02-12-2008 which are eye opener for you…..if streched further you will have to identity yourself with history of moguls, gazni, khilji …who did only destruction for 800 yrs in indian sub continent….rape..forceful conversion…massacres…destruction of temples….janankhana….killing father,brothers, and close relatives to become ruler…..what else is your history ?
You have referred about hindu militants and samjhauta express blast….ok it could have been done by hindu….but mind it well IT WAS ONLY REACTION AND NOT ACTION ….IT WAS RECTION TO THE HUNDREDS OF BLASTS AND RIOTS MUSLIMS HAVE DONE IN THE PAST….IT WAS A NATURAL REACTION….HOWEVER…THEY ARE BEING PROBED PROPER AND WILL BE PUNISHED IF FOUND GUILTY….EXCEPTION CANNOT BE RULE….
You have denied all the charges on the basis of media reports in india….there are hundreds of chanells here and at liberty to say whatever they want without proper authenticity….YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO REACT ON THE STATEMENTS BY POLICE COMMISSIONER (ACCIDENTLY MUSLIM MR GAFOOR )…ANYWAHY OVER A PERIOD TIME TRUTH WILL COME OUT AND WE WILL WAIT TO SEE YOUR REACTION TO THAT.
You want joint-probe etc….what a joke it is ?…when Benzir Bhutto was killed in blast….your President and her husband demanded probe by UN…..it shows you are INCOMPETENT TO INVESTIGATE….OK…success and failures are part of investigations….BUT YOU HAVE ACCEPTED OPENLY THAT YOU ARE NOT DERSEVING AND NOT BELIEVING YOUR OWN AGENCIES…..THEN HOW DO YOU EXPECT INDIAN GOVT TO ALLOW YOU TO JOIN IN PROB ?
hower war against Pakistan would be a blunder mistake for us…..muslims will unite to fight against kafirs….it is enough that your own people are fighting among themselves on the interpretation of islam, jihad etc….secondly USA and NATO forces are better for you…they are ruthless…they are not followers of Gandhi and Buddha like us…fortunately.
shiv
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 6:59 AM
subjectopen letter to Indians
mailed-byyahoo.com
signed-byyahoo.com
hide details 6:59 AM (5 hours ago) Reply
Thank for your hilarious letter in News International in which you have implied that the Bombay blast by terrorists from our neighboring country could be the handiwork of some nationalist Hindu organisaion, You do not have to be a nuclear scientists to find out the perpetrators of this heinous crimes were followers of which faith just by simple observation weather they were circumcised or not will tell you if they were Hindus or from land of pure? Even Indian police requested the muslim ullema to take the dead bodied of those criminal terrorists for muslim burial but they refused to take costody of the bodies for burial on the ground that once they became terrorist , they were no longer muslims. or terrorists have no religion.
Muslims live on the daily dose of conspiracy theory and on the assumption that 3/4 of the world is always conspring against them and to malign the most peaceful religion, as they have nothing else to do.
Indians wans to live peacefully with there neighbours but there comes s a time when we say enough is enough– from plane hi i-jacking, attack on parliament to attack on Indias commercail centre and numerous other terrorist activities inside India.
toYasser Latif Hamdani
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:12 PM
subjectdifference between Indian muslims and Pakistan muslims
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 12:12 PM (9 minutes ago) Reply
I hope below pasted news is the answer to all your questions:-
DAILY TIMES DATED 03-12-2008
Don’t bury Mumbai attackers here: Muslim clerics
* President of city madrassa says terrorists should be buried where they came from
MUMBAI: Muslim clerics in Mumbai said Tuesday that the bodies of nine militants who carried out last week’s attacks in the city should not be buried in India.
A group of Muslim scholars representing about 50 religious organisations met to discuss how the community should respond to the attacks that killed 188 people and injured more than 300.
Only one of the 10 gunmen involved in the shootings and grenade attacks has been captured alive. India says all the attackers came from Pakistan.
“These people should be buried where they came from. There is no space for them on our holy land,” said Syed Moinuddin Ashraf, president of the city’s Jamia Qadriya Ashrafiya madrassa.
“Any country found involved in these attacks should be declared a terrorist state,” he added.
The bodies are currently lying in two morgues in Mumbai hospitals, where officials said they are waiting for the local government’s directions on what to do with them.
“It seems that non-profit bodies have been asked to bury them, but no one seems to be ready,” said one senior official at Mumbai’s Sir Jamsetjee Jeejebhoy (JJ) Hospital where eight bodies are being kept.
The authorities may also wait for a few more days in case someone makes a claim on the bodies, the official said.
The clerics said they hoped their recommendation to refuse burial in India would be heeded.
“If someone goes ahead and does it, it would be a big disappointment, a big letdown,” Ashraf said. afp
Jeetendra Kumar
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:13 PM
subjectRe: An open letter to Indians
mailed-byvibc.org
hide details 12:13 PM (9 minutes ago) Reply
Who allows you to write in a newspaper? Does this newspaper have any standard? Is this the newspaper started by Mir Khalilirrahman? Wow. you are trying to tell your evil Pakistani fellow that Pakistan’s ghost will haunt India? Well, Indians including indian muslim understand how to handle Pakistani Ghost. There should be a limit for stupidity. Well, you are pakistani journalist with a blackberry…lol……India’s brother and friend – Pakistan……hahahahaha
- Hide quoted text -
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:45 PM, wrote:
Yawn. Get a life.
Jeetendra Kumar
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:31 PM
subjectRe: An open letter to Indians
mailed-byvibc.org
hide details 12:31 PM (9 minutes ago) Reply
You all are same……top down………We wish we never have to talk to you evil people. God help us keeping us away from Pakistanis. We will rather have African blacks as friends. They at least have soul. Our manmohan and sonia – what we can tell about them they are embarrassed by their act already for making friends with Pakistan and pakistanis which is never a viable option for Indians. As you said if they are alive they are evil and when they die their ghost haunts . And jealous about your blackberry…..poor you……..the blackberry I have it will take you at least two years to reach you unless a relative can bring to you from here. Because i am where blackberry tree was planted first. RIM is just in our backyard. So trust me, we have no reason to be jealous for what you have. And what you have on your own. If money doesn’t come from America/china/Saudis – you are done! For sure one thing you have – a flourishing terrosm business. But we don’t want that.
All evil has the “yawning” tendencies.
- Hide quoted text -
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:10 PM, wrote:
Yawn. Are you jealous of my blackberry now?
Why don’t you talk to the newspaper administration.
*** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***
toYasser Latif Hamdani
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:22 PM
subjectRe: response to your letter to indians
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 12:22 PM (23 minutes ago) Reply
Hallo Sir,
I can understand your emotions and feelings….any whosoever has done it…THANK GOD…..but it was good that partition was done…otherwise today muslims in united india ( if it had existed ) would have made it a hell like today’s pakistan and bangladesh……
Pakitani an Pakistan are not irrelevant…but Pakistani/Pakistan are not PART OF SOLUTION, BUT PART OF PROBLEM….NO THER CATGEGORY EXISTS…i AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON THE WHOLE WORLD INCLUDING MUSLIM BROTHERS ARE SAYING THE SAME THING.
REGARDING GUJRAT….I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU WE NEED TO LEARN FROM HISTORY OF 800 YRS.
REGARDING KASHMIR….JUST TELL US WHY 63% POPLE HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THE POLLS INSPITE OF CALL OF BOYCOTT BY YOU AND JIHADI ? YOU WILL SAY WE HAVE COMPELLED…BUT THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE IN SUCH A HUGE SCALE.
REGARDING ORISSA….MISSIONARIES ARE COVERTING POOR HINDUS…DO YOU EXPECT WE TO TOLERATE THIS ?
WE NEED TO REDUCE OUR LIMIT OF TOLERANCE.
WHY SHOULD I BE BLIND…MY HEART GOES FOR THE 50% MUSLIMS…FEMALE POPULATION….YOU PEOPLE HAVE NEVER REALISED THEIR PAINS AND SUFFERINGS FROM THE THE BEGINING OF ISLAM…..
SHANKAR
—-
December 3, 2008 at 8:05 am
Excuse me Nikita… Targetting Chabad House so blatantly precisely provides evidence for this being a reverse operation by Hindu fascists… singling out American and British citizens is also similar. LeT is known for not discriminating between Indians and Americans and Brits and Jews…so it does not make any sense to go out of the way and find an obscure jewish place of worship in Bombay …
As for which channel… every channel. Have you seen Indian TV? CNN IBN, NDTV, STAR NEWS and countless other channels.
Look a lot of Indian citizens were killed that day… their bood calls out for you to look for the truth instead of accusing Pakistan shamelessly.
December 3, 2008 at 8:17 am
Yasser mian,
Yes the blood for the killed folks has to be avenged and for that a thorough inquiry is needed in the matter. As you suggest.
I have already given an alternative explanation as to why the raids were staged. The murder of foreign citizens including esp Jews was a handiwork of the real masterminds behind the attack- the AQ. LET or some such organisation (incl locals) may have provided the legs but the mastermind is someone bigger, AQ-Talibs nexus, they would have selected the targets.
Regards
December 3, 2008 at 8:58 am
Mujamdar Sb: Your question speaks of your lack of knowledge on the issue! It suffices to say that Taliban in Pakistan mostly consist of ignorant, misguided and in some cases even criminal elements. Taliban are not a political or religious party or sect. They have no idealogy, no permanent agenda. At best they can be described as an accidental product of a complex chain reaction. So why dont you make your own assessment and brand me accordingly:)
December 3, 2008 at 9:11 am
Abbasi sb,
It suffices to say that Taliban in Pakistan mostly consist of ignorant, misguided and in some cases even criminal elements.
In that case, sir, you are definitely not a Taliban!!!
Regards
December 3, 2008 at 10:30 am
It was really nice to read this article and comments. . . But few people are really out of their mind here
December 3, 2008 at 11:50 am
RSS / BJP did the dirty work in Mumbai. Hemant Karkare, the ATS Chief had become a “thorn”, that they had to remove. He had touched the tip of the iceberg. The un-earthing of TRUE FACTS (and not cooked-fiction) would have exposed RSS/BJP. Advani and Modi were complaining openly against Karkare. I guess., the primary task for RSS / BJP was to eliminate Karkare (which they successfully accomplished), and to add some “realism” to their dirty deed, as collateral they killed 200 innocent Mumbaikars, to confuse the Indian Nation and to bring in some “realism” into the script. Karkare was a threat to BJP/RSS. Just imagine. Elections are 4 months from now. If some startling relevations came in court – BJP’s true face would have been exposed. Now, the RSS/BJP can dump it all on Pakistan (indian muslims by default); solidify hindu vote bank (hate-bank, i.e.); and ride to electoral victory.
Whenever the BJP is in hot soup, there is a blast. Research the events of the past 10-20 years. How does one explain that. There cant be half-a-dozen co-incidences. RSS/BJP killed Karkare. It was targeted killing.That was their primary mission. To cloud it, they killed another 200 – so as to make it look like real mayhem. The truth, of course will never come out now. Hindu Terrorists like Sadhvi and serving military officer Purohit and another half a dozen criminals/terrorists, will be let scot free ! Case closed ! Victory for BJP assured in the next parliamentary elections.
Congratulations to BJP/RSS on the master-stroke. All is fair in politics, right Mr. Advani (including terrorist-strikes, i.e.).
December 3, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Here is another hate mail to me:
fromVishvas Ghosh
reply-tonvhab@yahoo.co.in
toJang- News
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:46 PM
subjectYasser Hamdanis article in News of 03.12.08
signed-byyahoo.co.in
hide details 4:46 PM (28 minutes ago) Reply
You wrote: „And let us, for once, learn to tell the truth.”
Are islam and honesty compatible? Islam enforces upon muslims the task of glorifying islam and justifying muslims under all circumstances. Muslim history-writing is a case of utter dishonesty. Could Pakistan have been obtained without slandering, vilifying and humiliating the hindus, hindu religions and the hindu ancestors (who are ancestors also of the Pakistanis)? Consequently Pakistan cannot be maintained without continuing this slander, humiliation etc.
Islam is a totalitarian and imperialist ideology of arab hegemony. Is that not a truth proved by the muslims themselves through their words and actions? If kuran contains contradictions (which explains why muslims are fighting among themselves) then how can it be a book from god? In fact the kuran has become an obstacle on the path towards creating an honest society. Islam has caused pakistanis to become bootlickers of arabs. Can you speak out these truths in Pakistan? Islam means submission means mental slavery under some 7th century arab tribal idelogy – that is not compatible with honesty. The honest among the muslims are disgusted with islam. They are despairing and feel that islam will ruin us all.
G.Vishvas
and this one is awesome.. subject : BAUSTERD
fromgurudutt tiwari
toyasser.hamdani@gmail.com
dateWed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:58 PM
subjectbausterd
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 3:58 PM (1 hour ago) Reply
whole world know how mean u and ur people are. You are all terrorist.
Reply Forward
December 3, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Apparently an admirer has quoted the “brickbats” against me in “Deccan Herald” …. especially Kuku’s comment, which I seconded myself in part…i.e. LeT and extremism should be hunted down in pakistan.
But the genius over at Deccan Herald has failed to quote anything from the article… he has however quoted Kuku’s comment that the article lacks “depth” and Simply61’s comment that the article is “shallow”.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion… but I strongly suggest that people here atleast endeavor to give a counter-argument instead of making and then quoting soundbytes and indulging in chest-thumping.
December 3, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Firstly I don’t think that any so called political party in India would execute such attacks in Bombay. They’re capable of planting bombs but can’t carry out such attacks which require months of training.
I’ve always believed that the BJP and anyone even remotely connected to them are the cause of anti-communal sentiment in India and the terrorism that has resulted from this sentiment for more than 15 yrs.
By no means are the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, MNS, LTTE etc. anything less than terrorists. These are all just off-shoots created by the BJP for them to carry out their dirty work without any fault being found with the BJP (although MNS & LTTE aren’t part of the BJP, they’re equally bad).
Could someone please tell me how the Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, or RSS differ from Al-Qaida, LeT or JeM. All of them target other communities; all of them thrust their ideas on the reluctant public by acts of violence. The only difference is that LeT will kill u with bombs and bullets whereas the Bajrang Dal uses sticks, rods and pitchforks. The end result is always the same…..innocent people being tortured, crippled or killed.
Coming back to the topic at hand, there is no doubt that terrorists use Pakistan as a launching ground for terrorist attacks, much to the dismay of the average Pakistani. I agree that war isn’t a solution, but how long can we go on like this. The Pakistani government has in the past been unwilling to crack down on them and even if they have the will, they lack the means.
I think the only solution is for Pakistan to allow India to help them, especially along the border in Pakistani territory. The Pakistani army should comb the entire border with the help of their Indian counterparts within Pakistani territory and destroy all these terror training camps. Along the border with Afghanistan they should do the same with U.S. forces and any other nationalities if required. This will allow the remaining Pakistani forces to concentrate on the interiors of Pakistan.
I know this sounds far fetched and that Pakistanis would be worried about these forces leaving Pakistan when asked to do so.
This is just a thought that occurred to a young engineer as he watched his beloved city and its citizens held to ransom by another group of misdirected youths (which is what I think they are).
This might not even be possible due to many reasons that someone like me can’t even think of. But if Pakistan really wants to prove to the world that its citizens are serious about ending this menace then even a hint of support for such an exercise would be a step in the right direction.
The citizens of the world are growing anxious day by day due to the yrs. of inaction by various Pakistani governments. God forbid the BJP and its cronies like Advani and Modi come to power, I wouldn’t put it past them to find an excuse to go to war with Pakistan.
What India needs now is for its citizens to stop greasing palms and to start exposing the corruption in the government, police etc. What India needs is a young politician like Rahul Gandhi from the Congress or for that matter any young member of the BJP. Someone who is not scared to stand up to the rest of his party, someone who isn’t intimidated by the senior party members, someone who can relate to the majority of the public and more importantly someone who we can relate to.
India is a country led by an age group that makes up about 25% of a over a billion people. We need fresh ideas, new laws, better equipment for our brave protectors, new training techniques and most importantly a new perspective on democracy, independence, secularism, politics, culture and life in general.
We blame our politicians for India’s current state of affairs, but remember, we elect them, we are them, they are us. If we want to change the system we have to be in the system. If you want something done, you have to do it yourself. We all want better, honest, selfless and patriotic politicians but how many of us are willing to stand for elections? How many of us are willing to be criticized by different sections of our vast population everyday for the rest of our lives.
People are saying that the current elections should be boycotted. Do you think the current politicians give a shit? Do you honestly think that anything is going to change by such a boycott? India can never become what you want it to become unless each and every citizen does his part. It can be something as small as not littering, not stealing or damaging public property, exposing corrupt officials, reducing pollution, or just helping a stranger with a heavy bag.
BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.
WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
December 4, 2008 at 6:32 am
i completely agree with the above post. there does not exist any difference between the terror of bomb and that of mob and the latter is perpetuated by the hindu extremists. m not underestimating their ability to orchestrate terror attcks but they are simply not in a position to conduct such a large scale one at the moment.
according to the detained terrorrist suspect, killing karkare and other high profile police officials was never a part of the plan, so i fail to see how it could have been a part of a larger conspiracy to finish off the former, the entire issue about specifically killing british and american tourists, letting off tourists belonging to a particular religion(if one is to accept the account of a turkish woman that was published in TOI a few days ago), targeting jews fits into the scheme of the global jehadi terror and hence i mantioned it, it could be proven wrong.
i really pity all those people who end up seriously considering the trash that is shown incessantly on such c grade news channels like india tv and star, as for cnn and ndtv, strong vies were expressed in favour of india maintaing a tough stand on the international front in various talkshows but no news anchor, even on former news channels, hurled any abuse at pakistan or pakistanis, calling them a bunch of idiots is another serious accusation if one takes into cognizance that these people risked their lives to cover the attcks which was sensationalized on certain news channels no doubt. moreover i dont know if some people deliberately chose to ignore that the main ire of the indian citizens was against the indian gov that was also subjected to a scathing attack by the indian media.
the indian gov. has maintained that atleast one of the terrorists is a pakistani, and thats bcoz he confessed himself though investigation is going on, and that there are fringe elemnts within pakistan who could be held responsible and not the governemnt or civilians, something that i categorically mentioned in my post, why are then some people so eager to jump at ill concieved conclusions and consider a bunch of hate mails sent by indian fruitcakes as the general opinion of the indians is beyond my understanding.
as for the pakistani media, i would like to know what its reaction would have been like if, god forbid, karachi had been under seige for three days, had innocents been mercilessly killed in the same manner and had a terrorist caught alive confessed that all the terrorists were indians and had recieved training at terrorist camps in india from a terror outfit notorious for having proclaimed themselves for a perpetual war aginst pakistan and terror attcks and had all the initial results of investigation pointed out to the involvement, partial maybe, of indian elements.
December 4, 2008 at 6:41 am
i completely agree with the above post. there does not exist any difference between the terror of bomb and that of mob and the latter is perpetuated by the hindu extremists. m not underestimating their ability to orchestrate terror attacks but they are simply not in a position to conduct such a large scale one at the moment.
according to the detained terrorrist suspect, killing karkare and other high profile police officials was never a part of the plan, so i fail to see how it could have been a part of a larger conspiracy to finish off the former, the entire issue about specifically killing british and american tourists, letting off tourists belonging to a particular religion(if one is to accept the account of a turkish woman that was published in TOI a few days ago), targeting jews fits into the scheme of the global jehadi terror and hence i mentioned it, it could be proven wrong.
i really pity all those people who end up seriously considering the trash that is shown incessantly on such c grade news channels like india tv and star, as for cnn and ndtv, strong vies were expressed in favour of india maintaing a tough stand on the international front in various talkshows but no news anchor, even on former news channels, hurled any abuse at pakistan or pakistanis, calling them a bunch of idiots is another serious accusation if one takes into cognizance that these people risked their lives to cover the attcks which was sensationalized on certain news channels no doubt. moreover i dont know if some people deliberately chose to ignore that the main ire of the indian citizens was against the indian gov that was also subjected to a scathing attack by the indian media.
the indian gov. has maintained that atleast one of the terrorists is a pakistani, and thats bcoz he confessed himself though investigation is going on, and that there are fringe elemnts within pakistan who could be held responsible and not the governemnt or civilians, something that i categorically mentioned in my post, why are then some people so eager to jump at ill concieved conclusions and consider a bunch of hate mails sent by indian fruitcakes as the general opinion of the indians is beyond my understanding.
as for the pakistani media, i would like to know what its reaction would have been like if, god forbid, karachi had been under seige for three days, had innocents been mercilessly killed in the same manner and had a terrorist caught alive confessed that all the terrorists were indians and had recieved training at terrorist camps in india from a terror outfit notorious for having proclaimed themselves at perpetual war aginst pakistan and had all the initial results of investigation pointed out at the involvement, partial maybe, of indian elements.
December 4, 2008 at 8:37 am
So the terrorist confessed to being from Pakistan according to some investigator… Why don’t you let the world see his confession and assess his accent?
People in the great metropolis of Faridkot are swearing that he is not from there.
December 4, 2008 at 8:47 am
Nikita:
“as for the pakistani media, i would like to know what its reaction would have been like if, god forbid, karachi had been under seige for three days, had innocents been mercilessly killed in the same manner and had a terrorist caught alive confessed that all the terrorists were indians and had recieved training at terrorist camps in india from a terror outfit notorious for having proclaimed themselves for a perpetual war aginst pakistan and terror attcks and had all the initial results of investigation pointed out to the involvement, partial maybe, of indian elements”.
In case it never occured to you Karachi IS UNDERSEIGE for the last one week and nobody knows who are the culprits, and yes we have a few Indian Terrorists in Pakistani Jails who have confessed,Sarabjeet Singh being one of them. Like all ressonable people we tried him and convicted him and even thought of letting him go back as a good will gesture. Did you hear pakistani media beating the war drum?
December 4, 2008 at 9:10 am
Darius Aga
A very inspiring and moving comment! having said that I only wish things could have been that simple.
December 4, 2008 at 9:23 am
YLH: Man you certainly can make people angry, no matter what you say:)
December 4, 2008 at 9:40 am
FYKI, here is Faridkot on the Pakistan map:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=faridkot+pakistan&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.875284,56.25&ie=UTF8&ll=31.147006,74.750977&spn=4.164551,7.03125&z=7&iwloc=addr
And here’s more info on the place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faridkot
December 4, 2008 at 10:01 am
You have no idea…. my email inbox is clogged after this piece was published in The News.
December 4, 2008 at 11:04 am
Darius,
I guess you are anti-BJP and I have no issues with that. But I have an issue when people falsify facts to make a point.
LTTE was not created by the Sangh Parivar, it was created by the Indira Gandhi government, daadi of the great Indian white hope Rahul Gandhi. (Of course what goes around comes around as you say and Madame and Rahul bhayya may agree)
MNS may have been craeted by the nephew of the SS supremo but has been propped up by the very INC you laud to cut into BJP-SS’s vote bank.
God forbid the BJP and its cronies like Advani and Modi come to power
You may not be aware of this but BJP has already been in power once and the only war that was fought in this period was forced by Pak invasion of Kargil.
Regards
December 4, 2008 at 4:35 pm
I was at the vigil held at Gateway yesterday and it was one of the most disillusioning moments of my life. A march that was supposed to be an intelligent, reformatory movement (on Ground Zero) became an anti-pak slur. There was no dignity in the way it was carried out. I have no issues with patriotism but the jingoism and rabble-rousing I witnessed there was distressing. I’m sure their hearts were in the right place but what they were espousing wasn’t. I guess i just expected better.
Which isn’t to say there weren’t people with rational arguments to make. There were few who were protesting how much politicians spend on themselves or a girl with a paper bullet proof vest. There were others arguing asking for a unified int agency that could be held accountable, and it was great to see school going kids mobilising people, I’m not sure i would have done that at their age. The problem was these voices were for the most part drowned out.
I walked past the Taj this morning, I only managed to get as far as tendulkars the previous evening, and saw it for the first time since the attack. I’ve never seen Gateway that empty or quiet. And i can’t imagine what Taj looks like on the inside but even at such a distance (a huge section is cordoned off to the public) i could see the damage done, the soot stained windows. My bhabhi told me about the bullet holes she saw at VT and the cops with their new-fangled arsenal. And i’m destroyed by what’s happened to my city.
I only hope that this blame game can stop and that we act not just as provincial citizens of a particular country but as citizens of the world.
I plan on continuing my protests even if they are in the form of petitions I sign or letters I write to my MP’s and MLA’s b/c at least i will always know that I’m trying. And short of running for elections i can only keep checking in on our politicians making sure they remember that they serve the public. I don’t think its right on our part to dissociate ourselves from our govt. b/c whether or not we voted them in we shouldn’t have waited for something like this to happen before we decided to take action. I think we too are culpable and in no small measure. Shaw said “democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.” I couldn’t agree more.
December 5, 2008 at 5:48 am
And so the never ending discussion ensues…
December 5, 2008 at 6:59 am
Mujamdar Sb: You sound like a card carrying member of the BJP!
December 5, 2008 at 7:15 am
Skeptic: That link for the map that you have provided is a joke, either you have no idea about the cartography and map reading(in other words you are an idiot) or you have a malfide intent of spreading disinformation.
FaridKot is in India here are longitude and latitudes of the place:
30degrees,39 minutes, 53.93 seconds NORTH
74 degrees, 45 minutes, 19.36 seconds EAST.
just put those in Google earth and it will take you to Faridkot, which falls between Firuzpur and Kot Kapura in India.
December 5, 2008 at 8:59 am
Abbasi sb,
You sound like a card carrying member of the BJP!
Unless Yasser mian’s theory is right, being a card carrying member of the BJP is less disturbing than someone who wants to re-establish the Khilafat.
Regards
December 5, 2008 at 9:18 am
Majumdar,
Just a clarification: I have not accused the entire BJP of anything my friend… my contention is that it might contain elements … these elements are most probably from RSS or Bajrang Dal or Modi-types…
I find many of the things BJP stands for perfectly reasonable… Good old Vajpayee didn’t strike me as a Hindu fanatic…
December 5, 2008 at 9:24 am
Yasser mian,
Thanks for the clarification.
Btw, I am quite shocked at LKA’s defence of Sadhvi et al. I am not saying that Sadhvi is defo guilty but dont think as the shadow PM, LKA shud have gone out on a limb. He should have left it to the courts and investigating agencies.
Regards
December 5, 2008 at 11:24 am
too much of blah , blah……media this, media that…
well …..i am from the media and its intresting to hear….?
media being beaten ……lol.
for showing like it is…..??
come on guys wake up at 9pm on 26th we all saw it happen minute by minute…..
the media guyd who were repoeting were confused, they did not know what was happenning.
the absoulute military precision in which the 3 days seige was carried out…..was the work of guys who have been under training…..
188 people shot dead individually…..the same kind of shootout on the border would have the countries crying war…
what peace??
they shot us on the roads?in hospitals?in hotel rooms?
even sick animals are shown mercy
now where do you want to be shot??
in your bathroom??
December 5, 2008 at 1:20 pm
So you saw it with your own eyes and knew it was Pakistanis who were behind this?
Seriously… get a life. Try and apprehend the terrorists who planned this… my guess is that they are closer to home than you think… And don’t you dare come near my bathroom… unless ofcourse you want to drown in pooh-water… which I guarantee you will!
December 5, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Mujamdar Sb:
Once again, you have no idea about the khilafat as a concept, to put the matter simply if you find Khilafat disturbing, the Indian constitution should also be abhorrant to you. Is that so sir?
Maulana Abul Kalam Azad,who was not only a brilliant scholar but also a pragmatic politician and who wrote an insightful book on the concept of Khilafat called (masalla-e-Khilafat) chose to side with a secular India and not with his fellow religionists who were using religion to forward their own agendas. Now i ask you this question, How,Maulana Azad who had a great insight in the Islamic History, Quran and Sunnah, whose commentaries on the Quran are still rated as Magnum Opus, can side with Gandhi,Nehru and Patel and secular India if the idea of Khilafat is reactionary religiosity?
December 5, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Tenaz:
Who told you that random shootings on the roadside, or holding hostages in a hotel needs military precision, hell i can count a dozen hollywood movies which are about criminals doing stuff like that. There is one even from Bollywood called Lakandwalla or something. all you need for such action is a lot of hate, and by god India has enough hate fields to grow terrorism.
So you are from the media eh? No doubt the media is talking the way its talking!
December 6, 2008 at 11:40 pm
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/57251.html
Mr Yasser Hamdani, lick this up now.
Pakistani villagers confirm it’s the home of Mumbai killer
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By Saeed Shah | McClatchy Newspapers
FARIDKOT, near Depalpur, Pakistan — The lone gunman captured alive by Indian police during last week’s terrorist attack on Mumbai comes from a dirt-poor village in Pakistan’s southern Punjab region where a banned Islamist group has been actively recruiting young men for “jihad,” according to residents of the village and official records seen by McClatchy Newspapers.
Ajmal Ameer Kasab, the dark haired 21-year-old man arrested by Indian authorities in the first hours of the assault — in which over 170 people died — left the village four years ago, several residents said. He would return once a year to see small family home and one villager recalled him talking about freeing the Muslim-dominated region of Kashmir from India.
His origins are a key to the investigation of the attack and could have a profound impact on relations between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan, already at the brink of confrontation. Until now, the Pakistan government has repeatedly said that there was no solid evidence to back Indian accusations that the gunmen came from Pakistan.
A McClatchy reporter visited the village three times in four days and obtained official electoral records, which showed that Ajmal’s parents, as named by the Indian authorities, indeed reside in the village.
At the time of the first visit on Wednesday, there was no sign of Pakistan plainclothes police. But village mayor, Ghulam Mustafa Wattoo, confirmed that a man named Ameer lives in Faridkot, with a son named Ajmal. But he said Ameer claimed his son was not the man captured by Indian authorities.
But everything in the village fit the details leaked from the Indian police interrogation of Ajmal. Indian police identified the father as Mohammad Ameer, who earns a meager living selling home-made snacks from a mobile cart, and his wife as Noor. At the tiny family house, located on a narrow street deep inside Faridkot, the McClatlchy reporter on a second visit Friday noted a mobile food cart lying in the courtyard.
Ameer, 44 and his wife, Noor, 47, were nowhere to be found. According to several villagers, who asked not to be named for their own security, “a bearded mullah” took them away during the night, likely, they thought, to be a member of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Islamic extremist group accusing of being behind the Mumbai attack.
Wattoo led the visiting reporter to Ameer’s house, where an elderly man named Sultan and a mid-aged woman named Miraj, who identified themselves as relatives, said the occupants had gone away “for a wedding.”
But they gave inconsistent and changing stories, sometimes confirming that Ameer lives there, at other times denying it. The mayor, too, had attempted to delay the visit of a McClatchy reporter to the house Friday and changed his story at times. As a result of the delay, plainclothes Pakistani security officials got to the house before the reporter, and they appeared to have coached the occupants to throw visitors off the trail.
A villager, who asked not to be named for his own safety, told McClatchy: “These people are telling you lies. We know that boy (caught in Mumbai) is from Faridkot. We knew from the first night (of the attack).”
Shown a picture of Ajmal, he confirmed it was the young man from the village.
“They brainwash our youth about jihad, there are people who do it in this village. They tell them they’ll get a ticket to heaven. It is so wrong,” the villager added.
Another resident said separately that he recognized the face in the photograph, though he later changed his mind when other villagers crowded around.
“He (Ameer) has lived here for a few years,” said villager Mohammad Taj, an agriculturalist, who thought his age was around 50. “He has three sons and three daughters.”
Noor Ahmed, 45, a local farmer said: “He (Ameer) had a stall he pushed around, sometimes here, sometimes elsewhere. He was a meek man, he hasn’t particularly religious. He just made ends meet and didn’t quarrel with anyone.”
Residents said that Faridkot and the surrounding area, including a nearby village called Tara Singh, are a hotbed for recruitment for Lashkar-e-Taiba.
The nazim or mayor of Tara Singh, Rao Zaeem Haider, said: “There is a religious trend here. Some go for jihad but not too many.”
Ajmal, who had little or no schooling, has been gone from Faridkot for about four years but would return to see his family once a year, said several locals. One said he would talk about freeing the Kashmir region from Indian rule when he returned, – the main aim of Lashkar-e-Taiba.
There are several Faridkots in Pakistan and one in India, and McClatchy’s weeklong search for the home village of the captured suspect was complicated by incorrect details of the location published in the Indian news media.
The Faridkot from which Ajmal came is near the town of Depalpur, in the Okara district in southern Punjab
Many residents and local plainclothes police now appear to be trying to cover up Ajmal’s connection with the village. By Saturday, the atmosphere turned hostile, and several reporters who went to Fardikot were roughed up, witnesses said by phone.
Faridkot mayor Wattoo at first denied the village was home to Ajmal Ameer Kasab. “There is a man here called Ameer, he pushed a snack cart around. He came to see me because he was very worried about reports on the news about an Ajmal from Faridkot being caught. But he told me that the boy they caught is not his Ajmal,” Wattoo said.
Wattoo had also said there had been no local police investigation of whether Ajmal came from this Faridkot. At another village called Faridkot, near a town called Khanewal, also visited by McClatchy, there had been marked police and intelligence presence.
McClatchy obtained the official electoral records for Faridkot, which falls under union council number 5, tehsil (area) Depalpur, district Okara. The list of 478 registered voters shows a Mohammad Ameer, married to Noor Elahi, living in Faridkot. McClatchy has the national identity card numbers for both husband and wife.
Residents said that the family belonged to a clan of butchers, for which the local word is Kasab or Kasai. There is no tradition of surnames in rural Pakistan, and individuals take the names of their profession or tribe. Ajmal told Indian police his surname is Kasab, according to news reports.
Faridkot is dirt-poor with a remote feel, despite being close to a town. Most people have little education and live in poverty. On the side of a building, just outside Faridkot, graffiti in large lettering says, in Urdu, “Go for jihad. Go for jihad. Markaz Dawat ul-Irshad”. MDI is the parent organization of Lashkar-e-Taiba. In nearby Depalpur, there is a banner on the side of the main street that asks people to devote goat skins to Jamaat ud Dawa, another MDI offshoot.
Hafiz Saeed, founder of Lashkar-e-Taiba, had visited the nearby town of Depalpur to give speeches, where there were “hundreds” of supporters, locals said. There was a Lashkar-e-Taiba office in Depalpur but that was hurriedly closed in the last few days, they said. The Lashkar-e-Taiba newspaper is distributed in Depalpur and Faridkot. The area lies in the south of Punjab province, an economically backward area long known for producing jihadists.
(Shah is a McClatchy special correspondent)
December 7, 2008 at 4:19 am
I see that this discussion has veered in quite a few directions. I am a Pakistani-Canadian, and I have followed Yasir’s commentaries over the last few years. I am fairly new to Pak Tea House, and here are a few of my comments:
1) Yasir, I respect the fact that you have been blunt in shaking Pakistanis out of the attitude that is a strange mix of self-righteousness, and all-ganged-against-us victim mentality. Our country was born out of a violent cataclysm sixty years ago, and still seems at loss to find exactly what it stands for. We stood to defy India as prime enemy, only to find out that our strategy spawned the fanatic entities that have come back to bite us hard. Our idenity crisis may partially explain our benevolent attitude towards right-wing entities that do operate out of Pakistani soil, and seek to fight the infidels all across the world.
2) The concipary theorists run abound in our country, and many of them still blame all the terrorism in the world to RAW-CIA-MOSSAD, pick-as-you-deem plausible versions. I am however disappointed in seeing you falling outright for a Hindu right wing conspiracy version.
There are disturbing precedents that point towards groups that operate out of Pakistani soil that have avowed Jihad against India, and have trained men previously to execute the similar missions in Indian-held Kashmir, as well as New Delhi. There were at least 10 men who seemed to be executing a suicide mission. Suicide missions like these against India have been a hallmark of Islamic terrorism. While we have examples of Samjhota Express bombings that are being blamed on Hindu right-wing, these episodes seem to be exceptions. Suicide missions are solely a property of Muslim extremists these days, with possible exceptions of Tamil Tigers. Some of the accounts have told of Muslim couple being let go after recitation from Quran. The savagery against Jews in Nariman House, and the willingness to die fighting points to ideological fanaticism that puts suspicions on Islamic militancy.
3) I have followed mainstream print media in India (Rediff, The Hindu, Indian Express) and Pakistan (The News, Dawn, Jang). I have found Pakistani media to be sympathetic to the senseless murders in Mumbai, and a lot more reasonable compared to their Indian counterparts that have been quite belligerent. However, I am not sure how the Pakistani media would have reacted if 10 young men run amok in the streets of Karachi or Lahore, senselessly killing everyone that comes their way, and there is some evidence that they came from India and were trained there. I have a feeling that Pakistanis media would have been acting the same way Indians are acting right now.
Regards,
Adnann
December 7, 2008 at 5:02 pm
“Lick this up now”
My article contains merely a speculation and nothing else.
If I will find evidence to the contrary and if the story above is proven true, I will write a follow up article and call the Islamo-fascists for what they are – as I have been for years.
Adnann,
Thanks for your post. The Hindu right wing has been involved in incidents of late and therefore I don’t see why my speculation is so surprising.
Still I am willing to revise it and I will as soon as I am convinced.
December 7, 2008 at 6:19 pm
YLH,
“My article contains merely a speculation and nothing else.”
That says a lot about you? does not it?
December 7, 2008 at 6:25 pm
another thing, that means you will write an article based on speculation and no real facts. For what? to rub it on hindu faces? or to make you feel at home with jihadi crowds around you? why could you not wait another week for the information to settle down, and then write a thoughtful and fact based commentary?
December 8, 2008 at 11:44 am
Dear friend
I am an INDIAN and i will try to react to some of the points raised in your letter.
First of all I will leave the questions about PAKISTANI involvement in MUMBAI(BOMBAY, AS YOU WISH) blasts for the time being.I think more and more evidence is emerging on that front as all of you can find out from pakistani,indian or international media.we will leave it there.
Virtually all the blogs from pakistan which i have reads mention SAMJAHUTHA and MALEGEON blasts.All of them automatically assumes INDIA has blamed PAK for these attacks.Now my friend as far as I know these attacks were never raised in any DIPLOMATIC MEETINGS with pakistan,no demarche were issued or anything of the kind.What you are probably alluding is to some low level police officers making some comment and this get hyped in a news-story starved media.Infact as u people myt be aware there were a series of blasts in major indian cities over the past 2 years and home grown terrorism was rightly blamed for all of that.And just to raise one more point I hope you knows where the Lt.Col Purohit and that sadhvi is now.It shows the strength of our system however flawed it might be.
Now let me make two or three points concerning INDIA.One is the explosion of news channels in INDIA and there frank immaturity as far as reporting is concerned.I think it is true for media world wide.Personally the only national news channel I sometime watch is CNN-IBN and may be NDTV at times.HEADLINES TODAY is probably the worst as far as news reporting is concerned by a big margin.These media cater only to the English speaking upper middle class of cities.Dont assume that these media represents the sentiments of general indian public on all issues.There is a very vibrant regional media in all states which are much more sensible and sensitive to concerns of the people.If you want sensible reports from india better log on to http://www.hindu.com.It is easily the best news paper in INDIA although a little bit to the left politically.
2nd point ,many pakistanis assume that the anger at Mumbai blasts were directed only against you people.Nothing can be farther from the truth.If u had heard some of the things the indian media and public said about her politicians you would have understood that pakistan came a very distant second
3rdly dont ever assume that we are obsessed with pakistan or are unaware of our own problems.To be frank till the recent blasts pakistan was the last thing that was on the mind of average INDIAN.It was inflation ,price rise and economic slowdown.Probably home grown terrrorism was another important thing which worried us.And dont asuume we are not ashamed about Gujarath carnage.It was a collossal failure of our system.People killing each other in the name of religion is a legacy south asia has inherited.But state colluding with mass murder is unpardonable.
But however flawed our democracy is,we still feel it is the best system of rule.And nothing will shake our belief in it.Mumbai blasts will only make more people come out and vote for what they believe in.
Some thing else u should understand about INDIA is we certainly have somany fringe elements.U often talk about bajrang dal,mns,other right wing elements,left wing naxalites,the various groups of north east,muslm extremism-simi,indian mujahuddin and the like..They are all a part of india.No one denies there existence,no one underestimates the threats these groups pose to the idea of SECULAR INDIA.But they essentially remain as what they are ,fringe groups …that is all they can become.Idont know how many pakistanis can honestly saw extremism and fundementalism are only fringe elements in there society.
Personally i believe the biggest loss in the past decade was KARGIL.After lahore everybody believed that a solution is imminent.Vajpayee was one man who could have carried INDIA along with him to a proper settlement.Alas…..No point in crying over split milk ……
I would like some sensible pak opinion regarding what might happen if India attacks camps in PoK.I dont think they are imminent but at the same time I dont rule it out entirely
December 10, 2008 at 7:57 am
Majumdar,
“But I have an issue when people falsify facts to make a point.
LTTE was not created by the Sangh Parivar, it was created by the Indira Gandhi government”
If u read my post carefully u will see that I have mentioned in brackets that although the LTTE & MNS weren’t created by the BJP,they’re equally bad.
“MNS may have been craeted by the nephew of the SS supremo but has been propped up by the very INC you laud to cut into BJP-SS’s vote bank.”
I admit that the INC has failed to rope in the MNS. Believe me,living in Bombay my entire life, I’m dissappointed and even more so frustrated that every single government (be it BJP or INC) has failed to rope in the Shiv Sena and now the MNS as well. The only reason I can think of is that neither govt. wants to alienate the large Maharashtrian vote bank.
“You may not be aware of this but BJP has already been in power once and the only war that was fought in this period was forced by Pak invasion of Kargil.”
Ofcourse I know that the BJP was in power….how daft do u think I am??
What I meant was God help us if they come to power AGAIN.If that were to happen it would be open season on Christians in Orissa, Muslims in general and couples holding hands on the beach or cuddling in a park.
They try to thrust their ideas of what they think is right onto everyone else.If I wanted to live in such a society I would go to Iraq or Saudi Arabia.
December 10, 2008 at 8:06 am
Darius,
What I meant was God help us if they come to power AGAIN.If that were to happen it would be open season on Christians in Orissa, Muslims in general and couples holding hands on the beach or cuddling in a park.
Such karnameys are carried out by state govts, not by Central Govt. BJP and allies are already in a power in a number of states, they being in power in Centre wouldnt matter UNLESS they chose to give an open rein to the likes of Abhinav Bharat and Bajrang Dal.
Besides dont forget that a BJP govt in centre would necessarily require a large number of allies including most certainly the BSP. They will never allow BJP a free rein.
Also being in govt brings responsibility. Remember that there were bomb blasts in Jaipur and A’bad (both BJP ruled) but no retaliation against Muslims unlike Gujarat 2002.
A BJP govt in Delhi will be no different from lets say a PML-N govt in Pakistan.
Regards
December 11, 2008 at 12:35 pm
It is not surprising that Indians would blame Pakistan for the all the bomb blasts that happen here, and Pakistanis likewise for all the bomb blasts there, even though some of blasts surely had their origins and actors within the respective countries. The intelligence agencies of the two countries are happy to exploit the possibilities that the internal situations in the two countries offer. India offers more such than Pakistan does.
Bombs have been going off for a long time in India. In Assam and the Northeast, Punjab, Delhi and Kashmir. In recent years in other places like the Bombay trains blasts.
Despite the poor quality of Indian News Channels, they never lose the chance of a good expose, which is why the ‘Hindu terrorists’ plot became known and we can suspect their role in some blasts. But not all.
No one seriously doubts that India’s agencies must be involved in a tit for tat fashion in Baluchistan, the Shia Sunni quarrels, or the Mohajir disputes with everyone else. Some Pakistani’s go so far in the blogs to even accuse Baitullah Mehsud of being an Indian agent.
Similarly the Pakistani hand gets suspected here in India and not without reason. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the recently discovered Abhinav
Bharat group Pakistan cannot absolve itself from Indian blasts.
Pakistan’s denial of India’s accusations are automatic and without thought.
There is now sufficient evidence of not only which of the many Faridkots the surviving terrorist came from, the ID number of his father and mother are now available from the record. BBC World was quick to deny that the Faridkot its correspondent visited was the one from which the surviving terrorist came but blacked out the news of the authentic Faridkot’s discovery.
The Bombay attack was the work of lunatics, but clearly these lunatics are cultivated and protected in Pakistan. They may be non state actors as the Pakistani President says but they are supported by the Pakistani defence and security establishment. They may have Pakistan as a target as much as they have India but the Pakistani establishment seems quite able to live with the idea.
The question of proof keeps cropping. Proof is always built up; from the evidence at site, the circumstances of the case and the interrogation of the accused. Proof does not spring full blown from the scene of the crime, it is a painstaking and laborious process to build proof from the evidence and from the interrogative process. If Pakistan is not prepared to allow interrogation of the suspects a complete case can never be made.
What proof is required one may ask in the case of someone like the Jaish e Mohammadi Chief and the murderer of Daniel Pearl, Omar Sheikh. If the hijacking of the Indian plane to Kandahar was a crime why did Pakistan as a responsible law abiding state allow the two to gain entry to Pakistan from Kandahar? If they slipped in through a porous border why were they not arrested once they surfaced and handed back to India? They were being held in India for genuine crimes. No proof was required in their case. Masood Azhar in fact created the Jaish on his return to Pakistan from Kandahar. It is well known that the five foreigners kidnapped from Kashmir and later killed were held hostage only to secure the release of these two along with two others including Zargar, the only Kashmiri in the group? Did the Pakistani state have no moral obligation to act in this case. By not acting against them are they not supporting terror. The Pakistan state was clearly not providing only moral support. It was a key player in the processes that lead to Azhar and Sheikh coming to India. These two were not Kashmiris Omar Sheikh was first arrested in Delhi in a kidnapping. On their return they were encouraged to operate. If India could have got its hands on them again it would have revealed who in Pakistan was their patron.
Lt. Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi former Head of the ISI told Pakistan’s Parliament in March of 04 that Pakistan should not be afraid to admit that Jaish-e-Mohammad was involved in the deaths of thousands of innocent Kashmiris, the bombing of Indian Parliament, Daniel Pearl’s murder and the the attempt to assasinate President Musharraf. How could this non state actor continue to avoid arrest and live as a free citizen.
Hafiz Sayeed has long made speeches proclaiming his intentions of leading crusades into India to conquer the whoe country. The attacks in India are proof that this is not just bombast.
India’s alleged policies in Kashmir or its alleged mistreatment of minorities are not the pretext that these terrorists like Hafiz Sayeed and Masood Azhar need . They promote an hate-filled violent ideology that some sections of the Pakistani establishment believe can promote Pakistan’s interests.
What are all those training camps for? After all if Pakistan is not sending fighters to Kashmir anymore, nor fighting a jihad in Afghanistan what is the purpose of allowing the training of private armies?
Every decent Indian will stand with his Pakistan counterpart to criticize the killing of innocents in bomb blasts, especially where state actors are involved. How about doing the same for non state actors. Dawood Ibrahim is an Indian, or was. How does he and his extended family find protection in Karachi.
December 12, 2008 at 9:51 am
“I have been watching your news channels- what they are doing is sick and disgusting. They are accusing Pakistan without any real evidence or proof. One of the militants supposedly “confessed” to being from “Faridkot” in Pakistan. Perhaps you would like to show me where Faridkot is on the Pakistani map because till I heard it on Indian media I was not aware of this great factory of Jehadi terrorists in the land of the pure and despite several attempts I haven’t been able to locate it on the map of Pakistan.”
YLH this is what you wrote in the immediate aftermath of the Mumbai attacks……well since then Faridkot(actually more than one) has been located in Pakistan(maybe you don’t know about each and every village of Pakistan as I do not know about every Indian vilage) and father of the captured terrorist has admitted to a Pakistani newspaper that the guy in Indian custody is his son.I wonder what you would like to say now……inspite of all the stuff Soviets and the USA did or did not do to Pakistan, there exists the reality of home grown terrorism in Pakistan too and I hope you will not continue to raise the bogey of Hindo terrorists in this case.
December 12, 2008 at 11:06 am
Simply 61,
My point about Faridkot being an obscure village was not a denial of the existence of such a place. However, now that enough credible evidence has come up of these terrorists being from Pakistan, I am glad that the Pakistani govt has taken strong action against these terrorists…
Those who know me, know that I have fought against Jamaat-ud-dawa longer than anyone else here… I first came across them when I had their “collection camp” removed from my locality for inciting hatred against your country in 2002-2003 … at the height of tensions between Pakistan and India…
Therefore it gives me great pleasure to see these bastards being taken to task… like RW said above, they should’ve been crushed regardless of whether they were involved in Mumbai…
Similarly the “bogey” of Hindu terrorists hints at denial at your end of a violent string that does exist (as in the case of Samjhauta) who must be crushed regardless of this current incident.
December 12, 2008 at 11:20 am
KuKu… not rw…
December 12, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Terrorism is a major challenge Humanity; Let it be any nationals / Religion but the roots of terror has to be eliminated.
Request people to make a correct judgment call based on your personal level of investigations/ knowledge about the recent Mumbai Incident. Don’t you see there are some external elements involvements to this.
The Pak leadership is trying to mislead the people feeding the anti-Indian emotions. Am surprised by the blind denial happening in with my neighboring people. Some of them are going to the extent of writing that this is a drama staged by Indian intelligence.
Please look at the emerging people movement in India, the Political leadership is scared , the people of India are open with their expressions of Anger. Its not against any country or religion but against some of the sources which has disturbed their lives. Like which I request all the nationals to take their personal views, based on a correct judgment which will ensue their Political leadership working on a correct agenda.
I hail from a place where Wasim Akram’s Cricket team responded with a Lap of honor to our appreciation of their sport and which helped to make a everlasting love for him.
It’s the people who should express their correct expressions and set their political leader to work on the same instead of the otherwise which is happening now.
Its happening now in India & I love to see this spreading across Pakistan too to fight against the enemies of Growth.
December 12, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Hey all,
Whats your comment about the Dawns report on Kasab’s Father claims.
If an entire village is keeping quiet for a week, knowing the truth , I am not surprised why the entire PAK people are just denying ( you know it all)
Please value the human lives…..
December 12, 2008 at 8:52 pm
The Kasab report came from Dawn….isn’t that Pakistani?
Now you’ve asked a question which I have answered atleast three times already. I barely hinted at the possibility of Hindu nationalist groups (and there were many in India who did so as well after Samjhauta)…the speculation was wrong… in this case. I have admitted it and I am glad the Govt of Pakistan is moving so swiftly against terror.
December 13, 2008 at 4:05 am
Glad to note that you see the point.YLH your credibilty was never at question.Only in this particular case your article seemed too hastily composed and prematurely definitive in its view.
Anyway this is just the view of someone who has otherwise enjoyed reading your posts.
Hindu terrorism as the media now loves to call it does not exist as a pan-India or a global organised ideology and thought system.This does not mean that Malegaon did not occur.It did and the investigations,most likely, will find the accused guilty and they will be punished.The investigations implicating that sadhvi and others are not denied by most Indians.The protest was all about how the office of the ATS was being manipulated by the ruling party just before elections to build an anti BJP wave.Well they need not have bothered.Our election results speak of our democratic traditions.There was no BJP wave.The voters voted as though Mumbai attacks had not taken place.BJP got voted in where it had done some good work and got booted out where it had made a hash of governance.New Delhi,the heart of the government, also did not boot out Congress in a knee jerk reaction to the attacks.
Not all is prfect in India but it is hugely different from Pakistan in most things due to what has happened in the two countries in the last 60 years.We have evolved differently and hence automatic equations do injustice to both sides.
December 13, 2008 at 4:14 am
Also YLH Samjhauta blasts are not attributed to the Malegaon blast accused.That statement was retracted by the ATS office the very next day.When those blasts happened your country was given details of the blasts,the nature of explosives and the groups suspected.It was explicitly said that RDX was not used.
Then came that attempt to link the accused colonel to the train blasts.We in India need to figure out for ourselves if our govt lied to your country and Bangladesh at the time of the initial investigations and gave false evidence or whether it was lying now when it tried to build a case of a pan India Hindu conspiracy by linking Malegaon blast to Samjhauta Express one in order to build an anti BJP plank.The man who was incharge of the investigations,Hemant Karkare, has now fallen to the terrorists bullets in Mumbai but before he died the office had retracted the Samjhauta bit of news.Will keep you updated on the developments vis a vis this part of the case as and when news come out.Someone lied at some point.We have to figure out who and when.
December 13, 2008 at 8:42 am
Sure all of you will agree to me that, if both India and Pakistan focuses its own businesses and prioritizes their developmental initiatives, it will be good for their future.
How does it benefit a common citizen if their neighbor’s growth is positive or negative.
How de we look at Singapore or a Dubai , may be with a bit of envy but definitely should not be with a vengeance.
Since Independence, for time and again the political/spiritual leadership fed wrong seeds and vested interests for some of their own benefits. Its common reaction in both of us that we get nationally united and get the anger against the other.
Lets take a resolve now
To Make a correct judgment and voice our views loud and clear.
Not allowing the political and spiritual leads or the media to influence us.
By this way we can make the leadership to be focused on the priorities of the Nation rather than their diverting tactics.
In India we don’t get carried away by our leadership statements on the WAR but we made them work on the priority aftermath agendas. We silenced the Raj Thackeray’s and marked a full stop any separatism tactics. Look forward for more and more united loud voices from our nationals to ensure the Government systems accountable.
Similarly we request the Pakistan common public to look in to their Internal Priorities and voice loud, ensuring their leadership is doing right things for the future of Pakistan.
Please introspect yourself and make right judgment calls.
Let there be value based stands and leadership in future for both of us
& Lets act now.
December 15, 2008 at 3:10 pm
YLH have a look at this please and then call Pakistani media reasonable.I think both sides have the balanced and the unhinged types and I am posting this because I felt you were calling NDTV a bad egg (incidentally that channel is called Pakistani hugger(jhappi) here in india)so what would you call the stuff on this link?